Ηuawei (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoEzAQzY,comment-id=00110002,timestamp=2019-01-09T02:31:23.976+0000) > > these are ultimates we're talking about. they may have increased cooldown, but we're talking about the most powerful abilities in the game > > imagine him stealing PYKES ULTIMATE and there is now a serious problem > > karthus > > khazix > > darius > > nami > > draven > > ezreal > > > the list of powerful ultimates he can use is going to be a problem {{champion:55}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:89}}{{champion:157}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:203}}
Kata's is garbage to use; low range ultimate that is a channel that has no utility whatsoever.
: Help with Katarina
Your build is the only build that works tbh, with the variations in mind as well. Katarina as a champion isn't very smooth to begin with due to cast times and Dagger drop speeds. Some of the things you can do to alleviate that is shunpo to the Dagger before it even falls to the ground with the QEW combo. Another combo you can try is EQW. You also have to be quick and deliberate with your combo, so that it works against even most opponents. If the person knows exactly how Katarina works then you're utterly fucked.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 12
Thoughts on Katarina? Or is this subject too taboo for Riot?
DabDog (NA)
: New katarina is definitely better then the old one hands down. the new one has a bigger skill expression and the only valid reason i can understand kids wanting the old one back is nostalgia and that it was 10x easier to correctly play. The new katarina is more about set up and execution. The new katarina also lets her play in higher elo without being countered so easily. she also is currently much more mobile (except ward hoping) then she previously was. u used to only get a single E.
You're buying into the myth that old Katarina was extremely easy to play. You're not wrong from a mechanical standpoint, but you're wrong from an execution standpoint; if she was that easy to play and that easy to do well with, why wasn't everyone getting high diamond with her? They both have execution, except new Katarina's set-up and execution is merely "did they walk into daggers" rather than "did they burn all their cc". Actually, she's countered much more easily now because her telegraph just requires her to enemies to walk away from it; anyone that knows the trick counters her rather than people reacting to her engage. And even so, late game, you can do the same thing (reacting to her engage) and she'll die just as quickly as old Katarina. Mobility wise, new Katarina is way more cluncky because of the cast time on Shunpo, and Dagger drop speeds. On the flip side, new Katarina has better chasing power merely because of Preparation and Daggers. Otherwise, new Katarina is slower in team fights, but more reliable in chasing compared to old Katarina.
Śhunpo (OCE)
: Katarina is not great to main in high elo right now. Previously she was, but right now? No. Yeah, if you play her properly she's _good_ but that doesn't really change the fact that she's looking to be on the weaker side atm, at least in high elo against players that actually understand how she works. Hmm, I think this Kat is a lot more feast or famine tbh, since she relies entirely on Gunblade and early-mid game skirmishes in order to be useful to her full potential, though I could be wrong here; this is just my take on it.
You're very right in the fact that she's still extremely feast famine, and highly reliant on GBlade.
: > They delay on Shunpo isn't large enough to be considered "counterplay" firstly because the delay is so slight that you wouldn't react to it, But is it? Lol is currently an extremely high paced game. Even .5 seconds are crucial. So by this logic, no it IS counterplay. > Secondly, I can't consider that to be "counterplay" because it interacts very weirdly with CC; it "negates" most displacement effects Thats a problem on general with riot' s awesome coding. > What kind of argument is "Shunpo does not need to be indtant, thanks."? Why do you call me out and not them? Why? Because they are right. Shunpo doesnt need to be instant. Every ability in the game (as far as i know, with some exceptions) has a small cast time. Yasuo's w? Has. Xerath's w? Has. Annie's ulti (which is widely known as being an instant cast no travel time nuke)? Has.
.075 is counterplay? Maybe to a bot sure. It's said that Human Visual reaction time is .25s or even 215 milliseconds. Do you know how quick .075s is? 75 milliseconds. Absurdly short; faster than normal human reaction. You can't call that counterplay, not by any reasonable standard. Not every ability does have a cast time either; why should Shunpo? Examples include Irelia Q (A HIGH mobility ability), the blink backs on Zed and Leblanc W and R as well as Zed's W having no cast time, Yasuo E, and Fizz E and Q just to name a few. There's more, I'm very sure. They're less exceptions and more just are. Note that the latter 4 are assassins. Why do they get no cast times on their mobility abilities?
Mogarl (NA)
: Daggers are counterplay to her jumping on you. The .75 delay is to weaken her ability to dodge, and make it easier or possible to hit her. It may have corners that need smoothed, but the delay is there so that she has to respect the counter play of other champs instead of face rolling once she starts stringing resets or dodging every skillshot by jumping to a minion.
The actual delay is **.075**. That is less than a tenth of a second. That's _really_ small. That doesn't weaken her ability to dodge; most skill shots are avoidable by even this, but it's just slight enough to allow weird interactions, and clunkiness.
Häxel (EUW)
: counterplay, that the enemy can see at least a little bit what is going on? Riot has told this countless times. maybe a little bit it could be shorter lategame, idk. But definetly not indtant.
I can't honestly expect a .075s delay to be appropriate counterplay. If anything, seeing where the Dagger drops is counterplay enough. The delay doesn't serve a significant gameplay purpose when you know where she's probably going to go (the Dagger), and only complicated interactions with CC and other blink effects.
: The fk is this response? Are you kidding me? What kind of argument is this? Why not? Because it removes a good chunk of counterplay. Yes you know where she will land. However you cant predict exactly. You cant just throw your spell and expect kata to get hit.
They delay on Shunpo isn't large enough to be considered "counterplay" firstly because the delay is so slight that you wouldn't react to it, instead you would react to where her Daggers are. You honestly can't expect me to believe that .075s of delay is a "good chunk of counterplay". Secondly, I can't consider that to be "counterplay" because it interacts very weirdly with CC; it "negates" most displacement effects (e.g, Blitz Q, Trist R, etc.) if done at the right moment. This is actually more common than one would expect, but not beneficial enough for her to use it because it still stuns her as if she were displaced yet still allows her to get to her target. What kind of argument is "Shunpo does not need to be indtant, thanks."? Why do you call me out and not them? I'm allowed to ask such a broad question when they didn't even provide anything in support of their statement.
: Shunpo does not need to be instant, thanks.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
: 53% win rate, 5% play-rate. She's completely fine and requires zero attention from Riot beyond at best some minor quality of life touch ups to her animations and what-not. Easily the most successful project from the assassin rework.
Where are you getting your winrate from? Her global winrate from League of Graphs is 49.7% lmao.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 19
Any Katarina changes planned at all?
Limrick (NA)
: Why is it that manaless champions tend to have high sustain?
Katarina can't synergize well with HGB's healing because most of her damage is AOE. She only gets decent healing if she also goes Ravenous Hunter. Otherwise HGB doesn't heal for much.
Ahris (NA)
: Taric Yi combo was OP, but what about Taric Katarina?
The first problem you have to look at with Katarina is that she isn't a hyper carry like Yi is. In fact, she falls off really hard late game because of her kill speeds. Secondly, Katarina lacks direct defensive attributes in her kit that are found in Yi's; after she engages with Taric ult, she has nothing to really rely on afterwards. Thirdly, she can't jungle at all; she's forced into a laner position.
: Nope lol Talon's late game strategy is to never get there.
Oddly the same as Katarina's.
Terozu (NA)
: The daggers always fall exactly opposite to you. They make it great for chasing. The daggers hit the ground very quickly and her daggers are great for juking. The new Kat is a marked improvement and almost all Kat mains prior to the rework agree. It is also widely agreed shes much easier to play against.
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EFMy6nRL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-29T17:41:52.367+0000) > > The daggers always fall exactly opposite to you. > > They make it great for chasing. > > The daggers hit the ground very quickly and her daggers are great for juking. > > The new Kat is a marked improvement and almost all Kat mains prior to the rework agree. > > It is also widely agreed shes much easier to play against. I beg to differ on Daggers, and easier to play against. Compared to all other assassins, Daggers take the most time to work as well as being most of Katarina's damage. Late game, she cannot sufficiently teamfight due to this fact. She's only easier to play against if you know how to deal with her. Most people don't; it's no different from old Kat except current Kat's pre-6 is sudden and unhealthy to play against if you have no mobility.
Kanzler (NA)
: Where is your data set that proves all those statements that speak for many players? Objectively speaking, the updated kat is a better designed champion. She has a wider skill range, very clear counterplay, and more freedom for creativity. The only skill with old kat was knowing when to go in (something not lost in the rework). Once you E in, it was just mash your combo as fast as you can and hope for a reset to do it all again. Now you have the ability to trigger resets yourself with the passive dagger mechanic. As a kat fan, I much prefer the new kat to the old one.
You don't have to track your opponent's CC so much anymore with new Katarina because most hard cc's besides polymorph, and displacements won't stop you from picking up Daggers. Additionally, when you pick up a Dagger, whatever caused you to pick it up (whether that be a squishy walking on top of it, or for the sake of mobility), the burst damage is instant versus Old Katarina where the real damage came from Death Lotus. In short, tracking CCs is rather meaningless now, because it doesn't necessarily affect you as much as it did w/ Old Katarina.
Zerenza (NA)
: In terms of the design philosophy behind Reverting a Rework, it's all about whether the Rework accomplished it's intended goal. Rengar: The rework caused him to be unable to assassinate, and made him closer to a bruiser than an assassin. The goal was to make him less of a pain to play against, the result was he became a bruiser not an assassin. Leblanc: The rework was designed to emphasize her thematic, fix her lane phase and make her a more reliable assassin. The result was she CCed people for 6 seconds straight, played more as a kite mage and her wave clear was absurdly strong on release, resulting in a nerf and making her near unplayable. Katarina: The idea here was to Emphasize her thematic, make her have more obvious skill expression and lower her burst window. These were all accomplished, she still stayed an assassin, she just got better at it, her waveclear is better as well making roaming on her easier and her burst window is reasonably longer but not to long like Leblanc's was or Rengar's was. Basically if a rework changes a champion in a way that doesn't accomplish what it was meant to, this applies to Mini-Reworks only, it get's reverted or changed a little bit to put the champion back where their supposed to be. In addition if the mini-rework ends up causing a champion to be absurdly strong, first it gets nerfed, buffed, then nerfed again, maybe another buff but eventually get's reverted in favor a more easy to balance itteration(see Kog'Maw).
From a kit standpoint, Katarina stopped being considered an Assassin by Riot internally after she was updated. Her identity isn't very clear regardless because she doesn't play as a real Assassin due to her teamfight capabilities and AOE. That's the only reason why they won't consider her for any reverts or significant changes; she does what she does according to Riot's status quo.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 6
For Katarina, have you considered giving her the Lux treatment? Lowering the Dagger radius a bit, but giving her a faster dagger drop speed?
wildfox99 (EUW)
: the problem is still the same : AP items only gives raw stats and actives/passives aren't interesting at all and mostly offer more uninteractive damage (except for {{item:3145}} items,but {{item:3146}} is so niche and {{item:3152}} is never used for its initial purpose : giving a dash to immobile champions),so the one that gives more damage for the cheaper cost is the best while AD items on top of giving stats and damaging passives gives some useful effect ({{item:3094}} on top of giving an empowered AA makes the passive charge faster and increase your AA range,{{item:3285}} passive is just some damage and nothing else) don't forget then that while each AD subclass have its own items **all** APs share the same items,there are no AP assassin or bruiser items at the beginning i like the idea of making a different start item for each playstyle,but then they overnerfed {{item:3030}} making it useless for chasing (why slowing someone if you don't deal him damage?),removing its damage they removed the start for the ones that didn't want anything but damage they overbuffed and then nerfed {{item:3003}} and now we have luden that is covering all those playstyles (its passive can be used both for bursting or poking,it deals so much damage early game that even a champion supposed to scale in lategame starts to oneshoot people) srsly,revert the {{item:3030}} active changes and make the {{item:3003}} stack faster on champions that can't spam (for example giving stacks based on how mana your ability used,long CD abilities usually have an high mana cost),then just make Mpen less mandatory and items like {{item:3116}} can come back atm AP have less runes,less items and you can't even choose them,they have a mandaroty build...
I really think they should make {{item:3146}} into an AP Assassin item; rn it's only used by Katarina and Akali because they're so reliant on it.
: Bloodletter's Veil needs to be available in summoner's rift but disabled on Katarina
It's suppose to be an AP Assassin item; not a poke mage item. If you used it to poke, the cooldown would be lost.
UltraZed (NA)
: I mean kat is still broken just because win rate low ain't mean trash champ she can do a lot of damage as soon as she gets hextech gunblade she can almost beat anyone in the laning phase unless you are ahead or be like zed and have an untargettable ult that does damage then she is broken
All I hear from this is that you don't know how to deal with Kata.
: Katarina needs buffs
Don't bother putting this here; most people here don't know how Katarina works and will "REEEE" at the slightest mention of wanting kata buffs.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 11
*ahem* Katarina. That is all.
BBW Chaser (EUNE)
: Lets compare the 2 items so you can see how what you say it make no sense +120 ability power +10% cooldown reduction Active UNIQUE: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds. 90 second cooldown (750 range). 120 ability power one of the stronger amount of AP you can get behind Rabadons death cap.. 10%CDR a much needed thing for mages Damage 15% OF THE TARGET MAXIMUM health as magic damage and can be used from 750 RANGE! And it was making any damage you deal to that target 20% stronger Meaning that you can deal 300 magic damage from 750 range on an ADC with 2000k hp (fruther increase with more hp they were having) and increase your damage to deal to them by 20% So overall you could deal over 1000 extra damage with that item from 750 range... Now lets see duskblade 55 AD medium amount of AD weaker than DFG 10%cdr same as DFG Range=125 (If we talk about assasins) FLAT damage 30-200 cant go more than that that it...that duskblade.. so you compare 200 damage vs 1000+++ from dfg..pls gtfo... And if we go even in more deep lets add tabi that cuts 24 damage just from the 12% passive block Yeah i guess they have the same power huh? That why i love math cause it prove how dumb thing some people say
This is rather inaccurate. Duskblade's cooldown is infinitely less than DFG's. While yeah DFG basically gave you a near guarenteed chance to one-hit someone, Duskblade is almost always up for you to use as it has a more flexible "cooldown".
: Cz you don't know how to play her. Old Kat was pretty brainless since your laning strat involves QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ til the enemy laner is low health, before you EWR.
Still brainless tho; your all in is binary and hard to counterplay without mobility or counterbuilding.
Ifneth (NA)
: Looking for Assassin All-In Thresholds
Katarina's kill threshold is dependent on landing both daggers, using HR or HGB, and procing electrocute. Her kill threshold is probably the highest of all the assassins, most likely due to her now non-assassin status kit-wise. For the AOE damage she gets, she has less single target damage power compared to the rest of the Assassins.
: > [{quoted}](name=Infinite Naught,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eWg5Ha7M,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-27T00:05:39.294+0000) > > Katarina's level 3 all in is inaccurate; she has QWE and she also auto attacks whenever she can but most of the time after E as it resets her auto attack. As I have said in my disclaimers: - I put 3 points into damaging abilities/where the damage potential would be at the highest (except Veigar) (sometimes 1/1/1, sometimes 2/1/0, etc.) - Keep in mind that I am not counting AA damage (if they are forced (Fizz, Kassadin, Lux, Talon, Twisted Fate, Viktor, Zed, Ziggs), I will only count the base damage and scaling part of the passive/ability). This may lower the real potential of some champions' damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eWg5Ha7M,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-27T04:02:46.949+0000) > > As I have said in my disclaimers: > - I put 3 points into damaging abilities/where the damage potential would be at the highest (except Veigar) (sometimes 1/1/1, sometimes 2/1/0, etc.) > - Keep in mind that I am not counting AA damage (if they are forced (Fizz, Kassadin, Lux, Talon, Twisted Fate, Viktor, Zed, Ziggs), I will only count the base damage and scaling part of the passive/ability). This may lower the real potential of some champions' damage. Then I have no idea why would would go 2 for Q, as you lose out on 39 damage plus 25% AP plus 100% Bonus AD.
: Guide/Numbers: Damage Potential of Most Midlane Champions at Level 3
Katarina's level 3 all in is inaccurate; she has QWE and she also auto attacks whenever she can but most of the time after E as it resets her auto attack.
Zerenza (NA)
: What Makes a Rework Bad?
> Katarina: Higher Skill Cap, More Opportunities and Overall a more fun kit to play even if it's mechanically much harder. *Higher mechanical skill cap. In fact, that, and more upfront damage, is the only reason why people call it "good". Nothing else about the mini-rework was good or did anything to solve Katarina's real problems.
Nahui (NA)
: Well they both failed at their jobs when they were reworked. LeBlanc became a kiting mage, not an assassin. Adding a fixed burst window goes against assassin design. At least Zed's fixed time does not require his actual presence to occur. LeBlanc had to be within casting range the entire time and that was problematic. Rengar became clunky, which is terrible on an assassin. They're meant to be fluid, quick champions and changing his Q to this awkward, half dash aoe cone just slowed him down immensely. It didn't fix the problem that the rework was meant to address which was him deleting champions instantly when fed because when reworked Rengar got fed, he'd still delete just in a clunkier manner as well as in an aoe so possibly deleting groups. Katarina's rework was a wild success, as much as I hate to say it. They made her extremely telegraphed but also extremely mobile and having lots of options in most situations. She's no longer an extremely feast or famine champ hard countered by CC. They just have to be sure her numbers are in order. Talon's W was slowed to give his targets a chance to breathe before they're killed. If you remember old Talon, could charge Q, E, and throw W and ult at the same time and the blades would essentially converge at the same time as your Q-empowered auto hit and the entire kit just came together in one, crazy burst. I'm all for assassins, but that's a bit silly. What Talon needs the most is for Riot to go in to -every- single bit of terrain Summoner's Rift has, by this I mean the walls, and fix any and all bugs that cause's Talon to jump in some stupid manner. I've died/failed to get a kill so many times because I E'd a wall and Talon decided to flip 3 yds to the right or something dumb like that. The W does feel clunky, so it would be nice if they could increase the speed that it comes back. Not necessarily projectile speed but the time it takes to start coming back, even by like .25 seconds. Overall, I think he just needs some animation smoothing and cast time changes, no real rework.
Eh, Katarina still has problems that aren't apparent. Feast-famine is still there because her damage doesn't exactly scale well; if you build any significant amount of Shielding, MR, or HP (Abyssal Mask, Spirit, Maw, Adaptive, Seraph's, Locket etc.) the edge case threshold for her killing you is no longer there, and she can't do much. Void Staff helps alleviate this obviously, but she can't do anything about it if you rush any of the mentioned items. While she isn't countered by Hard CC per se, she's still blown out of the water if she gets displaced; no Daggers, no resets. Late game, she falls off very hard because her Dagger drop speed prevents her from actually killing more than one person at best unless she splits, or if someone locks down the ADC long enough for her to be able to kill anything.
: Katarina mechanics
Fun fact: Ult doesn't do reliable damage at all.
Sukishoo (NA)
: >old beautiful katarina that had counterplay Counterplay? what? Where? The assassin that would dive in and have DAMAGE REDUCTION making her almost invisible to everyone around her, and then dash out, thus resetting that.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Atrushan2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gHrQpR6v,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-04-18T06:52:27.880+0000) > > No, he's implying that Katarina doesn't kill FAST enough. You have to wait 1.25 seconds on your W to drop before you can move. Whereas everyone else who got delays is getting their delays reverted. Katarina rework was huge success. without the delay she is a massive stat checker the delays should stay. There are still times when I insta burst people with katarina... Le blanc is actually getting more delayed with a revert but you have to be A best of the best Le blanc players to understand that. > Katarina, Leblanc, and Rengar were the only 3 who got delays, whereas Katarina was the only one who's keeping her delays. The least they could do is bring dagger drops down to 0.5 seconds or even 0.75 seconds. Any less than 0.5 and it'd be a nerf, but 1.25 is pretty long considering ADCs can actually kill you before your dagger drops with all the enchanter supports running around with 3k health. As far as Rengar goes: Swim Q was better - Yes it looked ridicilus (I feel like this is the only reason it got reverted sadly) - The burst was about the same there really isnt a difference between cosistent 0.15 one shot and consistent 0.07 one shot Rengar actually lost his versaitility / bruiser prower for the sake of his assassination Power Currently Rengar is back to hix toxic no counterplay one shot jump. I mean old rengar was terrorizing challenger elo, current rengar still is so there isnt much of a difference Rengar does have a niche, he is arguably the fastest consistent very little skill one shoter who is practicly impossible to be one shoted Now is that a good niche? XD hm Guess As far as Le blanc goes: I can guarantee you if there are multiverses. NOT A SINGLE FKING POSKE IS happy with this revert. and I have around 4000 games on Le blanc I will not write here an essay on why the Le blanc revert is VJKLASGFBJKLČESFGBSAKELČFHASEFKLČSHGASKLF because this is katarina thread **YOU SHOULD NOT BE WISHING ANYTHING WHICH HAPPEND TO LE BLANC / RENGAR, ANY SORT OF PHILOSPHY COME EVEN CLOSE TO KATARINA**
You're misled. The Katarina update was *not* a success. There's too many new problems brought up by the delays. Even if she isn't considered an Assassin anymore, and that she should not be treated the same way because of her AOE Damage, she's still played like an Assassin in regards to picking off single targets.
Jhynx (EUW)
: Didnt she already get reworked like awhile ago? Dont wanna spoil the fun but there are some other champs that need and will get a rework instead of kata.
I could write a book on current Katarina's problems, but I won't for the sake of time. For now, that wasn't a rework; that was a small "update" that only nerfed her kill speeds. It didn't change more of the fundamental problems of Katarina and merely sugar coated her kit so people would assume it's the best thing since sliced bread. Hell, she's going to need a VGU eventually. The last one was like early 2012; she has very few voice lines, no expanded lore besides the one Swain implies, and the implied kit and identity disasters she has now.
Rioter Comments
TehNACHO (NA)
: Ehh, Kat turned out pretty well methinks. Will say though the whole premise of the Assassin Update seems flawed. I've always had the opinion that it's an Assassin's utilities that should define them, how they influence the game as a whole rather than how they kill their target, whereas the Assassin Update primarily focused on the latter, and even worse homogenized the Assassins to an extent. No shit the update will fail if you tell every Assassin to play the same way because either they will all fail together or they will all break the game.
The big problem with Katarina's current kit isn't very apparent because it doesn't effect how she plays *yet.*
: Kata's roam is just because she likes double kill situations, her kit contributes nothing to roaming, unlike what Talon or Kassadin bring, which is actually skills that enhance their ability to roam through boosted mobility and the ability to cross several walls.
Actually it kind of indirectly works because of Voracity; her main damage rotation is up instantly if she kills someone so she doesn't need to really wait for anything besides maybe Electrocute when she gets back to lane.
: PSA: You are allowed to go defensive builds even when you're a damage champion
W/ Katarina you never rush a full item over Hextech Gunblade cause you'll lose a big power spike. Funny you should also mention Akali because Akali would need at least 2 items to counter cause of her heavy early game mixed damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=1v1 Terror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEvWqz25,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-04T22:12:31.999+0000) > > What about original Kat where her q had good ad scaling and her e was a single target nuke. Although the version afterward with spin to win w was funner since her previous w just enhanced q and e What ? Old Kata didn't have an AD scaling on her Q. Her only AD scalings were on R and W
Original Katarina; aka Killer Instincts Katarina where Shunpo hit like a Bus, Q got more bounces the more you upgraded it, and you were generally seen as trollpicking when played.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Infinite Naught,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LsjBEvPh,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T15:06:51.864+0000) > > To be fair, she's not considered an Assassin by Riot anymore, so... yeah. Yes she is
Nope! Greater Beluga Whale says that Katarina isn't considered an Assassin kit wise (by themself and the design team) and more like Lissandra, Fiddlesticks, and Kennen.
Poske (EUNE)
: Dude dont get me wrong I was against every nerf which hurt her laning phase 1vs1 potentional I hate it when Riot creates snowball champs and then nerfs their snowball tools resulting in Push farm lanes Katarina rework actually made her viable in high elo so I am up against any KAT Revert Katarina shouldnt kill people instantly given that she is resset assassin,
To be fair, she's not considered an Assassin by Riot anymore, so... yeah.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=VaVahik,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LsjBEvPh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-26T22:03:41.616+0000) > > Lol. Doesn't change the fact she is a time bomb that makes you alt f4 after 30 minutes. Katarina is viable in chall and you are plat 3.. you can improve
What you probably fail to understand is that her playstyle changes drastically the higher up the ELO ladder you go. You don't play her as a teamfighter, rather you play her as a roamer that ends the game before anyone can stomp you after mid game. In lower ELOs you can get away with it because people don't respect the daggers as much.
heroikc (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Infinite Naught,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvbvTBgh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-25T18:45:41.570+0000) > > Executioner's Calling is a convenient item to rush because it's constant Grievous Wounds versus healing targets, and has a low cost access. You wouldn't get Mortal Reminder immediately, but it's very useful to rush Executioner's Versus someone like Vlad or Mundo. Also, Hail of Arrows has a lower cooldown than Katarina's Death Lotus, so it's up more often. Additionally, no it's not easier to escape compared to Death Lotus. Death Lotus doesn't normally slow on its own, so if she starts channeling it, you have more options compared to Hail of Arrows to escape it (CC Katarina or walk/use mobility to get out of it). With Hail of Arrows, you're afflicted with a constant slow and by extension Grievous Wounds which makes it hard to escape. Varus has his own root making it even more difficult to escape. Fair point on the Executioner's calling, but you're neglecting the fact that Kat's passive would shorten the cooldown on her ult with kills, making cooldown irrelevant. And it harder to escape from because it's more likely to kill, and even if you escape it initially, chances are, she's just going to blink to you and finish you off (meaning burning escapes is risky to say the least). As for CC? Know any good mid laners with strong, spammable CC? So far, I only have Annie...
You don't need to spam CC in this meta. Just CCing her once and focusing her shuts her down almost immediately since she's squishy. Also, most of her damage is entirely predictable and can be avoided, or even countered with displacement or other forms of mobility. And, even with Katarina's passive, you'd need 6/4/3 kills before it's off cooldown again. Early game that doesn't mean anything compared to Varus. And again, Katarina's ult can be largely avoided by just walking out of it. "So far, I only have Annie..." You're not thinking hard enough.
heroikc (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Infinite Naught,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvbvTBgh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-25T10:11:09.663+0000) > > The same premise can be applied to Varus' W. Also, Katarina's ultimate is useless for the most part anyway. OK, fair point, but I'd like to point out that the ADC grievous wound items (executioner's calling and Mortal Reminder) is not always a convenient item to rush compared to Morellonomicon (it gives flat magic pen, ap, and health) and Varus's E (his w is blighted quiver, not hail of arrows) affects a relatively small area, applies damage once, and is easier to escape from compared to Kat's ult.
Executioner's Calling is a convenient item to rush because it's constant Grievous Wounds versus healing targets, and has a low cost access. You wouldn't get Mortal Reminder immediately, but it's very useful to rush Executioner's Versus someone like Vlad or Mundo. Also, Hail of Arrows has a lower cooldown than Katarina's Death Lotus, so it's up more often. Additionally, no it's not easier to escape compared to Death Lotus. Death Lotus doesn't normally slow on its own, so if she starts channeling it, you have more options compared to Hail of Arrows to escape it (CC Katarina or walk/use mobility to get out of it). With Hail of Arrows, you're afflicted with a constant slow and by extension Grievous Wounds which makes it hard to escape. Varus has his own root making it even more difficult to escape.
heroikc (NA)
: Katarina's Ult
The same premise can be applied to Varus' W. Also, Katarina's ultimate is useless for the most part anyway.
: I'd say apart from yasuo and maybe corki you should be able to beat them though. Cassio: you can block a great bunch of her damage with your Q and you can jump over her W without being affected by it. Talon: play safe early and if you get any armor at all you should outscale him easily Zed: just get a zhonya and you can beat him Ahri: make sure you dodge her E's and her Q every now and then. She won't be able to all-in you if she misses her e cause you block most of her damage with your q and passive, additionally you have about the same number of jumps as her Akali: akali should be pretty easy to beat tbh, just block her Q and auto damage with your Q. She can't even kill you in one combo because of your passive. Corki: Adc's midlane are pretty tough for kass, but corki's great deal of magic damage should make him a bit easier than the rest, as long as you don't get too greedy Malz: shouldn't be too hard, just get a banshee or a QSS if you really struggle against him Morgana: as long as you dodge her Q you should be fine. Vlad: you can just block all of his Q damage if you make sure to use your Q on him or a minion whenever he tries to Q you. late game you outscale his healing with your damage easily. TLDR: just git gud and these matchups are easier than they might seem at first
> [{quoted}](name=Enderspider,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4qwYXcyV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-18T22:20:49.640+0000) > > I'd say apart from yasuo and maybe corki you should be able to beat them though. > Cassio: you can block a great bunch of her damage with your Q and you can jump over her W without being affected by it. > Talon: play safe early and if you get any armor at all you should outscale him easily > Zed: just get a zhonya and you can beat him > Ahri: make sure you dodge her E's and her Q every now and then. She won't be able to all-in you if she misses her e cause you block most of her damage with your q and passive, additionally you have about the same number of jumps as her > Akali: akali should be pretty easy to beat tbh, just block her Q and auto damage with your Q. She can't even kill you in one combo because of your passive. > Corki: Adc's midlane are pretty tough for kass, but corki's great deal of magic damage should make him a bit easier than the rest, as long as you don't get too greedy > Malz: shouldn't be too hard, just get a banshee or a QSS if you really struggle against him > Morgana: as long as you dodge her Q you should be fine. > Vlad: you can just block all of his Q damage if you make sure to use your Q on him or a minion whenever he tries to Q you. late game you outscale his healing with your damage easily. > > TLDR: just git gud and these matchups are easier than they might seem at first Cass: Kass Q doesn't block endless E spam if she gets W or Q on you. Your passive might help a bit, but you're likely to get poked out of lane because she's a very good lane bully. Talon and Zed: You're fucked. They can build Hexdrinker, and none of your tools can really help besides stopwatch. Ahri: You can't exactly dodge it lol. You have to get into range of her Q for you to actually poke her, so it's best not to engage her to begin with. Akali: She has lots of mixed damage and sustain; you can't bully her out of lane, and your passive isn't very effective against her. Vlad: That isn't necessarily true at all lol. He has mass sustain; trying to poke him is kinda useless. Late game, if the vlad is any good, he'll build spirit against you and there isn't much you can do about it. He also negates any engage you do on him with pool. It's a useless battle. Everything else: "Just avoid the CC/Skillshot lol" Only really doable post-6. And if they're even good, they wouldn't use it first thing against Kass; they'd wait for him to make the first move.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 16
Probably gonna get buried, but Katarina?
: All her abilities are still usefull on AD crit kata (ONLY Q does AP damage only), her dagger pick ups all have AD damage as well so that mixed to the AA damage (which is instant since the crit build is also about attack speed) = the normal AP dagger damage or even more since u can do multiple AAs during the combos, each one of them being a crit = A normal kata combo is for example : E + AA + W + AA + Q + AA + E + AA, with each dagger pick up doing AD damage as well & each AA being a crit strike believe me on AD crit kata this combo does a LOT of damage, squishy champs only need E + 1 AA to get them to like 10% health if not dead instant so... verdict is AD crit kata is as deadly as AP, but more challenging, which is cool :D As i like to say : Who needs R when you have E ? Just give it a shot go to practice tool & go with this build & tell me if the damage u see isn't high af lol
I'm well aware of the implied power of AD Crit Katarina, but that doesn't really mean anything in higher ELOs where people actually react to what you do when you jump on them, as well as the fact that pretty much any other AD Assassin and Akali would get away with it much better. The only places where you could possibly get away with this is gold or lower. Also, I'm talking about magic damage not "AP damage". All your abilities always do magic damage making Lord's very impractical on her. Also a normal Kata combo stops using AAs after a certain point in the game cause it's just too slow to actually use AAs without an E reset, and Death Lotus prevents you from using AAs. Also, AAs stop being worthwhile in damage to a target. You also have the issue of her Daggers taking forever to drop causing you to probably die before you can actually blow someone up. Ultimately, unless your targets are brain dead, if they had any amount of thought process, they'll just kite you while you waste so much time to AA them. Pre-6 it doesn't mean anything cause you're suppose to do that. Mid game, it's not worth the effort, with late game, you WILL fall off harder than if you did AP because you shifted the intended kit focus of AOE damage to single target burst, causing your team fighting capabilities to miserably fail.
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Infinite Saught

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