JRobin31 (NA)
: When you say not fun to play 'anymore' it suggests that they were fun to play at one point. Was it the champion that changed, or you? Viable in bot lane is not the same as oppressive at all. Viable in bot lane suggests they are in a good place. Their kits are 'simple and similar'? I think this is just a false statement. How is Soraka like Sona like Janna? They aren't. Or do you mean they are all 'enchanters'? Saying enchanters are similar to each other because they are enchanters is redundant. You say enchanters in other MOBAs are more fun to play. That's fine, but I don't know what that means: 'more fun', 'more complex'... what does this mean exactly? Do you mean we need more Champions where you have to read their kit five times to understand? I'm not a fan of that sort of thing and I wouldn't be happy seeing that happen in a new enchanter (or any champion) release or rework. I think you need to make your desires more clear. What exactly is it you want? You need to better describe that. Words like 'fun' or 'simple' or 'complex' aren't sufficient; it just seems like the 'problem' with enchanters is an illusory one; the 'problem' with enchanters lacks a coherent description. And RIOT's fix for the 'problem' is what ??? some random change and hopefully it solves the 'problem'? Maybe a place to start would be to describe an enchanter that you think is fun or would be fun to play. What is that enchanter doing that makes her fun to play?
To make it complex is by adding interactions between the spells or in other words have combos. Lulu for example you can polymorph someone and when she auto attacks a polymorph target it extends the duration for another 0.5s For Janna if she knocks up a target with her Q, the ally, with a shield, auto attacks will then slow the target by a certain percentage for certain seconds. When it comes to utility mages (enchanter) we lack the damage and the defense so the excitement comes by bringing utility that has an impact. If you can bring the utility in a combo sort of way it can make the champion a lot more exciting to play, in my opinion. There is a utility mage, Angela, in a mobile moba game called mobile legend: Bang Bang. Her ult is like the coolest thing. First it act like a shen ult by giving a big shield and teleport to the target anywhere on the map for certain second. Than the two target become one. The ally control the movement, but you can control your spells. She can heal an ally with her first ability while binded, but also do damage to enemies. She gets a speed boost when she uses a skill due to her passive. This speed boost can be given to her binded ally. This is an example of interaction between spells. Lulu and soraka have that with E and Q for Lulu. For soraka giving bonus health regeneration to an ally when she heals, after she hits a target with her Q. In my opinion they need more.
Chermorg (NA)
: Copying stats and providing three sentences of heavy opinion is not “proof”. This is your formal warning that further attempts to present your opinion as fact without **justification** (not just copying) via evidence/statistics will result in removal of your comments from this thread. I don’t want you to think your opinion is not valid - but you provide your opinion after statistics in a very short manner without any connection to the rest of the thread. I encourage you to provide more context as to why your evidence relates to this thread (and maybe do so in another “top level” i.e. initial reply to the OP).
Number 1 changes riot comment: "When we made our 2014 Season changes to supports, we wanted to make them feel good about buying AP items. For most supports we gave them forms of additional utility with smaller gains in damage, but Lulu ended up getting a lot in both categories. We actually like mid Lulu, but want to make sure that the reasons for choosing her weren't due to her low-interaction (and high-obnoxiousness) lane harass pattern where she can get instant damage with Help, Pix! before following it up with two high-powered guaranteed Glitterlances. Choosing Lulu as a solo mage champion over being a duo-lane support should come with strategic tradeoffs, but many players were choosing her regardless of team composition or enemy matchups. Ultimately we had to hit some of Lulu's high offensive power, but we're also committed to ensuring this doesn't have a huge impact on support Lulu (who actually comes with tradeoffs like no guaranteed farm or gold generation), so we'll look at ways to help support Lulu if she comes out too weak because of these changes. Comment: They clearly said these nerfs are for solo lane lulu in mid lane. Number 2 changes riot comment: "We initially thought solo lane Lulu was a unique addition to the game, so we wanted to let her stay a viable pick in both solo and duo lanes. That said, top lane Lulu is currently shutting down a lot of diversity in competitive play and, because Lulu's solo lane and support power are tied so closely together, we had to go for changes that reduce her oppressive strengths first. As an aside, we know this isn't a great situation where we keep indirectly reducing support Lulu's power to maintain her viability as a mage, so this is something we'll have to really consider for the future" Comment: They clearly said these nerfs are for solo lulu top lane Number 3 changes Comment: Was on a forum post by a riot employee. In this post he was talking about how to tone down solo lane lulu. She was constantly being played in the pro scene. This happen two years ago. I am not spending my life searching for it. Number 4 changes riot comment: "Historically, our previous changes to nerf solo Lulu for her competitive viability led to her support play being underwhelming. The problem lies in the fact that both mid and support Lulu value the same things: decent waveclear while enhancing and protecting allies. To be clear, we don’t want to eliminate solo lane Lulu. Players finding novel ways to explore the strengths of champions is part of what makes League of Legends great. That being said, support Lulu deserves some love as well. We’re directly enhancing what makes her a worthwhile support pick but at the same time making sure these buffs don’t spill into top and mid unchecked. This way, Lulu offers reasonable value wherever she goes" Comment: Here they buff support lulu at the same time nerfing solo lane lulu in top and mid lane Number 5 changes riot comment "Lulu’s become the pick when you want someone with a bit of everything - Aggression? She has it. Protection? She has it. The problem gets real when the Fae Sorceress becomes the best option in both cases, outshining the rest of the enchantress club. We’re leaving Lulu’s poke and trade potential intact, but softening her durability so opponents can better punish missteps and poorly-chosen trades." Comment A Riot employee said this in a forum post these changes was to specifically hurt solo lane lulu more than support. It happened 1 year ago I am not going to waste my life searching for it. Happy???
Chermorg (NA)
: I’m going to pop in here and say that things such as screaming, excessive emphasis, passive (and even active) aggressiveness, and hyperbole are not things that we’re going to support on this board. You obviously have a very charged opinion on the subject, and we welcome that, but please back your opinions up with evidence and refrain from getting worked up. To be extra clear, this is a warning that this sort of response will likely be deleted or edited for content in the future, but is being given leniency due to the new nature of the board.
Here is your proof: When Lulu started being strong in solo lane. This are changes they did to Lulu: Number 1: Help, Pix! Base damage reduced to 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 from 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280. True sight duration reduced to 4 seconds from 6. REMOVED: No longer shields minions, but can still be targeted. Comment They reduced the damage by 80 (was a lot because support don't build a lot of Ap) The duration was a huge change because you use to be able to do double Q after you help pix someone. It was useful because it really help your adc kill someone. But solo lane was abusing it so they got rid of it. Shielding minion was useful as it prevented enemy adc from last hitting. But, solo lane was abusing it. Number 2: Glitterlance REMOVED: Slow decay no scales with AP ratio. Whimsy Bonus movement speed duration reduced to 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 seconds from 5 at all ranks. Comment Lulu use to have a slow decay that scale with AP. It was really helpful for support, but solo Lulu was getting AP faster than support causing them to abuse it really hard. So they removed it. The 5 seconds duration was also being abused by solo lane lulu so they made it scale. Number 3: Whimsy AP ratio reduced to (+ 5% per 100 AP) from (+ 10% per 100 AP) Bonus movement speed duration reduced to 3 / 3.25 / 3.5 / 3.75 / 4 seconds from 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 Comment The reduced the speed boost scaling because solo lane lulu was able to get more AP compare to support lane lulu so they reduce the scaling. They also decrease the duration by 1 second due to solo lane lulu. Number 4: Glitterlance NEW EFFECT: Bolt damage is reduced to 70% for enemies beyond the first. This was the biggest change that hit solo lane lulu the most. As it really hurt the farming potential solo lane lulu a lot. It also reduce the amount of people that play solo lane lulu. Number 5 Stats Health growth reduced to 74 from 82. Base health reduced to 525 from 552.76. Help, Pix! Shield strength reduced to 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 from 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240. They reduce her health regen and base health so that she is more squishy in solo lane. To top it off they remove 30 base stat on shield. So clearly this Riot employee is lying when he said: > Though in some cases like lulu they can work pretty well It did not work well because they had to to nerf her a lot in order to keep her balance in solo lane. In other words in order to make her viable in both lane they had to destroy the enjoyment of playing Lulu. A lot of new Lulu players don't know this but she use to be way more fun then what she is now.
JRobin31 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=GIWBugod,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-22T07:24:16.748+0000) > > Well, you guys made a whole new sub-forum dedicated to higher quality posts Props to everyone who worked to make this new sub-forum. I am really happy about this addition. > **Enchanter game play is extremely uninspired:** I think this is simply not a sufficient reason for a rework. This shouldn't be the first point in whatever objections you have to these champions. Champion with simple kits / low-skill kits have place in the game. RIOT even advertises the fact that not every champion requires you to be a mechanical god to have fun playing the game. And since there are players who have fun playing these champions, your opinion that they are uninspired is exactly that: an opinion. > **Their kits are also lazily designed on the balance spectrum:** So lets look at a few of them Whoa! Lazily designed on the balance spectrum?!? These champions have been through the balance grinder for a while and received a lot of attention over the years. > {{champion:40}} > > Just how much did we have to nerf this chick for her to FINALLY...**FINALLY** stop putting the entire support role in a choke hold? > **why the hell would you use any other enchanter?** So here you confirm that Janna has received a lot of attention from the balance team. You also confirm that Janna has stopped 'putting the entire support role in a choke hold'. In fact, Janna is currently a lower tier champion pick for the support role. So we aren't looking at laziness on the part of the balance team. Your objection is that she has a lot in her kit, but Janna really does not have a lot in her kit. Her kit is readable. A player who wants to know what Jana can do can easily read what is in her kit and know what it is that she does! And I for one do not want a rework that turns her kit into an unintelligible mess because a few players think the balance team is lazy... > {{champion:16}} > > Like...her WHOLE KIT is just dedicated to power spamming heals. I *get* it, but...there's NOTHING else she does to any real competence, so GW pretty much takes a cleaver to her overall output in a game. Soraka does a lot of things. In fact, during this season players were maxing her AoE silence and using Soraka aggressively. So it may be that you really haven't spent the time needed to really understand Soraka's kit. Moreover, Soraka has had a rework that almost completely changed her into a different champion in the past few years. She's received a lot of attention from the balance team who has spent so many patches tuning Soraka that it's almost ridiculous. That you only see Soraka as a heal bot and haven't really explored how to play her kit is definitely not a grounds for a rework (although I would not mind if they reverted her rework to the old Soraka, lol). As for GW, it deserves a note here that that 'problem' goes far deeper than Soraka W spam. > {{champion:37}} > > I bring this champion up so much because the sheer amount of lost potential for her design is astounding. Her game play doesn't translate to anything that *feels* impactful, so it's super hard to actually deal with her balancing without getting back lash for it. > *the entire problem...since there's literally no variance in it save for one button.* You see how Xin Zhao had a massive variance issue and Riot gave him **a new skill shot to open up new opportunities via utilizing a new tool that can miss?** Why on Earth was this not done for Sona? I'm still salty over it to this day. OMG, all that 'feels impactful' designer speak can go in the trash bin now please. When RIOT wants to makes things 'impactful', it becomes a META must have that makes everyone groan and mutter, 'why?!?' I get it, you think her kit is 'uninspired' because it barely has a skill shot in it. But your unhappiness with the changes is not an indication that the balance team has been lazy about the changes they've make to Sona. And just because her abilities are pretty much not skill shots is not a good enough reason to rework her. Maybe what you really mean is that you think Sona players are lazy because they don't have to master complicated mechanics to be 'good enough' to lane against you in game or that you feel lazy when you play her. It's worth noting here that Xin Zhao's 'variance issue' was also, largely, not a real problem. > **My main issue is that Riot shows 0 real interest in tackling this at all:** There are no plans to create a new enchanter. **6 years ago, the better half of a decade.** If RIOT isn't seeing the things that you're saying are problems as problems, then I am glad about that. You also seem to really want another 'enchanter' despite saying that 'enchanter game play is extremely uninspired'. I don't think you've put forth a clear vision of what you want an enchanter to be. Maybe you should come up with a new enchanter concept and submit it to RIOT. May be you like Nami, but RIOT wouldn't want to make another champion just exactly like Nami! Whatever 'enchanter' RIOT makes has to have a more compelling reason to be made into a champion than, 'Oh look an enchanter... like Nami.' > They ALSO have no plans to do any VGUs on any enchanters at all. Hell, they aren't doing VGUs on **any supports at all, save one** for the forseeable future, based on all the champs they've showed even marginal interest in over the past year or so, and Morgana doesn't really *need* much work, anyway, since they're really just doing hers because Kayle and her are like a 2 for 1 deal. I really hope RIOT does barely anything at all to Morgana. I like Morgana's kit and I like her look on the RIFT. Changing Morgana could very easily feel like a 'change for change's sake' move, because she has just been in such a good spot over the years. When you rework a champion I think you need a better reason than 'this champion has been in such a great place that we honestly haven't had to make many changes to her... and that's why we are making a change to her!' Wut? (Actually Morgana has received plenty of attention too, so even RIOT has been confounded by how well Morgana's existing design is) 'O and we are changing Kayle, so obviously we have to change Morgana' > Idk what the issue is, honestly. You COULD say "We're treating enchanters like artillery mages, where we don't really need a ton of them in the game"...but what stops you from doing work on the ones that are in the game *right now?* Well, 'right now' RIOT doesn't want to make any changes that would be perceived as 'change for change's sake'. It's not a good time to make changes. I honestly would want to see some really good reasons for a rework to be justified or I would like to see a new champion concept that deserves to be added to the roster as a new champion. I don't want to see RIOT add an enchanter just because they haven't been making enchanters recently. That's just not a good enough reason. > **Long story short:** Enchanter designs aren't necessarily "lazy" because they're super dated. Time change, and as tech and techniques improve, Riot's able to do more with new champs that won't be reflected in their older champs. All of that is fine, but Riot's being super lazy in addressing all of this, just like they were super lazy in addressing fighters not being balanced in the game, and how they were super lazy with bot lane being marksman land instead of an actual lane in the game and now it's pretty much stuck that way. We're gonna have another prolonged issue we can't fix if Riot keeps getting comfortable sitting on issues instead of fixing them. **Long reply short**: I don't agree that RIOT has been lazy about this just because it hasn't happened like you want it to. I'm not even convinced that there is a substantial issue or problem here. And if there isn't a real substantial problem to fix, then nothing needs to be done simply for the sake of looking like you are doing something!
I think the problem is that enchantress class are very boring and not fun to play anymore. They are definitely viable in bot lane. But their kits are so simple and similar that its not exciting to play. It needs more complexity in their kit. I have played enchantress support in other moba and holy shit are they so much fun to play. This is someone who plays enchantress support for years.
: I think you put it pretty well actually. Nami / Bard are the modern brand of enchanter. Even though Nami doesn't do nearly as much "enchanting" as a Sona or Soraka, the feeling of being a positive supportive ally is still there. Edit: also I didn't answer your question about if enchanters can become more viable in solo lanes. Generally we're not opposed to it if the gameplay isn't completely degenerate (old soraka starfall spam). Though in some cases like lulu they can work pretty well but in others their tools make it hard for them to be viable with minor tuning.
> Though in some cases like lulu they can work pretty well This is a fucking joke right? I don't know if you were working during that time when people were playing lulu solo lane a lot, because I do as a lulu support main. The employees in riot was working so hard to try to balance solo lane lulu. It was just nerf, after nerf, after nerf after nerf. Yea, it work pretty well. Finally you nerf it so hard that very little amount of people play lulu in solo lane. As someone who played enchantress support for 7 years, your enchantress are viable but they are so BORING TO PLAY!!!. Their kits needs more complexity to make it more fun. I have played a lot of different moba games that have enchantress support and I can honestly say their kits are so much more fun to play then your enchantress supports. Of course they are not as popular and balance as league but the enchantress supports are way more fun to play.
: As a support, I always buy a support item + {{item:2031}} I don't know what is Riot trying to achieve anymore, Lee sin damage buff, Kindred buff, ...
I read in a post by meddler that they want to lower the sustain of mage supports like brand, zyra, velkoz by losing the 1 health pot. He said that this will have a a less impact on other types of support such as tanks (higher hp5 and resistance) and enchantress (healing/shielding) because they have other source of sustain.
Nhifu (NA)
: Pure utility supports with no damage; ruin the bot lane
You need to play the champions to understand why it is hard to play aggressive vs mages and bruisers. One thing those champions are squishy and due the amount of damage in the game its impossible to go really aggressive. Try facing zyra support vs a lulu support. Zyra can take down lulu's health all the way to 1/3 in one combo while lulu can only take zyra health to 2.5/3 in one combo (e and q). The only time they can play aggressive is during team fights where the tanking is on the adc or other champions. Then they should be auto attacking, buffing and cc. If not then they are not playing the champion right.
: I'm curious what the CD is because that'll affect the rune greatly. If you only have a small window to target somebody after clearing a ward, then the rune won't be worth much at all except vision.
He said the damage will be on the target infinitely until that champion attack another champion.
: Community: Damage and item creep is too high espically on assassins. Riot: we got you fam
No they do have you, read this riot comment to see which class are probably getting the nerf soon: riot rovient (who are making these rune changes): "We are aware that there's a lot of flat damage accessible in the Runes system that's especially potent on ranged supports and other champions who can easily reapply the damage whenever the Rune comes off cooldown. However, these 2 changes to the vision slot shouldn't add much of this kind of damage to the early game."
Malak (NA)
: Lmao new domination rune changes are more assassin buffs
I hate the zombie ward changes. All it does it benefits assassins who have dusk blade. They are giving more damage on a vision rune. I thought they were going to improve the vision aspect of it. No instead we will just add damage too it. In a meta were there already a lot of damage. This is Riot Rovient (who is making these changes opinion) "It's unlikely you'll get any damage from Zombie Ward at all in early laning phase, where flat damage Runes are consistently the most problematic. Players rarely start Oracle Lens rather than yellow Wards and Control Wards are an expensive risk to take at level 1, meaning you won't clear any enemy wards until after you pick up your scanner. So yes, there is a decent amount of flat magic damage attached to the Rune, but it's unlikely to have any impact on your early laning phase or even level 2-3 ganks." Yet he doesn't talk about how this rune is a problem with duskblade. As someone who plays enchantress support in the bot lane it is already hard enough with these mid lane assassins coming to bot lane who are taking your health down 100% to like 5% after one auto attack. Now this extra 30 to 90 bonus magic damage will take me down from 100% to 0%.
: I feel like you're asking for more nerfs :(
I have been following lulu changes for a very long time. When ever there is a nerf that is being applied to lulu, cancerous lulu is the first to support those Nerfs on the board. At first it was annoying, but then you just get use to it. I remember the time when solo lane lulu was so strong, and during that time it was bad for support lulu players. It was just nerf after nerf after nerf. Even though riot wanted to tuned down solo lane lulu, it was also hurting support lulu. It was Riot experiment seeing if they can balance lulu in both top lane and support lane. Which I find was the most dumbest thing ever. But I remember who was on the boards cheering them on of course cancerous lulu. I missed the old old lulu: 1)She use to do double q on the target that got help pix on them, because it lasted longer before. 2)Put an actual shield around minion (causing enemy adc to struggle with last hitting). 3)The vision that she put on target was 6s instead of 4s, really screwed invis players. 4)In the beginning lulu w speed boost also gave ability power (I remember the intro video was like put W on your mage ally, E on your adc, and the ult on divers or tanks) That got me so into her. 5)W didnt scale, so instead of going 3s to 4s with skill level in the past it was 5s at lvl 1 W. 6) Then they brought the ability power utility scaling (so they remove the ability power on w) but her q slow decay had a scale. Which mean you can slow down the decay so that you turn it from 80% decay slow over 2 seconds to a 80% slow for 2s. 7) I also remember the scaling on the movement speed was way more then 5 percent in the beginning. I just remember helping allies chase enemies who are running away. Seeing my allies literally catch up to them when the enemy were so far away. Oh yea scaling on pix's damage. 8) After they remove the q scale and lower the movement speed boost scaling, then they added the attack speed boost on W. 9) Lulu q didn't have 70% reduced damage after the first target. It did 100% damage to all target. 10) Now to add on the list she use to have a 6s shield and now its 2.5s. In my opinion lulu is not fun anymore, but she is definitely viable in the support lane and has strength and weaknesses, just not fun to play. I only play her out of habit. I wish her utilities have cool interactions with each other such as: 1) If she q from her and a target that has help pix on, and they both hit the same enemy champion, that enemy champion will be rooted for 0.2s. 2) Enemy who got poly morph inside wild growth aura will have their defense reduce by certain percentage to the ally who has wild growth on them. 3) You put help pix on an enemy champion, an auto attack/spell from an ally who has whimsy on will cause the enemy vision to shrink (like graves's smoke). Only last the duration of help pix. Interaction like these will make lulu a lot more fun to play. It makes you think what is the best outcome that leads you to victory. In other words a lot more options. It makes you feel you are the controller of fights. I don't get that feeling anymore.
: First, there already is a % bonus to heals and shields though making it a stat wouldn't be a bad idea. Second, I like the idea of having something like that for cc to let supports choose to prioritize certain parts of their kit but it has a few problems. Tanks would probably abuse it since bonus cc duration is good for them and even if you combine it with the heal and shield boosting stat they can still benefit from that affecting many of their defensive abilities. Also, if a champion's cc duration needs to be balanced around the stat then that makes them a lot less useful when they're behind and don't have items or aren't playing support and need stats from other items. Finally, as can be seen with the current state of tenacity, there's a lot of cc out there that can't have it's duration changed. I guess they could code it to suspend them in the air for longer for abilities that knock the target airborne but don't displace them but that still wouldn't work for a lot of abilities like blitz pull.
The problem with % heal and shields is that it is really hard to balance. Some supports can abuse that stat in one patch while other time it is not helping other support. With a specific stat for utility you can tune the ratio for each champion so that it works out for that specific champion. I remember the time when lulu would go Top lane and because of that she would get constant nerf over and over again. The reason why, is that in top lane lulu could get AP faster than support lane and during that time she had a lot more utility scaling back then too. Due to that she would have increase damage and increase utility with time, making her really strong against to fight. So riot would just nerf and nerf. I remember writing on the boards that time saying she needs a separate stat for utility. I remember playing another moba back then that was related to the DC universe. It got cancel though. I remember in that game they scale the utility of champions with mana and damage of the champion with AP. It was so cool. You could go more support role or more damage role. There was a champion that felt very similar to lulu. I wish riot would implement this, but they would never.
Rioter Comments
: Learning how to read and react to different situations is just part of the game's skill curve. Personally I don't have difficulty reacting to those spells because shields are instant, most spells like the ones you listed have reasonable travel times. > Ps: Its not 45% cooldown all the time. If you go into the inspiration tree then yes. But most of the time ppl go into the resolve tree for the heal/shield stat or domination for item cooldown reduction. I used the word "especially" for a reason. The shields are **currently** very forgiving for the caster, **especially** when you throw 45% CDR into the mix. Get it?
Wow that is impressive. I tried practicing again today, and wow I suck so bad. Cait q and then shield at the right time. I just couldnt do it. I dont know if I am use to 6s and it will take me time to adjust to 2.5s. Or this is my human limit. I am so screwed.
KoKoboto (NA)
: Holy moly shield spam is finally being ADDRESSED
I am actually kinda scared now. I try practicing by pretending my shield is 2.5s. Wow my reaction time is so slow. I dont know if its because I have been so use to 6 second on lulu, that a 2.5s is going to take time to adjust. Or its my human limit. I am so fucked.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zvdAYEKV,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-06-05T14:27:02.422+0000) > > Riot buffed tanks' damage? When? Sunfire was gutted. Cinderhulk was shifted to minion monster primarily. Iceborn has gotten multiple nerfs. > > The Sunfire revert was just because tanks in top HAVE to CS. This is an inherent flaw with the game, non supports have to have damage in their kits that lets them kill minions. It makes the idea of low damage supportive solo laners nearly impossible. Hell, look at Ivern. Ivern had to lose an entire ability slot in design to make him into a low damage tank that could still clear the jungle. Yeah I understand the difficulties, when champions like Shen have to get both sunfire AND titanic for waveclear it's not great, but I also feel that they shouldn't be able to 1v1 a carry. By that I mean neither side should be able to 1v1 in top lane without some awesome outplay/getting ahead. As tanks they should need to be countered by tank shred, and therefore don't require the damage they currently do. Maybe sunfire doing extra damage to minions, and dorans shield giving extra damage to minions like dorans ring? In any case my idea of a tank is someone who is really hard to kill but does very little damage. Currently tanks just aren't tanky, and do more damage then they should
"riot haven't lowered the amount you shield" Yea they did. They are lowering heal/shield stat on the three items that have it by a total of 9%
: As a Support and {{champion:117}} main and {{champion:61}} Mid player, im fine with this for the most part so long as Help Pix buff when passed to an ally with E isn't being affected (which I doubt it is). I'd like to know what compensations are in store if any tho. Overall this chance will let people see the difference between the average Lulu and the great ones who know how to time their shields.
Compensation? I dont think so. There is a nerf to Heal/shield stat of the three items. 9% reduction in total.
: But that's where skill (timing) comes in. The shields are currently very forgiving for the caster, especially when you throw 45% CDR into the mix. Riot has a good reason for what they're doing here, i see that even as a Karma main. It's not as bad as it looks (I've tested it on PBE), especially if Riot ends up compensating them.
To be honest its not just timing skill, its also the ability to predict the future. When I heard about these changes happening 2 weeks ago I started practicing doing it. The most difficult I had during laning phase was Miss fortune q shot and Kai'sai w. The speed her q goes I always miss just by a second. While the hard part is to know when she is going to q or not. You see low minions and you think oh she is going to q, so you shield, but an auto attack comes out. For kai'sai her w speed is way to fast to shield in time. Literally 10% of the time I get it ( I feel its just luck). Ez too. Varus can hold his q long enough for the shield duration to run out. So you have to shield the moment you see the arrow is moving. That just adc. Don't get me started with assassins. Now that I think about it its going to test your micro-analyzing skill (predict the future), reflex skill (timing ), and your ability to use the right skill at the right time when playing enchantress support. This all sounds cool, but it becomes useless if your teammate (specifically adc) is shit. All those thinking goes down the drain. Ps: Its not 45% cooldown all the time. If you go into the inspiration tree then yes. But most of the time ppl go into the resolve tree for the heal/shield stat or domination for item cooldown reduction.
Áery (NA)
: First off that’s a horrible reason If that’s the case then damage creep should be looked at not enchanters. Second, what does this have to do with her shield being 100% up?
Damage creep should be looked at. The nerf onto heal/shield stat and shield duration is going to see the rise of assassins in the game. A lot champions have way to much damage.
: Your name is ridiculous and im sure you main janna or just can't fight Lulu. Well I main the Lulu queen, and let me tell you, im ready for these, atleast the shield value isn't getting nerfed, so there's that. It's going to be more challenging to play, sure. People are actually ridiculous if they think people who play enchanters are people who want freelo, no, they actually like those champions. It's sad people actually thinking Lulu is easier/more faceroll than Janna. xD AND, Janna, of course, receives a SMALLER NERF! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
The shield value are getting nerfed, well not the champion shield itself, but a 9 percent total reduction in heal and shield stat from the three items.
: So are they going to buff the amount they shield then, to match the inflation of damage to reach a similar state??
I don't think so because they are also nerfing heal and shield power stat in the coming patch too. These three items {{item:3504}} {{item:3222}} {{item:3107}} are going to have a 9% reduction total in their heal and shield power.
: [GAMEPLAY] Unable to buy certain items in game as support
THAT IS IT !!!! I made a post about it too. I had a hard time explaining it (I dont know if you seen it). I had to sell the components to buy the full item. I wish riot would say something if they notice the bug and they are trying to fix it.
Reav3 (NA)
: Internally we usually buy stuff like Duskblade and Ghostblade which are both really good on Pyke
Duskblade and Ghostblade are probably good items for him but how long would it take to purchase those items. Both of them cost 2900 gold. Most support items are around 2200 gold. I feel like most game would end for pyke with a gold income item, boots and either duskblade or Ghostblade. He would take the longest to complete his build if he builds like an assassin and is in the support role. Probably the longest than any other champion. If he is very dependent on item wouldn't his solo lane potential outshine his support potential because he gets more gold that way. This is probably the weirdest champion in the support role ever.
Rioter Comments
DeusVult (NA)
: Support gold item breaking the shop
I think I am having that problem too. I had a game like 5 min ago where I couldnt buy the full mikael crucible. I had to sell the components items first and then I could buy mikael crucible. Before I even want to purchace mikael crucible, the picture was light up indicating I can buy it but I didnt have the gold. I was playing lulu too.
Axerito (EUNE)
: The problem with supports right now is that they became active item holders more than champion on their own. Supports are now defined by items they can use rather than their personal kits. Shifting some power from items to support champion's abilities would be a great change in my opinion.
I agree with you a 100%. Supports are nothing but items. Their kits are so blah and not unique or complex (specifically enchantress support) that support items outshine them. In other words the items effect have more of an impact on the game (or I feel I am actually doing something for the team) then the champions skills itself. The thing is Idk why I feel this way when I play them.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9
When it comes to lulu and Janna, their shields have both offensive and defensive aspect to it. If you are decreasing their shield up time, what about their offensive part of it. Is the duration of the ad that is given to the ally going to decrease for Janna? Is the duration of pix on the ally going to be shorter for lulu? Also, would the duration of pix on whatever target be long enough so that we have time to aim and shoot our q skill for lulu players?
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HvmunJI8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-02T21:08:52.530+0000) > > Here's the thing: I made a post concerning assassins and supports. Guess what I saw a lot of? Assassin players saying they should be able to 1v2. Okay so I saw what you said and I knew it wasn't true because this is the Gameplay boards this has for the most part never been true Assassin players don't really post here much unless to aquire downvotes with few replies and ask for reverts and while the state of gameplay does depress me a little that's not the goal of this reply. I am not saying you are a liar you clearly give a shit about what you post it's closer to misguided by all of the anti assassin player propaganda that is constantly posted here. I went through all 203 comments and only 3 people actually said yes they should be able to do so. Of those 3 only one of them is an assassin player and he's on a smurf. You actually had more assassin players agree with you and I myself agree with you too they should not be able to freely 1v2. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=bioodwing The smurf http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=PRINCEBLUMPKIN http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=DOOZKU The point that actual assassin players keep trying to say is that the vast majority of us don't actually claim this at all. We are reasonable people we don't see an adc and support and go okay this should be free. We know that despite being insanely fed we can still lose because it's a 1v2. We want a more even playing field in the effectiveness of supports at stopping us vs us actually being able to make our gold matter. Some of the points in your thread that I wanna bring up. Not all supports are lulu and janna. Yes they do get blamed for the problems of assassins a lot but when I see supports I think of Rakan, Blitz, tahm kench god damn tahm kench, braum, thresh nautilus and nami as being the supports to essentially stop you in a quick fashion. However their popularity is not equal. Players talk about janna and lulu because most people pick them due to them having a lot of effect with little effort needed No one is really going to complain about someone they hardly see. You cant outplay most of what they do while the others give you a lot of options. Tahm may remove the adc but at the same time they are also not able to fight while he protects them. Janna and lulu simply press a button or 2 and you are instantly dealt with. I can do something about all 4 of threshes abilities but someone like say nautilus pressing R oh me just means im SOL. It does not escape me that some of these are tanks however they are played enough in the support role that I feel they are worth mentioning. Assassins in solo queue are dumb as fuck atm but it's mostly based on skill level as you go up in skill levels they just kinda vanish because coordinated players know how easy it is to stop them. Sure their winrates are high but that's mostly do to lower pickrates and more dedicated one tricks. Being an assassin player that also plays support from time to time purely so that I can learn my enemy I've seen both sides a lot and I do think that they need some counterplay. You can set an assassin too far behind to be relevant but a support kits power isn't going to change much based on how much gold they have. An 0/16 leblanc for example isn't a real threat but a 0/16 lulu can still massively affect the game. I know both of those cases are extremes but I think my point is easy to get. Change targets. I have seen this from so many people so I am going to give a similar response. Changing targets does not change the status quo at all. Nothing stops the support from protecting whomever they please including themselves and in most cases it's not about who the assassin targets as much as how fast the support points and clicks on you or your target. I've been playing this role for a few years and I have to always assume the moment I appear one of more of these is going to happen: My damage is being cut by 40%, whoever I chose to target is either going to gain a massive amount of temporary hp or become untargetable or I am going to be cc'ed with most of these being instant and most assassins cannot physically affect the game faster than these things happen. There are cases like rengar where that champion is just stupid to play against but for the most part the delays did their job. In a 5v5 having to play a class that is usually building squishy for the most part to function and usually being melee range a 1.5 second CC can mean you instantly melt. Waiting for cooldowns did used to be way easier a while ago but now with how much cdr is in the game there simply isnt enough downtime for that especially when your team is essentially playing a 4v5 until you come in. I apologize if anything comes off as offensive I am not great with words.
Riot intentionally put point and click skill to counter mobility champions aka assassins. If we don't have that assassins will be the top class. Lulu and Janna are Enchanters and Riot definition of Enchanters is: Enchanters focus on amplifying their allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. Enchanters themselves are often quite fragile and bring relatively low damage to the table, meaning they really only shine when grouped together with others. All enchanters have is to be able to protect their allies through cc and buff. Nerfing that will destroy lulu and janna. They dont have the damage, they are fragile, and they can never fight by them self and they always have to be next to a teammates. Each champion's kits are strong against others champions kits or weak against others. Lulu and Janna kits are intentionally strong against assassins kit. They have always been strong against them compare to other support kit. Lulu and Janna are weak against battle mage who can do strong consistent damage and catchers, once get caught usually the death of us. Nerfing lulu and Janna would just make assassins insanely strong class in the game.
: I've actually been waiting for this comment. For starters, Pix stays on the target for 6 seconds regardless of whether the shield breaks. Secondly, I never said the AD on Janna's E needed to expire with the shield either (I'd actually recommend that the AD stays for 3.5 seconds which, late game, is equivalent to 7-8 basic attacks). Now to answer your other points: > 1) Lulu and Janna always need teammates around them... You just described every Support in the game. The thing is, however, that there's counterplay to a thresh hook or lantern, or an Alistar Headbutt ---> Pulverize - in fact Riot changed the Dash Speed of Headbutt specifically to make the counterplay easier. > 2) They tend to have weak damage and tankiness depending on their build. You just described every Support in the game but nobody is complaining about Nami or Soraka heals because healing is reactive and has counterplay and they're just as weak and squishy. The big difference between long-duration shields and healing is the play pattern. Healing can a) be debuffed and b) is an inherently reactive action - there is no benefit to healing a full HP ally. Shielding, on the other hand, is broken because it requires no timing. There is zero skill expression. You simply sit there casting E on your ADC whenever there is (or you suspect there is) an Enemy in the vicinity. In the case of Lulu there is actually a -0.5 second window for someone to attack while the shield is on cooldown, and Janna has a 0.5 second window. Either the shield cooldowns need to be twice as long, or the duration needs to be halved as a bare minimum. > 3) Being a shield bot at the back of an adc is dumbest thing to do. All that does is put all the pressure on winning onto the adc. I actually agree with this if you're talking about Lane Phase. You should be weaving in Basic Attacks wherever you can, even if it's just for Spellthief's Gold. But if you continue to play like this in teamfight's (which is clearly what I'm talking about when I'm referring to Rank 5 Shields and Capped CDR in the Original Post) you're going to cost your team the fight hence front-to-back teamfighting.
There is counter play against shielding support: 1) Janna and lulu cannot spam their shield over and over. We will run out of mana. Lulu shield cost 100 mana per cast and Janna shield cost 110 mana per cast. That is the cost of most ultimate for other champions. Fights that last really long is the worst for them, as mana regen takes time to bring back the mana. They are also using other spells too. 2)You can't really compare shield and heal as they both have their own strength and weaknesses. Shield is strong during fights while heal is strong outside of fights (Also during fights with no grievous wound). If you ever play a lulu or janna support against a soraka support during laning phase it is extremely hard. Both side will fight it out and the side with the shield support is at a slight advantage in the beginning of the fight (no grievous wound yet). If the shield support and her adc does not get the kill, then the advantage shift to the healer side. As the healer can erase the damage making their side to be in a better spot than the other side. This allows the adc to stay in lane longer. During team fight this is allows teammates to continue fighting without needing to back to base. 3)A counter play for shield support is that you know who has the shield on them. You can always attack the person with no shield on them. That is why timing is very important for shielding support. 4)The strength of a shield can easily be destroy if you have more then one person attacking the adc. Shield are strong against 1 vs 1 fight but in team fights that have two or more damage dealers attacking the shielded player. That shield will disappear in a second. That is why a good lulu and janna support know that they can't depend on their shield only as they would have to be using other spells. Being far back and spamming shield won't help with using their other spells
: The comparison is more than fair. 1. Shields are an anti-burst mechanic - there's no reason for them to last more than 2 seconds. 2. Riven's Shield is there to compensate for her being Melee and having no innate sustain. 3. By comparison, Janna, whose E cooldown is only 1.9 seconds longer than Riven's E and which lasts an extra 3.5 seconds, can cast her shield from complete safety (e.g. if her ADC has 550 Range, Janna could hypothetically be 1350 range away from any potential threat).
Lulu and Janna shield need to last long because of what is in their kit. Lulu passive allows lulu to give pix to the champion that has her shield on them. Pix would stay on the champion for the duration of the shield. A 2 second duration shield would only allow pix to fire 1 bolt or maybe 2. Making her passive useless. Another thing is that It allows her to fire her 2nd q shot where ever she put her shield on. A 2 second duration is not enough time to properly aim your q. For janna its the bonus ad she give to her allies and having it only for 2 second is useless. Honestly man, you really need to play those two champions and you will see that they are not as strong as you think they are. Like every champion in the game they have weaknesses.The only way to find and understand those weaknesses is you have to actually play those champions. Weaknesses: 1) Lulu and Janna always need teammates around them in other words if you see them by them self that is the best time to attack. Most of the time they would just cc you and run away to a teammate unless your health is really low. When they go warding they tend to be by them self. 2) They tend to have weak damage and tankiness depending on their build. One thing for sure they would never have the same damage output of a mage and tankiness of a tank. Utility is all they have. 3)Being a shield bot at the back of an adc is dumbest thing to do. All that does is put all the pressure on winning onto the adc. In order to win the ADC has to be really skilled at playing and the enemies have to be skill less. If your solo q most of the time this is not the case. Making this strategy bad. Not only that the support mana will drain fast. This strategy is not as strong as you think it is. Try it and you will understand.
: The shields on the supports as of right now are also freaking free with the shit ton of Mana Regen that is built into itemization.
The mana cost of shield is to a maximum of 100 mana for lulu and maximum 110 mana for janna. That is the cost of most ultimate for champions. Spamming shield is the dumbest thing to do (aka shield bot). You should only shield when you know ur allies are being attack. If you do spam you will run out of mana fast. Not only that you would also be using your other spells too. As much as you think mana regen is amazing, you are forgetting one thing and that it takes time to get the mana back. Not only that to get the "shit ton of mana regen that is built into itemization" takes around 40 min into the game (depending how skill ur adc is). With the low cooldowns on all our spells it is easy to drain the champions's mana fast. Due to this supports cannot handle continuous fighting for a long time. Supports like engaging for a short time and then back out. During this back out they will regen their mana. Once our skills pictures turn blue (no mana) we are useless. So, riven can continuous fighting for a long time while lulu and janna cannot. Another thing lulu and Janna are terrible by them self and is dependent on the skill level of their adc in fights while pro riven can fight 1 vs 3 and still come out on top. You cannot compare the two.


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