: Even without it they still have god tier itemization. Every time I play a mage I have free magic pen, almost always 40% CDR, and I don't even have to sacrifice AP to do so.
define sacrificing AP when ADs can build 500 AD when the old norm was about 360 max, and AP used to be 1200-1300 optimally. Mage ratios tend to only be 60-70%. AD ratios tend to be 100% bonus AD or greater (some like Poppy, Udyr, Lee Sin, Sion, are all much much higher) Also, but stacking CDR, I can guarantee you aren't tanky enough to take any hits. CDR heavy items don't generally have CC or additional attributes, HP etc. You're basically building a glass cannon, and hoping not to get tickled.
: Conqueror nerf for Mages are in the wrong direction
: I don’t know what it takes to get people to understand that CC immunity Magic shield, is not the same thing as Sivir/Noc 1 spell block abilities.
Depending on the ability, Morgana only blocks 1 now too. The shield isn't large enough unless massively fed to take more than 1 ability right now, and it's friggin 23 second cooldown. Nocturne can block all spells for 1.5 seconds, btw. So can Fiora. Her shield REALLY isn't all that strong anymore. They knocked 20% off its shield value. so just power through it..... not hard....
: > [{quoted}](name=MiracleMorg94,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IxYyGwfP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-09T03:14:42.627+0000) > > She wasn't reworked because they liked her kit as it was. It's simple yet complicated, has damage, crowd control, utility. She's not like all the overloaded shit these days and I'm glad they barely touched her. > > Sure she can be frustrating, but of course ANY counter to your favorite champion will be frustrating. Doesn't mean she/he needs changed/nerfed, etc. > > Her E is strong but it's gated by long CD costs. Perfect tradeoff. Bait it out just like any other problematic spell- Zyra's E, Lulu's whimsy, and so on then jump on her. Same for her Q as well. > > She's perfectly fine, actually. Her E is fine? Yea i love when i set-up a perfect gank bot and some asshole point and click removes my gank by disabling cc on the ally that was so fucking r%%%%%ed that actually walked into my stun (ekko) thus me losing a gank into a meta where failing ganks can cost games. Mhm, sure thing. How is it gated by long cd???? Hello? Anybody home???? Long CD? The only time you use it is when ur adc gets engaged, or you use your ult into the enemy team. You press R, then E yourself away from CC so you can follow. That's it, there are no more other ways of using her E. 2 possibilities in what? 14 minutes? Mhm, indeed gated by long cd. I get her Q should send ppl afk, and i dont have any issue with that since my QSS is clean as fuck, literally god like, same goes for her ult, but being able to remove allys mistakes from the map if ur in E range? That is not even closely remotely to a skill expression, and makes the champ easier than garen (Press E, go conqueror, win lane - quality gameplay!) E should either remove CC either block magic dmg, but not both! Or should have rules on how to use it on allies since solo & jg XP changes now will punsih players for failing a roam/gank more than ever
Or you hit the target with a non CC ability, erase the shield, and then CC..... Or just target the one without the shield.... Sorry. The cooldown is nearly twice as long as most CC poke.
: Morgana is a very problematic champion
Sticks and Stones. Morgana is actually barely pulling 50% in the current "meta" Cry more about spell shield when Sivir and Nocturne also have one. Not to mention it has an insane cooldown, and the shield is too small to take more than 1 hit from a spell now.
Kazekiba (NA)
: This. Taliyah has a 56% WR in the game in 3 positions at one point and was only seen in pro play, partly because Riot associates her with Zenon and won't touch her and partly because her passive/ult are simply not cool for most Solo Q players apparently. Seriously even Riot asked "WHY DOES NO ONE PLAY TALI? Even as *the best champ in the game* she had under 1% play rate. Help us fix her pls
The irony here was..... Taliyah actualy sort of meets the "independent curious adventurer trope" and also is semi "cute." She SHOULD have a play rate, but I think it fell off when they took away Q's Aoe. After that, people just weren't into the hard hitting single target Q fantasy. I used to jungle her. As soon as they changed Q, I think I've played 2 total games on her.
: i play a tree nearly every game. but i am a maokai OTP
: Wut? Since when does Morgana has a stun? And when was it increased?
Her R (second activation) And afaik, unless it's on her PBE (which I can't access at work) It hasn't.
: >He's still the most underplayed champion Have you seen Ivern’s playstyle? Unless he is busted to the point that everyone must play ivern, I doubt you’re going to see him picked much at all when he is balanced.
I've seen some literal 1v5 Iverns. He can be toxic if played correctly. Problem is..... 90% don't, nor do their teams play with him.
S0kaX (EUNE)
: He's still the most underplayed champion, and while they try and "buff" him, they also buff champions that do not need it, like fcking morgana who makes you get an afk warning and blitz who did not need anything, his q was annoying enough.
Play rates have 0 to do with viability. People play champs more for Aesthetics than viability, and Ivern's personality/theme is one of the least associated with League player fantasies. No one wants to play who they actually are: a tree hugging pacifist protecting Nature. They prefer to play what they can't be: Knights.... Demons.... destroyers..... saints...sexy.... indomitable.
: Is it just me or is the Warden buff worthless?
Warden is the difference between your back line dying in 20 seconds or 8 seconds. Although a lot of damage is Skills and Magic. there's still the Shields, the autos that take time to charge mana (even Ocean still has 3-4 rounds of autos unless standing on an ocean node or starting with items) Try this experiment: Go Ocean, but only take Thresh or Nautilus. Go a few rounds into late game like this. Then have both. Compare what your team can do with 2 wardens vs 1. 4 Wardens goes even further, especially if you give them items for magic mitigation, and crit mitigation, or glove dodge items.
: Senna's Q has a delayed effect and small hitbox. Same for Neeko's. It's far easier to avoid the CC of those two than Morg's Q. The differences are akin to the differences between hooks. Morg's root would be Nauts' hook, Senna's would be Pyke's, and Neeko's would be Blitz'.
P.S. Talking about Senna W, not Q. And no. Every condition of Senna's W is exactly EXACTLY the same as Morg's Q. Being delayed doesn't make it more conditional. That just impacts the ability of a nontarget to get out of the aoe. It can also be used on a low HP minion NEAR a champion, to instantly root the champion. It can also wave freeze on its own. A LOT more applications for the same hit box/range/cooldown etc. Neeko does NOT have a delay, and can go straight through targets. Neeko's also travels faster than Morg's.
: type that out the next time you see a poor soul get hit by Morg's Q. You'll have the time to do so. what differentiates Morg here is that there's fewer conditions and risks than something like Senna's W or Neeko's snare/ult. it's generally easier to hit.
Senna's Q is exactly the same "conditions" as Morg Q: Same Cooldown. Same Range, Same mana cast. Same projectile speed. Same width. The only difference is after it hits, and Senna's W scales up to 2.25 second root, so hardly much less CC for its increased versatility. Neeko lost a lot of the conditions on her E > If Tangle-Barbs hits at least one enemy, it grows in size and speed, and the root duration is increased. In other words..... now instead of passing through 2 targets, it now only has to pass through ONE to max out 3 seconds. Furthermore, it CAN pass through, instead of getting hard blocked. Her Q is also better at consistently putting down aoe damage than Morgana.
: Like I said, it's not just about the Dot itself, but the compensations that always tag along with them too. Since Morg's Dot would take an idiot to stand atop of it, she's compensated with a 3 second root. I guarantee you her Q wouldn't last so long, be as wide as it is, and have such high scalings if her Dot weren't a Dot. You say I'm crying, but that's exactly my point. People generally dislike fighting these champions.
Compensated with a 3 second root when other champs now have 3 second aoe roots, much stronger knockups, or bank off nonchamp roots Single target 3 sec root isn't that special anymore.
AdamrCc (EUW)
: They've started they wanted to but jungle is more influential now with early gankers striving even more with the dragon changes, and enchanters are useless with how much gold they get these days.
Enchanters still hold 4 of the top 10 Support slots. I play support. They "Gold" fine still. It just depends on whether or not you are the pressure duo, or if you are the weak duo. Strong duo bots with enchanters are doing fine, and the gold income is comparable, even with the post 1000 Quest farming penalty. Just gotta get your assists, possibly Triumph.
AdamrCc (EUW)
: It isn't the preseason. The last 2 seasons have been exactly what OP describes and what you're seeing now is a continuation of the effect.
Sorry but I play with the low eloers and during the "season" they are generally fine. After the season is over, they literally begin trolling whenever a single negative thing is said to them, or just once they've decided the game is over. They don't even try to hide it. MAJOR difference in play right now and say in July. A lot of the things Riot did to the early game for this season actually slow things down: -Less Plate Gold. -Less Support Mana and damage. -Slower impact of junglers. They've done almost nothing to enhance the offensive nature of early game.
NY64 (NA)
: Is the new Nimbus Cloak better or worse?
Why would people vote for new version when old version was a massive flat rate modded by other move speed options? New option is basically a kill secure mechanism only.
: Tips for countering Senna
Senna is generally crap tier in low elo solo/duo. Just get a Blitz/Leona/Naut support and all in her when her adc can't compensate. The worst thing you can do vs Senna is play passively. She literally has 15 second+ cooldowns on her main abilities. If she misses a W, take that as a signal to all In. Communicate with your support. Caitlyn, Jinx, Vayne all actually destroy Senna. Even Lucian destroys Senna. and MF is a toss up (once fed she near 1 shots Senna, and Senna literally cannot run from her ult if it's used right) Play vs her like you'd play vs a Miss Fortune: Do NOT stand behind a minion line in a direct angle where she is in a position to Q you. Realize her W is basically Morgana's Q, and try to dodge it the same. If you play this way, and have a good engage support, Senna is a fish in a barrel, and literally CANNOT trade you/kill you if part of her kit is down. It literally takes her entire kit + a major item lead to kill people in a Auto> Q > Auto > W > R Auto combo. If she's missing anything, she will lose.
: How we went to "i lose,mb i did some mistakes" to "i lose, look at my mates 0/10 !"
The biggest factor is that it's preseason, and "anything goes" .... at least in the minds of players in mid elos. Their play has no consequence because they will get a soft reset in January, and they get no real rewards for playing right now. Also, people are testing champion thresholds and what they can do more, and nor exactly sticking to metas. Smurfs are playing accounts they do not care about in ranked, because normals are boring and usually surrenders. ------------------ That being said, it's annoying ofc. My last game last night, my team literally inted 0/4 on a self provoked invade...... It looked like we had a better invade for the first 7-8 seconds...... and then my adc and jung just started chasing a vayne they couldn't catch, while Vayne's Leona kept rooting them. I got stuck buried in a 2v3 while they got picked off. They fed Vayne 2/0, then I died to their jung, and then mid died to Vayne. Level 1 3/0 Vayne. Team acted like "nothing's wrong." Adc proceeded to int into Leona 4-5 more times and top hard fed. Evelynn ate our Mundo Jungle. By about 8 minutes we had a 8/0/9 Vayne, a 5/0 Evelynn, and something like an overall 4/19. I actually had the most damage on team with a whopping 9k damage Senna. Mundo did 3.4k. Mid did 4.3 Top 5k. Vayne? 23k. Evelynn? 21k. Once they inted to the Vayne/Leona, we basically had no bot lane at all. Jhin would die, then I'd die or passive behind turret. ---------------------- You know what's funny? Season 10 will probably be a little more normalized than Season 9, with the reduced support gold, reduced plate gold, etc. But this is STILL how preseason is turning out.
Saezio (EUNE)
: When was the last time a DoT effect was introduced to the game?
Gangplank's rework was the last DoT. His passive.
: Dots are generally super unhealthy and you can't convince me otherwise. Nothing is more painful than a point & click Malz E or stepping on a shroom and getting ate alive by Liandry's Torment. Like, the thing with dots is that they're compensated for the sake of being dots, and these compensations are often super obnoxious. Singed's entire kit works to support his poison, and your end result is the creation of one of the most annoying champions. This is kinda true to every dot heavy champ, they're often disliked. Malz, Singed, Teemo, Cass, and Brand.
Because Morg's DoT is totally OP. (Not unless you have no mag resist, no compensary runes, and take a massive hit from a successful Q) Why cry about DoT when MOST off these champs are countered by Second Wind?
: Yay, she's not going to instantly nuke me with Q-> "R"->"R" anymore. :D After her inevitable nerfs for actually being relevant before 6, she'll finally be balanced. Making Diana less stat check is always a good change. Best part is Diana players will still love the change because they'll finally be playing a real champion. ____________ The inevitable W duration nerf when she sees pro play is going to be so juicy when playing against her. She'll finally have counterplay after her latest Q change again.
No..... she's going to nuke you pre 6 with Q > E > E with W primed. In other words she will now snowball and play more like a Jungle Akali or Katarina, starting pre-6.
Warmas (EUW)
: The bruiser idea wouldn't be bad but i'm sure she is going to become another mage for which she only gains an extra burst.
She's now going to be a level 2 ganker that snowballs like an early Kat or Akali.
: Diana's getting changes in 9.23 lads
You mean that she's going to be toxic as a jungler with her R being available before 6. The scaling on her new E(R) isn't all that different from what It was as an R, so it's probably going to be broken as a soon as a Diana gets her Echo in jungle. It's also going to massively increase her already good clear speed, since E (R) can be used on camps to double E. The only thing that was keeping her from being toxic was the fact her old W used to be an almost non effect no damage skill. Now it's on her R, and does damage as well, and massively pulls a larger area. Now.... she can Dash at level 2. Think about how that changes her jungle profile, and not only once; she can dash twice.
Sirsir (NA)
: Best way to fix Kaleidostone
The keystone is fine. The key to making it successful is for people to actually try it. Works great on Senna, timing and everything.
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YL6bpilf,comment-id=003e000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-03T22:32:29.651+0000) > > Nope. And she's not. Damage is average. Heals/shields are low/mid grade. Range is lower than counters, mobility easy to abuse. Dies to anyone who encounters her in 1 second if they reach her. > > She's a 51% Support. She's a 53+ some % Adc only because she gets 4-5 seconds of hard CC with her W, plus the support's CC, to help mitigate the fact that after she skills, she's basically helpless for 10+ seconds, and that vs more than 1 person, she literally dies every time. > > Go Try playing her. About the only games you will have low deaths is when you stand back, do nothing, except the occasional W and Q to CC for your team, or heal your team. If you actually try to poke with her, you will almost always have 8+ deaths. so is that why she's THE best adc rn? you're presenting her as a weak champion while she really isn't. she's quite over the top, in fact.
What's so hard to understand about her duoing hard CC supports, having 4-5 seconds of pure uninteractive poke, because she herself has hard CC. There's a reason Caitlyn and Jinx's hard CC is conditional, and Ashe and Varus's is an R; they offer to much utility to just be a skill shot. There's a reason Senna and Jhin are performing about the same with the same exact Supports. HARD CC. Nautilus Dredgelines, Roots, and Senna W's. Instant 4 second level 2-3 all in before lanes have item and level HP growth, with very little counterplay. It's not her herself. It's her low level interaction with hard supports. In the scope of a support, her level 1 is lackluster, and and adcs don't generally give her large windows of poke. Her pauses between autos are so long, most of the bot lane can kill her in between IF she attempts to outright stack wisps off champs.
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=uvco8ugw,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-12-06T22:01:04.291+0000) > > What's interesting is even though back line, he doesn't leap to back line as an Assassin. > > Still..... Assassin + Jeweled Gauntlet + IE on him makes him a monster 2000+ damage bouncer. Ah, if he doesn't leap, then fine. Why doesn't he leap?
Tbh it's wierd. Tried it again. Sometimes he did. Sometimes he didn't. I can only suspect that some assassins and berserkers jump faster, and since they engage in fights i close proximity, Brand doesn't jump.
: Assassin Brand doesn't sound like such a good idea... when I need a third Assassin with Youmou's I'll usually stick it on somebody Tanky... Assassin SIlver Malphite or Yorick. Besides, it's much more amusing.
What's interesting is even though back line, he doesn't leap to back line as an Assassin. Still..... Assassin + Jeweled Gauntlet + IE on him makes him a monster 2000+ damage bouncer.
: shouldve made zyra 3* js.
Zyra IS the weakest summoner. Her plants do the least damage, and the fact they are "untargettable" results in a situation where champions are ALWAYS the primary target. In other words..... most other summons result in body blocks that can take some heat off champions.
Zullar (NA)
: Senna ADC
That's the whole point. As Adc, she will still get stacks off champions and off large cannons, but she will average 25-50 less range and less access to crit and flat AD as compensation for being allowed to play with a Support who has hard CC and allows her to just outright scale off champions. Keep in mind it's not as bad as it sounds. Even pros miss about 20-25% of CS coming at them, meaning if you encounter 280 CS in a game, some 22 will be cannon minions. On top of that, about 70 will be missed kills, giving out about 14 more stacks. Of the ones you DO kill, you will get another 3.5 That puts you at about 40 stacks organically as an adc in pro situations, more if you are a BAD adc (more 20% opportunities). That's not including champion poke or jungle camps, or Drakes/Barons/Heralds. You'll still scale 80-100 stacks. You just won't scale 120-140. Given greater gold income, greater access to lane CC (like Leona/Naut/Blitz) you should be getting more stacks off champions anyways (Support actually struggles to poke because most lane ADCs don't create enough opportunities for Senna to double poke without being counterpoked. It's a hell of a lot easier for Nautilus to CC for 3 seconds, Senna CC for 2 seconds, and gain 3-4 stacks in the exchange, than for say a Miss Fortune with a Senna to vs a Jhin and a Vel koz to poke, peel, etc. With most adcs, Senna Support generally just doesn't have enough lane CC vs Adc Senna.
: I'm not guaranteed to get any of those, but I hear you However... I do have an issue with that Syndra statement. How does she generate mana faster than instantaneously?
It doesn't have to be instant. Her skill hits up to 7 units at once, and with 2 items crits for 1890. If on Mage cast, it double taps and literally erases 2/3 of a team. With 2 Seraphs, your Ez only does about 500 damage at best with skill unless he has a Jeweled Gauntlet last, which would only double it, since there's no room for Assassin or IE.) In other words, he may instant cast, but it takes about 15 instant casts to do what Syndra can do in 1 skill. P.S. I just had an insane Kha Zix game with a {{item:3031}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3040}} on him. By the time he was 3 Star, he was doing 1760 crits every time he leaped and just destroyed entire teams, including 3 star full Predator with the right items. [img]https://i.imgur.com/6te7IMh.png[/img] I was generally item deprived this game, btw.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BF7m4uhA,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-05T08:09:28.654+0000) > > 1) she literally freezes herself when autoing or skilling. SHE STANDS STILL. Kalista doesn't. Kalista is less mobile than Senna when slowed, and also DOES stand still when autoing, despite the short-range jump after. To ignore that on Kalista is bias. > 2) Senna's damage doesn't come close to Kalista's. It may be in bursts but it's certainly not SAFE bursts, and it takes a significant team to protect her so she can do those bursts. So basically, you're saying I'm right. Got it. > 3) Kalista has a much better Hard CC. A CC that requires level 6 and your ally to be nearby isn't "much better Hard CC." Situationally better, but very often not better at all. Otherwise Kalista would be picked just a little bit more than 1.7% vs Senna's 26.5% global pickrate. It really sounds like you're trying to argue that Senna has more flaws than Kalista.
Or..... Kalista..... like Nidalee, Elise, Irelia..... her tasking gives people headaches in micro management, and very real hand conditions caused by typing in a specific pattern or trying to master control over their positioning. Senna is new. Kalista never ever even had a player base, even when she was broken. Something about her design never appealed to the broad player base. Kind of like how Zoe doesn't appeal to the general player base. Or how even though potentially strong, Zilean never has had player base appeal. How often do you see a Skarner? The fact is, aesthetic appeal is always a factor, and Kalista doesn't have it. She's monochrome, her voiceovers are bland, her skill set isn't flashy.... and she takes a lot of work to play. I'm going to sound biased for voicing my opinion, but League only has a few appealing girls who pull off the pretty nonwhite nonasian theme: {{champion:420}} Pulls off the big strong athletic girl. {{champion:246}} pulls off "thicc" and more culturally current. {{champion:235}} pulls off the perfect 10. Kalista has never had any of those appeals (and is probably why Senna was reinvented with a Fleshy character!). And notice..... all three came after Kalista.
: You ever had a double seraphs Ezreal before?
far better comps than relying on one single target champion to do everything. Jeweled Gauntlet + IE Syndra generates mana and kills FAR quicker than Ezreal. Brand almost gaurantees the kill on 5 out of 9. LeBlanc + IE + Gauntlet+ Runaan's kills faster than Ezreal with 2 Seraph. Ezreal is not Kha Zix with 2 Seraphs.
: Senna also gets a 20% MS boost every time she auto attacks. :) She also both significantly out-ranges Kalista and deals her damage in bursts. :) She also has hard CC and an ADDITIONAL 20% MS from her mist. :) Keep telling yourself that Senna has the worst kiting in the game. She's not the best, but she's nowhere near the worst.
1) she literally freezes herself when autoing or skilling. SHE STANDS STILL. Kalista doesn't. 2) Senna's damage doesn't come close to Kalista's. It may be in bursts but it's certainly not SAFE bursts, and it takes a significant team to protect her so she can do those bursts. 3) Kalista has a much better Hard CC.
Revech (NA)
: You could also proc gold by detaching for an auto.
why are you ressing a convo from 7 months ago?
: That's not the point. Its her attack speed. Slows basically decrease her attack speed to the point where you're better off standing still and auto attacking; something no other ADC has to do. Considering slows are the most common form of CC in the game and are pretty much tacked onto EVERYTHING without a thought towards power budget on Riot's part, that's a very big deal and results in you being unable to kite in most cases. An ADC that can't kite is the epitome of useless.
Yet you try to argue that Senna IS useful :) With her awesome 15 second cooldowns and 20% Max move speed. Senna literally has the worst kiting in the game.
: She's very different from when she was in the LCS. The amount of slows, especially point/click (hint: blue smite), on the enemy team directly correlates to your viability as Kalista now.
Meh. her hops are still large enough on slow to avoid most skill shots :S
: >how are diamonds so good in most cases they're not >how are they so different from plats? The biggest difference is their mechanics, sometimes it's a decent wave management, and very rarely a overall good macro. Nowadays, having a basic knowledge of the game while being good mechanically almost guarantees you a diamond. I did some kind of challenge, practised kalista and got dia 3 on euw with 61%wr playing only her. She's got the worst wr on her role, and on top of that I'm playing only support for over 2 seasons, so I guess you've already figured out how it looks like lmao
I'll be the first to say...... I never mastered Kalista. However, I don't think she feels all that different from when she was pulling 72% in LCS. The only real problem I see with her being able to get that 61% on someone whose mastered her is the fact that her damage requires some long setups where other adcs don't. E > Auto > W > Auto > Q Caitlyn is just so much easier than Kalista and happens much faster. I know that after built a bit Kalista can mitigate the time factor a bit, but I generally think that's why people don't try to master her: They don't like the windup to overperformance. I will say I enjoy being Nami, getting ulted by Kalista, Knocking up a duo, Q'ing them, and then having an opporttunity to ult myself to knock up again, and then if everything was timed correctly, getting to Q AGAIN. Friggin nuts.
: How are plat players and diamonds different?
From my experience: Platinum is an elo where people understand their champs, most other champions and are cautious about overreaching in farming to harass too often. They understand the difference in value between 8-9 CS a minute and attempting and failing to engage a champion. They generally watch their mana, and communicate warding. However, they generally still lack the ability to transition smoothly from playing defensively to playing offensively. Diamonds generally do that better.
Periclum (NA)
: Senna and Soul Generation via Spoils of War
I'm confused what you're asking. Senna executing a minion with a Relic shield is her killing it. So yeah.... it would have the 5.5% rate (soon to be only 1.86%) It's not like as a Relic shield build you kill a "Lot" of minions.
: You do know that Senna Q is just as long as those range skills and goes through everything? Plus the auto attack range is better on a AA hybrid like senna since she can get attacks off. And I don't want to sound like an ass but you are a horrible judge of whats wrong or not. You were preaching Senna was fine while abusing her and everyone disagreed. And now riot themselves even admitted she was not fine. Your opinion on senna has already shown to be flawed vs actual stats,alot of players,streamers in challenger tier, and riot themselves. So I don't think anyone here is going to take your word on whats strong or not about senna.
Wtf are you even trying to argue by saying > Plus the auto attack range is better on a AA hybrid like senna since she can get attacks off. Restate your argument. But no. She has to get to 600 range to stack early game. Which means she's extremely vulnerable. If you attempt to poke with Auto/Q you tend to almost ALWAYS take damage. These are the games where you get 10-13 deaths. I'm totally "abusing her." With my almighty 43% Win rate as Support I'm totally abusing her. (I'm a Diamond Support player) Riot hasn't admitted anything. They are focusing nerfs that are small enough to acquiesce commentators like you who think she's the most broken thing in the world at a completely normal performance rate compared to what are generally normal win rates/pick rates (They did say that if there were problems they would try to trim back her playing as an Adc, which is what they are doing, while trying VERY hard not to touch her as a Support, while you and others try to argue she's broken AS A WHOLE. People should take my word because I'm actually attempting to experience her, whereas 59% of you can't,..... don't even want to imagine playing her/against her after watching some BunnyFuFu video where he went 60 kills with his own team's designated jungler player Vi to set him up for a snowball at level 2, and the other team agreeing not to surrender to be on Youtube. The more ironic truth is that she's just an average champion as a support, getting banned because people imagine low skill champs having some large delta of improved accomplishment as people master her. The actual reality is: She has a lot of counters, and the best performances you're going to find with her as a support is generally those who do NOT poke too much, but instead behave passively, and just try to acquire stacks, heal, and ult the occasional out of place teammate who needs a shield. If you attempt to be aggressive, you will be punished. Period. If you do a lot less, you win a lot more. This contrasts from playing her top or adc: Top; there's not many champions who can toe to toe her directly. They have to play like they do vs any adc top: Passive, and wait for your chance to flash in and kill her. Early game, she wins hard when directly facing most tops. However, once the game gets going and she isn't top, most top champs outlevel/outscale her and usually can catch her and delete her (Garen at level 11+ with his new attack speed build can both outrun her, and kill her in 2 seconds of spin). The only top I've seen beat Senna is a RIven. Riven can just play the game well enough that she can gap close Senna and dodge her W easily. Once she does, RIven just controls the fight. Adc: Adc Senna is carried by the fact she can have a support. Keep in mind: I've NEVER argued she can't snowball. I've argued she's not "Broken." With a hard CC support, Snowballs are MUCH easier and MUCH sooner, since her W can stack with a support CC and give her plenty of time to snowball. After she starts the snowball, ofc she's going to gain much more stacks than she would have. Ofc she's going hit milestones earlier. Ofc people are going to rage. All I'm saying is Senna getting 53-54% as adc was because a 50% champ was enabled by supports who are also failing to see nerfs. Not because of Solo performance.
dont bother (EUNE)
: while conqueror may stack really fast on Ryze he loses out on the safety/speed (self peel from phase rush), cdr, and scaling from the gathering storm. There are other champions that utilizes conqueror way harder than ryze for example cassiopeia. I don't care how a ryze dominated your silver games just because you all sucked. A hardstuck silvers' clueless opinion who doesnt even play the champion doesnt matter i guess as well.
Good. I'm glad he dominates Silver. I'm Diamond II.
: > Her Autos do not get "extra range," > Senna also gains Range icon 25 bonus range mmmm > Armor works the same way as Season 1 except now theres way more ways to pen through armor than before, like {{item:3071}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3147}} just to name a few building full tank is way more expensive and less efficient than just going damage now because _riot doesnt like tanks_ > 3) I do more damage with Nami than Senna EVERY GAME. AND more heals. AND more CC. "i do this" "i do that" anecdotes dont trump stats, right now people are picking her because she heals AND dps nearly on par WITH her adc and when she goes adc herself she excells at supporting her team WITH her support WHILE ddealing tons of damage. she needs to either have her kit toned down equally or actually nerfing either her support or adc side of her kit because right now shes overwhelming with both. > 4) Nautilus is near 20% pick rate. Garen is 14% Ashe 14%. Nami 20% Pick rate has no correlation with champ age. nautilis: 13.3% / garen: 8.2% / ashe: 11.1% / nami: 7.5% senna: 19.3% mmmmmmmmm > 5) No. Other than Akali, their kits are pretty simple. MMMMMMMM
1) BC existed and was stronger. LDR is weaker than Season 1-4 Last Whisper, and more expensive. Duskblade/Lethality just got a huge nerf of Lethality per item. (only 10-18 now, not 22-28). Furthermore, we got a buff on rune armor/resist, and Mountain Drake now gives Armor/Resist. Randuin's didn't used to have Crit damage reduction. Thornmail used to only be 80 Armor. Dead Man's Plate didn't exist. Righteous Glory was reworked and made stronger. I'll keep doing more damage on full tank Morgana than AP Morgana. By all means. 2) I'm a diamond II Nami player. And I do both high damage AND heals. She is not overwhelming with either. 3)Don't look at just Challenger....
: That brutally fucks you against mages? Clumping yourself up is just begging to watch a {{champion:134}} nuke you with a double cast. Same with {{champion:63}} the less distance between targets the faster the bounces, the faster you die.
tbh I don't even need a double cast on Syndra. 1890 hits :)
Nea104 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Heroboy10,realm=EUNE,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=cVRV3mhO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-03T14:19:57.481+0000) > > You don't know what is you next opponent. Indeed, and still they called it "tactics" :D
You can compile an idea based on trying to position vs 4-5 generally and "win the averages." Furthermore, you can still assess their comps, and elemental nodes tend to give you a general idea how people are going to play anyways by where they are positioned.
: i.e. https://imgur.com/20DUVEm
Wth is that comp though?
: > 1) If she's in range to Q > Auto, she's no less vulnerable than any other support to be counterpoked. In fact she has one of the highest death rates as Support. its easy for her since she gets that added range, plus if you have bush control youll nearly always get a q auto combo off safely, and its easy to get bush control as a support than can deal both damage and healing > 2) Armor is not garbage its garbage hun, doesnt matter how you try to spin it, riot doesnt like tanks so they nerfed armor to high hell, its garbage. plus other adcs dont get to have heals along with their trades until adequate lifesteal comes in but at that point the laning phase is over > 3) Average ally heal for Senna a game is 4000-7000. Average overall is 16-17k. I can heal for 30k + on Nami or Soraka EVERY GAME. nami doesnt get a global shield and damage ult or long range %health damage or a team invis and soraka doesnt deal damage. > 4) She's no longer new that 19% pickrate says otherwise > 5) Akali is the second highest skill cap champ in the game. Yuumi is 50%+, and they are simply adjusting her to more of a full support than a damage dealer. It's not a nerf. Pyke is currently underperforming because they went too far on turning him into a 1 skill champion. About the only thing left for him is his ult and the gold that comes with it. Ofc they are going to rework that. They nerfed everything else he hard so far that they gave him literally 70% of his power budget in his ult. and guess what they all have in common, overbloated kits, just like senna (and the yuumi change is 100% a nerf, they just made her "lulu w the champion" they gutted her niche of popping in and out by giving her w a channel and nerfing her q. the only reason to pick her up is for her e buffs now but then lulu actually has a kit PLUS yuumi e buff)
1) 600 Range in lane is nothing vs 1175/1300/900/800/725 range skills. Her Autos do not get "extra range," and unlike other adcs, she can't orb to avoid skill shots. 2) Armor works the same way as Season 1, exists in greater amounts. The only problem: NO ONE BUILDS IT AND EXPECTS TO LIVE FOREVER IF THEY DO. Tank Perspective on Armor: "Gee I'd like to take 60-70 shots instead of 15 before I die." Everyone else's perspective on armor: "If I can't kill them in 5 hits, I'm dead to CC." Reality: Armor is the difference between being 2 shot and being 10-15 shot depending on the item in this game. It's not Immortality, nor should it. (Try building a Randuin's on an Illaoi sometime and then having a Caitlyn poke her. It'll take 12 shots to kill Illaoi running away). 3) I do more damage with Nami than Senna EVERY GAME. AND more heals. AND more CC. And the fact you claim Soraka doesn't do damage just reeks of being a nub. Her Q is one of the most loaded offensive self healers in the GAME. She easily racks up 30k damage a game if she levels Q. It's by CHOICE that Soraka's level E (also damage) and W. 4) Nautilus is near 20% pick rate. Garen is 14% Ashe 14%. Nami 20% Pick rate has no correlation with champ age. 5) No. Other than Akali, their kits are pretty simple. Yuumi and Pyke are not high skill. They are Rework corrupted. There's a difference. Pyke was fine before they converted him to full Lethality. Yuumi Change is a greater heal, heal available more often and her W is almost getting DOUBLED. Mana on hit is being brought back. .2 Second Channel isn't going to change anything except mid fight swapping, out to shield and go back. She can still change rides.
dont bother (EUNE)
: Phase rush is still far superior as a main keystone for Ryze, stop over exaggerating conqueror on him, it may be good as a keystone but there are far superior runes Ryze can take that will benefit him more. I've been maining Ryze here and there for 2 years so I'm pretty sure i know more about what I'm talking about than you do.
2 years don't matter when the change that broke the synergy occurred in the last 3 weeks :) You really have no clue; there's actually a conquerer nerf on PBE right now that directly cites Ryze.
: > 1) The 1-16% only occurs if you hit twice her base combo is q auto, so she WILL proc the %damage > 2) Her crit at best increases her damage by 30%. You keep ignoring that fact. 200 AD can only crit for at best 260, reduced by armor, Randuin's and Ninja Tabis. armor has been _garbage_ for a while and part of her main build is {{item:3033}} so even LESS armor, plus she also builds {{item:3147}} and {{item:3031}} so shes doing EVEN MORE damage. > 3) Heal is lower than other healers, on a 15 second cooldown, and the damage is mediocre too. wow, a slightly lower heal than other champs designed for healing while getting more damage, range, and utility. what a drawback. damage is definitely not mediocre, see last point. > 4) She's literally a 50% Win rate support after these changes. Down from a 51% Support. SO OP. cause shes the new champ??? people are still trying her out and shifting her winrate all over the place? besides, champs like {{champion:84}} {{champion:350}} {{champion:555}} are at 41-47% wr and theyre still being changed because of their bloated kits
1) If she's in range to Q > Auto, she's no less vulnerable than any other support to be counterpoked. In fact she has one of the highest death rates as Support. 2) Armor is not garbage and mitigates any lethality she gains from Duskblade or Glaive etc. The only champion on a team that generally fears her Lethality is an adc, and adc scales FULLY with crit. so most trades favor other adcs. Senna's at late game crits are only about 450-500 damage at MOST. Early game at level 10 she hits about 200. Most adcs by that point are hitting over 350-400. 3) Average ally heal for Senna a game is 4000-7000. Average overall is 16-17k. I can heal for 30k + on Nami or Soraka EVERY GAME. 4) She's no longer new; her weaknesses are huge, and her learning curve is NOT. 5) Akali is the second highest skill cap champ in the game. Yuumi is 50%+, and they are simply adjusting her to more of a full support than a damage dealer. It's not a nerf. Pyke is currently underperforming because they went too far on turning him into a 1 skill champion. About the only thing left for him is his ult and the gold that comes with it. Ofc they are going to rework that. They nerfed everything else he hard so far that they gave him literally 70% of his power budget in his ult.
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Illabethe

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