: Buff tanks? Yeah right, lets make players quit the game again.
> [{quoted}](name=SuffocateMeDaddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QrdIvcyv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-20T09:28:38.176+0000) > > Buff tanks? Yeah right, lets make players quit the game again. OP: “can we add a bonus damage to monsters on this items for tank junglers” “No, tanks should stay out of top lane and the game, no buffs.” Forget that making a change like that to help tank junglers would have little impact on top lane (thanks, Conquerer), possibly even helping to tanks move out of top by allowing them to jungle better in a damage heavy, scuttle focused jungle meta.
: Support needs to start actually "supporting" (ignite Killsecure shld not have been a thing)
Lost me at the summoners. Flash is required into some matchups to not insta die. Ignite is for going all-in on your target, especially slippy ones, and to reduce healing. ASCs usually take Heal, and as far as I’m aware, you rarely want double Heal bot lane.
: The new Essence Reaver and Spear of Shojin on the PBE
Oh hey, nothing is going to change with the current Essence Reaver users, they’ll just pick up Spear and everything will stay the same
: Pffttt, it was not 10 seconds. Not every fight should boil down to "If you can't get away from me, you deserve to die." Because that means you lose every fight naturally, that there's no point in fighting a tank. Fighters had problems, Tanks were **too** tanky, that their damage naturally took over every fight, despite the other sides efforts. They weren't winning because of 10+ seconds. They were winning, because they couldn't do anything to the tank, while the Tank gets CC and Slows everywhere in their kit.
> [{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAuyGgV6,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T06:56:46.529+0000) > > Pffttt, it was not 10 seconds. Not every fight should boil down to "If you can't get away from me, you deserve to die." Because that means you lose every fight naturally, that there's no point in fighting a tank. Fighters had problems, Tanks were **too** tanky, that their damage naturally took over every fight, despite the other sides efforts. > > They weren't winning because of 10+ seconds. They were winning, because they couldn't do anything to the tank, while the Tank gets CC and Slows everywhere in their kit. Which fighters? The ones that rush Trinity? The ones that build for more burst while diving and not building to actually deal with the tank?
: Im consistent Fuck tanks The whole class is counter fun Their purpose is to prevent you from be able to input commands
Tanks are strategy picks. You aren’t picking to burst but to help your team. Their sole purpose is not to prevent you from inputting commands, but to soak attention, damage, and CDs from the enemy. How do many do thag? By being an active CC threat. Meanwhile, a number of divers and assassins have the purpose of preventing you from doing anything by bursting a target in a second, and some from over a wall.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMBbXtFo,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-01-14T11:42:28.912+0000) > > It’s how it’s supposed to be though. Rammus and Malphite are exceptions being massive armor scalers, and Mundo you just buy GW and take that healing of his down a lot. If Malph is bursting you, probably the AP build and not tank. Indeed it is how it is supposed to be, as in marksmen do not beat tanks normally. And Mundo´s ult has been balanced to heal a ton even through GW as he is useless otherwise, now GW is just a baseline requirment to even stand a chance at dealing with him. And malp can easily 1v1 a marksman like Ashe/cait even with a full tank build up to 4 items or so, because they are glass cannos that cant endure any damage on their own. Its what makes vayne/Lucian/kai´sa so strong by comparison, they have means to avoid damage thus they might survive and do damage making them far more powerful when compared. > But that was what things were built on. ADCs, the DPS class, are supposed to be the best tank killers, and ADCs die to burst mages and assassins. Tanks have the base damages to counter the base defenses of squishies, so perhaps ADCs should actually buy lifesteal or other defensive items, pick up an LDR or Mortal Reminder while they’re at it. Just because ADCs started building more for burst with crit or lethality and less actual tank busting items doesn’t mean ADCs aren’t supposed to counter tanks. If they aren’t, who are? That’s the natural order of things. Except the issue here is that you need 3 crit items to effectively use crit at all, that leaves 1 slot for lifesteal and 1 for armor pen and 1 for boots, i personally tried only using 2 but it wasnt good, not even on Ashe who doesnt crit the normal way. And so do you see any room for defensive items in a crit build? Me neither, which is why crit marksmen generally are massive hit or miss cases that flunder extremely in performance but generally sink very quickly against tanks until they have 5 items+ boots,,,,or full build rather. Full build to be any good? A counter? Might as well pick Cassio/malz, get liandry&rylai early and just melt the tanks in 10 seconds, end the game at 4 items before the marksmen even know what is going on. Other option for the marksmen is to use a onhit build but only a few can actually use those effectively, like kog/vayne/Varus/kai´sa, or rely in something else like Lucian and MF does, namely stomping early and ending before anyone else gets moving. So putting it simply, marksmen overall are shit tier picks for dealing with tanks, oddballs and exceptions like vayne wont change that. Instead you want to look for mages like the mentioned malz/cassio/brand/Zyra/anivia or melee that can use black cleaver or skipping that, conqueror and just shredd any tank right through like Darius/Garen/Kled or even Riven if i recall Fiora is a oddball like Vayne so i wont use her as a example but she is pretty much the toplane equivalent of Vayne so mention her i should still. So my point, the best counters you can possibly find to tanks are mages who can use Liandry well or melee who use black cleaver or conqueror well. Marksmen in general? Takes far far far far faaaaar too long for them to get useful.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMBbXtFo,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-01-14T14:36:28.147+0000) > > Indeed it is how it is supposed to be, as in marksmen do not beat tanks normally. > > And Mundo´s ult has been balanced to heal a ton even through GW as he is useless otherwise, now GW is just a baseline requirment to even stand a chance at dealing with him. > > > And malp can easily 1v1 a marksman like Ashe/cait even with a full tank build up to 4 items or so, because they are glass cannos that cant endure any damage on their own. > > Its what makes vayne/Lucian/kai´sa so strong by comparison, they have means to avoid damage thus they might survive and do damage making them far more powerful when compared. > > Except the issue here is that you need 3 crit items to effectively use crit at all, that leaves 1 slot for lifesteal and 1 for armor pen and 1 for boots, i personally tried only using 2 but it wasnt good, not even on Ashe who doesnt crit the normal way. > > And so do you see any room for defensive items in a crit build? Me neither, which is why crit marksmen generally are massive hit or miss cases that flunder extremely in performance but generally sink very quickly against tanks until they have 5 items+ boots,,,,or full build rather. > > Full build to be any good? A counter? Might as well pick Cassio/malz, get liandry&rylai early and just melt the tanks in 10 seconds, end the game at 4 items before the marksmen even know what is going on. > > Other option for the marksmen is to use a onhit build but only a few can actually use those effectively, like kog/vayne/Varus/kai´sa, or rely in something else like Lucian and MF does, namely stomping early and ending before anyone else gets moving. > > > > So putting it simply, marksmen overall are shit tier picks for dealing with tanks, oddballs and exceptions like vayne wont change that. > > > Instead you want to look for mages like the mentioned malz/cassio/brand/Zyra/anivia or melee that can use black cleaver or skipping that, conqueror and just shredd any tank right through like Darius/Garen/Kled or even Riven if i recall > > Fiora is a oddball like Vayne so i wont use her as a example but she is pretty much the toplane equivalent of Vayne so mention her i should still. > > > > So my point, the best counters you can possibly find to tanks are mages who can use Liandry well or melee who use black cleaver or conqueror well. > > Marksmen in general? Takes far far far far faaaaar too long for them to get useful. That’s an issue with marksman itemization and the state of the game in general, but their purpose is supposed to be sustained damage, DPS, which is supposed to bring down tanks and objectives. That turns on the most at full build, which is hard to get to these days from the sound of things. It’s not a fault of their purpose, but the state of the game and their items. Marksmen are **supposed** to be the main DPS class, which means they should be the class that’s best tuned to take down tanks. But they have been forced into certain builds that don’t allow armor pen. They rushed crit in the past because of the spike IE gave with it’s old passive, and now it’s tougher for them to do so since it now converts a portion of crit damage to true, although that does allow them to be better against tanks without equally exploding squishier champs. I believe this was the intended purpose of the change. The thing is marksmen, the DPS class, were tank killers before as well. They were the mandatory class for objecive power, late game power, and killing of tanks (damage outscales defense). They didn’t have the trouble they have now. So what changed? Crit mandatory, crit paths, inability to properly itemize. ADCs at one point needed 3-4 crit items because you had to have 80-100%. But that doesn’t change the fact that ADCs are supposed to be one of the main tank counters. DPS mages as well, but those aren’t as common, and again, DPS that ADCs also deliver, and more reliably at that (auto attacks). Don’t forget that a common view a couple seasons ago was that tanks were just living batteries for the ADC and were just being shredded by them. You may disagree, but DPS classes were always the way to kill tanks, and ADCs are *the* DPS class. But that requires a change in philosophy, builds, and game state. That might mean sacrificing having 80-100% crit to be able to punch through armor, or lifesteal the damage that the tank dealt, and overall Damage needs to move away from everything being burst to allow sustained to be more common, which would likely allow late game Marksmen to be better and the tank killers they are supposed to be.
: Marksmen naturally counters tanks? DAFQ are you on about? OP you have clearly not ever tried playing botlane seriously. You cant say shit about marksmen´s relationship with tanks until you suicide trying to kill the enemy rammus on Ashe/cait, until you realize that Mundo is regaining more health than you are doing damage. Until you get 100´d by a malphite doing a max range ult or you watch Sion break down 3 of your towers before you finally manage to get through his healthbar and stop his passive......provided he doesnt kill you first that is. 10000 HP cho gath just shrugging of your attacks like nothing, enemy nautilus running you down with insane base movespeed using his point and click tricks&fat hook to stomp you down, or fatty grag. Shen poping his barrier and just laughing at you as his entire team dances inside the circle, or ontop of your corpse as you die a moment later having done 0 damage. Helplessly trying to do anything to that alistar who is spamming laugh as you fail to do any damage to him while he ults.....while using a AP build, or that full tank leo doing 60% of your max health before you even get off her chainstun combo. OP if you are able to claim that marksmen counters tanks then you have clearly seen none of these, the average marksman gets absolutely wrecked by tanks, they become completely useless and look about as useful as a bottle of salt water in the middle of the dead sea. The only viable marksmen after the tank update were Kog, Varus, Twitch and Tristana for a reason, they are the only marksmen in the entire game who are truly good when tanks are strong. Ashe was useless as shit, Jhin was trash, MF didnt exist, Vayne´s range was too short, scaled too slowly to be of any use and she was too squishy even with peel, Lucian didnt do enough damage to be worth a fart. Other marksmen? Only Xayah existed as some form of early game cheese that still had some ability midgame but she was called a cheese pick too and was nerfed after. Furthermore, Vayne buffs to appease marksmen? Man no one asked for Vayne buffs, she was legit one of the only "alright" ones sitting at a fairly high playrate but just below 50% winrate which was ....alright. No one wanted some buff to help her be a better assassin, if tank killing was the issue then buffing her range or her W would have been easy but instead her assassination abilities were the ones buffed. "Edit" I figure i should mention this but the average crit marksman needs a full build to deal with a enemy tank that rolls thornmail+extra armor, the reason being that they to deal with this need 3 crit items, 1 lifesteal one for the thornmail and 1 armor pen, having to reach full build to deal with a tank is just far far tooo slow to the point where they are negotiable until that point. Anyone remember that video with a Draven at 2-3 items hitting a poppy like 30 times and still not killing her? Mages that use liandries or melee with conqueror are worlds superior at dealing with tanks compared to the average marksman, its not until you take in specialists like Vayne/Kog/varus that it even becomes a competition but on the other hand toplane has Fiora and Darius, midlane has malzahar and cassio.........pretty sure botlane is actually one of the weakest roles when it comes to dealing with a strong tank. "End of edit".
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMBbXtFo,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-01-14T10:40:42.465+0000) > > Marksmen naturally counters tanks? > > DAFQ are you on about? > > OP you have clearly not ever tried playing botlane seriously. > > > You cant say shit about marksmen´s relationship with tanks until you suicide trying to kill the enemy rammus on Ashe/cait, until you realize that Mundo is regaining more health than you are doing damage. > > Until you get 100´d by a malphite doing a max range ult or you watch Sion break down 3 of your towers before you finally manage to get through his healthbar and stop his passive......provided he doesnt kill you first that is. > > > 10000 HP cho gath just shrugging of your attacks like nothing, enemy nautilus running you down with insane base movespeed using his point and click tricks&fat hook to stomp you down, or fatty grag. > > Shen poping his barrier and just laughing at you as his entire team dances inside the circle, or ontop of your corpse as you die a moment later having done 0 damage. > > Helplessly trying to do anything to that alistar who is spamming laugh as you fail to do any damage to him while he ults.....while using a AP build, or that full tank leo doing 60% of your max health before you even get off her chainstun combo. > > > > OP if you are able to claim that marksmen counters tanks then you have clearly seen none of these, the average marksman gets absolutely wrecked by tanks, they become completely useless and look about as useful as a bottle of salt water in the middle of the dead sea. > > > The only viable marksmen after the tank update were Kog, Varus, Twitch and Tristana for a reason, they are the only marksmen in the entire game who are truly good when tanks are strong. > > Ashe was useless as shit, Jhin was trash, MF didnt exist, Vayne´s range was too short, scaled too slowly to be of any use and she was too squishy even with peel, Lucian didnt do enough damage to be worth a fart. > > Other marksmen? Only Xayah existed as some form of early game cheese that still had some ability midgame but she was called a cheese pick too and was nerfed after. > > > > Furthermore, Vayne buffs to appease marksmen? Man no one asked for Vayne buffs, she was legit one of the only "alright" ones sitting at a fairly high playrate but just below 50% winrate which was ....alright. > > No one wanted some buff to help her be a better assassin, if tank killing was the issue then buffing her range or her W would have been easy but instead her assassination abilities were the ones buffed. It’s how it’s supposed to be though. Rammus and Malphite are exceptions being massive armor scalers, and Mundo you just buy GW and take that healing of his down a lot. If Malph is bursting you, probably the AP build and not tank. But that was what things were built on. ADCs, the DPS class, are supposed to be the best tank killers, and ADCs die to burst mages and assassins. Tanks have the base damages to counter the base defenses of squishies, so perhaps ADCs should actually buy lifesteal or other defensive items, pick up an LDR or Mortal Reminder while they’re at it. Just because ADCs started building more for burst with crit or lethality and less actual tank busting items doesn’t mean ADCs aren’t supposed to counter tanks. If they aren’t, who are? That’s the natural order of things.
: I don't miss not being able to touch tanks ever, and them for some reason being able to out damage me not because they can out last me (like they should), but because they just do more damage than me (I'm looking at you, Darius)
> [{quoted}](name=ThatShinyPiplup,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GlTOFjzE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-01-10T23:40:27.799+0000) > > I don't miss not being able to touch tanks ever, and them for some reason being able to out damage me not because they can out last me (like they should), but because they just do more damage than me (I'm looking at you, Darius) Darius’s entire point is to deal damage while being bulky. That’s the core of the juggernauts.
: mao literally just goes in and roots you. Shen used to be a duelist tank, but shen's not even in the game anymore so it doesn't matter. I never said a tank couldn't be aggressive, otherwise leo couldn't exist. But Poppy is supposed to be a bruiser.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPqhe9OO,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-08T19:05:34.878+0000) > > mao literally just goes in and roots you. Shen's supposed to be a duelist tank, but shen's not even in the game anymore so it doesn't matter. > I never said a tank couldn't be aggressive, otherwise leo couldn't exist. > > But Poppy is supposed to be a bruiser. Umm..Poppy was announced and designed as a tank, bit more Warden with her disengage ult, peel, and mobility stopper
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-07T00:56:42.982+0000) > > A good number of Mages are designed to stay back and nuke/CC, or build a bit more bulk and be more in front (the battle mages). Sorc shoes with certain mages tends to be more of a..kill before they kill you to clear out that carry or assassin. > > This is kind of anecdotal and probably a poor example. > > 1) Zyra top into Illaoi. Question is why? Illaoi is a juggernaut, and if she gets close enough to you than she will hurt you big time. Off meta to that degree is only so good. > > 2) you rushed Morello, while Illaoi rushed SV, boosting her healing from Q and her defenses against you. Meanwhile, in the entire game, you built 0 resistances outside of your third stat rune. > > 3) throwing some blame on your botlane for giving Voli a triple kill and the “inting” Pyke. The performance of your team does not affect the actual nature of the builds. Just because you and your team failed with your magic pen build doesn’t mean the build itself was terrible, especially against a speed up team like that with a Zilean that can really mess up your team with his ult (poor Veigar). 1) You can argue stand back and kill all you want, but there is ALWAYS a way around that, or Xerath and Ziggs would be the most banned, meta champs in the game. Junglers, Assassins, and counter mages were DESIGNED to kill those long range pokers. Zyra is sort of "Mid - Long range," and everything in her kit has a delay. Junglers/Assassins can reach her instantly, and some can completely ignore her E, because of their mechanics ({{champion:121}} {{champion:107}} 's Leaps bypass the root). There's always a game where Mercurials or Ninja's are a better choice. 2) I literally stomp Illaoi lol. She cannot kill what she can't hit. You can dominate her with Zyra. As to why? Well.... My top arsenal is limited..... Zyra..... Neeko..... Ornn (which I don't want to play right now), Illaoi, Karma.... a few others. Garen/Darius etc don't fit my momentum/tasking (I'd have to become a second rate player on the champs I main and "forget" part of playing them to pick up those, and then a few hundred games to master them 3) I beat Illaoi if you bothered to look down the game progress. I began dying because of Voli, not Illaoi. He began camping top after getting 7 kills from my team, flashing over the wall to snipe me at 30% HP. I could handle Illaoi. I couldn't handle Voli who could just face tank everything, avoid E, and was fed a 2 item advantage. I didn't build resistances because I didn't have room for it. I still had the least deaths on the team, and almost double anyone but MF's Damage. Let's go down the kill progress since you doubt me: 1) First Blood: Me on Illaoi. Second round of Kills: Zilean @ Talon, 2X Voli @ Pyke/MF Third round of Kills: Me on Voli in Trade when he flashed under my turret, Voli on Me, Zil on Talon, Blitz on MF Fourth Round: Zil on Pyke, Voli on MF Fifth Round: Voli on Pyke, Veigar on Zil Sixth Round: Zil on Talon, Voli on Me (Flashed over wall under turret AGAIN), MF on Jhin etc etc. By 15 minutes, Voli had 6100 G. That's 2+ items at 15 minutes. At 15 minutes, I had 5100 G. 1000 Less. That doesn't affect the nature of a build? No offense..... But I slaughter Voli on Zyra in a normal game. I'm usually the one who has the gold advantage, and not only can I catch him, I can outrun him. Not only can I hit him/respond to him, I can melt him. This one was given a massive lead, and if you bothered to actually look at Pyke's stats/score/damage, you'd know he actually ulted Voli at full HP some 15 times, and then literally stood still until dead. You'd realize that Talon didn't have a single mobility item until 27 minutes. You'd realize that the other team was moving so fast, 3 of them sold their shoes. Oh and don't forget the fact that at some 10 minutes, the team was 3/12, and went to a point where Pyke was 1/15, Talon was 0/8, and Veigar was 0/1 in lane, and 0/7 until very late game, and had the second lowest damage on the team. I bet you didn't even notice that Veigar was the "adc" and MF was the "Support." Or that Pyke went pure tank items...... I bet you didn't notice that Talon started with a Tiamat, no shoes, and lost his turret to Zilean, and postponed Youmuu's to his third item. How do you think this game lasted 1 hour 16 minutes? Oh Yeah. Me. Me and MF. Vs 5. P.S. I killed/Set up kills on Zilean 9 times. He was really bad at staying alive. Most of his Ults got pure camped after I popped him.
Ok. That’s all well and good. My point in the last post was that your one match doesn’t determine how those items stack up. My original post was about how you claimed Void penetrates just as much as Oblivion/Sorc..well, Morello, but as far as magic pen goes, there’s no increase from Oblivion to Morello. You’re point was: > Void staff eliminates almost as much if not more magic resistance, than either of the two items you mentioned And the answer depends on the target. Past 50 bonus MR, you were right. But on a squishy, which is what flat pen is used for, flat pen is better than Void, especially if the target gets no MR. A combo of the three does work vs tankier and squishy, but the calculations were the goal of my post. You..didn’t really counter that, merely started into your match vs illaoi and how the build didn’t help you in that match. Also, sorc shoes are still considered the best ahead buys for mages, either that or {{item:3158}}, being, most often, the highest pickrate and win-rate among boots for mages, and Morello is up there on majority of them as well. In fact: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zyra/
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-01-06T12:18:29.177+0000) > > If your target is a squishy champ, you’re better off buying Sorc/Oblivion than Void. Void is 40% total magic pen while Sorc/Oblivion gives 33 flat magic pen. Most champs you face in midlane at level 18 have a base MR of 38.5. Sorc/Oblivion takes that down to 5.5 MR. if you just use a Void Staff, that only reduces it to about 23 MR. > > Now, they could build Banshee’s or Hexdrinker. Which gives 60 and 35, respectively, which puts that value above at 98.5 and 73.5. Sorc/Oblivion effectively negate the MR gained from Hexdrinker. Here Void gains more value, as the values are higher. Void’s pen is counted first, so against Banshee’s acts as if the target has 59.1 MR, a 39.4 difference, and against Hex acts as if they have 44.1 MR, a 29.4 difference. So technically, Sorc Shoes/Oblivion is as effective, if not better, than just Void until the target picks up about 50 MR. Void starts having better penetration once the target passes ~88 MR, a tall order in midlane depending on matchup, and if you’re aiming to just kill the ADC, you’re better off with just Sorc/Oblivion, don’t even need to finish Morello (no additional magic pen). Here's my problem which I addressed in the previous post: 1) Most games need a way to deal with rampant CC, Mobility, Assassinations. Buying Sorcs denies CC mitigation/basic attack reduction. Most mages' kits aren't successful if they die (Brand can be, Zyra is iffy), 2) Buying Morello denies Early point CDR, which is important to MOST mages. It also conflicts with runes like Coup De Gras, and makes you more vulnerable to % damage champs, like Kayn, who are extremely popular right now. I'm not against the items, but I do treat them as situational. I can give you an example: Last night I was Zyra top vs an Illaoi. They had a Volibear jungle. My bot lane fed Voli a level 4 Triple. I was actually going Morello/Sorcs/Void, because I knew that these big guys were all 1) going to buy magic resist and 2) be fed as hell and 3) be in the same fights. Unfortunately..... I had an int feeding Pyke support who literally was ulting in at full Targets and then just standing still to die. Game went 1 hour 16 minutes, basically because the adc and I were carrying the int feeding Pyke, and a Talon who started out not building ANY mobility (in fact he was one of those "amazingly viable" Tiamat building Talons who int feeds a Zilean mid..... one of those ...... 600 Talons who builds a Tiamat......It was so great that he eventually sold it to look like a traditional Assassin....) I did 106k damage that game to champs..... didn't mean snot though..... because the tradeoff was being vs a Team of {{item:3800}} + Zilean speed + Voli Flash dives over my skills... + the Illaoi I shut down eventually getting full build (and getting ressed post ult death by Zilean so she could continue to use her tentacles) + {{item:3053}} (Every time I got on Voli/Blitz Illaoi at 60% HP they got that nice 1/3 of their HP shield) Point is...... those Pen items robbed me of the ability to get away. At the same time, if I sold and went mobility, I was robbed of the ability to kill them. Catch 22.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2019-01-06T15:15:27.446+0000) > > Here's my problem which I addressed in the previous post: > > 1) Most games need a way to deal with rampant CC, Mobility, Assassinations. Buying Sorcs denies CC mitigation/basic attack reduction. Most mages' kits aren't successful if they die (Brand can be, Zyra is iffy), A good number of Mages are designed to stay back and nuke/CC, or build a bit more bulk and be more in front (the battle mages). Sorc shoes with certain mages tends to be more of a..kill before they kill you to clear out that carry or assassin. > 2) Buying Morello denies Early point CDR, which is important to MOST mages. It also conflicts with runes like Coup De Gras, and makes you more vulnerable to % damage champs, like Kayn, who are extremely popular right now. > > I'm not against the items, but I do treat them as situational. > > I can give you an example: Last night I was Zyra top vs an Illaoi. They had a Volibear jungle. My bot lane fed Voli a level 4 Triple. I was actually going Morello/Sorcs/Void, because I knew that these big guys were all 1) going to buy magic resist and 2) be fed as hell and 3) be in the same fights. > > Unfortunately..... I had an int feeding Pyke support who literally was ulting in at full Targets and then just standing still to die. Game went 1 hour 16 minutes, basically because the adc and I were carrying the int feeding Pyke, and a Talon who started out not building ANY mobility (in fact he was one of those "amazingly viable" Tiamat building Talons who int feeds a Zilean mid..... one of those ...... 600 Talons who builds a Tiamat......It was so great that he eventually sold it to look like a traditional Assassin....) > > I did 106k damage that game to champs..... didn't mean snot though..... because the tradeoff was being vs a Team of {{item:3800}} + Zilean speed + Voli Flash dives over my skills... + the Illaoi I shut down eventually getting full build (and getting ressed post ult death by Zilean so she could continue to use her tentacles) + {{item:3053}} (Every time I got on Voli/Blitz Illaoi at 60% HP they got that nice 1/3 of their HP shield) > > Point is...... those Pen items robbed me of the ability to get away. At the same time, if I sold and went mobility, I was robbed of the ability to kill them. Catch 22. This is kind of anecdotal and probably a poor example. 1) Zyra top into Illaoi. Question is why? Illaoi is a juggernaut, and if she gets close enough to you than she will hurt you big time. Off meta to that degree is only so good. 2) you rushed Morello, while Illaoi rushed SV, boosting her healing from Q and her defenses against you. Meanwhile, in the entire game, you built 0 resistances outside of your third stat rune. 3) throwing some blame on your botlane for giving Voli a triple kill and the “inting” Pyke. The performance of your team does not affect the actual nature of the builds. Just because you and your team failed with your magic pen build doesn’t mean the build itself was terrible, especially against a speed up team like that with a Zilean that can really mess up your team with his ult (poor Veigar).
: Every time I play a tank jungle, I am reminded how miserable it is. Even if you don't get fucked in the early game, the amount of insane tank shred in the game means you will never survive more than 5 seconds under the focus of at least 2 seconds. This is why the winrates of the tank junglers are so low. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/nautilus/jungle 43.8% for nautilus https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/zac/jungle 47.9% for zac https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/sejuani/jungle 44.6% for sejuani https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/gragas/jungle 47.1% for gragas https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/amumu/jungle ok, 50.8% winrate for amumu, which is decent A reason for this is that {{item:1413}} is the worst it has ever been.
Just pointing out with Amumu’s winrate, isn’t he mostly built AP, so..damage?
: > [{quoted}](name=JeaneGreene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T10:02:46.331+0000) > > 1) If you want to deal true damage to the majority of the cast, just get sorcs and an oblivion orb. Vous staff is situational to tanks, and does nothing if you bought the previous items (and the enemy hasn’t built any MR). > 2) You can’t get pen runes on Zyra. Void staff is 40% TOTAL Magic Penetration. They have Base Magic resistance. Also, it takes up one slot, and does more in most situations than a Morellonomicon does. About the only champs who primary a Morellonomicon ..... is {{champion:55}} ..... who can literally reset herself, so that CDR isn't really important. Sorc Shoes are often a death sentence. You need to learn to work around with not having them. They are okay when you're ahead, or playing a remote mage who doesn't get dirty, but even then, CC or auto attacks often just destroy you. Void staff eliminates almost as much if not more magic resistance, than either of the two items you mentioned. Most champs it will eliminate at least 16. It's also cheaper than a Morello. Also, I don't ALWAYS get one. If I'm nuking adcs, I just get Mobility AP. But we are talking about hybrid tank teams..... who almost always have magic resistance..... Even top juggernauts almost ALL buy {{item:3065}} {{item:3111}} , which is enough to make them a burden to a mage. 2) I Know. I'm reserving commentation for the case in which all champions do eventually have that option back/when they had it. I was also mentioning it for emphasis.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T10:24:51.571+0000) > > Void staff is 40% TOTAL Magic Penetration. They have Base Magic resistance. > > Also, it takes up one slot, and does more in most situations than a Morellonomicon does. About the only champs who primary a Morellonomicon ..... is {{champion:55}} ..... who can literally reset herself, so that CDR isn't really important. > > Sorc Shoes are often a death sentence. You need to learn to work around with not having them. They are okay when you're ahead, or playing a remote mage who doesn't get dirty, but even then, CC or auto attacks often just destroy you. > > Void staff eliminates almost as much if not more magic resistance, than either of the two items you mentioned. Most champs it will eliminate at least 16. > > It's also cheaper than a Morello. > > Also, I don't ALWAYS get one. If I'm nuking adcs, I just get Mobility AP. But we are talking about hybrid tank teams..... who almost always have magic resistance..... Even top juggernauts almost ALL buy {{item:3065}} {{item:3111}} , which is enough to make them a burden to a mage. > > 2) I Know. I'm reserving commentation for the case in which all champions do eventually have that option back/when they had it. I was also mentioning it for emphasis. If your target is a squishy champ, you’re better off buying Sorc/Oblivion than Void. Void is 40% total magic pen while Sorc/Oblivion gives 33 flat magic pen. Most champs you face in midlane at level 18 have a base MR of 38.5. Sorc/Oblivion takes that down to 5.5 MR. if you just use a Void Staff, that only reduces it to about 23 MR. Now, they could build Banshee’s or Hexdrinker. Which gives 60 and 35, respectively, which puts that value above at 98.5 and 73.5. Sorc/Oblivion effectively negate the MR gained from Hexdrinker. Here Void gains more value, as the values are higher. Void’s pen is counted first, so against Banshee’s acts as if the target has 59.1 MR, a 39.4 difference, and against Hex acts as if they have 44.1 MR, a 29.4 difference. So technically, Sorc Shoes/Oblivion is as effective, if not better, than just Void until the target picks up about 50 MR. Void starts having better penetration once the target passes ~88 MR, a tall order in midlane depending on matchup, and if you’re aiming to just kill the ADC, you’re better off with just Sorc/Oblivion, don’t even need to finish Morello (no additional magic pen).
: As i said His W needs to be reverted to Release version if not less damage on it. why cant his trade be one button garens trade with q then run away. Wu kong trades with Q then runs away J4 trades with Q then runs away. I dont agree with Putting his Shield on his unintelligable Q and E combo that was purposely designed to be bad. Its almost like you arent reading anything i say just to respond about whats riot is doing while i have already said that i dont agree with what is riot is doing you can keep doing that with yourself from now on i may respond if something related to what i said is in there.
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v94aFANl,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T02:05:45.534+0000) > > As i said His W needs to be reverted to Release version if not less damage on it. why cant his trade be one button garens trade with q then run away. Wu kong trades with Q then runs away J4 trades with Q then runs away. I dont agree with Putting his Shield on his unintelligable Q and E combo that was purposely designed to be bad. > Its almost like you arent reading anything i say just to respond about whats riot is doing while i have already said that i dont agree with what is riot is doing you can keep doing that with yourself from now on i may respond if something related to what i said is in there. While I haven’t officially jumped on the “shield on E knockup train” yet, it would likely be better than currently on W to make his trades more interactive. J4 and Garen may sometimes trade with just Q, but those are offensive, while if they need a defense boost in the trade they have to use another CD. Ornn gets offense and defense on his W, so he presses one button and shields your damage while damaging you. Separating shield from his W would force his trades to be more interactive if he wanted the shield. You may think Q-E is “unintelligible”, but it gives the opponent room to make him fail his shield. And no, it wasn’t “designed to be bad.” Most Ornn players if they get the slow on Q can get the knockup in. In a teamfight he definitely can get a knockup, which is where he should shine anyway, *not* in lane. To many mains at the time, Ornn was considered fairly healthy back before the damage change and accept he was a tank, so damage numbers and laning weren’t his ultimate goal.
: Orrn and Sejuani need more damage. Orrn Needs his W changed back to intial and needs damage else where in his kit which was his problem from release even if he won early he had no way to keep the advantage because his has no damage scaleing and is locked out of his own masterwok items by them being horrible for him to build. They then buffed the worst possible thing on the buff yes the buff did make him viable but it wasnt healthy at all. Sejuani's damage was gutted when she was reworked and gutted even more when she was deemed to strong for competitive because of her E stunning so they left the stun alone and gutted the damage. Sejuani deserves every damage buff she gets and more id rather they buff her ratios but her but her Base damages are much weaker than tanks adcs mages even supports like leona have more damaging spells without her passive. the only thing broken on sejuani is her E % damage which like most % damages in the game are too high. Neither of them have as much damage as other tanks outside of statted Max hp damage. Sejuani needs better ratios to open her bruiser path back up again too without it being too bs. Sejuani's base stat increase still isnt enough she is only being put in line with adcs and mages not other tanks her passive also needs a way to be rest in combat and doesnt need to lose stats until it does nor does it need to gain uptime.
> Orrn and Sejuani need more damage. Orrn Needs his W changed back to intial and needs damage else where in his kit which was his problem from release even if he won early he had no way to keep the advantage because his has no damage scaleing and is locked out of his own masterwok items by them being horrible for him to build. They then buffed the worst possible thing on the buff yes the buff did make him viable but it wasnt healthy at all. No, Ornn didn’t need more damae, nor does he. He dealt enough as he did back before they changed his W. He’s a tank, if he gets an advantage, he builds into defense to better help his team. He doesn’t need more damage scalings and..no, he was never locked out of his masterwork items. He had Forgefire Cape and Infernal Mask, both solid forms of tank items. He’ll also be getting an IBG upgrade here soon. Ornn is a tank, he didn’t need much extra damage. His mains enjoyed him before they changed and maintained good stats for a tank. His power wasn’t in damage, nor should it have ever been. It was in the tank portion of his kit.
Ralanr (NA)
: He’s a diver. The league client is out of date.
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bvXEpVn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-04T06:28:47.214+0000) > > He’s a diver. The league client is out of date. He does still hold innate tank qualities, can work decently as one, while also still carrying the old tank emblem at every info point. He’s kind of a weird split, can be built either way, with pros and cons to both. At the moment, best and most popular style is as a Diver though.
GigglesO (NA)
: So J4 is listed as a “Tank”
J4 is an odd one, but he seems to be one that can build either way. Assassin: Lethality, Warrior Fighter-Diver: Cleaver/Trinity, Hydra, Warrior, etc. Tank: Cinderhulk, Spirit Visage, Dead Man’s Plate, etc. His abilities tend to have enough to allow for each. His scalings allow him to go for assassination or diver style, while his engage, lockdown between ult and E-Q, teamwide buff from E, and armor shred (not armor pen) on Q is a decent debuff that all the physical damage champs on his team can work off of. Granted, his best builds are currently diver/assassin, but he does have tank capabilites and can handled well as one.
I am 12 (EUW)
: True, I think the problem with old yorick was that he his spells costed too much mana and since you had to stack tear your power spike was too late I think that was the problem with old yoricks kit coming from a person who have mainly played yorick since season 3 I stopped playing him season 5 and picked up zed instead.
> [{quoted}](name=I am 12,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=trlr8l2t,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T15:54:13.869+0000) > > True, I think the problem with old yorick was that he his spells costed too much mana and since you had to stack tear your power spike was too late I think that was the problem with old yoricks kit coming from a person who have mainly played yorick since season 3 I stopped playing him season 5 and picked up zed instead. It was definitely more than just a mana cost issue if he got the treatment he did. Poppy had a similar treatment. It’s more of kit design than just mana costs. You don’t get dumpstered and taken off rotation just for manacost issues. Granted, I only got to face old Yorick once..maybe twice, and it was a grueling matchup. So much of what I know comes from reading elsewhere.
FSRER (EUNE)
: Yeah....this thread is wrong. Riot never actually talked to players which aren't challengers, so...... Now to get real, the simplest solution would be to revert infinity edge so that adcs cant abuse the true damage (and do something with draven who can abuse conqueror and with vayne cause...yeah true damage) and, anyone remember armor penetration? Yeah, that thing, buff the base stats on the items that give it (last wisper items(kinda sad to see {{item:3036}} giving 40 damage)). Right now a malphite does not stand a chance vs a 5/0 150 cs yasuo with pd and inf when he could by building randuins and ninja tabi. So, if ie was reverted, if the yasuo wanted to do damage on that malphite he would have to get {{item:3036}} to bypass his armor. Simple aint it? Cause I haven't seen a adc with last wisper since pre ie rework.
> [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-04T08:49:51.611+0000) > > Yeah....this thread is wrong. > > Riot never actually talked to players which aren't challengers, so...... > > Now to get real, the simplest solution would be to revert infinity edge so that adcs cant abuse the true damage (and do something with draven who can abuse conqueror and with vayne cause...yeah true damage) and, anyone remember armor penetration? Yeah, that thing, buff the base stats on the items that give it (last wisper items(kinda sad to see {{item:3036}} giving 40 damage)). Right now a malphite does not stand a chance vs a 5/0 150 cs yasuo with pd and inf when he could by building randuins and ninja tabi. So, if ie was reverted, if the yasuo wanted to do damage on that malphite he would have to get {{item:3036}} to bypass his armor. Simple aint it? > > Cause I haven't seen a adc with last wisper since pre ie rework. The armor pen items make me sad..because I rarely see them built. Not just by ADCs, but any AD class. Even {{item:3071}} hasn’t been picked up as much with success. And this has been a big point of mine currently as well as in the discussions leading up to Conquerer. Yes, a class needed a rune that worked well for them. But one of the biggest points was they also needed it to deal with “OP/dominant” tanks, when those players would be building things like Trinity and other burst related items. Of course you can’t deal with the tank if you’re building to kill squishier champs faster. Forget the items that are designed to help kill tanks..
: > [{quoted}](name=VoraciousX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=0001000300000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T09:20:02.895+0000) > > Except they're not even listed on support either. who are these than? {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:99}} all in the list for top supports on op gg
> [{quoted}](name=RevertCritOrAFK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=00010003000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T09:23:39.470+0000) > > who are these than? {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:99}} all in the list for top supports on op gg Um. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/support Most popular supports: {{champion:412}}, {{champion:555}}, {{champion:267}}, {{champion:117}}, {{champion:25}}, {{champion:16}}, {{champion:63}}, in that order. Going farther, we have {{champion:12}}, {{champion:89}}, {{champion:40}}, {{champion:99}}, {{champion:53}}, {{champion:143}}. Vel’koz is at 4% popularity with a 51% WR, Fiddle about the same. Veigar is down in 2.3% popularity with a 48% WR, and Xerath at 2.5% with 51%. But you have 6 supports before even Brand. Traditional supports are still being picked more in plat+.
: > [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ml9Fj0Ub,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-03T21:20:52.870+0000) > > Uhhh it's implied Garen is trying to stop Judgment and the chain guy is using it instead. wat. looks to me like garen is pointing his hand into the direction to smite something that chained him up and is trying to escape. are we talking about a champion who can steal ultimates?
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ml9Fj0Ub,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T21:23:23.924+0000) > > wat. > > looks to me like garen is pointing his hand into the direction to smite something that chained him up and is trying to escape. > > are we talking about a champion who can steal ultimates? That’s one of the current theories based on the recent tease. The other images being Lux’s Final Spark, Galio’s Heroic Entrance, and J4’s Cataclysm while all three are chained up as well. Lux’s starts off screen while she’s center screen.
: Jarvan IV got turned into a tyrant.
You mean the image where he’s currently held in chains by the upcoming champion, having somehow used Cataclysm? The image where Jarvan IV is likely not in control?
: New Teasers on the Demacia Universe site
That has to be terrifying and traumatizing from the character’s perspective, watching their own power be used in such a way..especially Garen in that moment.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tLuNKQ6I,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-01-03T13:27:34.563+0000) > > Must’ve been preparing for Alistar’s Q-W combo. > > Is this why Cleaver has supposed fallen out of grace compared to Trinity, since Trinity has more burst with the Sheen+Sterak’s while Cleaver is more utility and focused more on sustained damage in how the armor shred stacks? i think so, yes. try fighting anything but a tank with cleaver. like spin on your opponent with garen, and the damage feels laughable. meanwhile we can take 1/3 of a squishies health with a sheen empowered decisive strike. even if i would deal the same damage with a cleaver + garen spin over 3 seconds, that i deal with a sheen proc on my q, what makes more sense to build? all this damage as frontloaded burst, or as sustained damage over 3 seconds and give your enemy a chance to get away from you? sheen + q + ignite + r is just more reliable. on top of that, {{item:3078}} also increases your sustained damage by giving you attack speed, and the ability to proc sheen more than once in a fight. cleaver just loses most of the time imo. i personally really only use it when there is an actual tank on the enemy team.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tLuNKQ6I,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T13:35:55.063+0000) > > i think so, yes. try fighting anything but a tank with cleaver. > > like spin on your opponent with garen, and the damage feels laughable. meanwhile we can take 1/3 of a squishies health with a sheen empowered decisive strike. > > even if i would deal the same damage with a cleaver + garen spin over 3 seconds, that i deal with a sheen proc on my q, what makes more sense to build? all this damage as frontloaded burst, or as sustained damage over 3 seconds and give your enemy a chance to get away from you? > > sheen + q + ignite + r is just more reliable. > > on top of that, {{item:3078}} also increases your sustained damage by giving you attack speed, and the ability to proc sheen more than once in a fight. > > cleaver just loses most of the time imo. i personally really only use it when there is an actual tank on the enemy team. Hm, perhaps that was part of my problem when I tried running juggernauts not too long ago, I still instinctively buy Cleaver cause, in my head, it’s still core for them, but I guess I was wrong and being stubborn in a time with less tank lane opponents. I’ll remember that. Quick tangent on this, apologies. I think the reverse of my issue is why I have such a big issue with Conquerer. I understand fighters wanted their own rune, they should have one. But back before it released I remember arguments about how fighters had trouble with tanks...but most of the time they’d be fighters that built Trinity and more burst style instead of items that actually dealt with tanks, and I’m just like..if they have so much trouble with tanks, maybe they should build to hurt tanks and be given a better implemented rune (like Fervor), instead of building to hurt squishies and given a rune to then allow them to hurt tanks on top of that. That’s just my little tangent rant, sorry about that. Just figured since the topic was trinity and cleaver. Thanks for explaining that, by the way
: so far on this thread i have seen nothing that should by all means be considered what you have just described them as, other than very calm unoffensive and down right tame insults. in fact i would much rather prefer this man over some of the Villarreal i have seen on these boards and in game that have gone unpunished
> [{quoted}](name=DeathShadow2,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=YyNdTKwB,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T21:42:25.375+0000) > > so far on this thread i have seen nothing that should by all means be considered what you have just described them as, other than very calm unoffensive and down right tame insults. in fact i would much rather prefer this man over some of the Villarreal i have seen on these boards and in game that have gone unpunished It isn’t the “calm” or “tame”, but the attitude and intent. The intent of all the comments in the linked thread, and even here, was never to discuss with other people, but mainly to insult them for daring to disagree. That’s why I said it seemed almost trolling, there was no discussing, only insulting and deflecting. If someone posts a thread, and you and others comment expecting something to discuss, and just get insulted and told to leave, what would you think should be done about the thread? Regardless, the intent of the comments was to insult those who responded, at which point they were taken care of. If someone did similar with foul language, they would have the same treatment. Key response is to report those incidents for the mods to look over, and when they get to it (because I am sure they get a fair number of reports), if it’s true, they’ll take action much like they did with the linked thread.
: {{champion:122}} is perfectly fine {{champion:6}} needs adjustments or power shifts at worst. hes better off after his rework than before. he has conterplay around his leg procs. {{champion:86}} getting reverted is the last thing he needs. they need to move forward with him and rework villainy to make it feels less random. garens rework wasnt a complete success and he still has issues. but pre rework garen compared to post rework garen is still a lot less polarizing in success between high and low mmr. not even a joke. pre rework, garen had 55% winrate in bronze and was only viable up to d5. the difference is stil large, but a lot smaller to before. {{champion:114}} doesnt need to be reverted. shes a better champion than before the rework {{champion:39}} the concept of her new kit is fine. shes just overloaded when it comes to base stats, mana costs, attack range etc. they gave her too much of everything that has nothing to do with the mechanics of her kit. her w is a channel that cant be interrupted for some reason. {{champion:14}} are you high? {{champion:83}} no. he was perfectly fine before they nerfed him for shit tier mmr {{champion:19}} just why? are you just listing random reworks?
Thank you for pointing these out. There’s others in the OP’s list I disagree with, but at this point I think the OP just has hate for any reworked champ, oddly enough leaving out Aatrox, Sejuani, Zac, and Maokai. Edit, and Galio
I am 12 (EUW)
: > {{champion:83}} no. he was perfectly fine before they nerfed him for shit tier mmr I think Yorick's rework is a failure since league is a team based game old yorick atleast had an ulti that was good for teamfights it was like a 10 second Zilean ult, now yorick can't do much in a teamfight since his kit is based too much of minions you get from your ult or when people dies but the problem with that in teamfights is that you don't have ult or you use your ulti and your ghouls die so you cant get new ones if you don't kill 3 people or you don't kill 3 minions with q.
Meh, old Yorick’s kit was to the point where he got taken off the free rotation and kept in a dumpster. That says something about the kit. Yorick got reworked around his splitpushing, so that became his strength alongside some of the AI for his ghouls and Maiden. Splitpushing is a viable strategy for a teamgame because it still requires working with the team in some form, otherwise you’ll just keep getting killed due to not enough pressure elsewhere. If Yorick does need more teamfighting power, his ghouls need to be a bit more accessible, perhaps a higher incentive to hold Maiden to make a 6v5 and get the ghoul refreshes. Likely some other changes as well, but for now he still has rather decent 1v1/2 and splitpush power.
Juice (EUNE)
: Great job on the decision to revert Akali Riot
Where did they decide to “revert” Akali? News to me. But the work that goes into a revert requires dumping all the new assests and trying to rebuild the old ones if they got rid of them. It’s too mch work, especially when people were previously calling for champs to get reworked because of the nature of their kits. So no. I don’t buy this one bit. Besides, most of the reworks solved the actual problems those champs had, they just need some adjusting. Some more than others, but just adjusting nevertheless.
: what i really want to know is, who made this and why? when are aerodynamics of a cow going to be relevant? by the way, if you hate aatrox design, its fine. but he is a juggernaut in his current iteration. its just that if he didnt build flat ad to 3 shot squishies, he would be hot garbage. its a problem that a lot of juggernauts have in this meta. we dont live long enough to carry via sustained damage. so we all itemize into burst.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tLuNKQ6I,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-03T12:29:11.797+0000) > > what i really want to know is, who made this and why? when are aerodynamics of a cow going to be relevant? Must’ve been preparing for Alistar’s Q-W combo. > by the way, if you hate aatrox design, its fine. but he is a juggernaut in his current iteration. its just that if he didnt build flat ad to 3 shot squishies, he would be hot garbage. > > its a problem that a lot of juggernauts have in this meta. we dont live long enough to carry via sustained damage. so we all itemize into burst. Is this why Cleaver has supposed fallen out of grace compared to Trinity, since Trinity has more burst with the Sheen+Sterak’s while Cleaver is more utility and focused more on sustained damage in how the armor shred stacks?
: I don't get it, is that like aerodynamics of a cow?
> [{quoted}](name=Bobloser3555,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tLuNKQ6I,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:26:55.491+0000) > > I don't get it, is that like aerodynamics of a cow? Clearly it’s a math problem. If Jimmy has 5 cookies and that cow says “you can’t milk those,” what is the aerodynamacity the cow needs in order to Joey to have a 6th cookie?
: > [{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=XuKhuyfO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-01T10:18:22.571+0000) > > The bolded statement is wholly incorrect. The IFS doesn't just decide "okay, this player is Dishonorable, so it won't matter if the reports filed against them are valid or not, report will now equal a punishment 100% of the time" - it doesn't work that way. If you're Dishonorable, all that means is that you're locked out of the benefits of the Honor System until you regain standing. I am fairly certain this isn't correct. Similar to how the tribunal system used to work, your reports have a certain value based on how often you report and for what. Riot obviously has some kind of system. Otherwise the guy who reports every single teamate for everything counts as much as the guy who only reports when its worth it. And once you get punished your reports aren't worth anything anymore. And I know for certain that reports count more toward you. There are people who get instant banned from a single report from a single game months after they "turned themselves around". No one gets banned for a single game unless you have a history. > The italicised statements are conditionally correct. As far as I know, if you get punished once (a chat restriction), you get dropped to Honor Level 1 and Honor Locked. Only if you get punished _after_ that, or if you receive an escalated penalty (due to zero-tolerance chat or gameplay misbehavior) do you get pushed down to Honor Level 0. > > As for the other two statements, though; _yes, future punishments get harsher, **because you're not supposed to keep breaking the rules.**_ If you don't let up with the misbehavior, then neither will Riot, and they want to try and hammer home the message that you need to stop misbehaving as clearly as possible. Hence, the punishment ladder doling out increasingly harsh punishments up to the permanent ban. > > As for taking months to unlock/regain Honor - that's chalked up to two things; 1. You need to _prove_ that you can play by the rules, and that takes time and effort, and 2. if it's taking unreasonably long to regain Honor, then the issue might be that you're still misbehaving and getting validly reported for it. Either way, it's the system working as intended. Is it? When most people just reroll a free new account thats at honor level 2, instead of bothering? You think that playing for nearly a season, ineligible for any prize to "re-earn" works? No buddy, people just roll a new account. > Holding that perspective gives me reason to assume that you might be one of the "strictly free-to-play" variety of players. I'm willing to bet that most people who play the game tend to invest more than just time into the game - and having so much invested into an account is a pretty compelling reason for players to want to fix their accounts. My question would be why would you be anything but a free to play player at this point? Shit this forum is FILLED with people who RESPOND to trolls and get punished. Why risk your money when you are just a few games of calling someone bad and being punished? > But, my question is, why put yourself through that trouble in the first place? It's not exactly difficult to adhere to the rules, so letting yourself slip and letting your tilt run amok is wholly detrimental, since, and I'll use both varieties - paying players and free-to-players - for example: Its so difficult that they literally invented a system to give you free shit for NOT breaking the rules by being honorable. Hell before the honor system they had that other system and "friendly" players were so rare it was literally a badge of honor. > If you pay for content, then breaking the rules puts your account - and the time and money you invested in it - at risk. You have to take time to prove that you can do better, and regain good standing with Riot, and altogether cause yourself more suffering than you did any relief in letting your tilt/anger out. > > And if you're strictly free-to-play, then breaking the rules puts you in a position where you've either got to commit time into regaining Honor, or grinding a new account into a position to supersede the last one. Either way, you're still gonna be pouring more time into fixing a problem that was wholly avoidable if you'd just played by the rules. Also this is another thing that is stupid. You force me, a troll and veteran player, to get a new account by putting me into a bunch of new player games? I literally just dunk on them allllll day, ruin their experiences, make the quit the game etc. Its ALMOST as bad as trolling. And this system encourages it. > And what good does that do? Because you can't control your anger, you decide "fuck it, I'll just become part of the biggest problems League faces, because why not?" > > And I want a legitimate answer, and not the obvious "because trolling/making people raeg/breaking the rules feels good". What good does it do you to just throw up your hands and say, "welp, I CBA to show a little restraint, so I guess I'll just turn this account into a trolling account"? > > I know it's easy to take the low road, but I really want to know _why_. _Why_ do people choose the low road, choose to flip Riot and every other player the bird, and troll. Because why not? That account is punished for months, and no amount of encouragement is going to make it fixed. The nicest guy in the world has 1 bad game promo game where his top goes 0-15, and boom all your honor is gone for months. I mean this is LITERALLY the case, it doesn't matter if you were Honor 5, 3, 100; you get punished? Back to 1/0 for you. No rewards no nothing. And I have control. If I feel myself starting to rage I let off some steam on some other bastards on my other account, that is "honor jail" so who cares what happens to it. Let some steam out on trolling and saying whatever I want, and then switching back. Its the same reason people smurf. Riot has created a game, that you cant leave or you get punished, that you cant surrender because of a troll. A person can literally hold you hostage for 20mins, and if you react AT ALL boom, your "just as bad as him". And since they on a troll account they don't care. You have to grin and bear it or lose your stuff. Riot has created a perfect troll environment and thats why people do it.
> And I have control. If I feel myself starting to rage I let off some steam on some other bastards on my other account, that is "honor jail" so who cares what happens to it. Let some steam out on trolling and saying whatever I want, and then switching back. That is not control though. If you had control, you wouldn’t do it period, and find healthier ways to let out your frustration. That is still following your urge to break the rules, just under a different name. That is not control. Personal example of when I used to get frustrated by random stuff: My answer when I lived at my parents’ house was usually to go downstairs and punch on a punching bag, or, if school frustrated me, I’d walk home and feel better by the time I got there. Those were much healthier outlets, especially because no one would suffer.
ozzzz666 (NA)
: So instead of building armor against them like a dummy, try building the stat that counters true damage. People get so hung up on building the same way or on certain builds against certain champs, and don't even try to actually build against what they are dealing with in real time. They have true damage? What do you build against true damage? Obviously you don't build armor. There is only one stat that defends against it. SO BUILD THAT.
As GigglesO says, only works until that have %health true damage. Yes, there is only one stat that supposedly “counters” true damage. There is also only pure health item for tanks. Unless you’re seeing people build something like Frozen Heart or IBG, every time someone buys a tank item they’re buying the stat hat “counters” true damage (and sometimes, they might buy those for other reasons, like the slows or the enemy team has other physical damage). Yet..we’re still in this issue *pondering* maybe, just maybe, true damage is an unhealthy way of dealing with tanks, especially from a Rune.
: honestly i cant truly comment on the part about comments mainly due to that fact that there removed (a bad feature, rather than hidden and you must click to reveal them a far better system) i must say if there was no profanity or any comments about how people should kill themselves there should be no real problem but small children cant handle big or difficult arguments (given your starting this thread and that nothing was actually wrong). now on the part where its under gameplay its not incorrect for it to be in gameplay or story, art, & sound but if he must find fault for it being in the wrong place it would be far far more accurate for him to say that it belongs more in general discussion as it pertained to gameplay (to a small extent kinda last paragraph at least) and story, art, & sound so i must agree that his judgment was wrong here most definitely. p.s. please excuse that this is 2 very long run on sentences with bad grammar and next to no punctuation.
The comments was little to no profanity, but a large amount of condescension and just downright insulting just for commenting and disagreeing with the subject of the thread, to where it almost seemed like trolling. The comments in here are not far off from the ones in there.
: Penetration doesnt WORK. There is perfect item for bruisers that has penetration {{item:3071}} DESPITE ITS FUCKING EXISTENCE THEY HAD TO ADD CONQUEROR. I have better fucking idea, remove conqueror and nerf tanks to the ground already.
> [{quoted}](name=SuffocateMeDaddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1AEA9JvK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-02T18:30:36.463+0000) > > Penetration doesnt WORK. There is perfect item for bruisers that has penetration {{item:3071}} DESPITE ITS FUCKING EXISTENCE THEY HAD TO ADD CONQUEROR. I have better fucking idea, remove conqueror and nerf tanks to the ground already. Penetration used to be one of the best answers for tanks. Mixed damaged, % damaged, and armor pen. The fact that no one built it or any armor pen is probably a good reason as to why people struggled with tanks, rather opting for Trinity which, while adding some DPS, has more of a burst-like pattern with Sheen procs. Odds are, if fighters actually built the items that are supposed to help with tanks, they wouldn’t have as much trouble, instead of building to kill Squishier champs faster.
CatSith (NA)
: there was a reason they removed it in the first place. it was too powerful with all 3 components together, so its better to move it to his R which he won't have up as much as his W.
> [{quoted}](name=CatSith,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EhG1FlAA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-01T22:23:26.917+0000) > > there was a reason they removed it in the first place. it was too powerful with all 3 components together, so its better to move it to his R which he won't have up as much as his W. Thing is, it was fine on him after release and with some of the minor changes they made. W became too much when they changed how the damage calculated but didn’t change the percentage much (max rank dealing...20% max health?). The shield and unstoppable where healthy together back on release, it was the damage that broke the ability, but Riot wanted him to keep the more damage because it was “consistent”, despite the %current having been a healthier iteration for him *grumbles over the Forge*
: True Damage isn't common.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=myImTiJn,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-01-01T20:11:08.254+0000) > > True Damage isn't common. When it’s available as a possibility on almost every fighter or adc through a rune or item, I’d say it’s pretty common.
: Yeah the tank buster that NEVER WAS ABLE TO WIN LANE AGAINST TANKS. FIORA ALWAYS GOT DESTROYED BY TANKS. Stop forming this false narrative fiora is a tank buster when she would ALWAYS lose to tanks due to them just rushing bramble vest.
> [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=myImTiJn,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2019-01-01T21:13:32.685+0000) > > Yeah the tank buster that NEVER WAS ABLE TO WIN LANE AGAINST TANKS. > > FIORA ALWAYS GOT DESTROYED BY TANKS. Stop forming this false narrative fiora is a tank buster when she would ALWAYS lose to tanks due to them just rushing bramble vest. Important aspect here: lategame tank-buster. As she gets her items she becomes harder and harder to deal with as a tank. Bramble pretty much only reduces her healing late game, but by that time she handles tanks quite well. You should not be strong against every class of champ at all times. Fiora is late-game, she should have some opening to shut her down early becore she can split push almost non-stop.
Snowbrand (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=After3perma,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ixTBnEdk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-02T08:37:05.045+0000) > > Let’s take Conqueror against everything. Even if there are no tanks in the game, let’s still take Conqueror. > It wasn't ment to be an anti-tank keystone only, that's why it also gives u ad and there isn't really any options for bruisers, so taking it away would make bruisers useless i many cases. > Oh you built Ninja Tabi and Thornmail to counter Trynda or Jax, it doesn’t matter because Conqueror will make that armor useless. > Ninja tabi stops a % of your aa dmg so it's the same as before so it still works. > Oh you build Zhonya’s to try and counter Zed, Conqueror will make that armor useless. > LOL > Let’s take Conqueror and destroy tanks at all stages of the game. Let’s take Conqueror and overkill squishy champions. > There are better keystones if you want to overkill squishies. It only deals 20 % true dmg tho. The rest you can tank as usual. The problem before was that brusiers never could kill tanks. > Full tanks cannot tank anymore. Squishy champs that build one armor item still die just as quick while making the armor item useless. > Yea, tanks might need some buffs. Squishies dying too fast isn't because of conqueror. LOL. > Other keystones average around 1000 damage all game and these keystones are adaptive damage and have cooldowns. Conqueror can achieve more than 7000 damage all game with no downtime and it deals true damage. But what gets nerfed? The other keystones. Conqueror only had a -4AD nerf at level 1. > You are lying. Yea, in the worst of games compared to the best of games with conqueror then your math would be possible, but that's like saying Ostersund is a better team then Arsenal because they beat them in one game. Also it might do a bit more dmg because tankier champions usually takes longer to kill so you will have to do more dmg with your keystone before you kill them.
> The problem before was that brusiers never could kill tanks. Ok, pointing this out real quick. If a fighter is building damage items in a way to deal a lot of up front damage, why should they kill a tank? Why should 0 investment in % armor pen or shred mean anyone should be able to kill tanks? Yes, sustained damage is better against tanks, but you should still have to build to handle them and not just get handed a rune that allows you to kill them easily while building to deal more burst damage. You shouldn’t be able to kill both easily. Want to be able to kill a tank without it? How about Cleaver/Whisper, attack speed, PtA? Let’s also not forget that Conquerer encourages stacking on minions before even fighting so you have an instant advantage, and so discourages trading. Similar issue to things like old Q crit Vayne and the high burst adcs had at one point. Tanks have been dealing more damage, and that’s an issue. Tanks are getting more damage and less defensives, which is also a massive issue. But that doesn’t mean you should introduce another horrible mechanic just to Correct an issue. Edit: fighters are fine to want their own rune, but many seemed to want, or at least do now, Fervor back, because it was a better designed keystone than Conquerer will likely ever be.
: So many conqueror threads
I wasn’t around before that patch, but I highly doubt “no one really complained.” Foghters had a right to a sustained damage keystone, but no one wanted more true damage, especially with how the rune gets prepped outside of champion combat, whereas old fervor required to be in combat against champs for the best results. PTA is better in that regard, but there were fighter mains out there that complained that they had to auto 3 times before it would proc and it wasn’t good enough. It’s an issue when you can pick up a rune and handle both tanks and squishier champs at the same time despite buildingore to kills squishier champs.
: So i was just casually looking through the top ranks of EUW challenger. I counted to 30 than i got bored because i could only find two toplaners. One plays rumble, the other akali. Well and i wanna be fair he plays irelia but that's irelia issue not conq. MAN THIS FUCKIN CONQ EVERYONE ABUSES HOW BROKEN IT IS. Oh wait. They don't. Conq literally does what it was designed to do: Give bruisers lategame scaling and let them actually hurt tanks. Conq champs still lose laning phase to grasp or electrocute or even fiora with klepto. Mages destroy the game left and right OH GOD CONQ IS SO OP. Jungle 1v9s every game for 2 years now OH GOD THIS FUCKIN CONQ RUINS THE GAME Kha zix has been absolute broken tier for two years MAN IF HE DIDNT HAVE CONQ ITS SO OP Supports are better carries than mid or toplaners... FUCKIN CONQ MAN This is the most ridiculous and pathetic circlejerk i've ever seen on these shitty boards. Actually only topped by s6 Zed gutting. WHAT ZED HAS A 51% WINRATE OH GOD RIOT YOU MUST BE CRAZY HE IS SO BROKEN. Then riot absolutely shitstomped him into azir tier 45% winrate and now YOU STILL CIRCLEJERK ABOUT ZED BEING OP. When he has 22 seconds before he can actually use his kit again like dear fuckin god get real boards.
Perhaps not every fighter should be able to build to kill squishies and also be strong against tanks? If your build is more bursty like Trinity+Sterak’s, perhaps you shouldn’t be able to face a tank as well and require something like Cleaver+Whisper item..
: Funny, some people are like "Why are you over explaining the Hearthbound in exposition?!" and other people are like, "Wait what exactly are the Hearthbound?" .... Sometimes as a writer you can't win. Hearthbound are regular humans, you and me. As opposed to Iceborn, spiritwalkers, fireborn (aka Hearthborn), stormborn, etc... i.e. the superhuman, magically gifted folk. Hearthbound speaks to the fact that we (regular humans) need fire to survive in harsh Freljordian winters. While spiritwalkers, Iceborn etc... can survive in climates we can't.
> [{quoted}](name=WAAARGHbobo,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=luKNAK3m,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2018-12-20T21:00:43.197+0000) > > Funny, some people are like "Why are you over explaining the Hearthbound in exposition?!" and other people are like, "Wait what exactly are the Hearthbound?" .... Sometimes as a writer you can't win. > > Hearthbound are regular humans, you and me. > > As opposed to Iceborn, spiritwalkers, fireborn (aka Hearthborn), stormborn, etc... i.e. the superhuman, magically gifted folk. > > Hearthbound speaks to the fact that we (regular humans) need fire to survive in harsh Freljordian winters. While spiritwalkers, Iceborn etc... can survive in climates we can't. Yeah, descriptions are a tough thing to work out in writing. It’s tough to get the right amount of balance for both (experienced that with a recent Star Wars side story I wrote from my roleplay group and my wife proofreading). While tricky in a comic format, perhaps a brief glimpse in the actual writing, and an appendix of sorts (could just be a link on Universe) for more in depth. That way, those who want more info on a group can find it. That’s really interesting. I wasn’t sure if it was mostly just a name or if there was something behind it after Ornn’s lore, like ancient descendants, but your explanation makes a lot of sense. Clever use to build the name.
: Ashe: Warmother. Issue #1. Avail nows!
I loved it. I loved being about to see the conflict between her and her mother, to see more into her tribe and feel why she holds so strongly to her convictions about the Freljord, and the apparent bond she shared with Maalcrom. I felt attached to the story somehow, and look forward to it continuing. This might’ve been lore I missed elsewhere, but what exactly are the Hearthbound? Is it just the bame for a specific class of people in the Freljord? Does it have some connection to Ornn’s former people, the Hearthblood? Side note: Young blond Ashe is adorable, and, as another said elsewhere, would love to see that be a skin for her in the future.
: Because I love brainstorming Elderwood Vel'koz: Take the opposite view, instead of destroying he creates. Atlantean Vel'koz (see syndra) Darkstar or star destroyer Vel'koz Geothermal (see scorched xerath, infernal diana or fire asol) Soulstealer (see vlad) Arctic ops Chemtech/zaun (see trynds skin or urgot) Dragon destroyer (combination of dragon slayer and omegasquad, he's the ultimate hunter) Cosmic reaver (kass) Lightsbane (karth) Biohazard hazmat or radioactive
> [{quoted}](name=AbyssBeast,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oEEIEsOh,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-12-14T09:11:03.350+0000) > > Because I love brainstorming > > Elderwood Vel'koz: Take the opposite view, instead of destroying he creates. > > Atlantean Vel'koz (see syndra) > > Darkstar or star destroyer Vel'koz > > Geothermal (see scorched xerath, infernal diana or fire asol) > > Soulstealer (see vlad) > > Arctic ops > > Chemtech/zaun (see trynds skin or urgot) > > Dragon destroyer (combination of dragon slayer and omegasquad, he's the ultimate hunter) > > Cosmic reaver (kass) > > Lightsbane (karth) > > Biohazard > > hazmat or radioactive Impressive selection Kaiju based like Crabgot (only squid form), or think too close to his base?
: China banned league???
just popping in to say...whether true or not, I find this amusing shortly after China’s Invictus Gaming won the World’s trophy. Edit: typo
: How long have you been playing the game without any punishment?
I’ve been around since early 2015, only thing I’ve gotten was Leaverbuster when my internet refused to connect me to a match both in college and now at times :/
: I guess you can say he can.... bearly wait. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
> [{quoted}](name=The Whamboozler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxmR7iLA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-12-13T11:28:02.831+0000) > > I guess you can say he can.... bearly wait. > > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} How Unbearable
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T21:40:29.265+0000) > > Eh. Cho’gath is..an odd one to classify Tank Burst Assassin Bruiser Juggernaut.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-13T07:07:47.325+0000) > > Tank Burst Assassin Bruiser Juggernaut. At this point, pretty much.
: > [{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-12T18:33:19.348+0000) > > Have you met Urgot and Cho? Cho'gath is a Tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T20:49:05.032+0000) > > Cho'gath is a Tank. Eh. Cho’gath is..an odd one to classify
: considering skyrim has the depth of a kiddie pool and is mostly just roaming around the place it isn't surprising skyrim is that small. and 19 GB isn't even that much, you frequently see games which are 50 GB big nowadays
> [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzA2y1Lz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-07T04:12:51.973+0000) > > considering skyrim has the depth of a kiddie pool and is mostly just roaming around the place it isn't surprising skyrim is that small. > > and 19 GB isn't even that much, you frequently see games which are 50 GB big nowadays *looks toward ARK: Survival Evolved and the coming pirate survival game, Atlas*
Moody P (NA)
: Yorick is fundamentally bad and shouldn't be allowed to be good. He is easily one of _the_ most binary, one-dimensional shit sacks the game has ever seen. Balanced exclusively around Triforce, only good if the meta lets him get it ASAP, only good if you ignore him because he's a shitty splitpusher otherwise, and only good if you're playing a champion who's barely less limited than he is. SolCrushed should apologize for putting this sham of a rework on us.
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hKONImT5,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T17:15:59.187+0000) > > Yorick is fundamentally bad and shouldn't be allowed to be good. He is easily one of _the_ most binary, one-dimensional shit sacks the game has ever seen. Balanced exclusively around Triforce, only good if the meta lets him get it ASAP, only good if you ignore him because he's a shitty splitpusher otherwise, and only good if you're playing a champion who's barely less limited than he is. > > SolCrushed should apologize for putting this sham of a rework on us. Yorick was built around a similar pattern to Nasus. If that’s the case, Nasus should never be allowed to be good. Yorick and Nasus are both strong splitpush champs, possibly the strongest. Yorick was designed now to summon minions and push, an objective focused champ. Maybe you should ask the Yorick mains on reddit what they think on that statement that he’s binary and balanced exclusovely around trinity, when. They have other builds for him as well depending on matchup. Old Yorick was even more binary, a win lane-lose game champ. The community was in agreement. His kit then was deemed so toxic by the community and Riot that they dumpstered him, left him terrible, took him off the free champ rotation along with old Poppy, leaving them both in terrible states for years until they could change them to be more healthy. No buffs, nothing, because as soon as they got something, they’d instantly be too strong. What was old Yorick good at? Harassing with ghouls, that was mostly it. What was old Yorick balanced around after a certain point? Manamune. He was one of the most toxic and binary champs pre-rework. New Yorick? Ghouls are tough to get right, but generally he’s healthier. People have opportunties to actually play against him. And he is one of the top splitpushers. Even with nerfs he’s one of the top. His boggest issue right now is his ghoul’s having gotten nerfed so much (someone did a calculation on reddit to say they are weaker than regular minions after a certain point, but don’t have access to it) and his W is too easily countered by mobility champs, but he’s a Juggernaut so kiting is a weakness of his. Yes, they nerfed him too far. Yes, his ghouls have weird interactions like how they auto target when yorick gets attacked which screws him over with towers. But no, old Yorick was far worse of a champion than new Yorick, and the rework brought him out of the coffin they had him in, much like with Poppy. Keep the Rework. Edit: oh hey, he’s at a 50% winrate in plat+ currently, with a 1.4% pickrate. Likely mains, but still pretty good. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Yorick/Top/
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Iota Theta

Level 49 (NA)
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