: This ability should never have been given to fucking assassins in the first place. It flat out removes a part of what little counterplay they have just buy having this ability.
^^^ x9000 I dont get why the fuck Assassins get utility added to their build path FOR FREE. The real kicker is that its all really high value utility like Banshees Veil passive or Blackout. I dont understand the rationale of giving assassins a full menu of different Black Cleaver-calibre items. Its kinda horseshit considering itemization that other classes are dealing with. Im a support main, and I love Senna, but the freaking Utility from that vision clearing item is absolutely absurd. When paired with a sweeper, its literally more vision clearing power than I would ever need. That lethality item completely trivializes the vision game - what used to be a strategic choice is now a completely automated auto pilot setting. It completely dumbs down playing for vision control. Clearing wards used to be a point of skill expression, but this item basically just scripts ward killing. Terrible addition to the game.
: This Game has way to much Damage
One thing that I really hate is that, from the opponent's point of view, there's almost literally no strategic nuance between the assassins, when defending against them. Before it used to make sense that you would want to know about the assassins ans when their burst windows were. Like I remember laning against Zed when i used to Mid, and paying really close attention to his cooldowns, making sure I was keeping myself protected. Nowadays it literally doesnt fucking matter what state his cooldowns are in, because Im just dead in a single rotation. So why do I even need to bother keeping up with assassin kits and changes? Because if an assassin gets into range and decides they want to kill me, then Im just fucking dead, and then its in the hands of my teammates. There used to be a legitimate art in gaining kill threat on your opponent without them realizing it, but that part of the game is one of the many forgotten ghosts of LoL's past fun.
: I like a lot of what you wrote, but honestly you missed my main desire for supports. They desperately need skill expression. I'm talking skillshots. I'm talking harder timing. I'm talking weird abilities that are hard to pull off correctly. It seems you don't think Taric is a real enchanter, but he has good enchanter abilities that demonstrate what I'm trying to say. Look at Taric R. It's not a skillshot, but the timing is *uber* important in ways that most people don't appreciate. It's ridiculously easy to use too early and screw your entire team over. Most people notice when you use it too late. Few people understand how bad it is to use it too early. This is *good* nuance. It adds depth. Look at Taric Q. It *is* an instant heal... but using it well is difficult because of the stacking mechanic. Use it too infrequently and your teammates might die too fast. Use it too much and you heal so much less for the mana you spend. It's interesting. It's hard. And it requires play from the Taric player *that doesn't have to infuriate the enemy.* Like, ok, I do infuriate the enemy when I keep a carry alive against 2 divers at once, but at least people think "Damn, that Taric player is fire." Not, "what a shit champ that's so unfair." The difference is the complexity. This is what Janna, Soraka, Sona, and Lulu need. We still don't have a skillshot heal in this game (no, don't count Senna ult). All three of these champs have a point and click ability as their main healing or shielding ability (2 for Lulu if you count ult). They are instant. They have normal, linear cooldowns. There is nothing interesting about them. They need to be Taric-ified. Yes, they could all have nuances that allowed you to pick one over the other, etc. Differentiation would help. But I see the bigger issue as *depth.* Longer casting times. More skillshots or weird skill mechanics. There is *so much space* in this game for creativity with shields and heals. I want to see some designers tackle that. Don't just sell the theme with skill names and types. Make the *skills themselves* tell a story and challenge the player to master the champion.
Agree so much. The Taric rework was fucking brilliant. I want to see the same treatment done for the Enchanters so badly.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UytJYVgc,comment-id=001300000001,timestamp=2020-01-06T01:10:11.132+0000) > > For skill tests around healing, I think that Riot has been pretty creative around some of the newer champs with heals. > > {{champion:497}} - Has to land a skillshot, then move onto the ally he wants to heal (Something like this would be more challenging with a champion that didn't have a "dash to ally" ability) > > {{champion:44}} - Cant spam heals unless hes in melee range and is able to get auto attacks between cast. His heals are also crazy expensive, and he has to be aware of who he's actually got tethered. > > {{champion:235}} - Has to line up her skillshot in order to effect multiple targets. I'm on the fence about the actual difficulty in doing this considering how wide her shot actually is, but I like the mechanics of the skill test. > > The remaining shielder / healers are all just point and click (or in the case of Sona, a simple range check) > > {{champion:16}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:43}} > > A point-and-click is the easiest skill test for an ability, but you don't necessarily have change an ability into a skill shot to make it harder to pull off. You can add other kinds of conditions on it, some that make the skill test harder, and others to narrow its applications: > > - Shield lands on the target after a 1.5 sec delay, making it it's less usable vs burst damage, unless the player can predict the enemy's actions > - Heal / Shield that scales based off the distance to your target (forcing you to decide between a risky stronger heal, or a weaker longer ranged one) > - Heal / Shield that gains power based on how much melee damage you have recently dealt (Good healer to have vs. short ranged comps, but not a champ that works vs poke) > - Heal / Shield that lands if you can maintain a fixed-distance tether with your ally (Having it break from both being too close and being too far would be a good test) > - Heal / Shield that only delivers it's full effect if the target is dealt a certain amount of damage within a small window (similar to Zilean R) > - Heal / Shield that effects allies your character is facing away from w/ a slower cast time to make it harder to land (useful for a front line paladin type healer) > - Something crazy like Gangplank's barrels that you have to shoot after a certain timer, but enemies can also shoot it first and destroy it > > Oh and I think a nearsight AoE would be best. But yea I think you are right. Point and click Nearsight would't hurt melee champs too much, but it would be crazy op in the 2v2 lane I do like some of these. I think the delayed shield could be good, great for a set up before engaging. I like the distance thing, have definitely had points where my heal as Sona didn't get there fast enough or wasn't worth me being as far away as i was. As for the trigger one, what are you thinking here? Some like, gray health for X, if health remains after Y seconds they heal for Z? I HATE: Heal / Shield that gains power based on how much melee damage you have recently dealt (Good healer to have vs. short ranged comps, but not a champ that works vs poke) Heal / Shield that lands if you can maintain a fixed-distance tether with your ally (Having it break from both being too close and being too far would be a good test). The first one requires to much set up, you have to get into melee range then hit them (probably a couple times) before it's worth healing (which means you have to point and click away from your opponent, or your ally needs to be melee+ range). The second one, simple design issue. You should never have to play around (against) your allies. Too far might be fine, much like {{champion:44}} has a range on his link. As for the last one, we already basically have that {{champion:432}} 's heal can be cancelled by stepping on it.
Yea the melee damage based utility was for this champ idea I was going to submit. Your criticism is totally fair. A heal/shield fueled by melee damage would be pretty horrendous for an Enchanter. That initial idea was a holdover from a champ design idea I was going to post on the boards. I figured if they made an assassin support and a marksman support, it would make sense to throw a Bruiser Support into the mix. The idea was a Vanguard-ish melee fighter like Braum or Taric or Shen, but he's a blood priest from Qiyana's land who fuels his allies by gaining blessings from getting blood all over the battlefield. He basic schtick would be that be would be a really nasty melee champ that buffed the hell out of the marksman the longer he stays in combat. A hard counter to divers and engage mostly, and pretty garbage vs ranged supports like Zyra or Brand. But yea that's totally off the original topic. You're right. A fixed distance tether is way too unreliable to make into a core ability. I mean considering how hard it is to get someone to click your lantern... yea the tether idea feels like a bit much. That's a good point about Bard's healing shrines. That one I was kind of thinking it could be something similar to Gangplank where the Enchanter would drop a node on the ground (which is initially invulnerable for a brief window, after of which, it can be killed by enemy auto attacks). Once the node is in play, the Enchanter could cast one of their spells on the node(s) and deliver a powerful effect on it, depending on which spell the enchanter casts on the node. The Enchanter could explode the node into a swirling nearsight effect, or release a shield effect in that area, or explode it with a knockback effect (like a mini gragas). If the enchanter has to time their spells to land on a vulnerable node before an enemy pops it, that might be a fun skill test. And then the Enchanter could have pretty basic utility spells in their kit, so they would be pretty straightforward to play, like a Nami, until they start getting the hang of the node mini game. And then that's when they would start reaching for their mastery ceiling.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UytJYVgc,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2020-01-05T23:26:39.757+0000) > > Why can't an enchanter have harder skill tests around their healing and shielding? > I'm curious what you want here. Because let's be honest if you could miss your heals/shields then they would need to be INSANELY strong if you hit them. I can think of some ways there it works, but it's kind of like a reverse grievous wounds area. Enemy targets within the area get a "debuff" that heals allies if they hit them. I worry about the nearsighted one, like is it a point and click effect? or something more like {{champion:104}} 's smokescreen? As for some of the other ideas, i LOVE THEM. I think the terrain thing could be interesting. Maybe make it kind of like a combo {{champion:34}} wall (opponents can't pass through it), {{champion:157}} windwall (allies can pass through it), and {{champion:427}} brush (allies are obscured from vision while behind it)
For skill tests around healing, I think that Riot has been pretty creative around some of the newer champs with heals. {{champion:497}} - Has to land a skillshot, then move onto the ally he wants to heal (Something like this would be more challenging with a champion that didn't have a "dash to ally" ability) {{champion:44}} - Cant spam heals unless hes in melee range and is able to get auto attacks between cast. His heals are also crazy expensive, and he has to be aware of who he's actually got tethered. {{champion:235}} - Has to line up her skillshot in order to effect multiple targets. I'm on the fence about the actual difficulty in doing this considering how wide her shot actually is, but I like the mechanics of the skill test. The remaining shielder / healers are all just point and click (or in the case of Sona, a simple range check) {{champion:16}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:43}} A point-and-click is the easiest skill test for an ability, but you don't necessarily have change an ability into a skill shot to make it harder to pull off. You can add other kinds of conditions on it, some that make the skill test harder, and others to narrow its applications: - Shield lands on the target after a 1.5 sec delay, making it it's less usable vs burst damage, unless the player can predict the enemy's actions - Heal / Shield that scales based off the distance to your target (forcing you to decide between a risky stronger heal, or a weaker longer ranged one) - Heal / Shield that gains power based on how much melee damage you have recently dealt (Good healer to have vs. short ranged comps, but not a champ that works vs poke) - Heal / Shield that lands if you can maintain a fixed-distance tether with your ally (Having it break from both being too close and being too far would be a good test) - Heal / Shield that only delivers it's full effect if the target is dealt a certain amount of damage within a small window (similar to Zilean R) - Heal / Shield that effects allies your character is facing away from w/ a slower cast time to make it harder to land (useful for a front line paladin type healer) - Something crazy like Gangplank's barrels that you have to shoot after a certain timer, but enemies can also shoot it first and destroy it Oh and I think a nearsight AoE would be best. But yea I think you are right. Point and click Nearsight would't hurt melee champs too much, but it would be crazy op in the 2v2 lane
: I seriously think we need to have a discussion about enchanters in this game moving forward
I'd buy you a beer if I could. I'm glad I'm not insane for thinking the same as you. If Riot takes anything away from your post, please let them understand that **there are more creative ways to protect a team than just healing and shielding**. Why cant an enchanter afflict someone with Nearsight? Why cant an Enchanter cleanse CC? Why cant an enchanter create a grounding area? Why cant an enchanter create terrain to protect the backline? Why can't an enchanter have harder skill tests around their healing and shielding? There are so many more fun ways you could design this role, rather than just making them heal and shield bots.
Rioter Comments
Eedat (NA)
: How are you letting yourself get ganked repeatedly when you have a lane advantage and priority? Use your wards lol. Failed ganks are already extraordinarily punishing because of how easily you fall behind
How are you responding to a post you haven't read and comprehended? Re-read the scenario I'm illustrating for you. I'm talking about a scenario where a jungler literally attempts to gank the same lane 4 or 5 times before he finally succeeds - and that one successful gank erases all of his failures for the previous 7 minutes, because of all the rewards that come from it - double kill, turret plates, dragon
Critty92 (EUNE)
: I miss Nexus Blitz. Don't you?
Nexus Blitz was literally the only selling point that I could bring to my friends who stopped playing. But hey, what kind of business would try to retain customers?
Rioter Comments
VonCesaw (NA)
: Design philosophy
I think that Riot has just given up on that and just started releasing champs that have "solved" kits. I think the best term for them is "Unilateral Power Fantasy" where only one side of the fight gets to experience their power fantasy - due to the fact that they are so powerful that their only way to lose is if they screw up, regardless of how well their opponent might be playing. The person playing a champion like Akali, Irelia, or Yasuo is the only one having any fun in thier fights - the rest of us just have to deal w thier bullshit until they make a major mistake.
: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/56yth3iG-just-an-fyi-why-i-am-out-riot https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1EyJlU7t-guess-i-have-to-quit https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BgfBlb33-and-thats-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin I'll give you this. At least you're consistent. For three years, the same "I quit" bullshit topics. Word to the wise, people might take your points more seriously if you... A: Didn't cry wolf every couple months and actually left the game B: Didn't feel the need to threaten/act like you're going to quit to get your point across To be frank, no one cares if you quit or stop playing the game. Millions of people love the game the way it is and play it everyday. It's not perfect but it never was or will be. There will always be things that are not balanced or irk some people about the current style. There's plenty of other games beside this one and if you want to stop playing this one altogether there is nothing wrong with that. The world will keep going. This game will keep going. But cut the melodramatic BS and just find something better to do with your time.
No game is perfect. The OP isnt expecting that from league. Hes expecting that the game doesn't change in ways that make it less fun. Yea millions of players play LoL, just like millions of players play WoW, and CoD, etc. But that doesnt change the fact that the games been getting worse over time. I dont know what growth league has had overall, but I do know that I had 6 RL friends that I played LoL with for 5 or 6 years, and now they are gone with no interest at all in returning. I cant say for sure if LoL is gaining new players at the same rate that its been losing them, but I can say for sure that I personally dont try to get others to play it, because it just isnt fun. If the OP wants to give feedback on how terrible he thinks the game is, thats his right. And if the devs want to continue ignoring feedback like his, thats their right too. Honestly, its all moot, because the designers obv dont give a shit about the current game state - probably because the remianing MOBA market is complete dog shit, and Riot doesnt need to worry about players jumping ship for something newer and shinier.
: Would like Support Advice from Plat/Diamond Supports (Gold Player)
A good general checklist to follow when roaming: - You and the ADC just backed - You just got mobis / pen boots - You have Flash and Ignite - You have a Sweeper or Pink - Target opponent doesnt have Flash - Target opponent isn't mobile - You or ally have CC If most of these are true, its a golden opportunity to roam. You dont have to have all these boxes checked off, but the more of them that are checked, the higher the % of success your play will have.
Morglics (EUNE)
: probably will be a fake nerf , where she get compensation for the nerfs and makes her even stronger than before :P riot does this for every fav champ of their yasuo lee ...
The concept of "compensation buffs" is goofy af. You are supposed to nerf champs that are too strong. And if the nerf was too harsh, you can adjust it later. There doesnt need to be any compensation bullshit included to muck up the results of your change. Riot sure does love to craft overengineered solutions.
: Why do we even have champion classes?
I think the problem is that the design mentality for LoL has changed at Riot, and they haven't clearly communicated to us what that change in philosophy is exactly. Do they think its great that you die before the CC on you would have expired? Do they think that mobility doesnt cost anything in a champion's power budget? Do they think that tanks should never be played? No one at Riot has been answering these questions. They spend their commumity time sitting in the sanitized safety of their overly-moderated subreddit. TLDR: Whoever is directing the design values for LoL either doesn't know what those values are anymore, doesnt feel the need to communicate them to the players, or both. When you look at how Riot used to communicate and interact w the commumity several years ago vs today, its night and day. We used to see regular blogs on the state of champion balance and design. We used to have a clear understanding of what Riot's goals were for certain champions and classes. Then Yasuo happened. Then Azir happened. Then runes reforged. Then Irelia rework. Then Pyke. Then Akali rework. And it goes on and on from there until we reach Senna. We started seeing kits that solved their own class problems, and that should have been the hint that there was a changing of the guard in LoL's core design leads. Most of the newer champs have just completely thrown out all of the previously aforementioned design principles, without any explanations or arguments made. Unless you count that one time a Rioter tweeted that Rengar one shotting people was actually good for the game. Not really a great platform for having deep discussions about design philosophy. Blizzard made a similar mistake in ignoring player feedback with their latest expansion, Battle for Azeroth. The next expansion is attempting to correct the mistakes that came from designing in a feedback-free bubble. Here's hoping that Riot learns to course correct like Blizzard has.
: Senna NEEDS to be given a HARSH choice. DAMAGE or UTILITY.
Senna instantly became my favorite champ. I've been wanting a modern healing support for ages now, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: SENNAS HEALING SHOULD NOT SCALE BETTER ON AD THAN IT SCALES WITH AP The fact that her heal has more generous scaling from AD than AP is bonkers. Like shes already gaining a lot of free utility of of lethality items as it is with free ward clearing, a damage bonus every time she comes out of stealth, and a spell shield - she doesn't need any extra healing on top of that. And in response to the OP's title, I dont think its a harsh choice to force a champion to choose between damage or utility - that's actually called a normal choice in class-based games. It's just that the last couple of years have been polluted with so many overloaded kits, its easy to forget that most champions in this game used to have areas of specialty, instead of just being strong in every possible combat scenario.
: Truer words have not been spoken on here in a while. The support role has always been an after thought for the balance team. The whole removal of Sightstone is proof enough of that. Solo laners in pro play were abusing it, therefore we don't get to have it anymore. They removed Sightstone and gave us the quest system, but it created a mage problem we've been suffering through for so long. Mages could mindlessly spam spells bot and thanks to damage creep it progressively got worse. Before they couldn't always do that because first back for the majority of supports was a Sightstone which offered +150 health. Mage supports either had to make a play before the first back, or make a risky choice between buying more damage or having a safe laning phase. After the quest system they didn't have to make a choice because we were all at risk bot lane due to lack of vision and they could immediately start building damage while on a path to wards. The enemy support wouldn't have extra health to counter them either. This new system that nukes support income seems designed specifically to target mage supremacy that was developing bot. I mean, we even had double mages towards the end of season 9. Even the mage players were starting to admit it was getting a little ridiculous. Now we're all kneecapped unless we have one of Riot's nifty new champion kits. That's not how the problem should be solved. I personally don't know how much more I can take as support. It wasn't fun dealing with mages and the constant ganks. I don't even want to think about how we had to ban Pyke for the whole season, and the only time we had to stop was because Yuumi was released and literally had no weakness. Now we have Senna who is putting out as much damage as an ADC while healing like she's an enchanter. The solution is simple, nerf her damage, but then she's going to have the same problem the rest of the supports have besides Pyke. I'm pretty sure they would have completely ignored Yuumi if she wasn't a must-ban during pro-play earlier this year and just trash talked ad nauseam by high elo streamers. They're trying to look the other way with Senna hoping she'll just be something we "put up" with Pyke. We're in this awkward spot where Riot clearly is creating a new class of champions where the old rules don't apply. If they want to go down a new road, then why not try support-only items? We can only go up from where we are right now and I want to avoid having to switch between banning Pyke and Senna with my ADC only to get hit with a Nautilus hook that completely missed us. {{sticker:sg-lulu}} Please don't give us that season 10 Riot. I know that people are like, "but who would get to decide who is a support?" Personally, after season 9, I'm willing to sacrifice some snowflakes to avoid another whole year of the BS we had to put up with in bot lane. The majority of those that land in the grey area directly contribute to the problem anyways.
Rioter Comments
: I would hate to be limited to just six items because I Q'd up Support. I'd rather see riot go to 4v4 before they limit my build. Most of the fun are finding niche builds that work for how I like to play. Or do you mean that supports are able to build whatever they want, but only supports can buy the '6' items you allude to?
Yea thats exactly what I was hoping for. The shop stays the same, but then there is an extra group of items that only support champs can buy, in addition to everything else in the shop
Rioter Comments
: Steal caddies. Late game caddies are worth 90g. Currently with the supp item you get 180g every 10 mins. With just 2 caddy steals you can double your gold income (of the next 10 mins) in 1 minute. If you take every caddy per wave you have increased your gold income by 10x. Or another way to look at it is post 25 mins, Laners get 10x the supports "income" from caddies alone, 20x from full waves.
What the fuck is a caddie? What the hell are you talking about?
datfatguy (OCE)
: So far the gameplay in preseason 10 has been poor
If feels like Riot has either half the people working on the balance teams than they used to, or the veterans on balance have all moved on to other projects. I've never seen the game be left in such a trash state for this long. It's past the point of absurdity and its just plain sad now.
klin537 (NA)
: The point of the update was to make it _more_ one sided. If a team is outright better then they deserve to win quickly, without wasting 20 extra minutes. So riot gives them OP dragons to extend their lead. I actually have used the side cubby to my advantage. If you're being chased and you need to stall an extra second for your team to help, you can play chicken around the cubby to stall.
If the winning team is supposed to win quickly, then why even have Baron Nashor spawn after 20 minutes? Why even have the Elder dragon spawn after that? Why give champs 6 item slots? Why let champs level to 18? There was a ton of late game strategy and macro play that used to actually be an important skill to maintain. Now its all just fucking camp a bush and blast someone from fog of war. There's no nuance to the game flow anymore, and none of the game's designs support that kind of game tempo. You have this gigantic map to explore with towers and corners everywhere, yet for some reason, when the enemy team takes an early game lead, you literally dont get to play around any of that shit anymore. You just sit in your base, waiting for the eventual tornado to arrive and rip your roof off before throwing a semi truck on top of you. ITS BORING
: Proplay. It was reducing a lot of potential there, because, unsurprisingly, a map that's lit up like a Christmas tree combined with people who actually know how to use vision make for a very dull game. It has fairly low impact on lower tiers because lower tier is bad at using vision.
There was actually a lot of creativity that pro junglers brought into the game. Champs that could get over terrain brought different warding considerations. It was really cool to see some pro junglers pull off some really sneaky ganks. And honestly, the reduction of vision hasn't changed that much in terms of predictable plays. I saw tons of pros just abandoning their towers right before the obvious 4 man dive got there.
Rioter Comments
Naalith (NA)
: > His pull, which is as good as every other pull if not better Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. Out of the 4 hook supports Pyke has by far the worst hook. Blitzcrank or Nautilus undoubtedly has the best pull in the entire game with Thresh somewhere between those two and Pyke. Pyke has the most telegraphed and least distance pulled hook in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Naalith,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UelwnXtH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-14T04:57:24.727+0000) > > Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. Out of the 4 hook supports Pyke has by far the worst hook. Blitzcrank or Nautilus undoubtedly has the best pull in the entire game with Thresh somewhere between those two and Pyke. Pyke has the most telegraphed and least distance pulled hook in the game. Blitz doesnt have stealth or a dash or an AoE stun Naut cant hook through terrain. Nauts hook takes him into a more forward, and dangerous position. Thresh's hooks travel speed is slower than Pyke's. Thresh hook cant pull champs over terrain like Pyke's can. Nautilus, Thresh, and Blitz are weaker to poke than Pyke is, thanks to his free grey health. All the hooks in this game have different qualities. That doesnt mean that Pyke has the "worst" hook. The only champ that you could argue has the best hook, is Blitzcrank, which is his main champ identity.
: Doesnt matter if its overused if its good.
Rokuroú (EUW)
: Senna is a bit nuts
Not only is her win rate below 48%, Senna is literally hard countered by all the meta Supports. If a bot lane isnt able to dumpster Senna with Leona, Nautilus, Blitzcrank, or Pyke, I dunno what to tell you.
: {{champion:91}} and {{champion:238}} are the only "dark stabby man" assassins in the game...
The "dark stabby man" is an overused trope that's found in almost every corner of media, from video games to movies to comics to tabletop games And also {{champion:141}}
Rioter Comments
: As a support main, I really miss being able to have the feeling that I am doing something to "protect" the people on my team. I never really feel that I was able to do anything significant when I play Janna or Nami because dmg is so high and they have been nerfed so much that I'm really only useful for my cc abilities. I don't want to do damage when I play support, I want to support my team. When I want to do damage, I go mid and hope I don't get shit on by an assassin.
I feel the same way, but I also feel like Senna is a step in the right direction. Even though she does damage, her healing and CC and group stealth are also really important skill tests. Your positioning is important, when you need to heal multiple people at the same time. Your timing on your group stealth is critically important. (A senna once saved me from Irelia's point click dash) Your skill shot aim and timing is also really important, as its your main peel tool that relies exclusively on you (as her mist relies on your ally positioning and not auto attacking) I believe shes a good champ for enchanter players, a category I count myself in.
: > [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8pRrWpWE,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-11-12T02:17:25.003+0000) > > alistar's actually the opposite. He "can" lock down a target, but his primary function is defense with his headbutt to disengage > > compare him to aggressive tanks like leona and blitz and he's sub-par in that regard I really want to see these alistar's that play defensive since I have never seen one who plays him that way in my entire time playing league and I have been playing since season 2. I think you are mistaking him for braum.
Defensive play is literally the primary reason I pick Alistar, and I've been playing support since S3.
: Yeah, you should try playing top lane for a change and then tell me whether you appreciate how being the bot lane actually gets shit done.
I dont hate myself enough to venture into hell
Subdue (NA)
: The entire premise of this post is that the OP wants to play 2v2 in bot lane for 20 minutes. We saw over and over again in Worlds the dominant bot lane team taking control of river, setting deep wards in the enemy jungle, and even roaming to mid for ganks between waves. That's way more agency than what we saw even 4 or 5 years ago. This is not a 1v1 game. It's not a 2v2 game in bot lane either. Both teams have their win conditions, if the enemy team's win condition happens to be getting their ADC fed or shutting yours down, then they should be rewarded for expending the resources to do so, if they do so successfully. And by the way, counterjungling aside, if even 1 minute passes by where the jungler is sitting in a bush while his small camps (not even including the buffs) sit there waiting, it is the equivalent of losing TWO waves worth of gold from minions. If the enemy jungler takes those camps, it's even worse. And if they take the camps and leave 1 so the timer doesn't reset, it is a HUGE setback.
Thats literally not what im saying at all. I'm saying that there's virtually no opportunity cost for the jungler just sitting on the bot lane indefinitely. The camping jungler doesnt risk falling behind in gold or XP. I've had situations where a jungler sits on my lane for almost 2 or 3 minutes straight, and they aren't punished by falling behind in levels. There should be a cost to failing your ganks so many times, that you have to sit on the lane for upwards of 2 minutes, just to make a positive gain out of sitting on one side of the map for so long. I used to play jg awhile back, and I can appreciate a clever gank route, but this is just a lazy system now. The most garbage jg can botch their gank two times in 60 seconds, go kill a scuttle crab, then come back and finally seal the deal. If it takes you 3 attempts in a 2 minute spam to finally find a successful gank, you are a bad jg and you shouldn't be getting a lead over your opposing jg from doing that.
: And that's why forcing so many snowballing mechanics ruins games, there's no even playing field to feel the challenge.
> [{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OQ0PNIzT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-10T17:19:30.644+0000) > > And that's why forcing so many snowballing mechanics ruins games, there's no even playing field to feel the challenge. ^^^ This so much. I can't even remember how it feels to walk away from a game feeling like I contributed smart plays to help my team win. Every game literally feels like: - Team X got more gold - Team X takes everything on the map - Team X wins game Games feel like a auto pilot checklist that you can't do anything about So fucking boring
Rioter Comments
: Is Nexus Blitz ever coming back?
Nexus Blitz is literally the only game mode I've seen that made me want to bring a new person into league, or try and make the case for my friends to come back and give LoL another shot.
Talisid (NA)
: I don't really feel like she's designed to be an enchanter per-say. More like a high damage poke-support that happens to have some utility like {{champion:99}}
Thats definitely what it feels like so far. But Lux's shield is actually pretty strong comparatively, because is scales up with her main stat. Senna's AP scaling on her heal is so weak, I'm honestly wondering why its even there, especially considering she's going to just build AD / Lethality every game, so she's not going to have any AP organically most games.
: shes an adc support. deal with it.
Appreciate your intelligently constructed response. Thank you for adding interesting commentary to this discussion.
Rioter Comments
: Would melee mages benefit from AP versions of the AD items?
I think its kinda BS that Bruisers get the perfect item for their class, while most other classes dont have an equivalent. What we need, is for Riot to add a couple of class-specific items to the shop. It would be easy to create AP items for Battle Mages and Control Mages, without worrying about it getting abused by AP Assassins. The item system needs a complete overhaul honestly. I would rather they just add more build path options, than messing around with the busted ass runes reforged.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=53rrMoWX,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-11-02T03:44:41.497+0000) > > Kits aren't specifically tied to how a champion looks > > This is a game with a Ninja that is a tank > {{champion:98}} > > A guy in plate armor that is a burst assassin > {{champion:59}} > > A lady in plate armor that is squish af > {{champion:10}} > > A pirate that doesnt want to get into melee with you > {{champion:41}} > > A gerbil ninja that wants to charge at you face-first > {{champion:85}} > > And a crying midget that can eat damage for days > {{champion:32}} Shen is fairly bulky with a large model, and fairly slow. He is also still squishy for a tank, and relies on his abilities to negate damage. Jarvan isnt a burst assassin, hes more of a fighter.... tank.... thing.... He really came out before focused on more defined roles. Hes mostly just an initiator who leads his team into battle. GP is still competent at melee combat. Pirates arent exactly known for pure melee prowess. Kayles model is also fairly small, and plate armor as is depicted on her isnt translated as being beefy. Yeah, and he is affectionately referred to as pikachu, who does the same thing. Again, amumu is a more squishy tank, as most of his tank stats comes strictly from items. Hes also an original champion, so his art design isnt as coherent as newer ones.
The argument you proposed was that Senna's build path was related to her aesthetic appearance, which doesn't hold water given that league has a hobbit mummy that can tank entire teams, warriors in plate armor that are squishy, ninjas who are tanks, and other ninjas that literally want to jump in the middle of as many opponents as possible. That's about the only response I can actually deliver after reading your argument about GP being competent at melee combat, and that pirates weren't characteristically melee fighters... when everyone knows that pirates have historically carry melee weapons and short-ranged black powder weapons. gl on your next posts man
Pika Fox (NA)
: Primary reason is probably just because she is a lanky, squishy looking champion with a big gun, which people look at and go "alright, doesnt look big and beefy so probably not a tank, and she is shooting me with autos a lot so probably AD". It makes more visual sense for her build path to be more in line with damage than for it to be more in line with "Suddenly, Redemption!"
Kits aren't specifically tied to how a champion looks This is a game with a Ninja that is a tank {{champion:98}} A guy in plate armor that is a burst assassin {{champion:59}} A lady in plate armor that is squish af {{champion:10}} A pirate that doesnt want to get into melee with you {{champion:41}} A gerbil ninja that wants to charge at you face-first {{champion:85}} And a crying midget that can eat damage for days {{champion:32}}
Octagoon (NA)
: Senna should have a Support Build-Path
I'm honestly not sure why you would bother putting a shield and heal in her kit without giving her a decent enchanter build path. I've been dying to see them make a mechanically demanding shield support and I was hoping Senna would finally be that champion.
: For things like this, Riot totally ignore the boards
I know right? Reddit is so much more safe and sanitized
: It's how Riot works these days. Pushes a stupid buff that breaks the champion and then instead of reverting the buff they nerf other things that aren't the problem. It's actually insane.
The thing that also get me, is that they leave it in a shit state for months at a time. They have made some supremely stupid buffs, they ignore community complaints for months, then finally and quietly come around to listening to reason. Who in the hell is deciding to keep broken shit in the game for months at a time, instead of listening and just reverting their mistake?
: Blitzcrank needed that range buff. He’s extremely lackluster compared to other hook supports. Naut misses his hook? Its ok he can contribute to a fight with his Ultimate. He can use his q to escape as well. Pyke missed his hook? He still has mobility, sistain and a some cc if anything goes wrong. Has an escape! Thesh has better utility overall, and even can use his e and ult if anything goes wrong. If he misses his hook, he does lose lane pressure tho. He also has an escape. And for a teammate as well! What does blitz have? He literally depends on one ability. His q. Its pretty much hit or miss. Other than that, he doesnt contribute much to teamfights. Thats why he needs the best hook in the game.
Blitz hook is a one shot button. You arent guaranteed dead from other hook champs like you are with Blitz. You cant Zhonyas through Blitz's chain CC like you can vs other hook champs. Thresh and Pyke both telegraph their hooks unlike Blitz does. Thresh hook travel speed is slower than Blitz hook. Naut cant hook through terrain like Blitz can. When Naut hooks an enemy, hes moved into a more forward (and potentially more dangerous) position. Blitz can launch hooks all day from relative safety and almost always guarantees a 100-0 play from it. Blitz can literally miss 49 hooks in a single game, but can still win it if his 50th hook lands, Zhonyas or not.
iiGazeii (NA)
: Lethality isn't exclusive to assassins. Many bruisers and marksmen also build lethality.
Mind listing off some of the "many" bruisers and marksmen that also use Lethality?
Rioter Comments
: I think the issue with Riot's new balance principle is that they're trying so hard to minimize the weaknesses of each class, but for some reason they're not understanding that weaknesses make a champion balanced. Yuumi was the perfect example of Riot's new balance philosophy. An enchanter is squishy and needs to constantly consider positioning because often times they're the number one target due to their protective abilities. **Riot**: Let's completely eliminate the importance of positioning for this class and make them safe to play. {{champion:350}} Not only was that a disaster for solo queue, but the few people who found Yuumi fun to play are now stuck with a fundamentally broken champion that cannot be buffed because of the problems she presents due to the safety she was given. She's still banned in proplay after being a must pick/ban earlier in the year. If you liked Yuumi, you're just kind of stuck with a champion that isn't satisfying to play in solo queue. It's hard to get attached to these new champions knowing they're not going to be consistently viable for solo queue because Riot will cave to justifiable outcries and nerf them, or they'll be permabanned. {{champion:555}} If you're a longtime fan of a champion and they get reworked, then you know they're going to create a busted kit, nerf it, and never revisit your champion again. {{champion:266}} We see the same thing happen over and over again with Riot's balancing.
^^^^ This so much. So many of the new champions have kits that solve what would normally have been their own weaknesses. It would be like giving garen a skillshot slow, or giving Xerath a long CD blink that resets the CD of his non-ultimate spells. Champions are supposed to have built in weaknesses for other opponents to exploit. But lately, champions have all been about delivering a unilateral power fantasy. There arent windows of vulnerability that opponents can sieze on. Instead opponents have to just sit and watch and wait for a mechanical mistake to happen. Its more about your opponent messing up, rather than you initiating a clever proactive play. Not a good direction for the game.
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Josh Sand

Level 139 (NA)
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