GripaAviara (EUNE)
: > When LP gains are fucked in diamond no one wants to play there. So they play two, three divisions down, basically putting themselves - hundreds of LP behind? This is a stupid argument. Smurf are 3 categories: - **Not by choice:** they have friends in lower ELO and want to have fun with them. Or were placed by the system. I respect this smurfing since it's not their direct fault -**Training** they need a break from the stress and/or want to test new strategies/champions . While normal should be their choice, it seems some need the thrill of ranked, even if it's with people below their skill. - **Bully:** sort of a jerkoff, when they get a vanity orgasm from stomping lower skilled people or make views on their streams, most toxic smurfing and despise those people
> [{quoted}](name=GripaAviara,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NyJG0XBw,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2019-04-15T22:53:08.995+0000) > > So they play two, three divisions down, basically putting themselves - hundreds of LP behind? This is a stupid argument. > > Smurf are 3 categories: > - **Not by choice:** they have friends in lower ELO and want to have fun with them. Or were placed by the system. I respect this smurfing since it's not their direct fault > -**Training** they need a break from the stress and/or want to test new strategies/champions . While normal should be their choice, it seems some need the thrill of ranked, even if it's with people below their skill. > - **Bully:** sort of a jerkoff, when they get a vanity orgasm from stomping lower skilled people or make views on their streams, most toxic smurfing and despise those people "training" in normals doesnt work cus the skill level their is so random and people are so casual/trolly. when people train they normal train on an account that is about 1 division lower then them cus the people their are still good enough to offer a decent challenge if you are on something very unfamiliar with. so like say you are a d1 top main but want to learn mid more you probably play a plat 3-1 account as mid for a while then switch to a d4-3 account then finally play it on your main. so your working up to your skill lvl which you cant do in normals
Saianna (EUNE)
: > Smurfs don't want to be playing 2 divisions below where they usually are placed, Isn't that like... the only reason why people make smurf accounts? So they can feel like gods among pleb while dominating each game? Cause if you just want to play on your level, the f would you need smurf account? For statistics? I don't get this. Overall smurfing did get hit, but alot less than you think it did. Smurfers will still smurf as if nothing happend. If anything normal people got hit harder as they'll have to deal with whatever smurf waste is being tossed at them in their lower-than-plat divisions.
> [{quoted}](name=Saianna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NyJG0XBw,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-04-16T01:48:50.929+0000) > > Isn't that like... the only reason why people make smurf accounts? So they can feel like gods among pleb while dominating each game? Cause if you just want to play on your level, the f would you need smurf account? For statistics? I don't get this. > > Overall smurfing did get hit, but alot less than you think it did. Smurfers will still smurf as if nothing happend. If anything normal people got hit harder as they'll have to deal with whatever smurf waste is being tossed at them in their lower-than-plat divisions. there is dozens of reason why people have smurf accounts. a lot of challengers/grand masters have diamond accounts to play on during non peak hours cus playing non peak hours in challenger sucks. also have smurf accounts to try new builds learn champions. also people just have alt accounts for a safety net so if you get tilted play on an account that means less to you or if one account mmr gets messed up you dont have to spend forever fixing. there is a difference between a high diamond player wanting a few high plat accounts for legit reasons and having a lower silver account. accounts that are 0.5-1.5 divisions below your main have lots of value accounts 4 divisions are basically worthless you could just queue up for normals at that point.
: NB3, SoloRenek, BunniFufu....... I could go on and on..... And no. It's not hard at all. You run in like a fool and int 0/3 at the beginning of the game, tilt your team, and then just play casual the rest of the game.... Instant loss. Just because someone's good does not mean they can't also play bad..... on purpose. https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/43247565 < Banned Smurf who harassed Silver/Bronze for over 3 years on this account. Yup. So hard to derank. (I love his 92/0 Fizz game, 52/2/24 Kai Sai game, etc etc)
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NyJG0XBw,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-15T21:57:30.569+0000) > > NB3, SoloRenek, BunniFufu....... I could go on and on..... > > And no. It's not hard at all. You run in like a fool and int 0/3 at the beginning of the game, tilt your team, and then just play casual the rest of the game.... Instant loss. Just because someone's good does not mean they can't also play bad..... on purpose. > > https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/43247565 < Banned Smurf who harassed Silver/Bronze for over 3 years on this account. > > > Yup. So hard to derank. (I love his 92/0 Fizz game, 52/2/24 Kai Sai game, etc etc) idk about solo rene or bunnifufu but nb3 always smurfts in high plat-mid diamond. so no nb3 is playing ur bronze game.
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=KaiSá,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=000f00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T23:57:48.872+0000) > > it pretty much the same situation it riot thinking they need special protection for women cus if they dont the big old bad men will run them out of the industry. which is sexist because your assuming women are weak and cant defend themselves. riot literally saying you can target ban vega best player cus it will appear sexist. Ah, if that's the meaning of what he said, then it has similarities, you're right. The thing is I'm pretty sure the person I've quoted was on the 'opposite side' of the whole argument in this thread, which is why I did not understand what he meant by that.
> [{quoted}](name=Sobx,realm=EUNE,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=000f000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-23T00:00:02.657+0000) > > Ah, if that's the meaning of what he said, then it has similarities, you're right. The thing is I'm pretty sure the person I've quoted was on the 'opposite side' of the whole argument in this thread, which is why I did not understand what he meant by that. lol yea i went back and read his comments idk what he is saying he is flipping back any forth. but for me that is how the situations are similar.
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T22:46:02.771+0000) > > It's the same mentality as seen with the Pax situation (which was different but the same mentality is here). You mean this is somehow the same mentality as people disagreeing with setting up a separate designated spots for a group of people based on race or gender and letting them enter before others? I don't think you understand what equality is. Not only that, both of these situations have nothing in common, you're just plain wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=Sobx,realm=EUNE,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=000f0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T23:35:32.498+0000) > > You mean this is somehow the same mentality as people disagreeing with setting up a seperate designated spots for a group of people based on race or gender and letting them enter before others? I don't think you understand what equality is. Not only that, both of these situations have nothing in common, you're just plain wrong. it pretty much the same situation it riot thinking they need special protection for women cus if they dont the big old bad men will run them out of the industry. which is sexist because your assuming women are weak and cant defend themselves. riot literally saying you can target ban vega best player cus it will appear sexist.
: > [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=001c0001000200000001,timestamp=2019-02-22T22:15:34.124+0000) > > It would be if it was simply for bm and not for tactical reasons like this case was. So I guess banning support champs is bm now huh, and i guess banning champions in general is also bm I also guess its sexism to even ban things now also Banning all support champs doesnt mean only girls play it lol.
> [{quoted}](name=Emperor Mudkip,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=001c00010002000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T23:24:25.582+0000) > > So I guess banning support champs is bm now huh, and i guess banning champions in general is also bm > I also guess its sexism to even ban things now also > Banning all support champs doesnt mean only girls play it lol. it is obviously not sexism. it is obviously bm tho but bm that is well deserved and no punishment should be handed out. people from time to time ban all tanks against impact and people say that is bm cus it is bm it is literally saying "we think impact cant play anything but tanks so we are going to force him to play carries". it basically trash talking him through your actions. the situation is the it basically teams saying to vega we dont think any of your players beside your support can do anything so that all we are going to ban. is it disrespecting/bming vega? yes but they deserve to be disrespected/bm.
: See, the main thing you're forgetting is that often, teams practice and show off these things in solo queue or in scrims. Picks don't exactly materialize out of thin air and players will often scout opponents in scrims, solo queue and more to get an idea of what they're playing. Plenty of players started trying Viktor top at worlds in preparation for it when it started rising to relevance. Do you know how many "full 5 man support" comps came out? How many people are testing a full five-man support team in professional play in solo queue, scrims or otherwise? Zero. And yeah, if there WAS a meta where you had a four man support/protect the ADC comp it could be viable. We've HAD that meta with Ardent. Are we in that meta? No. Is five support _good_? No. Again, it falls down to one of two assumptions: Either the team knew there was the possibility of these players pulling out a five man support composition and target banned it...or they just banned supports because they didn't take their opponent seriously. This also assumes that every single player would take these characters in lanes when far more powerful picks exist. It's baffling that people are defending this as some strategic choice when it's pretty clearly BM against the team and not taking them seriously in the slightest. And just to reiterate the organization running a low-tier 5 female player team should absolutely be slapped with a fine and/or league expulsion for putting low-diamonds in a pro team (as well as being all support players) vs. challenger+ players.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=001c000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T23:08:40.926+0000) > > See, the main thing you're forgetting is that often, teams practice and show off these things in solo queue or in scrims. Picks don't exactly materialize out of thin air and players will often scout opponents in scrims, solo queue and more to get an idea of what they're playing. Plenty of players started trying Viktor top at worlds in preparation for it when it started rising to relevance. > > Do you know how many "full 5 man support" comps came out? How many people are testing a full five-man support team in professional play in solo queue, scrims or otherwise? > > Zero. > > And yeah, if there WAS a meta where you had a four man support/protect the ADC comp it could be viable. We've HAD that meta with Ardent. Are we in that meta? No. Is five support _good_? No. Again, it falls down to one of two assumptions: Either the team knew there was the possibility of these players pulling out a five man support composition and target banned it...or they just banned supports because they didn't take their opponent seriously. This also assumes that every single player would take these characters in lanes when far more powerful picks exist. > > It's baffling that people are defending this as some strategic choice when it's pretty clearly BM against the team and not taking them seriously in the slightest. And just to reiterate the organization running a low-tier 5 female player team should absolutely be slapped with a fine and/or league expulsion for putting low-diamonds in a pro team (as well as being all support players) vs. challenger+ players. ok yea they obviously wouldnt play 5 supports anyone claiming that is stupid but literally 4 of the 5 players are off rolling so why on earth would you target any bans against them. you literally do not need to ban against top mid jg or adc because they will already be on uncomfortable picks so why wouldn't you target ban the SINGLE player on their main role. like literally what are they suppose to ban. they cant target ban any other role cus every other role doesnt have a champion pool so that literally leaves you with either banning the the meta power picks or target banning the sup player. considering a lot of power picks atm are high mechanics champions that are not sups such as lucian why would you ban that when your almost certain the d5 "adc" player formerly sup main probably cant play it. teams have thrown 5 tank bans at impact in the past and left up strong carry top laners in the past because they didnt think impact could play carries. also teams in the past have ban 5 adc against DL or 5 mids against bjergsen cus they didnt think anyone else on the team could carry. yet no one was claiming they thought the team was going to take 5adc or 5mages or 5 tanks because that stupid. yea it probably bm but it is also strategy as every who has watch any of their games can see that literally the only person who has got any kills in any of vega games is literally vega sup player. so again why wouldnt you target ban literally the only player who is on their main role and the only player who has done ANYTHING in the past 3 games.
: Considering support isn't a key role in the meta, the mass ban on supports who aren't even good in this meta and the fact that they specifically banned support against an all-female team? Wouldn't say it's discrimination. I would say it's pretty bad BM though.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=001c0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T22:20:12.122+0000) > > Considering support isn't a key role in the meta, the mass ban on supports who aren't even good in this meta and the fact that they specifically banned support against an all-female team? > > Wouldn't say it's discrimination. I would say it's pretty bad BM though. fielding 5 low diamond players who all mained one role as a publicity is also pretty bm towards the rest of the pro players and team so why isnt vega being punished every week for bming the team they are playing against?
Punkkee (NA)
: dont try to cover up sexism and disrespect for "strategy." i couldn't even watch this game. i felt horribly bad for those girls. this community is the reason why playing league is such a turnoff for me in guys
> [{quoted}](name=Punkkee,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=E0VW7QEJ,comment-id=0036,timestamp=2019-02-22T22:15:28.288+0000) > > dont try to cover up sexism and disrespect for "strategy." i couldn't even watch this game. i felt horribly bad for those girls. this community is the reason why playing league is such a turnoff for me in guys it not sexism but yes it is disrespectful because vega is disrespecting the the professional scene. first of all the girls are low diamond playing in a league of all challenger players second of all before joining the league all the girls were sup mains. respect is a two street and Vega fielding 5 low elo players who all play one role as a publicity stunt where the ones to show disrespect first. if a Vega field a team of 5 low diamond men they would still be getting disrespected also. If you dont believe me team echo fox field a bunch of old retired pros in the na challenger series about year and half ago and many people flamed and meme echo fox for doing so. keep in mind the ex pros were all still master/d1 and this was the challenger series which was the amateur league at the time and people still thought it was making a mockery of competitive gaming by doing that.
RJay123 (NA)
: Unpopular Opinion: Good and Evil are not relative @Riot
for all the people who are sitting here saying good and evil are relative i have one question for you. was Hitler and the holocaust, good or evil?
Papdi1 (EUW)
: ROX punished for banning all female supp.
Whoever says that is that it is disrespectful to ban all supports or draw out games my response is YES that is the point vega does not deserve respect. respected is something you earn not something you are owed. They hired 5 low diamond/high plat sup mains as their team as a publicity stunt that makes a mockery of the competitive scene. They deserve all the disrespect because they are the ones who disrespected every other team first by not even trying to field a competitive roster. it would be like golden guardians hiring kadeem as one of their "pro players" and demanding to be respected by the other teams when they dont give respect back. respect is a two street and vega was the one who disrespected the other teams first.
: "Sex sells" is legitimate as long as it does not hinder character identity/theme/coherence
Soooooooooooo let me get this straight you are ok with a FREAKING COP running around in a mini skirt but where you draw the line is an immortal angel wearing anything less than a full platemail suit of armor to the point of not even being able to see her eyes. ok great logic
Naalith (NA)
: I have no clue how ADC mains play this role with any regularity.
Yea our role got gutted because a bunch of angry top lane streams who are washed up (gbay hashinshin) were looking for a reason to blame why they couldnt climb anymore. if they ever bother to play adc during season 7 and 8 they would of quickly realize that it was the enchanter sups that were the ones that became busted not adc. think about what enchanter sup got between season 5 and 7. in that time period they went from basically having no way to buff their heals/shields to having redemption/ardent both add into game which both increase shields/heals by 10% and mikael's stat reworked so it then increased heals and shields by 20% and new runes that increased shields even more. so in the span of basically in 1 and half seasons, they got +50% shield power, got another massive aoe heal and all their shields/had damage buffs add on to them cus of ardent. So basically adc got gutted so the simplest and low skill curve class could have their agency doubled for no reason. (but really we all know the reason)
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
As an adc main for 6 yrs this just looks like another marksman update done by someone who doesnt even play adc. First of all 25% crit is being asked for because of CURRENT ie passive which encourages you to build as much crit as possible but with CURRENT zeal items you end up buying 20% extra crit which is 800 gold worth of stats that you have to buy that you never get to use. So your changing ie to no longer double crit then dropping crit items to 25% without reducing their gold cost or buffing them else were like that is just a straight nerf then. all so we can get a gimp ie. So what is the build path are we suppose to be excited about? buying SR which is decent for 1 item but then buy zeal so we dont even get SR max passive anymore and then ie so that 50% of the time SR passive would of been worthless anyweays then a BT and lw item yea that not a build path im excited for at all. I was cautiously optimistic when i saw the original post about crit item changes becuase with SR becoming energized SR+RF+IE was going to be a build path i was excited about or IE+double zeal items was going to be excited about again. however now were just getting reverted to a gimp version of what we use to be and if you look at the 2 patches before crit itemization in season 8 the meta was already moving towards bruisers as they recieved mutliple buffs with things such as conqueror and adc recieving nerfs to shiv dmg and cost. So we are being reverted to weaker version of something that was already on it way out of the meta and on top of that it is a worse meta now for it and we also still have keystone gutted and base stats gutted. well i have play 2 games in last month of state of adc and this has given me 0 confidence of changing that any time.
Jabalor (NA)
: Soooo bruisers have to give up one of the 2 items that were planned for them so Crit adc become relevant again?
> [{quoted}](name=Jabalor,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FGhIHTj3,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-01-15T01:33:55.075+0000) > > Soooo bruisers have to give up one of the 2 items that were planned for them so Crit adc become relevant again? you mean like the dozen of items that rito has taken from adc and given to bruisers over the years? PD was an adc item for 4yrs before season 6 marksman update which in a marksman update riot decided to take a marksman item and give it to fighters. or how witt/rageblade were both adc items for 3ish years and then they gutted them multiple times for marksmen user while buffing them for melee. or how ER was an adc item since it release until ANOTHER marksman update in season 8 which they took ER and gave it to fighters in another patch that was supposed to focus on adc.
: they dont need to be hotfixed the top ones should be nerfed
yea the 52% win rate adc needs to be hotfixed nerf but the adc with 43% doesnt need to be hotfixed buff lol logic. you guys just want adc removed the game it pretty obvious.
Meddler (NA)
: We believe quite a few marksmen should be swapping to an early BotRK, in the same way many of them did after 7.5 last year. Assumption is that StormRazor, BotRK and Rageblade are likely to be the most common starts, with a few champs also going other options like Tear (Ez), Triforce (Corki), possibly Bloodthirster (Draven?) or Lethality (MF?) etc.
Are you going post any thoughts about multiple adc having 44-46% win rate such and xayah and trist both hovering around a 44% win rate and twitch/cait hovering around 45% win rate or you just going to ignore crit adc are massively struggling? i mean most of them have a lower win rate than yasuo which your hotfixing
: No...riot wants to reduce the strength of adc itemization and delay their power spikes. Unfortunately they did not change the noncrit ADCs so ofc they are going to be out of line still despite their marksman goals.
yea and delaying their power spike makes 0 sense this isnt season 3 where games avg game lenght was 39-42mins depending on elo this is season 8 where avg game length is 23-27min. the 5 item dream is just that now a dream. game is pretty much decided now by time every one has 3 items. we cant use season 3 standards to balance adc when most mages only had 20%cdr and top lane fighters had only about 2kish hp instead of 3.5.
Meddler (NA)
: We believe quite a few marksmen should be swapping to an early BotRK, in the same way many of them did after 7.5 last year. Assumption is that StormRazor, BotRK and Rageblade are likely to be the most common starts, with a few champs also going other options like Tear (Ez), Triforce (Corki), possibly Bloodthirster (Draven?) or Lethality (MF?) etc.
Which adc do you think should rush Stormrazor becasue according to lolalytics the only adc i could find witha positive win rate building SR as first item was jinx.
Meddler (NA)
: A few things we're looking at 8.11 wise since this was written: Potential micropatches (not guaranteed, but likely enough figured they're worth mentioning): * Yasuo's taken a solid hit from the item changes and, unlike others, doesn't have alternate builds he should be migrating to. Likely targets are Q crit penalty (to -10%, like his AAs) and base AD up a couple of points. * Taliyah's performance is also down quite a bit. We're looking at Q falloff on champs on repeated hits, base AD and E trigger damage. * Ezreal by contrast's doing very well given the reduction in early game power many marksmen have felt hasn't affected him at all. Potentially lowering his passive attack speed. * Kai'Sa's also overperforming. Looking at lowering her passive damage, both base and ratio. Other * Banner of Command's potentially too strong on SR. We've disabled it as a (probably) temporary thing on ARAM, given it's clearly ruining games there when stacked. Looking at how it behaves on SR (could well be a problem too, context is different however).
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=U7Wmwcoo,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-06-01T15:26:02.429+0000) > > A few things we're looking at 8.11 wise since this was written: > > Potential micropatches (not guaranteed, but likely enough figured they're worth mentioning): > > * Yasuo's taken a solid hit from the item changes and, unlike others, doesn't have alternate builds he should be migrating to. Likely targets are Q crit penalty (to -10%, like his AAs) and base AD up a couple of points. > * Taliyah's performance is also down quite a bit. We're looking at Q falloff on champs on repeated hits, base AD and E trigger damage. > * Ezreal by contrast's doing very well given the reduction in early game power many marksmen have felt hasn't affected him at all. Potentially lowering his passive attack speed. > * Kai'Sa's also overperforming. Looking at lowering her passive damage, both base and ratio. > > > Other > > * Banner of Command's potentially too strong on SR. We've disabled it as a (probably) temporary thing on ARAM, given it's clearly ruining games there when stacked. Looking at how it behaves on SR (could well be a problem too, context is different however). So there is over 10 adc with a 47% or lower win rate (according to lolalytics) and multiple high elo streamers are complaining about how awful the build path for crit adc are and your conclusion isnt that crit adc are to weak and need help but rather just gut some of the few adc that arent underperforming? How does this make sense. it honestly just seems like you guys hate the adc role at this point.
Eedat (NA)
: People should stop saying the Devs dont communicate with us if.....
posting generic vague PR response on the boards and ignoring any criticism like a plague is not communicating with the community. they literally only ever post super vague info and then they only respond to the thread for a day before no longer responding and they only respond to the people who are praising the changes or post none of the ones bring up valid criticism.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20
So my question is what are adc supposed strengths after this? Fight a mage as an adc will be next to impossible regardless of how ahead you are since mages now can already kill an adc in 2 rotation of spells even if they are massively behind and if adc cant kill them before the next rotation of cdr comes up it will be impossible to kill them regardless of how fed you are on adc which seems pretty insane. Also your making other lanes be able to take objectives better and better when supported by team so again why would u take an adc? that is the entire strenght of an adc is that the majority of them cant do 1/3 of what top laners and mid laners can do when alone but they are the best role when support them. so are you going to make adc better when not being supported? because right now a jinx ashe sivir etc cant do any of the things a riven or ire can when alone. I understand adc probably need to be toned down a little and removing things that are not their intended strengths like their burst. But I seriously would like to know as an adc main what would ever be the purpose of pick an adc, the most team reliant role in the game if there is no extra pay off for relying on your team? this is honestly a serious concern of mine and a rioter has yet to give me an answer despite me asking despite me asking 3 different rioters that have discussed the adc changes. It sounds like it to me that tank killers is going to be their only purpose after update and that does not seem like a good enough strength to make them viable when you compare it to the strengths of mages and fighters(atleast for solo q). So please answer my question why would you pick adc who are more team reliant than any other role if you are not rewarded for relying on your team more than any other role?
Ultîma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=KaiSá,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:24:58.384+0000) > > hmmm let see out of the 10 keystones adc have 2 keystones one of which is completely worthless in lane and isnt even really good to 3 and half items. of course 95% of adc are going to use it they have 0 other viable keystones. also again it designed for them so it not abusing it if they are using it. 95% of adc using has no indicator on if it is overtuned or not because it is literally the only viable keystone on adc. it still could be over tuned and may need nerfs but ur argument is basically 90% of adc by last whisper better nerf it. Fleet Footwork being nerfed _would_ make the other keystones viable for ADCs though.
> [{quoted}](name=Ultîma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T02:55:25.968+0000) > > Fleet Footwork being nerfed _would_ make the other keystones viable for ADCs though. no it wouldnt there is no other keystone for them nerfing fleet will just leave them how bruisers were a few months ago with no keystones. masteries have always been picked for the early game and the only other "adc" keystone only becomes "viable" at 3 and half items so it is a completely worthless keystone. grasp is a more viable keystone for adc than lethal tempo is.
Ultîma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=KaiSá,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050000000100000001,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:16:26.246+0000) > > "adc abuse" the rune was designed for them lol. pta was already reworked to be a fighter rune they gave you conquer which pretty much only fighters can use and u also have grasp and now you want to take FF from adc? seriously mad about a keystone that wasnt designed for your role is getting changes. imagen if adc player complained about when Gage was made melee only because of fighter abuse. so sick of this insane attitude that fighters feel like they should be able to use anything yet adc arent even allowed to use the items/keystones that were specifically designed for them. That's not the point. FF is currently picked over 95% of the time bot lane, it is unquestionably being abused by ADCs in the bot lane to the point where you're basically trolling if you're not picking it. It gives a lot of sustain and safety in lane, which _some_ characters can use - situationally - in the top lane. My comment was not meant to say that I want top-lane bruisers to become the new primary users of FF, but rather that it would be a shame if FF suddenly became unviable for those characters as a result of it being nerfed because of its prevalence bot lane. You can calm down.
> [{quoted}](name=Ultîma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=000500000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:48:35.172+0000) > > That's not the point. FF is currently picked over 95% of the time bot lane, it is unquestionably being abused by ADCs in the bot lane to the point where you're basically trolling if you're not picking it. It gives a lot of sustain and safety in lane, which _some_ characters can use - situationally - in the top lane. My comment was not meant to say that I want top-lane bruisers to become the new primary users of FF, but rather that it would be a shame if FF suddenly became unviable for those characters as a result of it being nerfed because of its prevalence bot lane. You can calm down. hmmm let see out of the 10 keystones adc have 2 keystones one of which is completely worthless in lane and isnt even really good to 3 and half items. of course 95% of adc are going to use it they have 0 other viable keystones. also again it designed for them so it not abusing it if they are using it. 95% of adc using has no indicator on if it is overtuned or not because it is literally the only viable keystone on adc. it still could be over tuned and may need nerfs but ur argument is basically 90% of adc by last whisper better nerf it.
: > [{quoted}](name=KaiSá,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000b0000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:07:08.914+0000) > > if adc cant kill bruisers in 4 hits then fighter dont get to 2 shot adc. ire riven fiora tryn etc can easily kill adc with an ability auto+tiamat auto rest. if ur telling me it takes 10 hits to kill jax than the jax doesnt get to point and click hop on me then auto+w and take 80% of my life. fighters seem to be under the impression they should be near unkillable yet still have tons of dps with high mobility and decent utility. you have to have a weakness somewhere. fighters can't two shot adcs... I wish, but supports exist.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000b00000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:26:55.967+0000) > > fighters can't two shot adcs... > > I wish, but supports exist. to bad this isnt the lcs and adc dont get to choose their sups so half the time the sup is either autofilled or going something like brand
: > [{quoted}](name=KaiSá,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050009000000030000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:00:31.692+0000) > > because all fighters are either top laners or jg which both roles have a significantly easier time to snowball than in the bot lane. jg can affect all roles in game so i dont really need to explain why they can snowball. The overwhelming majority of top laners are melee which means if you get a lead as a fighter in the top lane you freeze the wave and deny a significant amount of cs from enemy top unless they risk getting all in by you and not to mention you have tp to snow ball even more. In bot lane it is really easy for bad adc to get almost max income because they often have range wave clear making it almost impossible to deny them unless you call for 3-4 man dive on them. Basically the easy at which you can snow ball means that if your not snowballing as a fighter you dont deserve to carry because it is honestly not that impressive to snowball as a fighter if you understand wave management and tp advantage. bot lane snowballs harder than top and has so since last season
> [{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=000500090000000300000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:13:40.345+0000) > > bot lane snowballs harder than top and has so since last season snowball =/= influence. adc have more influence atleast in super high elo because in super high elo game is almost entirely focused on on objectives which destroying objectives is part of adc identity. however it is near impossible for a good adc to create a signficant advantage above another adc. a 10cs lead in bot is extremely impressive while it is not rare to see 30-40 cs leads in the top.
Ultîma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2018-04-17T20:01:09.557+0000) > > I don't think it needs to be deleted. Fleet Footwork is a cool fallback and great for a certain style but should not be allowed to be the dominant option in the meta. That might mean nerfs to FF, buffs to other keystones, or a combination - we're pretty sure there need to be changes, less sure exactly which changes. I'd say a combination is most likely. Please consider melee characters who might enjoy using FF if you nerf the Keystone due to ADC abuse in the botlane. FF is pretty interesting for some melee-carries who take it in matchup specific instances and it would be a shame to see it become unviable there.
> [{quoted}](name=Ultîma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-17T20:06:38.853+0000) > > Please consider melee characters who might enjoy using FF if you nerf the Keystone due to ADC abuse in the botlane. FF is pretty interesting for some melee-carries who take it in matchup specific instances and it would be a shame to see it become unviable there. "adc abuse" the rune was designed for them lol. pta was already reworked to be a fighter rune they gave you conquer which pretty much only fighters can use and u also have grasp and now you want to take FF from adc? seriously mad about a keystone that wasnt designed for your role is getting changes. imagen if adc player complained about when Gage was made melee only because of fighter abuse. so sick of this insane attitude that fighters feel like they should be able to use anything yet adc arent even allowed to use the items/keystones that were specifically designed for them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000) > > Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. > > One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch. > > We're looking at Marksmen with a few values: > > 1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot. > 2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits. > 3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen. > 4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions. > > This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes. So maybe we can make tanks less tanky, but make marksmen DPS less and anti tank effects less effective (or less anti-tank). That's basically the solution to the huge issue. ADCs no longer kill mages in about 4 autos, bruisers don't also die in 4 autos because LDR's bonus damage, and Conqueror can give more AD and less true damage (because it shouldn't only be effective against tanks). Otherwise, would be nice if we fixed mid lane's two major issues: Perma Waveclear and DPS Mage Powercreep. Nerf lost chapter by removing the CDR since CDR, mana, mana restore, and AP on 1100 gold tends to let people perma clear waves. Buffing adaptive helm because DPS mages were strong didn't solve the issue that DPS mages won the lane and outscaled their opponent still.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000b,timestamp=2018-04-17T21:42:18.156+0000) > > So maybe we can make tanks less tanky, but make marksmen DPS less and anti tank effects less effective (or less anti-tank). That's basically the solution to the huge issue. ADCs no longer kill mages in about 4 autos, bruisers don't also die in 4 autos because LDR's bonus damage, and Conqueror can give more AD and less true damage (because it shouldn't only be effective against tanks). > > Otherwise, would be nice if we fixed mid lane's two major issues: Perma Waveclear and DPS Mage Powercreep. Nerf lost chapter by removing the CDR since CDR, mana, mana restore, and AP on 1100 gold tends to let people perma clear waves. Buffing adaptive helm because DPS mages were strong didn't solve the issue that DPS mages won the lane and outscaled their opponent still. if adc cant kill bruisers in 4 hits then fighter dont get to 2 shot adc. ire riven fiora tryn etc can easily kill adc with an ability auto+tiamat auto rest. if ur telling me it takes 10 hits to kill jax than the jax doesnt get to point and click hop on me then auto+w and take 80% of my life. fighters seem to be under the impression they should be near unkillable yet still have tons of dps with high mobility and decent utility. you have to have a weakness somewhere.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=000500090000,timestamp=2018-04-17T21:41:07.341+0000) > > "Snowballing Fighters can carry" > > (Caution: It is very likely that our idea of "snowballing fighters can carry" is different from a fighter main's idea of the same thing) why does it have to be snowballing and not just "fighters can carry?" where are our late games? what if there's no snowball? when are you going to make juggernauts the late game gods they deserve to be?
> [{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000900000003,timestamp=2018-04-17T23:01:29.766+0000) > > why does it have to be snowballing and not just "fighters can carry?" where are our late games? what if there's no snowball? > > when are you going to make juggernauts the late game gods they deserve to be? because all fighters are either top laners or jg which both roles have a significantly easier time to snowball than in the bot lane. jg can affect all roles in game so i dont really need to explain why they can snowball. The overwhelming majority of top laners are melee which means if you get a lead as a fighter in the top lane you freeze the wave and deny a significant amount of cs from enemy top unless they risk getting all in by you and not to mention you have tp to snow ball even more. In bot lane it is really easy for bad adc to get almost max income because they often have range wave clear making it almost impossible to deny them unless you call for 3-4 man dive on them. Basically the easy at which you can snow ball means that if your not snowballing as a fighter you dont deserve to carry because it is honestly not that impressive to snowball as a fighter if you understand wave management and tp advantage.
: Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch. We're looking at Marksmen with a few values: 1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot. 2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits. 3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen. 4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions. This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000) > > Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. > > One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch. > > We're looking at Marksmen with a few values: > > 1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot. > 2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits. > 3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen. > 4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions. > > This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes. As an adc player this post is pretty concerning. First i acknowledge with the current state of game adc are probably over tuned as the neutral objectives changes hves made sieging much stronger so they probably deserve to be brought down a little bit but this seems like you plan to just gut them without giving them an identity. Also most your points seem really misleading because you dont really provide context with your points as to why the current state exist. 1. To address your first point saying that adc is the most valuable member on team makes it sound like adc are just going around 1v1ing everyone which just is simply not the case. It not like a jinx with a ie+ruunan jinx is going walk up to a jax with tf+gage and 1v1 him without him massively messing up. the reason why adc are the "most valuable" is because they are squishy sustain dmg dealers meaning you get the most value out of killing at the start of the fight or before a fight starts. compare this to other roles- assassins and mages have a lot of frontloaded dmg so even if they get caught they can often dump their cd into someone before going down while tanks/fighters take a lot more time and resources to kill so teammates can often rotate them making it less punishing if they get caught out. The glass cannon identity of adc where most of them have little to no mobility and very limited utility/cc means they if a team can shatter the cannon early they are heavily rewarded. Also are we really forgetting just about 2 months ago the vast majority of lcs teams were playing through the top lane with carries like gp and camille. If adc was the most valuable role in game the why would the best teams in the world focus their resources into top lane for like 3-4 patches in a row? 4 if your going to reduce their burst late game how are they expect to be able to fight other squishies late game. Cd based champions almost all have 40% cdr late game in current state of game and many of them can delete an adc in 1 rotation meaning it requires either the cd based champion to mess up or adc to dodge their spells and then because of the 40-45% cdr they often have 2-4s to kill that squishy before they are throwing another set of spells at you. is it really reasonable to expect an adc to dodge 3-4 rotation of spells in order to be able to fight other squishy carries. Also if adc are not allowed to have burst then why are so many of the high burst dmg mages allowed to have such good sustain dmg. meta mid laners like azir cass ryze and syndra all have the ability to burst people with loads of utility while still having extremely high sustain dmg. Why are adc forbidden from having burst dmg because of their sustain yet mages are not forbidden from having sustain dmg because of their burst? also you already suggested your nerfing adc mid game and now your also saying u want to nerf their late-game soooo what point in the game are they suppose to feel like a carry? it's pretty frightening to hear you plan on nerfing adc power curve at basically every point in the game. Last you said probably mean reworks for a significant amount of adc items? shouldn't you guys know if that is going to happen by now. I mean this is supposed to mainly being rolled out on 8.10 and 8.8 is currently being released tomorrow that means we are about 2 weeks away from when these changes are supposed to go up on pbe and you don't seem to have a decent direction on changes to pretty much all the adc items. Can you see how it is pretty frightening to hear for adc players? I agree adc currently probably need some nerfs and potentially some changes but honestly as an adc player this post sounds like it lacks context or direction for the changes and that adc is going to be getting gutted because top laners like hashinshin cried long enough and loud enough. I understand some players might not enjoy playing against really good adc players atm but this just reminds of all the class reworks such as the assassins and some of the mages were in an attempt to make them more fun to play against you ruin them for all the people who play it. I also would like to add that i doubt most adc players in solo q just love playing against super fed rivens irelia etc who can dive and blow you up with very little options unless ur team peels for you yet you dont see adc players crying like top laners and you guys are not gutting those champions. I really hope you take these concerns into account and possibly respond to them soon. I understand you cant give all the details but to be given such vague details about direction of changes is highly concerning considering how close were are to said changes.

KaiSá

Level 245 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion