Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Just looking at your match history, here are the most glaring issues: * You use ignite _all the time_. Ignite is a great aggression tool, especially when you can counter healing, but you should not be using it every time. * Kill less as support. Obviously, you should make a kill if you can and everyone else can't, but the more gold going towards you, the less that goes towards the carries, who are infinitely more dependant on it to contribute in fights. * This is especially noticeable if you're trading kills. The carry that finishes a damage item sooner is more effective than a support finishing a support item sooner. * Stop picking weird supports in ranked... Like Darius, Aatrox, Quinn, Jayce, Talon, etc... Make sure you know what you're doing with them (and that they actually work) in normals first. If you insist upon being an AD in the support role, pick Pyke - he's actually good at it. * Don't build supports like carries. Damage items cost around a thousand more gold than support items; so for every two damage items, you can buy three support items. * Other build issues; You're neglecting boots, and I'm seeing a few really odd builds like hybrid AD/AP Lucian. Don't do that.
> [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4A8mEjz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-03T16:31:47.057+0000) > > Just looking at your match history, here are the most glaring issues: > > * You use ignite _all the time_. Ignite is a great aggression tool, especially when you can counter healing, but you should not be using it every time. > * Kill less as support. Obviously, you should make a kill if you can and everyone else can't, but the more gold going towards you, the less that goes towards the carries, who are infinitely more dependant on it to contribute in fights. > * This is especially noticeable if you're trading kills. The carry that finishes a damage item sooner is more effective than a support finishing a support item sooner. > * Stop picking weird supports in ranked... Like Darius, Aatrox, Quinn, Jayce, Talon, etc... Make sure you know what you're doing with them (and that they actually work) in normals first. If you insist upon being an AD in the support role, pick Pyke - he's actually good at it. > * Don't build supports like carries. Damage items cost around a thousand more gold than support items; so for every two damage items, you can buy three support items. > * Other build issues; You're neglecting boots, and I'm seeing a few really odd builds like hybrid AD/AP Lucian. Don't do that. 1. Good point. 2. The only kills I can take are the ones the AD didn't want and/or wasn't able to take, because -- at least in Bronze -- they serve as more of a meat-shield and less of an actual ally. I try to focus on trading fewer kills and *taking* fewer kills, though. 3. Talon and Ahri are legitimate. Aatrox, Quinn, Jayce, Darius, were things I've seen and wanted to try... but ended up disliking not just because they aren't useful, but because even when they are they're way too team-reliant to be any fun. So, yeah, they aren't that useful. 4. Most of the game I am the only hope of a carry (because, as far as I know, heal/shield bots aren't all that great at carrying 0/5 people) but... I'll try it. If it works out well, I'm going to say "I'm wrong, you're right, thank you." 5. Are boots that important that I can ignore Duskblade or a core item? They don't help me in the grand scheme of things; 45ms is only useful if I can use it to wipe a mistake clean, but I try not to make mistakes in the first place. Usually, I die because I wanted my AD to live... or because I positioned myself improperly. If someone is able to catch me, I don't think it matters if I have an added 45ms on top of the 330-350 base: usually, they have dashes and slows and CC, and movement speed doesn't help w/ that. Exceptions exist, like if I'm fighting Blitz, Pyke, Syndra, or any skillshot-reliant champion.
: Don’t play league, can’t be bronze if you don’t play Ward and make sure to cover the important places and paths so at least you can leave and if your adc sees you leave they might back off. Roam as a Support and apply pressure to all the lanes, just the threat that you might come mid or top usually makes people do less risky plays especially once they notice you coming there over and over
> [{quoted}](name=Polaris I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4A8mEjz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-03T01:31:09.321+0000) > > Don’t play league, can’t be bronze if you don’t play > > Ward and make sure to cover the important places and paths so at least you can leave and if your adc sees you leave they might back off. Roam as a Support and apply pressure to all the lanes, just the threat that you might come mid or top usually makes people do less risky plays especially once they notice you coming there over and over I do just that, actually. It's why I have such a nice KDA, and I even take it a step further by being a huge dick to the Mid: I come in through the pathways north and south of the bush so they don't see me... and then, they die!
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Kai Guy (NA)
: > is because of their prioritization on shortening the queue-time. I think we even agree, don't we? I do agree with you on this but its my bias. I feel that riot likely does make que time priority higher then what I think a fair quality would be. I cant prove it, i wont claim its 100% true. I strongly feel its accurate. I also feel pretty negatively to Positional MM. It just adds more chaos and makes Tiers even less accurate then they already are. I have had players tell me that Positional was scrapped for D and up... but I have not seen a red post or dev blog about it. I do know that Positional Que was scrapped and wont roll out but the Positional MM Looks to still be in action, I have seen conflicting player info on what parts of the ladder its in thou. With MMR Matchmaking your going to run into players above your Tier. Untill your MMR and LP gains are the same value there's going to always be a gap between division and Assigned MMR if your climbing. Im trying to help folks understand why, not just LULZ YOUR WRONG DUMMY. So, lets go back to Sapmagic. If riot as Devs decided hey we don't like the Range of MMR for X division. They can shift it, the entire Tier system can move around . I'm not 100% on how Riot makes LP gains, what I personally would do so that Tiers have any actual meaning is set each Tier as a Range of MMR values I want that Tier to represent when accurate. Once an account hits low uncertainty and is hovering at 50%, their MMR value should reflect the Tiers Range I want represented. This matters because if I go and buy a challenger account, Yea I have an account In challenger I can log into and play but there Is no way in hell im that level of skill. I don't magicaly become better because my Tier, its misleading when its inaccurate. I admit, this is a bit devious because i expect that people are going to treat each division as the same value. They wont think about uncertainty, they see 1,2,3,4 they think equal value, But looking at player distribution by Tiers I don't think that's the case. I don't see anything stopping me from making Tier 1 a range of 150 MMR But Tier 2 could be 250. ^ 100% that I might be wrong, just don't see any reason I couldn't do this. If some one can or does please correct me on it. Riot might have made each Tier the same overall value of Ranges besides the very top and very bottom. So if riot wanted to shift the range D4 represents. Should they add to the top end of that divisions range and then it will push the rest of them above it up farther. Result of this should be the MMR required to see accelerated LP gains goes up and the # of players seeing lowered gains goes up as a result. Influx of lower LP gains being the topic at hand. That's... fine because I don't really care about Tiers until they are accurate representations by having low uncertainty. but if riot Slants K factors? That sucks. That's just gross. You could fix your MMR gains even if your losing more LP then you get by maintaining a positive win rate with time. Slanted K you HAVE to maintain better then just a positive win rate to get MMR gains. The entire point of using an Elo derivative system is so players can prove where they belong off consistency of play. > If you want a genuine suggestion on how to upset people less... You're trying to tell people they're wrong, instead of guiding the discussion and it's people onto the right path. You're better than that. Convince them that you're right, not that they're wrong. It works well. :) I feel like I am making that effort pretty consistently. Look around this thread and see how many times I Pop up. Put a lot of effort into walking people over the topic and am doing my best to remain approachable and helpful. > I called you 'smart' for a reason; you are smart, but you shouldn't be using it just to tell people how wrong I actively dislike that term for the exact reason your listing. "I am smarter then you thus know better." Look,I struggle with concepts and invest time and effort to get them, stuff that sometimes comes very naturally to others with very little effort. I am stubborn and curious. I enjoy learning. I can own up when I get something wrong. Its a matter of interests not intelligence. I find this kind of variable math system cool. Seeing a formula translate into a sentence translate into a functional system is crazy, its like a puzzle. Also, screw any one who makes an argument that "your just to dumb to get it." Not everybody is willing to learn but you should be able to get basic concepts conveyed to others. I object strongly to going around on a message board puffing out my chest telling people how smart I am. I usually want to throw a brick at those type of folks, in life or onlineand i'm pretty shure that's a common sentiment.
I need to make my point clear, since... it's all I have to add; LP being lopsided for *anyone* is a problem when LP is a direct component in the matchmaking at times. No, I don't have any proof (and there's no easy way to get any, in fact -- Riot doesn't let people take a look at the source code for the matchmaking) but I do have evidence: the vast difference in quality, leagues and divisions that you'll find when you enter a promotional match, or a match found for you within 10 seconds. I call people "smart" because I think they deserve it. It's a matter of opinion; being "smart" in any way is a matter of relativity, because everyone has subjectively different experiences in life and, so, when confronted with something they may not know, may not understand or just genuinely appreciate the difference of, they may use any number of things as an honorific to describe their appreciation. I used "smart", bite me for it. I don't care for calling people "a fucking idiot" or something derogatory until they start to jump into logical fallacies to make their point stronger, misrepresenting my argument or attacking me instead of my point. I *hate* the type of person whose an arrogant asshead about how brilliant they are, and I hate the type of people who won't hold a discussion with someone because they think, and I quote... >"you're just too dumb to get it." ...because, know it or not, it's kind of arrogant to think that someone who may just disagree with you is "dumb" *because they disagree with you.* The irony is it's a fallacy on it's own!
Kai Guy (NA)
: > As genuinely smart as you are, Let me stop you here. I am not excessively smart. So please, lets avoid that as an assumption or statement. A fair and accurate statement instead would be that I am stubborn and curious. I have made far to many mistakes over the years and the truth is that I don't have a flawless understanding on the topic. I don't think its arrogant to claim I get MMR better then some one who does not understand what a K factor is. Becuase that kind of player has not even done a single Google search about the topic. Also I don't think its unfair for me to dislike players who are effectively demanding Riot rig the MM system by either exclusively providing them with strong teammates or Knee capping good players by balancing their win rates with players to drag it down to 50%. Its painful how many folks don't get that their demands to have high win % players on their team are effectively asking for Riot to punish any one with a high win % in a thread that's literally complaining about a forced 50% win rate. I do get why not everbody is willing to engage with me thou. If you show that you care and show some logic I will do my best to be fair to you. Its the best I can do. Moveing on. First up, trust it as much as you trust the devs but Riots claim is > so sometimes teams can have very slight skill differences (on average, no more than 4-5 MMR). [Sause](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954) so your example should honestly not happen according to both Riot and a Fair MMR system as far as I have seen them. Its a unfair team. Yea... theoretically MM does always have to make a match and some where in the mix this could be the way it has to go... but if it did you wont see the same MMR adjusments. K factor traditionally is not the same for all accounts even In the same MMR range. Making each team only run 1 adjustment screw it all up. You can not port 1v1 Elo to 5v5 systems. the Adjustment formula needs to be run 10 separate times in direct relation to a players history. Its not Zero sum. The situation your describing is not good. Its bad MM. You need to avoid it. the odds of what your discussing happening should be almost non existent due to K and We. Riot does not always do things the on paper fair way. I am going to call them out every single time I can see this. I want a better game for everbody. I don't want to just off hand dismiss players but for fucks sake is it really so unfair for me to ask people to atleast understand Elo's adjustment formula befor they open their mouths on the topic of MMR? Rn=Ro+K(W-We). This math translates to English when you fill it in. Adjustment happens at the end of a match. Rn= Rating New. Ro = Rating Old. K = uncertainty variable. This is made off # of games and position on ladder. W = win or Loss. We = system expectations on match being a Win or loss. For Leauge that Adjustment needs to be tracked 10 separate times at a match end and riot might honestly add more variables I don't even know about. Lp is slower then MMR.I don't think that's a BS statement. I think there is more then enough data gathered by players to make this claim and that its commonly reflected in the Ladder. I get hella downvotes because I bluntly tell folks they are wrong. Look so i suck at makeing this statment less abrasive but honestly a lot of the time they are. So what the hell should I do? The fact is that Players most the time only take their good games as their normal performance and off games are usually (according to them) just from hard counters, smurfs, or bad teammates, Shit man I myself am personaly aware of this bias and probably STILL overvalue my personal skill. I don't have a good solution to it. I try to let players know that MMR is a range, MMR value when 100% accurate is your Mean performance. But dude, Get this, It will literally change from 100% accurate to Inaccurate if you play 1 more game. Win or lose it wont be that 100% value. Its not about perfection, its about a workable system. Back to the whole I mess up. I don't fully undesrstand how We is made. I intend to study more. To check myself on it, to look for answeres. I will do my best to help everbody and save other players time if they honestly want to know about systems. But... it does not honestly look like that's the case here. Most people don't want a fair system, the want the system to favor and reward them personally. It wont, that's not what objective systems do. Is there any better way of explaining this? Players who constantly make statements that remove personal skill from the equation and make Ladder ranke about luck get upvotes despite the fact its fucking clear what happens when smurfs and purchased accounts show up on the ladder? I hate when I see that. Pleas, you or any one who reads this wall. Call me out if im wrong. Quepha is a good example of some one who makes me have to check myself. They though I was talkinga bout K factor when it was We.So they are incorrect slightly on the response but I might be wrong about We, thats worth me looking into and discussing so I am more accurate in the future for conversations. Hell man You calling me out for treating downvoters like they are just salty is also 100% fair. That's not what I intend here. Its not what I want. I don't wish to dismiss others opinions I just want people to actualy have some basic understanding on the topic before they mouth off. inflation is a potential issue in Elo. So... for similar reasons it should be an issue in Elo derivative systems. Anyhow back to you specifically. > if you lose 30 LP on a loss and gain 15 on a win, you'd need to win 75% of your games to climb. It isn't reasonable I agree 100% but only if the context is right. If your MMR value is higher or equal to your assigned Tier that is unreasonable. Thats a Slanted LP gain.... as LP tends to move Lower then MMR that looks to likely imply a Slanted K factor. Slanted forces players to move in 1 direction and its completely fucked in higher MMR Tiers, Just my opinion. A lower K is all you need to slow players climb. That treats them the same win or lose. That seems fair. Slanted? Unfair... Imo. The only place a slanted gain is possibly not damaging is for the lower end of the ladder because it pushes accounts trying to lose into a range away from people who are less skilled but want to win... But honestly FK that... people who only try to lose should usualy show up as toxic behavior and the games better off with them getting banned. Yet players don't demand Riot improve player behaviuor systems despite all the tilt about Trolls, inter, flamers, and folks who give up. Thats a system that could get hella better far as I can see. I mean it man, Please. Call me out, Ask for clarity. I want to help. I am trying to get players to learn so that boards can honestly move on and addresses actual problems with riots system. Duoing is garbage despite how popular it is. The competitive ingenuity of the game only goes up if Riot would change it to be off the same MMR range MM considers fair. Adding the effort to protect accounts by Matching K factors for teams makes for closer games when K is lower Fine I get that high uncertainty accounts need to play and that its a compelat shitshow if they all show up in 1 game. But As a low uncertainty account is there any reason to not add protection after every time your stuck in a high uncertainty game? We do it for auto fill, whats wrong with having a 2-3 next games as low uncertainty as possible. Anyone speak up, Let me know, is it not worth 30-120 seconds of extra que time for a massive amount of the ladder to see better quality matches 3/4 games? I don't mind makeing this claim. Its a Fact that Riot can do better. Yet what most players bitch about is not going to remotely make things better. Its not about how "smart" I am, its just how the systems work. Check them out on your own, Please don't take my word for it as absolute truth but actually look into and study the topic yall. Info is out there, its not hard to find.
The LP gains and losses wouldn't matter much if people weren't also being put up against people of higher divisions to shorten queue-times, or being forced to deal with the cost of a low rank/league in their promotional matches, would it? It's not that much of a stretch to think that the general game quality -- and all of the derivatives like the "MegaLUL 5 Gold vs. 5 Silver guess who won" posts -- is because of their prioritization on shortening the queue-time. I think we even agree, don't we? >Let me know, is it not worth 30-120 seconds of extra que time for a massive amount of the ladder to see better quality matches 3/4 games? It's not just that the LP system is broken in and of itself, though; the entire purpose of the LP system was to show you your progress in a more tangible manner, which it kinda' flops at right now/ I don't think you're wrong, I think that you... like everyone else... may be focusing on the wrong discussion. Remember that everyone says something for their own justified reasons -- the only people who want to be right for their own benefit to the exclusion of all else are psychopaths and to a lesser degree, sociopaths. If you want a genuine suggestion on how to upset people less... You're trying to tell people they're wrong, instead of guiding the discussion and it's people onto the right path. You're better than that. Convince them that you're right, not that they're wrong. It works well. :) I called you 'smart' for a reason; you are smart, but you shouldn't be using it just to tell people how wrong they are. You have the solutions to their problems. I hope you know that.
Kai Guy (NA)
: There are a lot of reasons to do this in a Rating system. Take a look at my post in this thread and let me know if anything's confusing or I am unclear.Its been done in Rating players for chess for ages. Its not a Riot exclusive Decision, Very least it seems to go back to 1960 in chess. So, Sap is not lying. Its largely to do with keeping Integrity for the top end of competitive ladders. There is so much ignorance on the topic of MMR its honestly a bit frustrating.
As genuinely smart as you are, it'd be a bad idea to dismiss all of the downvotes as 'people being salty.' The matchmaking itself makes sense, but think of this: if you lose 30 LP on a loss and gain 15 on a win, you'd need to win 75% of your games to climb. It isn't reasonable. One of those two people (or five of those ten people) will lose double the MMR the other person or set of people won. Now, imagine this set of MMR brackets; [1,250,1,250,1,250,1,250,1,250] vs. [1,250][1,250][1,250][1,250][1,350] and lets say the team with the [1,350] won. One team lost 100 MMR/ea. The other gained 50/ea. The brackets now look like [1,150][1,150][1,150][1,150][1,150] and [1,300][1,300][1,300][1,300][1,400] This is a problem because, in a game of five people, that is a loss of a total of 250 MMR despite the teams being almost entirely equal, _save for one single individual person._ This **could** work in a singular setting where someone eventually gets to the MMR bracket that they just dumpster the opposition and end up back at their baseline MMR, but this is a problem in a game where there are nine other people who aren't ultra-omega-l33t who still ended up with a net loss of MMR for no reason other than "omegalul competition just like the U.S cable companies." It's fucking stupid. The matchmaking _itself_ isn't a problem, but the way it handles MMR/LP distribution sure is a problem. Before you say "Yeah, that's MMR, but not LP", look at how the game handles LP distribution and matchmaking. LP is a part of it, _especially up against other D+ players, and especially in promotional matches where it uses your actual division._
Kai Guy (NA)
: Please, I encourage you, make your counter arguments. If you have one and its valid I will adjust my view, if I can prove that your argument is not valid I shall do so and take as much time as you need to understand why. I don't mind being wrong. Learn, adapt, move on. I have been wrong about a lot of things and I find life to be better when you learn from mistakes rather then defend them. I told you clearly, I will treat you In good faith. I hope you can extend me the same courtesy. I am open with folks but the way I tend to go about this is by being blunt and often abrasive. This upsets a lot of people but I don't really know how to tactfully go about disproving some one whos wrong with out literally explain to them why they are wrong. I will actively correct myself when I am wrong, This can be if i am proven to be incorrect by others or in situations that when I discover new information on my own that contradicts what I believe. I will adapt. I don't get mad if I'm the one who proves myself wrong. Like literally I used to tell folks your favored 20% to win more games then lose because of Feeders/bad players but after doing the math I believe that was inaccurate so now I have to tell folks now that it looks more like that value is 11.11%. Probability is funky so shit, I could still be incorrect about this. End of the day what's accurate is that because you occupie a slot of your team, as long as your not the worst player in a match the odds are higher they will be on the other side. I think 11.11% is right as its 4/9 vs 5/9 odds and thus 11.11% is each slot value so the extra slot on enemy team should be 11.11% Look, im a dick to folks who spout garbage because I studied MMR and Elo systems. I literally own Arpad Elos fucking book on the topic of him making the rating system that details nearly 20 years of it being in action. I looked into and studied a lot of Rating systems, Trueskill, MMR, Glicko. I use more then just anecdotal evidence. Yet I admit I will throw mine into some ones face to prove a point. (70%+ win rates as a support main in MMR ranges below what my best Tier tends to be. Support carrying to gold or plat mmr for 6 years now.) End of the day, any player who makes a comment about MMR systems but does not know WTF K factor represents? They literally have not idea WTF they are talking about. If you don't know this term, you need to google Elo and MMR. That not about me just be being a prick, its a core part of the OG Elo adjustment formula. I mean hell, most folks who call it E. L. O are wrong, its not a god dam anagram for anything. It was named after the dude who made it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6hrljjvK6A&feature=youtu.be if you want it pronounced correctly. (fun fact, he did not name it after himself, but as he put in so much work and was synonymous with the system that his name became common place term to just call it Elo system and Elo points. Over the years people only seeing it in Text not speech got it to become ELO as we hear it often. Fun fact, It took Arpad 17 years to formally acknowledge and call the system Elo, prior to his book released on Jul 03, 1978 he had personally called it "the USCF Rating System" Or " The International rating System.) So most folks who bitch about MMR don't understand the changes made to Elo system and further have a shit understanding of what Elo system is. This is why I was so blatantly disdainfully for any one stupid enough to try and argue "BUT KAI ITS MADE 4 CHESS U DUMMY!" I can literally walk you over what your changes do that does not comply with the principles of a functional MMR system. Look, Tiers move slower then MMR. This is pretty commonly accepted by all players and shows up very clearly in people with high win rates. Its not a guess. You want MM to pull for a single division? How well do you think that's going to work in MMR tiers that represent less then 1% of the games player base? Where are you accounting for duoing my man? I am always happy to talk about how to make Leauge a better game. I am 100% supportive of things that make the player experience better. I truly want folks to have fun, to play and enjoy playing. Its a video game, if you don't fucking enjoy it then honesty whats the god damm point? So once more. I don't like duoing because its off tiers not MMR values. As I stated the Range for tiers allowed by riot for duoing is WAY to high. On the flip side, Again. Not a fan of ignorance comments.I don't like folks whining about win % of teammates. The demand speople make to fix "Rigged MM" would literally rig match making. If this change is adopted it blatently punishes players with good win rates. Oh you do well? good win %? Bummer guy, because some idiot does not understand how RNG favors them in law of large numbers systems they demand Riot fixes their "Rigged forced 50% win rate system" The ask for a system that's literally trying to create Rigged 50% teams. Brilliant fucking move that. Yall Played yourself and so I dont think its unreasonable for me to feel any and all the people who ask for this are god damm idiots. How else whould i treat it when this action literally fks players with good win rates over yet is the morecommon boards demand for MM to accomplish? **I hope you read this post, Ima bold this bit to hopefully get your attention and convince you to take the time to read this post in its entirety. Your really not as bad as those guys. So although I don't like you suggestions and feel they don't meet expectations to how you have a functional MMR system BUT I truly think your coming from a stand point of caring about the game and caring about the player experience rather then looking for a hand out on winning more or an excuse why your not higher on the ladder. That's more enough for me to want to treat you in good faith. I do often draw lines in the sand to make a point but please if you have a good counter argument present it. It will stand on its own merit or I can pick it apart and will take the time to not be a prick to you because I think your honestly some one who cares**. I'm often excessively confrontationally but you seem to care and not be some dumbass tilted FOTM bandwagon poster. I want to treat you with respect. I am disdainful to a lot of folks... I don't want you to think this is directed at you personally.I will never tell you your wrong with out some backing or being very clear that its just in my opinion. If I say you your wrong. I will take the time to explain why until your satisfied or unwilling to talk further.
I got myself banned from League, and yet I came back just to see your reply... and to reply to you, because _**holy fuck someone interested in discussion on the topic, OH HOLY FUCK.**_ (It isn't sarcasm. You may have had the same experience; People not into any discourse, etc.) You're right, duoing with my system would be severely... fucked, I guess. I think a better way to go about it would be to only allow matchmaking +-1 league, still without exception, and just to pit you up against other duos (Flex does it, I know it's possible!) because they'll have the same benefit for synergy as you do. As for the non-duo matchmaking, I don't know how limiting it to *only* one division ahead and behind you would influence anything beyond making sure that Silvers on a win-streak don't fight Diamonds, and Diamonds on a loss-streak don't fight Silvers. I do think it'd bias the results in a loose way, but not allowing a SIlver with the same MMR as a Diamond to duo with the Diamond already does that! I think a good alternative might be to remove the League system entirely and to show bare MMR so people no longer complain (OR have proven, visible right to if the matchmaking acts funky) since it doesn't really serve the purpose it once did, anymore. I mean, it already limits the cool stuff you can get based on League, so what's the purpose other than a grindwall that also frustrates people with _on-the-surface_ unfair and biased matchmaking? Being able to see why you're matched against the Diamond you're matched against would be a great start to making it feel **fair.** I guess I'm in the end arguing from the perspective of someone who knows what it feels like to be put against some super high-tier opponent, and have that feeling of "Oh, you just wanted me to lose, huh?" wash over me. It's not a good feeling; It's pretty boring, and it makes you want to stop playing, because most competitive gamers play competitive games for... competition, not a ROFLstomp. Addendum: I know the purpose of the League system is to provide stability, but it doesn't even do that if it matches based on MMR alone. It's window-dressing, at most.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Its not broken, system works as intended. Improvmens can and should be made but meh. How duoing is done is fucked and its been that way forever. Yea it was worse when there was no ristrictions, but with Tiers being slower you can generate a range of players by having a low MMR silver 4 and high MMR gold 1 player respectively represent a Bronze MMR and Plat MMR. This range is about 80% of the playerbase, realistically this is an outlier but gold and silver will still be 30-60% ranges. I take issue with that. Riot adds other features for casual players, I take issue with that. Be blunt, tell them how things are, if they don't like it they can just not play. I just don't give a dam about the tilted players QQ threads. Look, MMR is not made to baby them and give them free wins. People beg for things that suck. So riots not in the clear imo. They can do better. The flip side is most boards post about MMR are uneducated piles of ignorance. how many times yall seen some variation of I WANT MY TEAMMATES TO HAVE GOOD WIN RATES WHY I GET BAD WIN RATE TEAMMATES. Cuz its random. For MMR to actively try and give you win% your asking the system to favor your account, Or to FK over high win % players by constantly looking to give them trashy teammates.RNG is not pure RNG there is a constant factor every single game. its you. Mismatches happen, some games cant be won. Oh well... move on. You should be willing to invest about 100-400 games a season if you really care about getting an accurate MMR value and Tier. You don't to bad, not enough data on you to matter. Statistical systems need data points for accuracy. you don't have enough? you don't have an accurate rating. not a big deal because the starting value tends to represent 50% so its never gonna let an account get to dramatically far and K factor slowdowns off MMR Tiers also contribute to sorting out luck. Mind you, I don't have riots system. I cant promise they use kfactor slowdowns off tiers... but they should and looking at Diamond 4 Peronsally i am pretty shure they do. There is no good reason not to do what pretty much every other MMR system does. I have to get to work now. I can walk you thru why your suggestion creates a higher skill gaps for MM ranges and would actively add more RNG for a MMR system if you want. I will do my best to keep that in good faith, I offer as You seem to actually care rather then just be some one whining about getting stuck. People who are interested in learning are folks I enjoy conversations with. I wont be back for a while but I might hit ya up late night or tommrow if you want. Feel free to leave questions you have about MMR. Also, I strongly object to your claim that a support is difficult to climb with. I do it pretty much every year with off meta builds. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Kai%20Guy.
See? This is exactly what I meant; You're certain you're right without fault, and there was no point in me even trying to debate with you. You're exactly like the people you're trying to berate! Ugh. Humankind... It doesn't matter if you don't provide any actual counterarguments, you just say "You're wrong!" I can understand it if you don't have any to provide, and I can understand how hard it is to admit you may have something to think on. Good luck :/
Kai Guy (NA)
: > a lot of them I think are valid No. Not at all. A massive amount of them are by people completely oblivious to how MMR systems work. Your suggestion does not account for realistic expectations to have. There is not always enough players present queing at the same time to create small ranges. Duoing will break your suggestion. Match quality will go down every single time there is a player with uncertainty on their account in a game drastically because the MMR values are removed completely. It will wide then range of skill, not reduce it. Now, the expectation players should have, Tiers do not represent skill until there is a stable # of games played. This next statement is my oppenion and a rule of thumb I use, I Treat every account as uncertain until they have earned a Veterans badge in their division. Riot changed the starting MMR to be lower. This is going to shift the entire ranked ladder down, even with their "you wont get any lower then X division" feature. Riot added new tiers as well, so Previous seasons are not going to represent the same Percentiles of players as this year. The point of having LP was to hide from players who only lose MMR from their starting value. It feels less bad because LP gains/losses are lower then MMR. This also allows you to set K factors and this MMR gains/loses to a higher value with out creating a unrealistic expectation of skill. The benefit of higher adjustments is a reduction in overall number of games to place players into a reasonable range for MM to pull them from. Duoing is inherently a issue in how its implemented off Tiers not MMR but instead of people posting about adjusting the implementation of duoing you see folks incorrectly assume MMR is magic and knows player skill from game 1 and also is clairvoyant in its ability to predict things like OTP getting their pick taken or banned, First timeing a champion out of the blue, or just being tilted AF. The chaos this season is not surprising at all if you study MMR a bit. New starting MM value for accounts (done for silver players complaining about newbies. y'all played yourself.) Positional Ques, (Done for casual players who wont learn multiple roles, champions, and are unwilling to abuse auto fill protection and rely on hope and luck instead. Kudos... y'all played yourself.) And the New tiers to make both lower and high MMR players feel there a bigger gap between themselves and the very bottom of the ladder. (just gives riot an opportunity to redistribute player percentile markers... which they could do during a soft reset as well. End of the day its a competitive ladder. you have X players and your account is Y position. Real talk here, the average player is expected to take ∞ games to reach the top in MMR.) Course folks don't actually want to hear any of this. Nobody wants to talka bout how any why MMR systems work and function if it wont support their ability to climb or an argument that its their teammates fault or the systems fault. Which to me, is kinda funny because they are well documented functional systems and yet folks constantly try to argue vs them with out even takeing a moment to study up on them prior. God I can only hope some one is foolish enough to try and use the "But its off Elo which was made for chess therefor it cant possibly work for league" in this thread. Also... your Games of ranked seem to be pretty fair. Silver,bronze, placement players on both teams. I only saw a gold player in your normal. Note that you have to go off how the system works so its off what MMR is currently assigned and that accounts are expected to be placed incorrectly but adjust over time to the correct range.
I appreciate that you took thought and time and put it into your reply, but you're coming at me from the perspective of someone who thinks it's fine as it is... when it's... not, given the volume of complaints _this season_ about the subject. I was here in S6, and it wasn't this bad. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't debate you on this because it's likely neither of us will change our stance. I want discussion, not someone kissing up to them and saying it's A-O.K. ...but... on the off chance you do want genuine discussion; > If the playerbase is so finite, a cause is the matchmaking... and not improving it ends in a negative feedback loop because the experience is so miserable no-one wants to play. > I know the point of LP is to make you feel more stable, but notice how I didn't say it'd be a good idea to remove LP entirely. I said it'd be a good idea to balance LP gains and losses permanently, and promote based on a mix of LP and MMR instead of one **or** the other. > People don't want to take time to discuss it for the same reason you don't; You look the exact same to them as they do to you: someone fervent on defending their position when neither side has any facts to support it, including source code. > I would like you to look at my last set of games and tell me it's my fault I lost. I had a part to play, but it doesn't mean much if the Midlaner's 2/6 and my ADC's first words in the lobby were "don't pick x you Bronze dipshit, no wonder you guys are Bronze." ...and if you want reasonable discussion knowing all of this... where do we start? The basis that none of us have any definitive proof of how the matchmaking works after they fucked with it? The basis that it's more miserable than it was for the general populace? You need to remember, there weren't this many complaints before their changes or the new season. If this was really about people trying to pin the blame on everyone else, then that factor wouldn't exist. But it does. You and I both know that isn't all there is to it. If you want to tell me "that's not how it works" then you're doing to me exactly what they've done to you: ignore an argument because it doesn't fit their own narrative. It kinda' makes it hard to find the truth :) Addendum: I'm not saying my games aren't 'balanced' (yeah, people've told me I'm just unlucky and I guess I buy that) but that's part of why I'm saying all of this. If it was someone else, people'd try to dismiss it the moment they could find a superficial reason to. "It's MMR! They belong there, going 24/1/4 like that and single-handedly carrying!"
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: it absolutely does not do that, i TESTED it before posting, and it does not proc 4 times
Alright then. It proccing even three times from Q and W is too much, nonetheless.
Quepha (NA)
: If Ezreal with Muramana is busted, why not just nerf Ezreal? Muramana is a really cool item concept and I wish it were viable on more than just Ezreal.
That's also a decent solution. Muramana is one hell of a neat item. I think it could be a mix of him being busted and the bugs with the item, though, where he can proc it numerous times when he shouldn't be able to. His W > Q combo alone procs it _thrice._
: listen bud, i dont know where you got that runic echos procs muramana 4 times but thats not true at all. to be sure ive tested it. it doesnt multi proc
Read it again. I'm not saying Runic Echoes is responsible; His W procs it once if his W detonates, his Q procs it once, for some reason his mixed Q and W procs a third time (because the detonation itself is a single-target ability), and Runic Echoes' initial burst procs it a fourth time on the initial target. It's a lot of burst, and then you count in his AA, his second Q, and it gets ridiculous. I'd rather have 4 or 5 Muramana procs from three abilities and an AA, not 6. It's also a bit stupid to have someone building tank items but dealing extreme damage nonetheless because of his obtuse interaction with certain on-hit items.
Kazekiba (NA)
: Or maybe Mundo should build some MR? Ezreal was a significantly better player with mid Gold MMR than the rest of the Bronze team he's with due to a loss streak + his current actual rank. Runic Echos + Gunblade + Trinity is a LOT of damage. Ezreal does plenty of Magic damage as well as Physical, so armor alone isnt going to mitigate it much. It just wasn't a good pick or a good build into that comp.
That doesn't really involve much of my post, I was just explaining that the game might've contributed to my thoughts but it sure isn't the source of them. Ez's abuse of on-hit items and bugs is part of what makes him such a problem, even if he's otherwise pretty balanced. In this case, there's a major issue with proccing Muramana quad in _one_ hit; When it becomes more widespread of an issue, people will be complaining about it en-masse. I don't want to wait until I have an Ez in every game abusing it.
Rioter Comments
youthere (NA)
: Premades would have someone DC at the beginning of the game, and reconnect after a few minutes, giving carry roles both early game gold advantage and early game LVL advantage as a result of having 3 solo lanes. So yeah, pretty broken.
Why can't it just kick in after 15 minutes like it usually does in DotA2? The large lump sum they have in inventory can be given then. Laning ends @ 15 anyway.
youthere (NA)
: Obviously things will not be figured out because they haven't done a damn thing about 4v5s in 10 years. They tried once, briefly in the closed beta; you'd get accelerated gold trickle on a handicap team, but people exploited it and blah blah blah. After that, Tencent bought Riot and they haven't tried to make any improvements to the actual game since.
Didn't know the technique IceFrog used with DotA2 AFKers if you decide to stay was broken. It seems to work perfectly fine to distribute any gold the AFK would get among the rest of their team because, well, sitting at fountain with 3k gold is totally useful and fair to the team.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cPKMegKL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-19T23:17:58.035+0000) > > I'm sorry to downvote you, but you need to remember newcomers are the life-blood of any game and that, chances are, anyone who dislikes a newbie asking questions and/or being _new_ would ban the newbie from their queue. Since this is a competitive game, a lot of people likely would. > > As much as trolls suck, I think you need to direct your criticism at Riot for letting them hang so loose. Riot refuses to punish people for trolling, and they refuse to implement measures to make trolls less impact. Newcomers already have a system in effect where in a couple of games the game itself separates actual new comers from smurfs and level ups. It's in full effect and this new system doesn't disturb the old one in any way. As for the system being mishandled by banning just bad players the affect the and the affect would be negligible. Not many will do it, not many will get affected by "misuse" since many would be of similar skill playing in. Another fix would be having a limited amount of names yo can add in a certain period of time. This way you have to make it count and people would thin twice before wasting it on someone who farmed poorly compared to someone who ran it down mid. However people would definitely add bad trolling teammates to the list the moment they can which would be way more frequent than the former misuse thus achieving what it's designed for As for riot letting trolls hang loose i don't blame them for not being able to catch them themselves. Making an ai that studies the pattern to a t and differs between a bad player and an inter is difficult. Them not implementing a system where the players can help however boggles my mind.
> [{quoted}](name=Ozzie Storm,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cPKMegKL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T00:31:40.526+0000) > > Newcomers already have a system in effect where in a couple of games the game itself separates actual new comers from smurfs and level ups. It's in full effect and this new system doesn't disturb the old one in any way. the problem is, though, that it wouldn't apply solely to newcomers. It'd apply to people new to divisions, leagues, even champions in norms[!]. You don't just suddenly stop being a newbie, after all; You learn everything. Even then, newbies would have permanent marks against them for not queueing with people if your system was in place, even if later the smurfs or alts were sorted out.
: Revisiting the idea of banning certain players form queuing up with you
I'm sorry to downvote you, but you need to remember newcomers are the life-blood of any game and that, chances are, anyone who dislikes a newbie asking questions and/or being _new_ would ban the newbie from their queue. Since this is a competitive game, a lot of people likely would. As much as trolls suck, I think you need to direct your criticism at Riot for letting them hang so loose. Riot refuses to punish people for trolling, and they refuse to implement measures to make trolls less impactful.
Zardo (NA)
: I'm sorry, but no. Your kdas are low, you die too often, and you have really poor CS. This is without even looking at things like objective priority and whatnot. You are the reason you are losing a lot of your games, not others, if you truly played better you would climb.
This is the top-rated comment, so I'm going to reply to it with something that addresses everyone; There have been a **lot** of small blue dudes from Plat+ in Silver recently, and there have been even more people trying to climb back to Plat+ in Silver. I know because I've been fighting them. I'm not saying the O.P is good, but people need to consider this: how did he maintain Plat+ for 3 whole years, and only when the game's at it's worst is he having any problems at all? **The boards are littered with complaints about evidently-flawed matchmaking and rank distribution** no matter how much people want to justify their ignorance with 'people are pushing the blame off for being bad' (despite how ironic it is that it's their own form of justification for not considering the other, opposite stance.) If people want to be like "Your ultra-high KDA means nothing" in response to other people here, and then proceed to bitch about his KDA, they're hypocritical _and_ contributing absolutely nil to improving the game as a whole. You can't have your cake and fuck it too; Pick between KDA having some value or none.
Rioter Comments
Arsinik (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7jrmXRP6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-17T00:18:41.781+0000) > > Check again :/ The individual scores matter more than the objective scores when deciding if someone belongs in Bronze/Silver or not, if you aren't the jungler (who was pretty great, to be honest.) Notice how a majority of the damage was dealt by me, and a majority of the wards placed by me, and a majority of the pushing done by me, and a majority of the CC on my hands. Olaf was pretty good too, but even then... how are you supposed to carry a Katarina who legitimately intentionally feeds kills to the enemy team? If she feeds it to Yasuo, the answer is 'You can't.' > > Also, a great player and 4 shitty ones vs. 5 average/good ones is not fair matchmaking because champions like Yasuo exist. If you want to talk about individual scores then maybe you should think about the fact that you played teemo. Who i shouldn't have to remind you counters literally most of that enemy team if you were as good as you say then yasuo should not have been that fed and udyr should have been literally non existent.
Something that would've mattered if not for the fact that, thanks to Kat feeding Yasuo, Yasuo was able to one-shot me regardless of how much armor or health I built. _No-one else was a problem. **Just Yasuo because the Mid willingly fed him kills.**_
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7jrmXRP6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-17T00:18:41.781+0000) > > Check again :/ The individual scores matter more than the objective scores when deciding if someone belongs in Bronze/Silver or not. Notice how a majority of the damage was dealt by me, and a majority of the wards placed by me, and a majority of the pushing done by me, and a majority of the CC on my hands. Olaf was pretty good too, but even then... > > Also, a great player and 4 shitty ones vs. 5 average/good ones is not fair matchmaking because champions like Yasuo exist. And you are one of the shitty players? You seem very salty for no reason. The game look very even, nobody in your team was doing poorly. You want to leave? Great! Nobody is stopping you and quite frankly nobody will care about someone who throws a tantrum for losing an even game. Maybe if your team had an actual support instead of teemo you would have been able to do something about the main threat in the enemy team
and you're entirely clueless to the context of a Teemo vs. a majority of AA-reliant, kite-weak opponents! My team did better than theirs, fact. Mine should have won. If Yasuo and his team were better than mine, then I'd be alright with that... but he carried four shitty players to victory because, and only because, Katarina had fed him numerous kills early-on -- kills he converted into a lead by killing her more and more, and eventually vaporizing the entire team in singular Q's. There is no 'strategy' to 'kill the weakest link', and that goes double if she intentionally feeds him 5 kills before 7 minutes. She did. _SHE SAID SO._ The reason? She was salty about not getting ganks, even when the jungler got: dragons, herald and more dragons. "Not my problem if we lose" was what she said to Olaf after he started to ask her why she was feeding the enemy hyper-carry.
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7jrmXRP6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-04-17T00:09:11.650+0000) > > "One person cannot win you the game, but they can lose it for you." - Faker > > I'm so done. I'm so fucking done. I'm tired of all of this consistent bullshit. Kai'Sa be like "Oh, lets push Top during a teamfight and use all of my gold from kills on minions!" Kat be like "Oh well he won't gank my lane so I'm going to feed, CY@" and I'm just tearing my hair out because ***WHAT THE HELL, RIOT?*** > > Here's the thing, Riot: I came to this game after I had played and finished Dark Souls because I thought it'd also be one of those games where I can improve, see myself doing cooler shit as I improve, and see myself actually rank up from a lowly Iron/Bronze to a Gold. **HELL** fucking nah; I'm greeted with matches I don't influence even if I have the most damage, the most KP%, the most wards plopped the fuck down, the highest vision score, deep wards EVERYWHERE and mushrooms in key spots to avoid ganks and collapses. You treat me like I'm as good when I started as I am now, which is nonsense. > > I don't need to post anything more. This is some fucking B.S and I'm legitimately done. I'm either giving my account away to the first person who asks, or I'm changing my email to a temporary address and my password to a string of random characters. I can't be assed to put effort into a game if this is the sort of bullshit, this sort of match that's so bad, so frustrating it's _**insulting to my own personal skill**_ that I've been working to train up but apparently in the grand scheme of things means **fucking nothing.** You fed like an animal. "But muh damage on a champion who is consistently in the top five highest damage champions on average in the game!" lol. Fact: that Yasuo on the enemy team played better than you, and he deserved to win more than you. Don't like it? Play better. Also, buddy: https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3022167738/236190930?tab=stats Ekko and Olaf did more damage than you. Ekko had the same KP, Olaf had higher. You were at best middle of the pack in your team's performance, and like I said the Yasuo on the enemy team did substantially better than anyone on either team. Deal with it. Oh, and you played a shitty meme support like Teemo. =(
and he was one player vs. the three who did well on our team. Oh, and again... you seem to be missing this part, but Katarina was the one who intentionally fed him. She even admitted to it in team chat. Our team in general did better than theirs, and they still won because one player on our team fed theirs. ~~Hopefully you notice that a majority of my deaths come after Yasuo was already fed and started to target me, but you probably won't. Your bias is too strong because you think mine is. Can't argue, because you're surely always right.~~
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7jrmXRP6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-04-17T00:09:11.650+0000) > > "One person cannot win you the game, but they can lose it for you." - Faker > > I'm so done. I'm so fucking done. I'm tired of all of this consistent bullshit. Kai'Sa be like "Oh, lets push Top during a teamfight and use all of my gold from kills on minions!" Kat be like "Oh well he won't gank my lane so I'm going to feed, CY@" and I'm just tearing my hair out because ***WHAT THE HELL, RIOT?*** > > Here's the thing, Riot: I came to this game after I had played and finished Dark Souls because I thought it'd also be one of those games where I can improve, see myself doing cooler shit as I improve, and see myself actually rank up from a lowly Iron/Bronze to a Gold. **_HELL** fucking nah; I'm greeted with matches I don't influence even if I have the most damage, the most KP%, the most wards plopped the fuck down, the highest vision score, deep wards EVERYWHERE and mushrooms in key spots to avoid ganks and collapses, despite working my fucking hardest to become better. > > I don't need to post anything more. This is some fucking B.S and I'm legitimately done. I'm either giving my account away to the first person who asks, or I'm changing my email to a temporary address and my password to a string of random characters. I can't be assed to put effort into a game if this is the sort of bullshit, this sort of match that's so bad, so frustrating it's _**insulting to my own personal skill**_ that I've been working to train up but apparently in the grand scheme of things means **fucking nothing.** > [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7jrmXRP6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-04-17T00:09:11.650+0000) > > "One person cannot win you the game, but they can lose it for you." - Faker > > I'm so done. I'm so fucking done. I'm tired of all of this consistent bullshit. Kai'Sa be like "Oh, lets push Top during a teamfight and use all of my gold from kills on minions!" Kat be like "Oh well he won't gank my lane so I'm going to feed, CY@" and I'm just tearing my hair out because ***WHAT THE HELL, RIOT?*** > > Here's the thing, Riot: I came to this game after I had played and finished Dark Souls because I thought it'd also be one of those games where I can improve, see myself doing cooler shit as I improve, and see myself actually rank up from a lowly Iron/Bronze to a Gold. **_HELL** fucking nah; I'm greeted with matches I don't influence even if I have the most damage, the most KP%, the most wards plopped the fuck down, the highest vision score, deep wards EVERYWHERE and mushrooms in key spots to avoid ganks and collapses, despite working my fucking hardest to become better. > > I don't need to post anything more. This is some fucking B.S and I'm legitimately done. I'm either giving my account away to the first person who asks, or I'm changing my email to a temporary address and my password to a string of random characters. I can't be assed to put effort into a game if this is the sort of bullshit, this sort of match that's so bad, so frustrating it's _**insulting to my own personal skill**_ that I've been working to train up but apparently in the grand scheme of things means **fucking nothing.** 40 minute game with fairly even objectives and scores... what's the problem here exactly? You guys were clearly matched up well skill wise, one of the rare cases, so your loss seems like you just dropped the ball in that last fight you needed to win.
Check again :/ The individual scores matter more than the objective scores when deciding if someone belongs in Bronze/Silver or not, if you aren't the jungler (who was pretty great, to be honest.) Notice how a majority of the damage was dealt by me, and a majority of the wards placed by me, and a majority of the pushing done by me, and a majority of the CC on my hands. Olaf was pretty good too, but even then... how are you supposed to carry a Katarina who legitimately intentionally feeds kills to the enemy team? If she feeds it to Yasuo, the answer is 'You can't.' Also, a great player and 4 shitty ones vs. 5 average/good ones is not fair matchmaking because champions like Yasuo exist.
Jamaree (NA)
: So long, best of luck on wherever you go from here.
Thank you. You, as a good person, need some luck as well. Good luck :)
  Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=kargish,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=iv6foPUg,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-14T11:59:23.949+0000) > > You are aware that combining 2x gold IV, 1x silve I and 2x unranked could in no reality give an average rank of gold IV right? i'm assuming this was off op.gg or some other site that has a similar function those sites aren't 100% accurate, at least not the way we think they are as stated above, League has the rank system in place, which everyone can see...but it also has the mmr system which is invisible and confusing as hell the MMR system views things differently you could be ranked Iron but have the mmr of a high silver/low gold player, on the other hand you could be ranked diamond and have the mmr of a bronze it makes almost zero sense
> [{quoted}](name=MordridtheBlack,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=iv6foPUg,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-14T13:04:14.725+0000) > > i'm assuming this was off op.gg or some other site that has a similar function > > those sites aren't 100% accurate, at least not the way we think they are > > as stated above, League has the rank system in place, which everyone can see...but it also has the mmr system which is invisible and confusing as hell > > the MMR system views things differently > > you could be ranked Iron but have the mmr of a high silver/low gold player, on the other hand you could be ranked diamond and have the mmr of a bronze > > it makes almost zero sense OP.GG could be wrong about a lot of things, but not the persons' rank.
Ourboros (EUW)
: Uh you phrase it like everyone in diamond has these kinds of gains and losses which is false. Rank is infact a currency. MMR as an ELO system only redistributes points, because if it wouldn't, Inflation would make any ranking meaningless. The league points system does inflate somewhat since there are games where you are at 0 Lp and aren't demoted, but the changes in MMR will still balance this out
> [{quoted}](name=Ourboros,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzW4LwKZ,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-04-14T14:50:40.893+0000) > > Uh you phrase it like everyone in diamond has these kinds of gains and losses which is false. > Rank is infact a currency. MMR as an ELO system only redistributes points, because if it wouldn't, Inflation would make any ranking meaningless. > The league points system does inflate somewhat since there are games where you are at 0 Lp and aren't demoted, but the changes in MMR will still balance this out Explain how an MMR above 0 exists then? It isn't a currency. Explain how MMR keeps increasing with the skill of players? In DotA2 for example, people thought the MMR cap was 3k at release. Now it's around 7-8k and all brackets of ~1k MMR have a new set of skills that're learnt or present. MMR is still subject to inflation. It is normal for D+ players. It's the baseline to lose more than you gain, which is why you see so many smurfs. There are people who 'just deal' with Diamond's broken system, but in the end they just prove how pointless Leagues/Ranks are over a flat & transparent MMR system.
Ourboros (EUW)
: You dont seem to understand the fundamental flaw with this. In a ranking system someone HAS to lose and somone HAS to win. The LP/MMR you won is the one that the enemy team lost. When you want your LP loss lessened because you did good, the enemy has to gain less to compensate. Or Imagine yourself winning, but because the enemy team lost gracefully and played well, you in turn gain practically no Lp for your win. Thats awful design.
> [{quoted}](name=Ourboros,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzW4LwKZ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-04-14T13:54:37.111+0000) > > You dont seem to understand the fundamental flaw with this. In a ranking system someone HAS to lose and somone HAS to win. The LP/MMR you won is the one that the enemy team lost. When you want your LP loss lessened because you did good, the enemy has to gain less to compensate. Or Imagine yourself winning, but because the enemy team lost gracefully and played well, you in turn gain practically no Lp for your win. Thats awful design. It already does that. In Diamond, you lose 22ish LP if you lose. You gain 8 if you win. It isn't a 'form of currency' because it isn't finite, and wasn't ever finite by design.
: A bad team can lose you a game, but bad teams wont keep you in an elo youre good enough to climb out of. If youre games are consistently being ruined by inter/feeders, it might be bcuz ur inting/feeding.
> [{quoted}](name=AnotherFeeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzW4LwKZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-14T05:52:36.302+0000) > > A bad team can lose you a game, but bad teams wont keep you in an elo youre good enough to climb out of. If youre games are consistently being ruined by inter/feeders, it might be bcuz ur inting/feeding. People evidently disagree for good reason. I can say I felt like losses were my fault in S5/6, but in S7 it started becoming shaky and now in S8 and S9 I'm just sighing because I can't control a Mid/Jg. who legitimately chase the enemy team through their jungle and then feed the enemy Draven a kill and then refuse to gank him to fix the fact they've made my lane nigh-impossible now.
Ourboros (EUW)
: I am not trying to convince anyone, nor did i try to make an argument. People who hold this belief don't do it because they have any arguments for it, so a debate about it is completly pointless. Also the burden of proof is not on me.
> [{quoted}](name=Ourboros,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZrL3qbJ0,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-14T12:38:12.839+0000) > > I am not trying to convince anyone, nor did i try to make an argument. People who hold this belief don't do it because they have any arguments for it, so a debate about it is completly pointless. Also the burden of proof is not on me. You're the one claiming it doesn't exist by the very nature of your post's title. The same burden goes for the people who claim it does without providing anything to back it up. The burden of proof is on the claimant, and none of you have any proof or evidence. You can't have your cake, eat it, and then fuck it too.
: yes. against the TOS
> [{quoted}](name=letsfeedtogether,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XLRIcfcT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-14T11:30:33.721+0000) > > yes. against the TOS Oh. I was thinking of selling it because I no longer enjoy the game as much as I'd like to. Kinda' sad, but I guess I just can't do it. Nbd.
Rioter Comments
HOT PINK (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sMnzETq8,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-04-12T09:44:17.335+0000) > > That's not exactly true, because that's not the reasoning. > > The issue is that it will intentionally try to give you better enemies while not giving you teammates who are any better if you're winning a lot, because it wants you to be matched against on-par opponents. And that is a bad idea because league isn't a 1v5 game.
> [{quoted}](name=HOT PINK,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sMnzETq8,comment-id=000000010002,timestamp=2019-04-13T08:17:52.476+0000) > > And that is a bad idea because league isn't a 1v5 game. If it was like an old game called Evolve, it might make sense because you're the only player, and therfor having other enemy players with equal MMR is fair. However... in a 5v5, matching a team with 200, 200, 200, 200 MMR against a team with an MMR of 350 all-around, even if you personally are at 400, is not going to end well unless you play current, broken hypercarry champions capable of 1v5. Guess what: that automatically fucks most support players. Not only that, but when someone who belongs in Silver gets their grimy hands on a champion as broken as, say, Urgot, Riven or Vayne... and then steamrolls with them, it artificially increases their MMR and then they end up feeding when they can't play that broken champion or they get nerfed. It's why you see so many b00st3d an1mal5 after every patch that nerfs someone in the higher echelons of power. It's not that Riot needs to fix the matchmaking. It's not that Riot needs to balance the game. Riot _**has**_ to do both for a healthy game.
: Even if they do change bans this way there is a still chance that the enemy team gets said champ meaning you will just have to dodge again.
> [{quoted}](name=SeaWeaboo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FHahpEiO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-13T05:11:32.949+0000) > > Even if they do change bans this way there is a still chance that the enemy team gets said champ meaning you will just have to dodge again. or not, because you know how to play them and therfor play around them.
Ir Sun (EUW)
: Maybe as you grew older your friend stopped league because of work, social life, other priorities? It's certainly the case for me, I play since season 3, and I am 30 years old now, still making time to play LOL, but my friends have kids, a wife, work, etc... so they stopped, not because they don't like the game anymore, but they don't want to invest time in league, which I completely understand.
> [{quoted}](name=Ir Sun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfuQNV6u,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-12T15:28:16.325+0000) > > Maybe as you grew older your friend stopped league because of work, social life, other priorities? > It's certainly the case for me, I play since season 3, and I am 30 years old now, still making time to play LOL, but my friends have kids, a wife, work, etc... so they stopped, not because they don't like the game anymore, but they don't want to invest time in league, which I completely understand. I've been playing years with around 3-10 games a day, minimum, and can still say League's pretty shit and all of 37 of my 54 my friends -- who still express a desire to play but just can't because of the state of the game and how frustrating it is -- play something else until LoL has it's shit fixed. The other quarter of my friends list has a tendency to rage, quit and otherwise not give a fuck more than they had in S6. It's anecdotal evidence, but there're people who can back it up. Dismissing it on the grounds that there _could_ be another explanation even if it's less likely is a bit unwise.
Ourboros (EUW)
: Ranked is rigged = Flat Earth
I'm glad posts like the O.P's aren't taken that seriously. He hasn't put much thought into an argument to convince people why they're wrong, he just tells them that they're wrong. It's pretty simple, and it's pretty sad to see too.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Well its common to adapt strats and tactics from other people... Also you pretend you can't counter this tactic. When its such an ez win with it, why dont you do it every game yourself? I mean, i would do it every game if its so promising. But i doubt it is that easy. I guess you guys just fucked up. Just admit that they outplayed you.
> [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rt0jdpzE,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T14:30:07.537+0000) > > Well its common to adapt strats and tactics from other people... > > Also you pretend you can't counter this tactic. > When its such an ez win with it, why dont you do it every game yourself? > I mean, i would do it every game if its so promising. > But i doubt it is that easy. > I guess you guys just fucked up. > > Just admit that they outplayed you. Flashing over a wall and stunning someone isn't an outplay when there's no way to see it coming. That's kinda' the idea behind the complaint. I don't do it because it feels cheesy and lacks any actual thought behind it -- oh, and because a lot of the time the rest of my team is uncooperative when I say "Hey yeah, we have great Lv1 CC so lets kill them!" Sorry, but some tactics are just cheese for the win. Remember pick-or-ban Kassawin? Same thing. The only barrier is communication. That's it.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Sounds creative. Don't you think such an interesting move should be rewarded?
> [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rt0jdpzE,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T12:07:05.225+0000) > > Sounds creative. > Don't you think such an interesting move should be rewarded? Not even close, because it's something people saw on a stream and now mimic. It's nothing that required them to think, and it's nothing they came up with on their own either. They also shouldn't be rewarded with an automatic free win.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Why not tell us this mighty lvl 1 cheese? Pls don't say it was the 2 man waiting in botlane tri-bush while you leashing red.
> [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rt0jdpzE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T11:55:41.955+0000) > > Why not tell us this mighty lvl 1 cheese? > Pls don't say it was the 2 man waiting in botlane tri-bush while you leashing red. 5 man splitting and flash+scissoring the jungler and their helpers.
: > 5) She has the lowest auto attack range of a ranged champion in the game. {{champion:25}} range: 450 {{champion:6}} range: 350 Therefore, your 5th statement is wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUqlr2l1,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-10T11:37:06.947+0000) > > {{champion:25}} range: 450 > {{champion:6}} range: 350 > > Therefore, your 5th statement is wrong. We're calling him ranged, now, huh?
: Someone got level 2 gank by a jungler with red buff...
> [{quoted}](name=taleofsonata,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rt0jdpzE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-10T10:59:12.028+0000) > > Someone got level 2 gank by a jungler with red buff... and their support and their top and their ADC and their mid, and they all flashed to feed the ADC the kill. Guess what: the ADC was impossible to lane against because she flat-out out-damaged me _and_ my own ADC at the same time because of that lead. Do you know that she had a support too? The point is that the gold lead given by cheesy Lv1 B.S was so minuscule because it was cheesy bullshit and not a legitimate strategy, because _if it was it'd outrank every other strategy and people would do anything for that one kill to feed their ADC._ Guess what people do now on a consistent basis? Games are now almost guaranteed to be decided in favor of whoever feeds the ADC or enemy carry first blood through a cheese kill, because on top of the gold for the ADC or carry they also have gold for the entire rest of the team now. Also, it wasn't a Lv2 gank. It was a Lv1 cheese strategy where people abuse the fact vision is now so scarce because at start you can have at **max** two wards out at the same time. What, do I stay under tower and let my ADC and Jungler flame me for not leashing or supporting? Seems kinda' boring and devoid of actual strategy and thought, you know?
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Kitsuné Orrion

Level 156 (NA)
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