: Right. Sure. And you're kept behind by your team. Just like it was the better botlane last season, or the better jungler the season before, or lag previously, or their OP champion, or whatever goddamned excuse you decided to come up with for your loss. Can we stop reciting the same conspiracy theory over and over? Thanks.
Read the points above as to why it's not a conspiracy and instead is just a theory. Or don't and continue to find every thread like this to comment on, as if anyone in them really cares about what you have to say because they all know you're doing it. It's a waste of your energy and it's a waste of mine to respond.
Kai Guy (NA)
: My intent was to provide an exaggerated but very Clear example of what a higher skill player looks like and I opted to use one who is considered to be one of the very best. If you want to see examples of very very bad MM simply make a new account and slog thru the new player experience like I am doing currently and you see a dramatic difference between Ranked Vs being a level 4 account. New player experience btw is awfull and Entirely worth investing more Resources into to help. Mentor style programs with incentives I think have potential as a viable fix but that's my opinion for a solution. Skill discrepancy is expected at high uncertainty. That's just the nature of the beast. The feeders don't filter out if their good games balance out the shitty ones. It takes consistently failing to match expectations to see some one move up or down to a new class interval. Riots systems could use improvement. The common complaints are off target and many posters don't adhere to the basic principles that would be relevant. So if Riot is dishonest AF and uses a non MMR system? Well … The way to check for that would be to understand what a MMR system is. You train people how to find counter fit money by having them study the real thing. If Riot does exactly what they say and use a MMR system? The argument its "forced" or "rigged" Is going to be ignored completely because the devs who run that know very well that No... its not forced or rigged some ones talking out their ass. So I step up and defend MMR and correct people who say things that do not conform to realistic expectations to have. I don't intend to project onto others, My goal here is to help folks understand the concepts behind the system enough that they can also see things that generate negative experience. I do have some personal stake in doing this cuz i play the dam game and I see to many Losses because some NA player gives up and rolls over like a fucking idiot when 1 lane is down 2 kills. Again you study the real thing to prove something is fake. Posts like this one. FORCED 50% and Champion WR. Like.. There is no body to this post but look at how many upvotes the guy gets. No account for skill floors, or ceelings. If your playing this game i dont understand how some one feels that not all champions are on the same scale, and that's normal in games with individual kits. Complaints about MM? Back to season 1. You find them. Every single year, you find them. RIGGED MM... Take a look. [Smite](http://forums.smitegame.com/showthread.php?183805-HiRez-Smite-really-needs-to-fix-their-shit)? > Match making is trash. They put you in with shitters who play the same damn characters and f6 because they’re garbage. Then after having to deal with these garbage ass players, they put you in another match with the fuckers who ended the last game you were in, playing the same character they were trashhhhhh with. I chose not to make a selection because of the trash player they paired me with for the second time, and I get deserter “240 minutes”. Quit putting me in matches with the same trash, and I wouldn’t have to decide it’s not worth playing. I’ve spent 1000’s of dollars on this game! And I’d like to have fun. Not get stuck with noob ass shit. That's poped up when i checked their boards. Lets try another game. [Dota 2?](https://steamcommunity.com/app/570/discussions/0/3185654583880244642/) > WTF is this match making? I am Archon II, and I just had a game where enemy team had ANCIENT III & LEGEND II and all archons while my team had Archon III and Crusader V. It was entire one sided game ofcouse we lost badly 44-10 This is totally unfair I mean why not match making give only archons level player in both my team and enemy team. This happens after I won 2 games they put me and my team against ancient and legend. And none of them had higher mmr than 2k which was total bs That's from about 3 hours ago. HOTS? [Take ](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20769427278) [Your ](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/heroes/t/crappy-mmr-system/23798) [Pick](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/heroes/t/what-is-wrong-with-ur-mmr-system/3125/3). [Battlerite](https://steamcommunity.com/app/504370/discussions/0/1640912849399064209/)? This one was a bit harder to find. had to scroll thru 7 pages with a bunch of OMG DEAD GAME! posts. So... Players Bitching about MM in PVP team games? This is nothing new. Yet... in any given game the Players who can and will sit down, use the mathematical equations, and explain what the devs are doing that does not adhere to the principles? Good luck finding those posts. I try to do it for league. You ever seen anybody else who can talk people thru class interval generation? But look at how unpopular my posts are in this thread. Fucking reminds me of Galatians 4:16 man. So Why? Because I tell people that personal impact matters and you cant write of your impact in a large # system? meh. Option A. the systems used by almost every Dev are inherently non functional. Going from posters and frequency of complaints then no MM Is functional if you blindly trust folks on a boards making that claim. Option B. People with no education on a topic almost never know what the fuck they are talking about. You decide what reflects reality. Till some one whos making the claim Riot is lying provides the burden of proof I see no reason to change my mind. I do change my mind btw, I try to be self correcting. That's how you grow. #scientificmethodyall Riot can do better but Claims for forced or Rigged with out providing any fucking proof or evidence should be ignored when you can observe a very fucking clear gap in skill between bottom and top of the ladder. You can do that for league. You can not use MMR for rigged MM because the very act of doing that removes ANY fucking relation of SKILL TO MMR. How the hell can I pound this simple point home to people?
You're still missing the point: compared to previous seasons and even other games, complaints about the matchmaking are far more common. Want me to total it up? Sources will be [HotS general boards](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/heroes/c/general-discussion) and [HotS competitive boards](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/heroes/c/competitive-discussion) for HotS, and [the search function set to search every board](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/search?query=Matchmaking&application_id=PEr1qIcT&created_from=now-1d&content_type=discussion) for LoL. Within the last 24 hours from 7:10 A.M CDT on 8/18/2019, there has been one complaint about matchmaking on the HotS boards. Within the last 7 days, there have been 3 total complaints about matchmaking. I'll humor you and go back a month, only to find 12 posts total criticizing matchmaking. Same query for LoL though, 23 within the first month alone... only on the first three pages of the search. Within the past week, we've got 18 complaints on the first page. Within the past day, 7... reduced to 5 if you don't include tenuous ones or the ones that'll surpass 24 hours in 2 hours. Unlike LoL, the HotS design team has actually addressed complaints, proving they care enough to... well, fix a common issue, even if they may not have solved the problem. What has LoL's design team done about the innumerable (literally; Riot's 'sort by age of post' function is useless so I don't know how many posts I've missed) complaints? Nothing at all. I could get into the fact that their acknowledgement in and of itself has likely caused the massive downturn in posts about matchmaking on their boards, but... hey, why would I need to? I just have to ask you, when do you stop being an apologist and start thinking about what people have to say? Even if I'm the only one able to articulate shit like this, everyone else has been **saying** it. I'm acting as an amalgamation of what they have had to say. Claims that the matchmaking is fine and _not_ rigged despite countless pieces of evidence to say otherwise is naïve. You're defending them with proof you don't have, with evidence you don't have and with knowledge that's both flawed and _not your own._ You don't even have any examples, because you _know_ they're flawed: you'll post about how the five people on your team and the enemy team are perfectly-matched with a screencap, and someone else posts about a Bronze 4 on their Gold 2 team w/ their own screencap. None of us know the statistic used to determine that "matchmaking" and, weirdly, they don't seem intent on showing it to us. It's indicative of something more nefarious. If it's so easy to prove us wrong, why won't they just... say... replace LP with MMR? Or show us the two side-by-side? Or show us both on a match-by-match basis? Or release the source code for the matchmaking? If their matchmaking does work as you say it does then there's no reason for them to be afraid of releasing it to the public, if people already know how it works. ...or maybe they do change it to suit their own ends? Seems like the logical conclusion. The same system that matches a full Gold team against a full Gold team is the same one that matches a full Bronze team against a full Gold team. None of us have our MMR -- a statistic -- to look at and compare, we only have a pseudo-statistic (LP, divisions and leagues) that doesn't even do the job it's meant to!
Teh Song (NA)
: honestly how good or bad people are isn't even relevant to winrate, it's just such an idiotic complaint. I don't understand how/why some people don't understand what *no matter what skill you are* you'll get a 50% winrate and it's not because it's being forced on you, it's just what happens if matchmaking is any good.
> [{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fOPPEWdw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-17T21:40:58.093+0000) > > honestly how good or bad people are isn't even relevant to winrate, it's just such an idiotic complaint. > I don't understand how/why some people don't understand what *no matter what skill you are* you'll get a 50% winrate and it's not because it's being forced on you, it's just what happens if matchmaking is any good. Concerns are if the matchmaking is good. A lot of people of all ranks have been saying it's bad, and the only evidence supports the claim. Anyone on the other side's missing any evidence or proof that the matchmaking is good, so the former side's arguments are more compelling on a logical basis and -- as of now -- the people who deny there's a problem with it are akin to flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers. Btw, I say this thinking I'm a rank above where I deserve to be. Beat that, > [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fOPPEWdw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-17T20:21:34.012+0000) > > Alotta people suck ass at this game but don't/can't admit it, it has to be riots fault they aren't winning > > I'm fully aware of how bad I am at least Oh, and what about Faker complaining about it? D+ players? When will you stop trying to dismiss it with your own form of the null hypothesis theory box, where the possibility of anything else is alien because you declare it wrong but then you refuse to see the possibility it may be correct because you declare it alien?
Kai Guy (NA)
: Right, In other words Even the standard or lower MMR players can clearly see and understand there are higher skill players and that if a clear and large Gap in skill exists it generates Impact on winning games. That's a Fair statement on my part yes? On the flip side, having a Bot on your team run it down mid all game? That's a clear lack of skill and a Negative impact for the teammates right? Fair statement?
False equivalency. The impact of a bot -- something that actually _does_ fix itself even if it destroys a few matches on the way to doing so -- has nothing on the impact of matchmaking itself. If ranks were decided by skill, there wouldn't be such a vast & visible disparity... which never seems to get "better" as time goes on, like your theory of matchmaking should suggest. Seriously, if all the feeders were to 'filter out', why are they still in my game? You know what's even funnier? The fact that there are more and more matchmaking complaints, season-to-season. S6 it almost always met the response you gave: it's your fault, not the matchmaking's. Now? It's pretty much unanimous that it's rigged. I think you might be changing your tune, if you were present in S6 actively railing against the few threads that were here. Kai, this is just you projecting your own fundamentals onto everyone else like they share the same thoughts, opinions or mindset. You're still using an ideal variation of their matchmaking **as if that's what they use when you have no proof they do.** You are left to **speculate** & **guess** without information. Being a software coder or matchmaking algorithm designer only informs you on their creation. You don't know what they'll be used for, in the hands of the patent owners. You don't know how it'll be changed to suit them, unless you sold it to them under the written condition that they cannot make any changes whatsoever (which is strangely unpopular!) You can guess what they may change and how, but... that's exactly what you're doing: guessing! You made the toy, you sold it... and that's where your responsibility and control ends. You can't change how they use the toy, even if they don't use it for the intended purpose.
Kai Guy (NA)
: So... If you MM by win %? A bad player would Have to be put on a good players team to make each team have a Fair WR yes? Why the fuck do you feel that some one who has say 80% WR being kneecapped with a 20% teammate to get the team average to balance out would be better MM. That's literally rigging MM and rewards weak players and harms good ones. As it stands RNG distribution is fair when MM range is tight enough that it does not exceed a class interval. That's why exceeding the Standard deviation results in Rating changes to new class intervals. How come your not account for Skill gaps? Like WR is expected to change when some one is outclassed... Its not magicaly gonna sink them prior to playing games. They lose or win vs the range MM uses off their MMR value so they shift to reflect the probability expectations. So.. a 1200 Rated player only keeps that if they stay in with in the standard Deviation expectations (σ) for the probability modle used. Ea. 1200 constantly loses to 1200 they drop in points until their Score = Their win % with the context of who they play. Lose 3/4 games to a 1200 players? In Elo's OG that would end up set you to a raiting of 1000. Also there is a finite population in a game so there will be a Mode you can use to build your mean averages. Gonna be represented in the starting MMR value on all accounts. You cant say above average or below average if theres no average to use for that comparison. (sorry silver players, I know that can be rough for yall.) Where do you discuss in your rank the impact low # of games makes? some one with only 1 match has either a 100% or a 0% WR. Any reason you think streaks matter? Or set 3 as a value of any meaning? Like... lets use 50% odds. here is a [visualization ](https://www.random.org/coins/?num=100&cur=60-usd.0025c-ga)of that for you. Behold how often something is in a streak of 3 or more. Any coin that's not 1 or 2 with out change is part of a "streak" Now set 10 as a streak and see how it almost never happens. Then set 20. Crazy how much change in # of streaks and % of results that are part of a streak change when your Value for a streak increases. Also MMR is a balance WTF does a streak have to do with anything? The order the come in is irrelevant. WWWL = WlWW = LWWW =WWLW. W and L are win and loss but they represent a numeric variable of change. That change would be the same any time the K and WE variables are identical so the order is irrelevant. Lets say W=5 and L= -7 5+5+5-7= 5-7+5+5= -7+5+5+5 = 5+5-7+5. how shocking! apparently if you solve the for the equation you find that 8=8=8=8. And why would you expect to win with a weak team. Like your on a streak... ok. Regardless of how long it is, when you get folks who do badly... you should expect to lose yea? Everybody on my team was by far the better player this game and that's why we lost. In what world would that be logical? Please educate yourself on the topic befor you go around telling folks this is how it is. The excuse of Elo hell or Rigged matchmaker gives stuck players an excuse to just give up and roll over in games and that's a net negative for gameplay. Don't encourage halfass players. Also I did like you asked and checked your op.gg and I cant say i am really impressed by you being rated as 10th that jhin loss with a score of 0-6-0.
As a player who thinks he deserves high Bronze while being in high Silver, think the matchmaking is rigged in some way or other. I've played HotS, DotA2, even more recent games like Apex Legends, and think this matchmaking is discernibly worse at matching people of equal skill up against one-another. DotA2 is a more snowball-heavy game, so the current game-state can't be to blame. HotS is a more team-based experience, so the reliance on your team can't be blamed. If you look at my match history, you'll find a consistent streak of... streaks. WWWWWW followed by LLLLLL in that order. The chance a W follows another W is around 25% at your skill level. The chance another win follows that is 12.5%. The chance another win follows that is 6.25%. The chance another win follows that is 3.125%. The chance another win follows that is 1.5625%. The chance another win follows that is 0.78125%. That happening in a consistent array of 'streaks' is even more unlikely, but yet so common. Now that you know the math, do you really intend to say that something with a 0.01% chance to occur occurring constantly is statistically _normal?_ It happens at every rank, too. People from Diamond have been complaining. Even Faker has criticized it. You also don't have any proof their matchmaking isn't rigged! It's called the 'null hypothesis theory', almost a fallacy, where you need to prove not only that there's another answer but that the **current** answer is wrong. 'God doesn't exist and you need to prove that God does' without any reason to think God doesn't exist in the first place. It's reversible, too: 'God does exist and you need to prove that God doesn't.' You only have an idealized version of how it 'should' work, and you're talking about it like that's how it *does* work... which you don't know. A dishonest way to debate. What **undeniable proof, non-hypothesis,** even evidentially, can you provide that shows matchmaking is working as intended? Evidence including your match history being a 50/50 of interspersed wins and losses? Well-done... now you could be the statistical anomaly. How about, instead, picking 100 people from one rank and then scanning their match history for streak-based similarities like I have, Kai Guy? If you want to find the truth, maybe try something like that instead of telling them about **your** matchmaking system, which Riot -- the company the criticism is targeted at -- most likely does not use. Remember that mention that I'm Silver despite being Bronze an every level? I still think I lose games I have no right to lose, where my team is **somehow even worse than I am** after a streak of wins where my team is as good as I am, or better. I know that I'd **lose ranks** if the matchmaking was better, but I also know I could finally rest at ease knowing what I need to improve upon.
: His shield is broken op. Invulnerability while doing damage is an ultimate level ability. Sivir, Fiora, Malz, etc. can block one ability and that's all his should be able to do - not soak up everything - even auto attacks.
Sivir's restores mana, Fiora's blocks CC **and** redirects it, Malzahar's blocks CC **and is not an active ability**, it isn't the problem I don't think. It lasts, at worst, as long as Fiora's and does about as much damage. It's on a longer CD, though, to make up for the fact it does scale unlike her W.
: Making solo queue really seriously SOLO by disallowing duos would alleviate a lot of the problems caused by smurfs and bad matchmaking in general. A ranked hard reset has been in order ever since the season 6 disaster.
The irony in having people complain about how team-oriented the game is, and how one garbage player can ruin the match for you... while you want to alleviate the only method there is to remove at least _one_ of those garbage players from your match through duos. "Just play Flex" isn't a valid response when Flex is currently a dumpster-fire of smurfs, trolls and A.F.K players... which is, you know, why FlexQ is meme'd on. Maybe they could actually fix the matchmaking instead of bandaging the gaping wound and hoping it goes away? Nah. I guarantee if you guys get your way you'll be having an even bigger problem w/ the matchmaking.
: yasuo windwall cant block everything, fiora parry supposed to block everything, everything, everything......
Turret-shots are noted specifically to be unblockable, unparryable and undodgable. Yasuo's wall can't block turret shots, Jax can't dodge them, and Fiora can't parry them. Note that they're all already great at diving under enemy tower, so you don't need to make them better and/or more broken at it.
: so you are complaining that pantheon has counterplay from now on?
HAHAHAHAHA Dude, it's just a synopsis. Quit being cynical.
Rioter Comments
CLG ear (NA)
: alcohol dulls the part of the brain that controls your inhibitions, so you are more outspoken and take more risks
> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Fmq19YXQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-28T06:20:49.779+0000) > > alcohol dulls the part of the brain that controls your inhibitions, so you are more outspoken and take more risks That's a pretty simple explanation. Cool! I still kinda' want to know more about the physiology and neurology behind it though.
: > [{quoted}](name=Linda de Mol,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAR4iZb7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-25T23:06:52.994+0000) > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xb5E5lyd-why-cant-we-4-1-surrender-at-15-mins > > Posted this yesterday and people went nutsies Because the board knights want to believe the game is nearly perfect and comebacks are always possible through the power of friendship uwu
"You're an asshole, but you're _our_ asshole." I'm sure that describes how the boards feel about you ;) It's a complement.
: And autofill is really rare if you main anything that isn't mid. So, it doesn't even ruin as many games as people say it does. Especially if you get filled and you are the only one doing well. Can't be fill that ruined _that_ game lmao
I've been filled jungle a bit too many times for 'rare' to be the right word.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Match average is below your MMR. LP gains are slanted to move your Title towards your MMR. It will correct when you balance average. It will slant again if you drop or get above it. Its not just WR% its also about who your playing.
I don't mean to offend, but I'm starting to think you're just projecting an idealized version of the matchmaking onto Riot because of what you've invested into them. A 54% winrate would mean that, no matter what, they win more games than they lose; Slanting LP gains to bring them closer to their 'true' rank is in direct contradiction to their winrate. Not only that, but they actually begun losing more LP after winning so much. That is all kinds of fucked. Even moreso if LP is slanted based on who you pick/play. At this point, they should just give or take LP dependent on your personal performance. It won't be that difficult to implement, as they have a similar system for champion mastery (S+ to D-) and it works in a very similar way: if your average [tower damage/champion damage/cc score/ward score/roam score/etc.] for that rank is, well, above the net. average for that rank, you lose less LP and/or gain more. Towers have finite health, as do objectives, so it's probably wisest to at the very least make tower damage an important, deciding stat. I've won games more than I've lost 'em despite being 0/7/7, due to my power at pushing towers and lanes and, eventually, the nexus. It's easy to prevent abuse by adding something like (cap = tower damage +3/s) to account for the HP regen of the tower, so you can't just farm tower damage by waiting for it to recoup the lost health. Same goes for dragon or baron -- resets do not count towards your 'performance score'.
: Welp,to climb isnt necessary skill right now,all u need to do its play on days that u have 90% winrate and dont even bother to play if u get 2 losts in a row. This is obviously stupid,even if u go 22/1 and stomp jglr and top lane u will most likely loose,you look at your bot and even if they got advantage they will throw,i got from g3 to d4 in 2 weeks,after that i couldnt just spam and win games cuz their players were better than just plat or gold,so all i can do right now go get higher than d3 its just wait for good days and abuse them. I agree that they do that to make a player that plays 10 hours a day dont get high elo and stop playing once he reaches challenger.
You're not wrong, but now I'm wondering if I can gauge a good or bad day by the alignment of the stars, the country's newest news, or the number of disasters that occur. It sounds like I'm making fun of you, but outside of Riot trolling their audience it's all I can think of: that the state of the world, for the day, is the decider of how many toxic asshats you meet.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAR4iZb7,comment-id=0006000200040000,timestamp=2019-07-27T00:55:24.411+0000) > > Non-sequiturs aren't the best way to start yourself off. > > Anyway, I could say that the 4 people who decide that their time is being wasted playing this single match out for any number of reasons are all~ held victim by the single person who says it's a worthwhile endeavor. Forfeiting and surrendering are both viable options in any competitive environment because it dilutes toxicity and saves time. The same thing goes for an electronic sport like LoL. > > Your PoV would dictate that you get upset anytime anyone surrenders as you mash the 'No' button, yeah? It's the same hting as getting upset people no longer want to play a match that isn't fun in a game/sport meant to **be** fun. Hell, ranked ladders exist specifically because it's **fun** to go up against other similar-skilled players, or to watch the best of the best duke it out. > > You're arguing against the idea of surrendering as a whole, and I'm arguing for the vote to be reduced to a supermajority instead of complete unanymity. Maybe if the game wasn't capable of being decided @ 10 minutes, I'd agree with you and be saying that FFing is a huge waste of time, but unfortunately [the game is more often than not](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats) decided after first blood, first tower, first dragon or first inhibitor... all of which are reasonable to come across at ten minutes. > > It's not that I find your mindset abhorrent or disagreeable. In fact, I find your 'never surrender' mindset to be amiable... when it's put alongside other, like-minded people. That's why you're on this thread arguing so fervently, right? I don't, however, find it amiable to hold four people hostage because you think you're more important because of an ideal. hold up if i want to surrender and people vote no i just play the game out. if people surrender and i vote no but was 4/1 minority i'll be mildly annoyed and quickly move on. i don't personally mind it unless i was having an absolute blast. this entire suggestion just shortens games even more, what comes next is people asking for ff@10 alnd games definitly aren't decided by 10 minutes in silver or gold or maybe even plat. also never surrender is the bare minimum mentality required for a competitive environment. go play some normals if you aren't in the mindset to play games out.
but... actual sports encourage forfeiting if you're outmatched and not enjoying it, and it only requires a supermajority instead of complete unanymity. That, in and of itself, invalidates the argument that "NEVER SURRENDER" is a mindset needed for a competitive environment. I have a distinct feeling you're too set in your ways to consider the possibility of anything else, but w/e. You do you. All I know is that the games where it was a 4/1 vote in favor of surrendering @ 15 have had many, many, many (infinitely) more losses than comebacks. You can't change my mind, because I speak from experience. Have me win a game where it was 4/1 in favor of surrendering at 15 and I'll probably be rethinking it, but for now... no.
: Sure, as long as it comes with requiring 5/5 to surrender at **all** times if that criteria is not met. That seems fair enough - Lets you get out of truly lost matches faster, and prevents people from surrendering before it's actually good. Can we tack on additional criteria of "nobody on your team can have more than 2 kills than deaths"?
We're just spitballing. I seriously hope that Riot is willing to implement something like this, but yeah -- the general idea is that your team should be extremely far behind, with little to no hope of a comeback unless the enemy team suddenly loses all their chromosomes. "No-one on your team should have X more kills than Y deaths" is a good requirement as well.
Anu3isII (EUNE)
: If my whole team is doing bad and I can't see how I could help them, I do surrender. But if I know I have the possibility to work with some of them to win or even hard carry, I would still try. You focus too much on feeders while ignoring that most of the times you have valuable allies you can actually rely on. And I'm saying this very seriously: most LoL players give up way too soon just because of some early deaths. It isn't the end of the world if opposing laner gets one or two kills. It isn't the end of world if your opponents' team has advantage all over the map (unless all of you play Early Game champs, in which case something is really wrong). It is harder? Yeah, ofc, but you can always try your best to win. I'm feeling sorry for all people that feel like they are kept hostage by some measly 5 mins, but seriously... if someone votes no, then it means they still want to try to win and want to continue the match. And as I said multiple times, 5 minutes in LoL, no matter how short the period seems, can be game changing.
Maybe a solution would be to have the 4/1 vote go through if your team's behind more than 3k gold and has few to no functional hypercarries. Easy to code, easy to implement, impossible to abuse.
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAR4iZb7,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2019-07-26T04:17:31.623+0000) > > I can understand that you may come at this from a standpoint of 'I've won games like this so shut up' but can you take a moment to think about the fact that the four people in the match who think it's hopeless are being held hostage by the one person whose either griefing or feeding? > > They are not asking for it to be 3/2, they're asking for it to be 4/1 which is still a supermajority instead of complete unanymity. I have yet to see one single game, of my 600+ this season, where a FF@15 vote that 4 people have accepted and 1 has denied is unwarranted. They're games where Vayne is 15/0 to your 0/12 Illaoi and 0/3 Rammus, not games where it's your Illaoi feeding but your Caitlyn dominating. The games where your feeding Illaoi is trying to FF despite your Caitlyn being badass always have ended a minimum of 3/2, and usually end 1/4 y/n with people calling to report the Illaoi for giving up, feeding and trolling. > > Then again maybe I'm just talking to a brick wall and I'll be downvote-botted because I had the audacity to come into a thread and say something that doesn't mesh with the echo-chamber's view on things. It's like individual threads are becoming echo-chambers now. if people are so weakwilled or so egotistic that they can't play a damn game out, then the easiest option is just to uninstall. nobody wants someone like that in their ranked game. imagine downloading and playing a game just so you can not play the game and start babyraging everytime something bad happens. for normal games however, do as you please. but riot would never in their entire life even if it could save the entire universe implement a different vote system between ranked and normals. and a 4/1 majority just fucks over 1 person everytime, but nobody cares right? people who actually wanna try and win can go cry in a corner. how pathetic thinking they actually wanted to spend every effort to win. btw the only form of ''echo'' i see is whenever something happens and every individual and their mothers making a topic about it regurgitating the same sentences from every other topic, instead of nicely dumping it all into 1 big frontpage topic, instead we get 10. not to mention esport (reddit) where you might aswell rename the sub to lolesports. i see a ton of different opinions every thread and if people dont like what you say you'll just get downvoted into nihility. which chances are will happen to me, because screw me for having a different opinion
Non-sequiturs aren't the best way to start yourself off. Anyway, I could say that the 4 people who decide that their time is being wasted playing this single match out for any number of reasons are all~ held victim by the single person who says it's a worthwhile endeavor. Forfeiting and surrendering are both viable options in any competitive environment because it dilutes toxicity and saves time. The same thing goes for an electronic sport like LoL. Your PoV would dictate that you get upset anytime anyone surrenders as you mash the 'No' button, yeah? It's the same hting as getting upset people no longer want to play a match that isn't fun in a game/sport meant to **be** fun. Hell, ranked ladders exist specifically because it's **fun** to go up against other similar-skilled players, or to watch the best of the best duke it out. Sticking through a game that's not only lost, but a huge waste of time and energy on top of that, is neither fun nor healthy. You're arguing against the idea of surrendering as a whole, and I'm arguing for the vote to be reduced to a supermajority instead of complete unanymity. Maybe if the game wasn't capable of being decided @ 10 minutes, I'd agree with you and be saying that FFing is a huge waste of time, but unfortunately [the game is more often than not](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats) decided after first blood, first tower, first dragon or first inhibitor... all of which are reasonable to come across at ten minutes. It's not that I find your mindset abhorrent or disagreeable. In fact, I find your 'never surrender' mindset to be amiable... when it's put alongside other, like-minded people. That's why you're on this thread arguing so fervently, right? You're surrounded by them.
Leetri (EUW)
: To make you feel better and for it to be more tangible, that's literally the only reason and Riot has said as much. "Platinum 3" sounds more tangible than say "2378 MMR" and it's way easier to understand. If I say "3000 MMR", how do you know if that's good or bad? I'd have to tell you the scale as well for you to have any reference. But if I say "I'm diamond rank" that immediately tells you I'm pretty good, because diamonds are pretty valuable in real life.
but that's a matter of human social construct, not of what's **actual, genuine and true.** You can be Diamond with Bronze MMR, or you can be SIlver with Gold MMR. The system's meaningless to anyone involved for the reason "3,000 MMR" is meaningless to anyone who isn't: a lack of context.
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoObBgQB,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2019-07-26T03:58:14.690+0000) > > I use chat. "I'm pathing from red to raptors to wolves to blue to scuttle, prepare your enemy laner for ganks" is pretty much my go-to on match start. Or, if I need to start blue, it's reversed. It doesn't help much when they hide under enemy tower going 0/5/2, though. > > Literally, unless I play someone able to go right through the jungle in 20s flat, the lane's usually already decided without ganks by the time I kill the scuttlecrab and hit Lv4. They've either fed FB or the enemy team has. The rare games that aren't decided that quickly are usually the ones that last a while, instead of being over @ 15 or 20 because one side's so far ahead. I want to believe you but you don't even have 10 games on an actual jungler this entire season...or last season. Or the prior...it really seems like your repeating someone else.
I've had many more norms matches where I was filled to jungle, and it felt like the exact same thing: I can tell people my clear path (or ping it even) and the lane will still be decided by the time I get there, if they don't die or back when they know how long it'll take me to appear. They push up even when I make it quite obvious I'm pathing to them to gank for them, etc.
: I would change 3 things that would adjust the jungler issue. 1. Towers would get a protective aura, that gives shield ally champions in range. So if you get hard countered you can still farm under turret, and not gona be dived at lvl4. Less pressure on jungler. 2. Dragons wouldn't give permament buffs. Right now if you got a bunch of dragons, then it greatly increase your chances, and even further increase in lategame. All players are fullbuild, but the dragon buffs tip the edge. Again less pressure on jungler, because losing early wouldn't matter in late. 3. Easier jungle minions, but faster respawns. More champs would be available in jung, counter jungling wouldn't destroy you that much, and more gold, if you simply can't gank, because all lane pushed.
So basically, like it was before the drake changes a lot of people were predicting would make the game worse? Conveniently, jungling wasn't in such a bad state before then. I find it weird Riot didn't listen. The current iteration of drakes are too ingrained into the current meta to just be ripped out, but on the other hand everyone was complaining about their introduction and how they made snowballing exponentially worse... so I don't know why Rito Crackers implemented them in the first place.
: If every thread is an echo chamber against you...maybe it's you?
Every thread's becoming it's own echo-chamber of sentiment related to the title. The ones that agree with me are an echo-chamber, and the ones that don't are an echo-chamber. It's become more and more like that ever since Riot quit curating the ideas put forth; Everyone has their own reasons why the game is the way it is, and the people at Riot are too stupid to actually consider any of them, admit to any of them, and fix any of them, and because peoples' voices aren't being heard they feel like banding together into little warbands in hopes it gives them more of a voice when it doesn't. The side-effect? Downvotes from said warband for anyone who disagrees, even if they have a point. Nice non-sequitur though, I'll keep it in mind if I ever see you again.
Anu3isII (EUNE)
: Don't get me wrong, but generally when people vote for ff they most of the times vote based on their own performance and (in case the team is doing really bad) the team's performance. I personally had plenty of games in my years of playing this game where I either was really fed and/or a hyper carry like Kass and my allies would still want to surrender 4/1 despite my performance just because they had a bad time in that game. While it can be a 4/1 vote, it doesn't change the fact that it is still a very early vote and the game still has chances to be turned around. Hyper carries scale, bullies become weaker and gold advantages can decrease significantly if said team plays safe and farms. It may not be "fun" for some players to play as the underdogs, but that is part of the competitive League. If people don't even try when they are on losing side, then why should anyone play this game? Just for easy wins? I agree with you that sometimes, maybe the vote should work when 4/1, but definitely it would result in lots of winnable games being thrown away, just because your team gave up. Giving up isn't okay and it is a reportable aspect of league if it leads to suboptimal play. And, frankly I don't consider this thing as being a "hostage" situation since this feature has been implemented for teams that feel like they have no hope to win. If an ally voted no, it means they believe there is a chance. Sure it may be lower than what most people would like to have, but there is still one and that ally believes it is achievable. If nothing changes, the team can decide in the next 5 minutes. If not, then it clearly means the team gave up too fast.
or it could be your 0/11/2 "It's just a game man" Vayne flaming people all day and voting 'no' just to piss people off, like it has 99% of the time in **MY** experience. Yours may be different, but please understand where I come from. Seriously, if it's winnable, 2 of those people on your team would vote 'no'. I can't put into words how frustrating it may be to be getting stomped and have 2 people vote 'no', but at least when they do I know it's because we have a chance (and tbf I haven't actually lost a game yet where it's a 3/2 y/n split for a ff vote... even if I really want to ff because everyone's ignoring the enemy jungler camping me) and not because some random asswipe is griefing. Seriously, ask yourself why you're arguing against an early FF being allowed if it's 4y and 1n. It's already the case at 20 minutes, and all those matches where one person was like "Oh fuck no, I want you to suffer through my 11/0 Illaoi" were losses anyway, for reasons I've predicted to come to pass. The 0/11 Vayne didn't just suddenly get gud and quit inting, and it's Silver so I'm the only one who walks out of Illaoi's R. Like, yes, if you ripped every player away from their computer and then put people with a brain in their place you could sorta' stall it out and scale, but until then you gotta' deal with the Vayne whose first and only goal is to get hit by every Illaoi tentacle because she's really into tentacles up every hole _and more._
: Never. Stop trying to give up and play the fucking game. The number of times the game is "clearly over" by 15 minutes is far less than the number of comebacks at 15 minutes.
I can understand that you may come at this from a standpoint of 'I've won games like this so shut up' but can you take a moment to think about the fact that the four people in the match who think it's hopeless are being held hostage by the one person whose either griefing or feeding? They are not asking for it to be 3/2, they're asking for it to be 4/1 which is still a supermajority instead of complete unanymity. I have yet to see one single game, of my 600+ this season, where a FF@15 vote that 4 people have accepted and 1 has denied is unwarranted. They're games where Vayne is 15/0 to your 0/12 Illaoi and 0/3 Rammus, not games where it's your Illaoi feeding but your Caitlyn dominating. The games where your feeding Illaoi is trying to FF despite your Caitlyn being badass always have ended a minimum of 3/2, and usually end 1/4 y/n with people calling to report the Illaoi for giving up, feeding and trolling. Then again maybe I'm just talking to a brick wall and I'll be downvote-botted because I had the audacity to come into a thread and say something that doesn't mesh with the echo-chamber's view on things. It's like individual threads are becoming echo-chambers now.
: it makes me mad that they nerfed the XP and gold to reduce level 2 ganks of all things when it didn't really stop it, it just made failing ganks and farming jgs worse because the farm is so bad
I know this is a controversial idea, but maybe they should just make Lv2 cheese/ganks less of a game-decider. It's actually a choice, if kill gold was reduced; Do you get the allied laner ahead but end up behind yourself, or do you stay on even ground by farming the jungle?
: Probably because no low elo jungler in the game actually uses chat. I have duo'ed with many junglers and they will complain all day about about a lane not playing right in voice chat but they will not type a single word. Like no, a laner isn't going to perma-freeze a lane for 20 minutes on the off chance you may or may not come by. You need to physically type: "I'm clearing blue side then coming down, let them push past river starting now". You also need to tell them when you START that side, you can't wait till your at the last camp and say "after gromp coming down". The time to kill gromp in many scenarios isn't enough for them to get the enemies to push far enough to be gankable. The point being is if you aren't good enough to pick a low elo slammer like yi and yolo 20-5 games then a JG actually needs to use their chat. As a top laner I usually forget my JG is even in the same game as us until I hear dragon screech because they never communicate but at the same time want everyone to be in their ideal position 24/7. JG should be the one in chat the most but they are often the least. They use the self fulfilling prophecy of my laners always ignore me but guess what...if you don't communicate your letting us all ignore you by default therefore reinforcing your laners never listen idea when it's all on you.
I use chat. "I'm pathing from red to raptors to wolves to blue to scuttle, prepare your enemy laner for ganks" is pretty much my go-to on match start. Or, if I need to start blue, it's reversed. It doesn't help much when they hide under enemy tower going 0/5/2, though. Literally, unless I play someone able to go right through the jungle in 20s flat, the lane's usually already decided without ganks by the time I kill the scuttlecrab and hit Lv4. They've either fed FB or the enemy team has. The rare games that aren't decided that quickly are usually the ones that last a while, instead of being over @ 15 or 20 because one side's so far ahead.
: A jungler's job is to dodge the games he sees as loss in champ select and play the ones he believes he can 1v9
My 2/6 'ganks Akali while 15% health and dies' Sejuani disagrees. lol
Razelth (NA)
: Didn't they try that in Twitch Rivals? The lower ranks just get delegated onto a supportive role. I don't think that would be fun for anyone.
You'd be opting into it by matching with someone so much above your own skill, so I don't see a problem. It'd only happen if you were to duo with someone in Platinum or something when you're Silver, and... why would you do that in the first place? To learn how to play at their level. The same would go for the enemy team: it takes a duo or two individuals of both ranks and matches them together. The game already does this on unofficial terms anyway, putting me against Golds and Platinums and shit while I'm Silver, so it's not like it'd change much. It'd just let me match with my Diamond friend to have 'em tutor me while we play, instead of him having to level a freshie from 1 to 30 to do it.
: u realize the rank 1 is a jungler, and jungler does not need buffs, it needs nerfs. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Santorin
I'm not saying they need buffs, I'm saying their power is too reliant on their teammates. They're overwhelming with good teammates and completely worthless with bad ones, unlike every other role. It isn't fun for the people fighting the jungler when they're ahead, and it isn't fun for the jungler when they're behind.
Razelth (NA)
: Armchair psychologist stuck in silver. The boards never fail to surprise me
I have a feeling you don't even know why I'm in Silver. I don't want to make an alt account to play ranked with my friends in Bronze, though, because it's very tedious/frustrating to wade through the garbage-pits that new players need to deal with. It's an issue all it's own. Personally, I wish that you could play ranked with a Grandmaster so long as there's a Grandmaster on the other team to make up for it, on a 1:1 ratio. 3 Golds, 1 Bronze and 1 Grandmaster on both teams.
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoObBgQB,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-07-25T21:42:56.803+0000) > > To win the game? alright, back to basics then. no one gets any help cause helping folks never results in anything good for me, not helping folks does result in good things for me. the player base requested a style of play they can't execute and so the game is better played not adhering to this desired style of play. blame rito, blame role select, blame the player base, i don't care. rito added the option to not have to think about muting all the things so i'll be doing that.
That's fair. It comes down to our personal experiences, and I can kinda' understand where you're coming from when you say that helping them doesn't end well for you. I, personally, feel that it's worth it as long as the jungler's not being an asshole. In the end, we've just experienced two different things. For what it's worth, I hope you have better luck. Oh, and the 'mute allied chat' feature does _really_ help. I've even started using it, myself!
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-26T00:28:33.189+0000) > > You have another fallacy to offer. Of course. The entire problem with League is how the professional scene dictates the game-state, so I'd prefer it if we didn't even go there or I'd bring up how completely, functionally useless certain champions are and how **that** can also skew things. > > Faker: primarily a Mid player. Dopa: primarily a Mid player. Bang: primarily an ADC player. > Get my point yet? Even the pro teams try to get them into those, specific roles because it ups their chance to win. We're not talking about playing one role exclusively, we're talking about how playing anything else will naturally reduce the chances you have to win... even if just by a fraction of a fraction of a percent. > > Humans are good at certain things. End of story. all the champions are useless. the ones that are "good" simply suck less such is the state of balance, and that's more soloq's fault for not learning the game and instead learning a role or one tricking, than it is the pro scene's fault. it's funny you list all these players who can actually play ALL THE ROLES. FAKER, plays all the roles. APDO (yeah i'm from back then), plays all the roles. BANG, plays all the roles, and dare i say he has a devilish thresh. your examples are doing what i say you should do. so how does this work in your head?
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-26T00:08:44.237+0000) > > Do you have any actual arguments to present, or just a fallacy? NA has to continuously import foreign talent for it's esport scene from servers that have better cultures towards autofill. know why that is? because the expectation in those servers is that one be a well rounded player and not a one trick, you learn more about the game that way. but rather than take the oodles of real world evidence regarding this topic, lemme hear what you have to say on it as your regions best players aren't favourable for actual competitive games. ofc most of the NA homegrown talent are dated members of the ladder who are from the time before role select, ergo they are more rounded players and consistently show to be more rounded than whatever is coming up the ladder currently. so with all that data in mind regarding autofill and the level of players a server unwelcoming to it produces what conclusion is one meant to come to? learn the damn game, it's more than your 1 role or champion that you one trick ffs.
You have another fallacy to offer. Of course. The entire problem with League is how the professional scene dictates the game-state, so I'd prefer it if we didn't even go there or I'd bring up how completely, functionally useless certain champions are and how **that** can also skew things when your favorite champion {{champion:13}} is rendered unplayable at a lower elo {{champion:13}} because people are too stupid to stay in their R for a baron play {{champion:13}} and would rather walk back out into the enemy team {{champion:13}} and feed. Faker: primarily a midlane player. Dopa: primarily a midlane player. Bang: primarily an ADC player. Hunie: primarily a toplane player. Get my point yet? Even the professional teams try to get their best players into their best roles because it ups their chance to win. When it comes to this thread, we're not talking about playing one role exclusively, we're talking about how playing anything else will naturally reduce the chances you have to win because everyone's naturally _different._ They gravitate towards what they're best at. Humans are good at certain things as individuals. End of story. I can make you wet your jeans, I'm such a good support... but I do not have the natural skillset needed to be an aggressive midlaner, and since the meta favors them to the point of exclusivity... the lane's just off-limits to me.
Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=0000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-26T00:04:25.773+0000) > > Tier List > Pick Rate. You'll notice the trend I'm speaking of. Ezreal and Kai'Sa and Caitlyn AD are the _most_ popular. Then comes Thresh support. Then comes Kayn jungle. (Sorry, I forgot to filter by region for N.A exclusively.) Interestingly, it's only in Bronze and Silver where things are shaken up a bit w/ Jinx being the most popular AD, Lux being the most popular support, and Yi being the most popular jungler. > > Edit: I have no clue what's going on in Iron, and I don't want to know. 80% winrate Gragas? No thanks. > > My point is just that autofill is less useful than people think it is, because it's not solving the problem but creating many _new_ ones under the guise of being a solution. Hell, it doesn't even fix under-representation. Why? Because... the actual most under-represented role is top, across the board. Neither tier list nor pick rate are valid statistics for what we're discussing, because they both occur after the fact. The statistic we would need to see is the role people are choosing when entering queue, excluding 5 man pre-mades; not anything about which champions they pick. Also a list at pro level isn't fully useful as well. Since the discussion is about queue times, we need stats from the average level.
It's all we have to go on. However, I can say that because the first three most common champions are ADCs, autofill is not doing it's job if the idea is to maintain stability between the numerous roles. It just doesn't make much sense to have three ADCs to one single support, jungler and toplaner. If you can't tell, I'm trying to make people think about the validity of autofill from a functional standpoint.
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-25T23:58:03.071+0000) > > There was for a fair period of around two to five months. A lot of people had major problems with autofill coming into existence. It may not be that way for E.U.W, but **I was here in N.A so I would know.** do you want role select or no autofill? cause you don't get both lol.
Do you have any actual arguments to present, or just a fallacy?
Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-25T23:48:51.445+0000) > > and how do you know? The game was just fine before they introduced autofill despite having our current system. A lot of people were against it, and only a few were for it. By the way, there are a lot more support and even jungle players than you think. If you want citation, let me just put it like this... > [Using the site Riot has most acclaimed and verified the data of,](https://u.gg/) the first two roles are ADC. The second, _support._ The third, jungle. The fourth, top. All of them are represented with enough popularity that you can't tell me autofill is as warranted as you like to think. It's nothing against you, but statistics don't lie. > > Autofill is literally a system implemented **just** to please a superminority of people, like you. It has no benefit to game health, and it skews ranking results even further than they're already skewed by crappy matchmaking, abysmal balance, and rampant toxicity. Oh don't misunderstand me. I'm not made happy by autofill. I'd be happier playing without it, but I've accepted that I wouldn't get to play without. All in all though, I think I was happier with the old pick order system before you could select anything before entering queue, because back then everybody had to be able to play every role anyway, so the premise that someone didn't get the role they wanted was less of a concern. The page you linked didn't have the data you spoke of. All I could get from it was a pro-meta tier list of champions.
Tier List > Pick Rate. You'll notice the trend I'm speaking of. Ezreal and Kai'Sa and Caitlyn AD are the _most_ popular. Then comes Thresh support. Then comes Kayn jungle. (Sorry, I forgot to filter by region for N.A exclusively.) Interestingly, it's only in Bronze and Silver where things are shaken up a bit w/ Jinx being the most popular AD, Lux being the most popular support, and Yi being the most popular jungler. Edit: I have no clue what's going on in Iron, and I don't want to know. 80% winrate Gragas? No thanks. My point is just that autofill is less useful than people think it is, because it's not solving the problem but creating many _new_ ones under the guise of being a solution. Hell, it doesn't even fix under-representation. Why? Because... the least represented role is the toplane, a claim supported by every analysis site ever.
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-25T23:48:51.445+0000) > > and how do you know? The game was just fine before they introduced autofill despite having our current system. A lot of people were against it, and only a few were for it. By the way, there are a lot more support and even jungle players than you think. If you want citation, let me just put it like this... > > [Using the site Riot has most acclaimed and verified the data of,](https://u.gg/) the first two roles are ADC. The second, _support._ there was no role select before autofill lol.
There was for a fair period of around two to five months. A lot of people had major problems with autofill coming into existence. It may not be that way for E.U.W, but **I was here in N.A so I would know.** In my **experience** autofill has offered absolutely nothing outside of randomly shuffling people between roles for the lulz. It makes it harder to climb, and it makes it harder to have fun if there're specific roles or champions you prefer whom may not even be viable in the jungle.
Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Inari Fox Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-25T23:40:33.881+0000) > > ? And... if they wanted lower queuetimes, they'd just learn and queue support. I don't see the problem. It'd be player-moderated autofill over autofill that notoriously-incompetent Riot Games moderates. It's not any different from what we have except for that it allows your own agency. That works when people are switching from blah to support to go from a 10 minute queue to a 10 second queue. This would be a question of a 10 hour queue vs a one second queue. It won't make people switch to support, it will make people quit the game altogether.
and how do you know? The game was just fine before they introduced autofill despite having our current system. A lot of people were against it, and only a few were for it. By the way, there are a lot more support and even jungle players than you think. If you want citation, let me just put it like this... [Using the site Riot has most acclaimed and verified the data of,](https://u.gg/) the first two roles are ADC. The second, _support._ The third, jungle. The fourth, top. All of them are represented with enough popularity that you can't tell me autofill is as warranted as you like to think. It's nothing against you, but statistics don't lie. You'll actually notice that Thresh and Pyke are **way, way** up there in popularity. You could argue it's just people being autofilled into the role, but I have to ask... why was Thresh so popular even before the introduction of autofill? He was popular as a support, just like I have a feeling Pyke would be due to the existence of stuff like Pyke mid and top. Autofill is literally a system implemented **just** to please a superminority of people, like you. It has no benefit to game health, and it skews ranking results even further than they're already skewed by crappy matchmaking, balance, and plentiful toxicity.
Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pyrosan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EVX1hbv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-25T22:44:31.932+0000) > > It's unhealthy for ranked, you are put at a disadvantage if someone's not playing optimally for something out of their control lol > Autofill for normal queues is absolutely fine, reduce those queue times > But give me everyone at their best in ranked See that sounds good, and I agree with the premise. The problem is that in practice without autofill you just wouldn't be able to get into a match in the first place. They 80 quadrillion queueing as the other 4 roles would sit in queue all week waiting for the 7 people who queue support.
If individual players wanted lower queuetimes, they'd learn and queue support. It's no different from what we have except for it allowing you your own agency over your queuetimes.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: yes you can lose games in silver, everything can still be viable in silver jungle, yes I would lose games in jungle that I have no business losing but that's not a jungle issue that's a every role issue.
It is, but at least in Top, Mid and AD you can theoretically Übermensch a win out through being super, super good. Hell, even wiith Leona I feel like I can keep my ADC from inting. I don't feel that way as a jungler: if their lane gets fucked, they're fucked and so are you.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >It's perfect pathing on Kayn. you usually want to vertical or full clear on kayn rather than doing that thing, in silver you can probably also get away with a lot of sneaky invades and counter jungling from my experience. also for your clear it would be more efficient starting at the buff if you're going to clear buff raptors wolves anyways.
Thanks for giving me actual advice. I'll do that. No sarcasm, either. Thank you. I'm kinda' tired of "you're doing it wrong" without people telling me how or why, like they want to vent their frustrations at someone through a venue and it so happens they now have an excuse.
Nadeokí (EUW)
: K/DA has nothing to do with the game's outcome. A System couldn't tell if you did well because you were 4/10/30. Too many factors involved, like dying for a shutdown gold or securing drake, baron, inhib... stuff like that. K/DA basically only matters if you're trying to stack Darkseal...
A positive KDA means you feed less gold to the enemy team. A negative KDA means you feed more gold to the enemy team. I'm sure you'd rather have my 13/5/12 Ahri over someone elses' 5/10/10. Even then, a performance-oriented system a' la' CS:GO would include stuff like objectives and ganks and wards and all that jazz and compare it to the average of a rank. If you're sub-par, you gain less for a win and lose more for a loss. If you're above-par, you gain more and lose less. They've already proven it possible with their champion analysis and ranking, where you get an S+ if you're the only one doing jack on the team.
Nadeokí (EUW)
: You can be in challenger but have Platinum MMR or be Platinum with Challenger MMR. That is, what decides matchmaking, not your LP
: > [{quoted}](name=1v1 me low dog,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bWZAnlfn,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-07-25T17:27:45.727+0000) > > ahah sure bro :D i just played 10 k games on diana to get challenger so i guess when i get autofilled i sohuld have 1k games on supps so i can lane challenger otp supports ? right ?> gj Then you'd be in worse shape if they removed autofill. Autofill is one of the things that makes the preferred role system possible. Without the preferred role system we're back to pick order being the rule and you're certainly going to get your role less with that sort of system compared to a system that uses auto-fill.
> [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bWZAnlfn,comment-id=000a00000001,timestamp=2019-07-25T17:34:31.796+0000) > > Then you'd be in worse shape if they removed autofill. Autofill is one of the things that makes the preferred role system possible. > > Without the preferred role system we're back to pick order being the rule and you're certainly going to get your role less with that sort of system compared to a system that uses auto-fill. They had the role system without autofill for a while, but then people complained about five-minute queue times without ever being willing to learn the role in the most demand -- Support -- so Riot just created this system to make everyone **but** them do it so they didn't have to! Removing autofill just means longer queues. It does not mean the preferred role system goes away. Everyone loves the system, and removing it would just cause an uproar.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: so what exactly is the problem here? that you can't 1v9 after afk farming for 20 minutes? or that the "meta" junglers aren't attractive to you? you're playing in silver, you can play literally anything besides yuumi in the jungle and its viable if you're good. >Raptors > Red/Blue > Wolves > Blue/Red > Scuttle the moment it spawns what champion is this "perfect" pathing?
If Dopa lost games playing Mid in Silver, then there's more to Silver than you think. It's full of smurfs, trolls, AFKs, hardcore feeders, hardcore flamers, and hardcore 'I want to win' players. Only two of those are beneficial to have on your team. I **guarantee** if you came over to N.A (it may be different in E.U.W, tbf) and tried to jungle you'd be victim to a few losses that you can do literally nothing about. I'm not saying I deserve a rank higher than my current. I'm content fighting Golds and Platinums in norms, and I'm content fighting them in TT, even if my rank says and will always say 'Silver'. I'm not content with how incredibly frustrating it is to jungle. I shouldn't be able to remove someone else from the game, and vice-versa, no matter how good or bad the teammates or opponents. Games are meant to be, like, **played** and **enjoyed**, and being forced to go semi-AFK because your laners ignore Jax in your jungle -- after you have literally gotten them an upwards of ten kills, by the way -- is just not acceptable. Also, it's not fun.
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoObBgQB,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-07-25T16:17:22.455+0000) > > Jungle's too reliant on laners. > > If enemy laners rotate to a scuttle and your laners don't you're automatically behind on XP / Tempo. i rotate and my jungle loses the scuttle battle so now i've missed xp in lane for nothing and even if this jungler did get the scuttle with my help he most certainly was not going to gank my lane even once so why am i even helping him?
To win the game? It really does not matter if he's going to help you by ganking for you, like it or not he's responsible for dragons, heralds, barons and towers... all of which have a major impact on winning game _and_ lane. It doesn't matter if he doesn't gank your lane, if he pops a herald Mid and destroys the tower, that's gold for everyone on your team... not just him, and not just you.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >Currently they decide games if their teammates are competent, and they are nonexistent if their teammates are chimps. a funny way of saying "best role for carrying low elo", low elo junglers just need to stop being so lazy and learn to path.
Sorry that I don't enjoy playing the cancerous junglers that are even more cancerous in-lane. I just have different taste, and it shouldn't be invalidated because Riot wants to dumpster the role/s because of their own misgivings. Even if that wasn't the case, I've seen countless Yi players try to be Cowsep without any of the actual brain he has, running on into a 'solo' enemy laner only to realize that was their plan and they had four waiting in bush. That's a real dead Yi. In teamfights? Yi gets obliterated unless the enemy has no CDs... which, you know, is something teamwork achieves. Powerfarming? Enemy jungler's powerganking and getting towers, dragons and herald while going 11/1/4, followed by the "wtf why is my team so bad" Yi bitching everyone out. You **need** your lanes not to feed, and your laners to be smart enough to understand how to set up ganks. They have systematically made solo-carrying less of an option. You can't have glossed over that fact. You'll probably notice that my jungle pathing is **actually** perfect. Raptors > Red/Blue > Wolves > Blue/Red > Scuttle the moment it spawns > repeatedly gank the side and middle lane respective of the side of the map I'm on. It does a fat lot of good when Vayne dies to Illaoi under Illaoi's tower though. Three times.
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Inari Fox Orrion

Level 188 (NA)
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