: What Happened to K/DA Kai'Sa?
K/DA Kai’sa apparently was very much the choreographer of the group. She kind of had that dance bit in the bridge/interlude spot. I was a little sad she wasn’t shown to do more in the video. Was a good opportunity to flesh out some side personality of the skin. Baseless headcanon time: it’s said that K/DA Kai’sa was the main singer of the chorus. Turns out, Kai’sa did sing that when recording, but when it came to shows and the videos, Ahri and Evelynn took more of the spotlight. So the music video we saw was intentionally that way (in universe). Kai’sa got bothered, decided to try a solo album to show all her music and dance skills, which is K/DA Prestige Kai’sa. Reports say Ahri and Akali were supportive, Eve was..Eve, which is why it seems like Kai’sa is still a part of K/DA.
Anìmê (NA)
: > She takes towers as well as most juggernauts Ok but the rest of the juggernauts have more CC and teamfight potential than her. You undervalue Malphite E against champions. That attack speed slow is brutal. Also I think lowering Malphite's damage on Q and giving it a stronger slow would help him, but overall I think a New Q would do him enough.
> [{quoted}](name=Anìmê,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojwuWtU4,comment-id=001d000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-16T23:35:32.602+0000) > > Ok but the rest of the juggernauts have more CC and teamfight potential than her. She also has a bit more range on those tentacles that other juggernauts. Depending on what you’re teamfight intent is. She’s great in disengage/counterengage comps because the enemies come to her. > You undervalue Malphite E against champions. That attack speed slow is brutal. Also I think lowering Malphite's damage on Q and giving it a stronger slow would help him, but overall I think a New Q would do him enough. It’s really only useful on auto attacks..which is brutal on ADCs, but beyond that..casters don’t really care, tanks don’t care. He still doesn’t quite fulfill the anti-AD as much as he possibly could. His armor bonus is the main thing, and the cripple for autoattackers. Everything else feels separate. His model and lore desperately need updating though alongside general gameplay, which puts him more in VGU territory. As said in another thread, he’s very meta dependent and touching him even a tiny bit outside cause cause large issues when that rolls around
: > She doesn't even have meaningful interactions with her fucking father, Kassadin. This one makes sense. One of Kassadin's most defining personality traits is that he thinks his family is dead. He's currently on a reckless "nothing left to lose" rampage against the void and doesn't seem to care about sharing his knowledge about the void hearts with others. If Kassadin were to learn Kaisa is alive, it would lead to a drastic change in character, which is probably why the voice lines are set up to show they haven't met.
Does either lore confirm they are father/daughter? I know his daughter ended up in the Void and he’s looking for her, but was there confirmation that Kai’sa is her?
: Kass is not her dad. Malz threw his daughter into the void, but Kai Sa's lore states her parents died when she was younger.
That’s Kass’s old lore. Now he just lost her to the Void.
: Could I ask where you get that Malzahar threw his daughter into the Void in front of him? Kassadin's bio says he wasn't present when the Void consumed his village. And then it says >When he finally reached the place where his village had once stood, he found only shifting sand and rubble. He clawed at the debris until his hands bled, screaming out his wife and daughter’s names, though no answer came. And then it doesn't have any scene with Malzahar and implies that they've never met, though Kassadin does seek him.
That...was actually in the original lore, in one of an entries for the Journal of Justice. Happened in..i think the old Zaun, Malzahar tried to sacrifice her, Kassadin show up and tried to stop it, she got sicked in, Kassadin got blamed for a power outage. The usual.
Anìmê (NA)
: This is about who needs work done. A champion kit being newer does not make it inherently better. Some of the more recently updated champions like Shaco which you agreed with needs a full VGU even though he was updated in the Assassin Update. Vi is this fighter that is supposed to get into the thick of things yet she has to build full damage to try to assassinate 1 target. If she can not do so she is utterly useless. She does not offer enough CC or take enough hits when building tank to justify building tankier unless you are unable to one shot and then you are an ult bot. Illaoi is not about how hard she is to face which she isn't. It is that she does not fit any role and can not do any job well enough. She needs a way to kill turrets faster to be a scary split push champion or she needs better ways to deal consistent damage in teamfights. Malphite I believe could be fixed with minor changes. Like a larger delay on his ultimate to free up more power to be added to the rest of his kit. Maybe a new Q and the just number changes and scaling changes after that. But he could aslo just get a full VGU. Hecarim is one of the worst feast or famine champions in the game. He should get an update soon because he has been relatively neglected. Having to build a grevious wounds item and qss to fight Nasus is not ok. He needs a new passive, and either a new E or a new W. 2012 was almost 7 years ago. Rek' Sai is one of Riots greatest failed releases up there with Ivern. She needs tremor sense removed or a complete overhaul. That champion can't be balanced with free information early and a super strong early game kit. It is as oppressive as Nidalee in her prime. Renekton needs some kit modernization. He is one of the most binary champions left. Since when is Quinn a top tier VGU champion? When didRiot say this? All champions are functional, that is not my issue with any champion. It is how they interact with the current champion roster and the game in general. Quinn just needs some way to feel better to play as and against since no one likes facing her she is in this state that also isn't much fun to play anymore. How to start fixing Ryze: Remove the point and click, ranged, hard CC, that is on a basic ability. Then fix from there. Also being in a stable place does not mean it is healthy.
>Illaoi is not about how hard she is to face which she isn't. It is that she does not fit any role and can not do any job well enough. She needs a way to kill turrets faster to be a scary split push champion or she needs better ways to deal consistent damage in teamfights. Illaoi is a strong “you better think twice about that engage” champ, which also makes her effective in split pushing. She takes towers as well as most juggernauts, and she can handle a good number of opponents that might try to stop her. Her tentacles need some QoL, like a bit different way to set them up cause her passive can either destroy her or help her, and they need to not be visible in fog when attacking in a spot with no vision. In bushes I can understand, but if she’s in the jungle and you can’t see her, you shouldn’t be able to see her tentacle slams. >Malphite I believe could be fixed with minor changes. Like a larger delay on his ultimate to free up more power to be added to the rest of his kit. Maybe a new Q and the just number changes and scaling changes after that. But he could aslo just get a full VGU. That won’t help Malphite much. He needs much more extensive work. For someone who’s supposed to be more of an anti-AD champ, he doesn’t always seem to feel that way outside of his W passive. His ultimate and Q spam tend to be his most complained about skills though, and ult is his only hard CC and no way to refresh defenses in combat for an extra spike of tank, and his AP build is just too much at times.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmpUALVY,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-16T17:44:24.554+0000) > > What other options are there for tank items? Deadman's plate doesn't work well on a character not meant to be doing damage, and neither does iceborn gauntlet. The only other lines would be {{item:3056}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3190}} {{item:3143}}, the last of which is about 1000 gold inefficient with the coldsteel passive not stacking. > > So thanks for your useless comment with no productive value whatsoever, dickwad. That is no way to talk to a fellow summoner. Dead Man’s passive only increases the damage of the next auto, every non mage autos in fights. The other part if the passive helps with engages because you are moving in faster. Dead Man’s and IBG are **not** meant only for those that deal damage. They are tank/fighter items, but are 90% defense based. Righteous Glory is similar with it’s active. Yes, the armor is lowers, but you get a good amount of mana and health. Sunfire grants both armor and health, and allows you to damage by standing among them. How about Warmog’s for the extra health? Or finish building Targon’s Brace into...whatever it’s called now..The tank support item. The point people are making is between Cleaver, Yasuo’s ult, armor pen (if Draven built it) and true damage from IE and Conquerer, all that armour meant little to them nothing without extra health. In short: Armour/MR without health is not beneficial, especially against shred, pen, and true damage.
Nirvinian (EUW)
: I don't think its a matter of who is tankier here . . aatrox, apparently based on itemization builds, deals a lot more damage . . or atleast SHOULD. So that is why you cannot kill him before he does to you. You have health, armor, and resistance. He has . . damage, armor penetration and a bit of lethality . . all that shreds defense builds.
Heck, they barely had any health built. Thornmail gives I think the lowest health of the tank items and they’re sitting on a Targon’s Brace. No wonder Aatrox could survive longer. Not to mention Draven would’ve likely been better handled with a health+armor instead of Frozen Heart.
: When people refuse to /ff
I mean..if there’s no turrets left that nexus will explode soon enough anyway.
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaHo_U8PWKY The items are to match the AD, CDR and penetration of a standard build. Since dummies have 100 armor, could't build him full armor shred. The cinderhulk change is primarily to bring it in tune with ancient golem. In an ideal world I'd re implement the quill coat (there's a post on it in GP+) however I doubt riot will do that. For your edits: all good, meanwhile I'm chillin @4:20 in the afternoon. Lookin forward to readen
Interesting. That’s painful to watch. I’m curious to see full build zed vs naut now. Ah. I started around Cinderhulk, so I didn’t know much about Ancient Golem in terms of balance. That makes a bit more sense why you’d push it that way. I’ll have to research and look into that thread about quill coat to learn more. As for some of the tanks, mainly ones I’ve played or have the most interest in... {{champion:89}} agreed. She’s in a good spot. The passive procs on minions and monsters would be amazing to allow her to possibly deviate outside of support, but that’s not really a necessity at this point. {{champion:20}} I kind of addressed. He plays pretty well from what I’ve used of him. The first part of E feels the worst in his kit, because it’s mainly to mark for the rooting, but I’ve had many times people easily escaping from the root portion. ~~Maybe a slow for the snowballs? I mean, they do such pitiful damage on the tank side of things. I see on the reveal page they talk about comboing it with ult in order to slow them..but..doesn’t feel the greatest.~~ Now...{{champion:54}} love this guy. I loved his lore, his design, his theme. First champion I bought because..well..a tank that’s a giant rock monster (this was after his base splash update). I was disappointed by the actual model design over time, just cause he didn’t feel like this massive being of rock. His VO lines are really limited and it shows. But that’s not what we’re really discussing here. From a gameplay perspective, he’s supposed to essentially be the ultimate anti-AD tank with his passive. To a degree, he doesn’t really feel this way outside of his W passive and maybe E, and E’s debuff only works for auto attacking champs. I’d love to see him focused more into an anti AD tank beyond his W passive..somehow. But right now, from what I’ve seen, the main compaints people have about him are Q poke spam in lane and the power in his ultimate, being a fast, large knockup with massive damage potential (100% AP), and it’s his only hard CC. My design ideas aren’t always the most sound though, so I’m not sure how to go about it. He’s definitely one of the more frontloaded tanks at the moment, and I’d love to see him be a little more relevant in what he offers in a fight, even if just adjusting what E’s debuff should be. He could make the grounded effect work well given he’s an earth golem. I’d give him some form of temporary mid-combat refresh on his passive or something similar, to allow a tank spike mid fight, maybe his W refreshes his passive, increase the CD more and adjust his armor scaling for balancing. His Q and ult need major work though. Depending on how the VGU goes, he’d hopefully be more easily balanced. Unforunately, not the best suggestions, but that’s ultimately what needs done with him. Edit: so I just realized Nunu does have a slow his E. Just never noticed it. Huh
: Repairing the tank class.
So, few minor formatting nitpicks...when you describe the lethality/pen build, perhaps you should mention Zed at the start of that example, as I didn’t see him mentioned until after your said you’d link the video (I’m curious about this now) and was a little confused trying to picture the situation until the criticism of “zed wasted R on a tank”. I was slightly bummed that you didn’t include the point: > Assess every tank and suggest changes based on their current state I figured it was probably a lot, so I understand, just was looking forward to that one. All-in-all, an excellent post overall, and it’s tough to find a spot I disagree. I appreciate the mention of CotC in the runes, as I desperately miss that rune and personally favored it over Aftershock merely cause of the damage aspect. The Cinderhulk change is..odd, I will admit. In a game where aggressive junglers are at an edge and most junglers in general need to complete their item, it hurts to delay that spike for 15 armour unless there are some jungle meta shifts as well, compared to the AP or AD junglers who will get their damage jungle item for less gold and generally faster. P.s. as an old professor of mine would say, Quick sidebar, best moment of tanking for me in a long time: my Maokai match on aram with Abyssal, Spirit Visage, Gargoyle, Warmogs, Tabi, and Glacial Shroud, zoning off the enemy Brand and Zilean for a good while with Q and roots, until the enemy Shyvana and Renekton came to help them. We lost cause we couldn’t take those 4 down completely to push to their base, but man that was a blast in tanking. Edit: just saw you edited the one part back in *gleeful clapping* Edit2: I plan on coming back and commenting on some of the tanks to the best of my knowledge, especially Malphite (I’m sure a good number have seen my comments on Ornn lately), but it is almost midnight for me and gotta work in the morning. So I will be back! Summary of opinion on Malphite: needs a full VGU. I’ll go into this when I have time in the morning. Side note: {{champion:20}} are a lot of fun and have some strong clears and objective power with Q. His E snowballs are a little underwhelming in the buildup to “Willump’s turn”, ~~maybe a slow? It could be my build or something with me but it feels tough to keep enemies in range to get the root.~~ Edit: i missed that there was a slow on it. Whoops.
: Armor still worthless going into pre season
Fortunately, it’ll only be cleaver + one of the other two. LDR, Mortal Reminder, and the new Guinsoo’s all have their armor pen listed as > Unique Passive: Last Whisper So they won’t stack. I believe only the stronger of the two will be taken if all 3-4 are bought, which would be LDR/Mortal Reminder? Edit: typos
: i think illaoi isnt hard to do. **step 1:** make her tentacles not targetable from outside direct vision anymore. if the enemy doesnt have direct vision on the tentacles, the red oracles shadows or simply having them visible without being targetable is enough to communicate that theyre around. back when riot changed the tentacles to not be hidden in bushes anymore, their reasoning was that it was too hard to gage illaois power without knowing where her tentacles are. but this never justified making them also targetable by attacks from outside vision. that means no more attacking tentacles from outside of bushes. this means ranged champions have to walk up to them just as melee champions to to take them out. or they have to sacrifice a ward. this would close the gap in power between ranged and melee matchups against her, and ranged champions wouldnt have a disproportionate advantage. **step 2:** instead of her passive having a cooldown when a tentacle can be placed, the cooldown is on the **wall** instead, similar to how talons e puts walls on cooldown. this would accomplish two things. for one, she doesnt have to wait for 30 seconds to be able to put up tentacles whenever she moves around the map between lanes into a new area during the teamfight phase. she could just immediately set up a couple tentacles around walls that are nearby since they will all be off cooldown. secondly, when laning against illaoi youre a bit more rewarded for removing single tentacles. she cant just immediately replace them on the spot youve just taken one out, because she happened to sit on the cooldown, and it doesnt feel like youre pissing against the wind at times. it just makes it generally a bit better to play around the tentacles. you remove one, and the wall is now on a 20 to 10 second cooldown and you created an opening to move up and grab a couple cs or trade into her.
Isn’t there also a weird issue where you can see her tentacles slam in fog of war that needs fixed?
Anìmê (NA)
: Champions That Need VGUs
If Illaoi was up there, I would very much swap her and Malphite. A full VGU goes from model, to ability particles, to voiceover lines, to actual gameplay. Malphite needs that, Illaoi would just need a gameplaybupdate if anything, but it’s mostly how her tentacles set up and are visible that really messed with her. Malphite, on the other hand, suffers from a mostly outdated design, an old model (his base looks very little like his spash), very minimal voice over lines: Joke: caught between a rock and a hard place Taunt: you will lose Other dialogue: I’m going as fast as I can. Move. Hurt. *roar*. His niche was to be an anti-AD tank, and he doesn’t feel that way beyond his W and E. Q poke is annoying for enemies to play around cause of point-and-click, and the cripple is sometimes hard to feel. His ult has the majority of his power budget, in both the speed and the damage. Malphite is currently an ult bot, and needs major changes. His model should be larger, it’s currently very small. His head looks like one of those goofy gag noses. [For example...](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/KoAjdEjM-its-2018-and-theres-still-no-definitely-not-malphite-skin) Malphite is definitely a full VGU candidate. Illaoi, Vi? Minor gameplay level, if that.
: It is definitely a problem going forward if this is Riot's direction. It will certainly push me away from the game. We've seen it go wrong with nautilus in patch 5.5, shens rework, sion and gragas. The later 2 need nerfs to their damage Sejuani is a rather simple case to repair with a few tweaks: passive: sejuani's base stats are buffed so she isn't penalized for this kit component (she has lower MR and armor than every other tank) W-slow removed or entire spell reverted (will apply an E stack every X time). Personally the current one is a lil clunky so would pref a revert E: Semi reverted: Sejuani can apply 3-4 stacks with spells and auto attacks, allies cannot. Activating the spell causes damage and a slow that scale with the amount of stacks applied. E damage nerfed against champions Ultimate: Reverted but then nerfed: Stun duration lowered, range nerfed and explosion radius lowered (so the enemy has to be retardedly standing together to get 5manned). Ornn needs damage redistribution. There is too much dependency on brittle. Q: pillar now deals damage W: hitbox fixed so he isn't farting fire out of his ass. Brittle damage nerfed when proced with AA E: faster recovery at end of animation. Brittle deals double damage with this spell. (maybe) R: Change to make it track ornn, like ahri orb on first trip. Will make it more versatile and could open ornn up for some more power adjustment Other tank as mentioned of concern IMO are gragas and sion. But in addition are gnar mega form and amumu. Nautilus is more minor issue who needs to be reverted to pre 5.5 state
> [{quoted}](name=KrakenKnight,realm=OCE,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=bauNBaM3,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-14T02:17:15.180+0000) > > It is definitely a problem going forward if this is Riot's direction. It will certainly push me away from the game. > We've seen it go wrong with nautilus in patch 5.5, shens rework, sion and gragas. The later 2 need nerfs to their damage > > Sejuani is a rather simple case to repair with a few tweaks: > passive: sejuani's base stats are buffed so she isn't penalized for this kit component (she has lower MR and armor than every other tank) > W-slow removed or entire spell reverted (will apply an E stack every X time). Personally the current one is a lil clunky so would pref a revert > E: Semi reverted: Sejuani can apply 3-4 stacks with spells and auto attacks, allies cannot. Activating the spell causes damage and a slow that scale with the amount of stacks applied. E damage nerfed against champions > Ultimate: Reverted but then nerfed: Stun duration lowered, range nerfed and explosion radius lowered (so the enemy has to be retardedly standing together to get 5manned). > > Ornn needs damage redistribution. There is too much dependency on brittle. > Q: pillar now deals damage > W: hitbox fixed so he isn't farting fire out of his ass. Brittle damage nerfed when proced with AA > E: faster recovery at end of animation. Brittle deals double damage with this spell. (maybe) > R: Change to make it track ornn, like ahri orb on first trip. Will make it more versatile and could open ornn up for some more power adjustment > > > Other tank as mentioned of concern IMO are gragas and sion. But in addition are gnar mega form and amumu. Nautilus is more minor issue who needs to be reverted to pre 5.5 state I’ll admit, the changes to Nautilus I’m not quite recalling the impact as much. Was that when he shifted from jungle to more support? Gragas still might need attention, or a reclassification at this point. Sion’s damage as a tank (outside inting Sion) I thought many were ok with, given his sheer unreliability with his abilities. Perhaps I misjudged that one. I like some of the Sejuani adjustments you propose, although I’m partial to her current R, but that’s only my opinion. Ornn...mostly agree. * Q: I’m ok with the pillar itself not really dealing damage. The path itself is the damage portion, the pillar is more akin to Trundle’s E, used by Ornn to set up E. * W: AA proc on Brittle having reduced damage would be interesting. It’d drastically hurt the W+aa pattern, but that’d be the point. Only adjustments I might make are put the breath damage back to %current, maybe lower than it was before, as two sources of %max health damage is a bit much on him. Shield definitely needs to stay, i’d take that over Unstoppable. * E: changes are nice. The double damage on Brittle proc might be much, depends on the values, but it’d reward hitting a slower, less reliable skill, similar to Maokai with his E. Could also improve his jungling. * R..the tracking idea is interesting. I’d probably leave it as is, or if they want to make it tough, give the cast time back on R2. His ultimate had some interesting pros and cons depending on how it was executed. Farther out from the fight gave more chance to dodge the second part, but made the recast more reliable, closer into the fight made it easier to be CC’d to prevent the recast, but meant R2 hit much more reliably if successful. I understand them figuring he’d be in more risk then as he ults, instead of rewarding longer range ults, it just seems like it could be too much, at least with the reduced knockup past the first added on. If you’re gonna make him risk his ult recast by rewarding ulting closer, that second hit has got to be worth it. I don’t know many tank ults that have that many counters. Thankfully, we get another patch cycle to discuss all this before it goes live..maybe they’ll take some of these discssions into account. Tanks need work, yes, but not like this.
Askln (EUW)
: until you actually play shen into ornn you will never understand why shen beats ornn i will give you a hint your e dodges the ornns w if you are braindead and don't dodge his W your own W denies the brittle proc your q provides a far more consistent shield against tanks shen is far better than ornn in lane in the 1v1 matchup so your math is irrelevant because of the way the skills interact
> [{quoted}](name=Askln,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TEs9dPP7,comment-id=005d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T09:53:54.746+0000) > > until you actually play shen into ornn you will never understand why shen beats ornn > > i will give you a hint > your e dodges the ornns w > if you are braindead and don't dodge his W your own W denies the brittle proc > your q provides a far more consistent shield against tanks > > shen is far better than ornn in lane in the 1v1 matchup > > so your math is irrelevant because of the way the skills interact I’ve played the matchup in the past, so I have a decent enough understanding of how it goes. Shen has the edge, but it can easily become more of a skill matchup and prediction game. If Ornn knows Shen is going for the taunt combo, he can either hold W and his combo until after taunt, or use W toward where Shen will end up to try and hit him with as much breath as possible. Shen does have priority, especially with how quick his E is, allowing him if necessary to dodge out of an Ornn combo, or engage fast than Ornn can dish out his full combo, at which point Ornn’s best option is to bait it out. If Ornn gets ult that adjusts the matchup a bit more.
Gilgayu (NA)
: Tank can be bullied easily during lane-phase. Kennen can poke tanks without end Jayce can shred tanks as early as level 3 Tanks are jokes at the face of a good rumble I think Riot is trying to give tanks more power to fight against lane-bullies, but the line among tanks, brusiers, and juggarnuts is really vague already.
A point I would like to mention about those bullies is their mostly ranged when they bully, which is also an issue fighters have with them. They don’t just poke and bully tanks, but most everyone toplane because of the range and safety they have. The line is very blurred between the tanks and fighter classes, a good reason to be cautious of shifts from tank to damage power in kits. As Hibeki said, it’s possible a better solution for tanks would be to focus down on their clearing and enduring the lane, rather than their trading power. Definitely not farming like old Shen with his Q, but enough to clear but also provide opportunities for fighters and bullies to take advantage. Pulling from your response to them, I agree that tanks that should be in lane should have some better damage than jungle/support tanks. Malphite is a big example, since his tank role was designed to be more anti-AD than the rest barring maybe Rammus. The downside to jungle, as someone said in another thread about tanks, is jungle is currently favoring more aggressive junglers for scuttle contests, which usually excludes tanks outside {{champion:20}} and maybe {{champion:33}} since Smite is really the best way for them with their lower damage output. At this point, tanks need the base damages to do their jobs, preferrably not damage to the point of losing key tank aspects, which would just turn them more or less into weird fighters. Either that or, if necessary that tanks get changed to help solo play, a new way needs to be considered for balancing tanks to allow them to survive but still feel like tanks and not fighters, whether that be a part of the kit, an item, a rune, Something.
Stelyar (NA)
: Yeah that helped a lot, I'm guessing tapping refers to putting more power/investment into said ability/skill? And I didn't realize they were capping Ornn at 2 personal items, since he was able to get 6 on the PBE when I saw him, though his changes have all been reverted in the PBE at least temporarily, so I Can't say much about it now. Do you happen to have the link to that Reddit post? I'd like to take a look through those myself but I'm horrible at navigating Reddit.
> [{quoted}](name=Stelyar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=bauNBaM3,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T08:19:32.955+0000) > > Yeah that helped a lot, I'm guessing tapping refers to putting more power/investment into said ability/skill? And I didn't realize they were capping Ornn at 2 personal items, since he was able to get 6 on the PBE when I saw him, though his changes have all been reverted in the PBE at least temporarily, so I Can't say much about it now. Do you happen to have the link to that Reddit post? I'd like to take a look through those myself but I'm horrible at navigating Reddit. “Tapping” can be adjustments either way, rather than nerf/buff hammering an entire class. I think the 2 item cap was something planned, so he doesn’t just build all the tank masterwork items, perhaps just didn’t get into PBE though. It makes him choose between, as far as tank items, Infernal Mask, Forgefire Cape, and Frozen Fist (or Trinity/Cleaver for those who built it on him) instead of building all three every match. I think He also had a weird bug where, while the upgrades were free, they could still be sold at their sell value, so people would hit 11, stand in the fountain and buy and sell Obsidian Cleaver until they could buy a full build. I did see the changes reverted (temporarily relieved), so probably want more testing and bug checking before they put it through. A reasonable decision. My hope is they’ll see some of the feedback in all the tank threads that have spawned in light of their attempted changes. I unfortunately do not have a link, my apologies. For personal reasons, I’ve had to close myself off from reddit as of a few days ago. It was on r/ornnmains though, one of the bigger threads related to the changes, if that helps.
Stelyar (NA)
: Er, I'm unsure on what you mean by stat checks. It seems to refer to things like Malphite and Taric's passive armor buffs, and to some extent Sion's and Cho's hp potential? I feel like I'm missing something on that so could you explain in another way? Based on your description of steroids being the ideal balance lever, would you like to see Sejuani's moved to a more active usage? And for Ornn's new passive (on the PBE), he has the ability to get a full inventory of masterwork items, do you think the general durability from this will make up for the lost shield (aside from the loss of skill expression). Based on what I've experienced playing against it, every finished item is a powerspike, because its on average bonus 200 hp and 30 armor/35 mr, for the tank masterworks, (iceborn will give more hp instead). Feel free to rant on Ornn, since he is one of the main topics of your thread.
> [{quoted}](name=Stelyar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=bauNBaM3,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T01:10:06.956+0000) > > Er, I'm unsure on what you mean by stat checks. It seems to refer to things like Malphite and Taric's passive armor buffs, and to some extent Sion's and Cho's hp potential? I feel like I'm missing something on that so could you explain in another way? > > Based on your description of steroids being the ideal balance lever, would you like to see Sejuani's moved to a more active usage? > > And for Ornn's new passive (on the PBE), he has the ability to get a full inventory of masterwork items, do you think the general durability from this will make up for the lost shield (aside from the loss of skill expression). Based on what I've experienced playing against it, every finished item is a powerspike, because its on average bonus 200 hp and 30 armor/35 mr, for the tank masterworks, (iceborn will give more hp instead). > > Feel free to rant on Ornn, since he is one of the main topics of your thread. I can gladly..well..at least attempt to elaborate. Sometimes wording isn’t a strong suit of might. I know the stat check one was probably my weakest argument. I’ll see what I can do. When I mainly spoke of stat checks, it was mostly in regards to their passive stats, particularly through items, and perhaps stat check wasn’t the best term. The majority of tank durability comes through their items. In a similar way, DPS typically acquire their damage through items as well. Discounting the shield and damage reduction steroids, it’s often a race for both groups to secure the items they need for their roles. Coming down to equal skill, it was usually a matter of how long it took the DPS and tank to get the items they need. It didn’t often come down to outplays, but if the damager dealer had enough damage pierce the defenses, and vice versa. This became a sort of seesaw..either dps couldn't deal enough to kill a tank, or the tank died way too fast, and it’s a tough aspect to balance properly when it’s in items, and usually led to one side feeling terrible and like there was nothing they could do. With defensive steroids, and this is why I said it helps with balance, it can lead to determining “ok, let’s try tapping their steroid as opposed to the items.” Malphite and Taric could simply get their armor bonuses tapped, for example. Idk if that makes sense. Perhaps I’m wording it wrong. My apologies if so. My brain is thinking in terms of like dps and endurance checks in MMO boss fights. A more active use on Sejuani would allow for more skill expression, so it’s not always used in the run up to an engage. What I like about her steroid though compared to say, Poppy, or Half of Malphite’s W, despite of the sheer extremity of the values, is that it’s not always on, granting her that window of tankiness to do what she needs to do in an engagement. Malphite’s Shielded W is similar. There is space for passive steroids, depending on the job of said tank. Sejuani was meant to have those stats and slow immunity as she rushed in. Similarly, Malphite’s was done as he’s designed as an anti-AD tank. I do wish there was a way to get them to regain it midfight though, even if short, similar to the health boost of Gargoyle Stoneplate. From the things I’ve read on the Ornn changes, he’ll only be allowed two upgrades personally. The addition of the IBG upgrade will be interesting especially alongside Infernal Mask or Forgefire (Squad5 also said possibly Warmog’s, but it’s not through it). Someone did calculate on a reddit post and said that Ornn will get about the same or a little more value in the masterworks changes compared to the shield, especially since the shield is temporary. A point against that though is that he often more than 1 shield in a fight, which can tip the scales back in favor of the shield. However, That only calculated with Infernal and Forgefire. Frozen Fist (IBG’s upgrade) will add effective health though with the extra armour. I’m butter about the shield removal and CC changes in exchange for more damage, but I’ll probably still run him some myself for personal experience.
: No. If anything, My build is better suited for not having an HP scaling shield than yours. Defense doesn't win in league anymore and the sooner you learn that, the better off you will be. A sturdy Offense Reinforced by defensive attributes wins games. And the build I posted wasn't the only build, nor did you actually read the rest of the post. There was another guy who posted a build that FAR surpasses the stats I posted (Mine's based around Transcendence; His is based around almost entirely tank items) I don't care how pros build anything. Pros are often wrong. _**They calculate efficiency within a common set of items, **_ not ALL items. All items is too complicated an endeavor, as is all runes (You'll notice I don't run Resolve; I Run Sorcery, and I generally have good KDA's Performances on it. Lower Deaths, higher kills, and higher kill participations. I also massively outbeat them on damage, CS, and Objectives) It's not a cheese build, and I certainly don't play it just in Silver. I also rarely play Ornn right now. I play a pool of some 54 Champs proficiently, and I rarely ever get top, and there are spare few games where he's the greatest choice in the jungle. I might pull him out again once we receive his rework to abuse that 117 AD Iceborne + {{item:3042}} build to show you what their "Ornn can have multiple Masterworks" actually breaks. You don't seem to understand how the build works. And it does work. 1) It creates a possible 2000-2400 damage Brittle auto attack proc. Almost 1400 of that damage will go through, even versus tanks. 2) Phase Rush allows Ornn to cling easily, and he is extremely capable of proccing it. Meaning more successful brittle procs, more movement on W's, and also better peel when a fight gets too dangerous. 3) My Ornn can actually run away. Most Tank Ornns can't do that. E is limited in its feasibility as a run tool, and most meta champions can keep up with it. My build actually makes following dangeous, increases the distance between myself and my opponents, and allows me time to get off an R if need be. 4) My build may make Q more effective, but that doesn't mean I Max Q first. I still generally max W, and then choose Q or E secondary, depending on the cooldown I need on E to actually do my job more. If I can get away with only selectively Eing , I secondary Q. If I can't I get E. For what it's worth, Q is Both Ornn's Safest and Reliable skill. W is avoidable, and E is situational. Q doesn't stop you from reacting to a fight, slows enemies, does aoe linear damage, and sets up a potential E point. It does a lot more to set up a fight than either W or E. 5) I Guarantee you run out with just infernal, and Iceborne is basically driving yourself into a per game predictable build which might not be right for every encounter. Try building Iceborne vs Cho, and see how many times he eats you, or how effective it is at peeling Darius. I Literally NEVER have to recall. In an entire game. You, I guarantee. Does. 6) You're Bronze. If that. Level 44 account. Hardly any games. Wow. 7) Ornn's Highest win rate item is a Warmog's. Which is not a tank item, but an HP item.
Yes, because I rush IBG against a magic damage Cho’gath. Clearly a winning strategy. Tank Ornn is literally his highest winrate right now as far as listed items. Not a single non-tank item makes it on his lists..**anywhere**. Anything else is too small of a pickrate. My rank and level has little to do with my knowledge. I know a tank and what tanks are like, as confirmed by others. Plus, I barely play ranked, cause I have a kid and a job and can’t play for long periods of time. I also don’t play for damage, cause I’m a team player and rely on my team a lot..in a team game. I mentioned silver since that’s mostly what you’d be using this build against, and you still have a sub 50 winrate on Ornn. It’s an off-build used to surprise enemies with your Q damage, that’s pretty cheese, like AP Maokai (only he has more AP scalings). I don’t play Ornn to go toe to toe and deal damage. I play him to engage fights and lockdown targets. That’s his job. Damage may ultimately win games (obviously), but not every champ was designed to just build and deal damage. Tanks like Ornn are designed to engage, soak up enemy cooldowns, and lock down priority targets. Defense doesn’t win games, but proper defense and CC enables the true damage dealers. This is why “protect the carry” comps are a thing. Warmog’s is in fact a tank item. It is a capstone tank item alongside Gargoyle Stoneplate. Why? Because health, while universal, is primarily used by tanks. This is why it’s passive has a max health requirement before it’ll even activate. I dare you to make a post saying Warmog’s isn’t a tank item and see what happens. In the end, the data is on my side. Not a single site lists your builds, not a single non-tank item is built to a degree that the various data tracking sites will pick it up. The pros and high elo back up tank build Ornn. You made the claims that your builds are better. You threw out numbers and posted a pic of stats *from a practice match*. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claims and show how spectacular this is compared to tank Ornn and how everyone should build it. P.S. the person you said posted a better build with tank items? They said they don’t play Ornn, they don’t like his playstyle. And their “almost entirely tank items” were three tank items. Forgefire, Thornmail, and Gargoyle Stoneplate. Maw, Death’s Dance, and Bloodthirster are not tank items. I’m done here. You’ve complained about Ralanr and I not responding to posts when neither of us really had time to do so, you’ve made claims with just your word as proof that it works, when everything else in the game counters it because it has such a low playrate because you were likely the only one doing so, and you’ve failed to show proof that your build actually works, which would have meant that you would prove you know a champ better than everyone, even the pros. At this point, you should make a new post about this amazing build, because these posts are so far buried very few will read them. You’ve disregarded official sources stating that Ornn is a Vanguard tank because they don’t match your narrative of him. Good night.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T18:48:51.419+0000) > > Just some general-ish questions, cause I agree a number of tanks ended up with more damage than they should. > > Where is the line drawn on base damages? Beyond some of the %max health damage culprits, a number of tank damage complaints I saw in the past were more on how high their base damages were, allowing them to really hurt targets that didn’t/couldn’t build resists. > > Do you think there is a balance point on base damages where the tank doesn’t feel like they can’t clear, either in lane or in jungle, but also not blow up squishier champs with those bases and have a tougher time in 1v1 duels with fighters and other dps? Is %current health damage, obviously tuned to a reasonable level, a viable option, where Over longer instances, the fighter would quickly begin to deal more over damage, and would also allow tanks to at least interact with each other in some way? Or some other option? the solution to the base damage being excessively high or not being able to cs or waveclear is rather simple. put bonus damage against minions and monsters on those abilities. in previous seasons, we had specific jungle masteries that helped tanks deal more damage to minions and monsters, and reflect damage against them. thats why they were able to clear the jungle at a decent rate. it was actually why a lot more champions were capable of jungling. they kindof pushed this onto the jungle items, but that doesnt help laning tanks, and they still generally designed gold and xp gains in favour of aggressive junglers. a champion like a tank who cant fight other champions early on is fucked for example, because he cant contest scuttles.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T19:03:31.639+0000) > > the solution to the base damage being excessively high or not being able to cs or waveclear is rather simple. > > put bonus damage against minions and monsters on those abilities. > > in previous seasons, we had specific jungle masteries that helped tanks deal more damage to minions and monsters, and reflect damage against them. thats why they were able to clear the jungle at a decent rate. > > it was actually why a lot more champions were capable of jungling. they kindof pushed this onto the jungle items, but that doesnt help laning tanks, and they still generally designed gold and xp gains in favour of aggressive junglers. I appreciate the response. Stuff prior to Season 5 I’m not as aware of, since that was when I started, and even stuff that season was fuzzy as I tried to get a grasp on things. Don’t quite remember those masteries, so that’s interesting. The bonus to minions and monsters could be an interesting thing on a tank-by-tank basis, as there are some, like Rammus, who don’t really have need of it and have their very focused niche to balance them, like how his taunt and W work. Ornn was actually a big reason I accept %current as a much better option to %max health, although some instances of %max are balanced decently (like Maokai E being outrun). But I had felt %current was a good option, at least on him, seeing as he couldn’t hurt nearly as much but still could trade early on and push wave. Doesn’t mean it’d work for everyone though. > a champion like a tank who cant fight other champions early on is fucked for example, because he cant contest scuttles. One reason to enjoy {{champion:20}}, Q that Scuttle.
: the problem isnt that tanks are too tanky, but that riot threw a bunch of % max health damage into their kits, so theyre still able to 1v1 and kill each other. tanks just used to have a decent amount of flat base damage on their abilities. but they changed that, because people were bored watching noodle fights on top lane in pro play. is it healthy? no. they still did it. the problem is, that tanks started to unsurprisingly be able to 1v1 and win against fighters, which completely dumpstered them 2 or 3 seasons back and they were entirely invalidated for like a whole year. because why would you play a tanky carry, if you can play a tanky carry with aoe cc and team utility, who will never be irrelevant? the core of the problem is really that riot doesnt want to really make tanks. they just want them to be fighters with team utility essentially. the only tanks who are allowed to be tanks happen to be supports. {{champion:89}} {{champion:44}} etc.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-14T17:50:31.907+0000) > > the problem isnt that tanks are too tanky, but that riot threw a bunch of % max health damage into their kits, so theyre still able to 1v1 and kill each other. > > tanks just used to have a decent amount of flat base damage on their abilities. > > but they changed that, because people were bored watching noodle fights on top lane in pro play. is it healthy? no. they still did it. > > the problem is, that tanks started to unsurprisingly be able to 1v1 and win against fighters, which completely dumpstered them 2 or 3 seasons back and they were entirely invalidated for like a whole year. > > because why would you play a tanky carry, if you can play a tanky carry with aoe cc and team utility, who will never be irrelevant? > > the core of the problem is really that riot doesnt want to really make tanks. they just want them to be fighters with team utility essentially. the only tanks who are allowed to be tanks happen to be supports. {{champion:89}} {{champion:44}} etc. Just some general-ish questions, cause I agree a number of tanks ended up with more damage than they should. Where is the line drawn on base damages? Beyond some of the %max health damage culprits, a number of tank damage complaints I saw in the past were more on how high their base damages were, allowing them to really hurt targets that didn’t/couldn’t build resists. Do you think there is a balance point on base damages where the tank doesn’t feel like they can’t clear, either in lane or in jungle, but also not blow up squishier champs with those bases and have a tougher time in 1v1 duels with fighters and other dps? Is %current health damage, obviously tuned to a reasonable level, a viable option, where Over longer instances, the fighter would quickly begin to deal more over damage, and would also allow tanks to at least interact with each other in some way? Or some other option?
: I'm aware. Ralanr questioned the possibility to obtain such stats, and I answered only this. Whether it works is entirely out of my area of expertise, as I don't play Ornn. Illabethe played 4 ranked games as Ornn in the last four weeks (according to [op.gg](http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Illabethe)), and none features any sort of high AD build. Moreover, their kills/deaths ratios on these four matches are close to their average this season, so it's unlikely the to me and for now fantasised perfect AD build is anything they can use well in a majority of cases. Alternatively again: Maw of Malmortius, Zz'rot portal, Ravenous hydra, Forgefire cape, Death's dance, Frozen heart for a total of 346 AD, 354 Armour, 175 MR, 40% CDR. If anything, it feels quirky, and rather slow, though a well-aimed ultimate I suppose can offset the lack of boots. Not a build I would try out in a real game, but, again, I'm not fond of Ornn's playstyle to begin with.
> [{quoted}](name=NepgearDesu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=00060000000100010001000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T15:08:59.207+0000) > > I'm aware. Ralanr questioned the possibility to obtain such stats, and I answered only this. Whether it works is entirely out of my area of expertise, as I don't play Ornn. > Illabethe played 4 ranked games as Ornn in the last four weeks (according to [op.gg](http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Illabethe)), and none features any sort of high AD build. Moreover, their kills/deaths ratios on these four matches are close to their average this season, so it's unlikely the to me and for now fantasised perfect AD build is anything they can use well in a majority of cases. > > Alternatively again: Maw of Malmortius, Zz'rot portal, Ravenous hydra, Forgefire cape, Death's dance, Frozen heart for a total of 346 AD, 354 Armour, 175 MR, 40% CDR. If anything, it feels quirky, and rather slow, though a well-aimed ultimate I suppose can offset the lack of boots. Not a build I would try out in a real game, but, again, I'm not fond of Ornn's playstyle to begin with. Ahh, I got you now. Theorizing. I misunderstood then. The image the other person posted was also a custom, which is insanely sketchy for proof, since it doesn’t show viability. Apologies for misunderstanding the intent.
K3ars3n (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Forhonor321,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-13T14:53:16.654+0000) > > Let's just do a quick review on some tanks this past season(s) and some changes coming to others: > > {{champion:516}} - lost his unstoppable (which to me made him unique) because it was making him too powerful, but now regaining it in loss of his shield, but more importantly getting an insane boost to his Brittle and Q damage. (think there was a post about doing 73% health damage with these buffs) > > {{champion:113}} - before her mini rework was OK. Afterwards was doing insane damage, got nerfed, continued to get nerfed due to her power in pro play then fell out (still got nerfed). Now losing some CC in favor of more damage to most of her abilities. > > {{champion:154}} - basically has fallen out of most play from my experience after a while. > > {{champion:111}} - changed his damage from sustain in W to burst in E from what I recall and now is just...where is he? > > I know there are more tanks that other people can give examples of and there's more details that I'm not going over for the ones I listed, but this is just the pattern I'm constantly seeing with tanks. They constantly feel like these champs, almost specifically the Vanguards, need to be dealing damage rather than providing good combat CC. Why though? > > Why does Ornn need to be dealing crap amounts of brittle damage? Why does Sej, after the failure of her rework, need to lose CC in order to get more damage? Wasn't that the main complaint about her rework? > > I don't know, it just feels like Riot doesn't know how to handle these kind of champs and they just try to shift them over to more damage dealer roles while still labeling them as "tanks" when they can almost deal as much damage as a fighter or assassin can (maybe not as fast as them, but just as much). > > Discuss, talk, do whatever on this subject. I'm just going to be in the corner and start thinking about all the ways season 9 will somehow go south, because League just feels that way nowadays to me. The problem with tank identity is as simple as it was for supports. 1. People want to feel like they are having an impact and most folks are too dumb to realize a tank going 0/7/34 with a ton of lockdown and peel for their carries was the driving force of the win. Supports wanted to feel the same. 2. Riot is too dumb to grant people vision of these things so JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH SUPPORTS, they are just giving them more damage, Presto!
This was why i was so glad they added the CC and vision scores to the postgame screen, so I could see, beyond my assists, that I had more impact than damage and kills would suggest.
: I wonder if they removed Ornns shield because of shield bash. Because honestly Ornn with shield bash would be impossible to out-trade in lane.
> [{quoted}](name=General Matty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=0031,timestamp=2018-11-14T13:19:22.265+0000) > > I wonder if they removed Ornns shield because of shield bash. Because honestly Ornn with shield bash would be impossible to out-trade in lane. It was possibly a factor. Squad5 and Meddler both have said that it’s because his W was an “I win” button, since he put out all that %max health damage between the breath and Brittle and got a shield at the same time to negate the enemy’s damage. Totally the shield at fault there, Riot...../s
Bârd (NA)
: {{champion:79}} is super bursty. {{champion:54}} is has some pretty solid burst damage. {{champion:14}} is usually fine, it's just that they went way overboard with buffing him.
> [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-11-13T21:55:43.702+0000) > > {{champion:79}} is super bursty. > {{champion:54}} is has some pretty solid burst damage. > {{champion:14}} is usually fine, it's just that they went way overboard with buffing him. That they are. Are they necessarily healthy though, cause that I don’t know. Gragas kind of has a weird identity crisis where he wants to be a tank, but he wants to also deal more damage, and has kind of ended up in this AP bruiser sort of state. Haven’t played against one in a while, so not sure how healthy he currently is or if he needs more work. Malphite will be getting changes...soon(tm). Up in the Tier 1 of VGU candidates apparently. But yeah, more bursty than others.
: https://i.imgur.com/Nr3orv8.jpg Alternatively, at level 18: Base: 127 AD, 84 Armour, 53 MR + {{item:3156}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} (210 AD, 50 MR) {{item:3373}} {{item:3075}} (180 armour) {{item:3193}} (80 Armour and MR) for a total of 337 AD, 344 Armour, 183 MR. Add the Conditioning rune and you're good to go. Might not be the best combination to reach such results, but hey, it works.
> [{quoted}](name=NepgearDesu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000600000001000100010000000000000002,timestamp=2018-11-13T14:18:16.257+0000) > > https://i.imgur.com/Nr3orv8.jpg > > Alternatively, at level 18: > > Base: 127 AD, 84 Armour, 53 MR + {{item:3156}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} (210 AD, 50 MR) > {{item:3373}} {{item:3075}} (180 armour) {{item:3193}} (80 Armour and MR) > for a total of 337 AD, 344 Armour, 183 MR. Add the Conditioning rune and you&#x27;re good to go. > > Might not be the best combination to reach such results, but hey, it works. Theoretically. No bonus mana means you’ll be proportionally using a larger chunk of your mana to fight while relying on mainly Qs, Ws, and autos, especially since autos are the inly things that net you life steal on BT. Little health investment means you go down faster, especially the various sources of true damage. Think with those items you end up < 3k, which is really low for a tank. It looks a lot like a cheese/poke build on a decent CD and mana cost for him.
: Basically, Riot finally realized that traditional tanking _does not work_ in a MOBA. From my experience here, Boards seems to want tanks to be MMO-style tanks. AKA: Giant aggro-soaks who people have to chew through before they can get to the meat. The thing is, this doesn't happen. There is no reason to focus a tank unless A.) they're out of position or B.) they're the only champion you can safely attack (Read: Out of position). Riot _finally_ understands that no, loading a trillion forms of CC onto an unkillable meatwall wasn't good for the game. The look of things is that Riot is making tanks more like Sion. Y'know, the one everyone heralds as a great tank design since Season 4: Massive damage output _if_ you're getting hit with the full rotation of spells but slow and tanky. They're also (like Sion) going to be the best at starting fights which means even if they don't have the best damage output, you'll pick one because you need someone to start. For another comparison, DOTA tanks deal a metric fuckload of damage. Tidehunter's ult does 200-380 baseline damage (improved with int.) in a massive circle around him. With around a 3 second knock-up. Almost instantly. That's a lot of damage. The thing is, you _need_ that damage (Don't even get me started on Aghs Gush) because otherwise Tidehunter is a non-factor. Tanks need damage. They always have, and they always will. Problem is Riot never understood this besides the early days when tanks had huge AP Ratios, although back then everyone did. It reached a head with Naut who did piddly damage but was a CC bot to the extreme. You are never going to get a World of Warcraft MMO tank in league without absolutely hamfisting the design like Rammus.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2018-11-14T03:58:56.814+0000) > > Basically, Riot finally realized that traditional tanking _does not work_ in a MOBA. > > From my experience here, Boards seems to want tanks to be MMO-style tanks. AKA: Giant aggro-soaks who people have to chew through before they can get to the meat. The thing is, this doesn&#x27;t happen. There is no reason to focus a tank unless A.) they&#x27;re out of position or B.) they&#x27;re the only champion you can safely attack (Read: Out of position). Riot _finally_ understands that no, loading a trillion forms of CC onto an unkillable meatwall wasn&#x27;t good for the game. > > The look of things is that Riot is making tanks more like Sion. Y&#x27;know, the one everyone heralds as a great tank design since Season 4: Massive damage output _if_ you&#x27;re getting hit with the full rotation of spells but slow and tanky. They&#x27;re also (like Sion) going to be the best at starting fights which means even if they don&#x27;t have the best damage output, you&#x27;ll pick one because you need someone to start. > > For another comparison, DOTA tanks deal a metric fuckload of damage. Tidehunter&#x27;s ult does 200-380 baseline damage (improved with int.) in a massive circle around him. With around a 3 second knock-up. Almost instantly. That&#x27;s a lot of damage. The thing is, you _need_ that damage (Don&#x27;t even get me started on Aghs Gush) because otherwise Tidehunter is a non-factor. Tanks need damage. They always have, and they always will. Problem is Riot never understood this besides the early days when tanks had huge AP Ratios, although back then everyone did. It reached a head with Naut who did piddly damage but was a CC bot to the extreme. > > You are never going to get a World of Warcraft MMO tank in league without absolutely hamfisting the design like Rammus. This isn’t quite true. We want to be walls for our teams, yes. We know we need threats to force focus because only 3 actual tanks have forced taunts, 1 of which is only a single target. We don’t necessary want an exact port into League from MMOs. But we do want tanks to be threats outside if damage. Clearly, that works outside of solo queue by looking at corrdinated groups. But in solo, damage reigns supreme. It’s why fighters are typically better than tanks in solo. People heralded Sion because he hit like a truck if he hit, but was unreliable. We didn’t want every tank to literally be Sion 2.0. Sion’s thing was he was a tank that delivered massive damage, but a tank can have similar unreliability but deliver their big impact in other ways. Ornn’s release was that way with how his CC was. Tanks are only not working in solo queue, because they don’t have as much damage compared to everyone else. And that’s fine. Yes tanks needs some damage, but, to use Sejuani and Ornn as examples, they don’t need an ability buffed by 200 damage or higher levels of %max health damage. Or a higher base power, 100% AP ratio ultimate ({{champion:54}} ). Tank mains want the teamfight power of CC, utility, and bulk. We accept some damage to do what’s needed, but after a certain point of damage, tanks just become less mobile divers and more CC juggernauts, just with a little less damage.l since no damage items. Tanks have been working, they just need the right tools, and metric tons of damage is not one of those tools.
: Sion doesn't need to hit everything. He just needs to get close enough. If you miss R, you cancel it, pop your primed W, and then start in with E and Q. That's enough to kill. You don't have to hit R. Unlike R, the rest of Sion's kit is some of the most accurate skills in the game given their size, range, and impact of slows.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000d0000000000000000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2018-11-14T05:43:36.780+0000) > > Sion doesn&#x27;t need to hit everything. He just needs to get close enough. If you miss R, you cancel it, pop your primed W, and then start in with E and Q. That&#x27;s enough to kill. You don&#x27;t have to hit R. Unlike R, the rest of Sion&#x27;s kit is some of the most accurate skills in the game given their size, range, and impact of slows. Sion. Most accurate skills. Pick one. He doesn’t fit both. The size and range doesn’t matter as much because he has to charge for a good while to get the max damage. There’s a reason he’s considered the most unreliable tank by the vast majority of the communtiy, and Riot, outside of his current inting strategy.
: That just proves you are talking about champs you either play direct counters to, or know nothing about. Sion's Q is almost impossible to dodge on half the champion roster, and if he has a Flash available it's almost a guaranteed kill.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000d00000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2018-11-14T05:40:46.342+0000) > > That just proves you are talking about champs you either play direct counters to, or know nothing about. Sion&#x27;s Q is almost impossible to dodge on half the champion roster, and if he has a Flash available it&#x27;s almost a guaranteed kill. Or, you know..CC him in his Q. You can dash or flash to avoid it, but if you silence, stun, taunt, or displace him it screws it up. Might have to do it early enough cause I don’t remember if it still fires or just cancels. A good number of champs that don’t have a dash have some form of hard CC to mess him up. Or just sidestep, because it’s easier to walk to the side than longways. What do you mean if he has flash it’s a guaranteed kill? He can’t flash in the middle of any of his skills, so you still see him charging.
: [img]https://i.imgur.com/Z2H8JKq.png[/img] I'm not going to find the specific build I'm citing off the top of my head, but I found one pretty close (It's easier to get a little more Magic resist than the numbers I mentioned than that last 50 or so Armor). Some things to consider: 1) This is not a fully developed Gathering Storm I can easily get 24 more AD there. 2) I actually have used and won with the Muramana. Why? It couples well with tanky builds, adds some power to that Brittle auto attack that most targets don't expect (some of my Brittle Proccing Autos are over 1400 damage when all the damage is combined), but MOST importantly...... Ornn guzzles mana...... which is why top laners usually get {{item:3068}}, so they don't have to burn Mana to farm/harass. However, I noticed very early on that: - Q does substantial damage and can be a wave clear as well as W - Why not actually just have so much mana maintenance that you don't have the mana runout problem? If you don't have that problem, you can literally never recall. In this build, Muramana is up to 97 AD as well. But...... I could also sub in a {{item:3812}} for the Muramana, if I wanted to, and get more AD than this, because of Transcendence, but I just don't like losing that proc, and the Bleed damage conversion wouldn't help Ornn as much as some others. And no. That's not my most common build, as I don't think I need to be this tanky to do my job. My builds usually are far more HP derived with {{item:3083}} if I'm vs a team I can get away from, and sometmes {{item:3078}} instead of Iceborne (Ornn lacks move speed. Whatever move speed he can get, the better) P.S. I did use a similar build on {{champion:555}} pre rework to GREAT effect. Muramana procs on his Q hooks, and he does enough auto attacks to make it worth it, and it adds more to Pyke's R threshold than a Duskblade does. Also means Pyke never has Mana problems while also giving him Duskblade like damage. On Tank Pyke I EASILY had 340 Armor, because unlike Ornn, Pyke has a huge Armor base. But alas...... Riot destroyed that idea. Now 2 Lethality items are a must have....... *stalks back into the jungle.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000600000001000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T09:25:40.188+0000) > > [img]https://i.imgur.com/Z2H8JKq.png[/img] > > I&#x27;m not going to find the specific build I&#x27;m citing off the top of my head, but I found one pretty close (It&#x27;s easier to get a little more Magic resist than the numbers I mentioned than that last 50 or so Armor). > > Some things to consider: > > 1) This is not a fully developed Gathering Storm I can easily get 24 more AD there. > > 2) I actually have used and won with the Muramana. Why? It couples well with tanky builds, adds some power to that Brittle auto attack that most targets don&#x27;t expect (some of my Brittle Proccing Autos are over 1400 damage when all the damage is combined), but MOST importantly...... Ornn guzzles mana...... which is why top laners usually get {{item:3068}}, so they don&#x27;t have to burn Mana to farm/harass. However, I noticed very early on that: > - Q does substantial damage and can be a wave clear as well as W > - Why not actually just have so much mana maintenance that you don&#x27;t have the mana runout problem? If you don&#x27;t have that problem, you can literally never recall. > > In this build, Muramana is up to 97 AD as well. > > But...... I could also sub in a {{item:3812}} for the Muramana, if I wanted to, and get more AD than this, because of Transcendence, but I just don&#x27;t like losing that proc, and the Bleed damage conversion wouldn&#x27;t help Ornn as much as some others. > > And no. That&#x27;s not my most common build, as I don&#x27;t think I need to be this tanky to do my job. My builds usually are far more HP derived with {{item:3083}} if I&#x27;m vs a team I can get away from, and sometmes {{item:3078}} instead of Iceborne (Ornn lacks move speed. Whatever move speed he can get, the better) > > P.S. I did use a similar build on {{champion:555}} pre rework to GREAT effect. Muramana procs on his Q hooks, and he does enough auto attacks to make it worth it, and it adds more to Pyke&#x27;s R threshold than a Duskblade does. Also means Pyke never has Mana problems while also giving him Duskblade like damage. On Tank Pyke I EASILY had 340 Armor, because unlike Ornn, Pyke has a huge Armor base. > > But alas...... Riot destroyed that idea. Now 2 Lethality items are a must have....... *stalks back into the jungle. So first off, that is not 360 armor, and very much lacking in health. If you sub any of those out, you’ll still miss your mark unless it’s pure AD or you are severely lacking in magic resist, or health. A tank build is not 2 tank items, cause you just die too easily to that. Now I see why you’re so much more concerned about him losing his shield, cause you don’t build tank, so you’ll die more on him. Especially since you said you don’t normall build that tanky *on a tank*. Just because you built him this way doesn’t mean it’s how he’s supposed to be built. Look at his recommended items, tank items. Look how high elo and pros build him, all tank items. Look at lolalytics, not a single non tank item makes his list. Champion.gg doesn’t list a single fighter item either, his highest win % is full tank. Meanwhile, you’re building to maximize Q damage. It’s like AP Nasus, it’s niche and in the long run and in the higher circles probably won’t do as well. This works against your fellow silvers, but what about plat? Diamond? Master? Challenger? This is sounding like...Silver cheese build. Unfortunately, you haven’t played him in so long matches can’t be reviewed, but you also suffered a <50% winrate on him, even with all his damage. Also, how are you guzzing mana to where you need Infernal, Muramana, and IBG? Usually infernal has been enough for me, if not, either IBG or Frozen Heart is enough, rarely run out at that point unless I’m spamming abilities on CD.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000600000001000100010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T18:26:22.991+0000) > > Sweet. Look me up if you ever wanna talk about tank stuff. I go by the same name on the NA lol Boards. Sweet. I will do that (i have a different discord name). Can add me in-game if you so desire as well.
Really? This little chain here with a minor friendly chat?
: Yet...... you don't cede he wasn't released after the tank update.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=00060001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T05:27:30.634+0000) > > Yet...... you don&#x27;t cede he wasn&#x27;t released after the tank update. Wow. Who is stalking whom in this post now? What are you even talking about though? he **was** released after the tank update. Ornn was released August 23, 2017. The mid year tank update was earlier 2017, and the official page about it discusses MSI 2017....which was in April. You want the official date for the tank update? May 3, 2017. How on earth was he not released after the update? He was literally the first champ released after it.
: Yours was a really good read and I agree with the overall message. We've seen this direction go wrong in the past, eg nautilus' powershift in patch 5.5 which saw him nerfed into oblivion over the course of 2 years. Was going to pop in earlier than today (will pop a response in a bit) but got G+ rejected twice, one was too long the other too short XD. So will chat more in there <3
> [{quoted}](name=KrakenKnight,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=001500010000,timestamp=2018-11-14T02:05:21.786+0000) > > Yours was a really good read and I agree with the overall message. We&#x27;ve seen this direction go wrong in the past, eg nautilus&#x27; powershift in patch 5.5 which saw him nerfed into oblivion over the course of 2 years. > Was going to pop in earlier than today (will pop a response in a bit) but got G+ rejected twice, one was too long the other too short XD. So will chat more in there &lt;3 D’aww. Thanks! That means a lot. Looking forward to the discussion over there :)
Stelyar (NA)
: What is your take on tanks having a so called "steroid" in their kits? Particularly since Ornn is set to have his removed. Supposedly, (as far as I understand) tanks are very high cc lower damagechampions capable of staying in fights for long periods of time. Fighters, are supposed to be moderate-high damagemedium cc champions also capable of staying in fights for long periods of time. The thing here is that most tanks have their durability tied to hp scaling, or a armor/mr boost, while fighters tend to have healing tied to their damage, (either ad, ap, or hp scaling, but generally heal based on hitting things {Darius Q, Illaoi Q, general lifesteal}). The issue here is that certain fighters are completely oppressive if they get a lead, because they have both high damage and high sustain. In order to kill players that are ahead, a team normally has to group up to kill them, which means fighters have more targets to heal off of (looking at you Darius, Illaoi, and Aatrox). This is further compounded by Triumph, which works really well on fighters due to their high kill pressure(but that's another tangent). In contrast, when a tank wins lane, and they get teamed up on, they only get the bonus of aoe cc, instead of extra sustain, and can easily be picked off when alone. I know there are exceptions on both sides; for tanks: Zac gets more blobs the more champions he hits; Maokai gets his passive up more often; for fighters: Xin Zhao mostly heals off single targets until he gets a Ravenous Hydra or has Ravenous Hunter (spellvamp), Fiora mostly relies on proccing vitals against one person, etc. That being said, there's also other blurs between tank and fighter, especially when it comes to build paths. Mundo is a fighter because he has no hard cc, but builds pure tank. Garen to a lesser degree, can go almost exclusively tank after 1 damage item. Skarner is really both classes, because he has a health scaling shield and the ability to drag and enemy back to his team. A lot of fighters can be built tank after just 1 or 2, which means that late game, (everyone has 4-5 completed items), a tank really relies on their team to kill the other team before they die. This inherently means they work better in a coordinated team setting. Inevitably, we have to ask if they should be given more damage to stay relevant in solo queue, even if it comes at the cost of their durability. I personally would say no, since that'll skew their identity even further. In the case of Ornn, I would've much rather have had his W dmg lowered, instead of lose the shield and gain unstoppable. His W was extremely strong, being core to his trading, because it was the best way to apply brittle, and thus do damage, as well as his best way to mitigate damage. Without the shield, it's a lot harder to stay in lane for a long time and just take use of the forging passive, which sucks because that's one of his unique traits. I get that the shield and unstoppable together are too strong (as I've played him since release), but I'd much rather have the shield, even if that means people like Camille can redirect his flame direction with her knockback. As for the post about making Ornn higher damage and CC but lower durability, I'm not as surprised so much as disappointed. Lore-wise, (and while lore shouldn't determine gameplay it does give some insight as to what Riot sees the champion as thematically), Ornn is a demigod who wrestled/brawled with the land to form the Freljord, and dug a trench to cool his home that drained the ocean by several inches, which resonate power and would fit a higher damage role. However, he also slept through a fire, which would fit a tankier theme. So I can see why they see Ornn's Identity as that, but sad that he's losing his tank steroid to fit that. So I wandered a bit more than I meant to, so in short; I don't like how he's losing durability because it removes a lot of his sustain that he needs to compete both in lane and survive in teamfights. And do you think every tank should have a tank steroid or not?
This is quite the question, a lot to digest on this. Most of this will likely be about active steroids, as passive really only affect the balancing side of things. My answer to the main question as to if all tanks should have some sort of tank steroid: I believe yes, they should. In my perspective, it adds an extra balance lever for tanks, can provide tanks with a form of skill expression (depending how it’s implemented), and makes them a bit less stat check based..which kind of ties into more balanceable but has another aspect. As a balance lever: this allows tanks to have an addition feature into which Riot can shift power. If a tank is dying too fast well enough, instead of tapping the items and making other tanks stronger, or the base stats, the steroid could be used as the balance point for more active survival. Vise versa, if a tank is too durable, they can look at the steroid and see if it’s too high if their windows are too much, or tone down overall and up the steroid if they have too much tankiness period. These aren’t the only levers, but having that extra balance point can help ease a tank to where they should be without destroying other tanks or lane matchups. Passive steroids that are always up like Poppy W or Malphite W sometimes need a bit more tweaking, since they’re always on. They can add a form of skill expression, on the active side. Most shields and active steroids aren’t spammable. There are some matchups and moments in fights where you want to hold that shield, or else you’ll miss it. Similarly, Gargoyle Stoneplate was an item designed to give tanks a window of massive tanking skill and bodyblocking, but if used at the wrong time was a large cooldown and would result in the tank taking much more damage than desired. Less stat check: stat checks aren’t inherently bad. It’s what allowed ADCs to be able to take down tanks, and can tell both groups “hey, you do/don’t have enough of [insert stat here].” The passive side is faily stat check style. The active side grants tanks a bit more freedom, in that they have windows of larger durability, followed by more vulnerable times. It becomes a bit more interactive on both sides instead of just “deal damage”. An adc doesn’t want to attack Rammus during W, so they try to peel off, QSS, etc. once his W goes down, they’re free to hit him. ...rereading, I think that last point fell flat or I lost my point, but I think it’s still an interesting discussion point. Passive steroids I’m rather hesitant on, since they’re always on. Malphite’s is a bit if an exception, since he’s designed around that and does indeed have a window in that because of how his W passive increases when his passive is up, giving him a more clear moment of super tank vs vulnerability, as well as it only deals with armor, and not MR. I hope that answers your core question. Maybe when I have more time I can respond to the other portions...trying to not spam my Ornn rant as much, as sad as I am.
: Then relegate them to jungle and support. Get them out of toplane.
> [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=000800020000,timestamp=2018-11-14T00:04:25.278+0000) > > Then relegate them to jungle and support. > Get them out of toplane. What’s wrong with them in toplane? Ornn on release was just fine in toplane, little to no complaints. Maokai does ok up there without destroying. Malphite as well, especially now with Conquerer. Why should *all* tanks be jungle or support?
: All it does is destroying bruisers.
> [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=001800000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T00:04:57.031+0000) > > All it does is destroying bruisers. So, it’s to give tanks some form of damage in order to trade and farm without having to buy more damage. You know exactly what damage they’ll do to you, and they either can’t increase it or it takes them away from tank items to increase it (e.g. RoA on Galio or Maokai). Tank vs tank ended up as slap fights because of resists but the higher base damages allowed them to hurt everything. With a %health skill, they can at least have lower bases and mainly trade with one skill at a set damage percentage. Would you rather they take it and just buff all their bases, a la current changes for Sejuani? You mean the fighters that refuse to build against it? For tanks, it’s all magic damage or physical damage, there are items that fighters can build against it and still be strong. Physical: simple armor in general before rushing a trinity. Magic damage: build a hexdrinker. Bam, AD, MR to reduce the damage, and a bonus shield. If you need sterak’s later, sell hexdrinker. Counterbuilding is a solution.
jadelink (OCE)
: The problem is that for a tank to jungle, they HAVE to have good early damage, or they fall so far behind in clear that the meta duelist junglers repeatedly invade and kill them. Likewise in top lane, defences are now so weak to massive buffs to damage in general and true damage in particular that taking a tank top is very very risky indeed, and you're actually MORE likely to get the enemy fiora to be 4-0 at ten minutes by picking a tank rather than picking ranged poke or a mobile bruiser. Having tanks as the dubious high risk option isn't appealing to those who play them. This has left us with just support tanks, who are now so poor since changes to gold from towers and items that they only pretend to be tanky, unless they're Alistar or to a lesser degree Braum or Kench (in which case they have a small window of tankyness). Vanguards dont need damage to do their teamfight job, they need it to not feed in top lane vs bruisers and to clear the jungle with.
> [{quoted}](name=jadelink,realm=OCE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FmiRa9A5,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T00:43:31.232+0000) > > The problem is that for a tank to jungle, they HAVE to have good early damage, or they fall so far behind in clear that the meta duelist junglers repeatedly invade and kill them. > > Likewise in top lane, defences are now so weak to massive buffs to damage in general and true damage in particular that taking a tank top is very very risky indeed, and you&#x27;re actually MORE likely to get the enemy fiora to be 4-0 at ten minutes by picking a tank rather than picking ranged poke or a mobile bruiser. Having tanks as the dubious high risk option isn&#x27;t appealing to those who play them. > > This has left us with just support tanks, who are now so poor since changes to gold from towers and items that they only pretend to be tanky, unless they&#x27;re Alistar or to a lesser degree Braum or Kench (in which case they have a small window of tankyness). > > Vanguards dont need damage to do their teamfight job, they need it to not feed in top lane vs bruisers and to clear the jungle with. Non support tanks need damage, this much is true. But the level is what people differ on. The degrees that Riot is buffing tank damage is too high for most. Nautilus used to be a jungler just fine, and Maokai does pretty well as well. They don’t need +200 extra damage on a max rank ability like Sejuani is getting, or more %max health damage while taking away a shield like Ornn. Majority of us agree that tanks to be not supports need some damage, just not this much and at the cost of their actual tank aspects.
: How will Ornn and Sejuani be overloaded with damage? Becauase of Runes or their kit changes?
> [{quoted}](name=Hethalean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vm5pxVT2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-12T18:18:49.527+0000) > > How will Ornn and Sejuani be overloaded with damage? Becauase of Runes or their kit changes? Ornn is regaining Unstoppable his Brittle proc damage is buffed, but he’s losing his shield. His E got a better knockup, and R now has a funky “slow on first part scales with distance traveled” and the second part has reduced knockup for target’s after the first. Q also got reduced mana costs, so more spammable. Squad5 suspects Q max or E max best since W is basically just a 1 point skill now (no reducing CD per rank, no shield, etc, i think only breath damage goes up, so it might still get maxed early). His passive also now auto upgrades 2 items for him for free at 11, and level 12-15 he can upgrade one item for an ally per level (each can only have one item). Passive stat increases. Sejuani is getting some passive stat increases as well, is losing her slow on W, her E stun has a reduced duration by .2 seconds each rank, but is gaining damage to both W and E, E being the biggest at +200 at rank 5.
: I wholeheartedly agree and have a gp+ post that should be up by the end of the week addressing tanks as a class, and how to fix them. The biggest issues outside of the champs themselves imo are runes, pro play and itemization
> [{quoted}](name=KrakenKnight,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-11-13T21:43:18.406+0000) > > I wholeheartedly agree and have a gp+ post that should be up by the end of the week addressing tanks as a class, and how to fix them. > > The biggest issues outside of the champs themselves imo are runes, pro play and itemization Amusing, I recently had another tank related one approved, although mainly trying to stir discussion around Riot’s reasons for their balance choices and less around how to balance. This whole situation sparked massive discussions around tanks and what’s healthiest. Love it. Looking forward to readingg your post.
FridgeD (EUW)
: i think riot never understood this class at all. even in times where champions have a clear role with strengths and weaknesses, tanks are lame. they are a.) better fighters with stupidly high base stat and dmg (!!!), and preventing players from choosing any other form of melee champ. or b.) absolutly unplayable garbage IMO there are golden rules to LoL. you cant have have high dmg, tankiness and cc (without items) at the same time. tanks break this rule. the reworked sej on release was able to cc your champ for ever (there is way too much cc in the game anyways), burst 50-60% hp of a squichy, while taking 0 dmg thanks to the passive. how the fck is this fair? there is no answer to this. i cant control my character for like 3-4 seconds, while eating stupid amounts of dmg and my team cant even kill this monster of a design fail. remember the times when the only answer to retard grasp mao top was darius? fcking darius! i know it will hurt some tank players feelings, but having a champ that is way stronger in lane AND way more useful in teamfights is not a sign of good champion design. at all. other walking stat monsters with too much of everything: every "support" tank ever. when support ali with no items kills you 1vs1. great design. so how to fix this class? 1. lower their dmg against champions. by a lot. and no more % hp! (ornn on the pbe, WTFF) 2. increase their dmg vs minions (a bit) and vs monsters (by a lot) . give them better jungling and objective control. 3. make their cc last way shorter, but make it more repeatable. this would make it more fair to play vs a tank, but it would still give them threat in teamfights. example: mao w root duration down to 1 sec on highest rank, but cd (with 40% cdr) down to 4 or 5 secs. 4. give them more base tankiness and increase their scaling with items. your sion should not able to kill their irelia, but she should not destroy him instantly either. i know this will lead to more "wet-noodle-fights" in proplay. but who cares? this year was good for proplay (worlds were nice), but next season we should get a "good season". 5. this will take the most effort: give every tank its own role. when seju was reworked and shown as the great leader, that leads her team into battle, i expected more than just a "im a dumb cc machine and i cc you even faster with more melees around me". where is the armor buff for melee allies?! where is the ms boost for ranged allies towards frozen (stunned) enemies?! mao hates mages, right? make rooted targets deal 25% less magic dmg! 6. kick out mechanics that are extremely toxic and antifun. rammus punishes you for autoattacking! you should be rewarded for autoattacking, not killed by rammus w+thornnail. this will make tanks less desired in proplay, but way more fun to play and play against in normals and yolo q. 1. sorry for my horrible english 2. im guilty myself, abusing rammus vs poor silver adcs in normals (highest dmg in game as "tank" jungler, lol)
%health damage on tanks can be useful...such as tank vs tank matchups. It also adds more consistency to farming if you lower their bases elsewhere, and doesn’t require them to build more damage to farm. But too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.
: Their problem imo is for some reason people think tanks need to be able to scrap against bruisers and clear the jungle easily. If people (and riot) could just accept the identity of tanks as low damage hard-to-kill utility champs (that end up doing decent enough damage just because they take longer to kill) I think it would solve most problems. But then people say "not fair I can't take a tank into a jungle" and "not fair a champ that is built to kill tanks outdamages me in lane" so tanks get damage buffs and either are broken or get their utility and survivability nerfed to compensate and become bruisers.
> [{quoted}](name=skumnasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uFVhAnww,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-13T18:44:46.652+0000) > > Their problem imo is for some reason people think tanks need to be able to scrap against bruisers and clear the jungle easily. If people (and riot) could just accept the identity of tanks as low damage hard-to-kill utility champs (that end up doing decent enough damage just because they take longer to kill) I think it would solve most problems. But then people say &quot;not fair I can&#x27;t take a tank into a jungle&quot; and &quot;not fair a champ that is built to kill tanks outdamages me in lane&quot; so tanks get damage buffs and either are broken or get their utility and survivability nerfed to compensate and become bruisers. Tanks do ultimately need some damage in order to survive their respective areas, or they end up relegated to support only. There are ways to tune that might give them less damage in trades, but if you don’t want tanks to only support, they’ll need some damage and clear. I think many can accept having less damage, so long as they aren’t forced to support to get their gold.
Ralanr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=00060000000100010001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T18:16:14.269+0000) > > That I do. Sweet. Look me up if you ever wanna talk about tank stuff. I go by the same name on the NA lol Boards.
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000600000001000100010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T18:26:22.991+0000) > > Sweet. Look me up if you ever wanna talk about tank stuff. I go by the same name on the NA lol Boards. Sweet. I will do that (i have a different discord name). Can add me in-game if you so desire as well.
Keyru (NA)
: Boards Moderation Discord Verification
Ralanr (NA)
: Thank you for saving me the trouble. You have a discord?
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=0006000000010001000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-11-13T13:57:39.363+0000) > > Thank you for saving me the trouble. > > You have a discord? That I do.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00020002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T16:52:26.340+0000) > > Have you ever played a tank before? It’s more than just “faceroll”. Yes I did play tank, actually mained sion. I mained Leona. I mained full tank Jarvan back in season 4. And yes it might not just be faceroll. I would rather call it, aimed faceroll. Of course you cant just throw your whole combo in fountain right after respawn that doesnt make much sense. You gotta find you target and then faceroll. > I never said adc mains and mage mains don’t complain about tanks period. I said they don’t **beyond their damage**. And that is exactly the issue of 90% of tank roster. There is a reason why maokai isnt picked and neither is shen. But cho gath Sion, Malphite can and will oneshot carries. So when ADC mains complain about tanks that deal damage, THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT TANKS. > And what tanks are “oneshotting” adcs? Malphite? Probably AP build cause of his ult ratio. Amumu? Same deal. What tank can oneshot? CHO GATH SION POPPY MALPHITE FULL FUCKING TANIK MALPHITE CAN ONESHOT CARRIES, AMUMU, SEJUANI. Titanic hydra doesnt exist in your universe? Malphite doesnt deal 1k damage on full combo ? Rammus doesnt have higher dps with thornmail than adc on 3 items? What game are you playing? > > I see. Urgot, Jayce (half fighter), ARE RANGED CHAMPS? You dont see issue there? Maybe they were picked for their capability of actually farming against tanks? Or maybe because they both poses anti tank tools . OR MAYBE BECAUSE THEY IGNORE TANKS JUST LIKE TANKS IGNORE FIGHTERS. >Irelia, Aatrox, WERE PICKED ON MID. >Xin Zhao, Nocturne, ARE JUNGLERS. And jungle, a news flash i know, IS A ROLE WHERE FIGHTING YOUR ENEMY IS A CHOICE. >and the like in LCS don’t count cause they don’t fit your argument.. > > The other thing I see? You don’t want to discuss. You want to rant and have people think you’re right. I am right there is DATA on the internet. FACTUAL DATA. TOP LANE PICK RATES PLUMETTING EVERY TANK META, FIGHTER ROSTER PICK RATES DISAPPEARING. SAME ADCIES PICKED EVERY TANK META. ITS ALL DOCUMENTED. >Clearly, people disagree with you in this thread, and I’ve seen elsewhere as well. Of course tank mains in tank echo chamber disagree with me. Its hard to see the truth when you are bullshitting your entire argument. >You don’t want to discuss at all, just yell your fighter/anti-tank bias, so I’m out. Bye. I didnt want to discuss at all. All I wanted is to point out your lies. There is evidence on the internet. All you have to do is to read for once. Facts arent discussion.
Fun fact: facts are a part of discussion. A fact in itself is not the end of a discussion, but discussions happen as a result of facts, why those are the way they are, what can be derived from said facts. You want to talk about the facts? Sion and split pushing: you can’t claim all tanks are better splitpushers when it is currently just the inting Sion strategy. Most tanks don’t actually build damage items, and so just slap a tower outside 1 demolish proc. Jax still takes towers better than every tank except Sion right now. Sion’s winrate at the timestamp: Sion’s current strategy is literally throwing himself at towers, A strategy that only he can pull off cause of his passive. Objectives win games. Tanks and damage: yes, certain tanks deal too much damage. Complaining about a tanks damage =\= “game would be more fun if tanks are just unviable for deleted”. I never see a tank “one shot” a carry. The only time is usually full AP Malphite **which is not a tank build**, and he’s currently in line for a full rework. He takes an extraordinary amount of armor or AP for Malphite to do a complete oneshot, and usually at 1k carries have more health than that. Note, Malphite one has 1 hard CC and it’s tied to his ultimate. Rammus out dps’ing an adc? I mean, he is an anti adc champ, that’s his niche. He doesn’t have as much else. Ornn’s damage had insane increases that mains of his stood against. Not our fault. We didn’t want the damage. How about the fact that Season 5’s tank meta was focused around a then broken Cinderhulk and the champs that abused it best? Or that being a season when fighters themselves were weak and didn’t even have very many of their own items at that point? How about that the majority of tanks do *not* build Titanic Hydra, since a good number either need to build full tank item or don’t have any AD scalings or auto attack enough to make it worth while? You posted facts, thinking they are end all. But things go deeper than that. You need the core reasons for said facts, why they appear the way they do, especially when the data constantly shifts. You call this a tank echo chamber, yet here you came anyway, into a thread made by a fighter main, talking about tank damage with various tanks agreeing in regards to our own damage. Adieu.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=000200020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T14:21:54.450+0000) > > This game would be a killfest/slugfest with neither tanks nor assassins. No real stragety, just whichever champ has the best damage wins. Okay lets sum up strategy in tank meta, farm untill teamfights happen, roll your face on keyboard. DONE. Fighter meta has divers that utilize vision advantages and flank on enemy carries. Duelists that splitpush and rely on their capability to take out 1+ enemy consistently so your team can do objectives. Bruisers that can turn teamfight around with 1 lucky hit. Tanks are deathballing. THE END. > Wow, nice ad hominem. Idk any adc main that complains about tanks beyond what damage some of them put out. Some? Out of my head two tanks that come to my head that cant oneshot carries are shen and Maokai. Rest of the tank roster can burst even oneshot carries with 0 counterplay unless you have flash. You dont know any adc mains complaining about tanks? Cool, I guess Tyler 1 does not exist. I guess PhyLol does not exist, I guess Gosu doesnt exist then. >Mage mains mainly complain about MR. Mage mains complain about MR? Really? With this {{item:3135}} in the game? Seriously? I thought it was more about the fact that once tank touches them they are dead. >Like you said, fun is relative. *you* may hate tanks and say they aren’t fun, but you are only you. You know what is funny about people like me? They quit lol after last tank meta. Why did I stay? I swapped lanes. >Even other fighter mains try to balance tanks, Yes and I havent seen anyone ever saying, damn this class could really use some buffs. >mages and adcs know how valuable they can be in teamfights. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FIGHTER BUT, SIGNIFICANTLY MORE USEFUL FOR SOME REASON. Seriously what is difference between diver and Nautilus? One will die when he fucks up. But since nautilus can press his point click ult from distance higher than auto attack range than most Adcies, it is kinda impossible to fuck it up. What is the difference between Bruiser and Cho gath? Bruiser has to buy one of the most expensive core builds in the game to even have a chance to do something in teamfight. Cho gath has to press button few times in laning phase and get 1 lucky rupture. What is the difference between duelist and all tanks? DUELISTS CANNOT TEAMFIGHT. WHY ARE TANKS BEATING DUELISTS THEN? Ignore existence of conqueror for a moment and seriously think what is jax going to do in laning phase and post laning phase against malphite? JacK SHIT. And he is going to loose teamfights as well. >You? You just want two classes eliminated. Whoa how did you find out? What gave me away? > Ironic how you talk about how Riot made changes after tank meta made LCS games “boring” (can’t be worse than tower trade meta), then say the majority should decide things, because after that they shortened games and a majority on the boards hate that change and still ask for games to be extended. To do that, damage champs can’t be the only thing. What? You think tanks extend games? Really? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sion/euw/top/diamond Fucking weird that his win rate is highest by 15 minute mark. Almost like tanks end the game before you can even farm up and do anything. But I am sure thats just one time anomaly right? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/malphite/euw/top/diamond Wow same trend. What the? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ornn/euw/top/diamond ONE OF THE BEST LATEGAME SCALLING TANKS STILL WINS OVER 70% GAMES BY 20 MINUTE MARK. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/euw/top/diamond WEIRD ISNT IT. > Hilarious. You say tanks can’t function in pvp, that people would just ignore them. This is why they’re given CC and utility in teamfights, Nothing is more annoying than CC. Especially when that CC is in your face entire laning phase and you cant do anything about it because these {{item:3111}} are a fucking joke. But hey dont take my word for it, ask players that quit in season 5. >because you can’t kill if you can’t do anything, and if you don’t kill that tank, they’ll make sure you can’t kill their team. Yeah, that should be the main point of tanks. SO WHY DO THEY ONESHOT? WHY DO THEY WIN 1v1s? WHY DO THEY PUSH FIGHTERS OUT OF THE LANE? EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. It couldnt be that tanks that only protect are INHERENTLY FUCKING UNPOPULAR. Nononono I am sure that 90% of players in this game actually do not enjoy carrying their own games. They want to be the shield and protector. YEAH RIGHT BUDDY. > They also find their best balance in the pros and coordinated play, alongside fighters, assassins, adcs, mages, and supports. Without tanks, you have less outright engage power. Without Warden tanks, you have less peel and disengage. After all, this past worlds had fighters with high priority, and tanks could still fit in their proper place. Fighters had high priorty? Really? Which ones? {{champion:6}} this one? A ranged "fighter" with built in anti tank tools? Or this one? {{champion:112}} a ranged mage that doesnt have to trade with tanks? Or perhaps aaaah, uuuh. Who? Sion? Tank. Ornn? Tank. Poppy? Tank. Galio? tank. 4-6 tanks per single lcs game ENTIRE LCS. Fighters had priority? Oh maybe you are talking about Irelia? Irelia mid that is. Do you know why Irelia got picked mid? Because she wouldnt do shit on top. Or perhaps aatrox? Another semi ranged fighter with innate sustain and ways to be useful even when outfarmed. Because he fundamentally functions like a tank. > I never said you played tanks. But who were your supports in those matches? Rakkans, Jannas, Lulus. Welcome to EUNE diamond 3 where egirls realized they dont have to try. I havent seen leona since I left gold elo. I havent seen alistar until he was picked on LCS. Tanks are not needed nor they make game more engaging. They only frustrate top laners. >Or junglers (i highly doubt it was only those 4)? Tanks aren’t just toplaners. Those 4 were precisely all junglers I have met over 60 games I have played in plat 3+ to diamond 3 MMR. Graves every single game and other three about equally. Noone wants to play tanks. >Remove tanks and you lose the Braum and Leona supports, or Taric. I honestly dont give a shit. Loosing braum is only bonus because what this game really needed after Yasuo wall was walking wall. > Every class is needed in this game for a purpose. Mages and assassins kill the carries and each other, Assassins kill mages. >tanks and supports protect the carries, Nice meme there dude, thats why most popular tanks have high damage and low utility. >tanks engage teamfights the best and provide lockdown, Cool but >adcs and fighters typically kill tanks They dont. They simply dont. If they did, there wouldnt be an issue, but they dont. Conqueror is a bandaid for top lane. Without the band aid, tank meta would go on since season 5. >and objectives with sustained damage. And funniest part is that tanks posses not only defensive damage scalling, making them somewhat efficient at taking down jungle objectives such as dragons, THIS RUNE http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Demolish MAKES THIS CHAMPION {{champion:14}} BETTER AT SPLITPUSHING THAN THIS CHAMPION{{champion:24}} . TANKS ARE BETTER FIGHTERS. PERIOD.
Have you ever played a tank before? It’s more than just “faceroll”. I never said adc mains and mage mains don’t complain about tanks period. I said they don’t **beyond their damage**. And what tanks are “oneshotting” adcs? Malphite? Probably AP build cause of his ult ratio. Amumu? Same deal. What tank can oneshot? I see. Urgot, Jayce (half fighter), Irelia, Aatrox, Xin Zhao, Nocturne, and the like in LCS don’t count cause they don’t fit your argument.. The other thing I see? You don’t want to discuss. You want to rant and have people think you’re right. Clearly, people disagree with you in this thread, and I’ve seen elsewhere as well. You don’t want to discuss at all, just yell your fighter/anti-tank bias, so I’m out. Bye.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=0002000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T10:41:32.797+0000) > > So, we should just delete the entire tank class and then you can have a slugfest in toplane? Congrats that’s what they’re doing. This game would be so much more fun without tanks and assassins. Dont believe me? Ask any adc main any top main and mage main what they think about tank metas. Yeah fun is relative, but as long as democracy exists voice of majority should matter. People like fun. Im sorry you dont like fun. But thats how it is. Riot saw what tank metas did, how boring LCS games were, how many people started quitting the game. > Sure, let’s make one of the most team-reliant, team focused classes in a team oriented game completely unusuable, effectively deleting them, despite what the mains of that class say. That’ll make things so balanced, all that damage and damage. Tank mains and support mains have one thing in common. They talk in echo chambers. Its them against the world. Thats why they dont see other side of the argument. Thats why you do not understand the fundamental issues with your class. Tanks in PVP games CANNOT FUNCTION. Tank is PVE class that relies on STUPIDITY OF AI to focus you to be useful. However unlucky for you players tend to have brains. Not always, but the higher you go the more braincells on average player. How do you make TANK, A CLASS RELIANT ON DRAGGING AGGRO useful against functional human beings? By buffing their defense? Really? Youll get ignored just like tanks were ignored in season 3. Thats why they keep buffing damage over and over again. Thats why tanks get overloaded kits. Because they need it to be useful. Which in turn creates endless loop of buff cycles. Why do you think they even released conqueror? BECAUSE TANKS COULD DUEL DUELISTS. Why could they duel duelists? BECAUSE IF THEY COULDNT NOONE WOULD PLAY THEM. But if they can duel duelists why would you pick duelists? So they released conqueror. And right now they are buffing tanks again. Same cycle again. Simply because your class is fundamentally disfunctional. > Fun fact, it’s that tank on your team that allows you as a fighter to do what you need to do when it comes time to teamfights. Otherwise, *you’d* be the first one focused, taking all their CDs, and killed. Fun fact, I main top and I got diamond 3 as Camille main on EUTHRASH. Unless Camille is tank, then I didnt need tanks to let me do what I wanted to do. Or perhaps Kha zix was a tank? Or maybe Graves was a tank? HMMMMM? Tanks arent needed in mobas. They never were.
> [{quoted}](name=Pin me daddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00020002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T12:01:57.077+0000) > > This game would be so much more fun without tanks and assassins. Dont believe me? Ask any adc main any top main and mage main what they think about tank metas. Yeah fun is relative, but as long as democracy exists voice of majority should matter. People like fun. Im sorry you dont like fun. But thats how it is. Riot saw what tank metas did, how boring LCS games were, how many people started quitting the game. This game would be a killfest/slugfest with neither tanks nor assassins. No real stragety, just whichever champ has the best damage wins. Wow, nice ad hominem. Idk any adc main that complains about tanks beyond what damage some of them put out. Mage mains mainly complain about MR. Like you said, fun is relative. *you* may hate tanks and say they aren’t fun, but you are only you. Even other fighter mains try to balance tanks, mages and adcs know how valuable they can be in teamfights. You? You just want two classes eliminated. Ironic how you talk about how Riot made changes after tank meta made LCS games “boring” (can’t be worse than tower trade meta), then say the majority should decide things, because after that they shortened games and a majority on the boards hate that change and still ask for games to be extended. To do that, damage champs can’t be the only thing. > Tank mains and support mains have one thing in common. They talk in echo chambers. Its them against the world. Thats why they dont see other side of the argument. Thats why you do not understand the fundamental issues with your class. Tanks in PVP games CANNOT FUNCTION. Tank is PVE class that relies on STUPIDITY OF AI to focus you to be useful. However unlucky for you players tend to have brains. Not always, but the higher you go the more braincells on average player. How do you make TANK, A CLASS RELIANT ON DRAGGING AGGRO useful against functional human beings? By buffing their defense? Really? Youll get ignored just like tanks were ignored in season 3. Thats why they keep buffing damage over and over again. Thats why tanks get overloaded kits. Because they need it to be useful. Which in turn creates endless loop of buff cycles. Why do you think they even released conqueror? BECAUSE TANKS COULD DUEL DUELISTS. Why could they duel duelists? BECAUSE IF THEY COULDNT NOONE WOULD PLAY THEM. But if they can duel duelists why would you pick duelists? So they released conqueror. And right now they are buffing tanks again. Same cycle again. Simply because your class is fundamentally disfunctional. Hilarious. You say tanks can’t function in pvp, that people would just ignore them. This is why they’re given CC and utility in teamfights, because you can’t kill if you can’t do anything, and if you don’t kill that tank, they’ll make sure you can’t kill their team. They also find their best balance in the pros and coordinated play, alongside fighters, assassins, adcs, mages, and supports. Without tanks, you have less outright engage power. Without Warden tanks, you have less peel and disengage. After all, this past worlds had fighters with high priority, and tanks could still fit in their proper place. > Fun fact, I main top and I got diamond 3 as Camille main on EUTHRASH. Unless Camille is tank, then I didnt need tanks to let me do what I wanted to do. Or perhaps Kha zix was a tank? Or maybe Graves was a tank? HMMMMM? Tanks arent needed in mobas. They never were. I never said you played tanks. But who were your supports in those matches? Or junglers (i highly doubt it was only those 4)? Tanks aren’t just toplaners. Remove tanks and you lose the Braum and Leona supports, or Taric. Every class is needed in this game for a purpose. Mages and assassins kill the carries and each other, tanks and supports protect the carries, tanks engage teamfights the best and provide lockdown, adcs and fighters typically kill tanks and objectives with sustained damage.
: Obviously. Unless you of course enjoy stale meta with same 4 adcies, same 4 tanks,same 3 supports, same game format and sacrificing entire fighter roster again. Hello season 5 and lowest amount of top lane mains.
> [{quoted}](name=Pin me daddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=000200020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T23:18:02.597+0000) > > Obviously. Unless you of course enjoy stale meta with same 4 adcies, same 4 tanks,same 3 supports, same game format and sacrificing entire fighter roster again. Hello season 5 and lowest amount of top lane mains. So, we should just delete the entire tank class and then you can have a slugfest in toplane? Congrats that’s what they’re doing. Sure, let’s make one of the most team-reliant, team focused classes in a team oriented game completely unusuable, effectively deleting them, despite what the mains of that class say. That’ll make things so balanced, all that damage and damage. Fun fact, it’s that tank on your team that allows you as a fighter to do what you need to do when it comes time to teamfights. Otherwise, *you’d* be the first one focused, taking all their CDs, and killed.
: Source that Riot labeled him as a Vanguard tank? From what I recall, they didn't label him at all. They just let him loose on the rift with no solid core advice on role/build/lane/anything. He just SETTLED INTO Top and building Tank, after people realized all his scaling but Q sucks. But..... I know other champs that have had shitty scaling who are fighters......juggernauts, etc.... some of whom scale off HP....
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=00060000000100010001,timestamp=2018-11-13T02:51:54.786+0000) > > Source that Riot labeled him as a Vanguard tank? > > From what I recall, they didn&#x27;t label him at all. They just let him loose on the rift with no solid core advice on role/build/lane/anything. He just SETTLED INTO Top and building Tank, after people realized all his scaling but Q sucks. > > But..... I know other champs that have had shitty scaling who are fighters......juggernauts, etc.... some of whom scale off HP.... Quoting the post Ralanr referenced because it’s easier that way: > Ok. From the champion reveal page: > > > Ornn is a leader on the battlefield. He initiates fights on his terms with Call of the Forge God, then charges in, bellowing and tearing apart his foes with titanic force. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/champion-reveal-ornn > > Description of a Vanguard. Not enough? From the “Forging Ornn” article: > > > Since Ornn is League’s first blacksmith champion, there were a lot of ways to approach his gameplay design. In other games, blacksmiths are often NPCs who only exist to supply the main character on their journey. Ornn was never intended to be a part of the supporting cast, in either meaning of the word. “We didn’t want to make a champion who focused on making weapons that buffed their allies,” says game designer Blake “Squad5” Smith. “Ornn was meant to be a powerful vanguard who could hold his own.” https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/08/champ-insights-ornn/ > > Or...how about from when he was teased in the Champion Roadmap in July 2017: > > > The same can be said for the Tank update; as we honed in on what we felt worked for the Vanguard class, we saw a great opportunity to build a new Vanguard from scratch. > > > >One of the key traits of a Vanguard is that they can choose when and where to start a fight. With that in mind, we wanted to make a new playmaking Vanguard that charged headfirst into tough situations and made the enemy team fight on their terms. We also really wanted to make a very self-reliant champion; expect to see a unique new passive that helps them build more than just character. > > > > Look out for the newest Vanguard, who’ll be heating up one of the coldest regions in Runeterra. Next, let’s look at the updates we have in flight. https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/07/champion-roadmap-july-2017/ >
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Iota Theta

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