mzicio (EUW)
: But is his dance a Jojo reference yes or no?
zounet (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=93xILq4K,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-27T17:00:05.472+0000) > > No space? I can't keep up with our crazy lore XD > > There must be space though, because there's a sun and a moon and comets, shooting stars, meteors... whoever said there's no space is making things very hard for themselves. Reality doesn't work on a fundamental level without space. Neil deGrasse Tyson would be ashamed. > > To answer your question Interlocutioner informs me that the moon exists in both the material and spirit realm, and in that way is very special indeed. can you explain because it was very difficult to understand , pls? https://twitter.com/lauriegoulding/status/1172912381875249152?s=21],
It seems just like Aphelios and Alune there are in a way two moons that are twins one in the physical realm and one in the spiritual realm. They are the same yet in different places, connected but never touching. I didn't help did I?
Atgo (EUW)
: Just saying there's no space is kinda misleading. There _is_ space, it just isnt part of the same plane of existence as Runeterra. Those things you said, sun, moon, comets, shooting stars and meteors, they exist, but they're on the celestial realm. There isnt a space like we understand it irl, rather they are _something_ in the celestial realm(that can include a lot of things, including Aspects, Aspect of War/Pantheon was literally a constellation) and are seen in the physical realm as objects in the night sky. That's probally why Interlocutioner said the Moon existing in the physical and spiritual realms is special btw, other celestial objects probally exist only on the celestial realm, so being part of Runeterra instead of only the celestial realm makes the Moon special. And who needs Neil deGrasse Tyson when you have World Runes shaping reality? Here are some quotes reinforcing that idea btw > An age ago, when time itself was young, the inhabitants of the celestial realm regarded the fledgling races of Runeterra with growing concern. > > These creatures deviated wildly, unpredictably, and dangerously from the great designs intended for them by those above. The guidance and fates that had been woven into the night sky often went unseen... Soraka bio > The Darkin’s god-killing blade was driven into Pantheon’s chest, a blow that carved the constellation of War from the heavens. Pantheon bio > And though I am broken, and though the god is dead, I feel the power ignite once more in my spear, as the plume on my helm bursts alight. It is calling me to battle, as the Ra’Horak cast their spears once more. > > And, for a moment, a star lost with the Constellation of War gleams brighter than the sun. For Those Who Have Fallen > The celestial realm is not space. There is only one world in the setting, and that is Runeterra. > > The Void is un-creation, and the celestial realm is creation. Mortals can't truly comprehend either, because we exist between them. > If you go "up" from the surface of Runeterra, you will not leave the atmosphere and enter an empty vacuum. It is a world, but not a "planet". > > Imagine the way folks thought about our world in the 15th and 16th centuries. It's like that (Except they were wrong, and this isn't!) https://twitter.com/lauriegoulding/status/1172912381875249152?s=21
Well he's on vacation and I say there's space - that's where Pantheon goes when you press R! Bioluminescence spent a long time ensuring the shape of Runeterra all made geologic and geographic sense as a real world. That kind of thing, weather, gravity, atomic particles, tides, elements like... **everything** stems from the fundamental rules of our own universe. Sure there's magic as well, and maybe no one living on Runeterra understands cosmology. But I don't think you can hand wave every physical interaction, chemical and biological, with 'it's magic'. Well, there sure seems to be magic celestial gods _and_ a physical realm _and_ a spirit realm _and_ a god of death _and_ demons so maybe it really is just that wild? Look I'm sort of joking here and it's also just my personal attitude on fantasy worlds and their believability... the sort of fantasy that I can get behind. But really there doesn't need to be absolute answers imo, a fantasy world is going to be shaped by the beliefs of the characters in them, their culture, religions and speculation of a world that still contains the wonder of the unknown and inexplicable!
zounet (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=93xILq4K,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-26T22:51:08.959+0000) > > One is a silver metal forged in moonlight which imbues with a touch of magic, the other is a super-rare stone from a piece of the moon that broke off and embedded in the mountain aeons ago. The latter is evidently much more potent magically. Thx a lot really It s so nice to take all This time to answer us And Just ( my last question) is the Moon in material realm , in celestial realms or in both, since we now there is no " space " in runeterra?
No space? I can't keep up with our crazy lore XD There must be space though, because there's a sun and a moon and comets, shooting stars, meteors... whoever said there's no space is making things very hard for themselves. Reality doesn't work on a fundamental level without space. Neil deGrasse Tyson would be ashamed. To answer your question Interlocutioner informs me that the moon exists in both the material and spirit realm, and in that way is very special indeed.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=93xILq4K,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-26T00:57:58.692+0000) > > Thanks for the invitation. I could go on for days about his design but I'll try to start with some reasoning around how we ended up where we did. > > Off the bat your instincts are correct Aphelios' design had to be simple to support the weapons he carries as they need to be fairly clear at all times. I tried to fuse the robes of a religious priest with the classic look of a secret agent (tactical turtleneck!) to create a clear aesthetic that drives his theme. Comparing him to Diana I actually tried to carefully replicate the same materials seen in her design, but arranged very differently. She is a Rakkor raised by the Solari who found the ancient armour of the aspect of the moon - a warrior-avatar of the forgotten Lunari sect. By contrast Aphelios is a monk of sorts, equal parts minimalist utilitarian (the black suit) and divine ritualist (the holy robes). He's not dressed to take a hit, he's dressed to perform a ceremony. He is also dressed in the way of the modern Lunari which have likely made changes particularly because they are few and living in hiding. When they walk amongst the Rakkor they must hide their true selves so when they are free to wear what they want rich forbidden colours are on display. Were Diana welcomed to the modern Lunari I could see them dressing her similarly to Alune for a religious event, celebrating the return of their scion. I'll also just point out that LoL champions represent the most extraordinary characters in the world of Runeterra. They are the ones that really stand out from a background of fantasy tropes. LoR is a great example of what the rest of the world look like but in LoL we are focused on the exceptions to the rules. > > The weapons were a much longer journey, being designed and redesigned over and over. Originally they were wholly moonsilver like Diana's blade. Diana's blade seems to be able to launch out beams of moonlight, so it's not at all a stretch to see that honed into a projectile weapon, but Aphelios is so different to the rest of the Lunari (and the Rakkor in general) we felt it needed a unique material. Something rare and potentially fragile, something only wielded by him, held and empowered by his sister's magic, something once enervated would be useless to allies and enemies alike. Shaping the moonstone was then a careful balance between the Lunari theme and the gameplay requirements. For each weapon I imagined how he would hold it and tried to connect them to weapons other marksman wield as a way to ensure that if you play LoL, playing as or against Aphelios you'd immediately have some idea of what was going to happen next (oh it's like Caitlyn's rifle, oh it's like Gnar's boomberang etc). Every day I'd have people come by and I'd ask them to guess what each weapon did until I was reliably getting correct answers. On top of that each one was tied to a celestial phenomenon - this served to further reinforce gameplay (Black hole has a CC effect) and give them a colour identity to support gameplay learning and recognition. I imagined the Lunari sort of like the Eldar in 40k, sculpting these smooth graceful shapes inspired by the phases of the moon, swooping crescents and curves of the phases, orbits of the moon, flow of the tides. The one additional element, a flourish added when they were weaponised, the carved ridges present on 4 of the 5 that mimic the shape of the flower 'moonbloom' from which Aphelios' tonic is drawn. > > The weapons are very sci-fi, his whole aesthetic is quite future-fantasy, but that is a side of Mt Targon; at the base you have the hardy and Hellenistic Rakkor, but the higher you go up the mountain the more alien things become until you reach the top and touch a wholly unnatural space. Each character has different amounts of these two elements but bringing them together is what sets Mt Targon apart from other fantasy locales. Hey Kindlejack, Just wanted to take a sec to thank you, and all the Rioters who take the time to thoughtfully respond to the community like this. We all love this game (even if it sometimes sounds like wailing and gnashing teeth), and it is so cool to get these glimpses behind the curtain. In particular, I wanted to commend you for engaging with the community as much as you have lately. It is awesome! Keep being awesome! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
My kid is sick so I'm watching the launch of Aphelios from home. It's been awesome to see the response! But yeah I have one hand free with my phone while I'm holding a sad baby so I have a bit more time than usual to write stuff :) Also when I was on skins I'd have a lot to say pretty regularly but some champions take a looooong time in development and I don't have much to contribute to conversations in the interim. So I'll probably mostly be checking forums a lot more around the time projects I worked on launch.
GreenLore (EUW)
: > She is a Rakkor raised by the Solari who found the ancient armour of the aspect of the moon - a warrior-avatar of the forgotten Lunari sect I feel like there is a certain irony in this. The aspect of the moon, who should be the central figure of the lunari, wasn't born as one of them and actually used to be a solari.
Imagine how it feels right. You live a life of devotion and your god chooses an enemy as their champion.
zounet (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=93xILq4K,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-26T00:23:59.696+0000) > > Yeah Diana's weapon is made from moonsilver, which is the same material that the handles of Aphelios' weapons are crafted from, but not the main material which is moonstone. Moonstone is the rare stuff Nami is searching for. It's also a blade made for fighting, whereas these relics were more sculptural in nature - originally more like holy art pieces carved from the most sacred and precious material. They were only refined and set into moonsilver brackets after Alune and Aphelios unlocked their potential as focuses for her magical power. sorry, but what is the difference between moonstone and moonsilver? Does one come from spiritual magic and the other from celestial magic?
One is a silver metal forged in moonlight which imbues with a touch of magic, the other is a super-rare stone from a piece of the moon that broke off and embedded in the mountain aeons ago. The latter is evidently much more potent magically.
: Can we get a visual breakdown of Aphelios?
I'd also just like to thank you for the way you've worded your post. It's totally fine if you don't like the way he looks even after some explanation, it's fine if you disagree with everything I say! But you've set the context, asked a question and framed your thoughts in a way that made it really easy for me to jump in and share my own thoughts about working on the champion.
: Can we get a visual breakdown of Aphelios?
Thanks for the invitation. I could go on for days about his design but I'll try to start with some reasoning around how we ended up where we did. Off the bat your instincts are correct Aphelios' design had to be simple to support the weapons he carries as they need to be fairly clear at all times. I tried to fuse the robes of a religious priest with the classic look of a secret agent (tactical turtleneck!) to create a clear aesthetic that drives his theme. Comparing him to Diana I actually tried to carefully replicate the same materials seen in her design, but arranged very differently. She is a Rakkor raised by the Solari who found the ancient armour of the aspect of the moon - a warrior-avatar of the forgotten Lunari sect. By contrast Aphelios is a monk of sorts, equal parts minimalist utilitarian (the black suit) and divine ritualist (the holy robes). He's not dressed to take a hit, he's dressed to perform a ceremony. He is also dressed in the way of the modern Lunari which have likely made changes particularly because they are few and living in hiding. When they walk amongst the Rakkor they must hide their true selves so when they are free to wear what they want rich forbidden colours are on display. Were Diana welcomed to the modern Lunari I could see them dressing her similarly to Alune for a religious event, celebrating the return of their scion. I'll also just point out that LoL champions represent the most extraordinary characters in the world of Runeterra. They are the ones that really stand out from a background of fantasy tropes. LoR is a great example of what the rest of the world look like but in LoL we are focused on the exceptions to the rules. The weapons were a much longer journey, being designed and redesigned over and over. Originally they were wholly moonsilver like Diana's blade. Diana's blade seems to be able to launch out beams of moonlight, so it's not at all a stretch to see that honed into a projectile weapon, but Aphelios is so different to the rest of the Lunari (and the Rakkor in general) we felt it needed a unique material. Something rare and potentially fragile, something only wielded by him, held and empowered by his sister's magic, something once enervated would be useless to allies and enemies alike. Shaping the moonstone was then a careful balance between the Lunari theme and the gameplay requirements. For each weapon I imagined how he would hold it and tried to connect them to weapons other marksman wield as a way to ensure that if you play LoL, playing as or against Aphelios you'd immediately have some idea of what was going to happen next (oh it's like Caitlyn's rifle, oh it's like Gnar's boomberang etc). Every day I'd have people come by and I'd ask them to guess what each weapon did until I was reliably getting correct answers. On top of that each one was tied to a celestial phenomenon - this served to further reinforce gameplay (Black hole has a CC effect) and give them a colour identity to support gameplay learning and recognition. I imagined the Lunari sort of like the Eldar in 40k, sculpting these smooth graceful shapes inspired by the phases of the moon, swooping crescents and curves of the phases, orbits of the moon, flow of the tides. The one additional element, a flourish added when they were weaponised, the carved ridges present on 4 of the 5 that mimic the shape of the flower 'moonbloom' from which Aphelios' tonic is drawn. The weapons are very sci-fi, his whole aesthetic is quite future-fantasy, but that is a side of Mt Targon; at the base you have the hardy and Hellenistic Rakkor, but the higher you go up the mountain the more alien things become until you reach the top and touch a wholly unnatural space. Each character has different amounts of these two elements but bringing them together is what sets Mt Targon apart from other fantasy locales.
: These weapons are practically made out of crescent shapes, I'm not really sure any other shape language would say "moon" better than that. I think Aphelios's weapons just look a little more sleek since they weren't designed 8 years ago by a completely different designer. If you look at Diana's splash art, her blade is similarly made of mainly crescent shapes, its just not the same color, perhaps because of the lighting or perhaps because of Riot's splash style has changed a bit. I would say the silver parts of Aphelios' weapons more resemble Diana's. I can't remember, but is Diana's weapon made of moonstone? That could account for some of the differences in design.
Yeah Diana's weapon is made from moonsilver, which is the same material that the handles of Aphelios' weapons are crafted from, but not the main material which is moonstone. Moonstone is the rare stuff Nami is searching for. It's also a blade made for fighting, whereas these relics were more sculptural in nature - originally more like holy art pieces carved from the most sacred and precious material. They were only refined and set into moonsilver brackets after Alune and Aphelios unlocked their potential as focuses for her magical power.
: What did Demacian capture Demons for?
Hmmm, maybe to stop them from killing Demacians. Maybe to study so they could create more effective weapons? Maybe because no one else at that time was strong enough to do so? I don't have the exact answer but even in ancient times Demacians are not ones to sit idly by while there's evil about.
arowin242 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=P0fJeEKi,comment-id=000e000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-21T18:25:12.115+0000) > > Yeah that totally makes sense! I'm not the authority on it, but a small petricite trinket or stone disc would fill quickly, becoming less harmful to mages. It would probably also dissipate quickly though. > > Fun fact Sylas's shackles were originally built by Durand to restrain powerful demons like TK and Evelynn. They were never intended for a human and using them on Sylas is overkill. That's why they are so big and caused him to suffer so much, but also what makes them a fearsome weapon in his hands. ah! so yeah petricide pretty much has a 'limit' of how much it can absorb but most likely also bleeds the magic back into the environment (otherwise Ryze's world rune vault would have long since overloaded) and Sylas' shackles being made for demons does indeed make sense, and explains the sheer overkill of them. i feel like it it still a flawed design though, considering that demons can take a form of their choosing, and change it at will (TK does so at the very least.) actually capturing one is even more difficult: since they are made of magic they have an extremely easy time travelling around and teleporting short distances does not seem to be any problem from them. its not impossible tough: Beatrice, the demon of secrets was kept in the immortal bastion. having most likely been imprisoned there my Mordekaiser (like Veigar). these are nice lore titbits, thanks.
Thanks for asking! I think the petricite nullifies the Demon's magic to the point they can't shapeshift or teleport. Catching them is the tricky part but ancient Demacians were super duper tough. They had to be to survive the rune wars!
arowin242 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=P0fJeEKi,comment-id=000e0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-21T05:06:19.067+0000) > > Yeah he seems to be straight up using people for his immature agenda. But he _is_ a villain. He's gonna do bad things. > > Galio becomes animated because that's how Durand designed him (as seen in the Lux comic). There are instances of petricite in Demacia absorbing magic for as long as Demacia has been a country and they seem fine. Sylas' manacles contain 15 years of his own magic, which is what he is unleashing when he uses his Passive/Q/E. As far as we know petricite has successfully nullified all magic it comes in contact with - which we now know is because it's absorbing it. Garen's silence works on every champ in the game! It does make allot of sense then put in that way. so Garen using his Q in-game, he's essentially telling his sword 'nullify (absorb) that magic' but his Ult is him just releasing the magic within (an enchantment from Kayle if i'm not incorrect). it also explains how his W works. that being said petricide would be an effective method of battling demons (TK, eve, ect...) because they are creatures made from magic. but there are clearly limitations: using the magic inside of petricide will eventually deplete it, and if the enemy avoids contact at all cost its useless. all well and so, i personally think that the *Size* of petricide constructs effects its capacity for magic: the Demacian palace is gigantic, galio is on an equal size and both have been absorbing magic for at least the last 750 years (of course galio also has been using his own magic to defeat enemy mages, as his locomotion requires it.) Ryze also stores the world runes in a Massive petricide chamber: his vault would have to be even bigger than the demacian palace, considering the sheer power of the world runes. do you also believe that the size of a construct relates to its capacity?
Yeah that totally makes sense! I'm not the authority on it, but a small petricite trinket or stone disc would fill quickly, becoming less harmful to mages. It would probably also dissipate quickly though. Fun fact Sylas's shackles were originally built by Durand to restrain powerful demons like TK and Evelynn. They were never intended for a human and using them on Sylas is overkill. That's why they are so big and caused him to suffer so much, but also what makes them a fearsome weapon in his hands.
Jaspers (EUW)
: Lore into Gameplay facts. I like it. I'm glad the Sylas personality is coming across, if you intend it that way. As you say, he's been in a hole, he doesn't understand the world and is using people to get his way, weirdly successfully. I just find it strange how many people are doing what he wants and not thinking about their themselves or what it really gets them in the end. It's like just because he's the loudest guy in the room they follow him. I mean, 12 Mages died for him to make winky eyes at a Winter's Claw?
It sounds like they died from the harsh climate rather than nobly sacrificing themselves for his cause. Remember the mage outcasts are desperate. I remember a Dan Carlin podcast where he begins by asking 'what would you sacrifice for freedom?' But yeah I agree sometimes it sounds like they were just waiting for literally anyone, and he happens to be the loudest guy in the room. Then again human history is full of terrible leaders people followed because they were desperate and the leader was loud...
arowin242 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=P0fJeEKi,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T18:07:49.731+0000) > > This is just my personal take, but designing Sylas I tried to keep in mind that he has been in a dungeon pretty much alone for 15 years. What does that do to a person? Reading about modern prison institutions, being incarcerated at a young age can potentially stunt psychological development. I always imagined Sylas has an amazing mind, he's quite the creative genius, but he's had nothing but stone walls and his imagination since he was pretty much a kid. He's intended to be magnetic, not necessarily charming but of a conviction so compelling it draws people to him (similar to how his petricite draws magic - parallels!) > > I do agree this makes him more difficult to relate to. But I think if we had him acting like Ozymandias it wouldn't be true to the intense trauma of his immediate past. I also hope to see him grow; face that arrested adolescence, learn about the world he is returning to, learn how to not let his emotions get the better of him. He could be a great hero, he could be a terrible villain, he could die at the hands of the past that haunts him. That's what I really like about him. > > I love this story Ant wrote. I love that Sylas is a very flawed character. I don't love how nerfed he is right now -_- so he is more of lifeline for the outcast - a hope they can cling to. this makes him indeed somewhat more agreeable, but i still dislike his way 'recruiting' people to his cause. taking their magic and showing just what (terrible) deeds it can do. he's practically at the very edge: if he goes to far then even his fellow outcast will start seeing him in a different light. as it stands however he has done nothing to garner the love of the common folk in Demacia, his reckless use of magic will only make them fear him more. he needs to show them what miracles magic can achieve. simply killing the king will only instil fear and distrust - which will lead to another rebellion. with his current story we do see how far he is willing to go in order to complete his objective: allying with the winter's claw will undoubtedly attract unnecessary attention, and it also gives us an idea of just how strong Petricide can be when weaponized (temporarily becoming an iceborn). this brings me to a question: is there a limit? at what point does the Petricide become animated like Galio? or is there an actual limit to how much magic it can absorb before it explodes due to overload? can certain types of magic be absorbed at all? so many... thanks for your input tough.
Yeah he seems to be straight up using people for his immature agenda. But he _is_ a villain. He's gonna do bad things. Galio becomes animated because that's how Durand designed him (as seen in the Lux comic). There are instances of petricite in Demacia absorbing magic for as long as Demacia has been a country and they seem fine. Sylas' manacles contain 15 years of his own magic, which is what he is unleashing when he uses his Passive/Q/E. As far as we know petricite has successfully nullified all magic it comes in contact with - which we now know is because it's absorbing it. Garen's silence works on every champ in the game!
arowin242 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jaspers,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=P0fJeEKi,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-11-20T10:49:10.222+0000) > > Sylas is an idiot. I mean really. It's a weird thing, I like how he's written. A bumbling fool who's own ambition is so driven by one goal that he doesn't actually get the world around him. But I hate how he's made out to some great character and a big leader when anyone following this fool should be killed like he should. > > He's has prime role in how Demacia works, redefining Lux, J4 and Garen, multiple stories flung upon him and he's just not likeable. I like Magneto as he is a complex villain of years of character progression but even then he had charisma, charm and poise, Sylas doesn't have any, he's a lucky lieing idiot. > > EDIT: How the Freljord folk were written was great though. More of them, less of Sylas please. i agree, riot has pushed him to be THE catalyst for change in demacia, but with his overal character, quirks and uhhmmm questionable conscription (because that's what he does, no beating around it) he's more likely to die by the hands of his followers than his actual enemies. this is, not even talking about the way that sylas defeats his own purpose: he wants demacia to be more accepting of magic and wants the hypocripsy of the upper class to dissapear. but paints himself as the very object of why people fear magic. the freljordians where nice tough.
This is just my personal take, but designing Sylas I tried to keep in mind that he has been in a dungeon pretty much alone for 15 years. What does that do to a person? Reading about modern prison institutions, being incarcerated at a young age can potentially stunt psychological development. I always imagined Sylas has an amazing mind, he's quite the creative genius, but he's had nothing but stone walls and his imagination since he was pretty much a kid. He's intended to be magnetic, not necessarily charming but of a conviction so compelling it draws people to him (similar to how his petricite draws magic - parallels!) I do agree this makes him more difficult to relate to. But I think if we had him acting like Ozymandias it wouldn't be true to the intense trauma of his immediate past. I also hope to see him grow; face that arrested adolescence, learn about the world he is returning to, learn how to not let his emotions get the better of him. He could be a great hero, he could be a terrible villain, he could die at the hands of the past that haunts him. That's what I really like about him. I love this story Ant wrote. I love that Sylas is a very flawed character. I don't love how nerfed he is right now -_-
Akali Jr (NA)
: What about a good ol' classic of David S. Pumpkins? Not really but it felt appropriate with Halloween coming up and the idea of dances for Fiddlesticks. https://youtu.be/rS00xWnqwvI?t=63
Haha it would be so cool if Pumpkinhead Fiddlesticks said "Any questions!?" but it's a 520 skin.
UltraRow (EUW)
: As a person who really enjoys Fiddlesticks, I have 2 questions and a bit of feedback and some ideas for you, if you could answer my questions I would really appreciate it thank you. 1) Will, he still retain some of his more goofy elements or are you going for a more serious champ this time? 2) Are his crows gone? Feedback and Ideas: I think the teeth in his new design is a bit much, I think he would feel a bit more like Fiddlesticks and look a lot better without them. I think when Fiddle is in the game a lot of crows should appear on the map and occasionally give an eerie Caw similar to how ravens appear on the map for Swain. Fiddle should have a direct taunt for Tahm Kench because even though they are both demons they are polar opposites Tahm prefers to charm his prey while Fiddle just terrifies his, also Fiddle is twig thin and Tahm is blubber fat. This is less of feedback and more of a favor, I know fiddle has like 7 voice lines but my absolute favorite is "I think I'll let you suffer for a while... " please let him keep that Quote, also I love the way some crows are nesting in his back in his splash you gotta keep that. I don't wanna overwhelm you but I have a lot more ideas if you would like to hear them.
1) No, more serious. Although there's something inherently goofy about his kit and that is still there. 2) No, but they are scarier.
: Do you know salad fingers :O? His character always reminds me of fiddlesticks, maybe he can inspire the voice acting? https://youtu.be/OWBFKL6H7rI And i actually really love the dance animation he already has a lot. especially since that stop effect if you stand still (so you can stop mid air while dancing :D) Also did the new fiddle design get inspired by The Shrike from Dan Simmons "Hyperion" ?
Love me some rusty spoons. This guy? https://youtu.be/nbtT-ZXXhQ4 nah.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainAntiHeroz,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=YaTZgEcA,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2019-10-22T00:58:29.802+0000) > > He kills people just so he can steal their guns, he has a gun collection, you gotta get Bandito Fiddlesticks recall have a gun rack that he checks yo Bandito Fiddlesticks should just be reworked into High Noon Fiddlesticks tbh.
Ever see Afro Samurai? Was just thinking about Justice...
: Does it wake you up at nights knowing that all Riot employees must have specifically "Riot" at the start of their name, preventing you from attaining the divine privilege of being named Rito Pls?
: For dance ideas I'd like to suggest something inspired by the "I've got no strings" dance in Pinocchio: https://youtu.be/iAykOz1gWi4 Particularly the part of the dance where he's kicking his legs as he dances side to side.
The other day I realised Jiminy Cricket was probably a religious metaphor. J.C. is his conscience... This was probably obvious to most people.
mzicio (EUW)
: How about something from The Nightmare before Christmas? Xin Zhao and Lee Sin's dance animations are adapted from a movie sequence, I think it could be done equally well. [I think this specific part](https://youtu.be/kGiYxCUAhks?t=143) would look amazing on the new Fiddle, since he's tall and long as heck.
Wow, he could even eat his little lantern :O
: This dance would be perfect for Fiddlesticks, especially for Pumpkinhead. I can imagine him first struggling to get his arm up, then just bursts into dancing like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4IC7qaNr7I Also that's awesome!! I think the best album for inspiration would be Gathered Blood and/or The Kingdom is on Fire if I can recommend. Gathered Blood is Lovecraft-inspired with some apocalyptic themes while Kingdom is on Fire is more Death Country. As a matter of fact, check out all of their albums, they're on Bandcamp and iTunes.
: This dance would be perfect for Fiddlesticks, especially for Pumpkinhead. I can imagine him first struggling to get his arm up, then just bursts into dancing like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4IC7qaNr7I Also that's awesome!! I think the best album for inspiration would be Gathered Blood and/or The Kingdom is on Fire if I can recommend. Gathered Blood is Lovecraft-inspired with some apocalyptic themes while Kingdom is on Fire is more Death Country. As a matter of fact, check out all of their albums, they're on Bandcamp and iTunes.
This video is 2spooky4me
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ilAO1nnd,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2019-10-18T16:54:12.192+0000) > > You all hit on everything we've been thinking in this thread <3 > > Another note on the metal - the twisting, creaking and scraping sounds and that sound of a wire under tension are things that I thought would make a really creepy sound palette! I don't want him to feel robotic and the animations will hopefully help with that, but I do want him to look like a demon that drew together the nastiest old farm materials it could find to make itself a body. > > If anyone has dance ideas I'd love to hear them. Thanks for the tip on Sons of Perdition! I love the Blackwater Godpel short; I remember watching it when working on High Noon Jhin. I have an idea, but I don't think that will work on base skin, but on suprise party skin, oh boy. PENNYWISE DANCE. INTRODUCING FIDDLESTICKS, THE DANCING CLOWN. Just think about it. EDIT: If he's a Demon thing, and you will expand his voice imitate from other champions, so why he couldn't imitate another champion dance too? It would look very creepy, twisted Fiddle texture and sorta his model, on other champion dance animation.
Haha great idea. Unfortunately the way animation works is it moves bones and pivot points within the character rig. Each character has their own rig with different bones in different places, so we can't copy animations in the same way.
: The New Fiddlesticks Design
You all hit on everything we've been thinking in this thread <3 Another note on the metal - the twisting, creaking and scraping sounds and that sound of a wire under tension are things that I thought would make a really creepy sound palette! I don't want him to feel robotic and the animations will hopefully help with that, but I do want him to look like a demon that drew together the nastiest old farm materials it could find to make itself a body. If anyone has dance ideas I'd love to hear them. Thanks for the tip on Sons of Perdition! I love the Blackwater Godpel short; I remember watching it when working on High Noon Jhin.
patmax17 (EUW)
: You are willingly not answering the question {{sticker:sona-playing}}
At the end of 'Lux' Sylas is here https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/comic/lux/issue-5/11/
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oKiuNn3Y,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-10-11T05:05:45.654+0000) > > I thought about it during his development. I thought a lot about all the champions and regions! > > If Sylas was born there he'd probably be Swain's right hand man - an assassin/rogue like Katarina perhaps. Being able to trace magic helps you not only hunt targets but spot magical traps, see through illusions and circumvent protection. It's sad really. You are right also that a powerful nation that embraces magic would make a useful ally for a band of rogue mages unwittingly camping on a secret vault of worldstones. > > Alas being in a dungeon for his entire adult life Sylas probably knows very little of Noxus (and I believe the factions encountered each other late enough there might not be many records in old books he had access to), and would be immediately wary of any empire and their rhetoric. He's not exactly the trusting type. Swain would be all like 'In Noxus, strength is what decides who leads!' and Sylas would say 'And yet here I see at the top of the pile, a cripple who had to borrow his power...' > > Sylas' line about Noxus likely comes from a place or ignorance or at least indifference. I know it makes it confusing but I don't think you can always trust that our champions are speaking truthfully. Or with wisdom! Except Zoe. She has it all figured out. Is Sylas camping on top of the Petricite Vault Ryze uses?
The petricite forest is outside the city of Demacia, it was there before the city and people fleeing the rune wars settled there because of the trees anti-magic nature. It makes sense Ryze would hide them there because no one can sense their magic beneath the petricite and the vault can only be accessed with his ultimate ability.
: People tend to forget that Sylas isn't JUST against Demacian anti-mage policy. It's the anti-mage policy influenced by Demacias' social classes. Like in the Vietnam War people weren't just against the war, but pointed out the clear hypocrisy of only the poor being drafted. "Ain't no senators' son" {{sticker:sona-playing}} Noxus is becoming a meritocracy but still has nobility that probably don't like Swains' reforms and want an emperor they can back that will reward first them before all the rest of the rabble. That's why the nobility make up the crux of The Black Roses' pawns. Sylas probably wouldn't like them very much.
Spot on in my opinion. The treatment of mages is only a symptom of the class structure in Demacia.
: Would Sylas ever team up with Noxus?
I thought about it during his development. I thought a lot about all the champions and regions! If Sylas was born there he'd probably be Swain's right hand man - an assassin/rogue like Katarina perhaps. Being able to trace magic helps you not only hunt targets but spot magical traps, see through illusions and circumvent protection. It's sad really. You are right also that a powerful nation that embraces magic would make a useful ally for a band of rogue mages unwittingly camping on a secret vault of worldstones. Alas being in a dungeon for his entire adult life Sylas probably knows very little of Noxus (and I believe the factions encountered each other late enough there might not be many records in old books he had access to), and would be immediately wary of any empire and their rhetoric. He's not exactly the trusting type. Swain would be all like 'In Noxus, strength is what decides who leads!' and Sylas would say 'And yet here I see at the top of the pile, a cripple who had to borrow his power...' Sylas' line about Noxus likely comes from a place or ignorance or at least indifference. I know it makes it confusing but I don't think you can always trust that our champions are speaking truthfully. Or with wisdom! Except Zoe. She has it all figured out.
: Future you needs to come back to this
I didn't forget about the key either >:)
Larriet (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2AKc2cI,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-07T21:16:16.353+0000) > > I worked on them with a few new concept artists sort of like an editor. It was really fun and I think it's a great way to foster new talent :) He is … really hunky now, thank you {{sticker:sg-jinx}}
> [{quoted}](name=Larriet,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2AKc2cI,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-08T01:30:11.999+0000) > > He is … really hunky now, thank you > {{sticker:sg-jinx}} Hey thanks for saying so you made my day! I hope everyone really enjoys Morde 2.0 (and I hope the skins team make a new high tier skin for him soon plz plz plz)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2AKc2cI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T22:59:12.919+0000) > > I'm not a splash artist, although I did about 40% of the Cowgirl MF updated splash :P Concept artist work on the visual design of a champion, splash artists are illustrators that make the amazing key art at the end of the development process (sometimes a year after the concept artist started). > > I have however worked on the visual design for Zoe, Sylas, and Mordekaiser 2.0 as well as a ton of skins dating back to DJ Sona. Kind of off-topic but you did an amazing job on Mordekaiser. Say, did you also conceptualize his updated skins?
> [{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2AKc2cI,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T23:56:50.062+0000) > > Kind of off-topic but you did an amazing job on Mordekaiser. > > Say, did you also conceptualize his updated skins? I worked on them with a few new concept artists sort of like an editor. It was really fun and I think it's a great way to foster new talent :)
Parznip (NA)
: My Hopes For Fiddlesticks's Rework
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this write-up. I'm happy to say that our initial conversations around Fiddlesticks have trended in this direction, especially about keeping his origins a mystery. I've been doing my best to read every last opinion posted her and on reddit about our quirky bundle and I really feel like we are on the right track. Keep an eye out for the next update and keep letting us know how you think it's coming together >:D
: They put a pretty good team together for Fiddle. Squad5 was the Lead Designer for {{champion:516}} {{champion:427}} & {{champion:517}} . Considering how much I enjoy playing Ivern & Ornn (Lv7 with both of them), I wonder what kind of tricks he has up his sleeve for Fiddle. ------------------ Kindlejack has worked on ALOT of splasharts over the years & sounds extremely excited to be working on Fiddlesticks (I don't blame him, Fiddle has SO MUCH room for improvement). He's even created 21 different prototypes for Fiddlesticks rework. https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/05_Fiddlesticks_zkz95ztjhj8v1qcfgiqy.jpg ----------------- CarnivalKnights worked on the naratives for multiple skin lines, such as Battle Academia & the God Kings (Vs 2018). As you mentioned, there's not a whole lot going on for Fiddles at the moment. Right now, he seems like a Vengeful Ghost that maliciously stalks & hunts those that enter his domain. Interested to see if we could expand on that just a little bit; - Who was this guy before he became the "Horror from the Cornfield" he is today? - Was he just a Harmless farmer that was wrongly persecuted for a crime he didn't commit or was he as malicious in life as he was in death (undeath/construct?). -------- Either way, this is a Rework I'm extremely excited for as well. Will definitely be looking forward to any update posts regarding Fiddles & Volibear in the near future. https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/027/666/download_(1).jpg
I'm not a splash artist, although I did about 40% of the Cowgirl MF updated splash :P Concept artist work on the visual design of a champion, splash artists are illustrators that make the amazing key art at the end of the development process (sometimes a year after the concept artist started). I have however worked on the visual design for Zoe, Sylas, and Mordekaiser 2.0 as well as a ton of skins dating back to DJ Sona.
Fönikku (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ouG0E4uf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-05T07:07:05.641+0000) > > A lot of champion designs begin with an opportunity space such as Pyke being a support-assassin, or a gameplay hook like Camille's literal hooks. In those cases there's already some pretty solid leads for visual exploration around what those champions are doing. Once we get to agreeing on a faction or role for the champ (Bildgewater spear-fisher, Piltover secret agent) it starts becoming very clear what kind of weapons they might have access to. > > Other times we could start by looking at what exciting fantasy weapons we haven't already explored in LoL. I have a big book on my desk called 'Weapon', it's got everything in it! I will say if you take a look at a list of projectile-weapons we've covered almost all of them, we even played with the idea of a [slingshot](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YaBqgX) for Neeko. Next ADC is gonna have to just throw rocks... oh wait! {{champion:163}}! > > In terms of priority, we've gotten pretty good at a very collaborative workflow with art, design and narrative staying flexible and iterating to support the best ideas each discipline is bringing to the table. Sylas' lore and visual design began by being built around his ultimate and how it felt to use in playtests (opponent-reliant, intelligent, improvisational, very very cruel) which gave us the idea of a sinister mage held prisoner. Originally he had more of a [traditional caster look](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/jace-beleren) but on the narrative side the writers felt a Demacian mage held in secret would be best, and we wanted someone who looked just like Demacia's heroes ({{champion:59}} {{champion:86}}) to play foil without it becoming a Thor/Loki Jock/Nerd situation. Then once we saw these huge hefty chains in concept art a lot of his kit was tweaked or reworked to best utilise the whip-like restraints. > > League is an interesting case in terms of game design. Some of our best champions embody their weapons: Darius' kit is like a top 4 of things you can do with an Axe, even down to a passive that causes bleeding and the haft doing less damage than the head of the weapon. His personality is sharp an decisive, there's not a soft bone in his body! My favourite examples are {{champion:115}} and {{champion:254}}. Other champions are more of a fantasy trope ({{champion:10}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:2}}) and their weapons are secondary to the theme. Casters are generally very difficult, without clear real-world metaphors like a spear or a shield connecting gameplay to visuals can be much trickier but there are still ways to bring ideas together and not just Staff + VFX. I think {{champion:4}}, {{champion:26}} and {{champion:8}} are all good examples of finding a weapon for a mage that can inspire gameplay. Thank you for the detailed reply!
: About Kayn, is there a reason why you guys choose a fantasy scythe design over a more realistic and practical war scythe?
I didn't work on him, but I believe the idea to create a second Darkin Blade (or third with Varus) was settled on early in his development. And even though he doesn't use it much Fiddle has a traditional farming scythe.
: I do get the joke, but I'm actually interested in the serious answer. I suppose it's actually supposed to be a moon crescent? But why?
Oh sorry I thought you were just joking! Well Soraka is the 'Star Child' and her whole kit has a celestial theme. Her staff is shaped like a crescent moon so I suppose when they designed her the auto-attacks mimic the shape of her staff. I played a lot of fiddlesticks when I started and his auto-attacks have a similar crescent shape - because he has a ranged attack but his weapon is a scythe, there's a little imagination involved.
iiGazeii (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kindlejack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ouG0E4uf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-05T07:07:05.641+0000) > > A lot of champion designs begin with an opportunity space such as Pyke being a support-assassin, or a gameplay hook like Camille's literal hooks. In those cases there's already some pretty solid leads for visual exploration around what those champions are doing. Once we get to agreeing on a faction or role for the champ (Bildgewater spear-fisher, Piltover secret agent) it starts becoming very clear what kind of weapons they might have access to. > > Other times we could start by looking at what exciting fantasy weapons we haven't already explored in LoL. I have a big book on my desk called 'Weapon', it's got everything in it! I will say if you take a look at a list of projectile-weapons we've covered almost all of them, we even played with the idea of a [slingshot](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YaBqgX) for Neeko. Next ADC is gonna have to just throw rocks... oh wait! {{champion:163}}! > > In terms of priority, we've gotten pretty good at a very collaborative workflow with art, design and narrative staying flexible and iterating to support the best ideas each discipline is bringing to the table. Sylas' lore and visual design began by being built around his ultimate and how it felt to use in playtests (opponent-reliant, intelligent, improvisational, very very cruel) which gave us the idea of a sinister mage held prisoner. Originally he had more of a [traditional caster look](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/jace-beleren) but on the narrative side the writers felt a Demacian mage held in secret would be best, and we wanted someone who looked just like Demacia's heroes ({{champion:59}} {{champion:86}}) to play foil without it becoming a Thor/Loki Jock/Nerd situation. Then once we saw these huge hefty chains in concept art a lot of his kit was tweaked or reworked to best utilise the whip-like restraints. > > League is an interesting case in terms of game design. Some of our best champions embody their weapons: Darius' kit is like a top 4 of things you can do with an Axe, even down to a passive that causes bleeding and the haft doing less damage than the head of the weapon. His personality is sharp an decisive, there's not a soft bone in his body! My favourite examples are {{champion:115}} and {{champion:254}}. Other champions are more of a fantasy trope ({{champion:10}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:2}}) and their weapons are secondary to the theme. Casters are generally very difficult, without clear real-world metaphors like a spear or a shield connecting gameplay to visuals can be much trickier but there are still ways to bring ideas together and not just Staff + VFX. I think {{champion:4}}, {{champion:26}} and {{champion:8}} are all good examples of finding a weapon for a mage that can inspire gameplay. So how did {{champion:16}} get bananas?
Well we knew Soraka wasn't going to be dishing out a lot of damage, but the nutritious theme running throughout her kit necessitated an auto-attack high in not just vitamin B but also potassium. When we broke down the various fruits and which abilities lined up best with each, ultimately a combination of deduction and correlation lead us inextricably to said banan.
: Ah well, news to me! I 'know' them from their art account on Tumblr (https://snatti.tumblr.com is this familiar?). I always assumed snatti, or Atey as I suppose you know him by, was a 'she' based of his profile pic. Guess I'm wrong on all accounts!
He just joined our in-house team recently and we are so happy to have him. He's incredible!
Fönikku (EUW)
: @Riot, How do you choose your weapons?
A lot of champion designs begin with an opportunity space such as Pyke being a support-assassin, or a gameplay hook like Camille's literal hooks. In those cases there's already some pretty solid leads for visual exploration around what those champions are doing. Once we get to agreeing on a faction or role for the champ (Bildgewater spear-fisher, Piltover secret agent) it starts becoming very clear what kind of weapons they might have access to. Other times we could start by looking at what exciting fantasy weapons we haven't already explored in LoL. I have a big book on my desk called 'Weapon', it's got everything in it! I will say if you take a look at a list of projectile-weapons we've covered almost all of them, we even played with the idea of a [slingshot](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YaBqgX) for Neeko. Next ADC is gonna have to just throw rocks... oh wait! {{champion:163}}! In terms of priority, we've gotten pretty good at a very collaborative workflow with art, design and narrative staying flexible and iterating to support the best ideas each discipline is bringing to the table. Sylas' lore and visual design began by being built around his ultimate and how it felt to use in playtests (opponent-reliant, intelligent, improvisational, very very cruel) which gave us the idea of a sinister mage held prisoner. Originally he had more of a [traditional caster look](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/jace-beleren) but on the narrative side the writers felt a Demacian mage held in secret would be best, and we wanted someone who looked just like Demacia's heroes ({{champion:59}} {{champion:86}}) to play foil without it becoming a Thor/Loki Jock/Nerd situation. Then once we saw these huge hefty chains in concept art a lot of his kit was tweaked or reworked to best utilise the whip-like restraints. League is an interesting case in terms of game design. Some of our best champions embody their weapons: Darius' kit is like a top 4 of things you can do with an Axe, even down to a passive that causes bleeding and the haft doing less damage than the head of the weapon. His personality is sharp an decisive, there's not a soft bone in his body! My favourite examples are {{champion:115}} and {{champion:254}}. Other champions are more of a fantasy trope ({{champion:10}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:2}}) and their weapons are secondary to the theme. Casters are generally very difficult, without clear real-world metaphors like a spear or a shield connecting gameplay to visuals can be much trickier but there are still ways to bring ideas together and not just Staff + VFX. I think {{champion:4}}, {{champion:26}} and {{champion:8}} are all good examples of finding a weapon for a mage that can inspire gameplay.
: Uhhh... not everyone who do the art even go to HQ to work. I know who did the splash arts for the Battle Academia Katarina and Transcended Kayle and she doesn't live in SoCal.
: I don't see the blue in him at all honestly. If we were to add a 2nd color it would be either Mardu or Jund
Ah but that's just what a blue character would want you to think.
: Considering he took advantage of Lux, manipulated her, and probably got her in a lot of trouble in the process, I'm going to say he's definitely black. I'm assuming Lux is dead in canon based on how his story portrayed Demancia. So he's probably Grixis. Just like bolas.
The best villains are Grixis so I'm cool with this. But did he manipulate Lux, or was he being honest? And given the chance would he protect her? You can hurt people without being black, imo it's about how you feel when you do it.
: Sylas at the bare minimum is core red. The rebellious nature, his opposition to authority, and him lashing out emotionally at the organization (demacia) who he believes wronged him really paint a similar picture to Chandra. However, he also is 100% willing to manipulate anyone he thinks he needs to achieve his goals. He also manipulates his own allies to keep them loyal to his cause (you either execute this noble and his paid guards, or you cant join my cause and have to go back to oppression). This shows he does not really care about the people under him and is actuality more focused on his own goals and revenge. So I think Black is a very solid secondary. So overall I would say Sylas is a solidly Rakdos character....you could make an argument for Jund by adding green and focusing on his desire to basically bring down government and live in a more anarchistic way (every demacian a king). If he was less transparent about his lack of care for the people under him and willingless to use and manipulate them id call him Gruul.
I agree about the red core, but I think it's yet to be seen whether he leans white, green or black - he seems to play things close to his chest and it could really come down to his true motivation. As for my card design being UR; he's supremely intelligent, can sense magic in all things, counters all enemy magic by draining their mana, copies his enemies spells, read every book he ever got his hands on then improvised and experimented until he created his own style of casting and extremely creative in his improvisational fighting/warfare. As far as his abilities go I think he's undeniably blue.
: Neat, I personally haven't played MTG since, oh, I think the end of the Invasion Block. But the color wheel was always interesting. You make any other cards for your characters? I've a bit of a wonder on Pantheon. Atreus seems pretty Red/White as the standard soldier colors. But so far Pantheon seems pure White in kinda evil fascistic sense.
I've been slowly going through all the champs in Alphabetical order. But I had to make an exception when [Zoe](https://twitter.com/Kindlejack/status/937499839427788800) was released and I'll probably do Morde and Panth when the updates launch as I worked on both of them! I think the one I'm most proud of is this retro [Mundo](https://twitter.com/Kindlejack/status/1018368530817810432).
: Well first, which version of the alignment system? They're all slightly (or even majorly) different. From the originals view where it's only a wilderness vs civilization dichotomy to the more nuanced and contradictory 3e. The current 5e's alignment is similar to 3e but they dealt with the more glaring contradictions by not bringing them up at all. In the original D&D, Sylas is Neutral. Because there are only two extremes: Chaotic and Lawful, where Lawful actually represents civilization and honor while Chaotic represents animalistic, monsters, and the wilderness. Sylas is not honorable but he's also not aligned with the goblins. So he's Neutral. In AD&D, Sylas is True Neutral. The version of the alignment system in AD&D is worded in such a way that intentions matter, so because Sylas' actions are motivated by the desire to do good, he is not evil. He's also not good, because murder. The Lawful/Chaos dichotomy wasn't changed from the original so he's still not aligned with the goblins, so he's Neutral. In 2e, Sylas is Neutral Evil. In 2e we see Neutrality (on the good/evil alignment) shift into a weird morally blank running on instinct definition that does not fit Sylas. Evil, however, is defined as just not being good. Where good is defined as honesty, forthrightness, forgiveness, and being charitable. None of which describe Sylas. So he's evil. Chaotic has finally shifted away from just being a stand in for monstrous and wilderness, so you'd think one would put Sylas as Chaotic, however, Chaotic Evil is really strangely tied with being self-defeating and of low intelligence. And while I may believe that Sylas' actions are kinda self-defeating, he isn't stupid. Neutral Evil, however, fits well enough. They have no problem betraying their friends for personal gain, is in the description which describes the big moments in his story. In 3e, Sylas is Chaotic Evil. So 3e is probably the alignment with the most written about it, and the most strange oddities and contradictions. Which fits 3e pretty well, I love it, but I also avoid using Grappling rules because I don't feel like reading through it every time. In any case, 3e makes a push for specific actions being what determines someone's alignment. With certain actions, such as murder, almost being worth "evil points" the same is true for "chaos" points. The intention does not really matter as much in 3e. And Sylas by my reckoning has lied and manipulated a lot (earning a bunch of chaos points as lying is a chaotic action), and murdered a lot of people that by our standards seem innocent (earning a lot of evil points). It's worth noting though, that, technically in this edition being Lawful does not mean following the government. But it does determine how someone can act to be in open rebellion. For example, Princess Leia from Star Wars was a rebel, she was also Lawful Good. Because she strived for order and honor within her rebellion and was trying to create a lawful society. Sylas isn't a rebel in that way. He seems to rule his rebellion through browbeating people, which also is a mark of Chaotic Evil. In 4e, Sylas is either Good or Evil. 4e's alignment is weird. It really goes Super Good, Good, Unconcerned, Evil, Super Evil. Sure Super Good is called Lawful Good, and Super Evil is called Chaotic Evil, but the nuance of what makes a lawful or chaotic character is gone. In any case, Sylas doesn't really fit the definitions of any alignment perfectly. Unaligned means specifically not taking a stand, Sylas very much does not fit that. Evil is described as using rules to maximize personal gain, and nope. Good meanwhile gives a brief passage about the dangers of following laws that exploit others which seems to fit Sylas well, until you get to the part of not harming the unarmed and defending weakness. And remember, Sylas is a murderer. So he doesn't fit that either. It really depends on which part of Sylas you wish to emphasize. Though, personally, I think he's too complicated to fit into 4es surprisingly restrictive and limited system. In 5e, Sylas is Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Good. So a return to the more interesting and complex alignments, however 5e does not seek to rigorously define everything about alignments and leaves a lot to player and GM interpretation. 5e's alignment is also a bit more motivated by the emotional state and meaning behind the actions taken than 3e was. We also kind of lose the, what I consider great, differentiation between Lawful and following the government. Now the description of Lawful in general does say that being lawful does not necessarily mean following the laws, but then literally every description of a lawful character defines them by following the laws of society. So, Sylas not Lawful. The intentionality really takes effect on the Good/Evil axis. So we get things like "Good is not nice" and "Chaotic Good try to help others, without care for what people think about their behavior" which, yeah that's Sylas. But Chaotic Evil "are destructive and take pride in the damage they cause" which, yeah that's Sylas. Amusingly, he does not fit the Chaotic Neutral alignment at all which is defined by whimsy and lacking maliciousness, which is not Sylas.
I agree with WAAARGHbobo this is really thorough and full of DnD love, and I totally agree with your assessments :) Also I love discussing stuff like alignment and [MtG colour philosophy](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pie-fights-2016-11-14) while we are developing [characters](https://twitter.com/Kindlejack/status/1089453748466769920).
: {{champion:80}} is ambidextrous thanks to his rigorous combat training which involved extensive practice with both hands. He is competent to fight using either hand to hold a weapon.
: I've held off creating this thread for too long... The Day Riot invited me to Playtest Mordekaiser
After reading your posts for so many years it was wonderful to meet you in person =)
Show more

Kindlejack

Level 138 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion