Rioter Comments
: One thing that ive learned about this game is that people are slowly starting to lose understanding of match-ups and how to play against champions. Just because you are hard countered and/or do not know how to lane against a champion does not mean they are broken. I can play Annie against Zoe and still win that lane because i understand her cooldowns are long and its hard for her to get around minions. I don't even have too take cleanse to win because i know how to punish champions who miss their skillshots. Alternatively ive seen those same people who call Zoe broken, let her miss her Q and E, and while they are on cooldown, let her walk up and take a spell instead of punishing her for every skill show missed. People are less willing to learn how to fight against champions now.
One thing I've learned about this game is that you can't have an opinion on a characters kit being bad for the game and a negative play experience because of what it does and how it works without people assuming you mean the champion is broken or overpowered even when you EXPLICITLY put that in your post about the champion just being bad/unfun game design. They just immediately assume you aren't willing to learn or counter or whatever other arbitrary (and wrong) reason to write you off and discount your opinion just because they either disagree with you or have a vested interest and bias because they named their account after said champion for some reason.
TisBis (NA)
: Have you ever tried to dodge a yasuo tornado?
Yep, I've done it before. You can't dodge his dash knockup, but he has to get in close range to do that leaving him more vulnerable to getting stopped.
TisBis (NA)
: Just jump on top of her, if she has no W her R won't help her at all, meanwhile kass, talon, zed, kat, and yas can blink/dash out in seconds
Again, you keep setting up the promised situations. "Just jump on her, if she doesn't have her W, and if she's not being protected, and if she doesn't hit her skillshots, etc etc etc." Anyone can talk and make a champion seem super weak. Just fight Yasuo away from minions and he won't have multiple dashes, and dodge his knockup, and avoid getting hit by his ultimate.
Starleap (NA)
: She **_always_** returns to her cast location. She hits R = you **_know where she will be one second later_**. Your mistake is targeting where she R'd to.
Yea and Xerath NEVER moves. What is your point? Xerath and Zoe are not even comparable in the least, they both work entirely different and have vastly different abilities.
: ***
So you claim you're not insulting me, and then immediately follow that up with calling me ignorant. I'll be glad when they ban people like you from the forums.
TisBis (NA)
: She actually has no mobility, high mobility champs are Yasuo and Katarina I'd fight a Zoe over a Yasuo any day
Yea, it's not like she can load up flash on her w and get movespeed bonus, and blink into the fight then right back out with her ultimate. There's zero abilities in Zoe's kit that have any mobility attached to them what-so-ever.
: "i can't play against something, so it must not be good for the game.Wav" better?
Just going to report all your troll posts if you're not going to bother to read my post and you're going to continue to insult me.
: > Who has to essentially root himself in place while he charges up to get that range Huh, just like Zoe does with her R...
That's not even remotely the same thing. Zoe doesn't get stuck in place by her ultimate, because it puts her back to where she cast it from after 1 second. She can still cast her other abilities independent of her ultimate, and her ultimate still allows her to jump back even if she gets stunned while using it. So in essence, there's actually no comparison between Xerath Q and Zoe R in ANY way, at all.
: Thanks for openly admitting you don't want to have a real discussion in your thread.
It's about my feedback on the champion, if you just came here to insult me and talk about how the champion isn't imbalanced, then you didn't bother to read the thread, and therefor you aren't actually here to discuss anything to begin with.
: Ouu, Anyone else smell the Bias and scent of "I can't learn to play against something so I say it's busted" In the air? {{sticker:vayne-pose}}
"I'm not trying to say that she is broken, or overpowered, or anything of the sort." Weird, I smell a lack of reading comprehension and bias on your part since you can't be bothered to read my post before commenting insulting nonsense.
: {{champion:101}} *cough Range cough*
Who has to essentially root himself in place while he charges up to get that range, instead of being able to run around freely independent of his spell.
Starleap (NA)
: Her W is meant to be used offensively, she can’t use it defensively nearly as well. It’s the same idea as Yasuo’s E. it’s a super conditional ability, and if you flash for her, she is not going to get that flash without going back in your direction. While “one shotting” is something that she does, it still requires her to use nearly her entire kit (E, Q passive and R) to be able to do so. In which case it’s actually 3 instances of damage. You rarely see her be able to destroy someone directly with Q and R unless she’s really ahead, and all champs do that when they’re ahead. And the true damage isn’t really true damage it’s just so that it’s not hit by resistances twice. To add more to this, try playing her when the enemy has Merc Treads. That shit really cucks Zoe cuz it’ll give her a super low window to hit you with Q after sleeping you. If you hate a champion, either ban it or learn how to deal with them. She’s probably a bit overtuned but generally balanced atm
1. If you think that holding onto a flash while having a large movespeed attached to the usage of that ability is not effective defensively, you have a very skewed view of the game. If you were talking about her R, I would agree 100%, but her W, come on and be realistic. 2. You have Zoe in your summoner name, it's hard for me to take anything you are saying seriously. 3. Again, it's NOT ABOUT HER STRENGTH. It's about what she does being insanely frustrating and a poor play experience, even when you are winning. The fact that some things affect her negatively too just makes the play experience bad for people playing her too. She's all around bad design.
: Yeah because reworking her would make her weaker and less frusterating. {{champion:266}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:84}}
I didn't ask for her to be reworked and made worse or weaker. Actually, making her a stronger champion is fine in a rework, if what she does changes from being cc into one shot. Too many people on these forums seem to think that this is a complaint about Zoe's strength, when it has NOTHING to do with how powerful or strong of a champion she is.
Terozu (NA)
: Front loaded means it's instataneous with no delay, her Q has a wind up her w is damage over time and her is delayed. Literally nothing about her is front loaded.
You're using a different definition of front loaded then me, doesn't make you right and me wrong. I just explained what I meant by front loaded, if you don't like that I don't care.
: Wow, what? We still have threads complaining about a completely balanced champion who has clear counterplay in nearly every aspect of her kit?
Yea, because if you bothered to read the post, it had nothing to do with her power. It's about how a champion designed to one shot people from long range with long duration CC is not a fun champion to play against. It's not enjoyable.
: How is her kit "frontloaded" in any way?
High base damage, immediate access to full benefits from her utility abilities. Her sleep cc has no duration scaling between ranks, only the slow scales (which is the least important part of the 2.25 second CC) and the damage. Really nearly all of her abilities get full benefit and range of effect EXCEPT for damage, which is already high from base. Most other champions that have crowd control or high base damage have to give up scaling utility or other aspects to build themselves up, Zoe just has access to nearly all of it right away.
hoganftw (NA)
: She's just not fun to play against. I wouldn't say that she's completely broken, at least not how she used to be. However, just seeing your champion get drowsy, sit there for an hour, and get hit by an almost unavoidable bubble from the fog of war that deletes your health bar isn't fun. Not knocking the people who play her, as I'm sure it requires skill. The kit just exists to make sure your opponents are having a bad time.
Which is the entire point of my post. I even mentioned that it wasn't about her balance, it was about sniping champs with built in CC being bad for gameplay experience. Some people though just want to flex their troll muscles with the "learn to play" responses. Instead of you know, realizing this is a response to the negative direction of the game and how it's no longer fun as it once was because of negative play experiences created by champions like Zoe. Win or lose, if a game contains Zoe, I am literally never having fun in that game.
: Zoe feels terrible to play against, by design. Not sure what people think they'll accomplish by downvoting this. Do they think I'm GC's smurf or something?
Yea GC can go shove it, he's a terrible dev and the fact Riot hired him after he left Blizzard (but not before he ruined WoW hard) shows they have lost touch with their playerbase. My issue isn't with losing to Zoe, if I beat Zoe, I still hate having played that game, because at NO point during said game was I having fun, because Zoe is an inherently unfun gaming experience. Long range burst mages that have cc built into their kits that are designed to one shot players are NEVER going to be good for the game. They are always going to be a negative play experience, and therefor the only way to keep them in check is to make them weaker and make the barrier of entry to play them harder. There's a reason Leblanc was one of those champions that didn't get played very much, but that was always on the forefront of people's minds in competitive games, same with Ryze. You can't build champions like Zoe and make them fun for the game. GC is just plain wrong, like he normally is.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HrEsL2U1,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-15T05:18:16.378+0000) > > That doesn't change the fact she's bad design. I don't want to be forced to have to constantly ban her over and over, what happens when I don't get a ban? Why should I have to forcibly ban her every single game when the issue is that she's terribly unfun design? How does my observation and feedback over this champions design change just because I can ban her? The answer is it doesn't. Exactly that. It doesn’t change your views on her. Yeah, on one or two aspects I can agree on your thought process, but you have people commenting and giving you great advice on how to get around that bad design. Yes, we know you hate her design. Yes, we can relate. But what can we do other than give you friendly advice or share our opinions? Nothing else. You wanna be a better player who can beat back any Zoe players? Take the commenters’ advice to heart, learn to dodge those snooze bubbles (or learn to play Yasuo because he shits on her hard). Or, you know, DON’T. It’s your choice.
Your advice wasn't asked for at all. That was your decision to come here and do so. Since there is no more champion feedback forum, I didn't know where else to out my frustrations over the direction the game is going and the lack of control I have over my play experience. The game keeps changing every year into something far different than it used to be, and it's insanely frustrating that the playerbase is getting more and more unhappy, streamers are openly bashing League, or just straight up leaving it entirely, and there's no effort to change that. I feared the worst when Ghostcrawler was brought on board, because WoW ended up going the EXACT same direction when he was with Blizzard. And I find it INSULTING that you think I can't dodge snooze bubbles. That's not the issue. The problem is that it's not FUN to be spending my entire game having to dodge tons of broken abilities that completely violate the expectations of League and create a negative play experience. I DON'T CARE ABOUT BEATING ZOE, I JUST HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT ZOE AND HOW SHE KILLS THE GAME FOR ME. It's not enjoyable to kill the rest of Zoe's team, then get randomly one shot after dodging all her sleep bubbles and q's during the team fights, and it's certainly not fun to just instantly die with no way to deal with it because someone landed a lucky hit through fog of war. Her abilities are very generous and extremely front loaded, other champions actually have to work for their damage, all Zoe has to do is spew them out. Sure, the difference between a good Zoe and a bad one is clear, but that's stupid to suggest she's a fair and fun champion just because Yasuo can beat her (which btw League is a team game, so big surprise there ONE PERSON CAN'T JUST GRANT THAT EVERY TIME) I'm sick and tired of the attitude on the forums being "learn to play" because I shouldn't have to deal with something like Zoe in the first place, it's a champion that is extremely unfun for me. Am I just supposed to not have fun with the game just because I don't play Yasuo? Are players of all aspects not allowed to enjoy the game? Zoe violates the rules and effects that ALL OTHER CHAMPIONS follow by herself, and that's extremely frustrating.
: ***
He's wrong because all of the artillery champions I have played against and none of them play anywhere near the same level of frustration as Zoe, which I stated in the opening this is MY FEEDBACK. So yes, he's wrong, because this isn't a thread about changing my mind. If you want to try doing that, go somewhere else, because the only truth here is that Zoe is annoying frustrating and unfun for me to play against, none of the other champions are. I never am in a game asking "where is the Ziggs/Vel'Koz/etc that just killed me out of nowhere and how can I find them and kill them.?" I literally will die out of nowhere from a single hit from Zoe with no idea it was coming, and there's almost no way to get to her on the backline because she's that much further away than anyone else, and she can protect herself too. Even if I wanted to flash on her, she can just pick up my long cooldown flash and use her w and get away easily. It's absurd because none of the other "artillery" champions have that kind of mobility. They are all low movespeed no dash stationary targets. Zoe is the only high movespeed non-stationary with the ability to utilize the power of summoner spells on an ability slot, and has a dash, which while not an escape, provides her with the ability to heavily disrupt attempts to shut her down.
iiGazeii (NA)
: Zoe is an artillery champion, and she's not the only one. Champions like Ziggs, Lux, Xerath, Vel'Koz, and Jayce can sit really far back and deal pretty consistent damage to their enemy. Having long range spells isn't unique to Zoe. If Zoe just sits under tower and spams Q at the wave, she won't really get anything done. If you're there pushing with autos, you'll eventually push the wave into the tower. She can certainly deal damage from under tower, but it's not enough to totally outshove you unless you aren't touching the wave. She'll eventually run out of mana trying to shove from under turret. The counter to Zoe isn't to CC her when she jumps in. She isn't an assassin. She's a mage. You need to jump on her original position where she will have no escape other than a single-target CC on a long cooldown. If she already used that, she's toast. You engage on her so that her range is useless. If you can dodge Ahri's Charm, you can dodge Zoe's Sleep. They're both blocked by minions and they have comparable travel times.
Doesn't change my opinion, Zoe is STILL worse than all over those, and her kit works entirely different. None of those champions are even close to Zoe. So you're just wrong.
Infernape (EUW)
: My one glaring gripe with Zoe is aside from her being able to oneshot squishies with a single ability or two, is that she absolutely shits on the idea of summoner spells existing. You're punished for using Flash, Ghost or whatever to escape her. You Flash, she picks up your Flash, uses it, then runs you down at mach 10.
Agreed, and not only does she get the summoner spells, she gets the active items too. So it's like "We know Summoner Spells are some of the most powerful abilities available to champions, so Zoe not only gets to use everyone else's, she also needs active items from those champions too, because her kit isn't frontloaded enough."
Shiƒter (NA)
: This. I'd rather fight a Zoe than a damn Ahri. Ahri is still one of my most hated champions.
I disagree. I can dodge Ahri's charm, she has to get into a similar range as other champions, Ahri might have lots of mobility, but she's going to have to get into range at some point. There's a radius or range that all champions in the game play at, Zoe is the ONLY champion in the game that gets to play at a much further distance than anyone else. I can't just wait for Zoe to pop into range and throw cc on her, because her ultimate will still pull her away even when I do. But if Ahri goes in with her ultimate I can stun/root/silence her which means she's not going anywhere for that entire time. And what does space have to do with anything? Ok, the jungler spends his ENTIRE time sitting on a lane that never has to leave her turret because she can literally have full control of the lane from that distance. Your arguments are that Zoe has the same weakness as every midlaner, but only to the jungle. Her kit is literally a negative play experience, because she plays the game at a different range than everyone else and there's almost zero risk required on her part. The only risk is if she can't hit her abilities, she won't do damage, but that's a risk inherent to all champions. Nothing forces Zoe to have to engage, nothing makes her have to get out of position, nothing requires her to have to do anything at all. Which makes her doubly frustrating in game modes where the normal laning doesn't work the same way like Nexus Blitz. And before you even say anything about it, it IS a game mode, it DOES deserve to be balanced, and they've already made balance changes, buffing Zoe which I find absolutely stupid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HrEsL2U1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T04:59:23.837+0000) > > I see you didn’t read my post. Thanks for commenting without doing that. I mean... it’s best to assure that Zoe gets banned over taking a chance. Unless I directly counter that specific champion, I always make sure to ban him/her/it. So I just say make it a habit of banning her if you hate her that much. Or you know, don’t.
That doesn't change the fact she's bad design. I don't want to be forced to have to constantly ban her over and over, what happens when I don't get a ban? Why should I have to forcibly ban her every single game when the issue is that she's terribly unfun design? How does my observation and feedback over this champions design change just because I can ban her? The answer is it doesn't.
Shiƒter (NA)
: You could just ban her if you hate her that much. Unless you're playing Blind Picks for some reason.
I see you didn't read my post. Thanks for commenting without doing that.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1sWmF8Ek,comment-id=000e000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-10T13:11:42.962+0000) > > Actually all you said was that at the 30 minute mark the Vayne will one shot you, which is a false statement. > > There's nothing inherent about the arbitrary 30 minute mark that grants Vayne some kind of God Mode, there are plenty of other champions that scale VERY well in league. > > If you shut down the Vayne during laning phase and stifle her cs, she will be slow to gain her power spikes and your team can easily roll her over. > > If you don't do that and you allow her to gain her items and advantages, sure she can become a powerful late game carry, but that's because SHE SCALES. > > So no, the only thing you've done so far is whine and complain and make false statements, which is why people are telling you to stop talking, and I would further say you should evaluate your play before making any more incorrect statements about the game. Btw,the buffs were Reverted. GGs.
Actually all they did was push it to another patch, they confirmed this on Reddit, the changes aren't going anywhere better get used to it.
: ***
You once again quoted the compared to all other champions fallacy, which I told you was wrong. Stop bothering with false statistics if you can't be bothered to listen the first time.
: I did know that the q proc is a bug but a hyper carry that's mobile as fuck and has a stealth ability healing to literally full hp after killing a tank with her 14% true dmg every 3rd auto is stupid. It would've been balanced if there was only an adc but you need to know that there are viruses like lulu janna and soraka walking around so focusing something like that in late game is literally impossible.
Vayne is one of the LEAST mobile champions in the game...
: ***
Well you are wrong and you've already proven my point. I'll leave you with this then I'm done with you, because you're just getting unreasonable at this point: If it was entirely that the net result was too much power, and that less changes would be welcome, then why did you and everyone else keep saying it was a "straight buff" when it wasn't and never once mentioned the differences between the r healing and the q->w damage restructuring. If the q crit nerf and w damage buff cancel out, why not say that's fine but don't give her healing on R? You didn't say that. Other people didn't say that. You're trying to say that now, after I've called you out. No, the real reason is you just don't want to see Vayne get ANY changes that could even potentially be seen as a buff, even if it's not, and definitely not on w because you personally don't like it and literally NO OTHER REASON. That's become painfully apparent since you are backpeddling and trying to say something different than what you first said. Just admit you are biased and move on.
: ***
Nobody cared about the ultimate healing, and it's not even sure that the healing even works well enough to be a big change. 100% everyone was upset about the w buff and the q bug because they flew off the handles. I bet you money that if the ultimate wasn't touched and it was just the q crit removal and the w damage buff the SAME outrage would have been there. Because it's not about how the changes affect her, it's 100% that some people don't like Vayne and don't like her w. You included.
: ***
And again, this is why you are ignorant of the balance changes. It wasn't a straight buff, it was a change from having crit based q damage inconsistently to having more consistent w damage. That's not a straight buff, there is no situation where a nerf to one form of damage and a buff to another can ever be considered a straight buff. I'm not delusional or grasping at anything, you're just not listening at all and letting your ignorance blind you. Which, I mean, was the whole purpose of the thread. Calling out people like you.
: ***
Actually the community does agree with me, a small and extremely vocal majority of ignorant haters doesn't, and also people who have no idea what they are talking about or how champion balance works at all (that's you). But there's been a fair amount of people actually talking about the issues and people generally want to see the Vayne changes come back. So you can make these false statements all you want, you're wrong. You don't compare champions to all other champions, roles are not artificial they are clearly labeled in the game by Riot themselves, and the fact you don't even get that is more than enough reason to ignore you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43kqwtWK,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-08-10T15:46:10.094+0000) > > Somehow I don't believe that you had an informed opinion on the situation, and I also feel like there's a misleading statement here. So your opinion is pretty weak. "I don't agree with you, therefore I will dismiss your opinion"
No, I don't believe you put forth anything other than trolling and misleading suggestions in a short and insulting way, therefor I don't believe you were TRUTHFUL in your statement. Difference there. Try again.
: I have a PBE account, I also did not want that to make it live
Somehow I don't believe that you had an informed opinion on the situation, and I also feel like there's a misleading statement here. So your opinion is pretty weak.
: ***
That's actually NOT how balancing champions works in League at all. You don't compare the champion to the average and determine if it's balanced, as I have said SO MANY TIMES already. Different champions within the same role have different strengths and applications. This is the entire point. You don't compare Vayne to all the adcs and say "Oh, she's getting picked and banned a lot so she's fine, despite having a relatively mediocre winrate among adcs." She is underperforming against the beefy tanks she is meant to be good against, and those champions are overperforming against her. This is a sign there's a potential problem, and the problem seems to be that she is too easy to remove from a fight and has a heavy reliance on inconsistent crit mechanics. Additionally you just named a ton of BOT LANE champions. Bot lane right now is a bit skewed towards coin, which may potentially change over time. But overall you seem to be ignoring the correlation with popularity and bans too. It doesn't surprise me at all that cho has a low pick rate, considering he is the most heavily banned champion in League. As is Zac. It's pretty hard to pick those champions if they are banned all the time, but Mao, Zac, Gragas, Cho, Nasus, Renekton... these are all high pick/ban champions and good performers in the meta, and all of them are champions that Vayne is meant to be good against. And STOP COMPARING VAYNE TO EVERY CHAMPION. I'm just done, we're never going to agree because you are inherently wrong about your entire process. League is NOT balanced around comparing every champion to every other champion, period. And you keep doing that, so we're just never going to agree. I'm done with the circular arguing of telling you to stop comparing all the champions to each other despite that being a heavily misleading comparison and you ignoring it.
Knalxz (NA)
: As I said in my comment. I didn't really have enough time to go through it all because of work so I missed a few things. One of which was it being said that the double proc was a bug. Also, as someone who has been on the PBE for years, don't act like opinions matter there. After the whole Azir thing and Ali Q test it was made more then clear to everyone that the PBE is just the place Riot allows youtubers to get to content early for their videos. Despite just shy of everyone no the PBE screaming for Azir not to be released he's too buggy Riot did it anyone then blamed the PBE players like me. Then the Rioter who added a huge change to Ali's charge took it away because it was not meant to go public despite just shy of everyone loving the change. It made Ali feel fresh and powerful in a time where he was trash. If I recall correctly, they said they'll probably use the skill on a new hero. Now come to think of it, I think it has gone to Ornn.
The PBE is meant to test bugs, and the people that don't test bugs or give feedback that are on there do a disservice to everyone. I've been on PBE before too, and I've tried to see different things and test what I could, but the environment is a very poor one overall. I generally just hate how quick people are to complain that X champion is getting changes just because they already don't like that champion.
: ***
I'm seeing wildly varying statistics everywhere i look, but typically I am seeing 7-11% popularity. her banrate is apparently 2% one place, 27% another, yours is 8%. As far as I can tell though Draven and Caitlyn are FAR higher ban priorities for champions, even on your analytics website choice. And again, the meta is HEAVILY health stacking and she's not the most picked or the highest ban adc and her winrate hasn't changed at all. League isn't about having every champion sit at 50% winrate. The very statistics you are saying show she doesn't need a buff are the same ones I say show she does.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43kqwtWK,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-08-10T15:00:29.090+0000) > > Removing the crit from her q bonus damage and adding more damage to the w is NOT just a flat buff to her existing mechanics. no, but the addition of the heal clearly was.
Which wasn't the biggest complaint at all. It was barely a mention in most threads, almost all of them were about the q bug and % max health true damage. Across the board.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jesuszilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43kqwtWK,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-08-10T14:54:03.713+0000) > > Balance changes aren't addressed by people saying "I will perma-ban Vayne if you buff her." > > Balance changes are addressed by internal testing and collecting game statistics. And her pick/ban rate was certainly not 30%. She only had a 7% pick popularity on her own. She may have sat in the top third of champions overall, but barely. She was in the middle tier of her role though. > > And yes, you do actually have to test, research, and put forth a reasonable effort to say that changes don't need to happen. Because this statement you made is a pure lie: > > "People did not need to test the pbe changes to know that she does not need a buff." > > This is a lie, this is what the problem is. This is what is wrong with all these discussion. "I don't need to use logic, testing, numbers, or valid arguments to know the thing I don't want shouldn't happen." > > Just because you don't like/want it doesn't mean it's something that doesn't need to or shouldn't happen. im not even talking about buffs or nerfs in specific. though vayne does already fine in overall strength, and there is absolutely no reason to buff her over other champions who are doing much worse. the ONLY reason why vayne in specific is being buffed is to bring her into the spotlight for pro play, since this is a worlds patch. this targeted buffing to bring the same specific champion into a top teir position for pro play every season is already questionable. theyre not trying to create equal balance for all champions to be a good pick at worlds. theyre trying to elevate a couple of their favourites over everybody else. and vayne happens to be one of them. but the set of changes they have for her on the pbe already go into entirely the wrong direction. theyre just trying tune up her kit instead of changing it in a meaningful way. and there is a number of good reasons why buffing her with her current kit is a terrible idea.
I completely disagree entirely. League is an asymmetrically balanced game, meaning that no single champion is comparative to another on an even scale. There are different benefits, scaling, strengths, weaknesses, and counters. You say there's no reason to buff Vayne, because she's "fine in overall strength". I would say otherwise. And I'll give my reasoning on that. Vayne is clearly meant to be a tank killer, scaling champion, and skirmisher who has powerful benefits when beefy champions are the norm. This is the TANK META. Her kit should be letting her eat the current champions, it's the perfect area for her to shine. Yet champions like Miss Fortune and Trist are outperforming her and doing better in this meta. So the fact that in a tank heavy meta, a place where a Vayne should be dominating, she is only seeing moderate pick levels and even winrate that hasn't really changed shows that she isn't performing her job effectively and she's not that tank balancing lever that she should be. Ignoring other champions that more "deserve" buffs, Vayne probably could use some minor small tweaks. The other champions that need things more will likely need MORE changes, take longer, and sometimes Riot might now even know how to fix the champion. That doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the ones they can, especially if the changes needed are smaller. Tuning up a kit instead of changing it in a meaningful way is much better, because large changes and sweeping reworks are bad. Riot has always been on the path of minor small tweaks rather than large kit changes. Sion just got some small tweaks that increased his overall power, was that because of worlds? Hecarim is getting changes despite being a solo que champion with a weak position in the worlds meta. That must be for the crowds too huh? Here's the context on the Vayne changes straight from a Rioter to counter your feelings on this. "no, they're not completely gone but since we're cutting it close on our 'time budget' for this cycle they're considered something that we'd pick up when have time to finish them. i'm primarily focused on udyr right now, but made some time to kick off some vayne explorations and did some scripting groundwork to make it very easy for anyone to pick her up again as time allows (which could be me or another person on my team). so, we still have vayne changes in internal testing but they won't show up on pbe until we're sure we'll have time to wrap them up -- could be this patch or next, could be after worlds. for anyone curious about the changes, the direction that seems promising is removing the ability to crit tumble's bonus damage in exchange for a solid amount of power elsewhere (currently testing an increase to Q's damage ratio as well as the W changes that were on pbe already). absolutely everything is subject to change of course, but that's currently what we're looking into."
: you dont need to play these changes to understand why they went into the wrong direction. there is a thing called reason. at the end of the day they were just flat buffs to her already existing kit. they didnt change really anything about what makes vaynes kit toxic, and improves her gameplay. it just made her stronger against certain champions and slightly weaker against others.
Removing the crit from her q bonus damage and adding more damage to the w is NOT just a flat buff to her existing mechanics. It completely changes the way she itemizes and the effectiveness of her kit at each stage of the game. To think otherwise is to be ignorant, and willfully so if you keep wanting to use the argument "I don't need to do thing to know." Can you tell me what the impact difference in crit on q damage versus a slow 2% increase in w damage is? Can you quantify those changes and see the actual extent such a change makes? This is the exact problem I have and I'm going to stop responding to people that use the argument that they don't need to be informed to know that things are bad.
: ***
Balance changes aren't addressed by people saying "I will perma-ban Vayne if you buff her." Balance changes are addressed by internal testing and collecting game statistics. And her pick/ban rate was certainly not 30%. She only had a 7% pick popularity on her own. She may have sat in the top third of champions overall, but barely. She was in the middle tier of her role though. And yes, you do actually have to test, research, and put forth a reasonable effort to say that changes don't need to happen. Because this statement you made is a pure lie: "People did not need to test the pbe changes to know that she does not need a buff." This is a lie, this is what the problem is. This is what is wrong with all these discussion. "I don't need to use logic, testing, numbers, or valid arguments to know the thing I don't want shouldn't happen." Just because you don't like/want it doesn't mean it's something that doesn't need to or shouldn't happen.
Ralanr (NA)
: Why do we draw the line at only insults? Well I could say because insults add nothing to a discussion while even a purposefully ignorant opinion can bring up a point to consider, but that's unlikely to be the case. What's more likely is because someone had a clear set of rules on what exactly is fine, possibly copying them from somewhere else and have other humans try to enforce them. Rules that follow what they believe is an acceptable code of conduct. And these people are flawed like everyone else. They are not computers who will remove whatever doesn't meet "X" requirements in a discussion. From this conversation I'm getting that you believe ignorant opinions shouldn't be heard. Well to be frank, that's not any individuals decision to make. Those threads got so popular because people kept talking in them, some to argue against it and some to agree. There's a reason the saying, "If you want the right answer on the Internet, answer your question incorrectly" exists as people _love_ to argue against what they believe is wrong. I'm probably losing your argument here. I get the impression that you're too focused on what things should be, and I'm just trying to tell you what they are.
That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that people should be more responsible with their posts instead of being children. That we need to change this disturbing cultural shift that people feel their uninformed opinions are more valuable than bothering to actually look at an issue. Just because things are one way doesn't mean that's the right way. And you are correct, certain rules exist because other people thought them up. Rules are inherently meaningless, there is reason and logic behind why we have those rules, and it's always worth discussion if we can have new ones or change the way things work.
: another then. rengar 30% scaling ad with no loss for death. inc 1000AD rengar oneshots through banshees and zhonyas. my personal fav, the 4th ryze rework. or how about skarner spires, something everyone detested saying it removed his top lane potential and people would just fight outside the spires, now he has no passive at all. rammus W was gutted just recently even with the huge community backlash, no longer is he a counter AD champ, now hes 100% pog mobility "on your face lul"
Rengar has never been balanced, low hanging fruit there. The change in his necklace was a good one, but the end result was still same old Rengar. But the purpose of that change was to remove the on death punishment (they have been removing those over time, because they are bad in general) and give him an alternative. So the issue isn't the passive change, it's Rengar's entire kit. I love the current Ryze design, but I hate how he falls so short. His gameplay and style is very unique and rewarding, he just doesn't stack up. I think this is more an issue of numbers overall, but the update was very interesting and I remember there being a fair amount of positive feedback on that myself included. Are you just going to list failed reworks over and over again, or are you going to actually talk about changes that were made that clearly had negative testing? Because Ryze wasn't always bottom of the barrel after his rework and was a fairly popular direction for the champion despite where he ended up. And what do you mean Rammus W was gutted? He is STILL the anti ad champion. They even recently buffed his W slightly by reducing the self slow. I don't really understand how your complaints work? Are you just saying that you dislike every rework?
Ralanr (NA)
: Shouldn't doesn't stop people from doing things. I _shouldn't_ stay up till 2am every night but I do anyway. And deletions are more about violating the rules of the forums such as overly insulting someone. Due to the anonymity of the Internet, people can say things they couldn't say irl due to fear of backlash in person. This leaves people thinking they can get away with offensive posts. There are no rules that say "opinions based on only emotion will be deleted" so those posts are fine because despite disagreeing with them they are not breaking rules and thus allowed to be heard. You can just downvote them and/or disagree with them. This is the Internet. Not everyone has good intentions.
There is no enforcement of that, but it goes back to the root of your statement, that everyone has the right to express themselves even if they are wrong in doing so. And I disagree and there is CLEAR evidence that you shouldn't express some things, because they aren't ok to do. Such as expressing the opinion that someone else is an idiot. It's not ok to say that on the forums and will get your posts deleted, that's clearly an opinion that's not acceptable to be expressed. So why draw the line only at insults, why even prevent insults from being expressed in the first place? It's because insulting people isn't valuable to the conversation and isn't acceptable, because it's wrong on a moral/ethical/etc standpoint. Likewise, intentionally refusing to inform yourself, or intentionally making opinionated statements despite knowing that those statements are not rooted in any kind of real information is additionally something that is wrong on those standpoints. I'd argue that expressing uninformed or ignorant opinions based entirely on feelings isn't valuable to the discussion and is wrong as well. And that's the point.
: You make a good point about waiting for testing on many things. HOWEVER There's a couple of points you made that I'd like to push back on. First, the PBE is mainly for bug testing. I know that Riot does look at data from it, but *generally* the wisdom seems to be that the sample size is too small to make calls about balance. Second, it's really valuable to know how players *feel* about these changes, even if they are good for Gameplay and Balance. Consider the Fiora rework; Riot has pretty much admitted that they handled that rework badly, and a big part of that was ignoring community feedback on a number of issues. Like Vayne, there was community outcry about a heal on her ult; unlike Vayne, they elected to keep it. Now, Fiora is a frustrating champ with a thematic that legit feels less cohesive than the original Fiora for most players, and iirc, a couple of Rioters have more or less admitted that. It's not ever disturbing for Riot to listen to community feedback. It would be disturbing if they always did what "the community" wanted, but they don't. They often ignore people for great wins, like the recent Taric changes. I was hard pressed to find someone that agreed with me about those being really good, but I love the way it turned out and I think Taric is a healthier champ because of it. It's fine for many of use to disagree about this, but Riot has to go one way or other at some point. It shouldn't always be "full steam ahead." If they still want changes on Vayne, they will find others that resonate more with players. Please remember that this isn't the only place they get feedback, either. There's the assumption that if Riot changed her, it MUST BE because of NA Boards. They take polls and data from all around the world on these kinds of decisions, so I'm under no delusion that we were the sole cause of the revert. If anything, we were an anecdote that was something like "yeah, and on top of all that other polling evidence, the NA Boards kind of hate the changes." Third, it could be that those changes come back with a few tweaks; that often happens. It's not like we know for sure that those changes are totally scrapped. I think it's premature to call it a disturbing trend when we can't see the end result.
The disturbing trend is the posts on the forums, not the result of the changes. The trend is with the people, not Riot. I have no doubt in my mind that Riot made a decision on their own to remove the changes (likely because of the q bug). But that's just another thing, the PBE is for testing bugs and when there was a bug with the changes to Vayne (double q proc for w) the community went ballistic over it. It wasn't that people didn't like the idea of the heal on ultimate, it was almost ENTIRELY people complaining about Vayne's w damage. I saw maybe a handful of people worried about the healing and everyone else was whining about how strong Vayne would be or how bad it is to buff Vayne's w by 2% over 4 ranks. Again, my problem is with people that blindly spam hate forums over a champion simply because they don't like that champion rather than offering good reasoning on the issues. This is 100% about community mindset and NOT about Riot's decision making.
: who here wanted veigar DFG compensation to go through on an already weak niche pick champion? the 2% of the population who felt cheated they ran into a veigar main and refused to build banshees or ga or merc treds as part of their build. .5% of players (veigar mains) thought he was fair, high risk high reward, often times died and failed trying. but apparently the hard to use stun ruined games. who here was indifferent... 95%+ of the players. who here had motive to remove veigar from the support role in the LCS because it hard shut down their shiny new kalista? RIOT. but dont worry guys, veigar needed the compensation 6mo after the DFG because his win rate....... actually increased by 1%.........
That's a lot of absurd assumptions and statements that are hard to even discuss. There's been a lot of ups and downs of Veigar since the DFG removal. And the rework. He's seen varying levels of play and I have no clue how you think that Veigar support against Kalista is somehow the motivation for changes. This is jumbled, muddled, and a little conspiracy with no effort on your part to really explain it. I'm sorry, but you have to do better if you want to get a point across, if there even is one.
Ralanr (NA)
: Whether or not an opinion actually has value doesn't mean a person should not express their opinion. People have the right to be heard. People mistake that right as giving them no consequence for what they say. Basically you can tell the president to fuck off and you won't be put in jail (people will just treat you a bit differently because of their opinions on you). I hate Irelia and I voice it whenever she's buffed or meta. I have a right to speak it, but I can't force people to pay attention. That's why trolls seek to trigger people because that's how they get attention. While opinions should be well formed, you cannot just say that you can't express an opinion because it's ethos only.
I can and I will say that you shouldn't jump to conclusions and make blind statements of opinion on something if you're not informed and know better. Because if you know better and still do it, you're basically going against yourself on this. If you don't know any better, than you should endeavor to change that about yourself. And no, people don't always have the right to be heard. Hence why comments on the forums get deleted and people get bans on their League accounts for some of the things they say.
: I don't need to test something like that to know that it's not healthy for the game. Sure I need to test them buffing the dmg on a Q or reworking an ability like they did with Alistar E but literally buffing a champion this much is simply retarded.
How much? Quantify the buffs that were made. Compare those with the nerfs. Describe the bugs with the implementation. Most people didn't even realize that the double proc q was a bug and not intended, and some still don't despite being told otherwise.
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