: AP Carries, AP assassins and AP fighters all use the same items....
Yes, AP champions all scale on the same basic stats. What that means is, if you want diverse AP itemization, it cannot just be a bunch of stat sticks. But for the past several seasons, every AP item is basically just a stat stick. Sometimes they'll throw on a passive or active, but it's usually one that just gives you more damage. Luden's proc? Damage. Liandry's passive? Damage. Rabadon's? Lots of AP, so lots of damage. Move away from "more damage" on items and give unique passives or actives that strongly benefit certain subclasses while being useless to others. It isn't that hard to come up with a few basic ideas. For example: "Whenever you hit an enemy champion from further than 800 units away, X happens (could be mana restore, temporary movespeed, or whatever artillery mages need)." This only helps artillery mages, because they're the only ones who can really proc it. Or "While in combat with a nearby enemy champion, gain a stacking buff (perhaps armor/MR) each second, up to a cap of 5 stacks." This only helps battle mages and AP divers/bruisers. Burst mages don't want to be near enemies for long, and artillery mages pop before the buff even ramps up. Just saying, Riot could put in a bit more effort instead of just giving up because "AP champions all want the same stats."
: Ghost Crawler: "We certainly don’t balance the game only for pros"
We don't balance the game only for pros! We balance it only for pros and LCS viewers!
: **At least** Galio's personality is unique: happy to be alive, happy to be useful, but aware that years of living sleep awaits (even if those more somber aspects of his persona aren't adequately fleshed out in my opinion). Aatrox is literally copypasted from some random anime enemy...
I agree with you regarding Galio. I didn't like it at first, but it's definitely cohesive and somewhat unique. He's happy just to exist, but his moments of introspection really make his character work ("Tragedy is worse when you can do nothing about it." "It's not easy when everyone looks up to you.")
: Fuck off, 30 min games were fine. 50+ minute games were not. I LOVE that support isnt just a ward bot anymore. The games aren't too short, they're *decided* too fast. I've been in games where I knew I had lost/won at 10 minutes. There is a reason 15 min ff is in the game. And pyke, yeah, puke is great. Not being able to build health... NOT good. Bad in fact, maybe the worst. His design should have been decent bases, bad/ok scaling with a good base on his ult so he could actually use his fucking control more than once. I dont want a memey assassin support. You dont need to design a champ to be forced to buy items that dont work because they aren't designed to use them.
> The games aren't too short, they're decided too fast. Yep basically this. I know within 15 minutes if our team is going to win or lose. And there's maybe a 10% chance the winning team throws since I play normals at a silver-ish level. Unfortunately, most competent teams can hold off the nexus for another 15 minutes, even though the hope of winning is almost zero. > I LOVE that support isnt just a ward bot anymore. You and me both. I started in Season One, and playing support was miserable. It's been massively improved since then. Perhaps too much, in the past season or so, but it's definitely way better than it was before.
: Yes, the board is made up of different people, but everyone who makes one of those threads speaks as if the people that they speak for everyone and that everyone that had a different opinion didn't exist. And the worst of it is BOTH groups of people, those with opinion A and those with opinion B say Riot is a bunch of incompetent idiots for not listening to them despite neither group being better than the other. You acknowledge that this happens yet you say that Riot always say "The customer is always right" and just follow whoever is yelling at the moment?
I didn't say much of anything about what Riot does or doesn't do, or what the Boards do or don't do. Both groups are right some of the time. That's not a satisfying bumper sticker, but it's the truth.
mack9112 (NA)
: Immobile mages
They're still decently strong as a class (presumably because they are extremely useful in teamfights), it just feels like garbage playing as one. Especially during the laning phase. You're reliant on dodgeable skillshots and cooldowns for all your damage, lane opponents have multiple options to mitigate your burst (Nullifying Orb, Hexdrinker, QSS/Merc) while mages have one AP/armor item in return, and even tanks have enough damage to kill you if they get on you.
Lost R (NA)
: Why are you complaining? This is exactly what you wanted.
It's almost like boards is made up of thousands of different people who have different opinions! Sure, the community might be inconsistent at times, but they also sometimes have the right idea: * Dynamic Queue and removed Solo Queue. This was an incredibly unpopular change from the get-go, and it was forced through anyway. People continued to hate it and Riot eventually reverted it. * Galio when they decided to give him super-high AP-scaling % damage on his Q. EVERYONE knew this would be a bad idea, well before it went live, and Riot had to emergency hotfix it in 7.21. * Release Zoe. Again, it was obvious that she was going to be a problem, and a lot of people expressed concern about her overloaded kit. She's continued to be a balance problem. The solution isn't "ignore the community" nor is it "mindlessly do whatever Boards says." As with most things, it's somewhere in the middle.
: Just saw the new Aatrox trailer...
He sounds like a SUPER generic 90s kids' TV villain.
P00PD1CK (EUW)
: Why are there so few AP bruisers? So champs who build some damage items then go tank.
Because Riot is incredibly lazy when it comes to developing AP items. I've posted on this before, but they're perfectly willing and able to come up with items for ADCs, assassins, and even tanks that attempt to fill different playstyles and fantasies. But when it comes to AP items, they just put absolutely no effort. Every item they release seems to be "here, have more damage". And so itemization ends up being super flat and bland, and it doesn't work well for a lot of AP champions, like AP bruisers.
: Why does Yasuo instantly get compensation buffs and passive rework
Karma hasn't had a passive in 3 years. Not entirely on-point but still related. Her shield's being nerfed (which is totally understandable, since enchanter shielding uptime is an issue) but she still has no actual passive or gameplay/story.
Yenn (NA)
: If your champion can't 100 to 0 someone in 3-4 seconds, it's not viable in top, mid, or jungle
I hear what you're saying. Our tanks and mages have a bit too much CC. So we're going to nerf their strategic play and give them more damage.
MeowGath (NA)
: Turrets in 8.11
I genuinely wish they would explain their reasoning behind making turrets even weaker than before. Players have been begging for turrets to actually pack a punch and be an objective that you protect which also protects you. They haven't protected players in the past year or two.
: Been playing since s3, over 7500 ARAM games. The new changes are for the most part are all bad imo. The ghostwalkers are disgustingly broken, the new lethality item is super broken and has some **RIDICULOUS** interactions (You can use the active and snowball someone as skarner and then drag them back to your fountain). The new AP item is meh. I personally quite like the relic changes, but I agree that they should be team specific. The big thing though, the removal of warmogs, was just dumb. Melee champions get poked to shit in ARAM and unless you have hard engage, you lose. Warmogs made it so melee comps didn't have to go into every fight with < 50% hp. At the very least, they should add warmogs back but add a cap to the amount of hp it regens (maybe up to 60% of your max hp). Regardless of what happens, it needs to be added back. The nerf of dark harvest has me a bit on the fence, though I do realize it was overpowered. It was just so fun one shotting with Jarvan and other assassins without a cooldown like electrocute lol. As far as the map changes go, I can say for a fact that everything you pointed out is correct. I have experienced every example on your list multiple times and they definitely should be reverted.
> the new lethality item is super broken and has some RIDICULOUS interactions (You can use the active and snowball someone as skarner and then drag them back to your fountain). I discovered to my disappointment that if Tahm Kench swallows you, you don't get blinked back. It's a really unintuitive item in a lot of ways, unless it works that way for all hard CC. Also couldn't agree more with you and OP about Ghostwalkers. It's really frustrating to get an enemy down to low health and have them just pop boots and walk through a wall, becoming untargetable. For only half the roster to have that option isn't balanced.
: Because Zyra has one of the most disgustingly-potent AOE CC's in the game. You can't really aptly-compare the two since Zyra is more about zoning enemy champs, while Brand simply tries to goon people with his rotation & sucks at peeling. They are very different from each other.
Yeah, at the end of the day this really is the biggest difference. Zyra's linear snare that passes through minions is way stronger than Brand's super conditional stun that can be body-blocked. It makes ganking her and her ADC very difficult because she just aims it in your general direction and you're snared, your JG is snared too, and maybe your support too.
Risen29 (NA)
: Ultimate Hat change was a terrible idea
The funny part is it's total garbage now, but it's way stronger in ARAM than Ultimate Hat was before. You often get assists or kills on all 5 enemy champions before level 6.
: How is talon more fair, though? Zed's burst is delayed and skillshot reliant. Talon jumps over 4 walls and instagibs. Lol.
I'm talking about the laning experience. Yes, Talon's wall jump makes his ganks way more potent than Zed's, but when you're laning against him, he can't really use it to engage on you. His early-game engage pattern is either "get jungler help" or "walk up to you and you still didn't dodge his W."
: > [{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5OWjdBjc,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-06-01T06:24:47.136+0000) > > I would assume because Talon feels more fair to play against. Even if he&#x27;s stronger (that depends on win-rates and pick-rates), Talon is pretty limited in his range of impact while Zed can either flee or make plays from a further distance away. > > When Talon outplays me mid, I feel like he earned it. When Zed presses R+E+Q+ignite and I either don&#x27;t land my one CC spell or don&#x27;t press my Zhonya&#x27;s, I don&#x27;t feel like I got outplayed. I feel like I got out-reflexed and really had no choice in the matter since he has 2 gap closers. You actually bring up great and well thought out points, I feel like both are relatively fair to play against in the grand scheme of things, Zed has a linear skillshot that isn't too hard to dodge, though he does have more range, that much is true, whilst Talons W snapback delay is a big part of his counterplay, that and ccing him during his Q. I feel like if I get full comboed by a Zed I got outplayed though, especially if I failed to land my cc or failed to use Zhonyas. I feel as if it were my fault for not recognising what he will do in the situation the lane is in.
> I feel like if I get full comboed by a Zed I got outplayed though, especially if I failed to land my cc or failed to use Zhonyas. I certainly can't argue with how you feel, if Zed's laning pattern doesn't bother you. For me, the issue is that in lane, Zed has a ton of options. He can farm passively (his passive and Q help him last-hit), or he can gap-close (potentially twice once he hits 6). He dictates the lane because he has 8 different ways to start a fight while the immobile mage has only one way to survive the fight--land your hard CC when he goes in. Zhonyas isn't generally affordable until the end of laning phase.
: Talon all ins and kills you level 2 after poking you down at level 1. To top it off, he can shove you in way safer and faster than a zed ever could... but I guess people just band wagon so hard, they use hyperbole rather than facts.
I specifically said Talon may well be factually stronger, but he feels more fair to lane against than Zed. Before level 6, Talon's engage is either: wait for jungler to gank and CC, or run up to you. He doesn't have a huge gap closer or a long-range poke skill (W travels slow enough and is narrow enough that you can usually avoid the second hit).
: Idk, i feel like people focusing on uptime dont really play shield supports much. Uptime isn't itself really important, whats important is low cooldowns so you can more often use the shield since in most cases except maybe jannas, the shield will be removed in 1-2 damage instances at the most which usually occur immediately after use occurs. Like yeah lowering durations will make it more difficult to use shields well but if you want to look at shielding effectiveness then you have to look at sps which is a product of strength and cooldown not duration and cooldown. {{champion:37}} shields are not a problem, theyre weak and short plus the range is short as well. {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:43}} all have insta cast pretty strong (really strong for janna) shields with ok to good range, their cd's should stay the same but durations should be lowered to 4,3.5,3 seconds respectively, definitely not less than 3 in any case though. {{champion:497}} 's shield durations are alright but since he can so quickly recast, the strength of his second shield should be halved on at least the initial target of that skill.
I'd agree with this, to an extent. Sure, the theoretical uptime isn't the most important thing, but it is a factor. The problem with shields currently is that 3-5 seconds is too forgiving. You don't have to anticipate anything, you can just throw it on your carry when they get near an enemy (or vice versa). The amount of skill expression on a long-duration, point-and-click shield is minimal.
CD8 (NA)
: PSA to Riots Balance team
It's worse than that, since they reduced turret health by 1/3 in most cases without reducing damage.
: So has the point just completely went over your head? It doesnt matter if spell binder was better or not all mages would still build the same overpowered item at the time. It seems that mages want a duskblade or something because of how strong the item is, when assassins ad especially only have three items for them. It seems that everytime a new ad item is introduced mages freak out about how there items are trash(which isnt fking true), or how ad has better items for them. But at the end of the day it doesnt matter because the builds for mages are just going to be swapped out when the new items replace the old ones. Its going to be the same as when {{item:3003}} was overpowered and no one built the other two, now its ludens. The same thing will happen if they add new ones. And every single mage will build the same because they all ned the same stats.
Haven't we already done this before? I'm pretty sure you've argued against me on this exact point on posts before. An item with an active that gives you more of the stats the item already gives is not an interesting design. It's lazy and it also WILL NOT WORK. Because either the active will be strong enough and/or up often enough that it beats the competition, or it won't be. Spellbinder is not, because its uptime is 4 seconds for every ONE HUNDRED spellcasts. And the movespeed it gives isn't even constant for that 4 seconds. It decays, so what's the point? Duskblade isn't a great design either because it's way too forgiving. A 5 second timer after you're out of sight for 1 second means it's basically always up. They need to shorten its uptime to 2 or 3 seconds so it doesn't work on everyone who likes lethality. If Riot released an item that said "when you hit an enemy from 900+ range away, X happens" you CANNOT seriously tell me every mage would build that item. That's just stupid. Only artillery mages would use it. My point, in its entirety, is that Riot absolutely could come up with creative item designs for mages. They choose not to, either because they can't or won't come up with unique ideas tailored to specific mage subclasses.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5OWjdBjc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-31T13:07:47.619+0000) > > Zed is Riot&#x27;s model for assassin balance. If they feel assassins need buffed, they look to Zed. If they need nerfed, they look to Zed. > > ADC&#x27;s abusing Zed&#x27;s toys? Make those toys melee only! > > Does Zed have too much sustain? Nerf the damage on BC! > > Etc. Honestly, Talon is the strongest AD assassin right now, I dunno where this Zed bitching is coming from or why it's happening.
I would assume because Talon feels more fair to play against. Even if he's stronger (that depends on win-rates and pick-rates), Talon is pretty limited in his range of impact while Zed can either flee or make plays from a further distance away. When Talon outplays me mid, I feel like he earned it. When Zed presses R+E+Q+ignite and I either don't land my one CC spell or don't press my Zhonya's, I don't feel like I got outplayed. I feel like I got out-reflexed and really had no choice in the matter since he has 2 gap closers.
: The fact that you admit that the majority of mages build the same item proves that mages want the same thing. They are not as unique as ad is when it comes to stats. {{item:3030}} was barely built before anyway, {{item:3003}} was built by everyone because it offered so much. Unless they rework mages to be more unique there will be no solution, why would mage build a multitude of items when one item has everything they want. Mana changes made sense too, because now mages have to think when they cast there spells. Its like this why would anyone build {{item:3907}} , when {{item:3089}} exists. Why would anyone build {{item:3030}}, when {{item:3003}} is better anyway with the shield and tons of mana along with {{item:3285}} which has a nice passive and more ap. It isnt like those two are bad items, spell binder is cheap, the movespeed is nice and the active takes some time but its a good active. Also hex isnt even that bad its only 10 less ap and the active is great for kitting. But its like why would I when those other items are so much better. Mages dont need more items because like every other class your all going to end up building the same overpowered item for the time. So what does it matter?
> Its like this why would anyone build {{item:3907}} , when {{item:3089}} exists. Because they give you the same exact stat. Do you want 120 AP (that sometimes adds 80 AP for 4 seconds) or do you want 120 + 40% total AP all the time? The answer is virtually always going to be Rabadon's. Spellbinder is not an interestingly designed item. It's lazy. The active takes an eternity to stack and it just gives you more of the stats the item already gives. It's always going to be either better or worse than Rab's, because mages don't want or need a 4 second movespeed boost. If they did, you'd see more of them take Phase Rush or Nimbus Cloak.
Blupor (NA)
: Please consider separating heal power and shield power.
Shields need their uptime WAY reduced. Lulu's shield can be up 100% of the time. Janna's and Karma's can be up 5/6 of the time. Rakan's can be up 5/12 of the time but it can be used twice within 5 seconds and it stacks. And Lux's shield can be up 1/2 of the time, but it stacks and refreshes if she catches the ally on the way back. They should all be reduced to short durations, like 2.5 seconds at the most, to ensure that they are used only in anticipation of damage rather than just throwing them on whenever.
: Not in the same manner that Luden's does. It's designed to be better on poke champs, as they essentially get an additional spell at the same time as they are poking. And they have tried to make more interesting actives. Just hardly anyone builds them since AP as a stat is primarily about insta-bursting the target, so the entire class just builds what gives them the most AP, swapping out an item here or there for defensive stats or if they need something particular (like assassins want Protobelt for the dash, DPS mages need tear for the mana)
That's the problem though. Luden's just offers you "more damage." That's it. Riot could come up with things other than just more damage, and they've either chosen not to or have no idea how to. And I'm not talking about just actives. There are other options. Balance obviously isn't here, but what about something like "when you land a spell on an enemy champion from 900+ range, reduce your basic cooldowns by 1 second" for artillery mages? No other champion could even use them, so there's no risk of Akali or Kat abusing it. Or what about "health and mana costs are refunded when you are nearby an enemy champion" to reward battlemages (nearby being, say, 500 range)? I'm not saying those have to be the specifics, but just 5 minutes of thought and I was able to think up a few ideas that could maybe benefit some subclasses of mages while being worthless to others, by design. And most importantly, these ideas aren't just "here, have some more damage."
Velasan (NA)
: I'm not disagreeing, but I do want to point out that I frequently build Morellos specifically for the grevious wounds. There are Soraka's everywhere right now. It's like a banana invasion.
That may be so, but would you not build Morello's regardless? It's 100g cheaper than the "other" HP/AP item, Liandry's, which is already much more of a niche item. And the top builds on most mages suggest Morello's is the go-to third item, and I can't imagine there are Mundo/Vlad/Soraka in every game.
jovack (NA)
: I know it's possible to deal with it, but ARAM shouldn't be so flashy. One lane, 5v5 vanilla gameplay is really all ARAM needs to be. Them adding a larger champ pool and allowing for easier trades was really all that was needed. Even the snowballs that allow you to teleport in aren't my fav thing.
It's true, the new items make it flashier and more reflex-testy, which I don't like. But the boots are on a whole other level, since you can use them while in-combat. That is a problem, because it means if you're near a wall and are low on HP, you get a free uninteractive save. Snowballs I think are helpful since otherwise the melee half of the roster is garbage.
jovack (NA)
: New ARAM changes
The boots are a problem IMO, the other two are weird but no weirder than snowball as a summoner skill. The problem with boots is it allows completely uninteractive flanking, and it's also hard to see if someone's actually traveling through walls in the first place. They can also emerge from the wall while dropping a skill on you, giving you no reaction time. Just treat it like Kayn, please. You can still hit him through walls, and you can clearly see the wall he's nearest to because there's an indicator.
: That's because the majority of mages just want an item that increases poke. There aren't very many champs that need the amount of mana Tear gives, and not many need the catch potential of GLP.
Any AP item increases poke. The issue is that Riot has put minimal effort into making mage items interesting. Riot could come up with more interesting item passives/actives that aren't just "here, have more AP/damage."
: Well mages will typically be attracted to a group of stats that are common attractive stats for other mages. Luden's is just that item for now. Hextech isn't THAT bad of an item. I think people just are lazy and would prefer a non activateable item unless that active is just OP as all get out. The one thing it DID accomplish though is that the first staple item on all mages doesn't have grievous wounds stapled onto it. That is considerable.
> The one thing it DID accomplish though is that the first staple item on all mages doesn't have grievous wounds stapled onto it. That is considerable. Mage mains like myself have been posting this for AGES. Even before the mana changes, Morello was the rush item, but it wasn't because of the VERY conditional Grievous Wounds. It was because it had mana regen, 20% CDR, and a big chunk of AP (80 before the changes IIRC). That didn't change after the mana changes either. Now Morello's gave you 20% CDR, 100 AP and mana, which was fine since they basically removed mana regen. Even now, Morello's isn't the main item because of GW, it's because it has Mpen. Clearly Riot doesn't understand the problem with mage itemization. Yes, mages want the same 3 stats. So do assassins. So do ADCs. Every class scales off a few stats. They seem to have no trouble thinking up items with passives and actives that appeal to different styles of ADC, or different assassins. But when it comes to mages they just don't have any creativity.
: An Idea to Solve the Problem of not being Able to Trade Champions
Enable trading champions, like ARAM. Easy solution!
: Yah not a fan of point and click cc because it hurts immobile champs even more, however grounded effects are amazingly perfect they punish ultra mobile champs while leaving less mobile champs relatively unscathed.
Grounding isn't perfect. It absolutely ruins certain immobile champs because their skills have a minor dash attached: Eve's E and ult, Darius ult, Leona's E, Illaoi's W. Instead of disabling the dash, it just disables the whole skill.
: grounded-effect for everyone! {{champion:84}} grounded! {{champion:103}} grounded! {{champion:164}} lady scissor legs you are grounded {{champion:238}} grounded till next season and no list would be complete without our queen of bullshit mobility {{champion:7}} grounded forever! But in all seriousness what really makes me sick is how every player that mains these champs is a super cocky arrogant prick, who thinks jumping across the entire map effortlessly, being able to catch fucking everything while also being able to run away from fucking everything, is the epitome of skill expression. {{champion:7}} being the prime example of a champ that doesn´t have to commit to anything. like... {{champion:45}} {{champion:134}} ult ---> "Wow so unskilled" any assassin engages you from one screen away ---> "outplayed" and while most mage players make fun of their delete-buttons themselves for their uninteractiveness, assassins are all like "all me! all skill! from now on I shall be called king of games! Everyone, bow before my superior game knowledge and skill for I have caught this immobile champ with delayed cc. And it only took me 5 dashes, invisibility, and my flash" Soo yeah for my taste everyone could have a poppy W.
Grounded ends up unfortunately screwing over champions who aren't exactly mobility problems. {{champion:28}} can't use E or her ult, demolishing her damage. {{champion:60}} can't use her spider Q (not sure if her E is prevented or not). {{champion:122}} can't use his ult. {{champion:89}} can't use her E, messing up her initiate combo. More broadly, immobile champions can't use {{summoner:4}} This is not the solution to the problem because it won't actually limit the mobility creep culprits unless you can keep it constantly up, but a lot of immobile champs have a minor dash tied to their damaging spells. Grounding destroys them.
: There is no diversity among vanguards. That is a lie. {{item:3194}} Is the best MR item. People don't build {{item:3001}} and they don't build {{item:3065}} (Abyssal Mask sees more play on *gasp* mages, look at that diversity and SV is a juggernaut item). {{item:3143}} is the armor item. People don't build {{item:3110}} and they don't build {{item:3742}} . You shouldn't talk about classes you don't understand.
You're coming in hot here, and I'm honestly not sure why you're being so hostile. Also, from the information I'm seeing, you're wrong---although if you have another source of statistics that prove your point, I'd be glad to take a look. https://champion.gg/champion/Ornn/Top? http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top Ornn commonly builds Abyssal and Merc's but not Spirit Visage or Adaptive Helm. https://champion.gg/champion/Maokai/Top? http://na.op.gg/champion/maokai/statistics/top Maokai commonly builds Spirit Visage but not Abyssal or Adaptive. As for armor, he commonly builds Sunfire Cape over Randuin's. https://champion.gg/champion/Leona/Support? http://na.op.gg/champion/leona/statistics/support Leona rushes none of the items you mentioned. In fact, none of the common builds feature Adaptive Helm, even though you say it's flatly the "best" MR item. I'm seeing a pretty healthy diversity of build on these three champions, because even though they're all vanguards, they play differently.
: Patch 9.1: Scuttle Crab replaced with Golden Snitch. The first player to touch it wins the game.
Unless the other team gets 16 kills before you touch it! Then they still win.
: "scuttle timer raised"
> So we give you some of the loudest feed back of anger we have ever given you about a patch/idea Dynamic Queue would like a word with you.
: Anivia Receiving Buffs, Why? @Riot???
Is it really a buff? I'm seeing a combination of CD buffs and damage nerfs on the PBE. Her Q CD is reduced by 2/1.5/1/0.5/0 seconds while the ratio is being nerfed by 5% AP. Seems like a wash to me, especially since Q still costs a metric ton of mana. EDIT: Nevermind, I'm stupid and read the numbers wrong. It's a CD and ratio buff. Disregard!
: Jungle Role Poll
I used to love jungling Evelynn, Sejuani, and Nocturne, but now I just go mid. Can I still vote in the poll? -_-
: Champion identity is being destroyed by upfront damage, decreased time to kill
Damage is too high on almost everyone. It feels like the game has moved away from planning and strategizing with warding and smart play. Now it's just a reflex test. Oh you didn't mash your Zhonya's before Zed killed you? Too bad! Oh, you needed to mash your heal button just 1/4 of a second faster on your ADC. Now you're both dead!
: No I get it, there's oodles of choices for Juggernauts and Tanks and Fighters and to the same degree Marksmen, but all mage items sort of fill the same niche, which just happens to be the broad majority of where it comes in handy (mana and damage, with some extra cases of utility from the Hextech items). I was just hypothesizing that maybe Rabadon's was a similar case of old DFG where it curved design and balance choices. Maybe have some sort of item that grants stacking power for hitting skillshots on champions, and losing those stacks if you miss (artillery mages), or even an item that didn't give attack speed, but let you deal bonus damage to minions or an aura that increased minions' damage to enemy minions (whatever they're called, the split-push mages)
That's true, I think original Rabadon's was a bit design-warping. "Here, have some more damage and nothing else" is hard to balance, because it doesn't really change how you play. Either it's way too strong when it adds too much damage, or it's too weak and nobody buys it. Old DFG had the same problem. It was basically "Active: have 20% more damage for your next combo". > Maybe have some sort of item that grants stacking power for hitting skillshots on champions, and losing those stacks if you miss (artillery mages), or even an item that didn't give attack speed, but let you deal bonus damage to minions or an aura that increased minions' damage to enemy minions (whatever they're called, the split-push mages) Right, I'd like to see more items like this. Riot could easily make AP items that benefit specific types of mages or specific playstyles, but they've decided not to. I know there are certain AP champions who would love a split-push option (like me whenever I play Fizz).
: I can't tell if this is for LCS, or for casuals
I feel like they're trying to add risk and force interaction, to make LCS more interesting. But this doesn't work because LCS players are naturally risk-averse (since they get their paychecks off winning the game). Pro players respond to damage creep by playing even MORE passively. But casuals can't count on teammates that play safe. So what happens is the game becomes super boring to watch while lower elo games are destroyed by damage creep and reflex-testing.
: And i never said it wasnt core, and its funny because you are still proving my point more for two regards. One being that assassin dont even have enough items which is why the build clever and why its core, the armor shred and movespeed are to good to pass on if the health wasnt there they would still build it, in fact the health is just an added bonus regardless of if it was there it would still be built. The second is all assassin build all the items because they are the only items they have, and not only that BUT THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME PLAYSTYLE, all of them like out of combat movespeed, all have and unseen aspect to them, all of them need survivability. Yet almost all of them, in fact all of them have the exact same core, {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3071}}, because they are the only items they can get and appeal to them because they all have the exact same playstyle. You literally will never see an assassin not build duskblade, why because it is the best item. So regardless of if you add more items it does nothing but add another op item to the roaster. Probably because mages all need more dmg? Also is the item your suggesting not jsut more dmg? Another thing are you not rewarded by hitting you spells and doing dmg in the first place. You dont see a problem with artillery mages getting even more of an advantage with the amount of distance they have? Comet doesnt do that for them? Also again why? What unique and rewarding passive and active would not break mages? They already provide utility with there spells, they can get more dmg when they want, mana literally isnt even an issue anymore even with the nerfs. It actually doesnt make any sense to just add an item because mages feel their itemization is bland. And if you cant give a concrete factual non-bias reason for adding something that might potentially break the game again like duskblade, I honestly do see why riot would add another thing that would potentially ruin balance even more then it is.
> Probably because mages all need more dmg? Also is the item your suggesting not jsut more dmg? Another thing are you not rewarded by hitting you spells and doing dmg in the first place. You dont see a problem with artillery mages getting even more of an advantage with the amount of distance they have? Comet doesnt do that for them? Not necessarily. Artillery mages could be rewarded with mana regen for landing a long-range spell, to reward them for aiming well. Or battlemages could be rewarded with temporary MR/armor buffs for being in the middle of the action, as they're designed to be. Damage doesn't have to be the only option. And the new runes are part of a large problem of damage creep in this game, which I'd like to see addressed. Comet is not the worst example of this by far. But honestly, I'd like to see ALL the damage runes tuned down regardless of class. > Also again why? What unique and rewarding passive and active would not break mages? They already provide utility with there spells, they can get more dmg when they want, mana literally isnt even an issue anymore even with the nerfs. It actually doesnt make any sense to just add an item because mages feel their itemization is bland. I think we disagree on game design then. I believe itemization should not be bland for any class, and I believe that the world's finest (or at least best-paid) design team should be able to come up with items designed for specific mage subclasses. I'm frankly not sure why you think that's so impossible. Battlemages could benefit from conditional resistances while they're in combat with enemy champions, or artillery mages could benefit from tenacity or damage reduction when the gap's closed on them if they land a hit on an enemy. The details don't matter, my point is I can clearly give you examples where certain mage subclasses would benefit that aren't just "more damage." Just because Riot hasn't done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done.
: Mentioning that, does that mean that Rabadons should be removed? I could be wrong, but if things are being balanced around the existence of Rabadon's passive, then that's bad for those possibilities of when it _isn't_ built. Then again I could be preaching some total BS that I'm coincidentally buzzwording from some previous Riot developer post... And if I am, I apologize.
Rabadon's is intended to fill the same effect as Infinity Edge. It's meant to be a multiplicative source of damage, but for AP champions. The problem is that more flat AP doesn't track the same way as critical strikes do on AD carries, who have a point-and-click source of damage that scales with Infinity Edge and hits reliably 1.5-2 times per second. Also, if mages had a number of other options with meaningful choices based on their mage class or playstyle, not everyone would just build Rabadon's. "More flat AP" wouldn't always be the right choice! Even now, Void Staff fills the same role of "just give me more damage" if your enemy team is stacking MR. I just want to see mage itemization where there's a meaningful choice rather than... do I want damage or more damage. Perhaps artillery mages could be rewarded with mana regen or temporary MPen for landing a long-range spell, or battlemages could be given MR and armor for each time they hit a nearby enemy champion (up to a cap). I don't know, I'm not a game designer, but AP items could do something other than "more damage."
: The champions that would build the Spear probably want nothing to do with Adaptive, plus the helm would work after the Spear, so you're losing value, not even considering that the Spear futher anti-synergizes with MR. And in your example, virtually any source of MR, such as a Hexdrinker, would help you survive more, especially since you've only calculated for the vase damage on a spell with fairly hefty scaling.
That's true, the more AP scaling you have the less effect its flat reduction has. But it still is true that 30% effect is no penalty at all--in fact, if your DoT ticks more than 3 times, the item is actually stronger against you than anyone else. And in games where the main enemy AP carry is a Brand, Teemo, or Cass, I could totally see an Irelia, Illaoi, or Darius picking up both Spear and Adaptive Helm to completely nullify that champion.
: Spellbinder should at least charge while moving, like Luden's did. At least, the way it was designed seemed like it would. Maybe it's just me.
I believe Luden's still gives you that same effect. Spellbinder's problem is that the only thing it gives you is AP and movespeed, so... damage and movespeed. Many mages don't care about the latter, and the former is competing with Deathcap/Void Staff for damage. And am I going to choose conditional 80 AP that takes 100 spells to use and lasts for 4 seconds, or am I going to choose a permanent 40% total AP? The choice is obvious.
: Your as assassin example i counter-productive, because if you see ad assassin literally only have one choice for all but one section getting beefy, both being eon and then bc which isnt even theirs. In fact the only ad class with such item diversity was adc's, but again it seem more like its niche and troll builds. Adc used streaks, BC, DB, DD, divers only using DB from assassins, but they are closer to assassin then not. But that isnt unique to just ad, mages all use each others items, in fact Liandries is a battle mage item yet artillery and burst mages use it too. Morello, became a all purpose item for everyone. In fact if you want to complain about ap itemization then complain about ap assassin itemization they have almost no items specialized for them. I guess assassins need items then, no special items for the slayers or divers too lets give them items too then. They all build the same items, items literally do nothing to ruin game balance. Think about it add a new item then it just replaces another item then more items get taken out. Spellbinder was added but never used, if it gets buffed then another item will be removed from builds. itemization being bland isnt a good reason at all add more and more items, unless ap champions are struggling completely then yes, and it isnt items that is doing it, they jsut overall need buffs.
> Your as assassin example i counter-productive, because if you see ad assassin literally only have one choice for all but one section getting beefy, both being eon and then bc which isnt even theirs That's just not true though. Assasins like Talon build Black Cleaver as a core item, and it's not unheard of on others like Rengar. The point was there are several items that appeal to different champions and different playstyles, even though they all have the same or similar stats. Their passives and actives make them appeal to different champions and different playstyles. > mages all use each others items, in fact Liandries is a battle mage item yet artillery and burst mages use it too. Morello, became a all purpose item for everyone. In fact if you want to complain about ap itemization then complain about ap assassin itemization they have almost no items specialized for them. Mages all use each other's items because the items are poorly designed and don't work with different playstyles. They're just "here, have more damage." And that's the exact reason Liandry's is still bought on everyone (at least, if they don't need Grievous Wounds). It's literally just... are you a mage who needs more damage? Here, have more damage. THAT IS NOT AN INTERESTING OR WELL-DESIGNED ITEM. All carry items give more damage. That's why they're carry items. Now, if Riot released an item that gave you 80 AP, 10 CDR, and some meaningful reward for landing spells from 900+ range, who would use it? Artillery mages and nobody else. Because it would be a waste to buy it on, say, Annie, Katarina, or Brand. That's the sort of meaningful itemization I'm talking about. Spellbinder is a poorly-designed item as I explained above because: A) it provides only AP and movespeed (which not all mages even want). B) Its active charges WAY too slowly, at 1 charge per spellcast. C) when you activate it, it gives you... more of the same stats it already gave you. Woohoo! What a unique and interesting reward! It's always going to be either worse than Deathcap or better, because it fills the same role. Damage.
: It's really not that broken. I don't know what the fuss is all about. *It works pre-mitigation, so it has anti-synergy with all other kinds of damage reduction *It only works at 30% versus dots or multi-tick abilities, so no abuse there *You need to build a fairly substantial amount of AD to get any real mileage, which will already make you squishier *It's fairly meh in duels, which is where most of the champions that would want it usually shine *Its second passive is windowed with a sometimes risky trigger. Not seeing a problem.
> *It only works at 30% versus dots or multi-tick abilities, so no abuse there Unless I'm gravely misunderstanding how the item works, the damage reduction is applied to each tick of damage at 30% effect. This means that it will prevent MORE damage against any DoT with more than 3 ticks of damage (which is most of them). For example, Cass's max-level Q does 255+70% AP damage over 3 seconds. It ticks damage seven times (just checked in practice mode), so each tick is 36.4+10% AP. At just 100 bonus AD, Spear of Shojin gives 15+10=25 damage reduction. Against DoTs, that's 30% or 7.5 per tick. 7.5 reduction x 7 ticks of damage = 52.5 total reduction over 3 seconds. And Cass has just lost 20% of her base damage. Now, stack that with an Adaptive Helm and you may as well remove DoT champions from the game. Not that anyone would be too sad to see Teemo go.
: And you've stated it with your example, ad is far more unique in terms of stats compared to ap champions. For example no two ad champions use the same stats compared to ap. For example the skrimisher subclass is almost all ad with the exception being jax that actually even builds ad anyway. Also I believe that it wasnt until the assassin rework and maybe juggernaut rework too, when item passive literally became core for so many of the ad class. Black clever for juggs and duskblade for them too, however mages still and almost always have remained almost always relevant and offered so much to teams even without these items. Simply because ap and mostly mages in general offer so much utility to teams. So the question isnt really what items do ap champions need, its more why do ap champions need more passive or actives?
The problem is that AP itemization is really bland, as the OP said. There's no build diversity because the items frankly aren't that different. Whether you're a burst mage (Brand, Annie), an artillery mage (Lux, Vel'Koz, Xerath), or a battlemage (Anivia, Taliyah, Swain), you buy the same items. It basically goes like this: I need CDR/mana to survive the laning phase, so I'll buy whichever {{item:3802}} upgrade is better. I need boots, and there's basically only one choice there: {{item:3020}} . (Merc's need an update to address the rampant irreducible CC, but that's a separate discussion). I need to ramp up on damage, so I'll buy {{item:3165}} or {{item:3151}} , whichever will give me more damage in this matchup. 300 HP is okay I guess (although artillery mages would love a different stat), but they both offer it so what's the difference? I need more damage, so I'll buy {{item:3135}} or {{item:3089}} , whichever will give me more damage in this matchup. As you can see, there are usually about 2 choices for each step, but the choice is always between: A gives me more damage and B gives me more damage, so I'll take whichever gives me the most. The itemization is just bland and flat. I've already compared it to ADC itemization, but we can also compare it to AD assassin itemization. Basically, the stats they want are: AD, lethality/armor pen, and movespeed. But they have options that offer meaningful choice and vary significantly based on playstyle and champion. Why? Because their items have strong but distinct passives and actives. Going to get in their face and stay there? You probably want {{item:3071}} to shred their armor and offer you a bit of beef. Prefer to burst them down from invisibility or ganks? You want {{item:3147}} , helps you sweep wards and gives you an up-front burst of damage. Need to roam? You want {{item:3142}} for its out of combat MS and its active. If you're diving more and taking a lot of punishment after securing a kill, there's {{item:3026}} . Note that these stats aren't even that great for an assassin, but as an item many of them buy it. Why? Because its active is tailored to an assassin playstyle. Mages need items like that, items that play differently based on their active/passive design rather than just "here, have damage."
: You mean items like {{item:3907}} which were added but no one builds. In the end of the day mages and ap champions are going to realize they can't have diversity because almost all ap champions need the same fking thing. Mana, cdr, and Ap. There is always a better item then these new items introduced. It seems like the recent ap item changes made the build diversity worse. But thats because ap champions are really not even as diverse as ad champions are.
To me, that suggests a lack of effort on Riot's part. Yes, AP champions usually want the same 3 or 4 stats (mana, CDR, AP, pen/health). But that's also true for ADCs (crit, AS, MS, and AD), assassins (AD, MS, and lethality), and vanguards (MR, armor, HP). Just look at the Zeal items for an example of different niches for items with the same three stats. Phantom Dancer is meant for dueling. Statikk for waveclear. Rapidfire for sieging. Runaan's for on-hits. Frankly, Riot could try harder to make AP items with passives or actives that benefit different subclasses of mage. Like "If you hit an enemy with a spell from further than 900 range, X happens" would only appeal to artillery mages, or "when you land a spell on an enemy, gain X effect for the next 1.5 seconds" would benefit burst mages. It is possible to design interesting items for every class. Spellbinder's problem is that requires an enormous amount of charging to pay off (1 charge per spell cast is awful), and the payoff is just... more of the stats the item already gives. That's not an interesting item.
: This game is not just about OMGFLASHYPLAYS!!!! sometimes winning the lane/outplaying is forcing nothing to happen and just outscaling.
Yes, the game was once like that (and I prefer that style of play). But it's not like that anymore. Riot's been changing the game towards flashy plays for at least the past 3 seasons. They've made changes that try to force interaction in lane and discourage passive farming/scaling (mana changes, loading gold into cannon minions, new scuttle changes mean you have to contest it). Those changes overwhelmingly benefit certain classes (e.g. assassins, duelists, and ADCs) at the expense of others. My point was that doing nothing isn't an "outplay." It's playing passive and scaling up. There really are few ways to mechanically "outplay" a Zed, since his kit and itemization gives him way more options than, say, an immobile mage. He gets to poke from a distance, and when he wants to go in, he gets to choose when to do so.
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Kitten of Evil

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