: Wrong again buddy. I am not ignorant and this would make her less weak, still not a meta pick. ;)
Why are you still trying to talk back when you don't understand even the simplest things about League? Oh you're Bronze 5 0 LP with a 10% winrate. That explains a lot.
: I wonder will singed gonna be completely usless again when you nerf thornmail
You realize Singed is fine regardless right? He got hotfixes because he had 58-59% winrate. Learn what you're talking about before you make an ignorant []post.
: Actually. She isn't balanced, she's weak
Better weak than disgustingly broken and easily the strongest champion in the game because someone ignorant like you made a horrible suggestion because you have no idea what you're talking about?
: Annie fix
Yeah no, literally the only reason she's balanced is because she has that short of a range you ignorant []. You have no idea what you're talking about.
: Stop penalizing us for dodging in ARAM
How about you stop dodging then?
: Who is the most "Noskill" champion?
: Flaws's Ban appeal was toxic really sorry please uban D: - Perm on First offence no warning
: My thoughts on Quinn
Her current pattern of abusing Lethality items as ranged is an extremely unhealthy and toxic playstyle. But even I have to admit she's not that good with crit. Make her more actually involved in teamwork with her bird and shift her to Crit more. Crit is just as unhealthy as Lethality on ranged, but eh, that's another separate argument. And it's not like Riot will remove the Crit cancer any time soon anyways.
: can i get this dishonorable honor thing out?
No. What your friend did is irrelevant and was probably on a different tier of punishment than you. Stop complaining.
: but ranged champs get flat magic pen {{item:3020}} why cant a range ad champ have flat armor pen ? and flat armor pen gets out scaled with the more armor a target gets... where as % armor pen does more the more armor a target has.
Because mages are meant to nuke squishies? Because they're all burst and no DPS mostly? And ADCs aren't ever allowed to without sacrificing almost all of their DPS, like old Lethality Varus having no DPS at all but large burst? ADCs are meant to kill tanks and towers and somewhat of objective monsters. Nothing else. They don't need the burst from Lethality which is too good and doesn't force them to trade off enough DPS right now. Crit is also unhealthy but that's a different argument.
: oh no lets make any item that gives penetration to melee only and any range champ at all gets no armor pen or lethality or magic pen
Ranged champions don't need flat armorpen.
Mizaya (NA)
: Would that not completely destroy Quinn?
Yeah it'd destroy her abusive playstyle that shouldn't have existed in the first place, what of it?
: Uhm...then how are ADC supposed to get armor pen unless they build {{item:3035}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} ?
Because ADCs don't need flat armorpen?
Lyseth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Joxcab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOXa9IOz,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-07-18T19:04:24.687+0000) > > Because 1, he doesn't do that much, and 2, he doesn't have a non-damage form. So why do people call it that?
No one calls it that except you.
: Yes, tanks are meant to outlast an assassin's damage, in the short term. In the long term, the assassin still has the advantage because their escaping tools allow them to get much easier positive trades and if they're AD (which most tanks aren't) lifesteal of any degree tends to be more powerful in lane than raw health regen.
Yeah sure let me just fight the tank for 20-30 seconds and hope he just stands there doing nothing and that none of his teammates will come. Yeah, then I can kill the tank. Oh man, that's so releva- oh wait, no one fucking cares because an assassin will never do jackshit to a tank in an actual game.
: Do you not understand that you're being hyperbolic when you claim that assassin poke is worthless? Being a fighter or duelist has basically nothing to do with devaluing poke. It's about sustain, which only really exists on items as lifesteal. You can't purchase enough health regen to really make any impact and spell vamp is gone. So unless you're going to have built in healing or be AD, poke does matter, a lot.
Mages aren't going to be in range of sufficiently strong poke for it to matter, everyone else will either straight up tank or heal it back. Your argument is irrelevant. Dismissed.
Virgô (NA)
: Lethality Should Be Melee Only.
Yeah, but either way, Duskblade is a problem on all of its users including melees right now.
Lyseth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Winters Dawn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOXa9IOz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-07-18T02:55:54.670+0000) > > Kayn isn't even that strong. then explain how he does stupid amounts with ONLY Youmuu's in his "non-dmg" form
Because 1, he doesn't do that much, and 2, he doesn't have a non-damage form.
: If you want mobility you better agree to a targeted stun. Just saying.
Frozen4o (EUNE)
: Master Yi and Kayle?
You don't, as a marksman. That's the job of people with CC.
DracoMTA (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Illâoi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z3ujoiEw,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-17T10:25:24.024+0000) > > That would mean you need both for the best pushing effort. > > Right now both have both. It's almost like Riot forgot ADC's are supposed to be single target champions.
: I don't like our current gameplay
Targeted stun isn't healthy, just saying.
: You just don't know how to analyze a system. Assassin can kill tanks, and do regularly. It's generally how the 1v1 goes down. Which is the point, of this whole fucking thing. The game's fundamental design is one which involves a prolonged period of 1v1 fighting somewhere on the map. This is caused by the nature of the number of players, Exp system, and even something as mundane as the time it takes to move across the map. Fine, an assassin can die to a tank + marksmen all day fucking long, but that means, that you're consuming 2 enemy's players attention for the cost a 1 of yours. Which is before you consider that most CC is attached to skill shots, but most assassin burst is attached to targeted or much more forgiving aimed abilities. It's not that riot is pandering towards ADCs, it's that they're pandering towards a design, which their game's fundamental mechanics aren't designed to support. They're trying to increase burst and increase mobility while decreasing game length and decreasing downtime. This is why CDR has become so fucking overly abundant, despite originally being designed as the AP multiplier secondary stat (which is why it's under "Magic" in the in game shop). This is why snowballing seems so bad. This is why fights are now decided in a matter of frames, rather than a matter of seconds. ADCs just happen to benefit the most from this system, because AD benefits the most from this system and targeted damage benefits the most from this system.
Nope, they don't. An assassin can't kill a tank in anything under like 20+ seconds without being massively ahead of a behind tank. Which shouldn't even happen because with that long, then a jungler or the rest of the team would come. You're looking at it the wrong way. An ADC is a team-reliant role in the first place that SHOULD be with their team anyways. The ADC isn't ever going to be alone unless they're retarded anyways. Most assassins are bad at splitpushing so they have to come to the ADC anyways. And then you consider most CC that would be used against an assassin is either also targeted or AoE or near unmissable at the point blank melee range an assassin is FORCED to go. Riot has repeatedly balanced things to focus and/or revolve around ADCs regardless of the consequences to anyone else it was more relevant to. But yeah, I agree on your last few points. Riot is focusing on making the game too fast.
: > if they use up their gapcloser to go in, then they can't escape with it for the next several seconds which is a massive amount of time to be surrounded by the entire fucking team. Which again, is a kill which requires a fight larger than 1v1. > Poke doesn't fucking matter unless the target is squishy anyways at which point they can just all-in for the 100-0 anyways theoretically. Wtf are you talking about? Poke doesn't matter **when** a target is squishy, because they can all-in for 100-0. The whole fucking game when fighting someone who you can't 100-0 is about trading/poking, and properly judging how much burst you can do to finish them off, while trying to keep that information away from them.
Um, assassins are the masters of a short 1v1, duelists being the masters of extended 1v1s. I think I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, can you clarify? Anyone you CANNOT 100-0 CAN'T BE POKED DOWN LOW ENOUGH TO BE BURSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Do you not get something that simple? Fighters and other duelists are far too tanky or have survival tools (such as Trynd's ult). Your poke is going to do no damage at all to anyone tankier like a juggernaut or more.
Rioter Comments
: because shitty design* remember, most assassins also have the mobility or poke, to weaken an enemy before they'd commit to a fight. They only need to be able to 1-shot someone from however low they can get them before they fuck up, get greedy and put themselves out of position. They are generally the ones that need to make a positioning mistake though, because if you use a gap closer or initiation tool, their mobility doubles as disengage.
You should learn what you're talking about. Poke doesn't fucking matter unless the target is squishy anyways at which point they can just all-in for the 100-0 anyways theoretically. And no, if they use up their gapcloser to go in, then they can't escape with it for the next several seconds which is a massive amount of time to be surrounded by the entire fucking team.
: Just because you can CC an assassin doesn't mean you can kill an assassin. Even more so considering that most CC has been attached to skillshots and assassins have a disproportionate degree of mobility. So by design, their biggest counter is also the one that they account for the most. Even then, a tank can CC an assassin all day, but that doesn't mean they have the damage to kill the assassin, but they can't really be given the damage to kill an assassin, because the damage needed to kill an assassin is the damage needed to kill a squishy, which would include ADC. Which is the role intended to counter tanks. But if you buff marksmen, to avoid them dying to the now buffed tanks, then they overwhelm their intended counter of assassins. This model is completely fucked. It's by nature impossible to balance, simply by the existence of assassins. All it's doing is promoting an arms race between assassins > tanks > marksmen.
Or no, you just don't know how League works. An assassin can't kill a tank anyways if they're not almost dead already. The only ones an assassin can kill are squishies or low health targets. The tank CCs the assassin in a teamfight and the damage dealers kill them in half a second. Mobility doesn't matter when it's literally predetermined where the assassin has to go because they're going to have to get in melee range of the squishy targets. By nature it is perfectly possible to balance except Riot still keeps fucking pandering to and pretty much only to ADCs for the entirety of the history of League.
: > Because Riot has a hardon for not making items melee only Riot has a hardon on not making effect melee only, because unless the effect interacts with basic attacks and basic attacks alone making it melee only usually means really bad design. Melee champions come in all shapes and sizes, and say Zed's playstyle is much, much closer to Ahri's or LeBlancs than to Garen's. Not all melee champions deserve the same kind of bonus power from items. See Seju's stacks or Frozen Mallet. Basic attack range is the only thing that dictates power of the effect, so they could safely be range-restricted. Now compare it to Sterak's. There is no version of Sterak's that would be strong enough for Darius, but weak enough to allow Rengar to build it, so it had to be restricted in a fancier way than "melee-only". It took time and pain, but eventually we got a good iteration of this item that fighters enjoy but neither assassin or marksmen abuse - while still retaining the option to situationally build it. "Melee only" is the easiest and the worst way out.
Uh yeah except the only intended users of flat armorpen originally were melees until Riot decided to be retarded and tried to pander and rebalance it to ADCs and now fucked it up for everyone. Also Sterak's is still garbage tier at the moment.
: The Boards: 1k IQ Balancing Discussions
how do you even manage to get that strawman out of that marksmen are supposed to kill tanks as are other attack speed carries whether ranged or melee and then fiora is a specific tankbuster people complaining fiora should do physical are actually retarded
: I want to know the counterplay to yi
You CC him and he dies in half a second.
: I'd be ok with that, except Tanks usually have high base armor, and bonus open can't cut through that.
They only have around 20 or so more base armor at level 18 than an ADC.
: > [{quoted}](name=Joxcab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GppKdvYX,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-17T21:33:02.810+0000) > > Nope, her true damage was perfectly balanced. If her true damage was SO FINE, she wouldn't receive nerf .
That's not the reason she got the nerfs you [].
: > [{quoted}](name=Joxcab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GppKdvYX,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-07-17T20:47:40.737+0000) > > Yeah and by doing that you'd remove the entire point of playing Fiora and why she was balanced around her true damage but okay. No, true damage is bad, and it make her obnoxious to face. Her passive need to physical.
Nope, her true damage was perfectly balanced.
: I hope she is shit now. Change her innate to physical damage, and I'd be happy to allow her back.
Yeah and by doing that you'd remove the entire point of playing Fiora and why she was balanced around her true damage but okay.
Sinlaire (NA)
: You did it Boards! Fiora was dumpstered!
Sigh. Yes, she could have used some slight nerfs to be toned down. But this makes her ultimate just worthless.
: They can simply buy whatever item they want from the so called "marksman only items" No one is saying you cant. The only item they cant really buy is hurricane because of the function of hurricane. Same with Hydra and titanic. Im not sure if they are pandering to us Marksman now because of updates that will begin hitting us. Sure we were getting out of hand. The really only thing that needs to be nerfed is Draven, Caitlyn traps, and I guess twitch? Personally I think he is fine. Just because we all have all these items doesn't mean we can use them all. Most ADC now have 3 or 4 crit items, armor pen, and lifesteal. Depending on the composition of the enemy we have to change the build path just like everyone else. It's a game of change, and people only whine about caitlyn traps (I think they are fine.) Draven becoming a drain tank because supports too keeping him alive, and hypergame twitch. That is all I see on the forums. Then they talk about all ADC like they know what they are talking about.
You realize for literally all of League's entire history Riot has balanced or changed things around ADCs instead of anyone else as the first and highest priority right? And then the others? There's literally a dozen or so examples I could probably think of off just the top of my head. No, not really. You go IE+2 Zeal items and Lord Dom's. Then the last is any sort of situational. Bloodthirster for more sustain, Death's Dance for near absolute burst immunity, Mercurial for MR+lifesteal+QSS, Maw for just deleting any chance of enemy APs doing anything, GA for AD threats, etc. There's literally only one possible item you'd have to change, and most of the time just going lifesteal is enough to mitigate any other kind of damage such as AD or AP sourced. Marksmen and ranged are not meant to be able to use flat armorpen originally but Riot pandered to them again and then tried to rebalance it around them which has and is still causing multiple balance problems repeatedly.
: Are you for real? O_O You really saying that LB has inferior burst compared to .....just about any mage in the game? the LB? I don't know a single mage that cant kill a marksman in a single rotation with 3 items+boots. There isn't a single one. ' hell i´ve been blown 100-0 by a LB on some mages when we both only had morello.
Almost 60 to 70% of her damage is locked behind the forced 1.5s delay. The second E proc as well as the passive being usually what that is. She has insane potential burst because of her high ratios. But Twitch is just going to kill her before said 1.5s is up. For that matter, LeBlanc isn't going to get him to the health requirement with the initial first strike anyways, and in the meantime he just heals it back. Also if LB is truly being a problem, he just gets a Hexdrinker or Maw and she's done. Other mages can blow her up exactly the same way except the issue is they need to actually land skillshots, not targeted autoattacks. Also lifesteal existing.
Osir1s1 (EUW)
: ADC'c are not even far op. Tell me with how many ADC's can you kill a tank in reasonable time?? Even with vayne it takes way too long to kill a tank and in the meantime if you focus the tank u ended up by dying, if you focus the adc/mid u die by tanks etc. This tank meta is AIDS for this game. ADC's are deleted the moment they get a single cc and most of champions have more than one cc and imagine 3 champs with more than one cc each. GG
It's not a tank meta. If you died to tanks, you played horribly. ADCs do just fine currently. Also this thread isn't about them being OP. It's about them having an inherently unhealthy design.
: Except they can't do "sustained damage" because they can only survive about 5 second in a fight. If you can't take out at least 3 people in those 5 seconds you're dead fosho
"only 5 seconds" 5 seconds is a massively long time in a fight. Also what do you think is the point of your entire team? No one should ever be able to kill 3 people in 5 seconds. That's actually fucking disgustingly retarded broken. Do you even see what you're typing?
Elikain (EUNE)
: I'm not sure what you do mean with "they shouldn't burst". Crit should be deleted? They shouldn't be allowed to use any skills? They should DoT to turn them into sustained damage dealers? Every character has the same potential to deal you a chunk of damage, through AAs or spells.
If it's lategame and they have full build and they shoot at another squishy who isn't super behind/is even or ahead, the ADC shouldn't ever be able to 2-3 shot kill them. Draven does it with axe juggling alone. Caitlyn does it with just RFCShiv-Q-auto. Twitch wipes an entire team with R-E. So on and so forth. There's mostly only a few problem ADCs at the moment, but other ADCs such as Ashe or Jinx can do the same at full build as well. That shouldn't ever be something they can do. It doesn't matter if they're DPS. They shouldn't ever get to a point where their DPS beats burst champions at their own job. Hence the ideas for ramp up exponential increase so they ramp up into their strength which can then get even stronger than now, but only once they build up first.
: The weird part was that they did for like half a PBE patch.
Yeah then Riot realized their mistake. Kappa.
DJ Sona (EUW)
: League of Duskblade
{{champion:40}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3147}}
GIaceon (EUNE)
: More like * Riot reworks lethality * ADCs abuse lethality * Lethality gets nerfed leaving assassins in worse state than before * Riot reworks lethality
And as we all know, we can't just make Lethality items melee only so that literally their intended users can use them because then Riot fails in pandering to ADCs once again.
: You may give him some compensation buffs, but fuck that healing.
Grievous says hello.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mig89,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UfGRfAlo,comment-id=000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-17T15:54:38.918+0000) > > Hes saying he got counterpicked, outplayed, and he has no map pressure. > Asks for nerfs Not asking for nerfs just that if Singed wants that play style he should have to sacrifice part of his itemization to get it. How is that asking for nerfs?
That is literally the definition of what a nerf can entail.
: Just because you saying it's intended for melee doesn't mean it is. If the item doesn't get restricted to just melees then ranged will continue to buy. Besides I haven't seen the level of delete like the assassins so far. Ranged have nothing on them assassins with duskblade. The only one I see really using any lethality is jhin.
You are simply ignorant, that is the problem. Ranged continues to be able to buy because Riot continues to pander to ADCs, it's not a surprise. Then you haven't seen much.
: Just start building adaptive helmet. Orianna has very low cooldowns on her Q, so she will do less damage the more she uses it and Syndra R gets reduced from it since every ball Counts as a separate spellcast-hit.
Yeah let me build Adaptive on a midlaner.
: adjective 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power. noun 3. an omnipotent being. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/692/19789999.jpg
That's the point you ignorant []. ADCs don't lose enough power at any point in the game for going for BOTRK or Duskblade or other earlygame options, which ends up making them strong at all points in the game, which is pretty much the same as having unlimited power with their presence at all points in the game, which is also fairly strong, hence 'very' great.
Sraeg2013 (EUNE)
: You missed the point.
: 7 CS per minute or 7 CS at 10-minute mark? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
The latter is the joke because of Pantheon's insane lane pressure.
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Joxcab

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