Rioter Comments
: Unexpectedly in-depth, nice job. Though I think vision score and ward placement should be the same thing, and instead have map awareness.
> [{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BBHy0VA1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-09T15:55:23.871+0000) > > Unexpectedly in-depth, nice job. > Though I think vision score and ward placement should be the same thing, and instead have map awareness. I agree with that, I would also add in "Champion knowledge - knowing what every champion does and combos/cooldowns of abilities". What I find interesting is that the lower priority items according to me are also the things that will help the advanced players climb. The reason for this is you have some basic concepts, like items, builds, farming, and warding, which you absolutely need in order to climb out of low Elo, but you mix in more advanced things like kiting (moderate, most players start doing this in silver/gold), to wave manipulation and roaming (advanced, even challenger players have differing abilities when it comes to manipulating waves). These more advanced skills are what players need to learn to climb out of gold/plat/diamond, but you can make it through low Elo without them. You can be a great wave manipulator, but if you are rushing Warmogs on TF while averaging 4 cs/min you aren't going to climb very far.
: [Survey] Toxic behavior in LoL survey
I commend you for getting a decent start, but I do have some feedback for you: It seems that you are looking for information on toxicity overall, but that's about the extent of what you are studying. You want to try to narrow the survey to be a bit more specific. For instance, focus on how people react to toxicity (you had a couple of questions on it, but nothing in depth). Ask questions like "Do you feel like your game outcomes are better, worse, or the same when someone is being toxic?" "Do you feel like your game outcomes are better, worse, or the same if you engage the toxic player rather than ignoring/muting them?" "Have you ever felt unfairly punished since you feel that responding to a toxic player is not the same as unprovoked toxicity?" Also, consider giving people more opportunity to explain their answers with additional follow up questions that tie into the larger theme. You did this a little, but one or 2 follow up questions on a subject paints a very vague picture. Narrowing your focus will help you get better results than "95% of the community has experienced toxicity, but only 10% admit to being toxic more than 'rarely'." While a useful conclusion, it would be better to see if you can identify the underlying cause of this variance. Best of luck with the study! Also, would you be willing to make your conclusions/data available to people who left an email? I work as a data analyst and I have engaged Riot multiple times and asked them for info they have on the subject but they don't like to share. I would be curious to see what your data shows (with redacted emails, obviously).
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Midg3t,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T17:11:16.279+0000) > > You dont even need to watch him. Literally watch the 1st clip and then tell me you would be fine with that. > > Where was he racist? > Wow, he called turkish region dogshit? Holy molly this guy is the next Adolf H. xD > And if you think thats racist then im sry but you never saw real racism. Google a lil bit about it. > > And I wouldnt defend his actions if he just went into a game and started saying shit like "I wish every kebab maker got killed haHAA" for no reason, but he didnt. Instead, turkish server treated him like shit and he got fed up. Wow, let's crucify the fucking guy for not being a saint. > And would he be like that if they didnt int his ass? not at all. I'm not watching him either but I never heard that he was toxic, or at least not enough for people to talk about it. > > But yea, let's pretend that he was toxic because he wants it, not because he simply got fed up. The guy is simply a toxic human trash, yup, thats the case. "Real" racism? Pretty fucking evident you dont understand racism at all. I hate to break it to you, but a blanket statement of "all of x people are y" is racist. Racism isnt just taking slaves or beating people because they arent a part of your in group. And again, them inting him makes ZERO difference. They didnt put his hands to the keyboard with a gun to his head and make him type. You dont need to be a saint to literally do nothing, let alone go full racist.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=00050000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T17:23:59.454+0000) > > "Real" racism? Pretty fucking evident you dont understand racism at all. I hate to break it to you, but a blanket statement of "all of x people are y" is racist. Racism isnt just taking slaves or beating people because they arent a part of your in group. > > And again, them inting him makes ZERO difference. They didnt put his hands to the keyboard with a gun to his head and make him type. You dont need to be a saint to literally do nothing, let alone go full racist. He was referring to the Turkish server, not Turkish people. He said "Turkish region" multiple times, and the CLOSEST he came to an ad hominem comment on Turkish people was when he said "How stupid are Turkish players?" Again, the region is called Turkey so you should assume he was referring to the region being bad rather than Turkish people being bad. You are REALLY reaching to pretend this is a racist comment. Was it rude? Absolutely. Was it detrimental to his team? Also a resounding yes. Was it racist? I mean, Blade is Iranian (Iran shares a border with Turkey, and the countries have been on good terms for a long time). I'm gonna say that he wasn't trying to be racist with that comment, given the fact that Iran and Turkey are incredibly similar. If Canada got their own server and I said "Canadian players suck", would you accuse me of racism? The stronger argument is that ret-rd is a ableist slur and he was punished for that. While many people use that slur colloquially (and not as a slur against mentally handicapped people), that doesn't make using it acceptable by the community standards set by Riot. But I will call your attention back to the main point. These players that were observed on stream to be intentionally feeding did not face punishment. When he got mad and expressed that frustration in a non-PC manner, he was punished. The argument I posed in this thread is that you cannot justify Blade's punishment while ignoring the circumstances surrounding it, namely the players who pushed him to that level of frustration. In fact, in the video you will hear Blade say the exact same thing: "I got banned but they didn't, how is that fair?"
: You know, riot´s inaptitude to handle these cases annoys me way less than the people sitting on these ridiculously high horses damning everyone once someone shows the smallest sign of negative behaviour, as if they themselves weren´t imperfect. "two bads don´t make a good" "what´s bad is bad no matter what" "There is no excuse for..." "think of the children" All nice anecdotes, but not very applicable in real-life scenarios where human interaction is highly affective and reactionary. It´s bad enough that riot forces itself to set these arbitrary boundaries that are all about semantics and nothing else, but we as a community of people who should be able to relate to such situations should have each other's back and should not measure each other to what a hypothetical perfect person would do, just to see who fails first at being perfect. I don´t watch tf blade and have no idea how he usually acts, but from what I have seen in this video, the only thing I could accuse him of is not being a saint.
> [{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2019-09-04T17:45:09.192+0000) > > You know, riot´s inaptitude to handle these cases annoys me way less than the people sitting on these ridiculously high horses damning everyone once someone shows the smallest sign of negative behaviour, as if they themselves weren´t imperfect. > > "two bads don´t make a good" > "what´s bad is bad no matter what" > "There is no excuse for..." > "think of the children" > > All nice anecdotes, but not very applicable in real-life scenarios where human interaction is highly affective and reactionary. It´s bad enough that riot forces itself to set these arbitrary boundaries that are all about semantics and nothing else, but we as a community of people who should be able to relate to such situations should have each other's back and should not measure each other to what a hypothetical perfect person would do, just to see who fails first at being perfect. > > I don´t watch tf blade and have no idea how he usually acts, but from what I have seen in this video, the only thing I could accuse him of is not being a saint. This is an excellent point, and when I got my chat restriction for getting upset that my tilting teammates weren't muting each other, Riot support actually said the following to me: "This kind of behavior is super not cool and something we are trying to stop. I can understand that you were dealing with negative Summoners, but how you respond to negativity is important. I do understand that you were trying to tell the Cait to mute the teemo, but it isn't your responsibility to police other Summoners. If they want to tilt or not use the chat feature, that is up to them. But arguing back and forth isn't ok either. So in the future, I would recommend muting and reporting negative Summoners. But don't take it upon yourself to police others. If you are interested, you can also read more about the penalty system here. Because of this, I don't believe that the penalty was placed in error and won't be able to remove or reduce it." I was actually punished because I got frustrated that we were throwing a game we had a lead in, so I spoke up to tell 2 people to stop arguing and mute each other, and I used the word "fuck" once during that time. Heaven forbid a player actually get frustrated about 2 players trying to throw a ranked game! And after all of this, Riot actually wants to believe they are making the community a better place. All I did in response is disable my chat. So now if someone tries to tell me something I can't see it. Earlier in the exact same email, this Rioter said "At its core, the chat feature is supposed to be used for efficient communication or constructive criticism that is conducive to good team play." Well, now I don't have a chat because Riot has made it clear they care more about naughty words instead of proper use of the ranked system. I cannot imagine the level of narcissism it takes to think it's fair to punish someone for getting upset over a player intentionally throwing the game, and at the same time say it's "too difficult" to punish players for intentionally throwing a game.
: Ummmm Dont flame, dont say anything in chat ever. You wont get banned for chat things. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
> [{quoted}](name=ImsoBadMain,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-09-04T13:37:31.756+0000) > > Ummmm Dont flame, dont say anything in chat ever. > > You wont get banned for chat things. > > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} Your comment illustrates the point of this thread: players won't say anything and avoid punishments even though they are running it down/playing while in full tilt/inting/etc. It's harder for Riot to punish in game behavior since you can't automate it. Our issue isn't about Blade getting a punishment, the issue is his anger which led to his punishment stems from multiple games with the same players were target inting him to ruin his stream, and most if not all of them are facing no punishment. The point is, players aren't rewarded for staying cool. For example, I am almost always positive if I type, whether winning or losing, but one game a troll just pissed me off because he was tilting 2 other players on the team and we were throwing the game. I kept asking them to mute this toxic player, but they kept arguing with him. I finally got mad when they threw a play because they were too busy typing and said "Holy fuck, can you just mute him yet? Act like an adult". The troll took aim at me to flame me, and the last thing I said was "Thanks for the advice, Mr. Troll. Excuse me while I ignore you" and then muted him. He reported me, and since I swore and told my team to act like adults I was given a chat restriction. This is why people are mad. Trolls can avoid saying anything that Riot considers a no-no, they can intentionally feed (the troll in my game was a Teemo support who finished 0/12/5), and they can single-handedly ruin a game, and Riot doesn't punish them (or if they do, they don't tell us). We have no sense of closure, and we know the issue isn't being addressed because if you play 10 games a week you will see at least a few players behave like this. Obviously they don't worry about being punished, which means Riot isn't doing a good job with preventing this type of behavior. The solution isn't "Don't say anything in chat", the solution is "Riot, do better". That's what we are discussing here, we aren't talking about how to not get banned/chat restricted.
: Honestly no one cares. He can just make another account and get rank 1 in 14 days. Riot isn't gonna change, talking about it on the boards is just wasting time for everyone.
> [{quoted}](name=WarnercBbT,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-03T18:38:56.367+0000) > > Honestly no one cares. > He can just make another account and get rank 1 in 14 days. > > Riot isn't gonna change, talking about it on the boards is just wasting time for everyone. That's not true at all. Everything begins as a discussion, then over time it becomes an idea. If the community gets behind something, Riot will bend. Just look at TFT.
Hvsao (NA)
: Sure, their is a discrepancy from ranked and normals, but that doesn't justify playing ranked simply for the experience. Some of the core concepts of the game for SOLO QUEUE: CSing Rotating Warding Objective Control Champion Knowledge/Technical Prowess Itemization Knowledge Which of these can you not learn in normal? Your example from earlier about playing against a really good player ranked and later you describe how you played a challenger in a normal game. So technically speaking you could experience what higher ranked players would do in normal games. On top of that all the concepts I mentioned above are practicable with normal draft matches. If anything I would say until you are high gold or plat the game is all about looking after yourself. Team play doesn't really become a consistent factor.
> [{quoted}](name=Hvsao,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=000300000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T17:09:54.073+0000) > > Sure, their is a discrepancy from ranked and normals, but that doesn't justify playing ranked simply for the experience. > > Come of the core concepts of the game for SOLO QUEUE: > > CSing > Rotating > Warding > Objective Control > Champion Knowledge/Technical Prowess > Itemization Knowledge > > > Which of these can you not learn in normal? > > Your example from earlier about playing against a really good player ranked and later you describe how you played a challenger in a normal game. So technically speaking you could experience what higher ranked players would do in normal games. > > On top of that all the concepts I mentioned above are practicable with normal draft matches. > > If anything I would say until you are high gold or plat the game is all about looking after yourself. Team play doesn't really become a consistent factor. I agree with everything you are saying, and it all rolls up to a larger point: You don't need to play ranked to enjoy League. We play ranked because we want to play it seriously. If a single person doesn't take it seriously, it usually swings the game. This ties back to the unique challenge I was speaking of regarding Riot. When a game has a strong competitive scene, the game owner should prioritize perfecting that competitive scene. Arguing about balance/meta/etc is all part of the game, and it keeps it dynamic and allows for players to adapt to changes to demonstrate their skill. I can't have someone blind picking Mantheon because his rework looks cool and facing a 1-trick Jax up top. This forces the entire team to play differently just to stay EVEN. Jungle/mid have to decide whether it's better to babysit top to stop the bleeding, or to just let Jax rampage the lane in the hopes that the 4 remaining players can overcome the person not trying to win. Losing lane because of a bad game is one thing, it happens to all of us, and it rewards the player who won lane while testing the teammates of the laner who lost to overcome that deficit. Losing a lane because you don't know what you're doing puts your team at a disadvantage before the game has even started. This is not conducive to ranked and it is the cause of a ton of frustration. Players who want to play casually should only be playing casual games. Name a single pro player who has first-timed a champ in a pro game. They wouldn't do it because that would be absurd, and ranked is where we go to emulate pro players.
Hvsao (NA)
: Yup I 100% advocate for a competitive ban. Bad players should be locked out of ranked games, so that they can become better before returning. Ranked is a game mode meant for a competitive evaluation of skill. It is not a place to "Try" new champions, or "throw a temper tantrum". IF a player consistently makes poor decisions and hinder the game for others then I believe they are not innocent, and should learn. I will ask you. WHY should player who are bad be allowed to play ranked? What benefit does that provide them or others? WHY cant they play normal draft? WHAT is wrong with preventing players from playing ranked for a short period of time, so that they can cool off and come back with a fresh perspective?
> [{quoted}](name=Hvsao,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0003000000000002,timestamp=2019-09-03T15:53:18.452+0000) > > Yup I 100% advocate for a competitive ban. Bad players should be locked out of ranked games, so that they can become better before returning. Ranked is a game mode meant for a competitive evaluation of skill. It is not a place to "Try" new champions, or "throw a temper tantrum". IF a player consistently makes poor decisions and hinder the game for others then I believe they are not innocent, and should learn. > > > I will ask you. WHY should player who are bad be allowed to play ranked? What benefit does that provide them or others? > > WHY cant they play normal draft? > > WHAT is wrong with preventing players from playing ranked for a short period of time, so that they can cool off and come back with a fresh perspective? I've been thinking about this one for a while now, and I don't disagree. Ranked is designed to match you with players of a similar skill set. The issue there is if that skill set is VERY low, odds are the player will experience 2 things. First, they won't climb. Second, their bad habits will become muscle memory and therefore harder to change. Ranked is designed specifically to create a climb and a desire to achieve more. Far too often, players take ranked casually. It's like how scrimmages are played at different levels of intensity than games for any sport. If a player wants to mess around with new champs, they should be in normals. If a player wants learn mechanics, they should be in normals. When a player has achieved a level of understanding of champions, mechanics, macro, etc, THEN they should play ranked. It's not a punishment to tell someone who wants to play casually that they shouldn't be in ranked. When I started playing LoL back in season 2, I wasn't new to MOBA games. So after leveling up and playing a lot of normal games, I went to ranked. I hit silver 2 at my peak for that season, and was CONVINCED my teams were just bad and I was unlucky. Then as fate would have it, Cao Mei was in the US for Worlds and was climbing on his NA account. I faced him mid. I knew who he was, so I played safe. I was super impressed to only be 0/2 at 15 minutes. But then I looked at the map and realized he was 8/0/3 with 150 cs. It clicked that maybe I could do more to win, since the rest of his team was doing literally nothing unless he showed up and made a play. I climbed to plat the next season, and I hit diamond promos last season (though I failed, I was still pretty happy). The point of this isn't to brag (since I'm obviously still somewhat stuck, even though it's a respectable rank), it's to simply realize that we keep making the same bad plays and decisions when we get stuck in a ranked rut. I have been improving each season, and each season I find getting into mid plat is easier than the season before. It took me facing a far superior player to realize I was holding myself back from climbing. Normal mmr is all over the place, so much so that I have faced a challenger on one of my low level accounts. Maybe letting these casual players face stronger players in a casual setting will help improve the ranked experience overall. It's better than how frequently you see bronze/silver players buying plat accounts and then feeding because they were CONVINCED they were just unlucky to be low Elo after 1000 ranked games each season (I'm definitely not referring to a 0/12/1 plat 2 nasus from a game of mine about a month ago who had 54 cs at 15 minutes and threw the game away by feeding a gold 1 Darius main).
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hvsao,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-03T15:24:58.521+0000) > > I disagree. > Flaming isn't the only problem. > Honestly players who intentionally play poorly, or act rashly to incite a toxic reaction from their teammates are the actual issue. Riot does not do a good job of distinguishing between Intentionally Feeding and having a bad game. IF players were punished for repeatedly throwing games, we'd have a better game. > > Honestly if your KDA is horribly low they should put you on competitive cooldown. Honestly this would reduce tilting and become a deterrent to trolls. Absolutely not true. What is "competitive cooldown", preventing someone from playing? Riot will not, period, full stop, implement any sort of "ranked ban", thus the only form of "competitive cooldown" would be a temporary suspension. You are advocating players be punished for being bad and having a bad game. Innocent players should not be punished. If someone cannot control their tilt, they will fall in rank and MMR and be matched with similar skill player.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T15:36:44.608+0000) > > Absolutely not true. What is "competitive cooldown", preventing someone from playing? Riot will not, period, full stop, implement any sort of "ranked ban", thus the only form of "competitive cooldown" would be a temporary suspension. You are advocating players be punished for being bad and having a bad game. > > Innocent players should not be punished. If someone cannot control their tilt, they will fall in rank and MMR and be matched with similar skill player. This thread has been discussing a cooldown for a pattern of bad games, not just a single bad game. EVERYONE has bad games. I had a 0/7/1 game not too long ago. I put myself on a break for 10 minutes just to move past it. But if I immediately played another game and was a jerk to my next team and finished 0/6/2, it might be worth considering a 5 minute cooldown. What's the difference between making a player take a 5 minute break for back to back (to back) bad games vs punishing a player for dodging a game where one of his teammates is clearly trolling/toxic? In fact, dodging a bad game is actually a larger punishment than we are suggesting since you lose LP if you dodge. I don't think we need to take LP away when implementing a ranked cooldown. As of right now, Riot forces good players to take a penalty for a bad player coming in full tilt. I main jg, and it happens all the time where someone comes in saying things like "Hey jg, I hope you're not a complete ret-rd like my last jungle. I will just afk if you don't gank." I usually grab their summoner name before dodging so I can look them up, and most of the time they have a HORRIBLE match history. Why should I take a 5 minute cooldown and a loss of 3 LP? Wouldn't it be better if we could devise a system to catch them? And with a minor punishment like a 5 minute time out, do we care if a small % of the time it grabs someone who maybe doesn't need the time out? Maybe we get a warning after 2 bad games that if we have another bad game we will get a short time out unless we choose to take one now. These are the types of things you can say that would be productive. You are just telling everyone they are wrong but proposing nothing in return. Literally everyone else on this thread, even people who disagree with my OP, are offering insightful commentary and good points/suggestions. Try to be like that, it's entirely possible to have a civil discussion.
rujitra (NA)
: No, he's a perfect example of the **system working**. He is a toxic player. He flames people to avoid blaming himself for his failure because he cares more about his stream income than actually being a good player. He would have no problem losing every game and blaming others every game because that would keep his viewership up. Stop attempting to justify flaming by saying "it's not the real problem". **Flaming people is a problem. People not doing anything wrong is not a problem.** #Players will never be punished just because someone else is frustrated with them or because they play poorly. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-03T15:08:38.762+0000) > > No, he's a perfect example of the **system working**. > > He is a toxic player. He flames people to avoid blaming himself for his failure because he cares more about his stream income than actually being a good player. He would have no problem losing every game and blaming others every game because that would keep his viewership up. > > Stop attempting to justify flaming by saying "it's not the real problem". **Flaming people is a problem. People not doing anything wrong is not a problem.** > > #Players will never be punished just because someone else is frustrated with them or because they play poorly. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. Bro, I didn't say flaming isn't a real problem. In fact, I said "There is nothing wrong with trying to prevent toxic communication in an online game. Toxicity has been around since the Internet was made publicly available. Saying "we don't want outright flaming/derogatory remarks" is an admirable goal, as well as a lofty one." Take a chill pill. My comment about "The real problem" was referring to the big problem here: Riot does not know how to manage their community. Should they go after toxic players? 100% YES, FULL STOP, NO ARGUMENT FROM ME. My point is that they for some reason PRIORITIZE players who say mean things rather than people who intentionally ruin games. Wintraders are still playing, people still buy higher ranked accounts and then feed because it turns out they aren't as good as they thought, and some players will int if things go even the slightest bit wrong. Is Blade toxic? He certainly can be. Is what he said punishable? If you read my original post, I in fact said it arguably is. Come on man, no need to go full tilt in the response.
Hotarµ (NA)
: > In the 2 games cited as violations, he used the slur "r%%%%%", "R%%%%%" is not classified as a zero-tolerance word (unless Riot has recently changed the system to include it, which I doubt) and will not warrant an immediate 14-day suspension by itself. Note how "ret-rd" is not censored but if you look at chat logs when people use homophobic or racial slurs like "f-ggot", those _are_ censored. It's only censored in your post because of the Boards filter, not due to Riot's system. It's more likely due to him saying "Why are all Turkish players so bad?" It's a _bit_ of a stretch but I could see this being classified as hate speech. People have been given 14-day bans before for saying things along those lines, like "Why are all chinese players so toxic" or "Holy shit, all ____ are trash." >1) If someone submits clips of a player intentionally feeding/throwing, Riot needs to punish that person. An 0/6/0 Jax refusing to group and instead focusing on splitting isn't necessarily throwing. An 0/6/0 Syndra refusing to group is clearly someone who isn't trying to win. Streamers will often have video proof of a player throwing a game, and Riot will STILL do nothing. This is an argument I see come up very often and nobody ever looks at it realistically. League of Legends is a popular game. A **really** fucking popular game, like massive. Riot and it's player behavior team don't have the luxury of sitting through 10-40+ minute clips because there would be a huge backlog of unpunished players with people getting punished months or maybe even a year after they committed an offense. **An automated system is the only way to handle a game of League's scale. ** Manual reviews and manual input should still be a thing but asking for a manual review on _every_ report is just ridiculous and not feasible in any way. >2) This is the big one, Riot needs to be more forthcoming with outcomes of reports and what punishments are. (cont.) I wouldn't mind having the IFS message appear more often and I think it might elevate some people's spirits, but ultimately that's Riot's decision to make. Their reasoning is that you shouldn't dwell on reports because that just creates unnecessary stress and frustration. If you report someone and then focus on the next game, you're more likely to shed that negative experience and create a new positive one. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with their thought process, this is a subjective issue tbh. >We can all see that Riot does very little to address people who are ruining ranked play, so this community has resorted to aggression that is often aimed at the wrong people. Feedback is VITALLY important, and without it we move toward chaos. This is where I disagree, and I'll refer you back to an earlier statement you made. **"If someone submits clips of a player intentionally feeding/throwing, Riot needs to punish that person. An 0/6/0 Jax refusing to group and instead focusing on splitting isn't necessarily throwing."** The problem here is that 90% of the League community is going to call that player a troll, griefer, or intentional feeder. Nobody understands what those terms actually mean and nobody is accepting the harsh reality that some people just suck, that people have bad games, _that people are people and make mistakes._ You're correct in saying that the Jax isn't necessarily throwing because he **should** be splitting and trying to scale, but everyone else is going to see that as griefing and ask for reports because they want someone to blame. Then, they're going to flame the Jax and demand that he be punished. _Then,_ they're going to stalk his match history (and ignore the good games he's had) and wait for him to stop playing for 14+ days. Basically what I'm saying is: People don't understand the true definition of the words "int", "grief", and "troll." Obviously yes, if someone is guilty of those things they should be punished (and more often than not they are) but they dwell so much on people they _incorrectly_ accuse of trolling that it clouds their judgment and they see the system as a failure for that reason.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-03T14:48:09.277+0000) > > "R%%%%%" is not classified as a zero-tolerance word (unless Riot has recently changed the system to include it, which I doubt) and will not warrant an immediate 14-day suspension by itself. Note how "ret-rd" is not censored but if you look at chat logs when people use homophobic or racial slurs like "f-ggot", those _are_ censored. It's only censored in your post because of the Boards filter, not due to Riot's system. > > It's more likely due to him saying "Why are all Turkish players so bad?" It's a _bit_ of a stretch but I could see this being classified as hate speech. People have been given 14-day bans before for saying things along those lines, like "Why are all chinese players so toxic" or "Holy shit, all ____ are trash." > > This is an argument I see come up very often and nobody ever looks at it realistically. > > League of Legends is a popular game. A **really** fucking popular game, like massive. > > Riot and it's player behavior team don't have the luxury of sitting through 10-40+ minute clips because there would be a huge backlog of unpunished players with people getting punished months or maybe even a year after they committed an offense. **An automated system is the only way to handle a game of League's scale. ** Manual reviews and manual input should still be a thing but asking for a manual review on _every_ report is just ridiculous and not feasible in any way. > > I wouldn't mind having the IFS message appear more often and I think it might elevate some people's spirits, but ultimately that's Riot's decision to make. Their reasoning is that you shouldn't dwell on reports because that just creates unnecessary stress and frustration. If you report someone and then focus on the next game, you're more likely to shed that negative experience and create a new positive one. > > Obviously not everyone is going to agree with their thought process, this is a subjective issue tbh. > > This is where I disagree, and I'll refer you back to an earlier statement you made. > > **"If someone submits clips of a player intentionally feeding/throwing, Riot needs to punish that person. An 0/6/0 Jax refusing to group and instead focusing on splitting isn't necessarily throwing."** > > The problem here is that 90% of the League community is going to call that player a troll, griefer, or intentional feeder. Nobody understands what those terms actually mean and nobody is accepting the harsh reality that some people just suck, that people have bad games, _that people are people and make mistakes._ > > You're correct in saying that the Jax isn't necessarily throwing because he **should** be splitting and trying to scale, but everyone else is going to see that as griefing and ask for reports because they want someone to blame. Then, they're going to flame the Jax and demand that he be punished. _Then,_ they're going to stalk his match history (and ignore the good games he's had) and wait for him to stop playing for 14+ days. > > Basically what I'm saying is: People don't understand the true definition of the words "int", "grief", and "troll." Obviously yes, if someone is guilty of those things they should be punished (and more often than not they are) but people dwell so much on people they _incorrect_ accuse of trolling that it clouds their judgment and they see the system as a failure for that reason. First, thanks for the thorough response, I think you have some good points (which I will address briefly). Not much to say on the slur or the comment about the Turkish region, I highly doubt it's hate speech since the first commenter pointed out he was referring to the region and not the country. I agree with the video aspect if Riot does it alone. Honestly, I would love to see them consider the Tribunal for this stuff. It would be cool if they set a max clip size (say 5 minutes) in order to allow players who choose to do the editing to show multiple instances of a player running it down. That's all speculative though, and more of a pipe dream than a realistic solution. Regarding the IFS message, my point is that it would be nice to know our time matters to Riot. I actually disagree about dwelling, I think having a more proactive feedback system would alleviate players dwelling since they will know if it's legit they will hear about it. The only issue with this thought is actually based on your next point. People do tend to not understand game concepts, terms, etc. I was playing a game yesterday where I had rift herald. My team was grouped as 4 mid, and the enemy team was also grouped as 4. The enemy jungle was heading toward mid from top side (ran over a ward), so I pinged my team to back off and I dropped herald bot. Three of them didn't back off, and the mid laner decided to leave to go farm raptors. The three that stayed were engaged on by the 4 enemies, and they lost the fight. The mid laner flamed me for not being there, despite him farming raptors and ignoring the fight that was right next to him. So you are right, some people would not understand the system. The idea is that Riot would have to implement something that did trend analysis rather than trying to ban based off of a single data point. If that Jax is 0/6/0 but has a decent match history, it's just a bad game. If 5 of his last 7 games have similar scores, he's obviously either trolling or way too tilted to play competitively. I don't think a ban is appropriate there, but maybe some sort of "ranked timeouts" would be nice. A player immediately playing a new game while extremely tilted is TECHNICALLY throwing the game. They are not focused on the current game, and their performance usually indicates that. When I get a really tilting team, I take a break for 5-10 minutes. I don't want my bad experience to ruin my next game. Implementing a "ranked timeout" would help with this. While it sounds bad, Riot already chat restricts people who argue or asks for reports, so suggesting a 5 minute break for a player who has had 3 bad games in a row isn't unreasonable. They already give this punishment out to people who dodge a game to avoid a bad team/toxic player, so there's really not much of a defense to be had given Riot's current stance on the issue.
Jakra (EUW)
: I've looked at the reddit surrounding the issue, and I've seen Turkish players explaining how consistent their problems with the Turkish server are to Blade's. Dragging North America's server has always been a common topic for people, whether it's for the memes or serious discussion. Hell, some of these people aren't even from NA. But I don't think being banned for supposedly calling Turkey a "Dog shit region" is _entirely_ fair. From the looks of it, he meant the server as a whole is dog shit, not the whole country of Turkey. The R word? Yeah, won't defend. He shouldn't have said that, but I do think people are quick to paint the worst narrative of the guy. It's very easy to do to someone with a large following.
> [{quoted}](name=Jakra,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xAwEGhVa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-03T14:32:51.580+0000) > > I've looked at the reddit surrounding the issue, and I've seen Turkish players explaining how consistent their problems with the Turkish server are to Blade's. > > Dragging North America's server has always been a common topic for people, whether it's for the memes or serious discussion. Hell, some of these people aren't even from NA. But I don't think being banned for calling Turkey as "Dog shit region" is _entirely_ fair. From the looks of it, he meant the server as a whole is dog shit, not the whole country of Turkey. > > The R word? Yeah, won't defend. He shouldn't have said that, but I do think people are quick to paint the worst narrative of the guy. It's very easy to do to someone with a large following. Agreed, using the slur is arguably punishable. I think my point was more to address that you can actually observe people intentionally throwing the game yet they face no consequence, but using a slur somehow nets a suspension rather than just a chat restriction. It's fair to assume that the relative severity of a punishment based on an offense in a game should mirror relative severity of punishments in society. It's like calling a person a slur at work vs intentionally tampering with accounting numbers. Both will get you in trouble on the job, but deliberately misrepresenting financial information will have a much more severe punishment (you know, being a crime and all).
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Morgentau (EUW)
: Well, the argument is that if you're good enough to climb, you'll be able to transition your personal lead into a win for the team. I agree with you that this is extremely hard in low elo because bot lane 0-10 in 5 minutes, lulz. But what's the alternative? If individual performance is rewarded, it will be a game in which you don't give a flying fart about your team, all that matters is your own stats. You basically don't collaborate with your teammates anymore, they've essentially become your enemies. And that's at least problematic, don't you think? I concur with you though that it doesn't have to be black-and-white -- maybe some MINOR reward for exceptional individual performance is in order. Such as higher LP rewards for the top two players, or something like that. Yet, I'm still divided about this issue myself.
> [{quoted}](name=Morgentau,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-13T19:48:17.876+0000) > > Well, the argument is that if you're good enough to climb, you'll be able to transition your personal lead into a win for the team. I agree with you that this is extremely hard in low elo because bot lane 0-10 in 5 minutes, lulz. But what's the alternative? If individual performance is rewarded, it will be a game in which you don't give a flying fart about your team, all that matters is your own stats. You basically don't collaborate with your teammates anymore, they've essentially become your enemies. And that's at least problematic, don't you think? I concur with you though that it doesn't have to be black-and-white -- maybe some MINOR reward for exceptional individual performance is in order. Such as higher LP rewards for the top two players, or something like that. Yet, I'm still divided about this issue myself. I think you are somewhat on the same page as me. I do not want a game that strictly rewards individual performance regardless of outcome. That will negate the entire purpose of the game. I only support a punishment mitigation or reward boost for any and all strong performers in a game that is based on more than just "padded stats". Damage taken, cc applied, wards placed, proximity to turrets when they are destroyed, turret/epic monster damage done, etc are all factors in winning beyond just a good kda/cs score. I GUARANTEE that Riot can look at all of the tracked stat categories by role and figure out which ones contribute to winning and by how much. Then simply build a buffer around those stats. Just to give a very simple example: Say you are support Leona. You are not a damage dealer, nor do you cs, and it is basically expected that you will have more deaths than kills (but ideally a ton of assists). So Riot can look at support roles and see what matters. I'd be willing to bet a strong vision score, cc score, damage taken, being involved with turrets, dragons, and barons, and finally a good kda ("good" being subjective to hypothetically mean maybe 3+ kills or assists per death). If you finish 0/2/20 and your team still loses but you have the top vision score, top cc score, high damage taken, and good proximity to any objectives your team did take then why not reduce your punishment? Suppose a loss was going to be -20 lp for you but with a system that favors individual performance you only get -10 or -15. This way you aren't "rewarding" selfish players since it will still be better to have a shit score and win than it is to pad your stats and cost your team the game, but at least if you outperform your team and by extension do well against the enemy team then you shouldn't be punished the same as your mid laner that was convinced the last 7 turret dives they tried failed just because of bad luck and that their 8th dive would certainly work. Ideally this system would only be designed to mitigate those unwinnable games where your team just does EVERYTHING they can to lose. I'm not suggesting we are trying to nit-pick a 35-40 loss where everyone plays near the same level and one team just makes a good play/rotation to win the game. I mean the 8-30 stomps where you are 6/2/2 but your team is a combined 2/28/6. In theory it could dissuade someone from trying to win a game that feels unwinnable, but how often do you turn around a 15 minute blowout?
Vacus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:18:23.196+0000) > > Thanks for stopping by! You're right though, I should be more willing to take advice from random people on the internet. > > If you want a real piece of advice: don't bother responding to a post just to "offer advice" about something that is not related to the subject at hand. The way I write is based on how my brain works, and to me it makes sense. The point of writing is to communicate with other people. Whether or not it makes sense to you is irrelevant. I didn't actually read your wall of text, I assume it's the same rant I've been seeing for basically ten years, which can be summarized as "but I played well why does my team always feed". The answer to which is "if you really played that well, you'd be climbing".
> [{quoted}](name=Vacus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-13T00:55:41.002+0000) > > The point of writing is to communicate with other people. Whether or not it makes sense to you is irrelevant. > > I didn't actually read your wall of text, I assume it's the same rant I've been seeing for basically ten years, which can be summarized as "but I played well why does my team always feed". The answer to which is "if you really played that well, you'd be climbing". I agree writing is about communication, but many other people here had no problem reading and understanding my points. I was calling out the first guy because he decided to only respond with "I didn't like how you wrote your post, so I will not respond to it until you do right by me." The English in my post is fine, the structure is fine, the methodology is also fine. Saying "BUT IT'S NOT HOW I WANT IT TO BE" is the failure of the reader, not the writer. Your response was specifically addressed in my "wall of text". The response "if you really played that well, you'd be climbing" is incredibly short-sighted and dismissive or a larger point. The larger point being "why is your rank determined by your ability to carry 4 horrible players and takes no account of the possibility that one or more of your teammates may not be taking the game seriously?" Going a bit further, we are essentially saying "if you want to climb a division you need to play at a skill-level that is at least a full tier higher than your game." If you're currently silver 4 but play on par with a silver 2 or 3, how long do you think it will take you to climb to your "true" rank? My guess is a long time unless you get very lucky and land on teams that play correctly (as in they don't feed/afk/tilt beyond help/etc). I just had a game last night where I went 14/6/3 and was 2000 damage to champs away from matching the combined dmg to champs from the rest of my team. But yeah, it's me that's not playing that well. It couldn't be the fact that I am facing 4 players that get fed despite my best efforts by 4 teammates that have no intention of slowing down their feeding. The point is that I was clearly the best player in the game but I was matched with the 4 of the 5 worst in the game. Your response is simply to state that it's my fault for not being even better than the best player, which basically exonerates shitty players and allows them to continue being shitty. It also says the system is fine where you can play at a noticeably higher level than everyone else but if that noticeably higher level isn't high enough you don't deserve to win. That's like denying valedictorian honors to the top high school student unless they can write and defend a Master's-level thesis.
: 100% agree with op. the system he proposes exists in may other games, and works much better. players are less stressed/less toxic. because they their rewards/penalties are more in line with their performance. and eventually they climb to a rank where they are playing with players of their own skill lvl.
> [{quoted}](name=keccak256,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:14:21.492+0000) > > 100% agree with op. the system he proposes exists in may other games, and works much better. players are less stressed/less toxic. because they their rewards/penalties are more in line with their performance. and eventually they climb to a rank where they are playing with players of their own skill lvl. I think that's an excellent point that I didn't even discuss. A lot of the toxicity stems from the fact that one player's mistake hurts YOUR rank/MY rank. It's no big deal to watch a shitty player do shitty things if it only hurts them. It sucks for most of us caught in the grind because it just makes it harder to climb out of. And when you get unlucky and get a string of losses, your MMR falls so you play in a lower rank. In order to climb out of that lower rank you need to have an even higher winrate. For example, if you are silver 1 playing vs silver 1 and have a 53% win rate you will climb somewhat slowly. If you lose 5 straight and start playing mid-silver, a 53% win rate will mean you spend 100 games fixing your MMR and not even climbing. This happened to me last season when I hit plat 3. I won my promos but I lost 4 straight, won 2, then lost 4 again and not only was I demoted but I also was playing back in high gold. At that point I was gaining 15 LP for a win but losing 20-25. All because of a bad stretch over 10 games. It took so long to bring my MMR back and I wasn't even playing poorly over that 10 game stretch.
: > [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T18:55:21.530+0000) > > Yeah, if you think you were being nice and helpful then I have bad news for you lol. I simply stated we had DIFFERENT views of what formatting to use, your comments are the ones suggesting your formatting is superior. Your first response is also condescending, insulting, and overall not helpful. But please, continue telling me how I'm the one responding poorly. Actually, don't bother. I was simply asking for a discussion on a subject, not a lecture on writing from a pseudo-intellectual that cannot follow their own logic. I never claimed to be an intellectual, you have no responses because nobody wants to read your impenetrable wall of text Like, it's just a standard which arised because good ideas get overlooked simply due to the optics. my first comment? the one where I told you flat out that the meme i used was just a joke? Ok dude, you do you, when noone listens remember what formatting is. Your argument that your formatting is fine, my argument is that you actually don't have recognizable formatting. I honestly was trying to be helpful, sorry if you can't take constructive criticism. Enjoy where that takes you in life I'll just duck out.
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:01:02.371+0000) > > I never claimed to be an intellectual, you have no responses because nobody wants to read your impenetrable wall of text > > Like, it's just a standard which arised because good ideas get overlooked simply due to the optics. > > my first comment? the one where I told you flat out that the meme i used was just a joke? > > Ok dude, you do you, when noone listens remember what formatting is. Your argument that your formatting is fine, my argument is that you actually don't have recognizable formatting. > > I honestly was trying to be helpful, sorry if you can't take constructive criticism. Enjoy where that takes you in life I'll just duck out. Thanks for stopping by! You're right though, I should be more willing to take advice from random people on the internet. If you want a real piece of advice: don't bother responding to a post just to "offer advice" about something that is not related to the subject at hand. The way I write is based on how my brain works, and to me it makes sense. News flash: people write based off of their internal monologue, which is why the term "the writer's voice" exists. Instead of critiquing that, you are more than welcome to just move on with your life. Alternatively, you could just try to understand the post even though it's not how you would have written it and make no mention of the structure. If I wrote a post asking why nobody was responding then by all means chime in. But you felt the need to be THAT guy and you are wondering why I'm not responding positively to you. If you don't believe me, walk into a coffee shop and then file a complain with the manager saying you don't like the accent of the barista. Let me know how it goes.
xAcidik (NA)
: They do this in Overwatch, and it actually makes it so that you can lose more games than you win, and still climb. This is, in my opinion, not good. If you are better than the average player in your ELO, you WILL win more games than you lose. Sometimes, games are out of your control, and it sucks but in the games where your play makes the difference, you will win more often. Otherwise, in games where your play makes no difference (one lane gets extremely fed and hard carries), you may int and still win, or dominate your lane and still lose. Someone made a post about this on Reddit once and it was much more cleanly explained than what I just did. Anyway, the individual performance LP gain in Overwatch caused tanks whose primary job was not to do damage or get kills to get more LP or lose less LP if they did a lot of damage or got a lot of kills. Because of this, it basically rewarded tanks for bad play, in a lot of circumstances, by giving or taking a favorable amount of LP (SR in Overwatch), and people are far too focused on their individual performance than doing what is important for the team. This doesn't make it any less frustrating though when your outstanding individual performance is rewarded with a loss. I just think it is the superior option.
> [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-12T18:59:27.844+0000) > > They do this in Overwatch, and it actually makes it so that you can lose more games than you win, and still climb. This is, in my opinion, not good. If you are better than the average player in your ELO, you WILL win more games than you lose. Sometimes, games are out of your control, and it sucks but in the games where your play makes the difference, you will win more often. Otherwise, in games where your play makes no difference (one lane gets extremely fed and hard carries), you may int and still win, or dominate your lane and still lose. Someone made a post about this on Reddit once and it was much more cleanly explained than what I just did. > > Anyway, the individual performance LP gain in Overwatch caused tanks whose primary job was not to do damage or get kills to get more LP or lose less LP if they did a lot of damage or got a lot of kills. Because of this, it basically rewarded tanks for bad play, in a lot of circumstances, by giving or taking a favorable amount of LP (SR in Overwatch), and people are far too focused on their individual performance than doing what is important for the team. Are you able to find that Reddit post? I'd be interested in reading it. And I completely get the tank discussion. The idea though is that a good tank will still have a lot of assists, and cc score/damage taken are likely factors that contribute to winning games and therefore can be weighted accordingly. I'd have to do a more thorough dive to give specifics, but I really think this can be tuned for different roles appropriately. And again, I do not want to eliminate the team outcome factoring into your rank, I think the ability to win or lose as a team matters but it's very much an incomplete picture.
: > [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T18:05:50.092+0000) > > Formatting is fine, it's just a different outline than you would have thought to use. Do you have a specific request that would help you understand this better? Uhh basic essay structure, maybe justify, indent on paragraphs, maybe some headers for topic swaps,
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T18:08:52.006+0000) > > Uhh basic essay structure, maybe justify, indent on paragraphs, maybe some headers for topic swaps, Okay, thanks for the feedback. It is duly noted.
: https://media.makeameme.org/created/your-formatting-is.jpg Jk, but yeah this is too long for me to follow. maybe with cleaner formatting
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-12T17:55:38.428+0000) > > https://media.makeameme.org/created/your-formatting-is.jpg > > Jk, but yeah this is too long for me to follow. maybe with cleaner formatting Formatting is fine, it's just a different outline than you would have thought to use. Do you have a specific request that would help you understand this better?
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: The problem with tying it to grade means you'll have more players working to stall out the game to influence their gains/losses rather than simply winning the game. If there was a much better capacity for metrics, like determining how many of someone's multiple deaths were simply being reckless or being focused under tower, this might be a valid solution. However, we have another precedent already showing that it doesn't work. Overwatch, a team-based shooter, actually removed that feature from their MMR influence because players weren't closing out games and using padding to unfairly influence their progress. So given that Overwatch couldn't make it work with fewer metrics to track, why do you think it's possible for League to make it work?
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=RnZpMUc0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-04T03:11:40.776+0000) > > The problem with tying it to grade means you'll have more players working to stall out the game to influence their gains/losses rather than simply winning the game. > > If there was a much better capacity for metrics, like determining how many of someone's multiple deaths were simply being reckless or being focused under tower, this might be a valid solution. > > However, we have another precedent already showing that it doesn't work. Overwatch, a team-based shooter, actually removed that feature from their MMR influence because players weren't closing out games and using padding to unfairly influence their progress. > > So given that Overwatch couldn't make it work with fewer metrics to track, why do you think it's possible for League to make it work? That's interesting, do you have more info on the Overwatch experiment?
Rioter Comments
: u mad bro?
> [{quoted}](name=Calamitosus Cini,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kVEi43Lw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-09T01:10:02.053+0000) > > u mad bro? I don't believe in getting mad over a game. But if I see a Riot employee on the street it's totally gonna be a shirt's off dance-off.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Broodpaal (EUW)
: Dude... it is an online game. It is going to happen, you will have to get used to it. I sure have... If you play enough that 20 lp won't mean anything. It is sad but the administration of giving everyone LP after a server went down is impossible... not hard to do... impossible.
As I said, 40 minutes passed and Riot wasn't aware of the issue. Sad that that much time can pass and loss prevention isn't turned on. Not to mention, NA servers were about 60 ping higher than usual all morning, so they should have been able to spot this sooner. At the very least they could have prepared for an issue by getting damage control ready.
Rioter Comments
: I also just experienced this issue in game as Katarina. Only, for my case, Q, R, and B stopped casting entirely, even after I tried to cast through the HUD. Tried resetting keys to default, normal cast, quick cast, binding the spells to other keys, and resetting client. None of these worked and for the remainder of the game I could only cast E and W, and had to run back to base.
: I had the same problems yesterday mine was after kills as well its been happening since patch 5.3 when they "buffed" her skills animations finishing "faster" http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/rE5t9Bq1-gameplay-bug-with-katarinas-skills-freezing
I can't believe this has been going on and Riot hasn't fixed it. We both lost the same abilities too it would seem. Obvious coding error and Riot is like "sure, let us worry about DJ Sona then we can get to it."
Rioter Comments
Cale017 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tl7okinn,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-01T21:15:02.596+0000) > > The crab actually takes a zig-zag walk through the river (he even walks through the little brush patch), so you would in fact have to shroom very close to the edges in order to avoid the crab. Hell, he walked into one of my shrooms at the base of the ramp that faces the baron pit. That's pretty damn close to the wall. Have you actually noticed his walking paths? I didn't before this game, and when he popped 2 shrooms near the base of the ramps leading into the jungle (one by blue team's blue buff, the other was by my team's jungle access near wraiths) I started realizing how erratically he moves. It's funny you point that out, because I loaded into a match as Rek'Sai earlier and noticed when I was cruisin' around burrowed just how janky his walk path is. Odd, I could have *sworn* that the crabs stayed close to the center of the river any other time I'd seen them.
Yeah, when I noticed its pathing I realized how annoying it actually is. Just a new thing to control if you use shrooms for objective control.
Cale017 (NA)
: You don't have to put it smack up against the wall. Crab doesn't take up the entire width of the river, and the trigger range for shrooms is plenty large that you can have it out of the way of crab closer to the wall and still lead people through it just fine.
The crab actually takes a zig-zag walk through the river (he even walks through the little brush patch), so you would in fact have to shroom very close to the edges in order to avoid the crab. Hell, he walked into one of my shrooms at the base of the ramp that faces the baron pit. That's pretty damn close to the wall. Have you actually noticed his walking paths? I didn't before this game, and when he popped 2 shrooms near the base of the ramps leading into the jungle (one by blue team's blue buff, the other was by my team's jungle access near wraiths) I started realizing how erratically he moves.
Cale017 (NA)
: Might I suggest not putting your shrooms in the smack dab middle of the river, and instead warding the area directly in front of Baron but inside his pit instead? Shrooms closer to the walls will give you almost as much vision while avoiding being popped by the crab and, more than likely, are also going got be walked over more often than ones in the middle of the river.
The whole point of my shroom placement is to set a battlefield for my team. It basically gives us a maze to lead them through so we can fight or disengage as needed. Putting shrooms on the wall does give vision sure, but it doesn't set the field effectively.
Rioter Comments
: You can log in using VPN like CyberGhost, its free works well just set it to LA server boom you can log in and will have normal ping. Unfortunately this is the only way i can log in and would love a fix for this haha I hate having to use this just to play a game.
I'm going to test this out. If it doesn't work I will find you and tickle you.
: You do realise that I can snag a lot of CS just from Wraiths and roaming, right? My CS as Nasus has been consistantly low, I admit that, because I'm still not used to his very passive early game and his AA animations. As Yasuo and Renekton it's very easy to CS because they have very good wave clear (Nasus does have good wave clear but early you wouldn't do that because you need Q-stacks plus your E uses alot of mana). I can assure you that every game as a non-support/jg my goal is 100 CS by 10 minutes. If not, by 13 minutes. The champions I play have very good wave clear making CS very easy to get plus Golems and Wraiths factor into that. At times, yeah, I might be lower than 90 by 10 minutes but that's only against enemies I have to play passively against such as Darius. And yeah, I admit I still have to practice Nasus and when to TP since I generally don't play as a TP top laner. As Yasuo I can get a good score almost always (There exceptions, especially against hard counters like Malz or Liss) and I do know how to roam (Though I admittedly don't do it as often as I'd like to, thanks for the tip). And yeah, I killed Veigar the most because he was always getting caught out unlike Corki who stayed in the backline while their frontline peeled for him. I killed Corki a couple of times but it was never enough since Swain's teamfighting is just so powerful. Also, I haven't been playing my mains recently, so I wouldn't think it'd be wise to judge based on my last 10 games.
Again my point stands. With the new jungle timers on camps (respawn every 100s), 250+ at 20 minutes is still highly difficult to pull off. If you took wraiths as they respawned for 20 minutes, you would get 10 camps from them which is 40 cs. So now perfect cs INCLUDING wraiths is 268 by 20 mins. If you really are doing that then you have to be complete shit to not carry with that much gold and experience at 20 minutes. The lead you would have would be astounding, so not being able to carry implies an incredibly weak player. So maybe it is safe to say 250+ cs at 20 minutes is a bit of an exaggeration. Consider this: the record for cs in competitive play is held by Froggen who hit 300 cs at 23 minutes. He not only had almost perfect lane cs, he was also taking wraiths and wolves when they had 50s respawn timers. Your claim would mean you are outclassing the best solo laners in the world. Can you please understand how it is hard to believe a silver 5 can consistently outperform LCS players? Now, I remembered that this site allows you to view extended histories. Allow me to share ALL of your Yasuo and Renekton games cs and game duration: Yasuo ranked: 5/9/8 98 cs in 26+ minutes Renek ranked: 1/7/11 256 cs in 41+ minutes Yasuo ranked: 4/12/7 206 cs in 36.5 minutes Renek ranked: 3/13/4 209 cs in 43+ minutes Yasuo ranked: 1/1/8 153 cs in 22+ minutes Yasuo ranked: 7/6/9 192 cs in 34 minutes Renek ranked: 8/11/9 257 cs in 50+ minutes Yasuo ranked: 6/7/7 204 cs in 35.5 minutes Yasuo ranked: 9/14/14 204 cs 41.75 minutes Renek ranked: 0/10/0 67 cs in 21 minutes. Renek ranked: 3/5/0 251 cs in 39+ minutes Now I hate to be a dick, but I don't see a single game that comes anywhere close to your claims about your cs skills. I see a silver player on mains that performs at a level consistent with silver. More importantly, I see a player that comes NOWHERE close to carrying on his main, has 2 decent games and wants to complain about his shitty luck. Now understand, these numbers I posted are every ranked game on renek or yas you have played in the last 2 weeks. Not a single one of those performances is impressive to the level you are claiming, and not only that but your best games are on par for maybe a low gold (your 2 yasuo games with a 1/1/8 and a 7/6/9 are acceptable for a high silver/low gold). Your 8 ranked Yasuo games have given you an average of 5.9/7.3/8.3. That's not even a 2:1 kda, so I fail to see how you think you can always get a good score with Yasuo. I'm really not trying to be mean, but don't open a thread asking how you can carry "these kind[s] of players" when you really aren't carrying anyone. To be honest, your performances are a detriment to your team. Of the 12 games I posted, you won 2 (the Yasuo games that I said your performance was decent but in both games you had people carrying. Your 1/1/8 game featured a 12/1 bot lane and your 7/6/9 Yasuo game you had a 19/8/5 Cass.). This tells me that you are really only performing well if your team is performing well. That is not what carrying means. You are suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is actually something observed most commonly in lower Elo. I remember when I was "stuck" in mid silver I was convinced I was every bit as good as higher Elo players. As fate would have it when I was in silver 2 I was matched in a normal against Cao Mei (former top laner for the Chinese team WE, highest paid LoL streamer currently). I was so proud to go only 1/2 in lane against him (the kill I had was a gank from my jungle and top lane, I managed to get the kill), but by 20 minutes he had more than triple my cs and was 8/1/6. After that I realized my own skill was lacking and I needed to find ways to improve. I did, I watched the replay of him crushing me and I noticed some sizable differences in skill between me and him. My advice to you is don't misunderstand that having 2 decent games (I use the term decent lightly, it is very clear both games you contributed less to your team than your opponent did, you just did okay in lane phase) does not mean you are stuck due to bad teams. Your own level of play needs to reach a consistent level that is above your current rank. I look at your match history and I see a player that can (somewhat) hold his own at his current rank, but not someone stomping his games. When you start having 4:1 kdas, having 200 cs by 25 minutes, and effectively roaming/securing objectives then you can complain if you are still a low rank. Work on the basics like csing, warding, rotations, etc. and then you will start to climb. Most low Elo players neglect these basics and that is what separates you from the stronger players. As you are getting the fundamentals down, also work on your mechanics. Mechanics alone can carry a player into at least gold, and I am still shocked at how many plat players still can't orb walk.
Rioter Comments
: Yeah, my CS ended up being bad those games but normally it's not this bad. I aim for 100 by the 10 minute mark but for some reason I can't do that as Nasus. If you check my other games as Renekton and Yasuo, you might see me having 100+ by 10 minutes and 250+ my 20 minutes. It's simply cause I'm more used to playing them and judging the timing of their AA animations. And idk why, but I tend to not buy too many wards as a top laner other than a vision ward for the tribush. As an ADC, support and mid laner I always buy visions regularly, switching my trinket for a sweeping lens. I just have to work on my CS as Nasus particularly since I'm still not used to his AA animation and damage.
Dude, we can't help you if you are making stuff up. Perfect cs at 10 minutes is 107 (assuming you kill the wave that should be just arriving mid at about 10 mins). Perfect cs at 20 mins is I believe 228 (approx). So when you make these claims about 100+ by 10 mins, understand you are csing at a level that would be strong in the LCS (Faker averages 90-100 almost every game in the LCS by 10 mins). Looking at your games, your cs is very inconsistent. Granted I can only see your last 10, but some games you cs on par for a low gold player, and others you cs at or below your current rank. Consistent play is one of the most effective tools for climbing in ranked. Also, do you have LoL Replay or some other recording program? After you play a game and you want to evaluate your performance you should watch the replay. Compare your play to a Challenger player playing that same champion (watch Sirchezz play Susan and see what he does that makes him so good with him). Lastly, looking at your Nasus game vs Swain, yes your adc was bad. But your claim about focusing the adc first is a lie. The Veigar had the most deaths for their team because he was running tp/ignite. My guess is you went after Veigar while Corki was just destroying. Corki was in on 40 kills with only 9 deaths. That to me is an adc that was not properly focused. As Nasus, you don't have to kill Corki, just wither him to negate the damage on his autos from trinity procs and then zone him out while destroying the rest of his team. If he comes back, wither him again. Also, Swain was in on 9 more kills than you despite the fact that their team only had 1 more kill than yours (47-48). This score combined with your significantly higher cs suggests you fell into the "Nasus trap" which is where you spent too much time mid game stacking while Swain was roaming. The idea of roaming is lost on most low Elo players. You asked how you carry bad bot lanes? It's simple, babysit them. If you are running tp top, tp down to them whenever you see the enemy is pushed or the second they start fighting. If you are mid, ALWAYS look to gank bot. Yasuo is a highly effective roaming mid when played correctly since he has gap close, damage negation, cc, and very high damage. Winning your lane is great and all, but what you do with that lead is more important. I main mid and I currently play in mid plat Elo, and let me tell you feeding doesn't stop there. But I ALWAYS play my role well and do my job as well as picking up slack from others. If you check my history, you will see a 10/4/10 Kat loss. I absolutely crushed Annie mid and followed her on every roam she tried bot lane, got a bunch of kills, and almost carried. The fun story about that game is that my team only had 26 kills while dying 33 times. I participated in about 80% of team kills while only contributing to around 12% of team deaths. On top of that, my roams allowed us to almost come back. At 19 minutes we were down 9-21 (I had 100% kill participation at that point being 5/1/4), and then I started stomping teamfights. By 22 minutes we were down 21-26. The reason we lost was mostly due to the enemy team capitalizing on egregious mistakes by my teammates and taking objectives for free (they took mid inhib turret with Annie and Ez because I was top lane clearing a massive wave getting to our inner turret, and my Udyr and Cait decided they wanted to come top to try to snag the last few cs instead of protecting mid when Annie and Ez went to bd our low inhib turret). But I'm not upset with that game. It stands out to me now because even though I had such a bad team, my play is consistently at that level and I am enjoying winning more than I am losing once I get a 2nd teammate that knows how to play. Your Nasus vs Swain game featured a dominating performance by Ahri that was negated by a feeding Vayne. You were too ineffective compared to your lane opponent, and their jungler was better than yours. On top of that, their support had a better engage than yours, so your team lost. Just fyi, final scores of my teammates from my Kat loss: Udyr: 4/8/7 Cait: 5/6/3 Thresh: 2/5/8 Yi (jungle): 5/10/11 Unlike your game, I truly had nobody doing well even after all the help I was giving, and we still turned a 9-21 game at 19 minutes (down by almost 5k) into a 31 minute game losing by 7 kills, and we cut a 6k gold deficit at 21 minutes to under a 3k deficit by 22 minutes. tl;dr: If you perform consistently well you will start to win. Since your play is inconsistent you are not winning or carrying.

JeebusCripes

Level 119 (NA)
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