: Assassin Roster Update - Rengar Direction
In regards to the Ferocity changes, they seem pretty...odd, considering their purpose within Rengar's initial iteration (ie. being a "preparation" stat that couldn't be facerolled from 0 in a fight). It had the implications of creating an assassin that could perform well when allowed to prepare for a fight, but who could also be caught with their pants down. An iteration of Ferocity where the management is all in-fight would mean that Rengar himself would have to be designed around that flexibility, meaning there's less incentive to hunt down the hunter (and consequently, fewer windows of weakness, which seems symptomatic of assassins lately). I'm not saying that current Ferocity is in the best place, but if there are any flaws there, I'd say they lie in how Rengar is allowed to prepare rather than the fact that he is able to prepare whatsoever. If it were less about what Rengar has done in the 30 seconds prior to an engagement and [more about what he's done in the 6 seconds prior](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/03/champion-redesign-rengar-pridestalker.html?q=rengar), such a system might still be in good health. In regards to the "Rengar feels bad about a button that just gives him tank stats," I think a two-birds one-stone solution to this and "Rengar blows you up because he uses 3 damage-dealing abilities on you immediately" would actually be in the other direction - ie. removing the damage from his W (and potentially his E) altogether and having it be a dedicated defensive button. It would make Rengar's ability to take out vulnerable and low-health targets less about him dealing a whole bunch of damage to you before you can react and more about him being able to have an overall advantage against you that decays over the first few seconds of the fight, which would also discourage him from jumping on people in the middle of their teams (which I'd say current W actively encourages).
: Assassin Roster Update -- Talon Direction
As far as point 3 goes (since I agree this is a pretty big problem), one possible solution to both keep the iconic "blades everywhere" AoE and emphasize the single-target focus that comes with the territory of assassination could be to actually [use his AoE to limit his target choice](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/03/champion-redesign-talon-blades-shadow.html?q=talon). Right now, his AoEs mostly act as an "I can make anyone in this cone/circle very sad" mechanic, but if it were more of a case of "I only want to catch one person in this huge area," then Talon would naturally be more eager about finding and dispatching isolated targets, since jumping into the middle of a team and exploding their carry would no longer be much of an option. Skill with Talon in this case wouldn't simply be in picking winning fights, but careful and precise positioning as well (which can be more deliberately thwarted by his opponent). Adding a preparation element (such as charges that empower Rake, or having his Q's power ramp up during a preparation period before use, baked-in out of combat mobility) could also help solidify his role as an assassin who relies on roaming, as opposed to a good assassin who just also happens to benefit from roaming.
: Guys, you are killing me (metaphorically, no worries). I can't possibly answer all of this. It already hurts me if I have to ignore 2/3rds of your post, just to keep it condensed and on spot, and now you provide me with 8 different answers and text that I need more than 15 seconds to just _SCROLL_ through. I will try to get some points across tomorrow, in the end I only have got 4 hours of sleep and 12hours of work behind me. I enjoy your passion for game design and your attempts of being as understandable as possible, but this discussion is getting out of hand. Please try to be more precise. I am already ignoring my other work on Karma and stretching the term _"sparing my finger's joints, so they can recover"_ very thinly, just to keep answering on a very basic level. I like this discussion, but I'd rather have a little less of it at once. I hope you understand.
Hey dude - don't worry about feeling like you need to reply to every point we make, or even like you need to reply right away! You've already given a lot to this thread, and your work is just as important, so I'd hate to take you away from it. With your health and interests in mind, I think I'd suggest just giving this thread a break for a while. Get some good rest, take care of what you need to, and know we'd love to have you back when the time comes. (Don't forget to come back though!)
: That said, that is probably what an undead warrior should be able to do. And if that seems boring to you, that's fine! Just means that you wouldn't really like playing as an undead warrior with an undead warrior playstyle, because, although giving him a magical shield would make him more interesting for some, it will probably only feel less satisfying for the people that actually want to really play _like_ an undead warrior. For the record, I'm a big fan of LOTR and Treebeard, plus I've always been drawn to ''magic + nature'' in terms of videogames (just as necromancy is something I've always found cool, which is why at the time when ItemsGuy didn't know what to do with Yorick yet, I came up with 90%/the general gist of his abilities in his Redesign, ItemsGuy just added the numbers and some mechanical things that were necessary in terms of counterplay), and I remember how I was very dissappointed to find out how Maokai turned out to play like. Sure, I could see I was playing _as_ (visual) an angry, magical tree, but not really _like_ (gameplay) one. **ItemsGuy: This is why I'm so adamant about her counter-aggression being focused on only one target at a time, rather than blanketed across her entire team.** Defined strengths and weaknesses! :) ** SilverSquid: And Heimer's CC does damage too? You also just CC'ed someone. You perfectly used all of it, while Karma could use half of one ability. And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal? Isn't this the same thing as forcing Heimer to CC, but his damage would've been more useful?** Just wanted to say this as well, but the damage might as well not be on there for Heimerdinger. Seriously, it's really just ''the CC option'' of his ult, not ''the CC option with some damage''. Sure it is _some_ damage, but the damage is little enough to objectively conclude that it's there for the CC only, really. Don't even think it'd hurt him that much if they removed the damage entirely. **ItemsGuy: Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. Its highest point for the player just ends up being less satisfying, while their opponent's maximum satisfaction is diminished to "Well, I kind of forced her to use a slightly less effect-efficient version of one of her mantras..." Compare that to dodging an Ashe arrow or forcing Tahm to pop his E and waddle out of the fight. Ashe gets to feel really good about that 3 second stun while Tahm can stick around forever if he manages his engagements carefully, while their opponents get to feel cool about temporarily taking a tool away from their opponent through skilled play.** Defined strengths and weaknesses with examples of actual gameplay! SilverSquid, not sure if you're familiar with HOTS, but allow me to use some examples: Take Sgt Hammer: She will wreck your balls if she's stationary. If she settles down and you let her stand still, you're fucked. If you force her to move she's not gonna be entirely useless, but you cut down her power A LOT. Her goal: stand still, shoot from distance. Take Abathur from HOTS: He will push like a mad man the further he is on the map/the closer he is to the enemy base. If you search and hunt for him and force him back to base, you cut his power a lot. He's not entirely useless when standing in base, but he does push less effectively. Goal: Move as far into the map to push harder. Take Rexxar from Heroes of the Storm: As long as Mischa is up he's pretty powerful, kill the bear and you cut his power A LOT. He's not entirely useless without Mischa, as he's still able to cast his Q and auto attack, but still, killing his pet companion is the most effective way of dealing with him. Goal: Screwing you over with bear/Mischa and keeping her alive. These are very unified playstyles: Sgt Hammer wants to wreck your balls while standing still, from distance. Abathur wants to push as hard and as far into the map as he can, Rexxar wants to screw you over with his bear. The counterplay to these designs are very clear, the moment you prevent them from reaching their ideal situation is where you cut their power, although, you do not make them entirely useless. Sgt. Hammer can still do stuff even if she's not stationary, Abathur can safely sit in base and Rexxar can still auto attack and Q when Mischa's down. You cut their power A LOT by making sure they don't reach their goal/perfect scenario. [Redesign Yorick](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html) wants to overrun you with a herd of zombies, you cut his power by dealing with his zombies, although, he's never entirely useless: even without tombes he can spawn at least one zombie next to him with every cast of Gravecall. [Redesign Fiora](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-fiora-grand-duelist.html) wants to force duels, which is to say; 1 vs 1 fights. Force her into teamfights and you cut her power, however, she'll still be able to do something; disarming an enemy (preferably someone whose sets out to kill your carries), reducing the damage they deal for a few seconds sounds good, aye? This all has to do with creating a character with one concrete goal in mind, this allows champions to really shine at something, because they are less good at something else. And those are trade-offs and how they should be! Which is probably what ItemsGuy is trying to say here about Karma and her previously being able to deal with multiple people at the same time. It's just a bit too much! **SilverSquid: Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot.** Brings me to my next point: Irelia, Yasuo, Lee Sin, these are all designs that are inherently broken. Tweak the numbers all you want, so long as they don't have a concrete goal tied to their kit/very defined strengths and weaknesses, it'll be very hard to balance them. And even if the numbers seem appropriate at a particular moment, the design is still going to feel lame to play against. I mean, whether Leblanc is balanced or not, it never feels very fair ''just getting blown up'' by her, because there is nothing you can really do but just to stay as far away from her as possible and hug teammates. The numbers in ItemsGuy's Redesigns are subjective to change. The most important thing to note is that his designs can be very balanced with the right numbers, and if a champion would either turn out to be UP or OP, all you'd have to do is play with those numbers! PS: Also 5 seconds is actually a pretty long cooldown, enough time to wreck someone. (ie AP Malphite ult on your two carries... ouch!) **SilverSquid: I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement.** Friend of mine read a lot of ItemsGuy's redesigns, loved a lot of them. However, something he'd say time and time again: this isn't DOTA, this ability doesn't fit in League. Three years ago we were struggling with this; how were we going to convince Riot to really start with the theme of a champion, which would result in more defined weaknesses, but also accentuated strengths (so you actually have these: ''WTF THAT'S POWERFUL''-ultimates)? Well, let's say I couldn't have dreamt back then that one day Quinn would be turned into the roaming marksman, with her mobility-ultimate on a **_three second cooldown._** They're getting there! (or some dragon being able to fly very large distances, or some frog being able to swallow up enemies or allies, all kits and abilities they were absolutely terrified to even think about three years ago! hehe) _**SilverSquid: Probably only the transition is boring. From having few champions that have a lot of ways to be played, to having a lot of champions in basically one way to be played. I am just trying to highlight concerns of mine. And also trying to highlight why League isn't as interesting as it used to. The sense of adventure is gone. Adventures in seeing new builds, new metas, new ways of thinking. Now they get starved by the rare release every few months, instead of whenever they played...**_ Used to play Nunu + Swain botline a lot with that same friend. It was glorious. However, the only reason we were able to get this specific type of joy out of the game is because we didn't have pro players to figure the best strategy out for us, yet. And as long as the root of the cause is the game lacking in strategic diversity, it'll remains this way, even though if you like still like playing tryndamere AP or AP Tristana (dunno if these are still possible but w/e you get the picture). Playing AP Trynd is funny because it's something different. However, it's only really as funny and cool if it's as viable as AD Tryndamere, because ultimately, the game is about trying to destroy the opponent's nexus instead of seeing yours being blown to bits. Like ItemsGuy, I really think that people enjoying the balls out of those weird item builds on champions is more of a result of the champions being boring/not delivering you the proper experience they should deliver, rather than personal expression for the sake of personal expression. _**SilverSquid: I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...**_ Seriously, hats off to you and, I salute you. I know how that feels and I'd really like to thank you for that. Goes to show that you are very passionate about this stuff, and people like you literally make this world a better place instead of the thousands of thousands that seem to give a sh*t, but don't muster up the courage to actually do something about it. And you could apply this to basically any field of work whether you'd be talking about game design, science, sports, etcetera. Making this thread and video wasn't probably the healthiest thing to do for me, but hopefully, it'll be worth it. Hope both of you reply to the things above as well as continuing your discussion!
>The numbers in ItemsGuy's Redesigns are subjective to change. The most important thing to note is that his designs can be very balanced with the right numbers, and if a champion would either turn out to be UP or OP, all you'd have to do is play with those numbers! This is something I should probably mention from time to time! I'm not great with numbers and do a lot of guess-work, but what's important is the underlying gameplay. Someone with strengths and weaknesses provides "levers" that designers can push and pull to keep them balanced, but champions like Irelia are forced to see constant nerfs because there really is no room for perfect numerical balance for her. Either she is strong and able to force other champions out of viability, or she must be nerfed to the point where she no longer feels good to play. With the Karma redesign, if windows of retaliation against her aren't big enough, her Q cooldown can be increased. If she's "too safe," then Q's leash range can be reduced. The fact that she would provide unified gameplay with defined counterplay means that even in theory, it's easy to see how balance issues would be addressed on her based on any number of scenarios. (Part of the redesign process is just sitting down for a few hours and imagining hundreds of scenarios including that character and combinations of other designs playing out moments in-game, to see if there's anywhere the base design breaks anything - this is where a vivid and restless imagination comes into play!)
: I'd just like to add a few things here. Really enjoying your discussion! > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=00230000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-24T04:10:47.729+0000) > This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. ItemsGuy has said it already, but I'd really like to say it in my own way as well, if I may. The moment Riot says [''you have to kind of look at a character and almost be able to know just from the splash image what it's abilities are, what's it's gonna do in a game, how it's going to function'' ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1yD8m2fvE&t=2m30s), followed up by an image of a blind monk that ends up doing _nothing_ a blind monk would do in the actual game, is where things go horribly wrong. Blind monks are blind, a playstyle that could be dedicated to such a character could be a playstyle that would have to do with revealing enemies ''through his senses'' rather than just being able to teleport everywhere as if he's somehow like Neo from the Matrix Revolutions (third movie). So yeah, I'd really like to lay an emphasis here on the fact that Ryan does not rehaul their philosophy, but he actually holds true to their own values. Three years ago this gap was much wider compared to now, because Riot has stepped up their game, but the moment you rework a grand duelist and still end up giving her an ability that is most effective in a teamfight scenario would yet again be a case of Riot not doing what they say they are trying to do. It's that simple, really! Kay. Gonna quote one of you guys from now on and respond/just add a little sumthin': **SilverSquid: You make Karma's solo lane boring on purpose, to force her into the support role? I don't think many Karma players will appreciate that. Or any, as far as I know.** Perhaps I can be a little more clear than ItemsGuy, he went for the detailled explanation. Here's the thing; this is the nature of a support design. They have to be designed is such a way that they can still be very useful without gold in-come. However, they shouldn't really be able to get a whole lot stronger when they get gold because otherwise they become a very safe and OP compared to champions that do actually need gold. Same reason why Riot was more than happy to kill Soraka midlane. A character that heals a whole lot shouldn't really thrive on gold or being able to function in a lane on her own. Not really getting anything out of going midlane with Redesign Karma is similar to running current Soraka midlane; the two midlaners will both end up not really doing much to each other. So yeah, this is just kind of a matter of how supports have to be designed in a very specific way. Want a support that heals? Sure, but do it in a way that makes it engaging instead of very passive, Soraka does this well right now. Want a support that deals damage? Sure, give the character high base damage, but don't give 'em scaling on their abilities through itemization, etc! @ItemsGuy: This begs the question. How is it that some of your Redesigns could actually function as both support and midlane? I mean, Redesign Soraka and Karma are always going to be that support, just like Alistar, Edmund and what not. But what about Zyra? Isn't she not going to be too strong when in lane, or isn't she going to feel underwhelming compared to other supports if she's actually played as support instead? Please elaborate. **SilverSquid: For some reason I find Sion to be more boring if all he offers thematically is "undead brute" and the bloodshield is gone. In terms of gameplay I would prefer your propositions though.** Gonna do the post I accidentally deleted yesterday (gonna try and make it much shorter, too!): Sion's an undead warrior. Sion should do undead + warrior things, which are two theme's that can fit perfectly in the space that is available for a moba design character (generally a passive and 4 abilities). Delivering on this to the best of your ability is what is going to make the design feel as powerful as it can be in terms of gaming experience, and exploding a magical shield is not really helping with that. And to tell you the truth (something that hasn't really been said by either one of us in this thread so far); there's a reason why Redesign Sion wouldn't feel like current Sion at all. Both Riot and ItemsGuy consider current Sion to be a better design because his kit ties much better together and seems to have more of a defined purpose, instead of his old, scattered design (Do I want to get a little beefy and durable to chop people's head off with my ult (AD) or do I want to stun people and blow them up? (AP)). However, his theming is still a little off, and you can easily discover this by taking a good look at his passive in relation to the rest of his kit. Does his passive tie to his other abilities similar to how Darius's passive ties to all of his abilities all the way to that scary executioning ultimate? Unfortunately, it doesn't. Currently Sion's abilities are all about being able to do stuff right in the enemies face, with his ult enabling him to actually get there. His passive is more random as of now, actually, in terms of gameplay, he just gets to do stuff a little longer even when you've killed him ''because he's undead, you know.'' Thematically it fits really well, but it doesn't really tie to the rest of his kit. But as you might have guessed I'm about to say that it's not the passive here that is the problem, but rather the fact that all his abilities say ''Juggernaut'' only because Riot decided ''we wanted him to be (a juggernaut).'' Sion gets to be a juggernaut because Riot decided they wanted him to be one and do that, similar to how Lissandra got this weird E/teleporting ability because they shoehorned ''we want her to be the initiating mage'' onto her. This goes to show how often they have treated theming more of a cherry on top of the cake rather than the thing that holds the entire kit together. Lissandra's kit is cool and all and definitely works, but it probably shouldn't be on a champion that's supposed to be the (first) ''Ice mage'' of League of Legends. Just as Sion's kit is kind of cool; charging in _really fast_ and then being able to screw over people is fun and all, but is this really something an undead warrior should do? The most characteristic things of the undead are that they are slow and they don't die that easily (zombies don't give a fuck if you snap a finger off of them, they'll keep chasing you, they don't really need limbs to keep going) Currently the only thing that really captures one of these two is his passive, all his other abilities have to do with ''Juggernaut'' which is more of a role within League of Legends rather than a characteristic or thematic aspect. A champion's function shouldn't build up the champion's identity, the identity should imply a fitting function. This is why current Maokai is more of a tree that performs well at the ''tank role'' with his generic *this-is-what-a-tank-needs-in-order-to-funtion-abilities* rather than giving you that ''angry forest'' playstyle that would make sure he'd be able to excell at the tank role in his own way due to the fact he's a strong, sturdy tree. In case of Old Sion: Undead warriors should do undead warrior things. Stunning people and blowing people up magically is more of a wizard-like thing. In case of new Sion: Undead warrior should do undead warrior things, not just charge into people and being able to devastate them. (besides, we always have had Malphite for that! See how his identity/character implies such a playstyle instead of the other way around? Malphite is supposed to be that rolling rock coming at you, building up speed. So that's what he does! And even moreso in [Malphite Redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-malphite-shard-of.html) ) Before Sion was reworked there was a time I actually played him a lot, and I ended up trying to make AD Sion work because it just felt the most fitting to play him that way. Not paying attention to anyone but the enemy carry, trying to charge through the enemy team and getting there eventually to do some chopping felt great, if only Sion had been given the tools to actually be able to do that properly, because as it happened, most of the times when you tried this you ended up being blown to bits yourself. Sure, his stun allowed you to lock someone in place (and the stun couldn't be longer due to the fact that it was ranged) but you were only able to get off about one auto attack on average the moment you actually closed the distance between the range of being able to cast your stun and the point where you were close enough to do auto attacks. Just as his shield was supposed to be a tool were he could charge through the enemy team and take hits more effectively to keep on going, mindlessly walking towards that enemy carry not giving a sh*t about anything (like a true undead, even though limbs are being blown off!), but the ability didn't mean a whole lot for him seeing as you needed AP to actually get the durability you wanted. His old, two-button, AD gameplay was the most ''undead warrior'' he has ever been. Give his old design his new passive and you even have more of an undead warrior: sure, he'd still suck, but atleast you his passive would also reach the same goal: keep on trying to reach that target and getting rewarded for it when you do. Take his current passive and his old AD playstyle, but give him 4 abilities that try to reach this goal, and you have a true undead warrior.[ Redesign Sion](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-sion-undead-champion.html) does this well, even if it is a very simple design, it gives me feelings of nostalgia and has me going: if only I could actually get to that target more effectively back then, before Sion got reworked!
>@ItemsGuy: This begs the question. How is it that some of your Redesigns could actually function as both support and midlane? I mean, Redesign Soraka and Karma are always going to be that support, just like Alistar, Edmund and what not. But what about Zyra? Isn't she not going to be too strong when in lane, or isn't she going to feel underwhelming compared to other supports if she's actually played as support instead? I've designed champions like Zyra, Heimer, etc. with some sort of flexibility in mind, but this still comes from meaningful decisions rather than just giving them everything they need to thrive in both roles simultaneously (like high base damages AND ratios). For instance, a support Zyra would be maxing her E and W over her Q, and while her plants would still be equally strong as they scale off of level, she would prioritize making the ones that slow (utility) over the ranged ones (damage) because the slow does not scale with anything. She would also be focusing on CDR at the cost of mana, so she can throw out more CC from her E (which doesn't scale with AP), meaning she would not be doing as much damage compared to if she dedicated herself to being a midlane mage that game. Similarly, Heimer as a support would be focusing on his healing inventions over his turrets, and would be building some durability (which makes his machines tougher), but less emphasis on AP and turrets means his strengths would be different, and he might be using his turrets for vision and utility (Rylai's) rather than a territorial damage threat. >Sion gets to be a juggernaut because Riot decided they wanted him to be one This is actually something that bugs me more about his update than the passive (as it could be argued that it at least rewards him for getting killed first, as his abilities draw a lot of aggro), since not only does Sion not look like he should be running across the map (with his massive axe and peg leg), but it undermines why undead things are scary. I feel Sion would be more intimidating if he more closely represented the inevitable advance of death, which is why slow zombies are scary in the first place. >Currently the only thing that really captures one of these two is his passive, all his other abilities have to do with ''Juggernaut'' which is more of a role within League of Legends rather than a characteristic or thematic aspect. [Well......](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqtqEZqGg5A) >Redesign Sion does this well, even if it is a very simple design, it gives me feelings of nostaligia and has me going: if only I could actually get to that target more effectively back then, before Sion got reworked! Keep in mind, I'm probably going to rework him again sometime soon, since he does run into a few problems I know how to fix now (like not having a way to deal with HP costs until level 6 and Enrage trying to do too many different things at once).
: The sad thing is a lot of the champs that people deem toxic like {{champion:238}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:157}} just to name quite a few is that they all don't fit their theme or their appearance as you said. Why does the Samurai who is focused on having a Katana have a giant wall. Why does Kayle light her sword up and smack you from far away with no animation? Why does Zed who is reliant on shadows and shuriken's have massive AoE? {{champion:6}} in general is near impossible to read (they should at the very least show the missle for tracking actually a missle instead of a knife). I mean I feel like a lot of toxic champs could be fixed using the things that are talked about. Also I feel like they need to maybe do away with the current AP vs. AD system. Why does {{champion:84}} do magic damage for hitting you with blades and heal off it? Why does {{champion:42}} do magic damage vs. any other ADC? I mean {{champion:222}} even fires explosives and does physical damage. I feel like Riot has such a huge pile of things to fix that they would have to focus almost a years worth of updates just to fix about 25-50% of it.
I agree with you on the first bit, but I'd like to clarify the AP vs. AD system: While it isn't great that it's often hard to tell whether something is going to deal magic or physical damage based on appearance alone (especially since Riot keeps on doing this thing where they put purely magic damage + AP scaling abilities on dedicated AD champions like Jhin and Gangplank), having color-coded damage text is a good start, and hopefully sometime down the line Riot fixes things so you could look at a champion and know what kind of damage they do rather than it being on a per ability basis. However, having two damage scaling types is fairly important for a few reasons. The first is that it prevents there from being a "be-all, end-all" defensive stat, which would ultimately have to be much weaker than either armor or MR because of how universal it is. Being able to build armor and still be vulnerable to magic damage means that armor can be more effective against physical damage, although you should be able to build armor against someone like Jhin and either mitigate some of their damage or force them to buy into % armor penetration (instead of something that gives them a lot more raw damage, which would be bad for your more fragile allies). The second is that it allows different damage patterns to exist without being weird with basic attack ratios. AP-scaling abilities are allowed to be stronger in some way than AD-scaling abilities, because that stat only benefits ability damage (whereas AD benefits both basic attack damage *and* AD-scaling ability damage). It was to the point where Riot wanted to completely segregate stats that increase basic attack damage and stats that increase ability damage, but that also happens to make AD abilities feel really bad! >I feel like Riot has such a huge pile of things to fix that they would have to focus almost a years worth of updates just to fix about 25-50% of it. Unfortunately, you're also right here. Part of me hopes that Riot will either stop making new champions or simply put a pause on new champ production and focus all of their resources to fixing problems currently in the game. My main fear here, though, is that people may become rapidly disinterested in League once there is no longer the promise of new playable content, and if Riot shares that fear, it might discourage them from doing anything like that. I'd assume new champions are a big part of their revenue, after all!
: I have some things to add to that. The strategic diversity you celebrate in HotS does not exist. It's teamfight or bust, any hero must take exclusively teamfight talents, any hero that isn't strong in teamfights (like, well, Abathur and Gazlowe) is not competitively viable. Picking the best heroes is insanely important because there is little individual outplay potential and having bigger numbers in teamfights is the most important thing. Dota does pull off strategic diversity... at the cost of not actually having much in the way of tactics. It is all about strategy: when to rosh, when to push, when to farm, how many people to assign to each lane. Execution is largely reduced to a reflex test: can I stun and 100-0 the guy before he uses BKB and makes my character irrelevant? It is an amazing spectator sport, but actually playing it in anything less than a highly organised team and trying to strategise is so futile that pub players just pick carries and play for kills. Dota is also marred by unnecessary legacy complexity, just like LoL is burdened by legacy game design choices. --- What would happen in an imaginary game where Maokai would fortify his side of the map with tree turrets, Leblanc had 10 independent illusions, and Quinn was a pet character? We know what would happen, because that's how Dota works. Firstly, you have to strategically assemble a team composition or you have no play and lose by default. If this does not happen, whichever side is better at their strategy than the other side wins. In other words: there would be few close fights between evenly matched champions or teams, no tense laning, no surviving at 5 hp and getting a kill. Champion strengths would be so disparate that the outcome of any conflict is decided before it even starts, depending on which team is playing to their strengths. Zed ganks Heimerdinger? Heimerdinger is a pusher whose entire kit is about building stuff, so his dueling strength would be zero and he is a free guaranteed kill. Kog gets farmed? GG, should have stopped him, game over. Tl;dr the reason why champions are so similar is because it creates fair fights, and fighting is why people play this game. People don't play to kill the nexus, and would not be interested in a game that eliminates fair fights in favour of making total strangers try to organize and implement unfun strategies like rat doto. That's why Dota fails despite having the same learning curve as LoL and a better engine.
>The strategic diversity you celebrate in HotS does not exist. It's teamfight or bust, any hero must take exclusively teamfight talents, any hero that isn't strong in teamfights (like, well, Abathur and Gazlowe) is not competitively viable. Picking the best heroes is insanely important because there is little individual outplay potential and having bigger numbers in teamfights is the most important thing. This is more of a "the current state of the game is imbalanced" thing than a "strategic diversity does not exist" thing. The options are there, but it's up to the designers to make sure they all have their benefits and drawbacks. Contrast to League, where the vast majority of champions are largely geared towards the same strategy within their role and simply succeed in it to various degrees. >Dota does pull off strategic diversity... at the cost of not actually having much in the way of tactics. It is all about strategy: when to rosh, when to push, when to farm, how many people to assign to each lane. Execution is largely reduced to a reflex test: can I stun and 100-0 the guy before he uses BKB and makes my character irrelevant? It is an amazing spectator sport, but actually playing it in anything less than a highly organised team and trying to strategise is so futile that pub players just pick carries and play for kills. This is mostly part of it being a really, really old game made by people who didn't have over a decade of MOBA history to learn from. While it suffers tactically, it does have a fairly satisfying breadth of variety when it comes to having different heroes contribute to each game in largely different ways depending on who their allies and enemies are. Playing against Lucian doesn't feel much different than playing against any other ADC... >Dota is also marred by unnecessary legacy complexity, just like LoL is burdened by legacy game design choices. Pretty unfortunate, huh! If only League could loosen its shackles with like, a sequel game or something... (Although that didn't necessarily do much for DotA 2 as far as not being beholden to legacy goes. It kind of was around for 10 years before that, though, which may have had something to do with it.) >What would happen in an imaginary game where Maokai would fortify his side of the map with tree turrets, Leblanc had 10 independent illusions, and Quinn was a pet character? We know what would happen, because that's how Dota works. Firstly, you have to strategically assemble a team composition or you have no play and lose by default. If this does not happen, whichever side is better at their strategy than the other side wins. This is why I try not to be as weird and specific as DotA is. Maokai on a defensive team means they can try to force the game into a single lane and slowly push towards the enemy base, while Maokai on an offensive team means the other 4 guys don't have to worry so badly about an initiation going south, since they have someone they can fall back to. It should ultimately be less about "you have to have all the pieces to one of these puzzles or you WILL be sucked" and more about a combination of covering your weaknesses, amplifying your strengths, capitalizing on opponents' weaknesses, and mitigating their strengths. Regardless of who you or your allies are (and with a good item system focused more on strategic flexibility than stat optimization - ZZ'Rot is a good start to this), you should be able to do at least one of these things for your team, and that adds value that you must then play around. >In other words: there would be few close fights between evenly matched champions or teams, no tense laning, no surviving at 5 hp and getting a kill. Champion strengths would be so disparate that the outcome of any conflict is decided before it even starts, depending on which team is playing to their strengths. Zed ganks Heimerdinger? Heimerdinger is a pusher whose entire kit is about building stuff, so his dueling strength would be zero and he is a free guaranteed kill. Kog gets farmed? GG, should have stopped him, game over. It's not rock-paper-scissors here, though - if your strength is someone else's weakness, then their strength is going to be your weakness. Take Jhin vs. Kalista, for example - if Jhin can use the tools he has to keep fights within his window, he can pull ahead, while if Kalista can draw things out for as long as possible, she can create an advantage for herself. Chances are, more often than not, things will end up somewhere in the middle (unless there's a massive skill gap), which is where the close fights an even trades happen. It's a bit more interesting than "we throw our stats at each other and land a skillshot and see who wins," anyway. Also, fallback patterns exist for a reason. If Heimer is worried about Zed ganking, he can opt out of using his structures offensively (to overextend and progress lanes) and instead use them defensively (to hide behind and force Zed to dive through 4 towers instead of 1). Zed still gets rewarded for his offensive pressure by stopping Heimer from pushing like a maniac, and Heimer gets to keep his skin and protect his lane! Also, with Kog, it depends on which one you're talking about. If it's [this Kog](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-kogmaw-mouth-of-abyss.html), then he's still super vulnerable to initiation and fighting out in the open (especially since he no longer explodes!) and isn't great at dueling other carries even if he's a few dozen CS ahead. If it's [the Kog we don't talk about](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/experimental-redesign-kogmaw-mouth-of.html), then stopping him from farming is easier than stopping Veigar from farming, so if you just decide to leave him alone in lane and frolic around the Dragon pit for half an hour, that's kind of on you! >Tl;dr the reason why champions are so similar is because it creates fair fights, and fighting is why people play this game. People don't play to kill the nexus, and would not be interested in a game that eliminates fair fights in favour of making total strangers try to organize and implement unfun strategies like rat doto. That's why Dota fails despite having the same learning curve as LoL and a better engine. Correction: Having champions be so similar creates fair fights among the top 2-4 best champions in their role, because anyone who doesn't do that similar thing as well as those guys isn't strong enough to be competitive. This is why Riot is putting such an emphasis on not only unique input/output, but strategic niche as well - they kind of don't want every game to feel the same, or have only a quarter of the roster be competitively viable (and thus picked damn near every pub game since release - Lee Sin, I'm looking at you) at a time. If Riot wanted a game with similar characters just fighting each other, they would've stopped at the original 40. (League's playerbase would have also stopped at the original 40)
: > the visual gave less actionable gameplay information than it needed to, considering it was affected by damage done to all nearby allies AND Karma Should be rather intuitive, actually. You hurt her ally, she gains the glowing bar. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but keep in mind, that I am working with what I've got; the game so far, the community and Riot's philosophy. I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement. This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. I made a passive that's visually clearer than Irelia's, while giving more thematics than today and better counterplay than the Old Karma. As you can see I try to move a step forward and wouldn't want to undermine the staircase to make a better one. Please keep that in mind. > Any champion that brings value to their team by adding power onto other champions must consequently be weaker on their own I don't mind having a weaker, but more flexible champion. That's why I liked 3.5 - 5.10 Karma the most. She wasn't a really strong mage or support, but reasonable. She was flexible and thematically interesting. I think there is also a design argument for having those kinds of champions. > That, and it's not that her solo lane is simply "boring," I am trying to stay short and precise. You want her out of sololanes, which people won't like. That's my point. > Except, since she's at full health and not risking anything, she's getting 0 value out of her passive If she isn't supposed to scale well with AP, she probably really doesn't need the AP that much. Getting hit herself isn't a requirement, having her target hit, is. Getting through to her and hitting her would give her even more power though, compared to Soraka, who would lose her healthpool to heal with. > Just having it on, say, your Tristana (who you want to not die) means that you'll be missing on all the effectiveness you'd get from putting it on Malphite Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot. > And like I said, CC isn't equally useful in every scenario, and neither is damage. Neither is shielding. Also, I appreciate the anedotes, but you are kind of overdoing them on really easy points. It feels like you are getting sidetracked sometimes. > With Karma, however, "And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal" is a moot point if I remember old Karma's kit correctly I was talking about modern Karma (RW) here. But either way, if Old Karma uses her mantra for healing (RQ), she can't use it for the extra damage (RE). It's pretty much the same, but more unique in application. And "also here is some damage" on her RQ only worked if you had the propper positioning and timing... So it takes more skill and planning than the current format. > Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. I know where you are getting at, but you are painting it a bit black and white. I mean, what's the point in hitting someone, if he can heal it up anyways, only spending some mana? So you should kill him outright and he should have an instant dodge. Sometimes it's more interesting to have multiple decisions and actions add up. Sometimes reliability is a desireable trait. Sometimes people like working with nuances. Flashy kits and hits are interesting, but sometimes dividing it into more steps adds some drama to it. I mean, we have multiple layers of towers for a reason, I guess? Instead of just one inhibitor tower right behind the lane. > You can only ever force her to be less efficient, which limits their agency I disagree. Or, let's say, I would love to compare it to an Annie, who flashes onto you and instagibs you. I don't think that Karma has been even close to the worst offenders here. Or let's look at Zed. If he ults you, you are guaranteed to take some damage. But dodging (most of) his Qs can limit the damage he does, It's a few seconds of multiple actions that add up, but ultimately, they will take more or less damage.... in a situation that both participants are involved in. Not saying that I liked the lack of counterplay Old Karma had... > I wouldn't really describe old Karma as a champion that alternated between helping and hurting You could either heal with RQ or damage with RE. You couldn't have both. This is the closest to _"not necessarily having a heal in her kit"_ we have gotten in LoL so far. Next closest would be Liss. > Rather, I understand you found something about a character that had a very strong impact on you I am mostly concerned with game design. I used to work a lot on the game design of a SC2 mod, in a small community. But I never thought I'd be good/experienced/knowing enough to contribute to a community as big as LoL's. But when my favourite champion was changed contrary to my understanding of game design and contrary to my understanding of RIOT's game design and contrary to the desires of all the Karma fans I knew... I just had to start arguing. And I have yet to hear a justification for what they did in 5.10, that would beat any of my game design arguments. Seeing someone imply I would do this for my own needs, when I spent the last few months arguing as objectively as possible, feels like a hit in the guts. > Again, not everything needs to have a secret compartment or pleasant surprise. Xerath doesn't need to show us that he has a secret heart of gold by healing his teammates Not saying they need something contrary. But unusual. A personal spin. Like having Brand's combos or Twitch piercing enemies. Rats stink and are sneaky, we get it, but piercing crossbow shots? Nice. I also like that Aurelion Sol isn't just a dragon, but a cosmic one. How Braum has a door instead of a shield and Jinx has no boobs. It's the small things in life, you know(heh)? > rather than being surprising for the sake of being surprising. Of course not. But this would probably come naturally with good character design. Sion doesn't have a bloodshield for the sake of not being a brute, but because he used to have a similar shield. That's not a perfect reason, but at least a reasonable one. On a side note, I dislike Shen's new sword. It seems like a missfit. Probably the european sword on a ninja. Ninja tank was already stretching it... > Ideally, exploration should be more about seeing how 5 unique characters interact Probably, but this might fall prey to what LoL should be, what it is and what it used to be. It's a weird hybrid of those things. It used to offer things it shouldn't have, what surprisingly many people got attached to. Maybe an argument for LoL2? > It is very clear that you care about Karma a lot, and I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to plead her case to a complete stranger I don't choose those strangers randomly. I usually only try with people I expect good arguments from. Either I learn to defeat them, or I can adapt them. Either way, I am moving forward. I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...
>Not saying they need something contrary. But unusual. A personal spin. Like having Brand's combos or Twitch piercing enemies. Rats stink and are sneaky, we get it, but piercing crossbow shots? Nice. I'll have to disagree with you on Brand (his personal spin is just "he has Video Game Mechanics" we decided to give him), and I'm having a hard time seeing what's so special about having sharp projectiles that go in a straight line continue to go in a straight line. A rat with a crossbow, though? That's pretty cool. >I also like that Aurelion Sol isn't just a dragon, but a cosmic one. How Braum has a door instead of a shield and Jinx has no boobs. It's the small things in life, you know(heh)? This seems more like visual characteristics (which League kind of needs to create if they want League to be an IP) than odd gameplay nuances, although that may not have been the point you were making. I do agree that there should be something at least interesting in every character's design (whether that's something unconventional like Braum using an indestructible door as a shield, or an interesting thematic blend like "sad mummy child"), but at the end of the day you should still be able to get the gist of a champion by looking at them. >Of course not. But this would probably come naturally with good character design. Sion doesn't have a bloodshield for the sake of not being a brute, but because he used to have a similar shield. That's not a perfect reason, but at least a reasonable one. > >On a side note, I dislike Shen's new sword. It seems like a missfit. Probably the european sword on a ninja. Ninja tank was already stretching it... It's the fact that it was slapped on to a kit that already didn't have any thematic direction. So now he's a ninja who can taunt you by dashing and also has a floating sword that can make you dodge attacks if you're near it and it gives him a shield too I guess? It's why I put so much emphasis on thematic clarity (and keeping a limit to 2 primary themes, hence why Sion can't be Undead + Brute + Mage), because when you put too much in the pot, it becomes a mess. Like, a fried beef and corn flakes sundae ain't great, kids. :S >Probably, but this might fall prey to what LoL should be, what it is and what it used to be. It's a weird hybrid of those things. It used to offer things it shouldn't have, what surprisingly many people got attached to. Maybe an argument for LoL2? I want a LoL2 because as heartless and draconian as my design philosophy may be, I hate taking things that people like away from them (especially when they think it's for no reason). If you look past my villainous exterior and into my tragic past, you can see that I, too, [know that pain](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/89/Trundle_TraditionalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130501083140)...
: > the visual gave less actionable gameplay information than it needed to, considering it was affected by damage done to all nearby allies AND Karma Should be rather intuitive, actually. You hurt her ally, she gains the glowing bar. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but keep in mind, that I am working with what I've got; the game so far, the community and Riot's philosophy. I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement. This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. I made a passive that's visually clearer than Irelia's, while giving more thematics than today and better counterplay than the Old Karma. As you can see I try to move a step forward and wouldn't want to undermine the staircase to make a better one. Please keep that in mind. > Any champion that brings value to their team by adding power onto other champions must consequently be weaker on their own I don't mind having a weaker, but more flexible champion. That's why I liked 3.5 - 5.10 Karma the most. She wasn't a really strong mage or support, but reasonable. She was flexible and thematically interesting. I think there is also a design argument for having those kinds of champions. > That, and it's not that her solo lane is simply "boring," I am trying to stay short and precise. You want her out of sololanes, which people won't like. That's my point. > Except, since she's at full health and not risking anything, she's getting 0 value out of her passive If she isn't supposed to scale well with AP, she probably really doesn't need the AP that much. Getting hit herself isn't a requirement, having her target hit, is. Getting through to her and hitting her would give her even more power though, compared to Soraka, who would lose her healthpool to heal with. > Just having it on, say, your Tristana (who you want to not die) means that you'll be missing on all the effectiveness you'd get from putting it on Malphite Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot. > And like I said, CC isn't equally useful in every scenario, and neither is damage. Neither is shielding. Also, I appreciate the anedotes, but you are kind of overdoing them on really easy points. It feels like you are getting sidetracked sometimes. > With Karma, however, "And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal" is a moot point if I remember old Karma's kit correctly I was talking about modern Karma (RW) here. But either way, if Old Karma uses her mantra for healing (RQ), she can't use it for the extra damage (RE). It's pretty much the same, but more unique in application. And "also here is some damage" on her RQ only worked if you had the propper positioning and timing... So it takes more skill and planning than the current format. > Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. I know where you are getting at, but you are painting it a bit black and white. I mean, what's the point in hitting someone, if he can heal it up anyways, only spending some mana? So you should kill him outright and he should have an instant dodge. Sometimes it's more interesting to have multiple decisions and actions add up. Sometimes reliability is a desireable trait. Sometimes people like working with nuances. Flashy kits and hits are interesting, but sometimes dividing it into more steps adds some drama to it. I mean, we have multiple layers of towers for a reason, I guess? Instead of just one inhibitor tower right behind the lane. > You can only ever force her to be less efficient, which limits their agency I disagree. Or, let's say, I would love to compare it to an Annie, who flashes onto you and instagibs you. I don't think that Karma has been even close to the worst offenders here. Or let's look at Zed. If he ults you, you are guaranteed to take some damage. But dodging (most of) his Qs can limit the damage he does, It's a few seconds of multiple actions that add up, but ultimately, they will take more or less damage.... in a situation that both participants are involved in. Not saying that I liked the lack of counterplay Old Karma had... > I wouldn't really describe old Karma as a champion that alternated between helping and hurting You could either heal with RQ or damage with RE. You couldn't have both. This is the closest to _"not necessarily having a heal in her kit"_ we have gotten in LoL so far. Next closest would be Liss. > Rather, I understand you found something about a character that had a very strong impact on you I am mostly concerned with game design. I used to work a lot on the game design of a SC2 mod, in a small community. But I never thought I'd be good/experienced/knowing enough to contribute to a community as big as LoL's. But when my favourite champion was changed contrary to my understanding of game design and contrary to my understanding of RIOT's game design and contrary to the desires of all the Karma fans I knew... I just had to start arguing. And I have yet to hear a justification for what they did in 5.10, that would beat any of my game design arguments. Seeing someone imply I would do this for my own needs, when I spent the last few months arguing as objectively as possible, feels like a hit in the guts. > Again, not everything needs to have a secret compartment or pleasant surprise. Xerath doesn't need to show us that he has a secret heart of gold by healing his teammates Not saying they need something contrary. But unusual. A personal spin. Like having Brand's combos or Twitch piercing enemies. Rats stink and are sneaky, we get it, but piercing crossbow shots? Nice. I also like that Aurelion Sol isn't just a dragon, but a cosmic one. How Braum has a door instead of a shield and Jinx has no boobs. It's the small things in life, you know(heh)? > rather than being surprising for the sake of being surprising. Of course not. But this would probably come naturally with good character design. Sion doesn't have a bloodshield for the sake of not being a brute, but because he used to have a similar shield. That's not a perfect reason, but at least a reasonable one. On a side note, I dislike Shen's new sword. It seems like a missfit. Probably the european sword on a ninja. Ninja tank was already stretching it... > Ideally, exploration should be more about seeing how 5 unique characters interact Probably, but this might fall prey to what LoL should be, what it is and what it used to be. It's a weird hybrid of those things. It used to offer things it shouldn't have, what surprisingly many people got attached to. Maybe an argument for LoL2? > It is very clear that you care about Karma a lot, and I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to plead her case to a complete stranger I don't choose those strangers randomly. I usually only try with people I expect good arguments from. Either I learn to defeat them, or I can adapt them. Either way, I am moving forward. I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...
>Should be rather intuitive, actually. You hurt her ally, she gains the glowing bar. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but keep in mind, that I am working with what I've got; the game so far, the community and Riot's philosophy. I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement. I think it's less about "they need to know that hurting her allies gives her bars" and more about "the nature of these bars is really complicated to play around (damage in a specific window, 3 bars could go to 0 with little warning)" and "its lack of gating makes it hard for opponents to make informed decisions that feel good." Jhin's ammo bar lets you know exactly how many shots he has left, and which one is going to be the strongest. Each attack removes one bar, and him doing his reload animation refills 'em. Even then, this is a lot of information to take in considering how many other things are happening at once in the average League game. >This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. I wouldn't call it "rehauling" as much as "reiterating"! It's why I so frequently use Riot's own posts to back up my points, and much of my frustration comes from League not currently living up to their standards. >I made a passive that's visually clearer than Irelia's, while giving more thematics than today and better counterplay than the Old Karma. As you can see I try to move a step forward and wouldn't want to undermine the staircase to make a better one. Please keep that in mind. I can appreciate that! A good amount of people don't want big changes, and you cater to that. >I don't mind having a weaker, but more flexible champion. That's why I liked 3.5 - 5.10 Karma the most. She wasn't a really strong mage or support, but reasonable. She was flexible and thematically interesting. I think there is also a design argument for having those kinds of champions. But the thing is, there's a reason why Riot is trying so hard to avoid "generalist" gameplay right now. When someone with much smaller strengths/weaknesses is strong, they end up drowning out the competition. When they are balanced appropriately to their power budget, they end up being too weak to be viable. Flexibility is fine (which is why my redesign incorporates an offensive/defensive duality), but it should manifest in a more moment-to-moment way ("I can choose to either heal or damage in this scenario") than just "This character just has varying degrees of everything all the time." >I am trying to stay short and precise. You want her out of sololanes, which people won't like. That's my point. That's alright. I'm fine doing something that people don't like if it results in a healthier game for everyone. Some people like solo lane Lulu, but I am glad Riot is trying to push her back into the support role because her gameplay isn't healthy outside of that capacity (it's why old "I can sustain myself forever while poking you down" Soraka was bad, too). It's a plain logic thing in this scenario too, since someone who brings value to the team through magnifying the power of other characters shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe against a character that spends all/most of their power on being self-sufficient. It's kind of like how hypercarries being able to solo effectively is unhealthy, because it means they lack the weak early game that their super strong lategame should be compensating for. >If she isn't supposed to scale well with AP, she probably really doesn't need the AP that much. Getting hit herself isn't a requirement, having her target hit, is. Getting through to her and hitting her would give her even more power though, compared to Soraka, who would lose her healthpool to heal with. She isn't supposed to, which is why I can give her a lot innately (something like up to 36 + 4.5/level) without breaking her. It's like Thresh getting souls or Bard getting chimes, except it's allowed to be more powerful due to its moment-to-moment variance and high risk. The thing is, getting through to her would also leave her marksman open, which is generally what you want. Even this additional power is innately more risky than with old Karma/your 3-Mantra redesign, because her added mobility and burst survivability can let her stay at low health with relatively less risk, on top of her also not having to get hit as long as any of her allies are. >Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot. Short cooldown in addition to weakness to burst. It's a 5 second cooldown at max rank (9 to 7 in lane), which is more than enough window to throw some damage on whoever the crest used to be on before she throws it back. Either way, it's much less damning than "you get punished for hurting anyone near Karma." >I was talking about modern Karma (RW) here. But either way, if Old Karma uses her mantra for healing (RQ), she can't use it for the extra damage (RE). It's pretty much the same, but more unique in application. The thing is, though...she's adding healing to a damaging ability (RQ) or damage to a shielding ability (RE). You're right in saying that it's "pretty much the same," but "the effects are happening in different shapes" isn't enough of a distinction to be as meaningful as forgoing one effect for another, where each effect has distinct use cases and strategic value. >Sometimes it's more interesting to have multiple decisions and actions add up. Sometimes reliability is a desireable trait. Sometimes people like working with nuances. Flashy kits and hits are interesting, but sometimes dividing it into more steps adds some drama to it. I mean, we have multiple layers of towers for a reason, I guess? Instead of just one inhibitor tower right behind the lane. Having things be distinct gameplay-wise is as important as having them be distinct visually, and for the same reason: clarity. It's not enough for you to be able to tell what you're doing, everyone on your team and the opponent's team has to as well, as that information is part of what will allow them to make informed gameplay decisions they can feel good and confident about. I know I can go all-in on Vladimir after he uses his pull, that I should disengage on Darius once he's got 5 stacks on me, that I can get away with flanking Veigar after he's thrown down his cage. Having things be so heavily mixed and nuanced leads to muddiness, which is why Karma was reworked (visuals and gameplay) in the first place. Visuals need to distinguish themselves to the player just as gameplay moments must. I also don't see where layered mechanics have to do with generalist mechanics. I think a more accurate comparison would be if destroying a tower in any lane gave all lanes a slightly stronger minion, rather than inhibitors creating super minions in that lane or all minions getting a buff the moment one team secures an overwhelming tower advantage. >I disagree. Or, let's say, I would love to compare it to an Annie, who flashes onto you and instagibs you. I don't think that Karma has been even close to the worst offenders here. Or let's look at Zed. If he ults you, you are guaranteed to take some damage. But dodging (most of) his Qs can limit the damage he does, It's a few seconds of multiple actions that add up, but ultimately, they will take more or less damage.... in a situation that both participants are involved in. > >Not saying that I liked the lack of counterplay Old Karma had... Unfortunately, you've just compared it to two of the worst-feeling moments in the game (there's a reason why Zed is so frequently picked and complained about, after all). And even then, you could force Annie to use her Flash defensively, or force Zed to use his brief untargetability to dodge a projectile that would seal his fate otherwise. Karma just kind of "gets" things, with the volume of those things only varying due to circumstance. You can't force her to clutch a shield and then feel good about not having to eat a double nuke, which is one of the few things her current kit accomplishes. >You could either heal with RQ or damage with RE. You couldn't have both. This is the closest to "not necessarily having a heal in her kit" we have gotten in LoL so far. Next closest would be Liss. You still get damage with RQ and a shield with RE, so you choose between "Do I want a damage + heal or a shield + damage" which is like having to choose between pasta bolognese and ravioli. You still get the meat, cheese, and pasta, they're just arranged a bit differently. That might be enough for you, but I can't justify it. >I am mostly concerned with game design. I used to work a lot on the game design of a SC2 mod, in a small community. MY BUDDY >But I never thought I'd be good/experienced/knowing enough to contribute to a community as big as LoL's. But when my favourite champion was changed contrary to my understanding of game design and contrary to my understanding of RIOT's game design and contrary to the desires of all the Karma fans I knew... I just had to start arguing. And I have yet to hear a justification for what they did in 5.10, that would beat any of my game design arguments. > >Seeing someone imply I would do this for my own needs, when I spent the last few months arguing as objectively as possible, feels like a hit in the guts. Sorry, I should've said "for you and other Karma players." What you're doing isn't just selfish wish-fulfillment, but I can't ignore that it largely favors the satisfaction of Karma players over that of their opponents, and in game design, both must be considered in equal share.
: How to Bring Karma's Fans back to Her
(As a little side detail, I actually ended up [designing a kit/champion](http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.com/2013/04/lady-yuan-matriarch.html) all around Karma's old personality and fans, which acts as a counterpart to the more modern iteration that informed my redesign: she negates windows of aggression while Karma retaliates against them) +I definitely feel that something was lost when Riot opted to remove Karma's fans, so I'm glad to see that you've looked for a way to reincorporate such an iconic part of her old character! -Unfortunately, that being said, her thematic ties with the fans start and end with her Q, and really only due to the fan shape. If you're going for bladed fans, the damage certainly makes sense, although adding healing in as well is somewhat confusing (it's like Gnar's boomerang buffing allies it passes through). They're not really all that present with her passive or W/E, which all have their own thematic luggage. Not much else to say about this one, unfortunately, as my gripes and praise here overlap heavily with those aimed at her original design and your other proposed redesign. I do like your initiative, though, and it's a pretty good indicator that there's something very worthwhile that was lost in translation when Riot went back to the drawing board with her. There's also the matter of Karma being really vague and ill-defined on Riot's part, so you being able to cobble something as coherent as this or your other redesign from the pieces you've been given is pretty impressive on its own (and I'd say they're both improvements in some way or another compared to both her initial design and current iteration).
: A Modern Karma with two Mantra Charges?
Let's take a look at his one first! +Definitely think that having multiple Mantra charges on Karma is important (both in terms of distinctness and allowing Karma to have the possibility of an element of duality). -On the other hand, the properties of QWE kind of defeat the purpose of that flexibility; instead of getting to choose to do a big defensive ability and a big offensive ability, you get two smaller defensive/offensive hybrids (except in the case of RRW -> Q/E, which is her only "extreme"); the choices are there, but aside from nuance, they largely feel the same. +Being able to double-up on an ability's bonuses adds power in a very clear way, providing a nice element of variance (double R is allowed to feel really good because of its increased cost) - the difference between a non-Mantra'd ability and a double Mantra'd ability would make it feel like Karma is really letting loose when she decides to play her full hand, which feels more like an "ultimate" than her current Mantra. -I've already mentioned this, but even with a visual indicator, "damage Karma has taken" + "also applies to allies" + "based on % health rather than raw damage" + "only affects the past 5-second window" = a really, really hard to read mechanic. Aside from not giving great feedback on which champion you should actually hit, it would also force not only Karma but every enemy near her to memorize how much damage has been dealt to all of her allies within the past 5 seconds, including knowing when the huge/random spikes of damage happened so they can guess when her bonus is about to sharply drop. +That being said, a similar mechanic wouldn't be impossible. I'd almost recommend something along the lines of it being based around how many allies around her are below half-health, or really anything less crazy and dynamic than "how much % health damage Karma and all nearby allies have taken within the past 5 second window." Perhaps some sort of buff with an internal cooldown that is triggered when the damage her and her nearby allies have recently taken reaches a certain threshold (kind of like a multi-unit Sterak's)? That way, it achieves the goal of her wanting to immediately retaliate to damage in a team-based scenario. -However, that still comes with the catch of her limited windows of power still not giving enemies a way to make an aggressive play without it being immediately thrown back in their faces, so while it mitigates that pain, it doesn't eliminate it outright. I talk about this a lot, but it's why Braum's shield can only block for a few of his allies from a limited direction, and why Tahm can only eat one ally at a time. This power ultimately needs to be gated by something that hopefully isn't just the passive's effectiveness, so an internal cooldown might be a good place to start. +Although it can be a bit redundant at times (with both a tether link and lots of AoE effects), this Karma does seem to have a strong strategic niche of wanting to be in fights involving a lot of allies and enemies at the same time. Enemies who would want to mitigate her strategic power would then have the option of trying to split her team up by going after multiple objectives at once, splitpushing, bringing guys like Gragas who can manually split her team, etc. ~While it does have a strong identity, that identity doesn't really include counter-aggression (beyond her passive, anyway). I wouldn't really say it has to, as her gameplay theme could be more based around the yin-yang duality than the repercussions of [the slightly mis-informed modern interpretation of] "Karma" but that is your decision as a designer. I might say more about this later, but I want to check out your other one before I pass out!
: > Except, visual indicators aren't just there to look pretty! The point of having stuff like Jhin's ammo count or Darius's floating bleed stacks are to give allies and opponents an idea of what your capabilities are This was the exact point of the bars? Where do you get from that I want them to "just be pretty"??? It sometimes feels like you aren't even answering to the things I wrote... > insofar as you would have no real reason to attack a Karma in a solo lane so all she'd be accomplishing is allowing you to freefarm. You make Karma's solo lane boring on purpose, to force her into the support role? I don't think many Karma players will appreciate that. Or any, as far as I know. > Karma's a duo-lane champion because she can discourage you from attacking someone you absolutely do want to attack (the marksman who will destroy you if they get to freefarm) at the cost of leaving herself open Compared to Soraka, Karma wouldn't need to poke to keep her ADC alive. She would let him auto-win any trade and stay all the way back. There is no reason to expose her. This is exactly the reason why Soraka was reworked. > If she constantly leaves herself open - **which she needs to do to support her allies** - she runs the risk of taking burst she can't slap away Does she? Why? Just leave the crest on the most likely target? > even if she shields a full-health ally and the shield isn't scratched, she could have still dealt damage And Heimer's CC does damage too? You also just CC'ed someone. You perfectly used all of it, while Karma could use half of one ability. And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal? Isn't this the same thing as forcing Heimer to CC, but his damage would've been more useful? > Old Karma has a real hard time making mistakes It was more about making many decisions in short time, which can have different effectivenes-levels. Which enemies could partake in, by creating situations in which the Karma's actions were more or less effective. > Current Karma loses that defense from shield ult when she opts for the fireball ult, which is much different than "Oh, Karma gave a shield and damage but we didn't really need damage in that scenario." Then find situations, in which you need both. This creates (created) a clear differences between good and great Karmas. > I'm really not seeing where the "interesting" aspect to this comes in, honestly. You are describing to me two ultimates which have a survivability and damage component to them while not really providing any interesting tradeoffs Some people just enjoy champions that can alternate between helping and hurting. Karma used to be this champion for league and they basically removed her. But if you start thinking about the combination of spells, you might have an easier time seeing it: It's that you could double down your shield-damage spell with your other damage spell, for two offensive spells, or your damage-heal spell for a shield and a heal on a target. But you had weird and unusual tools of applying them. Also I don't get why people didn't see the tradeoffs in deciding between those 3: * unreliable long range Aoe damage, double procs and a slow * semi reliable single target damage, and strong selfheal * reliable, but restricted AoE damage with team speedup/shields You didn't only have to think about WHAT to choose, but HOW you could apply it and make it effective. > I understand the want to eat your cake and still have it, but that's more from a player perspective than a designer perspective Don't insult me. > If you find Sion boring because he's an undead brute, that's because he's an undead brute. You can find Brand boring because he's just a fire guy, and that's fine, because that's what he is. There is a difference between archetypes and stereotypes. The trick is to have recognizeable patterns, so people can relate, but also something unusual or new, which stereotypes lack. > I find it weird that people get caught up in "personal expression" in a game with 5 different roles and 130 champions Because, for some reason, people are less and less defined over the champion they main, than the role they play. Also, having some funky, offmeta builds is fun. Just because it shows your favourite champions in a weird and new way. It's probably also partly exploration, which comes into this. Probably only the transition is boring. From having few champions that have a lot of ways to be played, to having a lot of champions in basically one way to be played. I am just trying to highlight concerns of mine. And also trying to highlight why League isn't as interesting as it used to. The sense of adventure is gone. Adventures in seeing new builds, new metas, new ways of thinking. Now they get starved by the rare release every few months, instead of whenever they played... Anways, I critisized your redesigns a lot. For fairness sake, you should have a swing at mine; Here are my best received Karma reworks so far. * [Karma can double Mantra spells](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jpxfF5r0-a-modern-karma-with-two-mantra-charges) * [Shortranged fan wielding Karma](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jlwYrQAE-how-to-bring-karmas-fans-back-to-her)
(New post because of character limit, which probably means I'm not being as succinct as I should be) >Anways, I critisized your redesigns a lot. For fairness sake, you should have a swing at mine; Here are my best received Karma reworks so far. It is very clear that you care about Karma a lot, and I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to plead her case to a complete stranger. Even if I disagree with you on certain points, what's important is that there's something about her that sparked something great in you. Should I ever find myself within Riot, it would be my duty as a game designer to find what's at the core of that spark, and recreate it in a way that is not only faithful, but adds to game health...if not through Karma, then certainly through someone else. (With that out of the way, I'd be happy to take a look at your work. If it isn't helpful, I hope it at least lets you know what a crazy person would think about it.)
: > Except, visual indicators aren't just there to look pretty! The point of having stuff like Jhin's ammo count or Darius's floating bleed stacks are to give allies and opponents an idea of what your capabilities are This was the exact point of the bars? Where do you get from that I want them to "just be pretty"??? It sometimes feels like you aren't even answering to the things I wrote... > insofar as you would have no real reason to attack a Karma in a solo lane so all she'd be accomplishing is allowing you to freefarm. You make Karma's solo lane boring on purpose, to force her into the support role? I don't think many Karma players will appreciate that. Or any, as far as I know. > Karma's a duo-lane champion because she can discourage you from attacking someone you absolutely do want to attack (the marksman who will destroy you if they get to freefarm) at the cost of leaving herself open Compared to Soraka, Karma wouldn't need to poke to keep her ADC alive. She would let him auto-win any trade and stay all the way back. There is no reason to expose her. This is exactly the reason why Soraka was reworked. > If she constantly leaves herself open - **which she needs to do to support her allies** - she runs the risk of taking burst she can't slap away Does she? Why? Just leave the crest on the most likely target? > even if she shields a full-health ally and the shield isn't scratched, she could have still dealt damage And Heimer's CC does damage too? You also just CC'ed someone. You perfectly used all of it, while Karma could use half of one ability. And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal? Isn't this the same thing as forcing Heimer to CC, but his damage would've been more useful? > Old Karma has a real hard time making mistakes It was more about making many decisions in short time, which can have different effectivenes-levels. Which enemies could partake in, by creating situations in which the Karma's actions were more or less effective. > Current Karma loses that defense from shield ult when she opts for the fireball ult, which is much different than "Oh, Karma gave a shield and damage but we didn't really need damage in that scenario." Then find situations, in which you need both. This creates (created) a clear differences between good and great Karmas. > I'm really not seeing where the "interesting" aspect to this comes in, honestly. You are describing to me two ultimates which have a survivability and damage component to them while not really providing any interesting tradeoffs Some people just enjoy champions that can alternate between helping and hurting. Karma used to be this champion for league and they basically removed her. But if you start thinking about the combination of spells, you might have an easier time seeing it: It's that you could double down your shield-damage spell with your other damage spell, for two offensive spells, or your damage-heal spell for a shield and a heal on a target. But you had weird and unusual tools of applying them. Also I don't get why people didn't see the tradeoffs in deciding between those 3: * unreliable long range Aoe damage, double procs and a slow * semi reliable single target damage, and strong selfheal * reliable, but restricted AoE damage with team speedup/shields You didn't only have to think about WHAT to choose, but HOW you could apply it and make it effective. > I understand the want to eat your cake and still have it, but that's more from a player perspective than a designer perspective Don't insult me. > If you find Sion boring because he's an undead brute, that's because he's an undead brute. You can find Brand boring because he's just a fire guy, and that's fine, because that's what he is. There is a difference between archetypes and stereotypes. The trick is to have recognizeable patterns, so people can relate, but also something unusual or new, which stereotypes lack. > I find it weird that people get caught up in "personal expression" in a game with 5 different roles and 130 champions Because, for some reason, people are less and less defined over the champion they main, than the role they play. Also, having some funky, offmeta builds is fun. Just because it shows your favourite champions in a weird and new way. It's probably also partly exploration, which comes into this. Probably only the transition is boring. From having few champions that have a lot of ways to be played, to having a lot of champions in basically one way to be played. I am just trying to highlight concerns of mine. And also trying to highlight why League isn't as interesting as it used to. The sense of adventure is gone. Adventures in seeing new builds, new metas, new ways of thinking. Now they get starved by the rare release every few months, instead of whenever they played... Anways, I critisized your redesigns a lot. For fairness sake, you should have a swing at mine; Here are my best received Karma reworks so far. * [Karma can double Mantra spells](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jpxfF5r0-a-modern-karma-with-two-mantra-charges) * [Shortranged fan wielding Karma](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jlwYrQAE-how-to-bring-karmas-fans-back-to-her)
>This was the exact point of the bars? Where do you get from that I want them to "just be pretty"??? It sometimes feels like you aren't even answering to the things I wrote... Oh, sorry if I miscommunicated what I meant, there. It's not that I thought your tertiary resource meter was simply an ~aesthetic~ component, but rather, that the visual gave less actionable gameplay information than it needed to, considering it was affected by damage done to all nearby allies AND Karma (something closer to being appropriate would have to exist on all champions that would contribute to this meter, and the mechanic itself would still likely have to be more focused than "Karma gets benefits when you hurt allies within X units of her"). >You make Karma's solo lane boring on purpose, to force her into the support role? I don't think many Karma players will appreciate that. Or any, as far as I know. Any champion that brings value to their team by adding power onto other champions must consequently be weaker on their own - when they aren't you get champions like Lulu (and old Soraka) who get the best of both worlds and hurt the game because of it. That, and it's not that her solo lane is simply "boring," it's that it's largely inefficient. Whatever gold you do get would be better spent on a champion who doesn't have Support-tier gold independence (since supports can't both thrive in a no-CS duo lane situation *and* scale really well with purchased stats), and unlike a fighter/mage/assassin whose power is mostly focused on themselves, supports have no-one else to put their power onto and can "not lose" their lane at best. It's the ultimate low risk/low reward. >Compared to Soraka, Karma wouldn't need to poke to keep her ADC alive. She would let him auto-win any trade and stay all the way back. There is no reason to expose her. This is exactly the reason why Soraka was reworked. Except, since she's at full health and not risking anything, she's getting 0 value out of her passive...which is fine, and she can make that low risk/reward decision, but that'll ultimately mean she won't be "auto-winning" anything since her damage and heals will be less effective (especially in the early game/laning phase). >Does she? Why? Just leave the crest on the most likely target? Just having it on, say, your Tristana (who you want to not die) means that you'll be missing on all the effectiveness you'd get from putting it on Malphite - which also puts you closer to their frontline. Just having it on Malphite (who is currently getting hit a lot) means that you're leaving Tristana wide-open. Especially in team scenarios, there's never any "right answer" for the entire fight, and part of her gameplay mastery would involve knowing who to mark at the right time, who to use Mantra effects on and when, etc. Against her, it's entirely possible to make a feint, "initiating" on a target she reflexively moves the crest to before spending your burst on someone else. This is why I'm so adamant about her counter-aggression being focused on only one target at a time, rather than blanketed across her entire team. >And Heimer's CC does damage too? You also just CC'ed someone. You perfectly used all of it, while Karma could use half of one ability. And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal? Isn't this the same thing as forcing Heimer to CC, but his damage would've been more useful? Heimer's CC does much, *much* less damage than his actual damage ability, because its CC is fairly strong and his actual damage ability has no CC whatsoever. And like I said, CC isn't equally useful in every scenario, and neither is damage. For instance, Heimer using his damage when it's not enough to finish off the Vi diving him rather than burning his CC to give his tank enough time to peel, or using CC on someone about to grab a Thresh lantern and only delaying them whereas going with damage would've killed them outright. With Karma, however, "And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal" is a moot point if I remember old Karma's kit correctly, because that cone AoE both damaged *and* healed. It would be a more engaging decision if she had to choose between damage and healing, rather than throwing out her heal and going "ah, well, here's also some damage." >It was more about making many decisions in short time, which can have different effectivenes-levels. Which enemies could partake in, by creating situations in which the Karma's actions were more or less effective. Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. Its highest point for the player just ends up being less satisfying, while their opponent's maximum satisfaction is diminished to "Well, I kind of forced her to use a slightly less effect-efficient version of one of her mantras..." Compare that to dodging an Ashe arrow or forcing Tahm to pop his E and waddle out of the fight. Ashe gets to feel really good about that 3 second stun while Tahm can stick around forever if he manages his engagements carefully, while their opponents get to feel cool about temporarily taking a tool away from their opponent through skilled play. >Then find situations, in which you need both. This creates (created) a clear differences between good and great Karmas. And again, this is also the scenario that made her opponents not feel great. At worst, Karma kills one bird with one stone, but in these scenarios you describe, her opponents just have to kind of deal with all the tools Karma has without having to really give up anything. You can only ever force her to be less efficient, which limits their agency (in a competitive game!) while making some Karma players feel kind of clever. >Some people just enjoy champions that can alternate between helping and hurting. Karma used to be this champion for league and they basically removed her. > >But if you start thinking about the combination of spells, you might have an easier time seeing it: It's that you could double down your shield-damage spell with your other damage spell, for two offensive spells, or your damage-heal spell for a shield and a heal on a target. But you had weird and unusual tools of applying them. > >Also I don't get why people didn't see the tradeoffs in deciding between those 3: > >unreliable long range Aoe damage, double procs and a slow >semi reliable single target damage, and strong selfheal >reliable, but restricted AoE damage with team speedup/shields >You didn't only have to think about WHAT to choose, but HOW you could apply it and make it effective. I wouldn't really describe old Karma as a champion that alternated between helping and hurting, but rather as a champion that both helps and hurts, because she's Karma. Being able to choose between helping and hurting (and being able to choose wrong) is what allows that "help" and "hurt" to be meaningfully powerful, rather than nigh omnipresent or sometimes vaguely unoptimized. >Don't insult me. I'm not insulting you, although I probably didn't phrase myself the best way there. Rather, I understand you found something about a character that had a very strong impact on you (in this case, it seems to be "feeling wise" about getting the most out of a multi-faceted ability, finding situations where its uses overlap), but this thing as it was implemented was not healthy for the game. As players, we're more focused on what makes us feel good, but as a designer, I need to make sure that my opponent has opportunities to feel good as well. >There is a difference between archetypes and stereotypes. The trick is to have recognizeable patterns, so people can relate, but also something unusual or new, which stereotypes lack. Again, not everything needs to have a secret compartment or pleasant surprise. Xerath doesn't need to show us that he has a secret heart of gold by healing his teammates, when the core of his character is about power. Ashe doesn't need to smack people with her bow because she needs to show us she's tougher than she looks. It's fine for a character to be "just a brute" or "just a mage," because these are things that people like. It's good to have characters that are unique through a novel blend of themes ("Space Dragon," "Catfish Chauffeur," "Ninja Tank"), but it's also ultimately important that they are faithful to those themes rather than being surprising for the sake of being surprising. Having a random unexpected thing on every champion may cause them to be more interesting to some, but it will end up turning League into a homework assignment where players must memorize what out-of-the-blue things 130 different characters do. They'd also ultimately feel less "unique" because they aren't juxtaposed with champions that play their archetype straight. >Because, for some reason, people are less and less defined over the champion they main, than the role they play. Also, having some funky, offmeta builds is fun. Just because it shows your favourite champions in a weird and new way. It's probably also partly exploration, which comes into this. > >Probably only the transition is boring. From having few champions that have a lot of ways to be played, to having a lot of champions in basically one way to be played. I am just trying to highlight concerns of mine. And also trying to highlight why League isn't as interesting as it used to. The sense of adventure is gone. Adventures in seeing new builds, new metas, new ways of thinking. Now they get starved by the rare release every few months, instead of whenever they played... I think the core of this is "the excitement of exploration," which is not only expressed (or most richly expressed) through weird builds. Ideally, exploration should be more about seeing how 5 unique characters interact, rather than how much more you can heal yourself as AP Yi. Bringing up DotA2 as an example, people are more likely to remember that cool moment where someone figured out you could hook someone back to your fountain with a Chen/Pudge combo, rather than that one time Puck took Item X over Item Y.
: > The bars only solve part of the puzzle. The other one is one that Hecarim's self-heal illustrated as a pretty big problem a while ago: in a game like LoL, it's pretty hard to make decisions based on damage you aren't involved in. You just talked about conveying it visually. Gameplay and counterplay is something different. However, when talking about decisions based on damage you are not involvied in: Similar things would apply to your crest in a sololane. > Even if you think otherwise, having a big floating crest over the head of the person you don't want to attack creates a much more immediately clear gameplay experience Unless it's in a sololane, because then Karma will permanently have the crest and counterdamage for free. Compared to the passive I propose, it doesn't give Karma windows of power (asking her to retaliate immediately), but just keeps giving more and more power to her. As an enemy you have the opportunity to poke her down and never let her reach high amounts of AP from the passive, or predict her retaliation accordingly. What's to do against a crest that auto-redirects damage to you and could even deal 100 damage on lvl1 AND throw back a whole ability? What kind of counterplay do enemies have to that? In a sololane there is noone else to attack... > Shields aren't the only form of damage mitigation, thankfully - the ability to block one instance of damage can potentially be better than any shield if timed right And can potentially be a lot worse against Rumble ultimates, or in teamfights in general. I didn't say you have no ways of damage mitigation, but shields and instant heals allow you to control your hp _better_. > Worst-case scenario for the Karma player is that they have to deal with the fact that they got the full use out of one underwhelming mechanic instead of two. So you do think Karma's hand can be forced by creating a situation in which she must use her shield in a defensive way and not allowing her to utilize the offensive part of it? I mean, if you forced old Karma to use her shield and heal, she couldn't use the shieldbomb offensively? If you forced modern Karma to RW, she can't use RQ and RE? > I think you may be putting a bit too much stock into that ultimate, when it's really just a vessel for her other abilities. I think Riot does. It used to be a clever secondary resource that opened up different rortations. Of course it's boring if it just gives you more of a boring base ability. This is why nobody would've minded Old Karma being gone if her RQ would've dealt more damage and RE would've healed the target too. > I think my solution earlier would be to have Sion swing wildly in front of himself for a few seconds, reducing frontal damage while also damaging enemies in front of him with each swing. For some reason I find Sion to be more boring if all he offers thematically is "undead brute" and the bloodshield is gone. In terms of gameplay I would prefer your propositions though. > "You can build different stats!" isn't very compelling gameplay As far as I've seen, most successful games have a way of showing your personality. Like "this is how I do it, and only I". In the beginning of league you were identified by the champion you mained and played. Today you are mainly identified by the role you play, which too turns some people off. Of course, you can still invest a lot of time in a champion and just become good at him, but it's not quite the same today. I guess, with more item diversity, this wouldn't be too bad either, but I think there is a crucial difference between item diversity and room for personal expression. > It's all about "windowed" effectiveness. Current Garen doesn't want to fight all the time, because he has to back off to heal. Redesign!Garen doesn't want to fight all the time, because his effectiveness drops off after a few seconds I've seen current Garen stay very long in fights too, because he becomes so tanky with his W. But his passive makes him ready for fights more often. I prefer many engagements and skirmishing over one big fight, which you seem to agree to most of the time anyways?
>You just talked about conveying it visually. Gameplay and counterplay is something different. However, when talking about decisions based on damage you are not involvied in: Similar things would apply to your crest in a sololane. Except, visual indicators aren't just there to look pretty! The point of having stuff like Jhin's ammo count or Darius's floating bleed stacks are to give allies and opponents an idea of what your capabilities are (ex. someone who has 3 bleed stacks might want to back off before they get 5). This ties in pretty well with your next point, as with the crest, it's an in-game visual that provides opponents with a clear indicator of your capabilities (don't attack the person with the crest vs. don't attack anyone near Karma except maybe when she already has full pips or doesn't have any). Solo lane problem has also been addressed in the previous post I think, insofar as you would have no real reason to attack a Karma in a solo lane so all she'd be accomplishing is allowing you to freefarm. Karma's a duo-lane champion because she can discourage you from attacking someone you absolutely do want to attack (the marksman who will destroy you if they get to freefarm) at the cost of leaving herself open, leading to risk/reward scenarios or one where you could bait her into protecting herself and leaving her marksman open. >Unless it's in a sololane, because then Karma will permanently have the crest and counterdamage for free. Compared to the passive I propose, it doesn't give Karma windows of power (asking her to retaliate immediately), but just keeps giving more and more power to her. >As an enemy you have the opportunity to poke her down and never let her reach high amounts of AP from the passive, or predict her retaliation accordingly. What's to do against a crest that auto-redirects damage to you and could even deal 100 damage on lvl1 AND throw back a whole ability? What kind of counterplay do enemies have to that? In a sololane there is noone else to attack... I can understand why you would jump to this conclusion (killing enemy champions is good!), but Karma is one of the lowest-priority champions on her own. As a support, she easily benefits the least from gold (low gold dependence/efficiency), so as long as you aren't also a support, you win the lane simply by farming as much as she does...which should be easy, because all she can do is pap you with her baby-weak autos. On her own she has no poke, no waveclear, no utility, no real way to benefit from you not attacking her...at worst it's a boring lane for both parties, but Karma has literally no reason to go solo considering all of her actual usefulness lies in augmenting champions who can already do things on their own. >And can potentially be a lot worse against Rumble ultimates, or in teamfights in general. I didn't say you have no ways of damage mitigation, but shields and instant heals allow you to control your hp better. If she were to control her HP so universally (ie. not really having to read the situation or make split-second decisions in order to stay alive), she wouldn't be allowed to be so scary at low HP. Since she already discourages burst damage pretty hard, giving her massive burst survavability would be both redundant and make it hard to play around a high-impact counterattack. I guess in more straightforward terms, she's rewarded with sustained healing and damage mitigation (which are more powerful overall than burst because you can die before you get the full effect) if she's able to discourage burst damage, which she is good at. If she constantly leaves herself open - which she needs to do to support her allies - she runs the risk of taking burst she can't slap away. Having some sort of burst survivability (the strongest of which is a shield because it is temporary) would mean that she'd be allowed to have her cake and eat it too, giving her opponents very few "right" options. >So you do think Karma's hand can be forced by creating a situation in which she must use her shield in a defensive way and not allowing her to utilize the offensive part of it? > >I mean, if you forced old Karma to use her shield and heal, she couldn't use the shieldbomb offensively? >If you forced modern Karma to RW, she can't use RQ and RE? The thing is, as I said in the bit you're replying to, Karma gets full use out of *some* part of that ability regardless (even if she shields a full-health ally and the shield isn't scratched, she could have still dealt damage), rather than being allowed to make the mistake of contributing something that isn't vital to a fight (Heimer being forced to use a low-damage/high-CC ult in a scenario where damage is much more important than CC). Old Karma has a real hard time making mistakes, since chances are the situation is going to call for offense or defense and two of her ults give both of those things in fairly even portions. Current Karma loses that defense from shield ult when she opts for the fireball ult, which is much different than "Oh, Karma gave a shield and damage but we didn't really need damage in that scenario." >I think Riot does. It used to be a clever secondary resource that opened up different rortations. Of course it's boring if it just gives you more of a boring base ability. This is why nobody would've minded Old Karma being gone if her RQ would've dealt more damage and RE would've healed the target too. I'm really not seeing where the "interesting" aspect to this comes in, honestly. You are describing to me two ultimates which have a survivability and damage component to them while not really providing any interesting tradeoffs. I understand the want to eat your cake and still have it, but that's more from a player perspective than a designer perspective (as a player, I think it would be great if ulting early as Darius still gave me the reset, but it's allowed to be powerful by design because I have to choose between less damage that I know I can do right now and more damage that I might not be able to do at all - same case with Tahm's Q). >For some reason I find Sion to be more boring if all he offers thematically is "undead brute" and the bloodshield is gone. In terms of gameplay I would prefer your propositions though. If you find Sion boring because he's an undead brute, that's because he's an undead brute. You can find Brand boring because he's just a fire guy, and that's fine, because that's what he is. It's like opening a carton of chocolate chunk icecream and going, "Man, this would be better if it were Cherry Garcia..." If it says "chocolate chunk" on the carton, that should be exactly what you get, because some people actually *like* that flavor (I know, right?). And the thing is, that's okay! Something doesn't have to be crazy unique for it to be good, and sometimes a dude just wants to play League so they can hit people with their axe really, really hard. Darius seems to still provide a compelling experience even though he's not shooting fireballs out of his ass! >As far as I've seen, most successful games have a way of showing your personality. Like "this is how I do it, and only I". In the beginning of league you were identified by the champion you mained and played. Today you are mainly identified by the role you play, which too turns some people off. Of course, you can still invest a lot of time in a champion and just become good at him, but it's not quite the same today. > >I guess, with more item diversity, this wouldn't be too bad either, but I think there is a crucial difference between item diversity and room for personal expression. I find it weird that people get caught up in "personal expression" in a game with 5 different roles and 130 champions. Your personal expression should be "I love protecting my friends, which is why I play Braum," or "I'm a fun-loving show-off, watch me catch 12 axes at once as Draven" - if players aren't feeling this way already, then the roster itself isn't as diverse as it should be (which Riot has already acknowledged as a problem, hence reworks). Personally, I think expressing yourself by playing a champion whose personality and gameplay strongly resonate with who you are as a person, leads to a more compelling experience than expressing yourself by building AP on Trynd. >I've seen current Garen stay very long in fights too, because he becomes so tanky with his W. But his passive makes him ready for fights more often. I prefer many engagements and skirmishing over one big fight, which you seem to agree to most of the time anyways? Yeah, I completely agree that Garen should be more about tactical skirmishes than drawn-out brawls! I just think he should do that because he can shove all of his power into a ~5 second window, rather than because he can run off between fights and regenerate all his health. "Nonono pls dont hit me im tryin 2 heal ;_;" doesn't really seem very Garen!
: > Main reason I don't do something like this is, "Karma is more dangerous at low HP" is a bit more readable than "Karma is temporarily more dangerous based on some amount of health both her and her allies have lost." I use 3 bars next to her hp/mana to represent this. Should be as understandable or even more so than the crests thingy. > Also, old Karma didn't work well with "berserker scaling" because there wasn't really anything in her kit that allowed her to thrive at low health More damage, better shielding, missing%hp heal? Erm, I would call this thriving, very much so. Getting there was the other thing, though. > Redesign!Karma should feel a bit better about getting hit. As far as I've seen, without instant heals or shields, controlling your hp at low health seems to be very hard though. So yes, better for getting hit, but worse staying at low hp, which your proposed passive promotes. > As for lore implications, in a pinch, I will more often than not push these to the wayside considering League is a game first and foremost, and that the out-of-game narrative exists as a supplement to gameplay. I was just saying it probably should be something else than her crest, which it could easily be. An indicator similar to Tahm's fish or Braum's... whatever, seems fitting. > I also really, really like designing supports and can/will turn just about every champion into one. : P Wouldn't wanna stop you there :D. I love supportive characters. > So having Mantra on Karma increase her spell effects is important because she can decide that she needs to make an offensive play or a defensive one, This is why Old Karma's mantra allowed her not only to change a spells use, but a whole spell rotation. Depending on her mantra she would have **damage-slow-damage** or **heal-speed-shield**. I never thought these weren't meaningful choices, neither did I think that including the decision "can I guarantee a propperly placed shieldbomb" into my consideration of what to mantra. Also about meaningful choices, when giving someone both, shield and damage: Just for a short mindgame, imagine a shield being 80% effective, compared to others, with an added AoE, that has 80% of the usual damage of an AoE. Now in most situations you could use one or the other, to yield a subpar ability, but the flexibility makes up for some things. And sometimes, you would be able to use a spell at 160% effectiveness, compared to other abilities. Now, if this happens to happen around 1 in 4 cases, you have 80-80-80-160 -> 400% effectiveness in 4 casts, so the same as other 100% effectiveness abilities. But you feel clever for finding these situations in which the other part isn't wasted, even though you are expected to. But having an ability that scales with your cleverness is actually...quite clever itself and fitting of a champion designed around wisdom :). And, again, this seems like meaningful choices, to be honest (because sometimes taking the 80% effectiveness in a good situation is better than 160% effectiveness in a bad situation). > you still press it when you just want to do a stronger version of what that ability does. This is exactly what I and many other Karma mains find currently boring about her :-/ Currently, so many other champions do this, and Karma appears to be all about her mantra. So it being like all the others just feels wrong, when it used to be so much more (one root of her complexity, decision making and way of showing propper Karma mastery). > It's not that Sion shouldn't explode, it's that he could be doing something so much cooler instead, As I wrote to Yaime, I think this depends a lot on what exactly you would replace it with. Just saying _"something cooler"_ makes it too easy for me to agree, but I wanna stay sceptical until I actually see something I would prefer for sure. > "should they want to watch it just because they've happened to play it, or should watching it be able to inspire people to play?" I wasn't sucked in be the competitive aspect of it, but because I wanted to learn about all the different champions (before even seeing a full game). I am probably not that representative of the population, though :-/. How did you get sucked in? Or the majority of players, for that matter? > Watching League should be more like watching these diverse and interesting characters duke it out, and less like watching bundles of mechanics fulfill technical roles better than their opponents. I mean, they are colorful either way. I am also a bit unsure whether certain characters also limits the creativity behind certain playstyles... like players building certain champs differently, a very strong factor in early League (AP/AD ez? early nidalee? AP/AD sion?). Something I too enjoy, which I somehow miss in your updates and recent reworks. But your reworks are for another game, essentially, so I could be wrong. > This can be done without encouraging him to sit in brush all day I don't see any mechanic in this redesign, that would fill a particularly better role than just plain more resistances in fight. Or something that people can play around as well as someone who can just fight more often, instead of just longer. I would probably prefer him to be an "often" tank, instead of a "very sturdy" one. It seems to make sense to me, apparantly you two dislike this ._. > "We were trying to find a place for it for a while and it made sense on a point-blank AoE mage" I think, in the beginning Riot just tried to use kits that could make some kind of sense, thematically, but more working from a "what abilities are even possible/thinkable" perspective, rather than from the perspective we can look at it today. A lot have changed, and I have the very strong feeling, Riot is learning and improving a lot. But I also feel that learning as a company takes considerably longer than learning as a person. Or than certain personalities, at least. Because you gotta get everyone in the team on the same page again, which consumes a lot of time, especially in a growing company. Am I rambling again? I think so. > So is Yaime! He... wait....what? But.... is this just his secondary acc for NA?
>I use 3 bars next to her hp/mana to represent this. Should be as understandable or even more so than the crests thingy. The bars only solve part of the puzzle. The other one is one that Hecarim's self-heal illustrated as a pretty big problem a while ago: in a game like LoL, it's pretty hard to make decisions based on damage you aren't involved in. In Hecarim's case, it's mainly about his self-heal being really hard to optimize, while it seems that from what I know about your Karma's case, it's about not having a "right choice" when it comes to who to damage. Even if you think otherwise, having a big floating crest over the head of the person you don't want to attack creates a much more immediately clear gameplay experience than "maybe don't attack Karma or anyone near her unless maybe if her pips are all the way filled or maybe if they're not filled up yet??" >More damage, better shielding, missing%hp heal? Erm, I would call this thriving, very much so. Getting there was the other thing, though. Those were more tools that she happened to have, but their overall general usefulness (especially with "stronger at lower health" being largely expressed through AP scaling, which can't be as strong or noticeable as a tertiary scaling effect since you can simply buy it) was pretty limited. Redesign Karma gets a lot more bang for her buck when she's under fire, because she gets stronger from both being at low health *and* taking hits (which is what would bring her to low health). >As far as I've seen, without instant heals or shields, controlling your hp at low health seems to be very hard though. So yes, better for getting hit, but worse staying at low hp, which your proposed passive promotes. Shields aren't the only form of damage mitigation, thankfully - the ability to block one instance of damage can potentially be better than any shield if timed right, and the power of that counterattack with the bonus AP she gets should be enough to benefit from the aggression she doesn't outright discourage, unless she's just in a really bad position (where the "risk" part of the "risk/reward" manifests). A staggered heal is also allowed to be a bit stronger than one you get all at once, and is especially useful when Karma puts the fear of god into people when it comes to throwing burst damage at her - unless they're really eager to have it thrown right back in their face, anyway! >But you feel clever for finding these situations in which the other part isn't wasted, even though you are expected to. But having an ability that scales with your cleverness is actually...quite clever itself and fitting of a champion designed around wisdom :). And, again, this seems like meaningful choices, to be honest (because sometimes taking the 80% effectiveness in a good situation is better than 160% effectiveness in a bad situation). Unfortunately, while you may be able to see the cleverness in it, that sort of mechanic most often manifests in false options and strategic stifling. The player gets two vague answers to situations that call for multiple things (ally is dying, enemies are not dying fast enough) rather than getting to feel good and smart about reading the situation well and making the "right" choice, while their opponent sees a situation where they have no ability to force your hand in some way or another. Compare to Heimer seeing a situation that calls for both damage and CC (since both of those tend to be pretty useful) and realizing that damage is much more important, or his opponent not wanting to let him throw damage at their team and getting rewarded for forcing him to blow his ult on CC in self-defense instead. Worst-case scenario for the Karma player is that they have to deal with the fact that they got the full use out of one underwhelming mechanic instead of two. >This is exactly what I and many other Karma mains find currently boring about her :-/ Currently, so many other champions do this, and Karma appears to be all about her mantra. So it being like all the others just feels wrong, when it used to be so much more (one root of her complexity, decision making and way of showing propper Karma mastery). I think you may be putting a bit too much stock into that ultimate, when it's really just a vessel for her other abilities. Since her other abilities right now are pretty boring, her ult is consequently boring - I doubt her ulted Q right now would be more interesting if its explosion did less damage so it could heal allies. >As I wrote to Yaime, I think this depends a lot on what exactly you would replace it with. Just saying "something cooler" makes it too easy for me to agree, but I wanna stay sceptical until I actually see something I would prefer for sure. I think my solution earlier would be to have Sion swing wildly in front of himself for a few seconds, reducing frontal damage while also damaging enemies in front of him with each swing. It would be a brute-force way of defending himself (and one that demands aggression, since it's useless while running away), and it also plays a lot better with his other abilities since they can be used to maximize its offensive power (his shield also does this partially due to the delay before it can be popped, but that ends up being watered down since he can just shield a few seconds before walking up to you rather than having to deal with the consequence of using it in combat). There are plenty of other solutions, of course, but there's also the point that any ability that employs brute force, on Sion, would be a cooler and more appropriate alternative than anything that does not. You don't play as Ryze so you can hit people with a stick, after all. >I mean, they are colorful either way. I am also a bit unsure whether certain characters also limits the creativity behind certain playstyles... like players building certain champs differently, a very strong factor in early League (AP/AD ez? early nidalee? AP/AD sion?). Something I too enjoy, which I somehow miss in your updates and recent reworks. But your reworks are for another game, essentially, so I could be wrong. "You can build different stats!" isn't very compelling gameplay, and I have a strong feeling that people become so attached to stuff like AP Trynd because either A) regular Trynd isn't that interesting to start with, or B) no other champion provides the gameplay experience that AP Trynd does. My goal is to create a roster so diverse that this is no longer an issue, so slapping AP values onto things for no reason isn't something I make a habit of doing. As for items, they should be more about strategic options than stats. ZZ'Rot and Randuin's are both tank items, yet they fulfill very different purposes and create very different playstyles. Champions should have a lot of decisions to make while simply building within their role, which I also feel that League doesn't do as well as it could. >I don't see any mechanic in this redesign, that would fill a particularly better role than just plain more resistances in fight. Or something that people can play around as well as someone who can just fight more often, instead of just longer. I would probably prefer him to be an "often" tank, instead of a "very sturdy" one. It seems to make sense to me, apparantly you two dislike this ._. It's all about "windowed" effectiveness. Current Garen doesn't want to fight all the time, because he has to back off to heal. Redesign!Garen doesn't want to fight all the time, because his effectiveness (damage, durability, sustain) drops off after a few seconds due to ability cooldowns and effect durations. The reason his W manifests durability through both defense *and* sustain, is that it gives him the possibility of coming out of a fight with more health than he had going in, if he's able to play decisively rather than savagely slugging it out like that no-good Demacian counterpart of his. >I think, in the beginning Riot just tried to use kits that could make some kind of sense, thematically, but more working from a "what abilities are even possible/thinkable" perspective, rather than from the perspective we can look at it today. A lot have changed, and I have the very strong feeling, Riot is learning and improving a lot. But I also feel that learning as a company takes considerably longer than learning as a person. Or than certain personalities, at least. Because you gotta get everyone in the team on the same page again, which consumes a lot of time, especially in a growing company. Am I rambling again? I think so. This is part of Riot's growing pains, and I fully acknowledge that I've only been able to learn so quickly from Riot's mistakes and successes because I'm doing it from an outside perspective. With Riot, it's a combination of not everybody working on every project, and not having a lot of time to look back on mistakes because there's always a new problem to break through.
: > And this would probably be a problem because she would not have defined strengths and weaknesses Karma didn't have hard CC. She had shields, heals and damage and a MS modifier. In most of my reworks I tried to keep her (hard) CC either tied to her ultimate, to very special conditions or removed it all together. Giving her opposites of two things doesn't mean you have to give her everything. > When her design would have more of this duality, I this would be more along the lines of a ''Yin-yang'' theme I wouldn't call thorns dualistic. Especially not permanent ones, considering this could be used in solo lanes and she would probably deal as much damage back as enemies with AA harass would deal. in the first place. This appears to be very boring or unfair, either way. I am having kind of a hard time answering, because I feel that I have to read all linked champion updates and understand all concepts behind them, before I can reply to you ._. And you use at least 3-4 of them every comment^^ > But the thing is, these unfitting abilities are all so less memorable and iconic because they don't make sense! I am sometimes not sure what needs to make sense in a game of magic. Most caster's abilities in Runeterra don't really get explained, so I guess magic is just something people use to a bigger or lesser extent. Probably even unvoluntarily. I don't know if I would rather remember a Sion with or without a bloodshield. I guess it depends on what exactly you would replace it with. I agree on Quinn's backflip though. > No, they'll probably get this excited when they spin2win the enemy to death, which is actually something very engaging. I personally enjoy charging into a fight, doing my things and stuffs... and repeat it 2 minutes later. Just spinning is nice, but thinking about when to engage is also interesting to me. And it becomes more often available lategame, no matter how I build. I guess Garen is a restless fighter, that fights a lot of battles in a war, instead of a single, bloody and glorious one, like Darius. > ItemsGuy is trying to make prolevel games as crazy and wild as summoner level 1 games! Maybe that's me, but I really like working on my build, adapting to the game and coming up with something that makes sense. Which I enjoy more than just the chaotic first few minutes if people keep getting caught. But hey, people enjoy different things after all. > Yet... if you were to create a game everyone could watch (such as my mom, right now, will probably see Zyra and think: ''oh, some lady that does ??? things with plants, whereas if she'd see the Redesign Zyra in action she'd actually be like: hey! she's quite the gardener! I am still sceptical about whether we can remove ALL hurdles from your everyday life's person to watch this without prior knowledge. I have to think about MY mum, and I just can't imagine it. I mean, there is violence in there and how can violence be good, this is stupid, yadayada.... And even if you are open to all of this, I think you still have to learn what particles go to which champion, what they mean and following 10 characters you don't know is pretty confusing too. It's not that I am against the idea of having the game more... well... intuitive to watch, but I am not yet convinced it's something achieveable, or worth sacrificing other things over. > Just as all those ''free mana (costs)'' passives, like Lissandra passive. Oh boy, that's really one stupid passive right there. I mean, it's interesting from a gameplay perspective, but thematically? Does Lissandra want to think about how to spend her powers carefully? I don't think so... > Gonna continue in another comment, otherwise wouldn't be able to finish due to character count! I've never reached max characters with anybody before, lol. Anyways, tackling ItemsGuy now.
Gonna help respond to this one since it covers a lot of design stuff~ >Karma didn't have hard CC. She had shields, heals and damage and a MS modifier. In most of my reworks I tried to keep her (hard) CC either tied to her ultimate, to very special conditions or removed it all together. Giving her opposites of two things doesn't mean you have to give her everything. It's not necessarily just about tools here, it's about working towards a goal. Old Karma just kind of had "stuff" that she could use to fulfill the support role (Nami is also a really big offender in this regard), and in cases where a Mantra cast would give her two very different tools simultaneously, she got a lot of stuff at once. With abilities, you add costs in order to allow them to be both powerful and healthy. Mana costs, limited range, skill shots, delays/travel times, mechanical prerequisites...these are a lot of the tools used to add cost to abilities, but another important one is a cost of purpose. For instance, Heimerdinger's ult works very similarly to Karma's, but with it he gets to double down on one effect (lots of missiles, huge CC, or a tough zone control turret)...but if they all just kind of did a mix of things, they wouldn't be allowed to be or feel all that powerful. Taking two of old Karma's mantra effects into account, you could either heal and damage in a cone, or shield and damage in an AoE around a target - with the raw mix of offensive and defensive capabilities, the difference between the two ultimates becomes less pronounced, which just ends up running the risk of neither having much choice behind it (especially if one just ends up being a better or more convenient mix of offense and defense than the other). By forcing the player to decide between several very different effects, they get to make a much more meaningful choice in the long run, and one that their allies and opponents can better engage with. >I wouldn't call thorns dualistic. Especially not permanent ones, considering this could be used in solo lanes and she would probably deal as much damage back as enemies with AA harass would deal. in the first place. This appears to be very boring or unfair, either way. It would be much less potent in solo lanes, considering her opponent really wouldn't have any reason to attack her, so her contribution would be largely limited and her opponent would essentially get free farm. In a duo lane scenario, she gets to put them on her carry, who can not only do things on their own, but who also happens to be a really high-priority target. Then, of course, she leaves herself open, and her opponent can create a "just kill the medic" scenario like with current Soraka. It's why having that locus of retribution is important, rather than just letting her punish all aggression all the time. >I am sometimes not sure what needs to make sense in a game of magic. Most caster's abilities in Runeterra don't really get explained, so I guess magic is just something people use to a bigger or lesser extent. Probably even unvoluntarily. I don't know if I would rather remember a Sion with or without a bloodshield. I guess it depends on what exactly you would replace it with. In "just a game of magic," nothing has to make sense. In a fast-paced and competitive game of magic with over 130 characters (and 10 at once in every game), *everything* needs to make sense. Magic, then, is just a convenient device that lets cooler versions of things happen (Zyra's plants are much cooler and decidedly more magical than regular plants), or something that gives form to an abstract concept (Bard using his magic to wander around the map). And the thing about Sion's exploding shield is that it has to be explained to you with terms that only exist in Runeterra - as abstract as Twisted Fate's magic may be, it's pretty easy to understand that he throws magic cards, and that he can shuffle through his hand to find the one he wants much like one would do in a traditional card game (he can even use his magic to "cheat" by revealing the enemy team's hand, so to speak). >I personally enjoy charging into a fight, doing my things and stuffs... and repeat it 2 minutes later. Just spinning is nice, but thinking about when to engage is also interesting to me. And it becomes more often available lategame, no matter how I build. I guess Garen is a restless fighter, that fights a lot of battles in a war, instead of a single, bloody and glorious one, like Darius. I agree that having Darius and Garen exist as foils to one another is important, with one favoring bloody brawls and the other skirmishing and wearing his opponents down, but that should be more about action (choosing to fight when cooldowns are up) rather than inaction (hiding from the enemy while his boo-boos get better). Tying his regeneration to an in-combat window can tell players that he wants to keep fights short and to the point without making him seem like a sissy. >Maybe that's me, but I really like working on my build, adapting to the game and coming up with something that makes sense. Which I enjoy more than just the chaotic first few minutes if people keep getting caught. But hey, people enjoy different things after all. I think what he means is more along the lines of games being a bit less formulaic than they are now (since people don't get so caught up in that when they first start playing). So you *should* be adapting to the game and all the crazy stuff going on in it, rather than looking at a prescribed build and strategy because the pros have already "solved" this patch. >I am still sceptical about whether we can remove ALL hurdles from your everyday life's person to watch this without prior knowledge. I have to think about MY mum, and I just can't imagine it. I mean, there is violence in there and how can violence be good, this is stupid, yadayada.... > >And even if you are open to all of this, I think you still have to learn what particles go to which champion, what they mean and following 10 characters you don't know is pretty confusing too. It's not that I am against the idea of having the game more... well... intuitive to watch, but I am not yet convinced it's something achieveable, or worth sacrificing other things over. Of course it's not going to be quite as easy to get into as football or soccer, especially for our parents' generation - for ours, at least, it should be at least a bit easier to get caught up in once all the weird stuff is cleaned up and you can watch the game and understand that this fire guy is burning up the enemy team because the sad mummy boy has them all caught up in his bandages. Beyond that, you also don't have to worry about memorizing every ability when each champion's goal is defined, concise, and wrapped nicely with a thematic bow! And the sacrifices aren't only for the spectators, of course - my duty as a designer is to the players first and foremost. With that, I figure it would be a lot easier for newer players to stick with the game if the massive roster becomes less of a homework assignment for them, and I'm sure vets who are sick of the same song and dance every game would be excited about the prospect of a much broader and more vibrant strategic spectrum.
: > Sad thing is that two friends of mine whom I live with ended up commenting: _''Dude, if you had only asked us to help you, we would have.''_ And that would probably resulted in a much better video after all. I think it was Christopher Hitchens (a journalist), who said, that it's a shame that, you usually meet the people at your book presentations, that you should've met before writing the book in the first place. I guess that's the same thing with a lot of stuff. We probably just have to take the input we get and try to incorporate it into our next work. > And that, ultimately, was the point of the video! I was hoping that the information would out-weigh the things the video could drastically be improved upon! Glad that it seems to have worked for you :) I started disliking people using good rethoric over good content. Especially politicians are currently pissing me off. I only judge people based on their ideas and arguments, even though that I am aware, that this is not true for the broad masses. It makes me very conflicted when I try to adress the masses ._. > That said; do you like [Redesign Karma?](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html) **Short answer**: nyeos. **Long answer**: I have reworked Karma half a dozen times now and noted down the things people liked about her and some things about gameplay, that I need to avoid. Her old passive is one of them. I currently prefer the version, where she gains extra AP based on the hp she (and her allies) has/have lost in the last few seconds. This makes her more reactionary (punishing aggression) and doesn't encourage running around on low hp. Another thing, that I dislike is the readability of the crest (2 counters?) and the lore impications. Why would she pass around her crest? I know it's kind of a place holder for a beacon, but it's one of the first things I noticed. And also that you wanted her to be a support, and not a midlaner, as has been for years now (but I guess in your reworks you are targetting a different game than today). Lastly, and most importantly; I liked Karma for the duality in her (mantra'd) skills. Adding an opposite aspect, instead of just giving more of the same. A damage spell, that heals affected allies and a shield, that damages enemies (like, actively, not thorns). It gave her the flexibility she was known for, usually at cost of her power... unless you would find situations, in which both aspects could apply (healing multiple allies and enemies at the same time, shielding a core target and dealing damage, etc.) This also gave her the _"wise"_ element, in which you would have to know HOW to apply your spells a lot more, than you do now (well, how do I apply RQ's damage? in their faces, duh). Other than that, I like the overall idea and design, even though some minor details might be problematic. Like the crest only gaining stacks one way (you could let it get 1 stack each for switching targets, for example). This kind of allied based supporting is something that Orianna with her ball and Lulu with Pix just barely miss, thematically. I'd be lovely to have a champion succeeding on that. > Kind of a shame that Karma is pretty much a generic mage right now, the only thing that was really ''karmatic'' about her on her old design was her passive, granting her more exp if you screwed with her and lowered her pretty green health bars. And we both know that passive is gone, too. Well, there was a karmic aspect to her (I have been taught that _"karmatic"_ is wrong, apparently?), a dualistic and an enlightened aspect. Her ally-heal symbolized **good karma** (rewarding hardship), while her shieldbomb and passive represented **bad karma** (punish those preying the weak). **Dualism** was apparant in all her basic spells: damage/heal, speed/slow, shield/damage. Unlike Lulu, she could have both aspects at the same time, making it different from the western meaning of dualism (either/or) and highlighting more the _"understand the wholeness of all things"_ (embrace all) dualism in eastern culture. And lastly her **enlightenment** was symbolized by her mantra and lvl6 abilities. All of this made up Karma's old thematics, all borrowed from asian culture. That being said, I do agree, that her passive didn't quite encourage the kind of behaviour she should have. But her CURRENT passive does even less of it,.. > Fair enough. We'd prefer him to do something that makes him more durable in a brutish, undead warrior kind of way, instead of a magical way, and even though the ability, whether you like it or not, is going to harm the readability of the game because it will always remain a little random and confusing for an undead warrior, it wouldn't be _all that bad_ for keeping it on him for the community's sake. I am sometimes very conflicted with those things, because there also seem to be good arguments for keeping it. In a way, it has become his character, and some "odd" flavour to some designs make champions more interesting in the longrun. Or unique. Just another undead warrior, compared to an undead warrior with an exploding bloodshield? Or let me put it this way; there are a lot more problems that I see, that highlight this problem better, than Sion. Quinn's example was probably one of the best. > However, this actually becomes more of a problem the moment people are attached to things that actually conflict with how Riot wants the game to be; competitive and engaging. I am not sure about that, actually. Some person (gbay99?) once compared LoL to football/soccer. Because it's an everyman's sport, that can become competitive. People like watching it, because they used to play it, when they were younger. It's like your guitar example. Riot is currently trying, as seen by Manamune and Alistar-combo changes, to make competitive and the normal game more alike, instead of just making it more competitive/engaging. I guess making more people play a game, to understand it while watching, makes more sense when building on nerd culture, instead of building a game that everyone can watch (is that feasible?). > For example, a front-line fighter shouldn't want to hide in brushes to regenerate health. A front-line fighter should be in the frontline and be able to stay there for as long as possible, without having to pu$$y out and recharge as if he's some kind of battery. Isn't the argument here, that they wanted to give him the tools of going in, getting his head bashed in, running out, and having good incentives to reenagage as soon as possible? Basically reducing the downtime between his fights. I do agree, that this leads to some funny gameplay, like Bush-Garen. But I think this is also due to the fact, that Garen has problems with gapclosing... which he doesn't have if he can surprise someone. I think Riot's approach of readucing his downtime on higher levels and making him at least charge key targets, while nerfing his overall damage against everyone else, makes sense. Because he is less likely to just camp and jump _anyone_. Oh and Zyra's passive is an abomination in terms of gameplay. Thematically, it at least gets across, that Zyra isn't the person, but the plant. I reckon? But they want to change it in the mage update anyways. > similar to how instead of designing Lissandra around the concept/theme of ''Ice Mage'', they said ''We want her to be able to be an initiating mage'', and then gave her all the tools she needed to be able to do that I mean, at least they had learned, at that point, that champions don't only need a thematic character, but also an ingame one. But out of curiosity.... a "frozen" stun, a root, several slows and a heckton of damage. Isn't this what you'd expect from Lissandra? And isn't her ice-shard travelling trying to get across the way she usually moves.... like, ~~holiday~~ on ice? > PS: You seem nice. Feel free to add me! I'm on EUW :'( > Cheers, and hope ItemsGuy is going to give you a more detailled response in terms of new and old Karma! The more input I can get on my beloved Karma, the better :). Already working on my next rework, and two other posts, maybe this can enhance my view in terms of gameplay or broaden my horizon in terms of possibilities.
>I currently prefer the version, where she gains extra AP based on the hp she (and her allies) has/have lost in the last few seconds. This makes her more reactionary (punishing aggression) and doesn't encourage running around on low hp. Main reason I don't do something like this is, "Karma is more dangerous at low HP" is a bit more readable than "Karma is temporarily more dangerous based on some amount of health both her and her allies have lost." Also, old Karma didn't work well with "berserker scaling" because there wasn't really anything in her kit that allowed her to thrive at low health. Redesign!Karma should feel a bit better about getting hit. >Another thing, that I dislike is the readability of the crest (2 counters?) and the lore impications. Why would she pass around her crest? I know it's kind of a place holder for a beacon, but it's one of the first things I noticed. And also that you wanted her to be a support, and not a midlaner, as has been for years now (but I guess in your reworks you are targetting a different game than today). Readability of the crest would be through indicators in game - each part of the crest (which I imagine would have different colors as a proper Taijitu would, rather than both being green) would glow more with each charge, and gain a particle at full charge. As for lore implications, in a pinch, I will more often than not push these to the wayside considering League is a game first and foremost, and that the out-of-game narrative exists as a supplement to gameplay. Also, main reason she's a support rather than mage (as Old Karma was) is due to "counter-aggression" being much more meaningful from minute one when it's not just "don't damage me or it'll suck for you!" - in a duo lane, you'd have the opportunity to go after whoever doesn't have the crest, leaving more room for counterplay. I also really, really like designing supports and can/will turn just about every champion into one. : P >Lastly, and most importantly; I liked Karma for the duality in her (mantra'd) skills. Adding an opposite aspect, instead of just giving more of the same. A damage spell, that heals affected allies and a shield, that damages enemies (like, actively, not thorns). Thing is, while this might be somewhat colorful from a thematic standpoint, it's actually not great from a gameplay perspective. One thing that designers must try to create, regardless of game, regardless of genre, are these things called "meaningful choices" - since that's what introduces the idea of giving players real consequences for their actions. Hell, it's why people rag on Telltale games so often (and David Cage games are worse about this), because you can make all these decisions and still end up at the same destination. So having Mantra on Karma increase her spell effects is important because she can decide that she needs to make an offensive play or a defensive one, and even while Mantra Q still does a bit of both (prevents damage while reflecting it to enemies), you still press it when you just want to do a stronger version of what that ability does. Karma's flexibility and duality, then, comes from the fact that she has such distinct offensive and defensive capabilities on her kit, not that her high moments involve kind-of-sort-of a jumble of offensive and defensive power. > This kind of allied based supporting is something that Orianna with her ball and Lulu with Pix just barely miss, thematically. I'd be lovely to have a champion succeeding on that. I actually have [Lulu](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-lulu-fae-sorceress.html?q=lulu) doing a more manic and whimsical version of this (compared to Karma's gameplay, which requires careful decision-making and foresight), although [Orianna](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/03/champion-redesign-orianna-lady-of.html?q=orianna)'s a bit more of a clockwork ballet dancer now. >I am sometimes very conflicted with those things, because there also seem to be good arguments for keeping it. In a way, it has become his character, and some "odd" flavour to some designs make champions more interesting in the longrun. Or unique. Just another undead warrior, compared to an undead warrior with an exploding bloodshield? People might be used to the squeaky floorboards, or the bathroom doors that don't quite close all the way. They may have grown up in that house, but that's no reason not to fix it - although I do agree that certain iconic elements ([Nasus](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-nasus-curator-of-sands.html?q=nasus)'s Q, [Nunu](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-nunu-yeti-rider.html?q=nunu) being a counter-jungling devil) are what I try to build redesigns around when it doesn't sit at odds with game health. It's not that Sion shouldn't explode, it's that he could be doing something so much cooler instead, something that would become memorable for all the right reasons (like an "Undead Juggernaut" running halfway across the map to slam his body into your team). >I guess making more people play a game, to understand it while watching, makes more sense when building on nerd culture, instead of building a game that everyone can watch (is that feasible?). The question here becomes "should they want to watch it just because they've happened to play it, or should watching it be able to inspire people to play?" If League is something you can watch and get sucked into because of the larger-than-life iconic things a champion can do, the things that are so cool yet make *perfect sense*, I'd imagine that would be better than people just deciding to watch it because they already play the game. I can get into a soccer game because I understand what everyone is trying to do, and can recognize when something amazing happens. Imagine in League, instead of watching people Flash about and use their weird ults on each other, you see an amazing counter-initiation from a team with a Maokai who sinks in his roots and traps the entire enemy team in his forest? Or perhaps if you see Amumu pulling together an entire team for a big hug while Brand turns them into a bonfire? Watching League should be more like watching these diverse and interesting characters duke it out, and less like watching bundles of mechanics fulfill technical roles better than their opponents. >Basically reducing the downtime between his fights. This can be done [without encouraging him to sit in brush all day](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-might-of-demacia.html?q=garen) (and I may actually steal Tahm's grey health mechanic once I get around to reworking him, since it's also a mechanic that only rewards regeneration once you've actually stepped in to the fight instead of going from 10% health to full because you hid behind your tower for a while). >But out of curiosity.... a "frozen" stun, a root, several slows and a heckton of damage. Isn't this what you'd expect from Lissandra? And isn't her ice-shard travelling trying to get across the way she usually moves.... like, holiday on ice? All the CC in her kit makes sense (although her splintering skillshot sits at odd with her root and stun considering where she ideally wants to be positioned), and the last I remembered, ice doesn't really get around by teleporting to other ice. I'd love to find the actual post on the old forums, but I remember either Meddler's or Morello's reason behind that one ability was "We were trying to find a place for it for a while and it made sense on a point-blank AoE mage). >I'm on EUW So is Yaime!
Dengeden (EUW)
: I feel like I should elaborate on what I meant by risk-free. It's essentially that there's counterplay to counterplay. 1v1s shouldn't decide the game, so you get the options to sit back and farm, to lane swap, to 2v1, to roam, to teamfight and champs get a varying dependence on items. So it becomes a question of which of the above is slightly stronger than the others. There's still counterplay to them individually _but a good team will grind you out until that slight advantage evolves into a massive lead._ They'll rely on this strength, not take risks and win the game (in theory). Your redesigns somewhat (hopefully!) fix that because they give champions different tools to solve the same problem. Instead of Riot's approach which has been to give everyone very similar tools and see what they do differently with items. >(Not like I'm redesigning the entire item system as well, cough cough) WHERE? Do not deny me!! >Ideally, building defensively or offensively should have trade-offs. During the laning phase, they arguably do (even if the "defensive" option is often movespeed) have tradeoffs. However, if you don't know wether a champion what role a champion will play once you see both teams, you'll have a hard time dealing with him... but as long as both teams have that kind of flexibility, it shouldn't be a problem.
>WHERE? Do not deny me!! Haven't touched it in a while, but you can find it [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_g_Id9LXrLi_57gzktIf1k675MRMIN5tgfkgqnli6lY/edit). It's a bit muddy, but the goals are thus: -Create a crafting system that makes more sense than "turn a pickaxe into a big sword" -Have each item fulfill a strategic niche, rather than "you buy this every game because it gives good stats" -Tie every item to the world of the game in some way to allow them to be more iconic Might end up putting this in the League section of my portfolio as well, but I'm not sure if I want to advertise to Riot that I want to completely revamp their item system, Masteries, jungle, lanes, etc. too... : P
: > I think I had goosebumps during your video. Twice. This comment gave me goosebumps. I'm not joking. > I mean, the editing is quite bad, and reading from the desk makes you kind of un-immersive, This is what happens when I feel I have to kind of rush things because I get the feeling ''NOW REALLY IS THE TIME TO GET THIS OUT THERE!'' I'm not the best at editing, has been the first time again since years that I've made a video, and the first time ever I've made a video like this, actually, but yeah. As for me reading from the desk and sometimes looking down; this sucked, the script was too hard and too long, consisting out of too many tongue twisters if you had to be speaking as fast as I needed to, to not let the video drag on for much longer than for how long it already is. Sad thing is that two friends of mine whom I live with ended up commenting: ''Dude, if you had only asked us to help you, we would have.'' And that would probably resulted in a much better video after all. > but your points, man, your points were spot on. And that, ultimately, was the point of the video! I was hoping that the information would out-weigh the things the video could drastically be improved upon! Glad that it seems to have worked for you :) > > Aaaaand I was also in the video. Holy elo-hell, I did a thing and it was in a youtube video, I don't think I can handle that ("What's so Karma about Karma" was written by me). HOLY BALLS. I WAS ACTUALLY WONDERING IF SOMEONE WOULD AT SOME POINT NOTICE HIS POST AND BE LIKE: Hey! That was me! Now I hope we can both get even more proud and feel even more glorious by praying this video is going to blow up at some point. I mean, even 20k+ views would make me a very happy man. (sidejoke: roommate is going to get me a lil present if I get over 50k views within 6 months) That said; do you like [Redesign Karma?](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html) Back in the days when there were discussing what direction they needed to take with her we really tried our best to communicate things with the players on the forums as well with Riot. Can't say that it worked. Kind of a shame that Karma is pretty much a generic mage right now, the only thing that was really ''karmatic'' about her on her old design was her passive, granting her more exp if you screwed with her and lowered her pretty green health bars. And we both know that passive is gone, too. > Anyways, I mostly agree on your points, even though I disagree on a few smaller concepts. For example, Sion's shield. I think it's drastically harder to rework a champion, compared to when you create a new one. Because you always have to mind the original concept and try to not alienate the fans the character had. While I do agree that the magic shield was unnecessary or even weird, I think it's readable enough and fills a more fitting role. In a way I prefer Riot to slowly work towards what you describe, but still mind the identity of some characters. Fair enough. We'd prefer him to do something that makes him more durable in a brutish, undead warrior kind of way, instead of a magical way, and even though the ability, whether you like it or not, is going to harm the readability of the game because it will always remain a little random and confusing for an undead warrior, it wouldn't be _all that bad_ for keeping it on him for the community's sake. However, this actually becomes more of a problem the moment people are attached to things that actually conflict with how Riot wants the game to be; competitive and engaging. For example, a front-line fighter shouldn't want to hide in brushes to regenerate health. A front-line fighter should be in the frontline and be able to stay there for as long as possible, without having to pu$$y out and recharge as if he's some kind of battery. It's the same reason why Zyra's old passive is going to be removed; her old passive was a stand-a-lone feature on her kit, didn't really mash well with her other 4 abilities, and just only meant something to her when she died. However, these passives that trigger something on death should also be fitting on the character. [Such as an undead warrior rising up from the ground, forcing you to take him down once more](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-sion-undead-champion.html). [Or a barbarian going on for just a little longer than you'd actually want him to, before he greets Death and takes off with him.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-tryndamere-barbarian.html) But most importantly, it doesn't fit Zyra's play-pattern: she's all about dropping them AoE damage right now and she can't do that when she's dead, so it conflicts. Zyra has a passive that does something for her when she dies, which is something she's going to want to avoid at all costs anyway. Whereas with Redesign Tryndamere, ofcourse, you wouldn't want to die either, but his barbarian nature makes him want to get into the fray and risk it, going all-in, and even if he ends up falling, it still isn't the end of the world because he's able to go on for just a little longer which his character is all about besides that Redesign passive! So sure, arguably, if some designs or abilities would really have to be pardoned (this is more than a ''what if'' of course, instead of ''ItemsGuy and I would really support this decision), Sion's W would kind of be okay. However, as for things the players have grown attached to but just isn't really healthy for the game, such as health-regenerating brush Garen, those just can't really be pardoned. The kit of a champion should work towards one goal, and if Zyra should be about her plants and doing stuff with them/growing stuff with them, giving her a passive that allows her to do something when she dies probably isn't a very smart thing. All of Garen's abilities encourage him to be at the front-line,[ so his passive should to](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-might-of-demacia.html), this is all for making League of Legends a better game, even if this change would mean we'd have to say goodbye to brush Garen! > And this is where I adress my main point. I am one of the Karma mains, that were rather pissed off at the 5.10 changes (removal of shieldbomb), or as some Old Karma fan's called it "the murdering of the last aspect reminiscent of Karma". I feel a little sad sometimes I didn't really get to play old Karma (she was one of those champions for me that you just never saw and never touched yourself, like what Karma used to be to thousands of other players as well), but now taking her rework into account, I'm not so sure if I should be as sad about it. > You seem to be highly invested into gamedesign and probably as much in love with this game as I am (and even share some disgruntledness with recent design decisions). So, I would very humbly ask you for your opinion on Karma, in general and specifically on 5.10. I know you probably have better stuff to do. But then again, you too write walls of texts like me, and enjoy unhealthy doses of forum discussions. > > Soooooooooo, I thought I'd take the chance^^. > Pls notice me Yaime-sama Ryan, could you this one for me? Hope he'll give you his two coins regarding what Karma should be and how incredibly hard they F'ed up with her rework. And for me, all I can really say is: her rework doesn't have a theme, not at all. It doesn't revolve around a concrete, defined goal, or something that is characteristic to her character. The approach they took was this; Old Karma is bad and doesn't work, let's make her into a mage that is able to function and be viable while keeping her mantra system in tact (similar to how instead of designing Lissandra around the concept/theme of ''Ice Mage'', they said ''We want her to be able to be an initiating mage'', and then gave her all the tools she needed to be able to do that, which resulted in her being able to randomly teleport to the position of her ice claw ''because we just wanted her to be able to dive into the fray''. She's not ''Karma'' in the sense of the word and concept of Karma itself, which we'd like to think is what Karma should be to League of Legends. Instead they took Karma and turned her into ''Mage that functions with mantra system.'' They're just three random, generic, arbitrary ''mage'' abilities which you can empower every now and then to make them even stronger and give them an additional effect. Now, this does sound like it could be very cool, but it just ends up feeling very lame when the abilities have nothing to do with the character it was shoehorned on! PS: You seem nice. Feel free to add me! I do play a game every now and then, playing champions I feel are less aweful (currently in sort of an affair with Darius so to speak) Cheers, and hope ItemsGuy is going to give you a more detailled response in terms of new and old Karma! He's capable of expressing his thought way more clearly, also because he breathes champion design. I just ''get it'', it's easy for me to conclude whether something is good or bad, or what should be changed, or provide solutions (fun fact: I came up with Yorick Redesign, after I knew ItemsGuy didn't really know what to do with him yet, back in the days), it's harder for me to explain exactly why. Which is to say, I still can, but ItemsGuy just does it a whole lot better!
>Ryan, could you this one for me? Hope he'll give you his two coins regarding what Karma should be and how incredibly hard they F'ed up with her rework. Added him on League!
: honestly, you keep saying sion needs to change. saying sion should lost the shield, is like saying morde should lose the e, and the shield, and the ult, and all the rest of it because he's also an undead warrior. you're opinion, is terrible, destructive, and would hurt the game immeasurably if acted on. it would reduce the creativity that the devs could use, as well as other things, while not actually doing anything than trying to fix an issue that only a few people with narrow minds have.
>honestly, you keep saying sion needs to change. Not by much - just a little! He doesn't have to be less durable, he's just gotta *stop exploding*! >saying sion should lost the shield, is like saying morde should lose the e, and the shield, and the ult, and all the rest of it because he's also an undead warrior. [Riot also admits](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1951741&page=4#post32857596) that Mordekaiser being a big metal guy with a big metal mace that bonks you a bit and snags your ghost is kinda dumb, and they recently admit that only making slight changes to him (and Skarner, I believe) instead of doing a full overhaul was a mistake. A character like current Morde could be fine (if not a little weird) if he were a playable character or boss in some sort of RPG, but when it comes to League, it just hurts clarity. >you're opinion, is terrible, destructive, and would hurt the game immeasurably if acted on. it would reduce the creativity that the devs could use, as well as other things, while not actually doing anything than trying to fix an issue that only a few people with narrow minds have. You seem to make the mistake here that a lot of amateur game devs make, in thinking that "creativity" is all about blue sky, out-of-the-box, anything-is-possible solutions. Real game design is about knowing your box, and real creativity is about elegantly solving solutions while staying within that box. Due to the nature of League, a lot of limitations make up its box. Some of these are called "rules," some of these are called "technical restraints," some of these are called "Design Values"...One of the biggest ones is actually called "League of Legends is a fast-paced competitive game with over 130 characters with 5 to 9 abilities and Riot really, really wants it to be accessible as both a video game and spectator eSport"! It's really easy to create a solution that doesn't follow rules or recognize boundaries, which is why they just don't work.
: I suppose the only way for this argument to go further is to tell you what my viewpoint is, straight, simple. I like lol as a game where individual characters have depth. depth doesn't mean i want every character to be hyper unique. depth means I do not want to see this game to become archetypal. I want every character to feel different, and to have skills that would pertain to their personal style, while remaining playable. I want a game where you don't need to read lore to find out what a character is about, but where you can figure it out after playing them, and looking at their design, and listening to their vo. I also want a game where you can look to the lore, to learn even more about the characters that I resonate with. I want a game where i can find at least one character that resonates with me. a game where people can band together to defeat great foes, and the ability to destroy people that aren't capable. I want a forum where i can share my ideas, and have them noticed by the public, I want a forum where arguments are more than two people throwing stones until the one falls over or leaves. and that's all i want from league. that's really all I can perceive anyone wanting. and one final note, if you need to change a champion to make them work as something, then either that champion is broken fundamentally, or you are.
>I suppose the only way for this argument to go further is to tell you what my viewpoint is, straight, simple. The reason I spend so much time responding to you, is I believe that we don't necessarily want different things. But even if we walk away from this conversation in disagreement, no hard feelings! >I like lol as a game where individual characters have depth. depth doesn't mean i want every character to be hyper unique. depth means I do not want to see this game to become archetypal. It's fine and good to want that sort of depth, and while archetypes will always exist to give new players something familiar to cling to (Garen is a justice-loving white knight, Graves is a guy with a shotgun, Ziggs is a manic bomber), it's still possible to have interesting and atypical characters that remain wholly grounded to some sort of theme or idea without resorting to doing something that doesn't make sense just for the sake of being unique. [Twisted Fate](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/08/champion-redesign-twisted-fate-card.html?q=twisted+fate) is a mage who uses cards, and a cheater who likes to stack the odds in his favor before every fight. [Ezreal](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-ezreal-prodigal.html?q=ezreal) is an explorer who uses an artifact gauntlet to roam the map (as an explorer would). [Shen](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-shen-eye-of-twilight.html?q=shen) is a ninja, but also a tank, who uses his secret techniques to help his team from the shadows and incapacitate high-profile foes. Even beyond redesigns, we already have guys like Draven - who are absolutely unique to League, but still have their gameplay tied to their theme and personality (he's a flashy axe-juggling executioner, and his gameplay revolves entirely around his high risk/high reward axe catching - all [my redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/11/champion-redesign-draven-glorious.html) does is push it a little further). >I want a game where you don't need to read lore to find out what a character is about, but where you can figure it out after playing them, and looking at their design, and listening to their vo. I'd agree with one and a half of these things - you should absolutely be able to figure things out by watching (this kind of has to be the case if League ever wants to be a spectator eSport), it's alright if you can get more insight into a champion's strength and weaknesses by playing them firsthand (although they shouldn't depend much on this considering the number of champions and the fact you have to unlock them), but all a VO should really do is reinforce what you already know, and give more insight to the character rather than the gameplay kit. For example, Sion's lines out of combat reveal a more introspective side to him, but you don't really need to know about that to be able to guess that he'll probably want to pound the hell out of you when a fight does break out. >I also want a game where you can look to the lore, to learn even more about the characters that I resonate with. I want a game where i can find at least one character that resonates with me. I'd say this is more to do with character design than kit design, although a good champion is aligned in those things. Thresh loves getting into peoples' heads and drawing out their torment, Veigar is pitiful until you decide to underestimate him and let him Q stack, Gnar is super playful but his tantrums are violently explosive... And besides, I'm sure the narrative hook of (old) Maokai being not all that happy about his sentience, would still be intact if he did more tree stuff instead of punching the ground and exploding. I don't think people would resonate less with Galio as a stalwart gargoyle if he were less about shooting wind and exploding and more about...[being a stalwart gargoyle](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-galio-sentinels-sorrow.html). Does Sion resonate with you as an Undead Juggernaut because he explodes? Is Singed a mad chemist to you because he runs around and flips people? >I want a forum where arguments are more than two people throwing stones until the one falls over or leaves. Hey hey, I'd like to think my stones are at least well thought-out. : P >and one final note, if you need to change a champion to make them work as something, then either that champion is broken fundamentally, or you are. I used to be "broken fundamentally" - at least my understanding of game design (and designing for League) was! I used to think that champions like Nasus, or Lulu, or Karma should be removed from the game because their themes weren't as readily apparent as Brand's "fire guy" and Ashe's "ice archer." But after a lot of thinking, and a lot of learning, I realized that even the most abstract character could be at home in a MOBA like this as long as their kit was based around *something*, like an idea or personality. So then, [Nasus](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-nasus-curator-of-sands.html?q=nasus) became a patient collector of souls, [Lulu](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-lulu-fae-sorceress.html?q=lulu) became a whimsical mage who used her fairy companion as an anchor for her power, and [Karma](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html?q=karma) became the embodiment of her namesake, using her magic to turn sustained enemy aggression on its head. But you see, these things are still based around something concrete or familiar, and everything works towards a common goal. I don't need to throw in random visuals or mechanics just because I feel like they need to be "unique" to have depth or charm - I don't want to make the MOBA equivalent of [sparkledogs](https://www.google.com/search?q=sparkledog&biw=1468&bih=910&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjbuenBq9PLAhUEyj4KHUIZDIoQ_AUIBigB), after all. And while you seem to disagree, some champions are broken fundamentally (*coughYORICK*). That's probably why Riot wants to go and fix 'em all, even to the point where they are no longer recognizable, if they have to. It's important to keep player sentiment in mind, but sometimes creating a better game means cleaning up old messes that people have just happened to get used to. (I think Riot's actually a bit more extreme about this than I am, since I wanted to keep these redesigns separated to a sequel game, whereas Riot is making changes on the same canvas, so to speak)
: wombo has always been more of an ult thing. malph is known for his great cc, and he only has one strong cc and two soft, and he's known for his ult more than anything. that's how it's always been is important moving forward. making a change to better fit a character is good, but making a change to make a character fit an archetype is bad.
>wombo has always been more of an ult thing. malph is known for his great cc, and he only has one strong cc and two soft, and he's known for his ult more than anything. This is why Malph and Amumu are often referred to by players and devs alike as "walking ults" - mostly with a negative connotation. While a champion's ultimate should undoubtedly be the coolest part of their kit (hence why people are upset about Aurelion Sol's ult when his Q lets him make a skillshot the size of the enemy fountain), they shouldn't only feel cool the moment they press a button with a really long cooldown. >that's how it's always been is important moving forward. making a change to better fit a character is good, but making a change to make a character fit an archetype is bad. As I mentioned in my previous response to you, Riot and I both think that a cohesive identity is more important than whatever a champion's current identity is. Sion wasn't really anything before - he was just a guy that shot eye lasers and exploded and sometimes hit things with his axe if he wasn't building AP, but now he's the Undead Juggernaut (even if this experience is slightly distorted by his W). If a champion is better known as "the guy with that one ability" rather than for the theme and experience they're meant to encapsulate, then they need to be sent back to the drawing board. I've had a lot of fun with League and all of its flaws, but I'm not about to let it be held back by them.
: sion having a magical nature is given to his kit. if you want to look at this in a separate light, think about this, the only skill in sions kit that doesn't involve him using pressure generated in his soul furnace is him slapping his axe against the ground. his w is obvious, his e is a gust of air, not him actually throwing something, and his ult surrounds him in the same affect as his w. it all ties together. you need to think a bit about it, but he still feels like a crazy undead juggernaut with it. Through gameplay and design, you can tell cait is not just a normal, generic sniper. she uses a net, and has bear traps. the tip off however is that she isn't dressed for wilderness, but she has things used for trapping, and based on her dialogue she isn't insane, or at least she doesn't seem it, so having things used for trapping and being sane in a city. who does that most? police. it requires some logical leaps, but overall it's pretty solid, and its not so loose as to make you wonder. if urgot was the sheriff of piltover, you might have something here that's weird and random. characters with 8 abilities is all fine and good, but a master of the elements character would seem to be watered down in comparison to a specialist, and really that makes perfect sense. who is more skilled with a sword, the man that trained ten years with a sword, or the man who trained two years with a sword, two years with a hammer, two years with an axe, two years with spear, and two years with a bow. zyra has really not been an aoe mage, just a reactive team fighter, with her major similarities lying with lulu, it's not super important to mention this though, riots already changing her as we speak. there are a load of bounty hunter style champions. mostly bilgewater, but yeah. I'm sure a proper bounty hunter will surface, but don't think that trying to imagine someone who is not a bounty hunter should be. mf is NOT a bounty hunter, not anymore. in fact, she was never really a bounty hunter, it was more of a side thing, with her major plot being about the killing of her parents killer, gp, which she failed at spectacularly. also, her spot has been swapped with gp anyway. this is my argument for zilean. watch until you understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpe-JoGyPsY and really, if you notice most of the changes riot makes aren't bad. they make some awful ones, but for the most part the changes are pretty good. the poppy rework was good it kept her character feel the same, while enhancing it and letting her do the role she was meant to do. same with sion, and fiora, and darius and garen both got good changes recently. ----- one thing that you could probably get better at though, is being concise. I know you have a lot to say, and it's not easy to fit that in a small space, but people reading these comments later will get more out of them if they don't see twenty blocks of text. if you want to talk or something in game, you seem like a reasonable enough fellow, so I would be glad to.
(Note: I know this is in response to Yaime's post, but involves a lot of game design matters that I feel I can accurately address.) >sion having a magical nature is given to his kit. if you want to look at this in a separate light, think about this, the only skill in sions kit that doesn't involve him using pressure generated in his soul furnace is him slapping his axe against the ground. his w is obvious, his e is a gust of air, not him actually throwing something, and his ult surrounds him in the same affect as his w. This is probably a point I should've made in the previous reply, but even when "necromatic magic" is being used in his kit outside of his W, it's being done in a way that is somehow connected to brute force. He uses it to come back to life and punch you to death, slam into your team, crush the earth (as the red particles exist on his Q), and punt minions. If his W was still a defensive ability that involved him, say, swinging his axe wildly in front of himself to mitigate frontal damage for a few seconds (while dealing damage to enemies in his way with each swing), and used the red magic to extend the hitbox a bit - like how Braum summons a big, solid, shield-like ice wall as an extension of his big, solid, shield-like shield - then it would make perfect sense! But creating a magic bubble that explodes on its own is pretty out of place. Might make more sense on a [caster-style tank](http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/original-champion-ankhaten-sand-king.html), though... Like, it's cool for champions to have magic! It's a really fun and simple way to explain how they can do such extreme things, but it's also important to limit this vague and fantastic power, so that it acts as an extension of the champion's theme, not as an addendum that needs explanation. For instance, the [Maokai redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html) uses magic to let Maokai do cool tree-like things, like enrich the soil under himself, create magic saplings, quickly spread his roots, etc. Having Maokai, say, smash the ground and slow people is cool, but honestly? Anyone could do that. If I lock in Maokai, I want to do things that only the Twisted Treant could do. That just makes sense to me, you know? >it all ties together. you need to think a bit about it, but he still feels like a crazy undead juggernaut with it. I won't argue that having a mechanic that allows you to take more damage doesn't feel somewhat juggernaut-y, but I can say for certain that an exploding bubble isn't the best solution. Abstract problems call for creative solutions, and "just keep the bubble shield because players like it/are used to it" isn't much of one, as reasonable as it may be. >Through gameplay and design, you can tell cait is not just a normal, generic sniper. she uses a net, and has bear traps. the tip off however is that she isn't dressed for wilderness, but she has things used for trapping, and based on her dialogue she isn't insane, or at least she doesn't seem it, so having things used for trapping and being sane in a city. who does that most? police. it requires some logical leaps, but overall it's pretty solid, and its not so loose as to make you wonder. But you see, you still have to explain all of this. Not only do you have to tell me that Caitlyn, who just looks like a steampunk sniper (considering her only visual elements in her splash and in-game model are her outfit and weapon), is a sheriff...you also have to explain to me that she's the kind of sheriff that uses nets and bear traps, which are used for hunting animals. These are both leaps of logic her design forces the player to take, and none of them really help her feel like League's Resident Sniper or League's Resident Sheriff. She's just a chick that mostly uses her sniper rifle like a hunting rifle and uses hunting tools to keep herself away from her enemies, who she'd want to chase after and catch if she were a proper sheriff. Maybe this would be less of a problem if League wasn't a competitive game and didn't have 130 playable characters and wasn't isometric and zoomed the hell out, but it is! The game's context is the box it resides within, and it's the job of the designers to think within that box and innovate so that even crazier ideas can fit inside it, such as using central ideas and mechanics to ground champions with abstract themes - for example, a "Wandering Caretaker" who both wanders and takes care of people...[for the most part](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/11/champion-redesign-bard-wandering.html). >characters with 8 abilities is all fine and good, but a master of the elements character would seem to be watered down in comparison to a specialist, and really that makes perfect sense. > >who is more skilled with a sword, the man that trained ten years with a sword, or the man who trained two years with a sword, two years with a hammer, two years with an axe, two years with spear, and two years with a bow. The thing is...why would you want to play as a watered down anything? Why would you want a "master of elements" who isn't a master of any of those elements, and whose fire powers are birthday candles compared to Brand's raging inferno? League doesn't have room for characters who don't provide amazing and specific experiences (and amazing and specific gameplay, strategic niches, etc.), because it is the game that it is. League is limited by the qualities that define it, and even if you think it might be cool to have everything at once, you can have a bit of a couple things at most. >there are a load of bounty hunter style champions. mostly bilgewater, but yeah. I'm sure a proper bounty hunter will surface, but don't think that trying to imagine someone who is not a bounty hunter should be. mf is NOT a bounty hunter, not anymore. in fact, she was never really a bounty hunter, it was more of a side thing, with her major plot being about the killing of her parents killer, gp, which she failed at spectacularly. also, her spot has been swapped with gp anyway. Why would we have a bounty hunter when we already have Miss Fortune, The Bounty Hunter? What is Miss Fortune supposed to be if not a Bounty Hunter? A person with two guns? We already have Lucian for that. It's fine and good to explain what her lore is to me, but I'm not sure if I'd lock in as her because I wanted to play as "Miss Fortune, The Redhead Who Was Kind Of A Bounty Hunter On The Side Who REALLY Wanted To Just Kill Gangplank But Failed Spectacularly At It, Also Her Spot Has Been Swapped With Gangplank Anyway." >this is my argument for zilean. watch until you understand. Bruh, that's one of my favorite videos. Memes aren't a compelling argument for game design, however! >and really, if you notice most of the changes riot makes aren't bad. they make some awful ones, but for the most part the changes are pretty good. the poppy rework was good it kept her character feel the same, while enhancing it and letting her do the role she was meant to do. same with sion, and fiora, and darius and garen both got good changes recently. I'm not saying I'm not happy with Riot's recent changes - I'm not saying they're not good, I'm saying they're not good _enough_ (by Riot's own standards, at least). Even with champions/reworks that introduce some really cool mechanics or involve gameplay patterns that feel super characteristic, there's always a disconnect somewhere (such as Jhin's Q or Fiora's team heal, for example).
: you see, that is false, he calls sions soul furnace not unique, and claims that quinn should not be able to backflip because she is a falconer. I want a zyra that uses plants, a mf that is a wombo queen, and a zilean that is an old man that can't be killed. I have grown attached to these characters, and what they do as well.
>you see, that is false, he calls sions soul furnace not unique, and claims that quinn should not be able to backflip because she is a falconer. I believe the issue here isn't that Sion's Soul Furnace isn't unique, but rather that it sticks out like a sore thumb amongst his primary themes ("Axe Warrior" and "Juggernaut") since it involves neither brute force nor his undead qualities. When you add this weird magic onto his kit, since he only has a limited number of abilities, it ends up watering down the themes he already has. Why can't Sion be durable through the qualities that make him Undead (which he already has with his passive) or a Juggernaut (brute force with his Q, E, R)? Why does he have to explode when the coolest part of him is his brutish, undying strength? A similar issue lies with Quinn - sure, it's unique to have a falconer who is also an archer and does backflips. But the thing is, you're now forcing her to be three things that have some sort of vague connection to each other rather than two things that play really well off of each other. The backflip would be fine if Quinn dropped the crossbow and became an acrobatic melee fighter like her trusty avian companion, or if she gave up Valor and owned her thematic niche as some sort of acrobatic archer. But right now, all that backflip is doing is preventing Quinn's more prominent (and visibly dominant) themes from reaching their full potential, while preventing League from having a dedicated acrobatic champion because Quinn already does backflips for no reason. >I want a zyra that uses plants, a mf that is a wombo queen, and a zilean that is an old man that can't be killed. I have grown attached to these characters, and what they do as well. I can appreciate that, but the thing is, [Riot and I are of a similar mind](http://imgur.com/ZFcnXlG) when it comes to the future of champions. Does Zyra have plants now? Sure, but they aren't as prominent as they could be, which Riot aims to address with her update. With Miss Fortune and Zilean, their niches are really only contributed to through their ultimates (there's little "Wombo" about Miss Fortune aside from the ult, and while Zilean's ult has its own strategic niche, it has little to do with the rest of his kit beyond "they're support-y"). These experiences are ultimately weaker, because they have nothing to tie them together. Just to illustrate my point, imagine if [Twitch](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-twitch-plague-rat.html?q=twitch) was instead League's resident "Wombo carry" - not because he just happens to have an ult that lets him do that, but rather due to his theme-informed kit (sneaky rat that spreads plague) giving him a gameplay niche that allows him to be very effective against grouped-up enemy teams during ambushes. This, I think, would ultimately be a stronger experience for players and spectators alike, and changing something that players are used to is just an unfortunate cost of that; "That's how it's always been" is never a good enough reason to stop moving forward. It's alright to grow attached to these characters, and it's only natural. However, characters that people become attached to because they're used to them and characters that people become attached to because they provide holistic and thematically resonant experiences are two separate things, and I believe Riot and I are both much more attracted to the latter (even if it might break a few hearts for a little while). It's all about that [short-term pain vs. long-term benefit](http://imgur.com/pwa52jW), and I suppose there's really only one way to find out which one will outweigh the other. (To be fair, I think Sion's been getting a bit more love from the community now than before his big rework, even if some people are distraught that he no longer shoots eye lasers)
: http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=117891893 rewatching it while on more than five minutes of sleep changed my outlook on the scenario. he wants a more generic game, which lol should not be. lol's characters are diverse but similar, creating a feel of unity among the champions.
Who, Yaime? If so, I'm really confused here, since the point of the video and the post are entirely contrary to that. The problem with League right now (which Riot is trying to fix, with varying degrees of success), is that champions are by and far too similar - take the Cait and Jhin example, for instance, as his problem with them is that they both bring very similar tools to the game. Compare that to Darius and Gnar, who are both bruisers that fulfill largely different roles and play completely differently (with playstyles that are largely informed by their themes). Yaime and I want a [Zyra](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html?q=zyra) who distinguishes herself through much more thematically plant-like gameplay, a [Miss Fortune](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-miss-fortune-bounty.html?q=fortune) you bring onto the team when you want a proper Bounty Hunter, a [Zilean](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/champion-redesign-zilean-chronokeeper.html?q=zilean) who can turn back the clock on allies and enemies alike...There's a lot of cool stuff that champions could be doing in place of some of the fairly generic, role-based things they do now, and I would like nothing more than to change that!
: Thank you for responding to him for me, buddy! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
> [{quoted}](name=Yaime Loveheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=001800010000,timestamp=2016-03-21T00:09:55.136+0000) > > Thank you for responding to him for me, buddy! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} No worries - it seems a lot of the disagreements there (for the time being) were mostly due to misunderstandings. Hopefully I cleared things up enough! It's fine if people don't see eye-to-eye with the OP, but I'd rather that be because they understand the points and just disagree with them, rather than because they disagree with a point it wasn't trying to make (ex. some people seem to think one of your arguments was that champions should conform to their lore, despite you saying that Smite is flawed because a lot of abilities depend on esoteric knowledge of the mythology behind some of the more obscure gods).
: video was good. had a lot of decent points.
> [{quoted}](name=macromite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-03-21T17:53:36.137+0000) > > video was good. had a lot of decent points. Mind sharing your thoughts? Whether you agree or disagree, all feedback is helpful!
Dengeden (EUW)
: > If a strategy is so powerful that it edges other strategies out, if the game enters a state where hard CC and burst aren’t just as relevant as any other tool in the right hands, then that's on the designers to fix. Beyond balance (which I'm not too good at beyond adding the levers that people who are good with numbers can use), I hope that's something I can address with champion design! I dunno man, if you look at LCS, there's always that handful of champions that dictate organized 5v5. Let's hope that circle can be broken. If you look at soloQ, anything is possible ;) > I'd say, without the clunky controls, without all the weird technical stuff like denying and creep stacking, without all the crazy items and extremely unforgiving mechanics, look at DotA2. But that's the thing, isn't DotA so versatile because of all that weird and OP crud? In LoL there are often (min. 90% of the time) very clear, definite and permanent objectives (usually damage on towers and CS; dragon and baron to varying extents), which leads to players picking the best champions to obtain/deny/steal them. Not that they don't exist in DotA but I feel like it has more ways to fight for objectives and more objectives in general. LoL's gameplay on the other hand has a more telegraphed flow. If you meet certain criteria (waveclear and wards, mostly), you pretty much don't have to worry about losing out. >This is a game where damn near every hero is niche, every hero has some reason to be picked over others in its role, even if those others are numerically "stronger" or easier to do well with. Isn't it also because counterpicks are a *lot* more clearcut than in LoL? > (And by that I mean that you're going to have to deal with strengths and weaknesses no matter who you play, so no individual champion would warrant any more special treatment than anyone else in order to succeed) I fear that again, players who want to win will be more concerned with what the most riskfree strategy is, not what niche champion best fits during that stage in the draft phase. > It also leads to some pretty cool stuff! It's one of my favorite things about [designing MOBA heroes](http://www.ryanmelley.com/#!original/cghg), honestly. It's about finding those thematic overlaps to keep things cool but also simple! :) Have at it, they're very enjoyable reads. > If it's more to do with the actual gameplay, I'd say he's more in line with current Quinn (even with the backflip, which he had before it was cool ;_; ), in that he's actually quite frail, but [he] can either. ;_; I'm still a bit ambivalent about him. The ability to itemize defensively as well as offensively early on is very powerful (at least in the state the game is currently in). Your Zyra rework is excellent, still the same kind of plant-centric disengage mage that I know and love, only more plant-centric.
>I dunno man, if you look at LCS, there's always that handful of champions that dictate organized 5v5. Let's hope that circle can be broken. If you look at soloQ, anything is possible ;) While I love the wonders of a good ol' Veigar/Lulu botlane, most of the time the reason a crazy strategy works in Solo Queue is due to opponents not being coordinated enough to deal with it (hence why you don't see much of it in organized play, aside from outlier fringe cases derived from very specific circumstances, like that one Braum/Maokai botlane). I want competitive play to be as crazy, fun, and varied as Wood Tier! However, one of the reasons that even Solo Queue strategy tends to stagnate, is that players who want to get better at the game tend to spend a lot of time looking at the stars (who you can conveniently watch on TwitchTV!)...which would be absolutely fine [if pro players weren't able to pick apart the game](http://imgur.com/P2deiN5) and find the easiest and safest solutions to win. While they don't hold all the solutions, my redesigns are intended to remove any sort of "no-brainer" answers to the game, so that pros try to find the ever-elusive "perfect comp" while juggling every champion's unique strengths and weaknesses, and the average Joes who look up to them follow suit in crazy and unexpected ways! I want League matches to [surprise me](https://youtu.be/J5I-5eo_vDM?t=118) in the way DotA 2 matches do. >But that's the thing, isn't DotA so versatile because of all that weird and OP crud? In LoL there are often (min. 90% of the time) very clear, definite and permanent objectives (usually damage on towers and CS; dragon and baron to varying extents), which leads to players picking the best champions to obtain/deny/steal them. Not that they don't exist in DotA but I feel like it has more ways to fight for objectives and more objectives in general. LoL's gameplay on the other hand has a more telegraphed flow. If you meet certain criteria (waveclear and wards, mostly), you pretty much don't have to worry about losing out. You see, you're partially right here - and you illustrate exactly why I'm trying to turn League into League 2.0, and not DotA. There are a lot of really interesting mechanics in DotA, but unfortunately, they come packed with a lot of low-gameplay abilities and kits (Wraith King wants to click-stun you and then right-click you to death), and even some of the most interesting abilities make no sense in their implementation (an angry ghost switches places with you for reasons??). I want League to have the same strategic depth and diversity through endless combinations of champion strengths and weaknesses, and it's through including these sorts of weaknesses that champions are allowed to have strengths that seem "crazy and OP." [Redesign!Zyra](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html?q=zyra) would have the capability to make it riskier for the enemy Warwick to solo dragon without even stepping out of her lane, and [Nocturne's](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html?q=nocturne) ability to single out and tear apart isolated enemies would be even greater than it is now, but there will always be some accessible, strategic answer to those strengths (pressure Zyra and kill her plants, or stick together so Noct wouldn't want to get near you) on top of those champions having to navigate their own weaknesses in the process. >Isn't it also because counterpicks are a lot more clearcut than in LoL? That's an unfortunate aspect of DotA's archaic design, and why I structure my redesigns the way I do (holistic kits with unified goals, rather than a bunch of unique but somewhat coincidental mechanics). Even if one champ's strengths are their opponent's weakness, it would be the same vice-verse as well, so it would ultimately come down to each player trying to make their own strengths more relevant through skillful play ([Ezreal](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-ezreal-prodigal.html?q=ezreal) would want to make the game more about roaming, while [Heimer ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-heimerdinger-revered.html?q=heimerdinger)would want to force the game to stay focused around his lane). On top of that, even when a match isn't about a champion's strength, they still have fallback patterns - if the enemies are pressuring Zyra and killing her plants, she can sacrifice some lane presence to grow them behind her tower before moving them around the map, for instance. And even with champions I design as "counters," they are less about beating people in matchups, and more about sacrificing a proactive strength in order to remove one from the enemy team - and even this, ideally, would be dependent on skillful play. >I fear that again, players who want to win will be more concerned with what the most riskfree strategy is, not what niche champion best fits during that stage in the draft phase. Hence why I want to eliminate "risk-free" from the game. Ideally, players who want to win should be more concerned with finding that "perfect composition" - and since this can become impossible with good design, that search will never end! >:) Have at it, they're very enjoyable reads. Thanks, my dude - means a lot! >;_; >I'm still a bit ambivalent about him. The ability to itemize defensively as well as offensively early on is very powerful (at least in the state the game is currently in). Ideally, building defensively or offensively should have trade-offs. If this isn't the case right now, then I suppose that's just another problem to fix! (Not like I'm redesigning the entire item system as well, cough cough)
: I disagree with many, many of your points and I think you come off as condescending with many, many of your remarks. From what I can see, you're of the opinion that champion's kits shouldn't be restricted by lore, I disagree, and all mentions of kit lore dissidence you mention are almost completely false. A player who knows Fenrir's lore will have a vague idea that fenrir is probably a warrior type god who does physical damage, everything else is purely up to game mechanics and the dev's choices. There's not one god I could 100% predict from reading their bio, I understood a rough outline of the character, but I could do the same thing BY LOOKING AT A PICTURE. Using your argument and my understanding of it, any champion who preforms like their character looks is bad game design. I can easily predict that Sion is some kind of magical (from his gut) juggernaut (based on his physical build and massive axe), who can shrug off injuries and carry on in battle regardless of the damage he's taken (the gaping hole in his back, the missing foot). I can predict Vladimir steals people's blood. I can predict Annie shoots fireballs at my face. 'The undead juggernaut' is just as accurate of a prediction of a character as 'The God of Thunder'. One of the reason's smite is a fun game is BECAUSE the characters are iconic from the start. Sure, there are a lot of kits (fenrir, thor, loki, pretty much all the Norse gods due to how fleshed out as characters in external media they are) that are held back thematically by being X god, there are so many more that take unique and gameplay focused roles like Nox (who is a generic MOBA mage), Ares (who is a tanky midline engage support), Amaterasu (who is an irelia-esque bruiser), Thanatos (nocturne-esque assassin), etc. But, while you complain that many gods follow their lore too closely, you absolutely criticize the gods that don't follow the trend that's to be expected. These random ability kits are focused on gameplay and balance BEFORE LORE. in a competitive game, **GAMEPLAY TAKES FOCUS OVER THEMES**. I and many others couldn't care less what a champ looks like and what their overall kit is as long as it contributes to game balance. You're 'but all these characters have random abilities' criticism in the context of league being better than smite is completely hypocritical to the extreme, as until league fixes the exact same 'issue' (i dont see it as an issue), you have no grounds to use it as an argument point in the given context. Smite has problems, **BUT GOD DESIGN ISN'T ONE**. Another point you make is that micro skill should matter more than macro skill. If i'm not getting it wrong, you want less game mechanics and more champion mechanics. I 100% disagree with this philosophy. A good dota player will be good at the majority of roles, they are good dota players. If a game followed the design philosophy you're trying to push with this post, a player could only be a good Irelia player or a good Nocturne player. Good game design is subjective, and in a comment, you mention that it can be objectified, and I think you are absolutely full of shit for saying so. One of the things I LOVE about dota is being able to play to my macro focused strengths and BE the guy who denies opponents farm and becomes superman from being up 80+ cs, I feel satisfied knowing that I am better at the game of dota than they are, and feel rewarded knowing I can fucking murder them with no counterplay because of it. I'm winning at dota, not the 1v1. When it comes to dota, I am a better DOTA PLAYER, not a Shadowfiend or juggernaut player, I have the ability to carry my game knowledge from hero to hero and still preform moderately well. What would make a game good is verity, the ability to play both ways, the macro 'resource denial' way, and the micro 'i will outplay you' kind of way. In this regard, honestly I think Dota is a far, far, FAR better game. It separates good players from bad players though baseline mechanical skill alone. A good dota player will be far, far more useful than a good Juggernaut player. And i think that this is a good thing, but this is purely opinion, and OPINIONS ARE NOT QUANTIFIABLE. I personally enjoy both micro and macro aspects of MOBAs, the way you interact with a complex game world is incredibly immersive and adds a skill ceiling that I feel is both high and reasonable. Powerspikes are a key component of a moba, speeding to and maximinzing yours, minimizing and preventing their. They're the perfect mix of micro and macro focused play, but your comment in regards to being 80cs up and having more items being toxic makes me seem like you either don't understand the point of powerspike management. My response to that arguement is 'git gud'. Honestly, I don't have more to say. Powerspiking is THE thing that separates champions from one another. You want a skill focused trading based game, well I'm sorry to say, friend, that MOBA's aren't for you. Powerspike management is pure game knowledge and it will carry you in a moba. A moba is NOT a fighting game based around pure outplays, and honestly shouldn't be. the MOBA, from the start, is a blend of strategy and action. In a comment, you mention Sion being bad champ design because of his shield not fitting his lore. His whole thing is that he's a magically raised undead juggernaut who uses souls to fuel his unlife. His W is all about harnessing excess from the furnace in his gut and turning them into force, both for the shield and the explosion. Your post mentions champ design being an issue. No, it's honestly not. The game has both thematic and gameplay focused kits. You say Lissandra is shoehorned in to give dota a Puck orb? I say the game could use the puck orb and that that doesn't define Liss by a longshot, her potent engage tools as a tanky mage are what make Liss Liss, not her ability to bring a Puck orb. KIT DESIGN IS NOT A PROBLEM. You're saying the game hasn't taken it's changes far enough, me, and a lot of the community are saying Riot has already **TAKEN IT TOO FAR**. You're suggesting a skill focused fighting game. Well that's not what I signed up for, that's not what a lot of people signed up for. I want to be able to be a good LEAGUE player, but right now, I'm stuck being a good AMUMU player due to the directions the game is taking towards gimping stratigic focused play in favor of your idealized micro focused game. I, as a player, am legitimately struggling to continue playing this game BECAUSE IT IS SHIFTING TOWARDS YOUR FOCUS. Pre-rework fiora was my second most played character during season 5 prior to her rework, simply because _I can focus on playing league, not my champion_. And as a player, I feel extremely alienated by the changes being made, I'm legitimately scared that all the champions and playstyles I so love are going to be destroyed. The only role I can preform while having a good time in is jungle, and only with a few select champions who support my 'hit or miss, use the map and my powerspikes to my advantage' playstyle, because in lane, I'm being forced to heavily interact with my lane opponent when I really don't want to be. **PEOPLE ARE LEAVING LEAGUE DUE TO THE CHANGES IN THE MACROGAME, NOT THE MICROGAME**. In terms of microgame, oh, the game is _THRIVING_, trading and laning are extremely dynamic and each matchup is unique with every champion having a lot of impact during the laning phase. The reason why people are disliking league, myself included, is because you can't be the good league player, you can only be the good midlane control mage main, or the good toplane tank main. There is such little overlap in the way to win games with each champion outside of barebones basics (ward, kill laner, kill towers, gank, kill dragon) that players are feeling frustrated because they cant carry over any skills from prior champs. You win when 3/5 players do their job and win lane hard on a champions that snowball for easy kills. This is the metagame for anything below platium elo, which I want to say is somewhere around 85% of the playerbase. You cannot rely on towers, you cannot rely on sustained damage dealers, you cannot rely on a lategame hypercarry, none of it matters. You outright can't rely on a lategame teamcomp, 2 items is all you can realistically achieve at this point in most games. The game is so micro focused that you can't really play an objective focused game from the start, the first 12-20 minutes are all purely about trading in lane to the point of being almost forced. This is due to towers being next to useless and falling over from a stiff wind. Towers are pathetic and reward an INSANE amount of gold for how pathetically easy they are to kill. Death times lategame are also becoming absurd to the point of unfun. Both of these last 2 facts premote earlygame snowballing champions to an obscene level. Lategame champs are currently garbage because all of their counters being meta and their primary defense mechanism for earlygame being nerfed to hell.
Anywho, picking up where I left off! >I, as a player, am legitimately struggling to continue playing this game BECAUSE IT IS SHIFTING TOWARDS YOUR FOCUS. Pre-rework fiora was my second most played character during season 5 prior to her rework, simply because I can focus on playing league, not my champion. I don't know, man - kind of defeats the point of having a really, really, really big roster if you only want there to be one playable character. Maybe you'd have a better time with TF2 or Overwatch? Ah, wait, shit, the characters are too different...Maybe [Nidhogg](http://www.nidhogggame.com/)? It's really good! (I know I'm being a bit facetious here - although it really does look like the game you want and the kind of game League is set up to be are not the same game. Every game has a target audience, and it's alright to not be part of that target audience - I'll never be a big CoD player, for example, as I'm quite shit at aiming.) >In terms of microgame, oh, the game is THRIVING, trading and laning are extremely dynamic and each matchup is unique with every champion having a lot of impact during the laning phase. This is good to hear! I think it could be better and more interesting, though, and I'd like to see what it could be at its best. That's why I do what I do! >The reason why people are disliking league, myself included, is because you can't be the good league player, you can only be the good midlane control mage main, or the good toplane tank main. You gave some stellar advice earlier in your post, in regards to mastering creep denying and CS: "My response to that arguement is 'git gud'." You *are* playing League of Legends, after all. You are playing a hybrid strategy-action game with a massive roster, so thinking you can get away with only the bare-bones mechanics is a little silly, don't you think? It's like wanting to be a good tennis player, but only wanting to learn how to serve the ball. From what you're saying, you seem like a pretty skilled player - probably more skilled than I am, considering how well you can deal with the craziness of DotA. I don't think it's outside of your capabilities as a player to learn how to play more than one champion. I believe in you! >You win when 3/5 players do their job and win lane hard on a champions that snowball for easy kills. This is the metagame for anything below platium elo, which I want to say is somewhere around 85% of the playerbase. You cannot rely on towers, you cannot rely on sustained damage dealers, you cannot rely on a lategame hypercarry, none of it matters. This is something I'm displeased with, honestly. Should you be able to win lane hard and snowball? Sure - but there are so many other ways to win in the game, and something is wrong if they aren't all at least similarly prevalent. If a tower can't be relied on to fulfill its purpose, then what's the point of having it in the game? Anyway, hopefully all of this clears up at least some things for you. Please let me know if I was hazy in any of my explanations, however!
: I disagree with many, many of your points and I think you come off as condescending with many, many of your remarks. From what I can see, you're of the opinion that champion's kits shouldn't be restricted by lore, I disagree, and all mentions of kit lore dissidence you mention are almost completely false. A player who knows Fenrir's lore will have a vague idea that fenrir is probably a warrior type god who does physical damage, everything else is purely up to game mechanics and the dev's choices. There's not one god I could 100% predict from reading their bio, I understood a rough outline of the character, but I could do the same thing BY LOOKING AT A PICTURE. Using your argument and my understanding of it, any champion who preforms like their character looks is bad game design. I can easily predict that Sion is some kind of magical (from his gut) juggernaut (based on his physical build and massive axe), who can shrug off injuries and carry on in battle regardless of the damage he's taken (the gaping hole in his back, the missing foot). I can predict Vladimir steals people's blood. I can predict Annie shoots fireballs at my face. 'The undead juggernaut' is just as accurate of a prediction of a character as 'The God of Thunder'. One of the reason's smite is a fun game is BECAUSE the characters are iconic from the start. Sure, there are a lot of kits (fenrir, thor, loki, pretty much all the Norse gods due to how fleshed out as characters in external media they are) that are held back thematically by being X god, there are so many more that take unique and gameplay focused roles like Nox (who is a generic MOBA mage), Ares (who is a tanky midline engage support), Amaterasu (who is an irelia-esque bruiser), Thanatos (nocturne-esque assassin), etc. But, while you complain that many gods follow their lore too closely, you absolutely criticize the gods that don't follow the trend that's to be expected. These random ability kits are focused on gameplay and balance BEFORE LORE. in a competitive game, **GAMEPLAY TAKES FOCUS OVER THEMES**. I and many others couldn't care less what a champ looks like and what their overall kit is as long as it contributes to game balance. You're 'but all these characters have random abilities' criticism in the context of league being better than smite is completely hypocritical to the extreme, as until league fixes the exact same 'issue' (i dont see it as an issue), you have no grounds to use it as an argument point in the given context. Smite has problems, **BUT GOD DESIGN ISN'T ONE**. Another point you make is that micro skill should matter more than macro skill. If i'm not getting it wrong, you want less game mechanics and more champion mechanics. I 100% disagree with this philosophy. A good dota player will be good at the majority of roles, they are good dota players. If a game followed the design philosophy you're trying to push with this post, a player could only be a good Irelia player or a good Nocturne player. Good game design is subjective, and in a comment, you mention that it can be objectified, and I think you are absolutely full of shit for saying so. One of the things I LOVE about dota is being able to play to my macro focused strengths and BE the guy who denies opponents farm and becomes superman from being up 80+ cs, I feel satisfied knowing that I am better at the game of dota than they are, and feel rewarded knowing I can fucking murder them with no counterplay because of it. I'm winning at dota, not the 1v1. When it comes to dota, I am a better DOTA PLAYER, not a Shadowfiend or juggernaut player, I have the ability to carry my game knowledge from hero to hero and still preform moderately well. What would make a game good is verity, the ability to play both ways, the macro 'resource denial' way, and the micro 'i will outplay you' kind of way. In this regard, honestly I think Dota is a far, far, FAR better game. It separates good players from bad players though baseline mechanical skill alone. A good dota player will be far, far more useful than a good Juggernaut player. And i think that this is a good thing, but this is purely opinion, and OPINIONS ARE NOT QUANTIFIABLE. I personally enjoy both micro and macro aspects of MOBAs, the way you interact with a complex game world is incredibly immersive and adds a skill ceiling that I feel is both high and reasonable. Powerspikes are a key component of a moba, speeding to and maximinzing yours, minimizing and preventing their. They're the perfect mix of micro and macro focused play, but your comment in regards to being 80cs up and having more items being toxic makes me seem like you either don't understand the point of powerspike management. My response to that arguement is 'git gud'. Honestly, I don't have more to say. Powerspiking is THE thing that separates champions from one another. You want a skill focused trading based game, well I'm sorry to say, friend, that MOBA's aren't for you. Powerspike management is pure game knowledge and it will carry you in a moba. A moba is NOT a fighting game based around pure outplays, and honestly shouldn't be. the MOBA, from the start, is a blend of strategy and action. In a comment, you mention Sion being bad champ design because of his shield not fitting his lore. His whole thing is that he's a magically raised undead juggernaut who uses souls to fuel his unlife. His W is all about harnessing excess from the furnace in his gut and turning them into force, both for the shield and the explosion. Your post mentions champ design being an issue. No, it's honestly not. The game has both thematic and gameplay focused kits. You say Lissandra is shoehorned in to give dota a Puck orb? I say the game could use the puck orb and that that doesn't define Liss by a longshot, her potent engage tools as a tanky mage are what make Liss Liss, not her ability to bring a Puck orb. KIT DESIGN IS NOT A PROBLEM. You're saying the game hasn't taken it's changes far enough, me, and a lot of the community are saying Riot has already **TAKEN IT TOO FAR**. You're suggesting a skill focused fighting game. Well that's not what I signed up for, that's not what a lot of people signed up for. I want to be able to be a good LEAGUE player, but right now, I'm stuck being a good AMUMU player due to the directions the game is taking towards gimping stratigic focused play in favor of your idealized micro focused game. I, as a player, am legitimately struggling to continue playing this game BECAUSE IT IS SHIFTING TOWARDS YOUR FOCUS. Pre-rework fiora was my second most played character during season 5 prior to her rework, simply because _I can focus on playing league, not my champion_. And as a player, I feel extremely alienated by the changes being made, I'm legitimately scared that all the champions and playstyles I so love are going to be destroyed. The only role I can preform while having a good time in is jungle, and only with a few select champions who support my 'hit or miss, use the map and my powerspikes to my advantage' playstyle, because in lane, I'm being forced to heavily interact with my lane opponent when I really don't want to be. **PEOPLE ARE LEAVING LEAGUE DUE TO THE CHANGES IN THE MACROGAME, NOT THE MICROGAME**. In terms of microgame, oh, the game is _THRIVING_, trading and laning are extremely dynamic and each matchup is unique with every champion having a lot of impact during the laning phase. The reason why people are disliking league, myself included, is because you can't be the good league player, you can only be the good midlane control mage main, or the good toplane tank main. There is such little overlap in the way to win games with each champion outside of barebones basics (ward, kill laner, kill towers, gank, kill dragon) that players are feeling frustrated because they cant carry over any skills from prior champs. You win when 3/5 players do their job and win lane hard on a champions that snowball for easy kills. This is the metagame for anything below platium elo, which I want to say is somewhere around 85% of the playerbase. You cannot rely on towers, you cannot rely on sustained damage dealers, you cannot rely on a lategame hypercarry, none of it matters. You outright can't rely on a lategame teamcomp, 2 items is all you can realistically achieve at this point in most games. The game is so micro focused that you can't really play an objective focused game from the start, the first 12-20 minutes are all purely about trading in lane to the point of being almost forced. This is due to towers being next to useless and falling over from a stiff wind. Towers are pathetic and reward an INSANE amount of gold for how pathetically easy they are to kill. Death times lategame are also becoming absurd to the point of unfun. Both of these last 2 facts premote earlygame snowballing champions to an obscene level. Lategame champs are currently garbage because all of their counters being meta and their primary defense mechanism for earlygame being nerfed to hell.
Hmm, the points Yaime was trying to make and the points you are interpreting in this post seem to be crossing different paths more often than not. Let's see if I can help clear things up... >Using your argument and my understanding of it, any champion who preforms like their character looks is bad game design. Actually, I'm pretty sure the argument here is "you shouldn't have to read the lore to understand the basic gist of a character - it should be as simple as looking at their splash art and in-game model." >I can easily predict that Sion is some kind of magical (from his gut) juggernaut (based on his physical build and massive axe), who can shrug off injuries and carry on in battle regardless of the damage he's taken (the gaping hole in his back, the missing foot). I wouldn't say a gut wound would be as good an indicator of "magical" as, say, Ryze's scrolls or Veigar's staff. Hell, even if Sion was renamed "The Magical Undead Juggernaut" and he carried around Gandalf's staff in his non-axe hand, what is there to expect? Magic is so vague and undefined that everyone could have a different interpretation of it, so when "magic" is introduced as a part of a character, it should be used to supplement the existing themes rather than exist as a theme on its own. Maokai is a magic tree, so his magic should be what allows him to do things that trees can't do (rapidly spread their roots, sprout magic saplings) that are still charcteristically tree-like, rather than shooting out balls of magic or whatever. Likewise, Sion's magic is what allows him to exist as the *Undead* Juggernaut, giving him the ability to defy death (ie. Necromancy). You can create a cool kit with the themes "undead" and "juggernaut" since they can play off of each other fairly well, but the moment you have him casting spells, those themes suffer. Sion's kit is full of brute force and should feel good because of that brute force (slamming people with your massive axe, punting minions, initiating with your face from halfway across the map, punching people even though you just died), so even if it is expected that Sion would be durable, it should be in a way that has to do with his existing themes. Braum is durable because he has a massive shield, not because a wizard put a bubble on him. >I can predict Vladimir steals people's blood. I can predict Annie shoots fireballs at my face. Hence why the [Vladimir redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-vladimir-crimson.html) is more about stealing blood and less about turning into a puddle/whatever his ult is. Although I'd argue that [Annie](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-annie-dark-child.html) should be more about he big ol' bear, since nobody else in the roster has one and Brand already has us covered in the "shoots fireballs" department. > there are so many more that take unique and gameplay focused roles like Nox (who is a generic MOBA mage), Ares (who is a tanky midline engage support), Amaterasu (who is an irelia-esque bruiser), Thanatos (nocturne-esque assassin), etc. The thing is, you say "unique and gameplay focused roles" yet you immediately mention "generic MOBA mage," "Irelia-esque bruiser," etc. One of the problems that plagued League until fairly recently is that Riot only thought of champions as generic video game mechanics that fulfilled a generic video game role. Leona did tank stuff because she was a tank, Nami did support stuff because she was a support and so on...and one of the major issues that came from this was that champions were constantly fighting to be the best in their role, rather than being equals through the qualities that made them unique. It's why Riot is putting such a strong emphasis on thematic cohesion (not wanting Aurelion Sol to just be "a wizard in a dragon costume," changing Zyra so that she's more about her plants, etc.) right now. >in a competitive game, GAMEPLAY TAKES FOCUS OVER THEMES. I and many others couldn't care less what a champ looks like and what their overall kit is as long as it contributes to game balance. In a competitive game that's trying to be an eSport, it's foolish to believe that themes and gameplay are separate and conflicting entities, rather than ones that can empower and support each other. Back in the day when Morello was in our old thread, one of his "agree to disagree" points was that since League was competitive, they had to make things less thematic so that they would work from a gameplay perspective. Ultimately, the problem wasn't with themes, but rather with a lack of creative solutions - but now we have a big hungry catfish man that is unique in his ability to carry stuff around in his mouth, a star dragon that creates massive galaxies as he roams the map, etc. And even if you don't care about whether a champion looks the way they play, [Riot does](https://youtu.be/Vs1yD8m2fvE?t=149). >Another point you make is that micro skill should matter more than macro skill. If i'm not getting it wrong, you want less game mechanics and more champion mechanics. I 100% disagree with this philosophy. A good dota player will be good at the majority of roles, they are good dota players. If a game followed the design philosophy you're trying to push with this post, a player could only be a good Irelia player or a good Nocturne player. Good game design is subjective, and in a comment, you mention that it can be objectified, and I think you are absolutely full of shit for saying so. The point here was that a competitive game should be more about players fighting other players, not players fighting the game mechanics. You should deny your enemy farm by engaging in favorable trades or using whatever tools you have to force them away from your minions, not by last-hitting them before your opponent does. Jungling should be more about which champs you take and when and why (smiting Wolf for vision or Krugs to take a tower), rather than pulling monsters out of their spawn at exactly the right moment so new ones respawn in their place. A good start to laning phase should have to do more with team coordination and individual skill rather than knowing how to creep block (or even knowing about it in the first place). >One of the things I LOVE about dota is being able to play to my macro focused strengths and BE the guy who denies opponents farm and becomes superman from being up 80+ cs, I feel satisfied knowing that I am better at the game of dota than they are, and feel rewarded knowing I can fucking murder them with no counterplay because of it. People find things fun for different reasons. For Riot, it seems the reasons they want LoL to be fun are because of how players interact with each other, hence why many of the weird and arbitrary mechanics of its Warcraft 3 predecessor were the first things to be removed. It's good and fine to like winning with minimal interaction in a competitive, multiplayer game, it's also good and fine to like spawn camping more than objective control in a FPS game of capture-the-flag. However, it seems that the League of Legends Riot wants, and ultimately, the League of Legends I think that could be, might not be the best for you. >They're the perfect mix of micro and macro focused play, but your comment in regards to being 80cs up and having more items being toxic makes me seem like you either don't understand the point of powerspike management. Thing is here, Riot wants LoL to be an eSport. They want it to be an eSport really, really badly. I won't elaborate much on this because I tend to be pretty long-winded, but perhaps consider why the gameplay moments they advertise are fights between champions, and not just a slow time-lapse of one guy's CS. >In a comment, you mention Sion being bad champ design because of his shield not fitting his lore. Correction - it's the shield not fitting his *thematic identity* as informed by his *visual appearance*. In fact, one of the main arguments he pushes is that you absolutely should not have to read 130 short stories to understand how to play League of Legends. >His W is all about harnessing excess from the furnace in his gut and turning them into force, both for the shield and the explosion. That seems like something you'd have to explain to somebody before they actually understood it, unlike "big guy with axe hit you with big axe" or "zombie warrior comes back to life to punch you." >You say Lissandra is shoehorned in to give dota a Puck orb? I say the game could use the puck orb and that that doesn't define Liss by a longshot, her potent engage tools as a tanky mage are what make Liss Liss, not her ability to bring a Puck orb. KIT DESIGN IS NOT A PROBLEM. The game could use a Puck orb! Doesn't mean you should make Gangplank teleport to an orange he throws. Puck orb makes sense on Puck because he's a magical trickster, and the Puck orb is a very magical and tricky tool. Also, isn't that Puck orb...kinda a big part of "her potent engage tools as a tanky mage"? A super long-range gap-closer seems to be pretty useful when it comes to initiating fights after all - unless the enemy team is polite enough to let her just walk right into the middle of their formation before popping her CC, anyway. You never know! (Continued in another response due to word limit, although here are [some Riot posts](http://imgur.com/a/wDgiC) that support my claims to hold you over while I write the next one)
d3gDee (NA)
: I believe you're not looking at the whole picture when it comes to game design in the MOBA genre and therein lies your mistake. Using all of the knowledge you have learned, would you honestly say you could create a MOBA based on what you have given us? Your post is titled "Why league of legends isn't as awesome as it could be," yet most of it is your insight on character design and the disconnect between visuals and gameplay, I'm not saying it's not important don't get me wrong, but I don't think you need to emphasize it so much. As a casual player of these games, some of my most favorite champs/heros/gods attracted me because of how they played and how their abilities allowed me to have an impact on the game (Nasus in LoL, Sand King in DotA 2, Ymir in Smite for my personal favorites). Would it be cool if they were 100% thematic/readable? Absolutely. But does it matter at the end of the day, when i'm in the heat of the moment having fun and making cool plays? Not too much. So, in Riot's defence, they can afford to sacrifice some clarity and accessibility as long as the game is fun and it has strategic depth. Ask yourself, would you rather play the most perfect MOBA and it not be fun or play an imperfect one that's a blast?
>I believe you're not looking at the whole picture when it comes to game design in the MOBA genre and therein lies your mistake. Using all of the knowledge you have learned, would you honestly say you could create a MOBA based on what you have given us? Your post is titled "Why league of legends isn't as awesome as it could be," yet most of it is your insight on character design and the disconnect between visuals and gameplay, I believe the point here is that League of Legends isn't as awesome as it could be, *because* of those disconnects. You see, it's not just us complaining that Garen's boots don't get wet when he's walking through river, it's that these themes and visuals are the perfect tools for doing a lot of what Riot wants to do. With a strong thematic hook, you can create champions with unique mechanics informed by that theme, unique strengths and weaknesses created by those mechanics, and unique strategic niches as a consequence of those strengths and weaknesses. It's all connected! >Ask yourself, would you rather play the most perfect MOBA and it not be fun or play an imperfect one that's a blast? I'd rather play the most perfect MOBA that is a blast because of the qualities that make it perfect. Being able to pick any champion and do something wholly unique and strategically impactful as them, getting to step into the shoes of a big, grumpy treant whenever I lock in as Maokai, discovering all the crazy combinations that could only happen because of the crazy strengths (and correlating weaknesses) innate to every champion... In other words, the possibility of the "perfect" MOBA like this is why I do all the work I do! (I suppose as a side example, Splatoon was originally about rabbits who shot black ink with squirtguns and swam around in it...it all didn't really start working out until they decided to turn them into squids instead! Squids, who shoot ink and can camoflage, doesn't that make perfect sense? It's these sort of connections, these things that just *click*, that allow weird concepts like swimming around in ink to be so iconic and memorable.)
Myrmiron (EUW)
: Just droppin a comment so I find this again later to actually read it all.
> [{quoted}](name=Myrmiron,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2016-03-19T08:14:03.714+0000) > > Just droppin a comment so I find this again later to actually read it all. And here's a little notification, just in case! {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Nefas (NA)
: We are worlds apart in terms of what is feasible and desirable in LoL. I have no interest in continuing a conversation that is not productive. So many of your statements are so wildly unbelievable and ridiculous that I don't want to even engage with you.
> [{quoted}](name=Nefas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=001e0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-19T22:54:55.453+0000) > > We are worlds apart in terms of what is feasible and desirable in LoL. I have no interest in continuing a conversation that is not productive. So many of your statements are so wildly unbelievable and ridiculous that I don't want to even engage with you. You aren't obliged to reply, but I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: I wish you good luck surviving solo lane fiddle with that kit as it's stated as one of his preferred roles. If he can't clear waves, how he's supposed to place these scarecrows on other side of map?
> [{quoted}](name=Zuom,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0005000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-20T00:13:18.205+0000) > > I wish you good luck surviving solo lane fiddle with that kit as it's stated as one of his preferred roles. If he can't clear waves, how he's supposed to place these scarecrows on other side of map? Likewise, [I don't believe that champions should have every tool they want](http://imgur.com/BcoTwEe), because it allows me to make what they do that much more impactful. For example, most assassins right now have really good waveclear, so they can shove the lane and start roaming - however, this means they have good multi-target damage (for waveclear) AND good single-target damage (for assassinating), which isn't too great! Taking that away from them makes it so that champions who have waveclear as an intended strength can feel better about contributing that, rather than it being something they do that Zed also does, except with the added ability to gap-close on people and burst them to hell. While Fiddlesticks wouldn't be able to clear waves as easily as [Brand](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-brand-burning_26.html) or [Ziggs](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-ziggs-hexplosive.html), he can roam a lot better than they do, which is where the interesting gameplay and matchups come in. What can Fiddlesticks do to give himself opportunities to roam? What can his opponents do to keep him stuck in his lane? Perhaps he can frequently trade and roam when his opponent recalls, or call his jungler in to man the lane (and poor ol' Amumu gets a little more coin in his pocket) and place a scarecrow near Dragon or even his own Blue buff. Perhaps his opponent could take the risk of overextending and push so hard that Fidds can't step away from his turret, or call in his jungler to help chunk that tower the moment Fidds walks away from it. It's also for this reason that Maokai trades his long-ranged sapling and gap-closer (and even his basic mobility at times) for the ability to dominate the immediate area around him, that Brand gives up his ability to stun single targets in exchange for even more intense damage against clustered enemy teams. This sort of design is what allows players to make interesting decisions with items, team compositions, and their own gameplay - whether they decide to bolster their strengths, cover their weaknesses, mitigate enemy strengths, capitalize on enemy weaknesses, and so on.
Nefas (NA)
: I agree League has plenty of problems but I see very few of the ideas listed in this posts as solutions. Changing champion kits that have been viewed as acceptable and healthy for years in order to make champs meet your very personal and subjective matching to lore and thematic identity is a horribly unrealistic idea that would enrage champion fan bases. Getting rid of iconic abilities on a champ that are integral to kit functionality is something only someone who has no actual experience in managing a game would suggest. You are so caught up in a theoretical ideal that you haven't considered any of the practical implications for what you are suggesting - not impact on existing players who might have extremely different preferences than you when it comes to their favorite champions' lore/theme/gameplay identity (I disagree with and dislike literally every single suggestion you have regarding current Sion) nor the production constraints of reimagining practically every champion in the game, judging by your commentary. The champion redesigns I read - Heimer, Viktor - were so incredibly convoluted and overly complicated that they couldn't even remotely function in the game. They violate so many rules about readability and burden of knowledge and are, like so much else here, too theoretically engineered and unrealistic.
Perhaps I can tackle this from a design point of view! >Changing champion kits that have been viewed as acceptable and healthy for years in order to make champs meet your very personal and subjective matching to lore and thematic identity is a horribly unrealistic idea that would enrage champion fan bases. I will be the first to admit that there are thousands of possible Brand kits that would work fine in accordance to Riot's criteria and my own (which at this point is pretty much just Riot's with a few things - like mechanical cohesion - tacked on). That being said! Champion themes are exactly what you see when you look at the splash art and in-game model, so me basing Maokai's kit on a tree theme or basing Fiddlesticks on a scarecrow theme doesn't seem too crazy. Of course there are more abstract cases, such as Nasus or Lulu. In those cases, I instead opted to use some part of the champion's more fantastical theming as a basis. Nasus, based on the Egyptian weigher of souls, gets stronger when he collects souls and has an even mix of defense and offense on his kit; Lulu's theme is tied with her fairy companion and whimsical nature, so her spell effects are telegraphed by Pix's location, and are more effective when Lulu is constantly switching targets. If you have any beef with, say, Alistar's gameplay being modeled more after a rampaging bull (which is kinda [the picture you get](http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/54/Alistar_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150109040256) from his splash), or want to bark at me for making Maokai more about spreading his roots, trust me, I've heard it all before! Unless you can convince me that Caitlyn doesn't have a sniper rifle or Fiddlesticks isn't a scarecrow, I'll have to keep things the way they are. >Getting rid of iconic abilities on a champ that are integral to kit functionality is something only someone who has no actual experience in managing a game would suggest. I don't know, [Riot seems more than happy to do it](http://imgur.com/JSwQBwo)! And I don't know about you, but Brand being able to stun single targets with his fire doesn't seem to have much to do with his "kit functionality" when the function of his new kit is to keep as many people as possible, as on fire as possible, for as long as possible. That being said, however, I like using iconic abilities or visuals as solid footing when it comes to redesigning the more abstractly-themed champions. For instance, [Nasus](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-nasus-curator-of-sands.html) and [Veigar](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-veigar-tiny-master-of.html) still want to last-hit with their Qs, [Shyvana](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-shyvana-half-dragon.html) still loves to chase people down and turn into a dragon, and [Malzahar](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-malzahar-prophet-of.html) is now more about his Voidlings than ever before. [Singed](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-singed-mad-chemist.html) doesn't get to flip people anymore, though - sorry! >You are so caught up in a theoretical ideal that you haven't considered any of the practical implications for what you are suggesting - not impact on existing players who might have extremely different preferences than you when it comes to their favorite champions' lore/theme/gameplay identity (I disagree with and dislike literally every single suggestion you have regarding current Sion) nor the production constraints of reimagining practically every champion in the game, judging by your commentary. To the contrary - I have considered the complications and implications that come with my work, hence why I have a little disclaimer on the top of every single redesign I've done. And if Riot is going to stick around as long as they plan to, time isn't an issue - which leaves us with money (which Riot has plenty of, if they can afford to [buy DotA2 out](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YXEajpaZ7M) of eSports tournaments) and people (which [Riot is quick to admit](http://imgur.com/a/PFPuD) they're not the best at managing). Is it going to be difficult, and shake the hell out of both the developers and the community? Yes - more than you know. But if I didn't believe that it would result in a game good enough to be worth the trouble, I wouldn't be throwing so much of my time into this. That being said, there are [companies](http://www.valvesoftware.com/) cranking out much more content at a much faster pace despite having 10% of the employees Riot does, so I have faith that Riot can do some damn amazing stuff once they hit full speed. >The champion redesigns I read - Heimer, Viktor - were so incredibly convoluted and overly complicated that they couldn't even remotely function in the game. They violate so many rules about readability and burden of knowledge and are, like so much else here, too theoretically engineered and unrealistic. Could you elaborate for me? With Heimer, I'm not too sure what you're saying, here - little man puts down machines: one that shoots, one that heals, and one that follows. He can sometimes make them do these things harder. I can start to see what you mean with Viktor, and he is easily one of my most complex designs. But even then, he's based entirely on the three visual elements of his kit - he can decide to be more about his laser arm, or more about his mechanical gauntlet, or more about his electricity stick. Even on paper, the function of what he does is fairly simple - there are a lot of words (which are far greater than what would ultimately be included in his tooltips), but their meanings are straightforward, albeit very specific. Contrast that with Jhin, who not only breaks one of the core game mechanics (basic attacks are only inhibited by range and attackspeed), but who also uses several stats in ways that don't entirely make sense (attackspeed doesn't make him reload faster, but instead gives him more AD), and, well, you can [watch this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpbFuZSPXZw) and get the general [JHINst](http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/476380923-bad-jokes-deserve-rotten-tomatoes-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=EMD4SoxGFCO9Bco%2F2JUOCnXwhdv4Q6bEdfyvySPO%2FEqR5Eo1ArwrLtH3NX2lXN5H) of what I mean. Champions like Yasuo have massive tooltips because of the sheer volume of the mechanics present in their kit (his passive makes him cast abilities for free AND doubles his crit AND makes his crits weaker AND builds up a unique resource when he moves WHICH can be buffed by his Wind Wall AND he gets a shield when it's full - on top of his Q following all sorts of crazy rules and being a new ability every third hit and his Wind Wall blocking some things and not blocking others etc. etc. etc.). At worst, my tooltips are wordy because I need to specify elements that would otherwise be very clear when implemented in-game due to visual effects ([Vladimir's](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-vladimir-crimson.html) Q stacks [being represented by his blood ball](http://rfmelley.wix.com/lolredesignproject#!vladimir/c1r6j), for example). Hope this clears things up for you!
: I was looking at few of your proposed reworks, and honestly they are bad. Fiddle with 1 damage ability outside his r, because no sane person would attack scarecrow. Heimer that has to wait entire creep wave to cast an ability on lvl 1.
>I was looking at few of your proposed reworks, and honestly they are bad. Fiddle with 1 damage ability outside his r, because no sane person would attack scarecrow. I know League has gotten people used to champs with pretty much everything, but when you limit what a champion can do, it turns out that what's left can be pretty cool! With Fiddles, for example - as you've said, if "no sane person would attack scarecrow" then he can be pretty much wherever he wants on the map and scare the enemy team away from the entire jungle. If he places them at Dragon, Baron, etc., if no sane person truly would attack the scarecrows, then I suppose you've got some free objectives for your team! Of course, I'm assume it's for that reason people WOULD want to attack scarecrows, even if it's a bit risky; Fiddlesticks' contribution to the team is a largely psychological one, and while he does have utility out the ass with 1) what are essentially free wards, 2) insane map mobility if left unchecked, 3) single-target vision denial, and 4) potentially massive AoE fears, his damage needs to suffer because of that...Although I'm sure you know how much a Fiddlesticks ult can hurt. Want a mage who can control the map and scare enemies away from objectives? Who else to pick than League's resident scarecrow! Want a mage who is more about damage in some shape or form? [You](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-brand-burning_26.html) [still](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-ezreal-prodigal.html) [have](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-ryze-rogue-mage.html) [plenty](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/04/champion-redesign-xerath-magus-ascendant.html) [of](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-ziggs-hexplosive.html) [options](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-veigar-tiny-master-of.html) [there](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-ahri-nine-tailed-fox.html). >Heimer that has to wait entire creep wave to cast an ability on lvl 1. To be fair, this is because the things he can create now are much more powerful than his current turrets, and have no cost associated with them beyond that Scrap count (whereas current Heim has to wait quite a while for turrets to recharge). However, if this becomes a problem, there are several convenient levers for that! For instance, if it's just about having a weak level 1 game, he could start out with X amount of Scrap so he can place something before minions even spawn. If the problem is that he just has a hard time having enough Scrap to place things at all, the cost could be reduced, or the amount he gets from minions and monsters could be increased.
: I mean this isn't anything new, but rather something that's been lightly addressed over time. This thread is just a big compilation of all those tiny little issues connecting to a bigger meaning, so it's nice seeing a megathread about such issues. Hm, and also, the problem with Riot right now isn't that they're not doing anything, but it's that things are taking *so* long to get done. Reworks take at least half a year. Any form of visual upgrades take at least a year. The pace is just so slow that it seems like they're not getting anything done, despite having such a large team. Quality versus quantity is great, but not when it's the "1 project 1 year" kind of slow. Sure, it's great to see that they're pioneering "never-seen-before-elements", such as how they dealt with storytelling and even as technical as networking and coding. But it's fairly unusual on a gaming company. Not that it's bad or anything (innovations are actually awesome), but as a gaming company things will just die down rather quickly, such as popularity and playerbase. Thoughts on that as well?
>I mean this isn't anything new, but rather something that's been lightly addressed over time. This thread is just a big compilation of all those tiny little issues connecting to a bigger meaning, so it's nice seeing a megathread about such issues. Hm, and also, the problem with Riot right now isn't that they're not doing anything, but it's that things are taking so long to get done. Reworks take at least half a year. Any form of visual upgrades take at least a year. The pace is just so slow that it seems like they're not getting anything done, despite having such a large team. Quality versus quantity is great, but not when it's the "1 project 1 year" kind of slow. And even then, when they do rule out solutions, they can at times be incomplete (Sion still explodes, although now he does a lot of cool "undead juggernaut" stuff as well) or introduce entirely new problems (the Grand Duelist has a teamfight ult that heals). >Sure, it's great to see that they're pioneering "never-seen-before-elements", such as how they dealt with storytelling and even as technical as networking and coding. But it's fairly unusual on a gaming company. Not that it's bad or anything (innovations are actually awesome), but as a gaming company things will just die down rather quickly, such as popularity and playerbase. >Thoughts on that as well? As far as narrative elements go, it'll be pretty hard to impress me with that since I used to follow Dawngate once upon a time. : P
: Terrible post...
{{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}} (Thanks for reading, though!)
: how can the recipe for fun be this longwinded/complicated. You're legit trying to tackle everything in one post. do you think your audience will really want to sit down and go through all this. truncate to the core of each facet you wish to address and devote a post to each. If you must make an all encompassing post. Make one that links the other posts you've made so people can get their bearing and select whichever they care to discuss. AKA an Index page of sorts. that youtube video is a good idea, but holy crap you speak sooo fast in it, i think i'm gonna have a seisure. It's actually an hour long video if you expect anyone to digest any of the information covered. Regurgitating and trying to cram everything into it, not sure if video helps or made it worst. when you read through something once its easy to read it fast a second time and breeze through it. I'd rather it have chapters and you took your time, preferably in order of importance. There must be somethings that outshine the rest that you'd want us to absolutely take away from all this. tbh though, going through a lot of the content you did alright, especially consider its all on your free time. just wish it was better formatted. You present/cover a lot of "problems" can you go into solutions more.
Thanks for the critique! Brevity is something we've always had an uphill battle with, but trust us - we were [a bit worse about it in the past](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3013310&page=1). : P Glad you at least think Mr. Loveheart here did alright, I'm actually kind of surprised about how much he put into this!
: Doesn't RIOT like short posts tho?
They do, but they've been known to like [the bigger ones](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3013310&page=1) every now and then. : P
Dengeden (EUW)
: > There isn't to say there are some nuances between them (Cait and Jinx like to attack more than Jhin), and of course their personalities differ, but they offer a lot of the same strategic nuggets to the team - namely, long-range poke, immobilizing traps, some form of vision, autoattack damage, and a long-range execute. That's the thing though. Jhin's W poke is less damage and more CC-chain oriented (his Q is weird), Cait's poke (Peacemaker and Ace in the Hole) is lane bully oriented and Jinx's Zap! is more of an execute than a form of poke. Their vision is, with the exception of Cait (who forces you to step onto her traps by spamming them), more of a cherry on top/QoL to make you notice your unreliable ability hit someone. Cait sucks at executing, let's be honest. Jinx executes stragglers and rarely uses them to finish off her initial target(s). Jhin's entire kit is basically an execute, he usually sets everything up himself. Champions need AA dmg or ability dmg, I don't see much of an alternative. Especially if they're playing the same role. Nor can I think of a way for traps to not CC you. And no matter how similar their kit is on paper, they are played in different fashions. Jinx's in-your-face, Jhin's back-and-forth dance, Cait's methodical&safe chip damage. > Why pick "Vel'Koz but with a shield" instead of Lux, after all? If the game warrants safety over hard CC & burst. It would be a little frustrating to have to learn an entirely new champion every time your go-to long range poke mage fell out of the meta. > I think the idea here is that ultimately, *every* champion should fulfill a specific and powerful niche, so that they don't compete over the same position. The problem right now is that there are so few 100% niche champions that they are either unused because someone else simply overpowers them with generalist strength, or they are overbuffed to compensate for that and flood the game. I don't think LoL's skillcap is high enough for that. I don't believe one's prowess at a champion can overcome strategic outplays. if a champion is too niche, the teamcomp will need to be centered around them to some extent, they might need more gold or XP. Both of which give the enemy team a lot of breathing room. > You take the characteristics that are iconic to those things (a monkey's agility and violent playfulness, a tree's sturdiness and roots) and take them to their logical extremes. That makes sense ... damn. > The main reason I have problems with Quinn performing acrobatics is that, unlike in a cutscene or any other game that doesn't limit characters to iconic 5-ability kits, she needs to have a solid theme and any ability that doesn't fit that theme only damages it. So you *would* be fine if she effectively did the same thing in-game only more thematic? Like her charging at you and smacking her crossbow across your face (in a cool way)? > Naysaying is good, especially when you do it in a very clear and direct way! What better way to tell whether an I-beam is sturdy enough than to put a few tons of force on it? Aww, that's awful nice of you : D I'll carry on. > (And thanks for taking the time to leave such thought-out feedback - if you have any other nitpicks, please let me know, since I might start updating redesigns again!) Hmm, tbh, your redesigns so unique that I couldn't think of clear criticisms without seeing gameplay. They fulfill the basic requirements of LoL's champion roster and introduce something new. I can think of something about Varus though, he seems a little too much of a bruiser to be a good marksman. In terms of balance, if he could freely flex (haha) between crit and bruiser caster á la Graves, he'd be a little too strong wouldn't he? (Not to mention that penta-AD scaling is unheard off) > The thing is, having to find the right opportunity to gap-close and nuke being her main source of "deception" (although deception is more than just surprising somebody, Another fair point. I wish I'd played during the Bilgewater event, then I'd know how effective Trickster's Glass had been. > Whoah, I didn't even know her plants could do that! : O That's because I'm a terrible excuse for a human being. I meant spell effects. > The thing I find the most disappointing about Zyra is how ephemeral her plants are. You throw 'em out, they stick around for 10 seconds, and then they're kind of...well, gone! Isn't that how plants work? They throw out seeds like there's no tomorrow and see what works. When my plants attack you, trust me, you'll know. You get slowed and/or chunked. I use the rest of her kit to disengage or reset the fight, not to burst. Her plants are surprisingly hard to kill in the chaos of sieges and teamfights. They can get focused but that's often a waste of resources. She can still become a burst mage at times but that's more of a fringe case imo. Like how utility supports or bruisers can go full tank sometimes or a tank can become a bruiser in a farm lane. >I'd prefer it if the plants lasted forever but just started weak and grew over time. That's what plants do, after all! One, sort of, plants also contest vs each other for sunlight and nutrients. Shouldn't that be their thing too then? Two, interesting. It'd be similar to setting up pink wards. (Otherwise, they'd get poked out before growing)
>And no matter how similar their kit is on paper, they are played in different fashions. Jinx's in-your-face, Jhin's back-and-forth dance, Cait's methodical&safe chip damage. As I said before, it's not as though there aren't nuances to them! Cait can be much safer in a pinch due to her net, Jinx feels absolutely manic when she gets a kill, and Jhin's fourth shot just feels so damn *deliberate* that you can't help feeling like doing a little bow when you nail someone with it. However, due to the tools they all possess, while they may feel different to play ("input," in Riot's terms), they don't add much uniqueness to the game as far as their capabilities (long-range execute etc.) or the strategic possibilities they introduce (throw traps at chokepoints and capitalize) - which are the other three parts of the triangle, the "output" and the "strategic niche." I will not argue that Jhin, Jinx, and Cait don’t have their differences, because they do! However, in a game that does not have an infinitely large roster, I feel the game would be better if - at least, within roles - everyone was as similar to each other as Caitlyn and Graves...which is to say, not at all! >If the game warrants safety over hard CC & burst. It would be a little frustrating to have to learn an entirely new champion every time your go-to long range poke mage fell out of the meta. Then this is a problem not in champions being specialized, but in the game being structured so that champions can simply "fall out" of the meta. If a strategy is so powerful that it edges other strategies out, if the game enters a state where hard CC and burst aren’t just as relevant as any other tool in the right hands, then that's on the designers to fix. Beyond balance (which I'm not too good at beyond adding the levers that people who are good with numbers can use), I hope that's something I can address with champion design! >I don't think LoL's skillcap is high enough for that. I don't believe one's prowess at a champion can overcome strategic outplays. if a champion is too niche, the teamcomp will need to be centered around them to some extent, they might need more gold or XP. Both of which give the enemy team a lot of breathing room. I'd say, without the clunky controls, without all the weird technical stuff like denying and creep stacking, without all the crazy items and extremely unforgiving mechanics, look at DotA2. This is a game where damn near every hero is niche, every hero has some reason to be picked over others in its role, even if those others are numerically "stronger" or easier to do well with. Want a tank? You'd always be able to pick Earthshaker over Pudge for his ability to destroy clustered teams, or Pudge over Earthshaker for his unmatched pick potential. Want a carry? Sniper has the longest range in the game and can execute with pinpoint accuracy, yet he can't kite as well as Drow even in his dreams, while she will never be as good an abusher as Clinkz. Of course, that isn't to say that you couldn't build an entire team around [Redesign!Brand's](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-brand-burning_26.html) [ability to](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-amumu-sad-mummy.html) [obliterate](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-twitch-plague-rat.html) [grouped-up](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/champion-redesign-zilean-chronokeeper.html) [enemies](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/champion-redesign-jarvan-iv-exemplar-of.html), or [create the](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/11/champion-redesign-braum-heart-of.html) [ultimate](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-vi-piltover-enforcer.html) [anti-dive](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html) ["Protect the Kog"](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-kogmaw-mouth-of-abyss.html) [comp](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-vi-piltover-enforcer.html), but every opposing team would have some way to deal with stuff like that (especially since stacking the same strength will leave your weaknesses exposed, hence why PTK comps in competitive games can fail if Kog gets caught out or his team doesn't react to an initiation in time). I suppose you could say that, in a game where everyone's niche, [no one will be](http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,h_802,w_1920/t_mp_quality/prrjt5npa4xuvw0mele1/ten-of-the-best-superhero-film-quotes-523344.jpg)... (And by that I mean that you're going to have to deal with strengths and weaknesses no matter who you play, so no individual champion would warrant any more special treatment than anyone else in order to succeed) >That makes sense ... damn. It also leads to some pretty cool stuff! It's one of my favorite things about [designing MOBA heroes](http://www.ryanmelley.com/#!original/cghg), honestly. >So you would be fine if she effectively did the same thing in-game only more thematic? Like her charging at you and smacking her crossbow across your face (in a cool way)? Heh, I'm not sure if that's how one may typically use a crossbow, but there is an alternative to keeping Quinn acrobatic, here. Remove the crossbow. (I'm serious!) Changing her theme from "archer + falconer" to "acrobat + falconer" (although I think a different animal - like an weasel or something - would be a better fit for an acrobat) could be a solution to this, where Quinn could have two talon-like daggers or fist weapons and divebomb enemies along with Valor. Just imagine the way a bird fights, and translate that to a human character...then add an actual bird, and now you've got one hell of a falconer! Like, think of DotA, how a guy with wolves fights like a wolf and fights WITH wolves, or how a guy with a bear...turns INTO a bear and fights with a bear. It's about finding those thematic overlaps to keep things cool but also simple! >Hmm, tbh, your redesigns so unique that I couldn't think of clear criticisms without seeing gameplay. They fulfill the basic requirements of LoL's champion roster and introduce something new. I can think of something about Varus though, he seems a little too much of a bruiser to be a good marksman. In terms of balance, if he could freely flex (haha) between crit and bruiser caster á la Graves, he'd be a little too strong wouldn't he? (Not to mention that penta-AD scaling is unheard off) That's a common criticism I get, actually, and a valid one! [I've been trying to address this at points](http://rfmelley.wix.com/lolredesignproject#!prototypes/co6q), but I don't think I'd fully be able to outside of the capacity of a Rioter (hence why I'm trying so hard to become one). As for Varus though, if this is more to do with stats and scaling, I'll be the first to admit that I'm...not really that great at that! I just take values from the Wiki, multiply/divide them in ways I think makes sense (ex. a version of Annie's fireball that did more damage would have less range/higher cooldown), and just kind of roll with it. If it's more to do with the actual gameplay, I'd say he's more in line with current Quinn (even with the backflip, which he had before it was cool ;_; ), in that he's actually quite frail, but can either - like you said - add some defensive items into his kit to mitigate some of that risk or go full glass cannon if he wants to deal with the fact that he'll get blown up if he doesn't play perfectly. That's also on top of the layer of risk/reward where he can stick to basic attacks and do less damage, or occasionally jump in and out of harm's way to maximize his output. I may need to look at this more, though, as it's quite old! >Another fair point. I wish I'd played during the Bilgewater event, then I'd know how effective Trickster's Glass had been. It created some interesting plays, and I miss it (and a lot of the event items) greatly... ;_;7 >Isn't that how plants work? They throw out seeds like there's no tomorrow and see what works. When my plants attack you, trust me, you'll know. You get slowed and/or chunked. In this case, that metaphor would translate more to "make a lot of plants because of some of them will die before they've grown" (this is how weeds like dandelions work, especially!) - but the important part of that one is that, the ones that *do* grow don't just sit around for a few precious moments before wilting. Vines for instance can take over entire houses if left to their own devices, and even the smallest flower after a few months is much larger than what it was as a sprout! I think cultivating plants for Zyra should mean more than simply pressing a button on a seed and then watching it wither after a few seconds. >One, sort of, plants also contest vs each other for sunlight and nutrients. Shouldn't that be their thing too then? While this is one of the less iconic aspects of plants, it could be introduced as a useful balancing lever should Redesign!Zyra ever become unhealthy by just spamming all her plants in the same area (although I suppose this is what the "plants do less damage to the same target" mechanic is also for); that way, rather than making her plants weaker universally, you could just encourage players to spread 'em out a bit more (which Zyra is more than capable of) instead! >Two, interesting. It'd be similar to setting up pink wards. (Otherwise, they'd get poked out before growing) Yeah, basically! Of course, you can get ballsy and place 'em where they can actually attack stuff and grow at the same time, but you'd likely need the support of plants you've already grown in safety and moved to the frontline, or a generous ally who's willing to play groundskeeper for a bit…[Perhaps one that's really good at discouraging enemies from stepping on his turf?](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html)
: > [{quoted}](name=ItemsGuy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=000500010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-18T15:44:20.270+0000) > > You're partially right - champions' themes WERE a secondary thing in the game. Lore always was (and always should be) secondary, as something that adds flavor to what we already know - Olaf is a barbarian, Gangplank is a pirate, etc. > > However, Riot is putting more and more emphasis on theme with these recent years and all their changes. Even with the upcoming mage updates, one of the big things they're focusing on is making sure that champions play more distinctly in accordance to their theme: Zyra is going to be based more around her plants, Malzahar's voidlings will play a greater role in his kit, and so on. Why do you think they'd be doing that? Is it because these themes and the mechanics they inform are what makes each champion unique? That seems to be the case here, but please let me know if you disagree. No, he's entirely right. Riot themselves have stated that they are willing to make thematic compromises for the sake of balance/good design on champions because it's more important for a champion to be healthy and viable than it is for them to be absolutely perfect with their theme. If that wasn't the case then we wouldn't have gotten so many thematically iffy abilities recently. I mean when Fiora came out they specifically said that they understood the complaints about Fiora's ult not feeling like a duelist ult, but they had to give her something like that because she needed some sort of team utility to encourage team fighting versus constant splitpushing and they needed her to have some sort of power outside of doing damage because otherwise she'd be too feast or famine. Riot can't just throw everything away and declare that thematic relevance is the only thing that matters. People care about their in-game experience - ever noticed that every complaint about a champion is how horrible they feel to play against and not about how "Lux just ruined a game I was in by not really feeling like a light mage"?
>No, he's entirely right. Riot themselves have stated that they are willing to make thematic compromises for the sake of balance/good design on champions because it's more important for a champion to be healthy and viable than it is for them to be absolutely perfect with their theme. If that wasn't the case then we wouldn't have gotten so many thematically iffy abilities recently. The problem I see with this is that it's less of "thematic cohesion and game health are at odds with each other" and more of "we couldn't find a thematically cohesive way to make this champion healthy for the game" - a lot of game design is all about finding creative solutions for multiple problems at once (which is usually referred to as "elegant design") so a lot of my nitpicks are in regards to Riot's gameplay solutions being fairly messy at times. >I mean when Fiora came out they specifically said that they understood the complaints about Fiora's ult not feeling like a duelist ult, but they had to give her something like that because she needed some sort of team utility to encourage team fighting versus constant splitpushing and they needed her to have some sort of power outside of doing damage because otherwise she'd be too feast or famine. This, I believe, comes from a misunderstanding on Riot's part that "feast-or-famine" means "this champion can't do a lot in teamfights" and "fallback patterns" means "what champions do during a teamfight." This is a lot of what Yaime is talking about when going over the whole Strategic Staleness thing, where for some reason, champions MUST have a button to press during a teamfight (that matters as much as a button a champion built for teamfighting must press), rather than having the strategic liberty to open up other possibilities for advancing the game, beyond just teamfighting. Riot is largely correct on the "no champion should really just be 100% damage" part of feast-or-famine, and I completely agree with them! If a champion really only contributes to the game by doing damage (ie. Yi - even Tryndamere at least has that nice slow), then they're either just blowing the hell out of everyone when they're ahead or barely tickling them when they're behind. Even the champions people consider "hypercarries" have some sort of situational utility, like Vayne's stun (and Kog'Maw reducing enemy resists is useful to himself for damage purposes, but it's also handy for his allies). With all that said, my main gripe is not that Fiora has a mechanic that can somehow be useful to her teamfights beyond the scope of damage, but rather, that it is at its most useful in a teamfighting scenario, is completely thematically mis-aligned, and only vaguely useful in her ideal play-pattern (duel someone and kill them) unless she's really, really behind in the fight. Something more appropriate for her, then, would be something that aids her primarily in a dueling scenario, but can also be useful to her teammates - for example, if hitting the fourth mark caused her to disarm her opponent, which would be really helpful for her in a duel (and allowed to be fairly powerful due to not resetting 5 peoples' health bars), but if that disarm were expressed as a massive damage debuff of some sort, it'd be pretty useful for her allies as well. Even if Fiora were forced to group with her team to adapt to the enemy's playstyle (which is fine and good!), her usefulness would still be in her ability to duel, say, the Vi that's trying to dive her carry - since Vi is isolating herself and Fiora ideally shouldn't be very strong against groups of opponents - and if played well, she'd also be able to prevent poor Ashe from getting obliterated because she has that massive debuff. >Riot can't just throw everything away and declare that thematic relevance is the only thing that matters. People care about their in-game experience - ever noticed that every complaint about a champion is how horrible they feel to play against and not about how "Lux just ruined a game I was in by not really feeling like a light mage"? The reason I am so adamant about theme is that I understand its connection with all of that. It's not just the icing on the cake or a fresh coat of paint on a nice car, it's the rhyme and reason that ties everything together. Strong thematic resonance is what can create the iconic strategic capabilities that make every champion unique, it's what can inform the strengths and weaknesses that allow champions to feel really powerful while still being completely fair. [Lux as a light mage](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/champion-redesign-lux-lady-of-luminosity.html?q=lux), for example, would be strong for her ability to shed some light on the fog of war and inhibit enemies she can see - so if you're having trouble against her, even if she was completely destroying you before, you can start turning the game against her by adapting to a more guerilla or ambush heavy style of play. Right now, your only real solution against a fed Lux is to not get hit by either of her CC abilities, which can be pretty hard sometimes!
Swae7 (NA)
: League is dying. The only things they can do would be to rework the game(costs a lot of money) or create a new game( also cost a lot of money.) they r not ready to do those.... I wish we could have people like you working a riot. That Zyra summoner rift interaction sounds really cool. I feel that even though this game can't be perfect, they shouldn't make us wait a year just for the same thing in every champion. I'll just like to conclude by saying Jhin was a disaster of a champion. Edit: btw kha zix passive makes sense because he is basically a predator looking for prey. (Prey is easier to catch while isolated so why not give him more damage on isolated targets?)
I can't say for sure whether League is dying or not, but they haven't been posting any playerbase or LCS/Worlds viewership data for a while, and that's a bit worrying! Most of my experience with the state of League is anecdotal, with most of my friends (even those who were fanatical about League) slowly losing interest and uninstalling - I hope this isn't indicative of the game at large, but I suppose that isn't out of the question. Games do have lifespans, after all. >I wish we could have people like you working a riot. That Zyra summoner rift interaction sounds really cool. I feel that even though this game can't be perfect, they shouldn't make us wait a year just for the same thing in every champion. I'll just like to conclude by saying Jhin was a disaster of a champion. I feel like Riot really hits the nail on the head more and more as of late, but even then, we still get Jhin as a new release in a game where Cait and Jinx already exist, and while I have some faith in the mage updates, I have a feeling that most of the champions getting changed will keep elements that players are used to, but are either at odds with the champion's gameplay (Vlad keeping his ult) or part of what makes the champ feel homogeneous (Zyra keeping her ult). Even more recent champions have thematically aligned kits, but mechanical cohesion doesn't seem to have become a pillar yet, leading to things like Jhin's Q and Kindred's ult. >Edit: btw kha zix passive makes sense because he is basically a predator looking for prey. (Prey is easier to catch while isolated so why not give him more damage on isolated targets?) I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense (it makes sense for a preying mantis to be an assassin), but the isolation damage is fairly at odds with all of the AoE and resets in his kit. I've still [redesigned him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eckoYQqdk28) around wanting to fight isolated targets (although not to the degree of Nocturne, since that seems like it should be more his thing), but in more of a strategic sense than a mechanical one - it's much more difficult to punish him in one-on-one ambushes than if he jumps on the enemy carry in the middle of their own team due to how vulnerable his assassination pattern makes him.
Rew711 (NA)
: Now, I'm not wanting to sit here and be like "this is a bull, bulls don't heal people" because what you're saying has truth. But, you can't say that because Quinn does a backflip off a enemy that it doesn't fit her. This isn't our world, dude. This is a world where magic is possible. Alister heals people, Nunu sucks up and distributes heat (no where in his lore does he do this nor learn this magic), and its never explained why Annie charmed her bear into a plush toy. I will say that there are things on some champs that make me cringe, a lot. In alphabetical order I'll list them. {{champion:34}} Moves very slowly for a flying champion. {{champion:1}} stuns enemies. Why? Why does being set on fire stun you? {{champion:268}}'s shield is weird and makes no sense, nor does it benefit him. Running into a champion and dealing damage is one thing, but the shield seems like a bit much (and got nerfed from being based on AP to bonus Health like a Tank). {{champion:53}}'s W not only speeds him up, but slows him down. Why? He's a golem. They're not fast. Even for a Robot, he could have a more fitting W. {{champion:63}} Again, why does fire stun you? {{champion:36}} Where do his fire balls come from? {{champion:245}} Its one thing to have a area field that stops time, but why does it only stop time when he's in it, why does it give him a shield, and why does it passively allow him to deal more damage. His Passive also makes me ponder, as its a 3 hit combo passive that gives him bonus MS and deals bonus damage on a third hit. {{champion:28}} For someone who is "the most deadly assassin" she obviously doesn't have a deadly pillar of spikes. {{champion:81}} Why does he have a ability to teleport? {{champion:9}} Why can he heal himself over time by sucking the life of a enemy? {{champion:105}} Why is he untouchable when on his staff? {{champion:41}} Why do oranges heal him? {{champion:150}} Why does his W deal % health damage? {{champion:40}} Why do winds increase your AD? But, that's just a few of them. Reason is, (although some do need to be looked into) its not our world. In their world, magic is often used and can be used in various ways. And having abilities based off a lore isn't bad. And a pure, all based on one aspect of a champion theme can make for some boring champions if you're not careful. What makes them a champion if all they do is what a normal person would do? I agree with your post, but don't push for some soft thematic changes and try and go for the ones that (in my opinion) give off bad games. I'm not going to get into that.
Now, I certainly won't say that a fantasy world has to 100% make sense. I don't understand how half the Stands in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, but I can't say it isn't a damn fun read! League of Legends, however, is a fast-paced competitive game with well over 100 characters, so it might be good if players can look at any one of those characters (or more likely than not, the other 9 that are in any given match with them) and get the basic gist. Alistar being a magic bull (or "minotaur" in this case) should mean that he does bull stuff but cooler than bulls do it, Quinn should do cool falcon stuff that real falconers can't do (like flying with Valor or having such strong communication with him - as an ex-falconer, I can say that birds of prey just kind of do what they want!), and so on. Anivia - I agree with you on this one, although I think something along the lines of designing her more after a secretary bird while having her use her wings to whip up arctic winds could be a solution to her that doesn't require giving her mobility. That being said, there are a thousand "cryophoenix" kits that could work, and for instance, something like Aurelion Sol's W -> E combo could make sense and be pretty cool on her. Annie - This is actually a big gripe I have with Annie and Brand! Fire can do a lot of cool things, but freezing people in place isn't one of 'em. Azir - His huge mobility in general kind of plays at odds with his territorial gameplay (he should be strong where is soldiers are at the cost of not really being able to move around that much); that, and he seems like he should always want to keep his enemies on the other side of his soldiers. Blitzcrank - I'd actually say that something along the lines of kicking into overdrive and then having to cool down makes sense for any mechanical thing (think of opening up 20 big programs on your computer and then having to let the fans cool it off for a while). As well, having to suffer for momentary mobility makes sense as the kind of mobility a large champion would have (granted it makes sense that they'd be moving, so something like that on Maokai or Yorick wouldn't make sense due to theming). That being said, huge mobility on a champion with a long-range pull is't great, considering that the intended counterplay to that is moot when Blitz can rapidly position for it (or just run up to you and lose it). Mundo - Also this! It's just kind of random. Ekko - Stealing speed makes sense (slowing enemies down and speeding them up), but yeah, the time zone is really mechanically contrived and unintuitive in how it works, even though it makes sense from a purely mechanical perspective (get a more powerful effect when you take risks etc.). Evelyn - I know, right! Why does a sneaky assassin have an ult that's most effective against the exact thing she wants to steer clear of? (This thing being clustered up groups of high-health enemies) Ezreal - I'd argue that any mobility Ezreal has could be attributed to him being a "magical explorer" - that being said, a little blink is a really lame version of that, and champs like Bard and Aurelion Sol feel more like explorers than he does. He's less *The Prodigal Explorer* and more *The Prodigal Guy Who Shoots Magic Stuff*. Fiddlesticks - Doesn't really make sense for a scarecrow, huh! They're meant to scare people away, not stick a *straw* in them and suck 'em dry. Fizz - I'd attribute that to him "dodging" attacks by jumping on his pole weapon (like how Vlad dodges attacks by turning into blood or Yi dodges attacks by moving really fast), but then that brings the question why a fish-themed champion is doing that (rather than being slippery for more fish-like reasons, like slipping out of CC). Gangplank - Oranges are good for your health! Maybe I've played too many video games, but I don't think it's a stretch to associate eating food with some sort of heal or positive buff. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the rest of his kit (being a tricky, underhanded pirate) beyond meme status, though.... Gnar - I think it's more of a mechanical thing - the important thing here is that he's doing this damage by constantly hitting people with his boomerang, which is the thematic aspect. It also makes sense, I suppose, that Mini Gnar does consistent damage that is dangerous when ignored but not especially devastating on its own (and having him be able to deal competitive damage to tanky targets without % health damage would mean he'd absolutely blow up squishies, which might work for Mega Gnar, but not Mini Gnar).
: This needs more upvotes. GET THIS TO THE FRONT PAGE AND MAKE RIOT SEE THIS {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Thanks for the support, my dude! (And for reminding me that Riot has these cool emotes!) {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
SHlTBUG (NA)
: I've gotta say, I'm really surprised by the 3 replies I've gotten from you two today. It really cleared up a lot of things, and I looked into what you are doing a bit more. My opinion now is that you are doing really good work and have a lot of good points. League isn't as awesome as it could be, and you've clearly done amazing stuff here. I still don't think that League is dying, because that implies that it is getting worse whereas I'm pretty sure both you and Yaime have said it's getting better. You've successfully converted me though, and I have a ton of respect for you guys. Keep it up. By the way, for some context: The reason I try to defend Riot whenever I can is that these Boards are too often filled with mindless hate on Riot or people who complain yet don't understand the way things are. I end up getting too far on the Riot side sometimes, but it's just because I don't like the flame. You two have clearly done a ton of work and know what you are doing, though.
Not gonna lie, I'm getting a little teary right now. Sorry if I snapped at you earlier - due to the nature of these boards, I have to repeat myself a lot, but I shouldn't take frustrations from previous conversations into our one-on-one (or two-on-one, I suppose). >I still don't think that League is dying, because that implies that it is getting worse whereas I'm pretty sure both you and Yaime have said it's getting better. "League Is Dying!" is probably a liiittle bit of an exaggeration, but I think the meaning behind it is less of "League is getting a lot worse" (whereas it gets a little better with each update), and more of "more people seem displeased with League now than they have before." It's still an incredibly small sample group, but the people I knew as diehard League fans won't even talk about the game anymore, popular gaming figures are expressing the sentiment of "League is trash" as though it's common knowledge (and comments on YouTube videos seem to agree), Riot has stopped telling us how many people are tuning into LoL eSports or even just playing the game (which they were very eager to do in years prior), and so on. It kind of worries me, because I love League a lot! >You've successfully converted me though, and I have a ton of respect for you guys. Keep it up. Trust me when I say I really, really appreciate it - that being said, you're pretty solid when it comes to looking at things critically and not just taking things at face value. If there's anything that seems off about any of our work or proposed solutions, please let me know! A lot of this stuff is a few years old, and I've learned a lot since then - my work is far from perfect, so if fresh eyes can point out old flaws, that would certainly be doing me a favor. >By the way, for some context: The reason I try to defend Riot whenever I can is that these Boards are too often filled with mindless hate on Riot or people who complain yet don't understand the way things are. I end up getting too far on the Riot side sometimes, but it's just because I don't like the flame. You two have clearly done a ton of work and know what you are doing, though. Heh, I know what you mean! Blind praise and blind hate are equally damage, which is why I'm so happy when I see thoughtful praise and thorough criticism (even if it can be a bit harsh). It all comes from a passionate place, though, so even when people yell at me because they're mad that I want to change their main, they probably have a valid point somewhere (but sometimes you really gotta dig for it). In all, thanks for spending so much time commenting in this thread, and feel free to stick around!
Shenmue (NA)
: @yaime loveheart i watched ur whole video "good job man" as myself an 2009 player i find league today complete crap for the reasons you said in your post and video but i am pretty sure nothing will happen. first of all the community is almost dead already, there is more peoples whatching league Esport than play the actual game, well lets say thats what riot want since its profitable and you don't have to do any hard work for your community all you have to do is keep up a show. i guess its depend planning but not as much as keeping a whole community (players not only whatchers) involving in. they actualy should start removing champions from the game, every week there should be a removed champ community voted away from the game this champ could come back 2-3 months later the cicle would actualy give us more diversity. its a hate and love relationship with league of legend thats sad.
It's unfortunate that League and Riot have left people with such cynical outlooks - honestly, I don't think any of my college buddies play League anymore, and the friends I play League with are trying to slowly pull me to other games. League (and Riot) holds a special place in my heart, so if it really isn't doing too well, I'd like to do whatever I can to help make it better again - even if that means busting my ass and becoming a Rioter. If that time comes, I hope League becomes a game you can love again!
Dengeden (EUW)
: I have to admit, I love those champion redesigns. Kudos. Wukong seems randomly OP and he still has invisibility but what do I know? > I'm not saying I deny there aren't differences. They are different champions after all. However, their play patterns and their niche and what they offer to a team, really, is very, very similar. They all spam their wave clear abilities and preemptively use their traps instead of reactively ... can't say I blame them. Other than that, Jhin is a calculating sniper, Jinx is a crazed gun(wo)man, Cait is the logical soldier who keeps you at arm's length. They may need to fulfill identical requirements as marksmen but their playstyle is inherently different. > This ''how long is my intention is revealed'' only applies to rock, paper, scissors because it is based on luck. Vision is pretty luckbased if you have no control over it or hope your opponent makes the wrong assessments when they have vision control. >Player skill in League would be the most important factor. So, yes, sure, some champions against other champions might have an advantage over the other (which exists in current league as well), but the game would still be very much playable. I guess but there's very little champion based skill to rotating around objectives correctly, which is how most games are won. > Except these similar kits result in champions armwrestling with each other to be the best at the same role. Ghostcrawler has many, many points on this. I doubt that this is as much of an issue as the fact that there's only one prevalent playstyle in pro play, which leads to its lacking champion diversity. Either farm forever or advance your early game. Either control sidelanes or wrest control over one lane. I'm sure there's more. In soloQ however, you can pick Ziggs over Lux for his mobility. Lux over Velk for her shielding. Velk over Xerath for more burst. etc. > This is the exact reason why they've decided to lay further emphasis on Quinn and letting her be the roaming marksmen, Graves the marksman that gets up very close to deal damage with his shotgun, etcetera. Only problem with that is now you'd only pick Quinn, Graves or others because some champions don't fulfill such a specific and powerful niche. > Because it not only helps the readability and accessibility of the game, but also improves on making sure the champion delivers the most powerful experience it could possibly deliver. Different cultures will have different expectations when they look at the champion roster. Riot literally can't meet all of those. Wukong's Eastern namesake could not only clone himself, he could transform into other mammals as well. Imagine if we'd gotten that. Why can't Quinn be acrobatic because she's a falconer? It's not like Valor will be very skittish about her flopping around, he's used to combat. Would you be fine with her sweeping her opponent's legs under them or something to that effect? > Except her aspect of deceiving is more of a cherry on top of the cake rather than the thing she's about entirely, I'm not so sure about that, if both LB and her opponent know what she does, she'll have a harder time going "lol Q-R" and need to think about how and when to Mimick. (I still love her redesign but I'm here to naysay) >Zyra would become a plant mage that's all about her taking care of her plants and growing them until they are strong enough to wreck Which is exactly how I play Zyra, only I have my plants "grow" by stacking on-hit effect items using gold. Not that that can't be bursty but it definitely has the feel of a plant lady with an evergrowing sphere of influence.
>I have to admit, I love those champion redesigns. Kudos. Wukong seems randomly OP and he still has invisibility but what do I know? He is an old one! I may have to revisit him sometime and clip whatever seems to be excessive (which in this case looks to be the stealth). Ultimately he should be tricky in a characteristically monkey-like way, but fall a bit flat when it comes to direct confrontations or less cluttered one-on-one fights. >They all spam their wave clear abilities and preemptively use their traps instead of reactively ... can't say I blame them. Other than that, Jhin is a calculating sniper, Jinx is a crazed gun(wo)man, Cait is the logical soldier who keeps you at arm's length. They may need to fulfill identical requirements as marksmen but their playstyle is inherently different. There isn't to say there are some nuances between them (Cait and Jinx like to attack more than Jhin), and of course their personalities differ, but they offer a lot of the same strategic nuggets to the team - namely, long-range poke, immobilizing traps, some form of vision, autoattack damage, and a long-range execute. They could be a *lot* more different, but unfortunately, they aren't. >I doubt that this is as much of an issue as the fact that there's only one prevalent playstyle in pro play, which leads to its lacking champion diversity. Either farm forever or advance your early game. Either control sidelanes or wrest control over one lane. I'm sure there's more. In soloQ however, you can pick Ziggs over Lux for his mobility. Lux over Velk for her shielding. Velk over Xerath for more burst. etc. The thing is, though, they are three ultimately *really* similar champions with "a little more of X/Y/Z" rather than champions who are fully unique from one another. Why pick "Vel'Koz but with a shield" instead of Lux, after all? >Only problem with that is now you'd only pick Quinn, Graves or others because some champions don't fulfill such a specific and powerful niche. I think the idea here is that ultimately, *every* champion should fulfill a specific and powerful niche, so that they don't compete over the same position. The problem right now is that there are so few 100% niche champions that they are either unused because someone else simply overpowers them with generalist strength, or they are overbuffed to compensate for that and flood the game. >Different cultures will have different expectations when they look at the champion roster. Riot literally can't meet all of those. Wukong's Eastern namesake could not only clone himself, he could transform into other mammals as well. Imagine if we'd gotten that. Why can't Quinn be acrobatic because she's a falconer? It's not like Valor will be very skittish about her flopping around, he's used to combat. Would you be fine with her sweeping her opponent's legs under them or something to that effect? Hence why in the rework, I aimed to only keep the elements that cohered well with his "tricky monkey" theme - extending staff and clones were a yes, turning into a bull or having stone skin (like in his current passive) were a no. It's basically "what powers would a magic monkey have?" just as Maokai is "what powers would a magic tree have?" You take the characteristics that are iconic to those things (a monkey's agility and violent playfulness, a tree's sturdiness and roots) and take them to their logical extremes. The main reason I have problems with Quinn performing acrobatics is that, unlike in a cutscene or any other game that doesn't limit characters to iconic 5-ability kits, she needs to have a solid theme and any ability that doesn't fit that theme only damages it. For example, even though Brand is fairly well-built, he'd be less of a fire mage if his ult just made him walk up to somebody and deck them across the face. Instead of a cool ability that only a falconer would have, Quinn does a backflip, which would feel more at home on a character who was more "[archery + acrobatics](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/champion-redesign-varus-arrow-of.html?q=Varus)" instead of "archery + bird" (and going over three thematic tie-ins really strains things as far as holisticity and readability go). >I'm not so sure about that, if both LB and her opponent know what she does, she'll have a harder time going "lol Q-R" and need to think about how and when to Mimick. (I still love her redesign but I'm here to naysay) Naysaying is good, especially when you do it in a very clear and direct way! What better way to tell whether an I-beam is sturdy enough than to put a few tons of force on it? The thing is, having to find the right opportunity to gap-close and nuke being her main source of "deception" (although deception is more than just surprising somebody, it's making them believe something that isn't true - for example, making them think she's Malphite while the real Malphite prepares to flank them) makes her no more of *The Deceiver* than Fizz or Diana or Pantheon! Fizz is, like, "tricky" at best (hence *The Tidal Trickster*). >Which is exactly how I play Zyra, only I have my plants "grow" by stacking on-hit effect items using gold. Not that that can't be bursty but it definitely has the feel of a plant lady with an evergrowing sphere of influence. Whoah, I didn't even know her plants could do that! : O The thing I find the most disappointing about Zyra is how ephemeral her plants are. You throw 'em out, they stick around for 10 seconds, and then they're kind of...well, gone! Even if it meant that she was weaker when it came to just off-handedly adding them to a damage combo (which is how most people play her), I'd prefer it if the plants lasted forever but just started weak and grew over time. That's what plants do, after all! (And thanks for taking the time to leave such thought-out feedback - if you have any other nitpicks, please let me know, since I might start updating redesigns again!)
Levik (NA)
: Then isn't Alistar's theme the gentle giant? There is nothing about Edmund's visuals that says he would be gentle, if anything his visual + resource (which would still be in game visual) is more prone to bring up images of the Hulk. The only reason why anyone would know Edmund as a gentle giant would be if they read his lore. My criticism of Zyra is that she retains her team fight aspects with her same (but empowered) line root and what seems like an insane damaging ult. By being feast or famine, I do not mean in a specific engagement, I mean the whole game. If Zyra gets behind in her plants, she will be useless. Her Ultimate will have no value with no plants and her damage will be lackluster (otherwise she will just be broken >> 125%). Yi may just get instagibbed for a while, but unless you just get completely steamrolled (which happens) Yi will be useful once he hits his item power spikes. Overloaded can mean that the kit excels at too much (Kalista, Lee) or there is just too much in the kit. Nocturne has fears, silences, stealth, insane sticking power, amazing dueling, and even decent team fighting power (aoe fear). If you are isolated, you will die.; you will be silenced, instantly feared, unable to run away, and dead. Nocturne is already good at punishing out of position Champions, but this is taken to an unhealthy degree. Most of the kits you have designed have these empowered abilities and none that I could see were any less oppressive. In your description of Territorial and Control, many Territorial Champions will become a subset of Control Champions. Zyra may have "global" presence, but once she moves all those plants to one area, she will become an insane Territorial one. Rek'Sai would be Control, but also Aggressive. So unless you make all Champions adhere to only one aspect, you will never have a true power triangle. Heimerdinger is probably the best fitting Territorial Champion, but he falls to heavy dive Champions like Olaf, Irelia, and Yasuo. Actually, Territorial is probably has ability to include the largest amount of Champions if you include someone like Darius. Does that make Kennen Territorial? Gangplank? Both of those Champions also easily fit into other categories. Your reworked Soraka also fits into both Territorial and Control with her ability to buff and heal nearby allies as well as one at a global range. Where is your data for these claims that more people are bored of the 5v5 teamfights? Posts on the forums as of late are really complaining about split-pushing and Zz'rot portal causing stagnation. More people posting on the forums is hardly concrete data since content players are not prone to post about how much fun they are having. Furthermore, more players increase the amount of forum posts so all your data could suggest is that there are more people playing the game. Riot has stated before that the players who post on these forums are a small vocal minority of the playerbase. I would rather see Champions have a fall back pattern of play when they are shut down as opposed to being useless and unless you pose a better way, there will be none. Will riot keep working on kits to accomplish this? Probably. Finally, I would pose that Fiora's ultimate is fitting. It is called "Grand Challenge" being that this is a large spectacle as it is a duel. When Fiora wins there is a mass celebration that is held by not only Fiora, but her team. Should there be some penalty if you fail the challenge? Maybe, but that is a better placed argument than what you posed. Tahm is a horrible example for a non-team fighting kit. Not only can he save allies, but he is an imposing meat shield and a massive disruptor. There are also many Champions that are not press R to win.
>Then isn't Alistar's theme the gentle giant? There is nothing about Edmund's visuals that says he would be gentle, if anything his visual + resource (which would still be in game visual) is more prone to bring up images of the Hulk. The only reason why anyone would know Edmund as a gentle giant would be if they read his lore. I don't know man! Alistar looks pretty angry to me, compared to a big guy gently holding a little butterfly. And thankfully, in-game visuals and mannerisms can help things a long way (beyond splash art, of course). If Alistar gingerly kicked at enemies with his little feet and cowered (bullered?) when they were nearby, that would help sell him as a gentle giant (along with voice lines, splash art, having him not be dangerous unless really provoked like Edmund, etc.) but right now, he's just an angry bull no matter where you look. Kind of a bunk argument until he gets a full splash/model/VO/animation rework, then I'd gladly accept his current "Gentle Giant" kit. >My criticism of Zyra is that she retains her team fight aspects with her same (but empowered) line root and what seems like an insane damaging ult. By being feast or famine, I do not mean in a specific engagement, I mean the whole game. If Zyra gets behind in her plants, she will be useless. Her Ultimate will have no value with no plants and her damage will be lackluster (otherwise she will just be broken >> 125%). Yi may just get instagibbed for a while, but unless you just get completely steamrolled (which happens) Yi will be useful once he hits his item power spikes. Huh, I'm not sure if you're talking about current Zyra, or if you're talking about the Zyra redesign but just didn't actually read it. I'll assume the latter (sorry!) for right now. In regards to her line root, I haven't changed it at all (unless they've recently nerfed it, in which case I would do the same, since emphasis should ultimately be on her plants). The ult itself doesn't do any damage itself, and as far as the plant attackspeed boost, it should be the same as her current ult - so essentially, it's an ult that still buffs her plants, but moves them somewhere else on the map instead of knocking them up (so it's actually less useful in direct combat, especially if reactionary). And thankfully, Zyra should never dip below 75% effectiveness, because one thing I do to avoid feast-or-famine is introduce "fallback patterns," where the champion gets to sacrifice something in exchange for something else. One of the ways I do this is risk-reward; in Zyra's case, growing her plants in lane where they can attack her opponents (and thus be attacked) is her more aggressive but less safe pattern, as her opponents have the opportunity to nip them in the bud before they grow. The safer option is to reliably grow plants behind her tower, but in doing so she gives up her lane presence for a period. Even if you're "behind" as Zyra, all that means is you'll have to avoid being too aggressive for a bit while you catch up, so she's far from out of the game at that point. >Overloaded can mean that the kit excels at too much (Kalista, Lee) or there is just too much in the kit. Nocturne has fears, silences, stealth, insane sticking power, amazing dueling, and even decent team fighting power (aoe fear). If you are isolated, you will die.; you will be silenced, instantly feared, unable to run away, and dead. Nocturne is already good at punishing out of position Champions, but this is taken to an unhealthy degree. Most of the kits you have designed have these empowered abilities and none that I could see were any less oppressive. Again, power budget comes into play. An example of this is that a kit with 4 skillshots is allowed to have more power (whether through raw numbers or additional mechanics) than a kit with 4 targeted abilities. Compare any single-target damage spell with any skillshot damage, and you'll find that they either have lower cooldown/cost, higher effectiveness, more ranged, or more mechanics. With current Nocturne, he is gated by nothing but range (which his kit allows him to address). He can ult you, pop his abilities, and take you down while you can't do much about it. With the redesign, however, while he doesn't do tremendously more damage, his abilities gain increased effects (moving over terrain, longer CC, etc.), and they're allowed to do this because you, as his opponent, can stop him from accessing that power. Literally, you could stand next to a minion or tower or ally and bring him from 125% to 75% and have a better time with him. It's the same principle as skill shots: if the opponent can do something about it (especially if they don't need a special item or toolset; everyone can move left and right), it's allowed to be really impactful when it *does* happen. That's why Aurelion Sol can create a skill shot as big as your base and why Jhin's ult gets 4 bullets while Caitlyn's gets 1! >In your description of Territorial and Control, many Territorial Champions will become a subset of Control Champions. Zyra may have "global" presence, but once she moves all those plants to one area, she will become an insane Territorial one. In this case, she wouldn't be as powerful as a Territorial champion who *couldn't* move their zone around the map. All she's doing is adapting to a more Territorial playstyle, which is cool and alright! You should be able to make sacrifices to adapt, whether that's through masteries or items or your personal gameplay choices. It's part of what prevents that feast-or-famine. >Rek'Sai would be Control, but also Aggressive. But since she spends so much of her power on that global mobility, she wouldn't be as powerful when adapting to an Aggressive playstyle as, say, Shyvana would; since her power budget is invested in chasing power and damage output instead of global mobility, she'd be able to make stronger Aggressive plays than Rek'Sai would (while Rek'Sai would have much greater objective control). >So unless you make all Champions adhere to only one aspect, you will never have a true power triangle. Heimerdinger is probably the best fitting Territorial Champion, but he falls to heavy dive Champions like Olaf, Irelia, and Yasuo. I wouldn't say that any champion at all actually adheres entirely and solely to one aspect of the triangle, since everyone has the power to move around the map or push towers or contribute to initiations. However, by and large, I try to keep things in a coherent direction - so while Heimerdinger can place new turrets where he needs to be or spread them across the map, he's not as flexible on a global scale as Zyra. Just as Soraka can occasionally heal someone from really far away, most of her gameplay involves staying fairly stationary. This allows me to have levers of balance, so if the Soraka redesign were to get out of control, I could immediately just hit her ult range or have its execution time bound to a projectile (which is what they did with Bard). >Actually, Territorial is probably has ability to include the largest amount of Champions if you include someone like Darius. Does that make Kennen Territorial? Gangplank? Both of those Champions also easily fit into other categories. Your reworked Soraka also fits into both Territorial and Control with her ability to buff and heal nearby allies as well as one at a global range. Kennen and Gangplank (in his redesign, at least; he's kind of a mess as he is right now), they'd absolutely be Aggressive - they're all about taking their power and throwing it onto the enemy team. Darius is Territorial since he can't really initiate unless his opponents are wearing lead shoes, but you REALLY don't want to get near him (just like you wouldn't want to initiate as Yasuo into the middle of Heimer's turret nest). >Where is your data for these claims that more people are bored of the 5v5 teamfights? Posts on the forums as of late are really complaining about split-pushing and Zz'rot portal causing stagnation. More people posting on the forums is hardly concrete data since content players are not prone to post about how much fun they are having. Furthermore, more players increase the amount of forum posts so all your data could suggest is that there are more people playing the game. Riot has stated before that the players who post on these forums are a small vocal minority of the playerbase. Best I can do is just keep my ear to the ground and listen, that's all I really have done and (aside from data that only they can access) that's what Riot has done too. It makes sense to me that people will become bored whenever any one strategy reigns supreme, and from the games I've played and the professional games I've watched, the 5v5 teamfight thing seems to be a recurring element. >I would rather see Champions have a fall back pattern of play when they are shut down as opposed to being useless and unless you pose a better way, there will be none. Will riot keep working on kits to accomplish this? Probably. Finally, I would pose that Fiora's ultimate is fitting. It is called "Grand Challenge" being that this is a large spectacle as it is a duel. When Fiora wins there is a mass celebration that is held by not only Fiora, but her team. Should there be some penalty if you fail the challenge? Maybe, but that is a better placed argument than what you posed. The thing is, the moment you include "team," you've lost "duelist"; this is the excuse I see time and time again in regards to that ultimate, but it's honestly the equivalent of being in the middle of a fencing match and having all your friends and family rush the stage the moment you get your first point. Fencing is an intense one-on-one bout, and once the final point is struck, it's over. Not to mention the healing! As a fencer, it makes no sense that her primary contribution to a team is a massive AoE heal (rather than, say, disarming an opponent or isolating them in a duel in the midst of a crowded teamfight), and as a duelist, "winning a fight" shouldn't necessitate a heal because it was a duel and you have no more opponents to threaten you.
JRobin31 (NA)
: So I guess "Thematic Dissonance" is something we can differ on. I don't really have a problem with seeming inconsistencies such as bulls that heal or falconers that do back flips. In fact, I think it's sort of cool to have champions do things that aren't immediately obvious from looking at their pictures or reading a few words about them. I also don't have too much issue with "Niche From Single Abilities", "Mechanical Dissonance", "Mechanical Overload", or "Generalist Gameplay". I think "Homogeneous Kits" are an issue because bans should be meaningful from the perspective of what the opposing team can now bring to the game. I think "Strategic Staleness" could be an issue but maybe not in the same sense that you think it is. What I get from what you've said is that all games are decided by team fights and you would like to see other ways for the outcome of the game to be decided. But I'm not sure why encouraging the game to be decided in some way other than a team fight would be a good thing even if it is less "stale". I mean why should teams that are map aware not group on whatever objective is most key (and there are multiple objectives in the game)? Do there need to be more objectives to fight over? Or do you mean there need to be more back doors, split pushes, neutral objectives? Or alternate win conditions besides the destruction of the enemy Nexus? You talked about Aggressive, Control, and Territorial, but I'm unclear on how that translates into something besides a team fight. Or do you just mean that there needs to be more for champions to do besides lane in the early game?
>So I guess "Thematic Dissonance" is something we can differ on. I don't really have a problem with seeming inconsistencies such as bulls that heal or falconers that do back flips. In fact, I think it's sort of cool to have champions do things that aren't immediately obvious from looking at their pictures or reading a few words about them. That's alright! A lot of design is about disagreements, and the best solutions are often in between. I'm pretty by-the-books when it comes to design (so I wouldn't have thought of things like permanently binding two champions for an entire game or attacks that are restricted around an ammo system), and while this hasn't done me wrong so far, I think opening up a bit and letting some idiosyncrasies slide might lead to some neat stuff for me. For now, though, I think I'll stick with what I know. : ) >I think "Strategic Staleness" could be an issue but maybe not in the same sense that you think it is. What I get from what you've said is that all games are decided by team fights and you would like to see other ways for the outcome of the game to be decided. But I'm not sure why encouraging the game to be decided in some way other than a team fight would be a good thing even if it is less "stale". I mean why should teams that are map aware not group on whatever objective is most key (and there are multiple objectives in the game)? Do there need to be more objectives to fight over? Or do you mean there need to be more back doors, split pushes, neutral objectives? Or alternate win conditions besides the destruction of the enemy Nexus? You talked about Aggressive, Control, and Territorial, but I'm unclear on how that translates into something besides a team fight. Or do you just mean that there needs to be more for champions to do besides lane in the early game? I do think team play should always be a definitive factor in a team's victory, but I'd like to see that manifest in more than one way. Again, such as perfectly dominating a small area of the map and pushing that area towards the enemy base (Territorial), using amazing coordination to run circles around the enemy team and forcing them to make constant lose/lose decisions (control), and so on. It's like, in professional Street Fighter, not every match is decided by a 100-0 rushdown, because not every character is a rushdown character! Sometimes people win by constantly pressuring the opponent and limiting their options, wearing their opponent down with tactically masterful one-sided trades, out-predicting your opponent and turning their aggression back on them as a catch character...there are a lot of ways to win, and they're all pretty cool! I want to see that in League, whether that manifests as unstoppable brick wall sieges, objective dominance, dogpiles, guerilla warfare, vision control, or whatever else is possible.
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ItemsGuy

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