: I think Akali's off-putting hair should symbolize that she is working with program
Check program pykes special interactions with an akali.
: Who’s your guilty pleasure champ?
: What do you consider a good winrate?
50%+ in match MMR averages of Diamond or higher.
: The problem I have is that MMR makes it difficult to climb without luck. Your MMR is there to match you players of equal skill, which is the problem. You can't climb if you're going even (evenly matched).. So if you start an account and get placed silver. You have a high MMR, how are you supposed to climb? You can't, at least not without luck. That's the problem.
> "So if you start an account and get placed silver. You have a high MMR" You don't, starting MMR tends to represent 50% marker of the games population. So its not really high MMR. Your not ment to climb in that situation. If your starting skill is equal or worse then the arbitrary starting value your not expected to move upwards. Why should you be winning more then you lose if your not better then the majority of the players your matched with? Edit. Misread your comment. Fixing response to be accurate to your comment. My bad. Erased a incorrect paragraph. "The problem I have is that MMR makes it difficult to climb without luck." Not really? Skill gaps between players are a viaiable thing, players who consistently make bad plays sink and people who are better will traditionaly outperform the average they are outperforming. So the system will get a good grasp on players skill ranges once it has enough results with context on average level of skill for opponents. If after 300 games your not consistently outperforming silver that's more then enough to try and determine a mean range of performance for the player. And if that ever changes and they start doing better? Because it self corrects they would start to climb in response to changing the results of their expected performance.
Xavanic (NA)
: I really hate the meta
Sounds like you hate the culture. Cant say I blame you. Players seem to think they need all 4 teammates to be better then all the enemy players. I don't know Why the fk people assume everbody on their team is gonna be the better player. Shame that a majority of folks never learned how to play from behind or work as a team.
: > [{quoted}](name=Subdue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J72VH5zg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-15T22:56:16.650+0000) > > All this would accomplish would be to make games miserable for Silver players and below, as they get stomped hard every single game where they end up with a Plat+ player in it. People have done the experiments already. Heck, climbing the ladder consistently is repeatable to the point where there are people who MAKE MONEY doing it for other people. yeah, for a week.
For as long as it takes to calibrate the entire ladder. Its not like 100% of the games player base is going to be active in any given week. We still are seeing impact on some players from issues made by riot mishandling their Positional Que and New Divisions and that's been ongoing all season.
CDang (NA)
: MMR And LP Gain
This is my opinion built of observation and learning about MMR. I have a Base assumption that riots Titles are designed to represent a static MMR range for low uncertainty accounts. Similar to the way many other companys and orginsiations desige their titles. Chess being one that influcanced my oppenion here strongly. A follow up assumption i have made is that your LP gains are in relation to the gap between your assigned MMR and assigned Title to move your title into the direction your MMR is located. This is just elaborating on what is a commonly accepted assumption for how Riots system works. You can instead see systems where Population can be used via a percentile system but as player population is so volatile that imo makes for a terrible metric if you wanted your Titles to represent skill in relation to your MM. It also does not overlap or interact with Elo systems as well as a static Title system does. Chess, for example has Titles like Grandmaster for players over X Elo points. Because MMR is W/L in relation to who your playing, if you up your WR at your current MMR to be a more dramatically high # you will add a gap between your MMR and Title to the point it will bump up your LP gains. Unless it gets to a point where K factor has been lowered so much that your Lp gains and MMR gains are identical values. Then your unable to build a MMR to Title gap unless you fail lots of promos via dodging or other behaviors to artificially gap your MMR and LP. MMR and Elo systems ever lock you down, at no point does it say This is forever your rating. Its meant to be a range, its meant to adapt to new information, its for all intents a self correcting system. That they can be grindy is really the worst thing you can say about it.
: The matchmaking elephant room.
If your a programmer then you should be aware that Elo and MMR systems have existed for ages and are proven to function. They are and have been peer reviewed. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/trueskilltm-a-bayesian-skill-rating-system/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/ if you would like to study one of the most commonly used MMR systems. Because MM pulls from a Range rather then the entirety of the player base you do see it become more accurate with data then rather then less. The main metrics are, whats your W to L in direct relation to the assumed level of skill for players in your range. You further can modify the MM algorithm to put favoritism on "experience" Via attempting to create games with K factors at similar values and ranges. The RNG nature does not defeated core mathematical principles, look at vegas if you want an example from American culture for the impact Math makes VS luck. Now. You do have some good comments spread in this post. You also seem to care and want to actively fix problems which is awesome. One that deserves highlighting. Player mentality being a massive impact on match quality. Personally, I lean to a Guild/Clan system with higher requirements then Solo. This removes many issues of teammate behaviors because punishment/moderation tools are given to the leadership position players. Players can subjectively decided if some one is griefeing the group or just lacks maturity required to be a functional teammate in a team game. Players can dip out on a group they feel is lead by idiots. Subjective measurements on toxic behaviors tend to be more accurate or perceived as more accurate then automated attempts due to the fairly binary nature of automated programs. The ability to treat a consistent Rooster as a singular value dramatically lowers the # of calibration games for a reasonably accurate MMR range resulting is less 1 sided mismatches.
coreym11 (NA)
: Why can't I play lethality jinx mid?
Like I and many other mentioned last time you made a post involving your jinx mid. Look, You can do it. You just cant expect to make a very high impact to far on the ladder. Its just gonna remove a lot of your personal agency on game outcomes. Zap is easy to dodge. So your banking on Bad enemys to get off Zap harassment. Alternatively, you have to reactively cast it in response to teammates CC, your banking now on Teamamtes for set up. Rather then banking on your ability to make personal impact of using something reliable. Zap is not reliable due to the inherent delay and broadcast. Its the core ability for your build. Best case usage for Q is not lethality because Autos scale far better with AS and crit for DPS. E is magic damage with no AD scaling. R requires distance as well as enemy HP to be lowered. Lethality might amp it but given that its literally an execute its not overly good synergy. So you rely on good teammates, or bad enemys. So... You win games youd win playing basically anything because you had a good team or shit enemys… so your pick is basically irrelevant on match outcomes. To reliably climb you need to play things that make impact, things you can win or change match outcomes with Vs good enemys and with Bad teammates. No one will stop you. Everybody saying the build is bad is not trying to be a dick or claim your deadweight. Its just a flawed concept, the gains from doing it could be easily replicated with several better options, who not only accomplish the same end result of low CD poke but do it in AOE and have higher synergy with the rest of their kit. W is one of the more unreliable poke abilities in the game. Stops on 1 target so its easy to minion block. Long delay so its easy to dodge, Telegraphed. The level of skill required to play around it is fairly low so you can only abuse players up to a point then your left floundering.
: league match making
Becuase if it cares about WR for teams that's rigging games. If your a 60% player, to balance team avrages out that means it gives you sub 50% players. So the better you do the worse your teammates. If you bad, it compensates by giving you higher % teammates. That's "forced 50%" Its actively trying to rig match results prior to the game. How MMR works is moving players in response to their win% + Who they play. So some one who started after the soft reset at a higher MMR value whos been losing wr is sinking down the ladder. Some one who started lower and is moving has to have positive wr. At some point these accounts overlap in MMR value ranges that MM pulls from. The context of who your playing matters far more then just WR as a stand alone metric. I don't lose SSB to a few friends because they are god awfull at the game. I have never won Tournament that's hosted to the public and rarely even placed top 10. Just saying I don't even know you man but if you asked me who would win a fight, FrancoTheHating Vs a newborn kitten. Well my money would be on you. But if ya replaced the kitten with a Top Tier MMA fighter... well my money is then gonna be on them. If you had 15 fights vs kittens then 1 fight vs MMA dude you end up with a very high WR... but what generated it was skill gaps rather then it being an accurate reflection of how good a fighter you are. MMR moves folks in response to their WR and expectations for what it looks like. The concept is Class intervals, Players at a gap of skill measured by X points are expected to result in Y%. When this does not match, the system adjusts its points for the accounts to reflect that difference in expectations to results. So lets give an example. Expectation would be 1200 Players lose 3 out of 4 games to 1400 players. If that 1200 player is not maintaining that expectation their points shift to reflect it. 1400 v 1400 would be 1 to 1. So if they averaged 50% WR vs 1400 then they become 1400 themselves. If its worse they go down till their points meet the expectation for the % gaps. Better they climb higher. Its always looking to correct and adjust.
OKIDJ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pxerkza,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rGLRWYbu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-14T02:15:48.836+0000) > > https://i.imgur.com/vGeGV0G.jpg > > yup matchmaking is awesome > now get better Did you happen to see what Elise and Gnar were building, or are you going to ignore that? Or you are going to ignore that three of my team mates besides Lux gave up? I see, you think that it is simply my fault I can't carry or that I want to sit in a 35 - 40 minute game.
It takes but a moment to look into players outside of your single game experience with them. WTF is MM supposed to do for {{champion:60}} ? She has a history of doing 4-10 games on the spider per year and Is consistently higher loss then W. How does MM know shes going to pick one of the champions she plays but the one she plays consistently worse then her main champions? How does it prevent a players arbitrary decision? Requiring X mastery or Y games played just adds time investment to play things in ranked and does not remotely imply some ones not gonna be deadweight with their pick. Gnars build is not his usual one, should be kind of clear he was having issues with {{champion:223}}. Take a look, you don't see him running {{item:3153}} as core.
: new silver is basically old gold no it's not, just silver 2+ maybe
Eh Depends on if Riot widened the Gap for what ranges their Tier and division represent. Last year B5 to C. You could have 27 different titles. This season I4 to C. You can have 27 titles. 5+5+5+5+5+1+1. Vs 4+4+4+4+4+4+1+1+1. 25+2 V 24+3. 27 V 27. Overlap starting at the bottom range with the assumption that riot did not widen or shrink the MMR range a tier is ment to represent and you end up seeing this. Iron 4-1 = B 5-2. Bronze 4-1 = B1-S3. Silver4-1 = S2-G4. Gold 4-1 = G3-p5. Plat 4-1= Plat 4-1. Diamond 4-1 = D5-D2. Gm= D1. M=M. C=C. So... about 50% of new silver divisions might be old Gold MMR depending on how much riot changed their Tier to MMR range values.
Exoleres (NA)
: Taking away a win is a punishment and is easily abused. Neutralizing a loss isn't reward or punishment, it just undoes the last work of a griefing account. Edit; And there's a way simpler explanation. Human nature is to rage when already losing. There are many cases where a teammate gets so trashed by the enemy they rage in a way that leads to a suspension. Winning is how the game is intended to be played, so that alone makes a huge difference in what is 'deserved.'
I may have made a mistake in assuming your wanting mmr to be forgiven as well as LP. Do you just want lp forgiveness or both? One impacts rating inflation the other does not so my bad if I assumed incorrectly. I don't quite agree that you can have a draw and win as a match result. I feel that the concept of undeserved losses is interchange able with undeserved wins. I also have a strong bias that you just can't trust the lol community with forgivness because far to many of them will be opportunistic in attempting to exploit it. As you pointed out, losing can bring out an ugly side in some people. I dont agree its human nature so much as some folks are just sore losers. Sportsmanships less common when being a prick runs zero risk of getting punched in the face.
: Still doesnt explain how I dont even get 21LP back when my MMR was 3 tiers above my current rank. Also when I did my placements, I won every single one.. riot said you would gain a lot of LP(like 50+ per win) but somehow I only managed to get 55LP for my first game and then every other placement match after that was 27LP to 30LP
I'm working a 12 hour shift so I wont be able to do a detailed reply till late or tommrow. I need some details. Did you do placements befor or after riot removed positional ques? Same for your friend. Did you guys play preseason and if so what ranks did yall end preseason at. Do you know what a title (tier and division = title) is made to represent and the common ways to build then? This is stuff I find interesting and the more data I get from players helps me figure out riots system so I am pretty curious what your responses will be and to see if they match my assumption.
: Wow, thanks for explaining everything in detail and sorry for misunderstanding your first comment(s). Regarding rank in team games and elo: Yes, the variables in team game is a mess and since performance doesn't affect MMR, there is this delay in reaching the rank; most of the games I play are 1v1 except Dota 2, so didn't think of 1v1 vs team ratings. But still, like Dota 2 has there can be something like MMR (range)= rank(+tiers)-maybe idk if there is hidden reasons for not having it; mmr is also visible there. Regarding faster queue times instead of fairer games: Well maybe it is a thing for support players, I hardly get queue times greater than 10seconds-I can take snapshots of every single game in this acc and if needed on a smurf acc to show this, as well as why it is unfair especially to a support player. my win/loss greatly depends on adc and my team overall, games in which my team has unfair matchups [especially when it is like silver 1 supp-me(I was silver 1 for many games)+adc-silver 4 or bronze 1 vs silver 2 adc+silver 2 supp] it is like 75% loss. Regarding flaming and gameplay: Though 60 games is a less count and I agree with an increased game count to get an accurate rank for the mmr with the current system, imo it simply becomes demotivating at one point when one has the rating to climb-but just loses because of bad matchmaking. What's more, it is one of the reasons for players to flame as they get stomped and the players(in and around silver, myself included sometimes) write more than "play safe" to ignite them. Frustrated with losing lane, they start wasting time in chat and once it starts, it just grows as many players just don't mute or ignore them. This quickly transforms to inting and funniest thing is they find ways to flame without getting caught, by writing stuff like fck you or fcuk you in place of fu*k you and ofcourse the automated warning/ban system for flaming doesn't work for this and it needs improvement over time. Improving matchmaking is in RIOT's hands and decreasing toxicity is (actually) in players' hands; while we have an option to mute a toxic player and escape from it, we simply don't have an option to escape from the bad matchmaking. Imo after a point, it feels more of a chore than an enjoyment as a player plays good, has good mmr-but needs to play that extra 40-50 games to reach to his rank(by looking at Lp gain/loss). And this is what makes the players to go for boosting services (which ruins evreything big time), as they don't have to play more games or just buy an account with the rank they desire (high elo players buying low elo accounts is even worse than low elo player buying high elo account).
> Wow, thanks for explaining everything in detail and sorry for misunderstanding your first comment(s). No problem. I typicaly consider it my fault when misunderstandings happen. > so didn't think of 1v1 vs team ratings Don't trip it. That's pretty common. Another common error that gets made is from the fact that Elo systems for 1v1 tend to be set as Zero sum. MMR systems are not because uncertainty needs to be tracked on a player to player biases. Its a common error to make mistakes when comparing the two systems. Now you can treat a team as 1v1 for an Elo system, but the precondition is that the team has a set rooster of players. When its RNG teamamtes they need individual tracking so individual probability expectations can be made to use for MM. > But still, like Dota 2 has there can be something like MMR (range)= rank(+tiers)-maybe idk if there is hidden reasons for not having it; mmr is also visible there. Basically, it was more popular with players. The Tier division thing caught on really fast and its kinda standard in most games now even with MM systems that don't inherently use MMR or Elo. [ Month for month ranked participation increased as much as 2x over the same time periods last year while dodge rates dropped to about half. The number of leavers / afks in these games also remained well below most other queues. In other words the number of new ranked players and existing players who participate in ranked games is greater than ever before and the quality of the games improved. Ultimately we think this is the best measure of how successful a game type is](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3712300&page=114#post40484597) The above is 2013. Also more Info from Devs 2018. [Using MMR as the sole mark of achievement in League punishes half of the playerbase as their MMR will decline over the course of the season, which sucks because most of them are gradually getting better at the game—but so is everyone else around them. Ranked tiers also provide contextual progression and status. Knowing you’re “a Gold player” as opposed to “a 1650 MMR player” or “120,353 on the server” gives you clearer targets to work towards. Moving from 1595 to 1600 MMR is probably not that compelling, but promoting from Silver I to Gold V should give you the knowledge that you’re truly improving. The Leagues system also gives you a bit of protection from losing a bunch of games in a row and having your MMR plummet as a result.](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/02/dev-matchmaking-real-talk/) Personally I like Visible MMR scores, but the exact Value showing up helps folks figure out what K factor slowdown is set to which gives Smurfs and Trolls more opportunity to game the system. > Well maybe it is a thing for support players, I hardly get queue times greater than 10seconds-I can take snapshots of every single game in this acc and if needed on a smurf acc to show this, as well as why it is unfair especially to a support player No need, I am also a support main. I don't quite agree with how much agency your giving ADCs, but I also tend to spend a good amount of time working on trying to get other roles up to par so most the ranked season when I do start to grind my overall position is lower then what I usualy can achieve making it a bit lopsided for my climb. > especially when it is like silver 1 supp-me(I was silver 1 for many games)+adc-silver 4 or bronze 1 vs silver 2 adc+silver 2 supp] it is like 75% loss. You might find this interesting. Assuming class interval (200 points for Elo in chess with his OG system.) is a full Rank and using Arpad Elos Probability table for logistical distribution. His odds to win for that skill gap at low uncertianty are 76% to 24% for the higher rated player. So pretty much if your similar skill to the enemy support and your ADC is a full Rank lower then the enemy adc you actually do expect to see that number you listed of 3 to 1 odds. There is a reason I am vocally opposed to Duoing being left alone as Tiers and divisions, it needs to be off the same class interval MM considers "fair" To lower mismatched games. > we simply don't have an option to escape from the bad matchmaking Yea. But MM cant do anything about player behaviors. Even 10% toxic playerbase is a massive amount. As the gameplay is PvP gameplay is massively impacted by Players. 1 in 10 players being toxic, shows up almost every game due to the fact there are 10 players every match. Theres only so much that can be done in advanced as you cant accurately predict what some one is gonna do prior to the match being played, and at that point its to late. That's why I am always looking to get players to consider the importance of player behavior systems and the high value that removing toxic asshats from the game provides. MMR is a bit rough for your average player, but its honestly rough for any one stuck at any MMR. The average player just ends up stuck basicaly right from the get go and does not feel good about it. Knowing that improving results in an ability to climb takes the edge off but trying to convince people to set aside their personal observation and experience Even when your providing the math, is difficult. Like you said, at times its honestly demotivating, which lowers effort, which lowers impact, which keeps folks stuck or turns some players toxic. Now.. Statistics to impact players for variables like damage cc kda etc. Those have some issues but this post is pretty long so unless your actively curious why a stat system fails harder for MM over a Elo derivative ima wrap this conversation up. Thanks for your time and I hope ya found it helpful.
: 8 games in a row and still no rankup?
https://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/euw1/241617938 2 examples on how to climb. Your breaking even at 50% when your MMR is above your Assigned Tier. Or you have to win more then you lose. Neither look like it applies to you currently.
: Qyiana and bot lane water fall
"Fountains" also are not considered water.
: His na is FA Inspire
Low # of games = Higher K factor = Bigger MMR changes per match. Due to Weight on early matches. K is the variable used in Elo systems to represent system uncertainty. Some one like your friend who has under 40 games is considered higher uncertainty them a player like yourself sitting at 210 matches. Also related to MMR. Checking the average of games it looks like your friend is playing at or higher then his currently assigned Tier, where as you tend to play At or Below your assigned tier. Far as I know there are ways two ways to build tiers. One is a leaderboard tied directly to Population, which is kind of terrible as inactivity will sink players. The other off MMR ranges, which only has accuracy for low uncertainty accounts.
: Question about evelynn. (Not ranting)
First Q applys a debuff in addition to its damage. whiffing the first Q results in a loss of "55/90/125/160/195 with 105% Ap scaling." Resulting in a best case of the 3 mini Q dealing "75 / 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 (+ 90% AP)" She loses over Half the damage of the ability when she whiffs it.
Exoleres (NA)
: Untrue and irrelevant.
Oh? if 4 players don't deserve to lose because of 1 toxic behavior. Why did the other players deserve to win because of the toxic behavior. Why do you feel there is no equivalence in this statement. If these players did not deserve a lose because of this player, those players do not deserve to win because of this player? Plus... MMR is what matters. LP is reactive to MMR gains. MM uses MMR not LP.
: LP gain and MMR
I am pretty good with MMR systems. Provide me your friends Op.GG and I will take a look.
Exoleres (NA)
: Why do we lose LP for games where a teammate is subsequently banned for griefing/inting/AFKing?
Becuase the flip side is you get zero lp for winning vs some one who does that behavior.
: Can the cannon have goggly eyes?
Looks like the thread got deleted. Wanted to say, you are correct. Urgot does have an indicator on his first cast. Thanks for correcting me, my bad.
: I queue up for top/support and game put me in jungle 2 times recently.
https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/238309303 Your gonna need to post on your main. I am disinclined to take Statements at face value unless I can see it represented. Also Riots still doing some fuckery with Positional MM. -shrugs- I just don't think the player base can support Positional MM due to how many players are extremely limited in their picks. Also you should que for Support/Mid to try and load the weight into support.
: Why do people defend autofill?
Its not defended because we like it but because many players experienced the game prior to position roles or play other games that force you to fill via systems like Pick order. Its defended because folks enjoy Role selection as a feature and understand that we don't have an infinite number of players at any given moment. Back in earlier seasons and in many other games. Only being able to do 1 thing makes people treat you as under skilled because Your a fucking handicap when you don't get the thing you do. Autofill is honestly really easy to disable, all it requires is for a player to learn 1-2 supports. Que for that play a game enjoy protection, never be a handicap because your abruptly in jungle or top or what ever role your worst at. From a Dev standpoint, long que times kill games. Position ques are nice for players, they get to enjoy what they like more often. There has to be a balance for this so MM can build games. Ill make a stab at an autofill QOL change. Help out if you want. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/submit
Rioter Comments
: So basically the game has lost players?
Doesn't matter what the player population size is when role population is low. MM has an easier time with 50k players with 10k queing for each role then it does with 5 billion when only 2 dudes want to jungle. Dramatic and unrealistic numbers but its about illustrating the point. There are constant opinions on what the best role to climb is. A common belief is you have to be a hard carry. This creates an issue with role popularity.
: [@RIOT] too many open questions regarding Arcade pass
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/riot-games/editorial/learn-more-arcade-2019 I believe there is no hard cap for how many tokens you can earn apart from the obvious time constraint of #games you can play in a day. I do not see any information that implys there is a cap for daily gains, I might be wrong. Other then that. 4% chance to drop the Arcade Jackpot Jackpot contains 3 legacy skin shards (one guaranteed 975+) and guaranteed 1520 Orange Essence
: Explain my This to me please (Mmr)
If riot did not have a massive demotion protection your rank would be bronze right now. You have more losses then wins, the match average your MMR puts you in is b3-b2. LP gains slant to favor the direction a Gap shows between assigned Rank and current MMR.
: > [{quoted}](name=GonahtanuGepardi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPiO3Mxq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-11T18:40:47.621+0000) > > This is ONLY to get better faster and to climb faster. However, if you ARE a high elo player, you should know how to play multiple champions. Every high elo player knows that and OTP's are generally frowned upon. Learning other champions is important, but you shouldn't be forced to learn other roles if you don't want to. League is a very complicated and nuanced game. But when you get queued against someone who is two divisions higher than you and mains their role when you're forced into an off-role, you're basically just going to lose the game because of RNG before it even starts. Not everyone has 10 hours a day to play the game and learn every part of every role. Someone who normally plays top lane tanks isn't going to understand how to play and position an ADC. > > The same people that came up with role selection. It's 100% necessary to have to have tolerable queue times. If autofill hadn't been implemented back then, league would very likely be a dead game. 1 hour queue times could be tolerable for a little while but after some time, people would get tired of wasting their time in queues and quit. I've had plenty of games where everyone gets their role, and the queue time wasn't more than 7 or 8 minutes. Back when they had the system for picking your champion ahead of time, the max time to get into a game was around 15 minutes, if that. I don't know where you're getting hour long queue times in lower elos. There's millions of silver players, there's not millions of D1 players. > > Better get comfortable then. It's not riot's fault you aren't good at the game. I'm decent at the game, actually. I've been playing since season 3. However, I don't enjoy bot lane. I never have. Therefore, when I get into that role because I'm forced to, I have a tough time. I'm not used to CSing with an ADC. I'm not used to positioning an ADC. I'm not used to synchronizing with a support. What's even worse is the people who get filled into jungle. Jungle is an important role, but also arguably the hardest one to play, since every game is different. Learning jungle routes, how to gank, where to gank, what to do when you have to, how to secure objectives, how to farm and stay alive, how to get around normal ward paths, there's just so much that you can't just force a player who isn't trying to learn that role and doesn't want to to play that role. > > If only it was only 5 minutes. 5 mins is a normal queue time in diamond. Without autofill, it would easily be 20-60 minutes. Do you understand what that does to the game? people in higher elo would just play on their smurfs, killing any high level competition from existence. People in the lowest elos would have similar queue times and they wouldn't bother playing the game at that point. See my point made above about the longest queue times for the old system where you picked a role and champion being about 15-30 minutes max. And that was without the secondary role selection, or the fill option. > > It's fair because their reports do absolutely nothing. Reports don't do anything themselves. When someone reports a player, the automated system then checks that player and if he broke any rules. If he did break rules, he gets punished. If he didn't break any rules, the report is thrown into the trash can. Agreed, but it still feels like shit, and can impact your overall honor rating. > > Believe it or not, your fun doesn't go over the fun of the majority. Yes, but the argument I'm making is it ruins the game for my entire team as well. And if the enemy team is just stomping us, it's probably less fun for them too. > > Or you could learn other roles (like you actually should) so you wouldn't hinder your team and we can keep the short queue times. This game has always been about learning every role. This isn't a single player game and learning just your own role is not enough and will not make you good. Again, not everyone has 100s of hours to pour into the game to learn every single role because they might just get dropped into something they don't want to play. Imagine if that existed in other competitive games? Imagine if you were playing a fighting game, and they said "Okay, so a lot of people are playing your character of choice right now, so we decided you're going to play someone else, and if you were REALLY good at the game, you'd know how to play them too." Or Call of Duty if it was like "We know you really like that gun, but in order to get into a game faster, we decided you're going to use a sniper now. If you were good at FPS games, you'd just adapt your playstyle and get used to it." It makes no sense.
Just to be clear. People spend YEARS on a game like Chess gaining and growing their knowledge of the game. Years... not hours. Years. Some people dedicate their entire lives to games and sports. Feel free to be a casual player. Dodge any time your filled if you want. Or stick to normals. You want to be in a competitive environment and not play competitively? Then I don't know what result you expect other then being a weaker competitor. Knowledge of the game is skill of the game. not understanding the basics of other roles makes you a weaker player. Be an OTP if you want. Just dodge lobbies if your filled or your main is banned/picked. Problem solved. Fighter games allow for mirrored fighters. This conversation is about knowledge and tool sets. Your OTP with low knowledge in a fighter Is some one with 0 knowledge of other fighters combos and move sets. They basically just grinded away in practice vs a dummy or low level AI. This kind of player gets demolished by some one who knows the game better because if you don't understand the move sets or combos your defense game sucks. you don't know what to block or where to block. you cant take advantage of move lag, you don't have a good grasp on ranges. You are basically a newbie and only will ever be good at trashing button mashers. Your not a competitive player. Your better then some one with 0 knowledge but being completely ignorant of what toolsets others have makes you a weaker player in fighters. Its more like halo then COD. Some one snagged the sniper before you and your now deadweight to your team because you cant use any other guns. Also... because you don't want to invest your time to learn. You also don't know the maps at all. Spawns for items. Your just running around hoping you can kill some one you see first. You can do this and have fun. Your not gonna be that great of a player if you cant use your starting gun and don't know maps. Your a weaker player for this. You have to invest time to get better. if you don't, your not gonna ever be that good. Your metaphors sucked dude. Try again and stop excusing halfassing the game. Its fine to play for fun. If you want to play competitively for fun... don't whine that your being punished for not investing the time or effort into getting better. Your owed nothing.
: >First off, and many high elo players will agree, it is best to learn maybe 1 or 2 champions in the game, refine them, and get good at using those champions exclusively. This is ONLY to get better faster and to climb faster. However, if you ARE a high elo player, you should know how to play multiple champions. Every high elo player knows that and OTP's are generally frowned upon. >So, who the fuck came up with Autofill? The same people that came up with role selection. It's 100% necessary to have to have tolerable queue times. If autofill hadn't been implemented back then, league would very likely be a dead game. 1 hour queue times could be tolerable for a little while but after some time, people would get tired of wasting their time in queues and quit. >Why FORCE someone to play a role they're not comfortable in? Better get comfortable then. It's not riot's fault you aren't good at the game. >I get that queue times are sometimes longer because some roles are more popular than others. That's fine. 5 minutes longer in queue isn't going to kill anyone. If only it was only 5 minutes. 5 mins is a normal queue time in diamond. Without autofill, it would easily be 20-60 minutes. Do you understand what that does to the game? people in higher elo would just play on their smurfs, killing any high level competition from existence. People in the lowest elos would have similar queue times and they wouldn't bother playing the game at that point. >But I can still get reported because my team is saying I'm intentionally feeding because I don't have the confidence or know-how to play a role I was forced to play. How is that fair? How is that fun? Who thought it was a good idea? It's fair because their reports do absolutely nothing. Reports don't do anything themselves. When someone reports a player, the automated system then checks that player and if he broke any rules. If he did break rules, he gets punished. If he didn't break any rules, the report is thrown into the trash can. >Autofill boils down to "Hey, other people don't want to wait in queue, so you have to spend 40 minutes suffering now. Believe it or not, your fun doesn't go over the fun of the majority. >If people don't like the longer queue times, they could learn a less popular role Or you could learn other roles (like you actually should) so you wouldn't hinder your team and we can keep the short queue times. This game has always been about learning every role. This isn't a single player game and learning just your own role is not enough and will not make you good.
^. you get it.{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} Role selection is good. having 4 mid or I feed mains on your team in season 1 sucked. Pick order sucked. Devs DO need to care about ques. Knowledge is power. Power is skill. Play chess when you don't know how some of the pieces can move? your going to get your ass handed to you by the people who know how to play the game. Once upon a time the expectation was you should be able to play 1 champion in every role if you wanted to be good at the game. To bad folks got lazy with role selection and don't mind being instant losses for teammates on their off roles. You get this. Props dude.
: The problem is that even after 60 games,a player isn't in the rank he is supposed to be. Check other games which uses elo rating to see whether the players reach their rank faster than this or not. I have played chess and multiplayer games where this is used and few mins games, with ratings being transparent and mostly mmr/elo rating directly translates to rank. Only in LoL i find that players are placed in ranks way below their rating and even after 100 games one can be in this situation; did the player improve with every game, to have such a situation? Skipping promos or skipping a division is good enough for a reward, but after that matchmaking screws up things and makes the climb slower. Changing K value is one way and together with it there should be hard penalties for smurfs and better smurf detection; changing matchmaking is another way. Yes, for duo it is worse than the solo and my point is entire thing should be fixed. tbh, they have come up with the auto ban system for toxicity and so there is no need to concern about it. Because of players understanding that they're still not in the rank their rating is, they are forced to play more games to climb and at one point it becomes simply frustrating and not fun to play. Worst part is above this, matchmaking is inclined more towards giving games faster to have low queue times and makes many games unfair; this adds up to the number of games to be played while reducing the fun even more.
>The problem is that even after 60 games,a player isn't in the rank he is supposed to be Again. 60 games is nothing. Chess is 1v1. Less variables. Accuracy requires a lower # of games. As I own Arpad Elos book on the topic I can happily share his system expectations for correctly placing a player to the right class interval with you. 25 games = 92%. 30=95% 60G=99% 100 = 99.9% Now lets move on to MMR. Microsoft publishes their TrueSkill system and its a commonly used MMR system so I tend to use it for my discussions about MMR. 2 Teams/4 Players Per Team 46 2 Teams/8 Players Per Team 91 ok.. That's not bad right? Oh... wait "The actual number of games per gamer can be up to three times higher depending on several factors" So we can make it into a Range then. 2 Teams/4 Players Per Team 46-138 2 Teams/8 Players Per Team 91-273 Pretty clear that more players = more time to correctly locate the appropriate class interval for a player. Even if we used the 4v4 model then its clear that the OP sitting at 62 games is well with in the correct range for class interval calibration. Feel free to request any game you play with a MM system if you want me to take a look at what those devs do and what their system expectations are. If the publish the information then I tend to be pretty good at finding it. Lets throw in the context of riots LP system, they are seeing slanted gains due to account MMR not reflecting the assigned Title. "30 lp and lose 12" So win loss win loss pattern would result in net positive of 18 LP every 2 games. resulting in his MMR and Rank collapsing into the correct representation. The advantage of LP system is you can have more dramatic MMR gains early on to reduce how long accounts spend time mismatched in the incorrect class intervals that you can not do with a "purist" Elo/MMR system. The down side is that inside of the correct interval takes longer to calibrate to high accuracy for titles when some one is in the proper range. As mentioned. Id just have titles locked so that player need to participate in the bare minimum for average expectations of accuracy and completely rework how Riot runs Duo queing. > Worst part is above this, matchmaking is inclined more towards giving games faster to have low queue times and makes many games unfair; this adds up to the number of games to be played while reducing the fun even more. Part of the problem is most players only care whats fun for themselves with no consideration to other players. I also am inclined to agree that I feel riots MM does generate games to rapidly at a cost of quality. I want to be clear that's just an oppenion of mine that I cant prove. > Changing K value is one way and together with it there should be hard penalties for smurfs and better smurf detection; changing matchmaking is another way. Yes, for duo it is worse than the solo and my point is entire thing should be fixed. I hate riots implementation of duoing. It wont break the ladder. It does make mismatched games of low quality. Its left alone because its popular. LP is a system to deal with smurfs/trolls/newbies by allowing higher Weight on early games to have trends of play more rapidly adjust location. Admittedly you can also accomplish this with Provisional matches. Also... despite the fact this is in theory possible with out seeing exact numbers I cant in good faith tell you this is done. Its just theoretically possible. Pub stomping is old AF gamer behavior and typically pretty selfish. Same with Greifing. Its Difficult to manage in PvP games but is a worthwhile attempt. Overall. My personal solution is to encourage full premade teams via Clan/guild systems because a consistent Rooster of players results in a team being a singular entity for the purpose of rating skill. I believe Leauge has the playerbase population to support this kind of system. > tbh, they have come up with the auto ban system for toxicity and so there is no need to concern about it. Nah theres always a reason to be concerned for it. Toxic behaviors more then flameing and running it down. Building player culture is worthwhile and makes the game better. Always be looking to improve and lower toxicity in the games player base is a huge deal. It shows up in games very fast due to population size and the fact there's 10 individuals in each match. More then anything else riot can do, maintaining healthy players maintains healthy gameplay. Gameplay is impacted most by players, more then balance or directional decisions riot makes. How people play the game is the single largest impact on how players experience the game. I think I addressed everything. If you feel I skiped something relevant let me know Via a box quote and I will get back to you. I take the time to educate folks about MMR so they can make reasonable assumptions. 60 games really Is nothing, folks need to be willing to put in 100+ games for a ranked season. Thinking its magic and can accurately place accounts with 0 data just makes frustration in the player base which often results in toxic behaviors. I get being competitive but man I just wish folks could keep in mind a simple fact. This is a game and it should be something you enjoy spending your time on.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xcv4Qrev,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T18:39:52.743+0000) > > Also gonna chime in and point out the issue how riot freely gives titles instantly because its a feel good system for folks to see quick gratification. For most the ladder bottom end Demotions take a MASSIVE mmr loss so its hard to fall out of a Tier. 0 MM impact outside of duoing which riot does weakly (for the same player perception reasons they do Demotion protection so dramatically for divisions.) > > Personally if I wanted to have a system that instilled confidence in players Id require it to have a minimum # of games that it considers to achieve workable accuracy for placement and no title or division would be provided to players. Thing is people are idiots who don't like or want to understand math and would rather see quick rewards. So Riots system is filled with player perception altering systems that don't do much besides make people feel better. Adding. Iron for example is likely a 0 MMR impact attempt to try and manipulate perceptions to get players to make more effort for the mid levels of the ladder. Redistributing the ladder and using soft resets doing this made some really NASTY issues this season. > > Id just let idiots sink and lose rank if they start playing halfassed and kick them from ranked ques if they actively look to throw games to spite teammates /other toxic behaviors. No demotion protection for an entire MMR division that's likely used to set class intervals in riots system. No Gold 4 sitting around at Silver 3 mmr. that dudes instantly silver again the moment he drops out of my probability models range of expectations. > > Probaly a good thing for most folks that I am not a dev and I doubt id be popular with players owing to how blunt I approach things. Consider the effect it'd have on players in a low-impact role and/or the fact that most people play to rank up with a friend or two. It wouldn't be popular because it wouldn't be fun, not because it wouldn't be stroking the ego or something. Their current system is a weird, ineffectual version of a mid-variance system where you're allowed to queue up with a high-MMR player within the same MMR bracket, but your combined MMR will be higher and therfor you'll need to work your ass off to win. The problem is... it uses ranks and divisions, and not MMR for this system. Your friend can have Diamond 2 MMR with a Silver ranking and you can be queued up with him up against Plat 1's and you'll get dumpstered+carried. An alternate system would be to individually take MMR and match you up against people with similar MMR values, 1:1. Your friend is Platinum-MMR? You'll get a Platimum-MMR opponent. Too bad both systems have issues thanks to auto-fill, trolls, ragers, AFKers, etc. I have to ask, Kai, how would you handle outliers like me whom have Gold-tier prowess but are only ever able to get out of Bronze and Silver with the help of someone they can consistently rely on to follow up on their setups, to use the vision they provide, and to take the aid offered? "Oh well, as an outlier, you don't matter" is about as good as the current system because we are all outliers within it.
> The problem is... it uses ranks and divisions, and not MMR for this system. ^ correct. Duoing is something you will see me complain about. I strongly dislike Riots implementation. > Your friend can have Diamond 2 MMR with a Silver ranking and you can be queued up with him up against Plat 1's Incorrect. The system plays catchup. You will not just skip divisions but you skip promos entirely when your MMR to title gap gets to larger. I have tried to abuse it before by dodging promo games in the lobby to keep my rank low. 1. Because I thought it would be funny to have a really low rank compared to the games I get put into to freak teammates and enemies out. 2. Because I abuse duoing to show my friends what its like to play vs higher MMR. A pretty good way to get them to improve. The larger the average skill gap the more dramatic it is when they are outclassed. Also a good way to check how much personal impact I can make on a champion. > I have to ask, Kai, how would you handle outliers like me whom have Gold-tier prowess but are only ever able to get out of Bronze and Silver with the help of someone they can consistently rely on to follow up on their setups, to use the vision they provide, and to take the aid offered? "Oh well, as an outlier, you don't matter" Your not an outlier. You have literally the same tools available to you as any player. The "have to be a hard carry to climb" Is a BS argument. Here is a Q and A from Trueskill for ya. Q: You are saying that the TrueSkill ranking system assumes that the skill of a team is the sum of the skills of its players. I think this model is not appropriate: I am usually playing much better with people from my friends list rather than with random players. Will this assumption lead to incorrect rankings? A: The assumption that the team skill is the sum of the skills of its players is exactly that: an assumption. The TrueSkill ranking system will use the assumption to adopt the skill points of individual players such that the team outcome can be best predicted based on the additive assumptions of the skills. Provided that you and your friends also play team games with other players now and then, the TrueSkill ranking system will assign you a skill belief that is somewhere between the skill when you are playing with your friends and the skill when you are playing as an individual. So, in the worst case, every other game is not with your friends: then you are slightly ranked too high when you play with random team players and slightly ranked too low when you play with your friends. But, if you mostly play with your friends only the system will identify your skill correctly for most of your games. Again.... your not an outlier. You have the exact same access to victory as any other given player. "is about as good as the current system because **we are all outliers** within it." By definition you don't have everything in a system as "outliers" so your misusing the concept if you claim everybody is one. Imo. Keep playing with your friend in ranked if you want to climb. It works for you. You have good synergy. Some times 1 + 1 = 5 so to speak. Playing solo you don't seem to be able to make it. Nothing wrong with that. There's no shame in being lower MMR or in the zone representative of a majority of players. You can adjust your playstyle or don't. Look its your call but your not an outlier mate.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AM8ZIzAN,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-07-10T22:35:20.674+0000) > > Send those reports in Via support Tickets imo. I don't think the automated systems gonna catch them very well. why do we have to open a manual support ticket for that shit? rioters can just do their fucking job and review these cases manually. like, its not every day that i report someone for literal cheating or account sharing, unless im absolutely sure. and as far as ive read, they have this credit system going that when you report someone for no reason, your reports will be taken less seriously. so id at least expect them to take the reports from people seriously who dont spam them every game on their allies and opponents.
For Clarity. I strongly encourage folks to consider why player behavior systems make far more impact on match quality then MMR does. So It would be nice if the system added weight to players who consistently reported correctly for toxic behaviors.Hell I would be willing to gamble some of my accounts Honor level to get a report for who I feel was truly toxic into a Rioters hands. As it stands, the best way to get a subjective human judgment seems to be via manual support tickets. If you already taking the time to go over their history, the 1-2 minutes required to manually send in a ticket should not be a big deal. If boosters bother you this is the best solution I know currently to help you get validation. I am more then happy to discuss behavior systems that add quality to the game if you wish to go over hypothetical solutions. The automated system deals with a massive amount of noise and its never going to be as good at subjective judgments as a human will given the fairly binary nature of automated programs. Same reason Stats independent of W/L are a shit metric for MM to try and use. Good stats and bad stats overlap and can look the same. Subjective systems need the context of each game or context of each account. Automated systems treat everything equally far as context goes. If it really bugs you the best option available to you is a Manuel report. That's how things stand at the moment to the best of my knowledge. I typicaly only ever use in game reports but outliers on toxicity or folks who bragg about how they never will get punished for their toxic behaviors are the ones I am willing to make time for a Manuel report. Of which I think I have done a grand total of like 5 times? Literally less then once a year.
coreym11 (NA)
: I can't win a single game, not even any competition please help
By the time you power spike with your build you have invested almost 6k gold. The 200 remaining is not even enough to get t1 boots. you give up any and all impact you can make roaming by playing Jinx lethality mid. You give up a high amount of Obj pressure on towers by not stacking AS to synergies with her Q passives. You give up Crit synergy with her Q passive. You get a very easy to dodge Skillshot that's broadcasted can be body blocked by minions and your ulti requires prior damage for it to make any impact at all. The advantage is your build is annoying for front line champions because W will chunk for a high single target value. The downside is its not remotely as effective as a massive number of options and your going to rely on teammates to consistently give you a window to make any impact. When if you want to climb, you need to focus on maximizing the impact you make with out having to rely on teammates. {{champion:101}} can poke the shit out of a lane, and his Q is multiplicatively better per target hit. If your play pattern is about Blasting some one with skillshots and good aim this is likely a more rewarding champion as winning lane and getting to level 11 enables you to remove squishy targets from a fight at ranges that are difficult to contest. Your welcome to keep doing what you want. The results of it should be clear thou, your forced to rely on teammates to be able to turn a match into a win. Your screwed if they don't thrive. Given that its insanity to assume all 4 RNG allies you have are gonna be better then their respective lanes...its not a off meta comp I would run solo in silver. My view on this as an off meta main.
: the only thing that bothers me is, that i have seen a couple of people this season who were clearly account sharing or boosting. they suddenly 1 trick a certain champion with their summoner spells swapping buttons with an extremely high winrate. like how obvious do you have to make it? none of the reports have done anything so far. in previous seasons too.
Send those reports in Via support Tickets imo. I don't think the automated systems gonna catch them very well.
: I will keep trying to climb more even though I can barely play a couple games per day. I think it is reasonable gettin less LP when you get promoted to a new division but I also think that going from 22-25 to 15-17 doesn’t sound right in my opinion. Especially if that means You were losing 14-15 per game before. I don’t even want to know how many points i will lose when I lose a game now. This sort of cut will flood d4 with many accounts though. I have seen accounts with 300 games and almost 70% winrate stuck in d4 (not even demoted for inactivity because I check those accounts after the game.). Now I wonder if my early season fucked up my account for S9 and should just wait for next season to climb seriously.
It takes alot to get demoted from division 4. Win % only has relevance with the context of when and where on the ladder as well as how many games have been played. > Now I wonder if my early season fucked up my account for S9 and should just wait for next season to climb seriously. No, your account is fine. Your rate of change is very likely lower then a fresh account but again you would see slowdown with # of games and position on ladder regardless. Freaking out over this when you don't have riots adjustment algorithm or K variable values is pointless. Its not like a SAT where your end score is your final score. Elo and MMR is always looking to self correct and never locks you down into a singular value. At the moment, your LP and MMR looks to be fairly even so your liable to see near even gains for LP on wins and losses. Many K slowdowns are just halving the value, treat diamond like its 2 full divisions rather then just one and you should have a more accurate expectation for how long it will require you to climb as a rule of thumb. I cant speak for exact details because 1. I don't have riots algorithms. 2. I am not a diamond player and am working off second hand knowledge of player experiences. I just happen to enjoy Elo systems and studied them in my free time because they are super interesting... and I want to make one that builds me a good predictive model so I can fleece my friends in fantasy football via abusing probability theory.
: Hey guys, what do i have to do in order to gain more lp
Diamond is looks like its an MMR slowdown for K factor far as I can tell, so LP gains might also be lowered to reflect that. From the looks of it, you need something like 1-2 division higher MMR to expect Slanted Gains for your LP if it follows similar patterns to the rest of the ladder. That's my Guess. K factor is a variable in Elo and MMR used for Account uncertainty. It directly impacts your accounts Elo/MMR Points per match gained or lost and traditionally it lowers for 2 reasons. First is # of games, higher data points lower uncertainty. Second is ladder position, higher Tier proves your able to play at that level so it needs to zero in to prevent lucky breaks making dramatic skill gaps. Hope that helps. Do what you enjoy btw. you have chances to climb higher still, it never will lock you out of the ability to climb or sink. It will likely take longer, and even if you do a fresh account there's a very real chance that your just gonna see a slowdown at diamond again due to it likely being a designated location for K factor reduction.
Rioter Comments
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FederationFurry,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AM8ZIzAN,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T16:13:03.220+0000) > > You are a common kind of person that has to perform a mass delusion where you believe that any issue with the game is down to "your skill" when actually skill matters very little in the current age. > > I love these mental gymnastics. You need to believe that you somehow matter... its pathetic. > > Riot need to start detecting smurf accounts and banning them when people try to cheat the system. You can never give people too much freedom because they just abuse it. If you believe that your personal skill does not affect your ability to play the game then you are definitely not playing the game correctly. If personal skill did not matter the top of the ladder would literally rotate out people every season yet it remains the same. You are the kind of person who cannot accept that there are other people better than you so you blame the system.
I completely disagree with Federation about skill and impact on matches. Hell I consistently disagree with most the posts they make. I will provide a logical out for the guy. > You are the kind of person who cannot accept that there are other people better than you so you blame the system. Look this may or may not be true. Generally speaking thou, most the time its not even that bad. Players just have huge biases, for the most part everybody treats their skill as a sample size of their good games. So they feel they deserve a better rank then their peers because they compared their mean average performance for Good matches to the Overall mean average for their peers that has off or weak games as well. Its like if you roll two dice. If you ignore any 1-3 for Dice A you will consistently see it beat dice B because you discount its negative rolls to only favor its higher end cases. 456 mean average is 5. 123456 mean average is 3.5 Pretty common place event on players in any game and most folks don't aim to check their bias.
: If you had to choose between TFT and Nexus Blitz what would you pick?
Open up Custom games to have popular Game modes. Go the old Wc3 route and have it be an optional download folder so it does not eat any Data for people who don't wanna play it. What ever popular mode is supported with a decent player population gets a MM supported que. Everybody wins? and Welcome back Dominion!
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=DarthArchon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xcv4Qrev,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T15:18:27.310+0000) > > Right my point is that i know i'm plat lvl since i've been there every season i played enought to be there, yet when i ranked and get placed silver 2, it can take 2-3 weeks just to get out of silver, most of the time because promos, specially silver 1 is filled with bad player. It shouldn't take me 3 month to go back when i know i'm plat. I don't play lol all that much and don The ranked season is a year long. If it takes 2-3 weeks to climb 2 divisions, and you belong in plat and are starting in silver 2, that's about half a season to get back to plat, which doesn't seem excessive to me. That being said, Op.gg says you haven't ended a season higher than Gold 4 so...
Also gonna chime in and point out the issue how riot freely gives titles instantly because its a feel good system for folks to see quick gratification. For most the ladder bottom end Demotions take a MASSIVE mmr loss so its hard to fall out of a Tier. 0 MM impact outside of duoing which riot does weakly (for the same player perception reasons they do Demotion protection so dramatically for divisions.) Personally if I wanted to have a system that instilled confidence in players Id require it to have a minimum # of games that it considers to achieve workable accuracy for placement and no title or division would be provided to players. Thing is people are idiots who don't like or want to understand math and would rather see quick rewards. So Riots system is filled with player perception altering systems that don't do much besides make people feel better. Adding. Iron for example is likely a 0 MMR impact attempt to try and manipulate perceptions to get players to make more effort for the mid levels of the ladder. Redistributing the ladder and using soft resets doing this made some really NASTY issues this season. Id just let idiots sink and lose rank if they start playing halfassed and kick them from ranked ques if they actively look to throw games to spite teammates /other toxic behaviors. No demotion protection for an entire MMR division that's likely used to set class intervals in riots system. No Gold 4 sitting around at Silver 3 mmr. that dudes instantly silver again the moment he drops out of my probability models range of expectations. Probaly a good thing for most folks that I am not a dev and I doubt id be popular with players owing to how blunt I approach things.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xcv4Qrev,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-10T09:16:30.636+0000) > > Some day I hope I start to see widespread support from boards users when I go on a rant about the massive impact player behavior systems make on quality of gameplay. What do you mean? I know that having seen other post of this kind saying that winning to much in a row and you start getting trolls and inter and it feel true to me. I guess that's a problem with algorithms that even the programmers don't understand.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/trueskilltm-a-bayesian-skill-rating-system/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Rating_of_Chess_Players_Past_and_Pre.html?id=syjcPQAACAAJ > I guess that's a problem with algorithms that even the programmers don't understand. No... its understood quite well. There are well documented and have been peer reviewed for years as well as a massive amount of data that's generated by the Trillions of games played. Riots system CAN BE DONE BETTER! But its not broken and any one telling you it is full of shit. Players are constantly wrong and don't even take a second to research the topic before spewing BS random guesses all over the boards to justify their raiting not matching their personal self expectation. Most players consider their "skill level" to only be their best games. In form, when they play well. Its commonly assumed as the mean average for their top end performances, when a MMR system is the mean average for ALL performances. Toxicicty is a issue for a competitive ladder, behaviors that throw losses into the game will in MMR just impact that accounts average performance and lower them on the ladder. Player behavior systems are what get used to remove a player from the que, bans and so on. MMR is objective and looks at the result of a match. Player systems will look at the individual details of a match, chat logs, if some ones running it down mid, if some ones refusing to play as a teammate to win, some one rage quit or afked, sold off all their items. ETC. Many times you need a subjective observation to really track down an issue case as automation for subjective judgment is far more complex then a MMR system. Players consistently consider 3 games a streak. Iits biased and terrible logic. https://www.random.org/coins/?num=100&cur=60-usd.0025c-ct Flip 100 coins. Your legendary Fair "50% odds". Gee golly gosh monkeys! a streak starting at 3 for heads or tails shows up ALL THE TIME. But a streak of 15? Almost never see that. Lets look at some Binary results of W or L. So 3 for a streak is just a weak number being something like 2^3 = 8. That's what 7 to 1 odds to see if your looking at literally just 3 games? There 1 possible outcome out of all 8 possible combinations you can make that's gonna be 3 wins. This gets exponetionally smaller as you up the # of possible results, for example 2^4, one more game? For a 3 streak would be what. 16 ways to make combinations. WWWW.WWWl. LWWW. So... look for a streak of 3 in a set of 4 games and you end up with... i think 4.333 to 1 odds? I am bad with factorials and struggle with statistics so I may have provided incorrect Odds. and MMR systems don't care about order? WWlW is the same as WWWL unless you hit a K factor slowdown. +5+5+5-5= 10. -5+5+5+5=10. +5+5-5+5 = 10. Its basic addition for your Rating point changes, Yea WE and K impact it but the rules are the same for everbody. 100 random players with a raiting of 1200 with K at X value vs 100 1400 with K at Y will generate the same result every single time for the adjustment, the math has rules it obeys the same way every time. Also no shit you see a streak end when you have a awfull teammate. Your more likely to lose when you have crappy teammates. Should be self evident? Like OMG we by far where the better team and stomped them super hard. Thats why we lost? Vs. Some one sucked it up, behaved inmautrly and I had a crappy game because of it. That's why we lost. No idea why players think, oh my team of 5 and their team of 5... my team better be ALL better players then the other 5. That's fair? A reasonable expectation. 1-2 folks on your team are gonna be outclassed. when its 3-4 its usually GG. And again back to my comment about importance of player behavior systems. Look at what a 10% player population looks like in contect of 5v5 games. 10 slots. your 1. 9 open slots. Lets measure 10% toxicity. If only 1 in 10 players is a negtivive teammate. https://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm Go to D 10. Set it to be 9 dice, this represents all the other players in a game. Pick 1 number. I am going to use 1 for mine. 1 has 10% odds of RNG being rolled on a D10. Roll(9d10)+0: 1,5,6,4,2,1,8,4,2,+0 Total:33 Roll(9d10)+0: 8,6,10,2,6,3,8,9,4,+0 Total:56 Roll(9d10)+0: 9,10,4,4,10,10,8,1,10,+0 Total:66 Roll(9d10)+0: 4,9,5,6,1,10,6,10,8,+0 Total:59 Roll(9d10)+0: 9,7,1,5,1,2,8,6,5,+0 Total:44 4 out of 5 games had toxic players at a rate as low as 10%. Many players would think oh 1 in 10 games might see a troll. when... well 10% is a massive number your gonna find in your games almost always. So... player behavior needs to be a constant focus and consistently negative players have to be removed for competitive integrity. Also Darth. Nothing personal. I have no beef with you. Please take any harsh language to never be directed personally at you, I'm just venting a bit. I just like numbers and dislike how fucking difficult it is to try and convince players to care about the behavior systems riot uses because MMR is a proven system. Just don't get why its so difficult for people to grasp that in team PvP games you can bet that The P impacts gameplay. Game can be good but if P is filled with garbage the gameplay is... garbage. Its really simple. So... if you care about the game being better. Behavior systems for Ranked Need a rehaul more then anything else. I hope managed to convince you on this.
: If you are winning 30 LP and losing 12, I really envy you. Used to get and lose around 20LP, but after countless loss streaks over things completely out of my control, I'm stuck getting 10-12 LP and losing at least 20. To me, it feels like trolls/inters/griefers have become too common this season. On my team and the enemy's.
Some day I hope I start to see widespread support from boards users when I go on a rant about the massive impact player behavior systems make on quality of gameplay.
: _currently i win 30 lp and lose 12, meaning i'm way under ranked and yet ranking feel grindy AF and every of the games where i got a player i need to carry all the time are psychologically straining and What's in there for me? Basically i just need to wait for player with about the same skills as me to have an easy win. If i don't i'm gonna have to carry someone to a probable lost anyway_ What the op said clearly means that their MMR is above current rank, probably one or two ranks higher. They're placed in a lower rank because matchmaking isn't good and be forced to play more than the required games to get that rank; MMR should be rank directly (as in many games) and when it isn't the matching should not force players to play more games to reach their rank. Idk why you even consider this as climbing to top or something related to that, maybe you're just shit posting or just too stupid to even understand something so basic.
You wish to talk about Basics? Setting lower MMR gains is a pretty clear cut and basic way for a dev to 100% accurately impact their time for accounts to climb. That's kind of the body of my comment in addition to pointing out that MMR expects the climb to be an eternity for the average player. Its not hard. lets say your trying to reach 100$ starting from 0$. As your boss I pick your pay grade. So at any point If I decided to pay you 2$ an hour instead of 4$ then it takes 2X longer and as I can do basic fucking math I can tell you this is 25 hours of labor VS 50 hours of labor . Hours can be replaced with # of games pretty easy when you shift the context to climbing to a rank from the Starting MMR or shit even the soft resets which...you know... the devs get to set the fucking values for? All im saying is Its honestly that easy to adjust your MMR value changes cuz its an arbitrary number. Riot could literally just decided to halve K variable values across the board to do this. Very simple change they could make any time they want. There's a negative to it thou, it Would make smurfs/trolls more obnoxious. Guess you missed this basic point I wanted to make. that's ok. Happens, I don't always convey information to others very well. So, here is more clarity on the topic so please contemplate it now that I have made an effort to draw your attention to it. OP has a net total of 2 wins over losses over 62 matches. Yes going off his OP.GG and also his LP gains the fair statement is that he is 2 divisions ahead. No... that's not really a significant amount. The dude should end up gold 2-1 even if he only ever goes win loss for the rest of the season barring dramatic duoing or player population MM issues generating massive WE variable impact. Assuming Tiers = class intervals that's something like 100 so …. no idea WTF riot uses but in a Elo system that would be 64% to 46% if the OP was VS some one at his assigned tier that's 100% accurately placed. The main advantage for riots LP system is you can set more dramatic MMR gains that don't provide a incorrect title at a high K value. this helps deal with smurfs and Trolls. There are also gains in your ability to punish cherry picking behaviors for folks trying to game lobbys and prevent dodgeing from turning any account into a lower MMR value. Remember, MMR is a range. Your expected to be inconsistent and dude its not supposed to EVER lock to a single value and it never will because the concept is to constantly be self correcting. So no, i'm not shit posting your comment was ignorant so I wanted to explain some basic issues with it. I don't mind I am always happy to educate folks. Cuz then I can get yall to focus on the shit Riot Royally FUCKS UP. like Duoing. Its shit in how they implemented it. The game is better if that gets addressed. Elo and MMR are proven and well documented and have been peer reviewed for years. I personally consider any one with 0 studying on the topic to claim its a failure to be an idiot similar to antivaxxers or flat earthers. It frustrates me that people don't get the basics. in a PvP game. PLAYERS VS PLAYERS! Gameplay is directly impacted by Player behaviors because that shit is what drives gameplay. I also don't want to ever give riot a free pass on leaving bad systems in place. 1. Duoing needs fixing. 2. Player behavior systems needs to be a high priority always. I cant tell you what Red has that job... Lyte used to but now a days? No clue. Let me know if anything is confusing or unclear.
: I understand literally nothing of what you're saying and i don't even see how it relate to what i'm saying. Care to rephrase what you've said to make it more tangible?
I was not looking to address what you said. It was to Maayon. So, My comment to Maayonmayyan is to point out the flaw in his claim. That riot wants bad MM to create a longer grind for players. You can simply have lower Point gains with a functional system to accomplish this and enjoy good MM. The benefit of a weaker MM system does not inherently guaranty an increase in player time investment to achieved end results... you have no way to really predict the outcome for all accounts accurately when you just throw randomness into it and at the same time actively looking to weaken your MM harms your game. MMR systems can be tested to check for accuracy and set system expectations for # of games for accuracy. Meaning you have the tools to adjust how long it takes to become an accurate value. Its insanely easy to have a functional system with decent MM and just make it grindy AF with value adjustments. As you seem interested, Let me directly address your post. Your MMR is higher then your assigned Tier and it looks like its a solid 2 divisions above. You have a net balance of 2 wins. Your sitting at 32W v 30 L. My guess is this is likely due to K variuable but might be WE depending on if you duoed a lot early on. I don't want to lie or mislead you this is just my guess. I don't have riots adjustment formula, I also don't have the desire to go over and check your entire season, or find out exactly what your preseason MMR was. My assumption is that 2 divisions does not make over a class interval so there is no reason to play catch up. I can tell you that Riots system does play catchup because I tried to abuse it in the past by dodging promo games to enable me to que with lower MMR friends as it stands to big of a gap and you skip not just divisions but you skip promotional matches completely. What you should expect is if you sit at a 50% win rate currently that you will end up as Gold 1 or Gold 2 owing to that being the MMR value your account currently seems to have. Your LP gains are by your own claim slanted to help move you to that range and even if baddies flop promos your gonna get a freeby so 50% will promote you. I am willing to go so far as to say that If you can maintain a higher % your going to make it to plat ranking on your account. However, at 52% its gonna be a bit of a grind and your unlikely to see a large enough gap to ever skip divisions. Again, not my system don't have their data so don't discount that I may be wrong but I feel like this is a reasonable expectation for me to try and set for you.. Back to addressing Maayonmayyan . Throwing shitty MM at players does not make it more grindy remotely as reliably as a very simple and reliable method achieved by setting lower point values per match. Because lower gains = a consistent increase in time for any and all accounts in any and all directions on the ranked ladder. If I halved the MMR gains for all accounts then it would consistently take 2 times longer to reach the correct ranks 100% of the time for 100% of players. Basic math. Pretend its my game, As the dev I can set exactly how many games my system would take any player to reach any rank because in MMR/Elo systems the point values are arbitrary values, they behave consistently and in relation to probability theory and distribution models. What You can change the value of K... which impacts the weight early games carry and reduces over time and in relation to ladder position. What you can change is how many points are generated out of (W-We.) Hell you can make your C variable be any value you want and adjust your We expectations accordingly. I will leave a data dump with information about Systems at the bottom. The exact opposite of a TLDR I suppose. Skip to the Bolded "VARIABLE TRANSLATION" if you want to understand the variables I mentioned in the last paragraph. So as the systems are made of probability theory, a normal player will never dramatically climb the ladder. No matter how many games are played the expectation is that once they are in the correct location they wont climb or sink and just float around the Range the belong. MMR and Elo Points are not an absolute value but represent the Mean average of a players performance. Its built with context of who you play in addition to the results of the games. Context of who you play matters. If your playing to win, then you see a pretty dramatic difference in your results in a game you vs a 3 month old infant or say Faker in lane, one of the reasons "why not use Stats" fails as MM so badly. Not to mention how its consistently easyer to pad stats then play to win. {{champion:30}} who hits R every time its off CD has more damage from that ability then the one who saves it for kills or to help teammates, easy example to make. ** Variable Translation guide.** Context. Elo's adjustment. Rn=Ro+K(W-We). In English. Your new raiting after a game (Rn) Is your Old Rating (Ro) Plus the result of the match (W) adjusted to account for system expectations (We. We being a more complex variable that's made of a probability model that adjusts for gaps between players Ro values.) Which is multiplied system uncertainty so that it moves players more rapidly early on to correct ranges (K. uncertainty variable. Higher with lower # of games, decreases traditionally when you have higher # of games and also at benchmarks on the ladder to prevent luck boosting some one to a range they get dumpstered at.) C is the variable used for Class interval. This is a basic expectation for wins or losses between a gap between a players raiting (R). In chess using Arpad Elos system C is 200 points of E (E = 1 elo point.) Various distribution models can be used and they impact system expectations differently. For example the odds for various modles at 1 gap of C with Elo. Normal distribution for elo would be 3.17 odds. Logistic model would be 3.16 odds And linear would be 3.00 odds. It gets dramatically higher in a gap of 2C (400 point gap). Odds look like this. Normal =11.95 Logistical =9.99 Linear =15.10 Of them... Logistical is the best thou normal distribution is workable. I assume Riot is using some kind of Logistical modle due to the fact it works well with automation. The numbers I provided and algorithms are taken directly from Arpad Elo's Book. "The Raiting of Chess players Past and Present." First printed in 1978
: The one thing that could drastically improve matchmaking is the one thing that will never happen. Removing duo que. I have had far more games ruined by duo que than I have with trolls/afkers.
Even if its not removed a fantastic QOL change is to Force Duoing to be restricted to the same class interval that MM uses to generate a fair match. MMR has a range it wants to use for quality between the lowest rated players and highest rated players. That's why you don't see a iron 4 and Diamond 1 player randomly show up on 1 team in say silver/gold MMR when that's the que they have those ratings in. (normals are discounted as there is no restriction for duoing so the two could be premade.) An average team MMR is not just balance the two teams to the same average. It needs to have a range it wants to pull from, tighter is better. 50 is the average between 0 and 100 but its also 45 and 55. So making Duo restricted of MMR values... not fucking Tiers and divisions would increase quality. Because silver 4 can have bronze MMR and Gold 1 can have plat MMR the two can duo and if you look at player distribution that ends up representing a skill gap of about 80% of the entire games player base. That's garbage! I love elo and MMR systems. Duoing is one of Riots biggest fuck ups.... it wont break the ladder at the upper end and its left alone because its popular with players. So fine... But you want to up match quality. Remove it, or restrict it as a reasonable compromise. You wanna discuss issues with the frindge ends of ladder? That's fine. Set a reasonable assumption value for outliers that's a hard cap. At max some one is treated as say 2600 for what they can que with. Even if they are 2900.... treat them as 2600. Do the same for the bottom end, issue solved for the 0.001% (<- this is a made up number. its honestly a small amount thou guys. Top of challenger and bottom of iron.) of folks that would impact.
: What happened to getting an elo for every role?
Basicaly it was a great idea but only if players participated in it. They did not. So it tanked and got scrapped and worked into a new form where there was is no option for player imput. We still have positional MM where your Role impacts the MMR MM uses. But your entire LP and Rank is universally affected, so half assing it will cost you LP . Subsequently its a bit grindyer if your off roles are lower MMR values, thou it does likely still splash over to other positions as your climb or sink. Literally the dev post where they discuss how they are killing Positional Ques stats that for most Elos they will still run Positional MM. Shhh…. don't tell any one thou.
: how to counter heavy tanks as jhin
{{item:3072}} tends to be my go to solution as a 2nd/3rd item vs tank heavy teams. You lose some Raw damage via delaying crits or lethality but typicaly the shield and the high HP you sustain allows you to not get zoned as badly by tanks. Ideally your gonna keep range on any melee champions using passive + W E. Building a shield prior to having to duel squishy targets is not bad thou your gonna be relying on teammates to pick up some slack in damage.
: Does mmr reset after the ranked season ends? And when does this season of ranked end?
Its a soft reset, your MMR will be similar to what it currently is. You can however abuse preseason to adjust your starting MMR for placements.
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Kai Guy

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