: Road to Pre-Season: Assassin Update
> we want Talon to use the terrain to his advantage as he tracks down his target across the map before mercilessly putting them down. Isn't his passive named "Mercy" though?
Zerenza (NA)
: I AM SO SICK OF YASUO!
> [{quoted}](name=Zerenza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tgq5YLPQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-28T18:53:37.605+0000) > > Ignoring whether he's OP or not, does anyone actually enjoy fighting this champ, fuck no he's a pain in the ass. You can be as much of an upset, whiny bitch about a champion as you like, but the moment you try to speak for others, someone ***like myself*** will immediately say, "No, you're wrong, shut up and stop being a bitch." I *like* fighting against Yasuo.
: I'd say attack speed is probably one of the most visible instances of a stat steroid you can have, since you can immediately see exactly how fast a champion is attacking. Movement speed and health are visible power in that respect as well. By contrast, resists are difficult to appreciate even when you're attacking someone, since you can't really calculate how much damage is being reduced on the fly. That doesn't mean we can't have damage reduction effects, but we do need them to be displayed more clearly.
That is a perfectly fair assessment. Although AS is still only visible once combat has begun, it *is* seen a few fractions of a second before stats like AD, AP, Armor or MR. And I would have no problem with making those steroids have more visible indicators.
kile147 (NA)
: 6.20 Patch Notes: Graves now stealths for a short period after dashing.
: Sometimes I forget that logic affects you like water off a duck's back. Carry on.
Sometimes, I forget people like you can't use logic. Or history. Or brain cells.
: No, they used it a lot. Zillean, Sona, WW, throwing it around as much as they could to justify massive changes, and players picked up on the phrase. Players apply it to all instances where it fits, and Developers apply it to all instances they don't like. Now I happen to think some level of "Invisible power" is needed, but the devs do harp on it heavily in instances where they feel they can use the buzzword to their advantage, and ignore it in other cases.
> [{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kUjMrlwl,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T18:49:49.251+0000) > > Players apply it to all instances where it fits, and Developers apply it to all instances they don't like. That couldn't be more ass-backwards if it came from that one South Park episode. The *community* abuses the terms. Riot, not so much. I would have to be ignorant to say they've *never* used one of the many different specific terms of imbalance in poor context, but they're a lot less loose-fucking-lipped than the several million Bronze and should-be-Bronze players trying to sound like they understand balance words really good.
: No, that's invisible power too. They just tend to accept some versions better than others, or use the phrase too liberally when removing features.
> [{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kUjMrlwl,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T17:43:35.344+0000) > > No, that's invisible power too. > > They just tend to accept some versions better than others, or use the phrase too liberally when removing features. **They** use the phrase too liberally? > [{quoted}](name=137434,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kUjMrlwl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-27T17:04:55.191+0000) > > Except that is not why they removed the bonus resistances: > > http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-418-notes > > [Akali's one of those champions who, when she gets ahead, completely circumvents her meaningful weaknesses by having extra resistances from Twilight Shroud. A fed Akali ultimately turns into a bruiser-assassin Akali who hops into a fight, tanks out damage in Twilight Shroud, and then continues to obliterate the squishies. Rather than removing her defensive mechanics completely, we wanted to focus Akali's skills on more ninja-y things, hence the heavier focus on sneaking and agility. This also allows us to reinforce the proper counterplay to Akali (reveal her in stealth and beat her up), give her better themed mechanics, all while reiterating her focus on opportunistic assassinations. Up front: this is meant to be an overall nerf, but we hope Akali players will be more focused on the cool plays they can make with this new mechanic.] > I'm not saying Grave's bonus E resistances shouldn't be nerfed btw. But the reasoning isn't (and shouldn't be) "invisible power." The reasoning is that it is making him way too tanky for the damage he can dish out. ...or the **players** try to use the term too liberally, like they do with *every other* term?
: And then you realize Akali's shroud is one of the most easily countered abilities in the game. Don't forget how powerful a dash is for a ranged champion that does massive damage especially when it's on such a low cooldown. It doesn't matter that he can still be targeted when you have 120 armor and mr while dealing a ton of damage while being ranged. That doesn't even include PD and Death's Dance
I'll agree that the 120 Armor/MR is bullshit, even though it takes him, what, 10-15 seconds to build it up *after* level 13. Graves is about as "ranged" as mini-Gnar, except with less mobility to make up for his damage output. He works *best* when fighting like he's melee, so that doesn't exactly make the "he's ranged" argument look good.
: You don't get how invisible power works do you? Akali W used to have invisible power because it granted resistances. Sure you would know she had those resistances if she was in it but it was invisible power because it wasn't clear that the ability was specifically doing that. Graves E has invisible power in the same way because you can hit him with a skillshot and see it do X amount of damage. later on in a fight you could jump on him and hit him for only a fraction of that damage because he has stacks of true grit that he didn't have before. It isn't obvious power because it is just a stat that isn't being obviously shown and the amount of resistances it is granting isn't obviously shown. Rammus W on the other hand is clearly a defensive ability that is obviously apparent, especially since the majority of what it does is grant a massive stat boost for a short duration, people know exactly what it does. In comparison when you tried to describe everything Graves E does you never mentioned it's resistances because it isn't something you think about. That is invisible power.
Does that make Jax's passive and Jinx's Q passive invisible power as well, then? They both build up stacks of a stat that only becomes obvious when you see them in a fight, and they can build up to full power without you seeing them first. But, oh, that *doesn't count* because it's not defensive stat buildup, right?
: It grants resistances. Invisible power is power that it isn't obvious a champ has, stats that clearly some people aren't aware exist are invisible power.
But there's a ***marker*** on the champion for how many stacks of True Grit he has active. It's not "invisible" if the game *fucking tells you.* What, do you want a Rammus W ball on him?
: "We removed Akali's MR and Armor from her shroud because it was invisible power"
I didn't know Graves became invisible with E--*Oh, wait, no.* All it does otherwise is a dash and a single shell reload. It doesn't protect him from being targeted.
: I have many other counters to Yasuo, but i still hate it in my games. That being said I will keep banning it even if it is nerfed, because I hate his VO
How can you hate those smooth, sharp pipes? It's certainly a voice I wouldn't tire of hearing
: If you could remove one champion from the game
None of 'em. http://img.cinemablend.com/cb/4/1/a/b/2/7/41ab275084ed00dc330f5208422555b63974780eeb2ffc0d57347ff20fae6df1.jpg
Vistha Kai (EUNE)
: _[I fucking hate when I'm trying to double-check information and end up opening a link in the same tab I'm writing, so here's a short version of what I was writing for the past 30 minutes.]_ The way I see it there's only one reason why Rylai's became a problem. Item changes in MYMU. Zhonya's Hourglass and Rod of Ages to be exact. Before MYMU RoA was a 120AP-tier item with 800 points of mana when stacked. Now it's 100 AP item with HALF the mana. Cost decrease by 400gold may be tempting, but Rylai's naturally replaced RoA for pretty much everybody who wasn't getting RoA as first or second item. Then there is Zhonya's which also seen a big decrease in AP from 100 to... 70, which is less than nobody's favourite - Liandry's Torment. Not to mention the very core of Zhonya's was also nerfed - the active, which went from 90 second to 120 seconds. Again the cost decreased, but nobody was complaining even when it costed 3500 gold. --- Personally, I don't buy Zhonya anymore, unless I absolutely have to. It's just that bad and it seems higher ELOs share my sentiment. _[For some reason I can't access LoLKing's statistics, so here's less accurately from League Of Graphs]_ Between Bronze+ and Silver+, Rylai has 8% buy rate, while Zhonya has 10,5%. In Gold+ Rylai has 9,3% and Zhonya drops to 10,1%. In Plat+ Rylai is at 9,6% and Zhonya... drops below to 9,3%. Diamond+ Rylai's at 10% and Zhonya's at 8,1%. I wish I could access older data, because I'm sure I'd see that, before MYMU Zhonya had like 20% buyrate with Rylai's maybe 5% on average. _Notice those are percentages for 10 players in the game aka 10% meaning that on average 1 person builds it every game without a fail._ --- **TL;DR** Rylai isn't problem. MYMU is the problem.
See? That's better, it points directly to evidence that the argument doesn't hold up. And now I can agree, the "problem" with Rylai's is that it became a more valid option due to other items being nerfed. It makes perfect sense. I have nothing to argue against it.
Vistha Kai (EUNE)
: Jesus Christ, that was in July of **2014**.
And? The fact that a change happened *years ago* has never been a legitimate response. Do you know how many changes have been made to the game in two years? You could easily go back and count them with the patch notes, but the *point* of that rhetorical question is this: **There are a lot of things that were balanced two years ago and are not balanced now.** Please give a more valid response. I expect better from you, Vistha.
: Why is everyone complaining about Rylais
Because Rylai's got buffed in damage, making it a legitimate damage option with the other AP items. Which is somewhat reasonable, considering that it has the same amount of AP as Luden's or RoA, but it has a decent slow attached instead of their respective power mechanics.
Jaygo41 (NA)
: yeah yknow Cyan is actually one of my favorite champs
> [{quoted}](name=Jaygo41,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEcEmVst,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-23T01:35:20.663+0000) > > yeah yknow Cyan is actually one of my favorite champs Cyan mid or feed
: Critical Attack Damage Runes
Rune prices have been ridiculous and uneven for a long time. We're just waiting until Riot finally reworks the system to make more sense.
: "But it's ok for the LCS to play the same 12 champions!"
> [{quoted}](name=Enigma Brooks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XkEpQIxA,comment-id=002b,timestamp=2016-09-24T13:06:26.356+0000) > > "But it's ok for the LCS to play the same 12 champions!" \>looks at the highest-level players using a smaller pool of champions in tournaments \>thinks it's anywhere close to a for-fun mode made specifically to break champions The difference is that *millions* of people can play URF, while ***how many people play in LCS?***
Wolfess (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=XTRMN00B1337,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iIa9UWZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-23T02:37:04.787+0000) > > No. He wouldn't be able to trade in lane at all after this. Also pop it with an auto attack before poking him, his shield is arguably the most shittiest one, that's why it's free. this only works with ranged enemies, and even then that doesn't mean he's going to stick around to get skills thrown at him, he just takes a few seconds to bring it back up. > [{quoted}](name=yerteenagedream,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iIa9UWZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-23T02:24:21.458+0000) > > But then he could poked more effectively and lose some all in sustain which might make him actually lose a fight and that's something yasuo players can't deal with. are you saying yasuo players are unable to dodge skillshots like any other champ? If he wants to go in he already has his wall that blocks any projectile for a decent amount of time. > [{quoted}](name=DesireableD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iIa9UWZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-09-23T02:43:05.273+0000) > > that would make yasuo almost unplayable. his sheild is what keeps him alive, and if you cant beat him because of the sheild than you just arent good enough at league yet ranged champs might get away with scaring him with a ranged auto poke to pop it, but melee champs don't get that luxury. As stated above too, smart ones will wait the few seconds it takes to recover the free expendable hp shield. his waveclear is good enough that he doesn't really care if the enemy laner pushes in, in fact it actually helps him because he gets a lot of enemy minions to proc his E on and then he can just clear them fast when he thinks they've been around too long.
> [{quoted}](name=Wolfess,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iIa9UWZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-09-23T03:03:21.309+0000) > > this only works with ranged enemies, and even then that doesn't mean he's going to stick around to get skills thrown at him, he just takes a few seconds to bring it back up. 10-17 seconds at any point in the game. I *fucking dare you* to defy me on this fact. Yasuo has to walk 5900/5200/4600 distance to build up his shield. He has 345 base MS. At base MS, it takes him 17.1 seconds of constant walking to build up his shield in the laning phase. Even late-game, if you were to have 460 MS, you still would take 10 seconds to build it up. The only way to refresh it faster is by using his *ultimate.* Spamming his dash *slightly* increases how quickly it builds up. > are you saying yasuo players are unable to dodge skillshots like any other champ? If he wants to go in he already has his wall that blocks any projectile for a decent amount of time. 4 seconds out of 26 for most of the game. CDR's not a very useful stat on him because his core abilities, Q and E, don't scale with it well enough to matter. And name for me a melee champion *squishier* than Yasuo. If you said "Fizz with his E on cooldown," you'd have a chance of being right for the first time in this thread. > ranged champs might get away with scaring him with a ranged auto poke to pop it, but melee champs don't get that luxury. As stated above too, smart ones will wait the few seconds it takes to recover the free expendable hp shield. his waveclear is good enough that he doesn't really care if the enemy laner pushes in, in fact it actually helps him because he gets a lot of enemy minions to proc his E on and then he can just clear them fast when he thinks they've been around too long. So why is it *other* melee players have absolutely no trouble with Yasuo? Why am I able to *fucking stomp him* in lane? Maybe it's because *I know how to force him to stay for a fight once his shield goes away, making the damage stick.*
: I get what you are saying. and i know that for BC it is any physical damage. But in my case it was only Phage and it was built into trinity. But I do believe it to be a bug if that is the case.
Okay, just making sure, sorry if I was a bit insulting. I've...honestly had to explain things like that before.
: If I want to fast push I have to cast two spells hence the 190 mana
Yeah, still doing it wrong. If you're only worrying about pushing, a single W is going to take almost all of the caster minions' health bars. There's going to be, at most, one auto's worth of HP left. **You** are the only one deciding that not waiting 2 seconds to get them is "worth" wasting another 90 mana.
: Who are you anyways? At no point in the game does Pillar one shot the casters, I had a Rylai's and Morello at idk 15 minutes and had to w and e to kill minions unless I wanted to auto attack them. I'm like Lee Harvey Oswald with my spells so no aim is not an issue.
I didn't at all imply that you were going to 1-shot casters with Pillar. I said *if you spend more than 100 mana on the caster minions, you're doing poorly.*
: But the Mist Walkers don't apply on-hits besides Life Steal
Once again. ***Phage*** {{item:3044}} Is an on-hit effect. It only applies when the champion has dealt a basic attack, or is using a spell that specifically states it applies on-hit effects. If it is *this item* that's applying the speed buff, that's a bug. ***Black Cleaver*** {{item:3071}} Is an item that activates *when a champion deals physical damage.* Pet damage is still considered champion damage. Yorick's ghouls deal physical damage. Ergo, still applies.
: Best part is you still don't get the point of this topic.
By mid-game, if you're spending more than 100 mana on killing the caster minions, *you either have a shit build or shit aim.* Or, *possibly,* you've fallen behind and couldn't keep up. Best part is you're *still* shit at Brand, no matter which one of those is the right one.
: 190 mana isnt the cost of it early game. way to know all about your favorite mage.
You're right, it's 130 mana when you have both spells at their first rank. But I didn't claim that I memorized Brand's statistics, I just said that ***you can't hack it, shitlord.*** Best part is you're posting behind an alt account so I can't accurately criticize your *shit build.*
: Why do Yorick's Mist Walkers apply Phage's passive?
If it's *actually* Phage that's applying this, it's probably a bug. **However,** Black Cleaver can be applied, because it's applied whenever "physical damage" is dealt. Just like how Rylai's applies through pet spell damage.
: Why do I have to spend 190 mana as Brand just to kill ranged minions?
Because you're not supposed to be wasting all your mana on minions in the early-game. Doing that is *stupid.* Good job being shit at my favorite mage.
: Each star has to complete 1/3 of it's orbit before it can damage the same target again.
But if that's the case, why is it that I can walk a full circle around someone, keeping the same star on them, and have it only hit once?
Rioter Comments
: both, when you are trying to make a "logical" statement you must give a context for your statement otherwise its gona end up with multiple interpretation for each reader to pick and chose
I chose my words carefully, and you *misinterpreted* them to "prove" that you can pretend I said something else. The most vague set of terms are "open up" which *could* be used to say that they weren't available at all, if the sentence ended two words later instead of seven. If I chopped off half of your sentences in the right places, I could change what you said as well. But I'm not an intentionally misrepresenting fool whose only contribution is to poke at a non-issue phrase. *Hundreds* of people have already caught on to what I said. But I'm sure twisting what I've said into a straw man helps you with your petty stress. Don't let me calling your bullshit stop you, now.
Kalision (NA)
: I think kassadin should have no mana so he can freely ult around
URF mode has shown how well that works out
: There is more than one way to be good at League
: quote: Open up itemization options that they'd left alone previously that reads as inaccessible unless you want to develop upon it and give it a context. Or if you want people to read your mind, then sry, we ain't mutants
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYGgFMRT,comment-id=001a0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-18T05:50:57.977+0000) > > ~~quote:~~ > ~~Open up itemization options~~_** that they'd left alone**_ ~~previously~~ > > ~~that reads as inaccessible unless you want to develop upon it and give it a context. Or if you want people to read your mind, then sry, we ain't mutants~~ Do you even read, m8? Or are you just trying to piss me off?
Not xPeke (EUW)
: No one is salty and no one got offended "really quick". If you really want to label me as offended it's probably because of the numerous posts and comments on this topic that are just so hypocritical and biased, so hardly happened "quickly". And I'm sorry I don't agree with the misconception that the two most complained roles are Support and Jungler. Especially in the botlane the ADC is the one who takes the blame, unless it's the ADC himself flaming the support. More often than not the Support will blame the lost lane, cs lead (or lack of), deaths, lane pressure, etc, on the ADC himself. He will manage to convince everyone it is indeed the ADC because "stats don't lie", when really, it's the Support that should win the lane for the duo. I agree with you on your second point, sure they do have a bit more on their mind but I still hate when people, mostly Support players (not as much junglers), are self-entitled and go about playing their role so arrogantly. It used to be ADCs that were spoiled and arrogant, but roles are quickly turning in Support players placing themselves on a pedistal to look down on everyone else. Also, I'm not assuming YOU necessarily see it that way, all black or white, I just chose to reply to your comment because it was the first I saw with the mentality "welcome to the your fault role as a jungler" thingy. Nothing personal. Just wanted to say what I think on the matter seeing as people are a bit hypocritical on this topic.
> [{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ViHQbbqg,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-18T01:42:48.161+0000) > > I agree with you on your second point, sure they do have a bit more on their mind but I still hate when people, mostly Support players (not as much junglers), are self-entitled and go about playing their role so arrogantly. It used to be ADCs that were spoiled and arrogant, but roles are quickly turning in Support players placing themselves on a pedestal to look down on everyone else. In short summary, not all supports are the quiet healbots/wardbots that made the lane easy for carries. Some of them are assholes now. Yeah, that's frustrating. Assholes are always frustrating. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a running joke, *mostly because it does run in line with the experience of junglers.* It doesn't mean we literally believe it's a law, or rule of the universe, that jungler *always* takes the blame. We just joke about it *because it happens.* And with supports...for the longest time, they got no recognition, even though the K/D/A system has been with League the entire time. "You have 0 kills and 6 deaths Soraka!" [meanwhile also has 30 assists and kept the carry from ever dying] it's not *justified* that supports started turning the tables, toxicity just breeds more toxicity. But it's not ***unexpected*** either.
: again, those build paths are not "inaccessible" are just either "not explored" like trinity yasuo was for a long time or seen as slightly inefficient (as if that 300 gold you would've spend on mana is gona cost you the game >.> lets be real, even in lcs 300g is not a huge difference and sure as hell its not for us casuals) the words you might have been searching for is: they might be forced to build mana items and for that, guess what, some mana using champions are pretty much forced to build those >.> its nothing new and nothing special
***I. Never. Said. They. Were. Inaccessible.*** You just barely piss out an acceptable "your version" of what I'm saying, so at least I don't have to reiterate my point like I'm having an echo contest with a brick wall.
ƒoes (NA)
: I always feel that if you gave Yasuo a mana bar, he'll have so many more options for items. He can already build somewhere around 20 and make it work. You wouldn't want {{item:3004}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3078}} to be *better* on him, would you?
Inb4 someone else comes in with the "but he already can" argument. Yeah, Yasuo still has the *option* to build most of these items, and in some cases he does. But there's a difference between having *access* to these items and *wanting to build* these items. The second is a question of build efficiency, whether or not it's *worth* building an item. Unless there's a *reason* to build the item, not being able to use the Mana portion of it makes it not as attractive an option. It's why you don't see Riven or Garen picking up Sheen, instead opting for things like Warhammer or Dirk that give more immediate benefits without wasting stats.
Not xPeke (EUW)
: I'm tired of this victim-like mentality. EVERY role blames everyone else. It's not just junglers getting blamed. In the botlane for example, the ADC usually gets most of the blame, for dieing or falling behind in CS. The support will easily convince the team by "flaming" that it's the ADC that is crap and not his fault. Yet funnily enough botlane is won by the Support player if he's good, not by the ADC. ADCs don't win lanes, Supports do. Anyway I digress. The jungler is obviously more prone to being blamed because some laners are quick to blame them for being beaten 1v1 or 2v2, and you as the jungler have to "babysit" 3 different lanes, sure. However the same way a laner can lose lane by constantly dieing, perma pushing and/or being camped, it is also correct to point out that the enemy jungler is out-jungling you if you don't apply the same amount of pressure or help your laner. I'm not saying it's fair for the lane losing to blame you as the jungler, but alot of the times you are being out-jungled yourself, which leads to the laners falling behind through ganks/tower dives and roams. At this point the jungler's excuse will be "you lost lane all by yourself doing <insert reason>", without considering that **maybe** the reason he is behind is because the enemy jungler simply and honestly put, is having a larger impact than yourself. You say "you're overextended" and stuff like that, there's this thing called counter ganking. I'm not a jungle main but if I see my laner pushing alot, I will ward for him and hover his lane (if possible, not saying it's always viable, but it's certainly possible). He might get camped because he's playing recklessly, but you can still do something about it. Blaming him instead of actively trying to help does no good. Having said all this, I don't condone the usual blame given to junglers when things get rough, but you also have to accept that often enough it's not wrong to think so.
Chocolate Christ, dude, you got offended really quick. *Yes, almost everyone blames other roles for failures.* People don't like admitting that they're at fault for a lost game. But, of all the jobs in the game, the two that get the most complaint are Support and Jungler. Sometimes, it's rightfully so. Support and Jungler have a *bit* more on their mind throughout the entire game. Warding, keeping lanes going, checking the status of the whole team, paying attention to the enemy team's locations...They don't get to just plant a ward, last-hit and call it a Laning Phase. I'm not saying they're the only classes to get blamed when a team loses. You assumed that's what I meant and got saltier than Lays and more fiery than jalapeños. More often than not, I'll call myself out for being a shit player *when I'm dragging the team down.*
: Wrong, if Riven wanted Sheen procs she'd buy Trinity anyways, like Yasuo does. Legit seriously, giving Riven mana doesn't give her any better OP itemization.
Ah, so the concept of "efficiency" is entirely foreign to you. You don't understand what I'm saying. *Just because you have the option does not mean you are going to choose it. You need a reason to pick one option over another. Right now, there is absolutely no reason for Riven to bother with Sheen. If she* ***needed Mana,*** *she would then have a reason to do so.* It does not *"give her better itemization,"* it ***makes the option appealing.***
Offrole (NA)
: B-b-but no mana op!!1! On a serious note you seem smart and like someone who can think ahead to the consequences of an action. Have my upvote
Don't be fooled by appearances, I can make an absolute fool of myself in moments Seriously though, thanks
: actually, if you want to, you can built those already on lee and get all that. It's not like manaless champs can't built items that have mana...
> [{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYGgFMRT,comment-id=000300020001,timestamp=2016-09-17T11:29:42.817+0000) > > It&#x27;s not like manaless champs can&#x27;t built items that have mana... I see this argument made, and I have to wonder if you've ever heard of the concept of "efficiency" Champions build items based on what they need to scale through the game. If they build an item with a stat that's 100% useless to them, they're going to avoid those items *unless* they have a specific perk that outweighs that cost. A manaless mage isn't going to build Morellonomicon *unless* there's a Mundo (or what have you). --- If you put Mana on a manaless champion, they're going to need Mana (unless they're Draaaaaaaaven), which means they'll *actually be looking through Mana items.* Instead of disregarding an entire section of items because of the wasted stat, they now ***need that stat,*** which makes the other options much more attractive. They *can* but they don't want to right now. Give them Mana, and it will happen instantly.
: My only issue with resourceless spamy champions is they actually never run oom, they keep it up forever and for a aman using champion to keep up you run oom pretty fast. These champion don't have any downtime to what they are doing giving them inherently a massive early game advantage. Which would be ok if they didn't scale so hard and gain massive power spikes so easily and therefore snowball really easy. Looking at the {{champion:92}}'s and {{champion:157}}'s here. Get some ad as Riven or in Yasuo case crit/as and you gain a ton of power immediately the build paths to their items are also much smoother with them having many {{item:1036}} {{item:1051}} {{item:1042}} as components sot hey can always buy more power on each back. This bothers me a bit since it means there isn't really any downside to being Resourceless in any way. And lets not forget some of the other kit advantages like access to a lot of mobility and defensive tools like shields aswell as cc. If they didn't scale so fast due to limited needed stats this would be less of a problem too, giving them mana would also solve this issue due to them needing an extra stat as well as a resource to manage which would be like an extra weakness because ill management would leave them oom. Though i don't think giving them mana would be a good idea, i do not want to see muramana Yasuo period. anyway the point still stands, they scale too easy by only needing 1 stat to get rolling and 2 to snowball which are. provided often by a singular item which on its own wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have such a big advantage in the early game. Another solution would be to cut down on their late game power which i think would be preferable since it could be done. with simple number tweaks too. Less scaling on their defense and cutting down on some of their potential late game damage would already solve this. Still leaves their potent early game, snowball potential and kits intact but allows more counter options by playing safe and stalling. TLDR: I get why people want these champions to have mana since it would solve some of the symptoms but i don't think this is a good idea since it doesn't get to the heart of the issue. Having no resource gives these champions a big advantage early game and also makes it easier to snowball by having less stats needed to build. This is fine as a strength but these champions currently also give up nothing for this in their kit nor in late game power.
Well, the thing is, they do pay for it in the long run. It's just *really* hard to tell if they have a significant lead on you. Kind of like when Renekton's level 9 while you're still level 6. Their late-game effectiveness pretty much relies on snowballing, because they're not as much of a threat if they don't have that lead. Riven just falls behind if she doesn't get ahead, and Yasuo, while still having a couple tricks late-game, gets knocked over by a stiff breeze if you sneak anything past his wall. Or just get him away from his wall entirely. There's a difference between being *weaker* late-game and being *worthless* late-game.
: I mean, nothing is stopping her from building it now, hell ER PD IE is a pretty decent build except no lifesteal. Riven's abilities don't crit.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not *encourage* Crit Riven in the first place. There's nothing *stopping* her, but there's also nothing *encouraging* her to build it. Much like how she *can* build Sheen/Trinity/Iceborn, the main thing keeping it off the mind is the fact that *they don't need Mana.* If Riven needed Mana, she would look through options for Mana items that fit for her playstyle.
Not xPeke (EUW)
: Because Junglers never blame laners for losing lane right?
We mostly communicate in a language most people are still learning. They've taken to calling it...pinging. It works better than the enter key, if someone else understands it.
: No mana = endless spam with less management It doesn't mean you can't build mana items (except seraph and muramasa which take power from your current mana pool), you can always build a morello on akali. you can always build a trinity force on yasuo (WAIT THAT HAPPENS ALREADY -> to prove you that the first thing you listed is nothing else but your own misconception) Now, does this mean when you give the champion mana it will require buffs? yes in most cases. Even tho I hate manaless champions, they are "sort of balanced" so are their abilities in context with the fact that they use no mana. So, when you slap a mana bar on them, their win ratio and performance will have a small decay. Does this mean it will be a need for major buffs? most likely not, but in some cases buffs would be required. That's all.
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYGgFMRT,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-09-17T10:08:51.183+0000) > > No mana = endless spam with less management > It doesn&#x27;t mean you can&#x27;t build mana items (except seraph and muramasa which take power from your current mana pool), you can always build a morello on akali. you can always build a trinity force on yasuo (WAIT THAT HAPPENS ALREADY -&gt; to prove you that the first thing you listed is nothing else but your own misconception) There's a difference people *always* overlook, between having the ability to do something and *making that option appealing.* In this case, yes you can name a handful of specific cases where a manaless champion would build an item that has mana on it. But it doesn't *consistently* happen, because those champions don't need Mana. They tend to go for items that are as efficient as they can get. Most bang for your buck. And, *normally,* not using a stat at all means the item is going to be less efficient than other options. But, like almost all rules, there are exceptions.
: the OP just mad because they're the manaless champion getting ganked! ...yes, a SUPPORT joke. #Imfuckednow #nomana
No, I just play a manaless champion that isn't a popular complaint target. {{champion:102}}
Xonra (NA)
: Yes, worst shield that you get for free (literally for free) for moving, as it is just tacked onto his passive that is double crit. I'm pretty sure there are worse...seeing as it is free for moving around. Unless your mouse breaks or you go afk, you are going to be moving around.
No, objectively speaking, other shields end up immediately more useful. They last longer than 1 second, which means that you can time it to block as much damage as possible, instead of "Oh, Swain ticked me with his bird once, guess I have no universal defense mechanism now." Not to mention most of them are going to be *numerically* more powerful than his until maybe around level 15. Until level 11, it doesn't even block 200 damage *if someone were dumb enough to throw that much damage at his shield in the first place.*
Nymzo (NA)
: I don't have a problem with the extra dmg that their ''empower'' abilities bring, it's the utility that they bring that is annoying to deal with.
They don't exactly have much utility. Renekton almost has to choose between shredding Armor or getting an acceptable length stun, and Rengar has a snare...and some vision tricks with his very-long-cooldown ult that isn't affected by Ferocity anyway.
: 100 - 510 is a lot more free scaling than what Vi and Poppy get. Poppy can end up with little over 625 shielding at full build, and Vi's isn't even worth mentioning at that point. Yasuo doesn't have to do anything to proc it, and it's easily back up within 10 to 6 seconds, which is easily circumvented just by using his ult. Comparing their shields alone, there's no reason to think that Yasuo's is inferior. Then if you were to consider the rest of their kits, Poppy will build up huge resistances that make that shield much more effective, but you also have to consider that Yasuo can 100% nullify any projectile.
> [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XxWgL2jk,comment-id=00000001000000000000000400000000,timestamp=2016-09-17T03:09:56.111+0000) > > 100 - 510 is a lot more free scaling than what Vi and Poppy get. Anybody tell you that you get less than 200 until level 11? > Poppy can end up with little over 625 shielding at full build, and Vi&#x27;s isn&#x27;t even worth mentioning at that point. Both of them still have significantly lower cooldowns *and* longer durations on their shields. > Yasuo doesn&#x27;t have to do anything to proc it, and it&#x27;s easily back up within 10 to 6 seconds, which is easily circumvented just by using his ult. It takes 4600 units of distance to get 100% flow post-11. He would need 460 MS to have it at 10 seconds in constant motion, *slightly* reduced per E cast. And most Yasuo players don't stack up enough for 460 MS. Yes, his ultimate can refresh his shield once per 30 seconds. Makes up for not having any other means of rapidly recharging it. > Comparing their shields alone, there&#x27;s no reason to think that Yasuo&#x27;s is inferior. > Then if you were to consider the rest of their kits, Poppy will build up huge resistances that make that shield much more effective, but you also have to consider that Yasuo can 100% nullify any projectile. Projectiles legitimately make up *less than half of League of Legends attacks, spells and abilities.* I counted by hand. You can do a re-count if you want. And I'm glad you pointed out that Vi and Poppy build resistances to make their shields even more superlatively effective compared to Yasuo's. Because 500 health with 80 Armor does a lot less than 350 health with 200 Armor. Even post-Whisper and Yas ult, between base and what little Bonus armor is still affecting it, their shields come out on top. Because of how the %s stack, you leave a little more than 20% of Bonus Armor unaffected.
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JustMyBassCannon

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