Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 19
Heya Meddler, thanks for doing these posts! 2 questions for you: 1) Have you considered removing the double-tear combination to avoid hybrid abuse (specifically ezreal)? 2) Is any more work being put into Karma after the scrapped attempts at changing her W?
: Although with the mana sustain you are free to build a very aggressive AP ezreal. Imagine this for tank shredding (thinking about it hurts) {{item:3020}}{{item:3285}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3089}} + {{item:3165}} or {{item:3135}} Or sustain EZ {{item:3027}} {{item:3146}} Or 1 shot EZ now (especially if electrocute works with W + Q combo in not W +E + Q/AA) {{item:3020}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3042}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} AP Tank EZ {{item:3025}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3102}} Although What I am going to try in a custom as soon as new EZ comes out is (If I fine a way to make New EZ jungle with Dark Harvest work I am sure it will be broken. Dark Harvest Keystone {{item:3089}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3042}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3020}} Another thing is you can just do a stupid strong AD EZ mid like this AP and AD Ezreal will now play the same so what would it matter? {{item:3042}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3158}} Or {{item:3042}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3153}} The point of the matter is I think he will be much healthier overall. AP EZ is not great currently and it can always be fine tuned later.
You're right, AD mid will be stupid strong. That's not the issue. The mana sustain doesn't even pay for the use of his W (it refunds the spell cost, and the 60 goes towards W). It's not as impressive as you think.
: Good thing he can one shot turrets if he plays AP :D
You mean if he's got 1200 ap which is inclusive of all of the dragons, baron, an elixer and no boots? Guess what? So can literally everyone else. Ziggs does it much scarier, tbh, as does nasus, yorick, etc. Viegar is even scarier than ziggs.
: Ugh, I did some math and brought some different Ideas for many posts regarding the new Ezreal. I am acutally really excited to see him on the rift with his new W. He may be a healthier AP EZ then ever before. I will share this post below. Also I do not understand 1 thing, why does he have to be AP mid, I mean he could be hybrid or AD mid with this new ability. you will see what I mean below. Dude you are too focused on the "AP" part of Ezreal. AP Ezreal will still be viable, but what you are not looking at is hybrid or Double tear Ezreal will be absolutely disgusting. I am even thinking it would be broken strong and will have to be tuned down. with his New W he gets mana sustain, and high single target damage just thinking putting the numbers alone here lets look. Old EZ Lvl 18 with just Lich Bane ATTACK DAMAGE 102.5 Lich Bane - 80 AP - 75% base AD + 50% AP (76.875 + 40) 116.875 damage OLD W rank 5 - (250 + 80% AP) (250 + 64) 314 damage Q Rank 5 - 115 + 110% total AD + 40% AP (115 + 112.75 + 32) 259.75 Total combo - 116.875 + 314 +259.75 = 690.625 New EZ Lvl 18 with just Lich Bane ATTACK DAMAGE 102.5 Lich Bane - 80 AP - 75% base AD + 50% AP (76.875 + 40) 116.875 damage New W rank 5 - (255 + 60% bonus AD + 40% AP) (255 + 32) 287 damage Q Rank 5 - 115 + 110% total AD + 40% AP (115 + 112.75 + 32) 259.75 Total combo (Q damage + Lich bane and W proc) - 116.875 + 287 +259.75 = 658.625 damage Now looking at this with 80 AP with the Lich bane you only lose 32 Damage. What you haven't though about was how much better his lane will be. He gets a refund on mana, and now AP Ezreal scales really well with Gun blade I want you to look at this. This would Make AP ezreal able to sustain in lane no problems. Old EZ Lvl 18 with just Gun blade Base ATTACK DAMAGE 102.5 Gun blade + 40 AD and 80 AP Total AD 142.5 Total AP: 80 OLD W rank 5 - (250 + 80% AP) (250 + 64) 314 damage Q Rank 5 - 115 + 110% total AD + 40% AP (115 + 156.75 + 32) 303.75 Total combo - 314 +303.75 = 617.75 New EZ Lvl 18 with just Gun blade Base ATTACK DAMAGE 102.5 Gun blade + 40 AD and 80 AP Total AD 142.5 Total AP: 80 New W rank 5 - (255 + 60% bonus AD + 40% AP) (255 + 24 + 32) 311 damage Q Rank 5 - 115 + 110% total AD + 40% AP (115 + 156.75 + 32) 303.75 Total combo - 311 + 303.75 = 614.75 That is a total loss of 3 Damage from 1 combo, and you now have passive sustain from W for mana and heal for all damage dealt. For AP ez I would recommend Starting either + or or or With mana not being as much of a concern as there was no mana refunds on EZ's you can build much differently I would go with either or (I wonder if Luden's Echo Passive procs new Ezreal W) Full build I would think Although This Build would probably be disgusting for AP ezreal for straight damage with the AD and AP scalings.
Let me throw some math at you that uses more than just 80 ap. Ezreal loses 20% ap in his combo (10% shaved off of his Q and 10% shaved off of his W). At 200 ap it results in a net loss of 40 damage At 400 ap it results in a net loss of 80 damage At 800 ap it results in a net loss of 160 damage But wait, there's more -In team fights, ezreal is landing more than 1 q, period. Assuming that, he's losing 10% ap damage on every single one. -Ap ezreals who were even remotely worth their salt would hit W on multiple targets. Turning it into a single-target spell loses a LOT of potential damage (assuming you're hitting 2-3 targets with it, it's losing 250-500 +90%-170% ap). This is a tremendous buff to hybrid, yes. If hybrid is going to be oppressive, please, for the love of all that's holy, TONE DOWN THE AD RATIOS INSTEAD. They're adding an AD ratio, and then nerfing the AP ratios to compensate. That is honestly just stupid.
Rioter Comments
: Account was hacked, contacted support for help to recover it, so they banned me
Heya, I had a similar experience of getting hacked, I left the country for 2 years during which I didn't have wifi, and my account was hacked, then perma'd. Riot was extremely responsive, I got a real person right away, and after proving my account to them, they revoked the ban and apologized. I'm sorry that your experience was so much worse and I hope you can get it resolved. It must be frustrating, but I'd hope that you don't get too bad a perspective on Riot for it, I think times like this are the exception, not the rule.
Bârd (NA)
: On release. Then they made it so Bard and allies go hella fast through the journey, so maxing that out became more valuable than some more HP. Now, the most you'd do is a second point at level 4 to get through a tough lane.
https://champion.gg/champion/Bard/Support?league=gold ATM highest win rate is maxing W second. I honestly like it as a bard player, his heal is heavily undervalued imho
: Let's chill with some Blitz!
I don't want to sign up, but I think it's legit that you're trying to help players be more comfortable with the game. Cheers dude!
ak521 (NA)
: DEFINITELY NOT TROLLING
The problem is, what system could you develop where this would be caught and punished? -It is impossible for Riot to manually watch every game that gets a report -Players rarely have the wherewithal to post time stamps, and even watching those portions would be extremely time consuming and possibly misconstrue the game (For example, if this was Ahri's perspective, she could've been chasing a Pyke that just went invisible. Bad example, but I hope it gets the point across) -Nothing would make this pop up on an automated scan. Death counts are unfair, because many non-trolls just have bad games and die a lot.
Jobriq (NA)
: Nexus Blitz: Blessing of Ivern
Uhm, that's more like blessing of Mordekaiser... Blessing of Ivern would be replacing every minion with Daisy instead.
Crocele (NA)
: Does kennen R still hit akali in her shroud?
This is tricky, since Kennen's R is technically a "targetted AOE" (it applies a targetted hit effect in an AOE around kennen).
: Currently Busted Champions
The only champion on the list who I have a problem with is Yi, because he requires effective teamwork to take down (and that is notably absent), but I don't even think he's busted, just too binary in design. Everyone else... meh.
Rioter Comments
Bârd (NA)
: {{champion:420}} E and {{champion:83}} E count as projectiles
I stand corrected on Illaoi, but yorick's is not. See http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Projectile BTW Illaoi's E thematically and by appearance should not be a projectile.
: Sorry I did not read the whole thing, but to say that its useless to melee champs is just wrong. Melee champs abilities and poke can be blocked easily. Second he wants to be in melee range as he has Q poke so he does not need to worry about poke or AA to walk up to a melee champ vs a ranged one.
List of melee champs who have projectiles, and therefore whom the ability does nothing against: {{champion:12}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:83}} That's almost a fifth of the champion pool. And there's a host of other melee champs with skill shots which aren't horribly important to their kits we could include too. Those champions are balanced around not having poke (so they have much better all in) and yasuo will flop against them. But Yasuo's all in will wreck projectile champs who aren't built for all-in at melee range. That's why wind wall is so negatively polarazing.
: Yasuo's Wind-wall is balanced, but its execution is what breaks him.
I've posted a similar analysis in the CT thread, so I'll be briefer here. Even with your recommended changes, I still feel that the windwall is an unhealthy design, for one main reason. It is an extremely polarizing strength. It is (literally) useless against melee champions, but it's (somewhat absurdly) powerful against ranged champions. This means that if Yasuo gets into lane with a melee champion he will really struggle, but if he's versus a ranged champ, he's a serious problem (compare his top lane VS bot lane win rates on this. 48% win rate top, 55% win rate bot). This means that Yasuo is a champion where the lane is decided in the champ select, rather than the lane itself. Projectile and skill shot champs feel almost powerless, when mixed with his ability to run around the minions and effectively dodge skill shots. The larger issue with the windwall (and with many champion designs) is that it seemed to be designed based around why Yasuo needed it, but with a failure to consider the larger implications. The ability is one of the most team-fight warping skill sin the entire game. If used correctly, it can literally disable many ultimates and decide an entire teamfight. For as long as Yasuo has this in his kit, the rest of his kit has to be kept deliberately behind because of the sheer power the one move brings to his kit. I think that windwall would work a lot better if: 1) It was primarily a self-defense mechanism and 2) it was less specific to fighting a single type of champion (ranged). Good examples of similar defensive abilities include 1) Pantheon's passive 2) Fiora's Riposte 3) Vladimir's pool Suggestion on reworking Wind Wall to be healthier Wind wall now protects a portion of Yasuo (think Fiora's vitals) from damage for X seconds This would make the skill more based on skill expression, less of a team-oriented thing less emphasized on ranged-only defense I'm sure someone else can come up with something better, but I wanted to throw out a suggestion to demonstrate my point, on what a healthier defense would be.
: > [{quoted}](name=Koechophe,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=28nNMfnH,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-09-01T05:17:28.116+0000) > > I really appreciate your bravery in posting an unpopular topic, but I have to disagree with aspects of your analysis. > > 1) You state that each champion has clear strengths and weaknesses. _Clear_ strengths and weaknesses are fine. _Polarizing_ strengths and weaknesses are when we get into trouble. > Let's imagine, for instance, a champion who could passively ignore all ranged auto attacks, but took double damage from melee auto attacks. You can see the problem, right? They would walk into lane VS a quinn and utterly anhilate her with little counterplay. Likewise, they would walk into lane VS jax and get creamed. This is an example of when the strengths and weaknesses go too far, to the point where they are toxic because you're either stomping or getting stomped. Well, League IS a strategic game. If people are going to act like the strategic parts of the game are important to the experience, then they should acknowledge that the game *needs* to have strong and weak match-ups. If everyone has a "pretty good shot" at winning against everyone, then the game isn't strategic anymore and it boils down to finger speed and brute forcing your way through match-ups. That said, some champs are going to need to do some things well and some things poorly. Sometimes those things are based around objectives. Other times they're based on lane match-ups. > CT kits are in danger of this. Take Yasuo (the poster boy). His wind wall is frankly a polarizing strength. Utterly useless against melees, but able to potentially negate almost all of the power of a ranged kit. It blocks several ultimates and fight-defining skills with relative ease from the yasuo player and makes it a game of "yasuo hard-counters XXX" or "Yasuo gets wiped by XXX". His E is in danger of being the same; it makes him capable of dodging just about any skill shot, but has little to no power vs people with targetted gap closers, so champs like Wukong and Jax will wreck Yasuo, while champs like brand or Syndra will really struggle. Yasuo's kit isn't necessarily polarizing, seeing how his best lane, remember, is *bot lane.* Not mid or top, and those two lanes have similar win rates to each other. BOT LANE is his best lane statistically speaking, not because of the ranged champs (mid lane has ranged champs) but because he has help from a support. > 2) It is unfair to say that Zoe doesn't have escapes or self-peel. She doesn't have an escape. She does have one potential move for self-peel, which I said in my opening post. > A free movespeed boost tacked onto every summoner spell, plus the potential to always have a summoner spell available from the large minions is reasonable self-peel, and far more than the likes of brand or velkoz. In my honest opinion, Zoe is fine except for her W. There are a number of issues with it: > -Far too reliant on RNG (what the minion drops) > -far too much power is shoved into a 1 point skill (potential for free ignites/heals/flashes, garunteed free speed boosts and damage on every single summoner spell > -Invalidates the other aspects of her kit (needing to land her skill shots to work). You can find several videos of Zoe killing people full/0 with just her passive and her W, because in the right circumstances it just gives too much power. No, that's not "reasonable" self-peel. If a MS boost is self-peel then Sona has some really reliable self-peel, and we know that's not true so I'd hope we can refrain from spinning things that way. Outside of that, Idk if it was all too important for her W to have damage on it. They could have probably just not done that and had a bit more damage on her passive to compensate, but that's really the major flaw I see in W. The other stuff is fine and fits her theme. > 3) Much of the complaint against CT champs is the hyper-mobility, which I honestly can see. If you think about it: > -Akali has 2 dashes in her ult, and a dash on her W + mini dash even if it misses > -Yasuo has a no cd dash on his E > -Kalista (yeah, let's just not even talk about her) > -Zoe becomes hyper mobile in teamfights with summoner spells and the passive movespeed, plus the portal jumping all around > -Thresh offers a gap closer as a support (not a common thing back then, only Alistar had one) and a free team-mate dash, which is unheard of and the source of almost all frustration on Thresh's kit Akali has *less* overall mobility than before. Yasuo, like I said, can only dash *into* enemies. Mobility and shit? Yeah, but it's not free mobility like Riven or something. Trying to cap it any more than this would make it pretty dang hard to be Yasuo. I'm glad we're agreeing that Kalista's a mistake. Zoe isn't a mobile champion unless we're saying Sona and Janna are mobile champions. Thresh is DEFINITELY not a mobile champion. When have hooks counted for mobility creep? Are we saying Leona's a mobile champion that adds to mobility creep? > People complain about his kits because they offer more functionality. I don't think the solution is to make every kit overloaded in that way; it would make the game too complicated with too many confounding variables. Most of his kits aren't overloaded. The main one I'd let that moniker slide on is Yasuo (ironic, right?) but even then, he wouldn't operate right without things the way they are. The other kits have features and their game play pretty much stays in that realms without grabbing from too many other places within their designated sub-classes. Akali's big thing is her shroud and reaching targets, so you're not gonna see a ton of extra outside of the things that highlight that. WW is designed around chasing down enemies and drain tanking, and his whole kit revolves around that. Zoe revolves around stealing actives and bursting from flanks...a lot of these kits have about 2 descriptors that lay out what each champ's about. That doesn't really scream "overloaded".
Unfortunately, I feel much of your tone is raw argument rather than discussion. On a few points: 1) Weak V.S. strong matchups are fine... to a certain degree. But if the matchups are almost unwinnable, then the game turns into a place where the bulk of strategy happens in the champion select, which is not healthy or engaging. This is why clear strengths/weaknesses are fine, but they are unhealthy when polarizing. It's all about whether we want the game to be decided in round, or in champ select. I, for one, prefer the former, which is I why I take opposition to polarizing matchups. 2) Yasuo's statistics being inclined towards bot lane doesn't take away from my point. Melee champions in bot lane is now somewhat meta, and could be easily used as a counterpick. Yasuo himself exists as a counter-pick to range and skill shots, which creates a polarizing strength that is extremely problematic. 3) Your comparison between zoe and sona is asinine. Zoe gets a free flash any time her opponent uses one. Zoe has the potential to get free flashes, slows, ghosts, mini-dashes and the works from every single large minion, which allow her to push with impunity. The speed boost (which is, by the way, 3X more powerful than Sona's at level 1, and more than 4X more powerful at max rank) is just icing on the cake. Zoe can be hyper-mobile in teamfights when flashes are thrown around because she picks them up, and she gets a free summoner spell with literally 100% up time if she kills the minions with the balloons. And Janna is a poor comparison because Janna is the queen of peel. I would be terrified of a mage with as much peel as Janna. 4) Akali has more mobility than before. Akali's W is a free dash to either her shroud or an enemy she hits, at much longer range, and her ult can be used however she wanted. Before, she only had a gap closer. Now, she has the decision-making process on how to use her mobility. In addition, her passive gives speed boosts in fights, making her more mobile yet. Yasuo is hyper mobile in lane, not in that he can escape fantastically (though he can get away pretty well if he's skilled, anyone will acknowledge that), but because he can dodge almost any damage by dashing around the minions like a mad man, and chase exceedingly well. As was stated before, thresh is an example of mobility kreep because he has a long range gifted dash, which is literally the ability to give mobility to another champ. As far as being overloaded: -Akali and WW were well done, I don't feel they are overloaded. Akali is difficult to deal with, but lacks in reliable damage, which helps make up for it. -Thresh, yasuo and zoe are overloaded. Thresh offers so much utility that his kit has to be balanced on a razor's edge, and he's left as innately squishy to compensate. Yasuo is given far too much defensive utility for a supposed hyper carry. Zoe's W is just overloaded, the rest of her kit is manageable but there is too much power shoved in that thing.
: CT designs are some of the best designs in this game
I really appreciate your bravery in posting an unpopular topic, but I have to disagree with aspects of your analysis. 1) You state that each champion has clear strengths and weaknesses. _Clear_ strengths and weaknesses are fine. _Polarizing_ strengths and weaknesses are when we get into trouble. Let's imagine, for instance, a champion who could passively ignore all ranged auto attacks, but took double damage from melee auto attacks. You can see the problem, right? They would walk into lane VS a quinn and utterly anhilate her with little counterplay. Likewise, they would walk into lane VS jax and get creamed. This is an example of when the strengths and weaknesses go too far, to the point where they are toxic because you're either stomping or getting stomped. CT kits are in danger of this. Take Yasuo (the poster boy). His wind wall is frankly a polarizing strength. Utterly useless against melees, but able to potentially negate almost all of the power of a ranged kit. It blocks several ultimates and fight-defining skills with relative ease from the yasuo player and makes it a game of "yasuo hard-counters XXX" or "Yasuo gets wiped by XXX". His E is in danger of being the same; it makes him capable of dodging just about any skill shot, but has little to no power vs people with targetted gap closers, so champs like Wukong and Jax will wreck Yasuo, while champs like brand or Syndra will really struggle. 2) It is unfair to say that Zoe doesn't have escapes or self-peel. A free movespeed boost tacked onto every summoner spell, plus the potential to always have a summoner spell available from the large minions is reasonable self-peel, and far more than the likes of brand or velkoz. In my honest opinion, Zoe is fine except for her W. There are a number of issues with it: -Far too reliant on RNG (what the minion drops) -far too much power is shoved into a 1 point skill (potential for free ignites/heals/flashes, garunteed free speed boosts and damage on every single summoner spell -Invalidates the other aspects of her kit (needing to land her skill shots to work). You can find several videos of Zoe killing people full/0 with just her passive and her W, because in the right circumstances it just gives too much power. 3) Much of the complaint against CT champs is the hyper-mobility, which I honestly can see. If you think about it: -Akali has 2 dashes in her ult, and a dash on her W + mini dash even if it misses -Yasuo has a no cd dash on his E -Kalista (yeah, let's just not even talk about her) -Zoe becomes hyper mobile in teamfights with summoner spells and the passive movespeed, plus the portal jumping all around -Thresh offers a gap closer as a support (not a common thing back then, only Alistar had one) and a free team-mate dash, which is unheard of and the source of almost all frustration on Thresh's kit People complain about his kits because they offer more functionality. I don't think the solution is to make every kit overloaded in that way; it would make the game too complicated with too many confounding variables. I do agree that: 1) CT gets too much flak 2) He does have some successes (WW rework and Akali rework were great imho) 3) he introduces new ideas (sometimes successful, sometimes not so much).
: Statistically *where* is she at the top? If you've truly read my posts, you would have seen that I support the fact that she is actually *not* statistically at the top. OP.GG supports this fact; statistically, Nami is 12th in their objective tier list and 9th in overall win rate. As for play rate, she is *also* nineth. http://na.op.gg/champion/nami/statistics/support My Source. She is, in fact, fine. This is not an opinion. This a fact that is supported by a multitude of evidence, from the lack of overall changes she's directly had in two seasons(one direct change that was an actual, overall buff to an ability that is slow moving and easy to dodge) to the fact that on the website that is considered the go to for League of Legends stats she isn't even in the top five. And even if you choose not to believe or take OP.GG's stat's seriously, you can simply look at her change history and then look at the change history of all of the other enchanter's in the game. Nami has had one balance change specific to her since season five and that was the lower of the CD on her Bubble in patch 7.15. You know how many changes Janna, Taric, and Lulu have had in the last two seasons? At least five or six and most of them are nerfs. What this tells you is that any strength Nami currently has is a direct result of all of her competition continually being beaten down with nerfs; she herself isn't any stronger or weaker than she was on 7.15 when they gave her a lower bubble CD. Her competition, however, is. If you want Nami to be "weaker", perhaps you should look to buff her competition. I know that the boards are all on a "I hate Janna/Lulu/Taric" binge but them being nerfed is the direct reason that Nami would be strong. When you only have one viable enchanter, that enchanter is going to do well when she plays. Me saying "Nami is fine" is not objective. It is a supported fact. Objective implies that me saying she is fine is said without a scap of evidence based only gut feelings when it is in fact the exact opposite. Also, I appreciate how you said you wouldn't justify your sarcastic statement and then you went on to do it anyway.
I suggest you read the original post and the stats cited therein. I also suggest that you refrain from using OP.GG, as they have an incredibly small sample size which focuses only on high-level korean players. The proof of this is in the fact that certain champions have been known to not even crop up on OP.GG because they're not played very much, to the point where there's literally no data on them.
: His analysis is the champion is over tuned and needs nerfing. Everyone has read his post and has disagreed and supported their ideas with evidence of their own. This is, first and foremost, a discussion board. Ergo, people are going to disagree with people, especially if the subject matter is a champion like Nami who has been a staple example of what a well designed enchanter is. I fail to see how any of the posts here are not objective; just because they disagree does not mean they arent objective.
IMHO he wasn't saying that people here are wrong, but more that a lot of the comments have quite a bit of rage in them, rather than discussion. This post has definitely elicited some strong feelings from people. Look at the highest upvoted post in the thread, which starts by saying "if this is your actual opinion, you should quit". I did not anticipate how earnestly people would defend the fact that Nami is fine, regardless of the fact that (no matter where you look) she is in or near the top for supports with a high win rate and pick rate, and has been for a number of patches. An interesting note was that Nami was beating out Janna, lulu, rakan and Karma statistically even before they were nerfed. I recognize that stats aren't the end-all in league. But they are the only impartial evidence we can draw upon, other than analysis. I do think it's valuable to note that many Nami players feel that Nami isn't frustrating to play against and is balanced. I suspect that there are others out there who would agree with the analysis that elements of her kit are toxic, however it definitely appears to be a minority.
: How is she *not* fine? As I said, she's literally a champion that hasn't had changes in actual seasons. The last balance change she had was a very slight change in health regen, bumping it from 5.424 to an even 5.5 in patch 8.3. Before that, the last change was actually a direct nerf because her Ebb and Flow would now make her draw minion aggro on top of being an insanely expensive tool that, honestly, she shouldn't really use to poke with too much. Almost all of her changes in the last season have been bug fixes for her skins or changes that I think a lot of champions universally got(such as the changes she received on 7.22 when they introduced Runes Reforged). The last Real Buff she got was 7.15 and it wasn't even to her heal but to her very small, slow moving Bubble on 7.14. She is completely fine as a champion and has only risen to the top because what else can she do when all of the other enchanter supports were slammed with the nerf bat. Nami is the last man standing and I'm of the opinion that if you want to fix Nami, buff the other enchanters and the other all in supports. Oh and maybe finally get mage supports out of bot lane as they inherently make champions like Nami, like Sona, like Janna and Lulu more important and impactful and overall better for laning phase than the likes of Thresh, Alistar, Blitz, and Leona. Why take any of these tanky, melee supports bot lane when they can't help you survive the devastating poke from a Zyra or a Brand? Or, for that matter, why take them against the likes of Bard whom they continue to buff to this day despite him being able to do massive damage in the laning phase for a support and, honestly, being able to do even more the longer the game goes on. Even if you're just basing you're entire argument on Win Rates for her "not fine"-ness, that still doesn't reflect any issue with the champion. Currently, on OP.GG, she has a 50.96% winrate. We could round it up to a 51% if you like. And her play rate is about 8.5%. That seems high but directly below her is Thresh. He's sitting at basically the same winrate(50.86%, so again rounds up to 51%) but his play rate is far higher. *15.79%*. Pretty much 16% of people play Thresh support and he has a 51% winrate. And if you go up a little higher on the list of supports you see Pyke who actually does have at 51% WR without rounding and he has a playrate of 13.61%. And this isn't even in the top five winrate supports. The fifth highest winrate support is Alistar; 51.60% winrate(so could be rounded up to a 52%) with a whopping play rate of 18.75%(19% rounded). Why are we even sitting here talking about Nami when Alistar's winrate and play rate are massive and he fits the idea of a generalist far more harshly than Nami. Do you need a tank? Alistar. Do you need sustain for free? Alistar. Do you need engage? Alistar. Do you need disengage? Alistar! Do you need tons of CC? Alistar again! Does it need to be reliable CC? Whoop whoop, can we say Alistar! Need to play passive and be safe against assassins? Alistar. There is not a single comp that Alistar cannot fit himself into. But we're complaining about Nami who is squishy, low mobility, has insanely high mana costs, and isn't even in the top five best supports right now in either their objective tierlist(where she's number 12) or in winrate(where she's number 9). I restate my opinion and back it up with everything above that Nami is *fine.*
Please prefer the statistics in the original post. Riot themselves have stated that Champion.gg is unreliable. Also, you are flat out wrong. According to Champion.gg, nami is resting at a 53.3 win rate with a 95% pick rate. https://champion.gg/champion/Nami/Support?league=
: Thinking about what can be done with Master Yi
Imho the most frustrating part of Yi is not only that his damage can't be avoided, but also can't be built against in a majority of cases. Due to the rageblade resets, he slams 2 onhits on every attack, which unloads a crazy amount of true damage with his E (and if he's going for the popular Bloodrazor => BoTRK, a lot of % of hp damage too). I've seen fed Yi melt a 3k hp 600 armor Rammus in 2 seconds, which shouldn't be able to happen. On that basis, removing his E with another ability would be lovely (though there's still the issue of on-hit abuse in his passive that can make him too good at tank killing)
: Her W does power up when bouncing, if she has 200 AP or more. This is very easy to achieve. Even at 100 AP, which is about a support AP item, the amount it drops off becomes nearly unnoticeable.
My suggestion is that it starts off increasing (a higher number, maybe 20%) and has no ap ratio, then lower the base effect to compensate, forcing the player to actually use the bounces instead of being able to use it effectively as only a heal.
: My head hurts
But how does your SOUL feel?
: technically this already exists. pykes ult ignores shields for example. so does urgots ult. once it started the cast, you can not be saved by heals, shields or anything short of invulnerability.
But this is still co untered by: 1) zonyas 2) Trynd ult 3) Invulnerability 4) building actual health 5) Revives And Pyke's is also countered by heals. That's way too many things. Just make those mechanics trueER damage too!
Muxxik (NA)
: I think Karthus ult would be a good candidate for Truer damage. People shouldn't just get to Zhonya when they're at like 10 HP. They should die. It should also kill Tryndamere during his ult, even if he ulted at high HP and would have otherwise lived.
Rioter Comments
InTheory (EUW)
: That's exactly why it always bother me when people start bitching about a champion because of their win rate and nothing else. Having a high win rate doesn't need to mean that a champion is unhealthy for the game nor does it say players dislike them. You see a high win rate and start about "this is because champion is unhealthy you can see here". I give you an essential counterargument: >**Despite having one of the highest win rates on supports for a pretty long time - she remains one of the lowest ban rates in comparision to other meta supports. ** Players like playing Nami and players like playing against Nami. THIS is **good** game design. This is what shows **healthy** gameplay
I think it's a bit unfair to say I complained about nami because of nothing but her win rate, based on the post and the analysis given. Likewise, no support has a particularly high ban rate (https://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend), other than Morgana, who is banned because she is a hard counter to certain comps.
Antenora (EUW)
: How can they nerf her without gutting her though? They can't really hit the Mana cost on her heal... It's already the highest mana costing non ultimate ability in the game at rank 5 (and she maxes it first) Ebb and Flow has a 130 mana cost at Rank 5 and is maxed first.
Off the top of my head: (not saying all of this, just a list of thoughts) -Tone down the Base damage on her e -Reduce the base effect of her W, but make it so it powers up when it bounces, rather than powering down -Increase the cooldown on her W -Reduce the duration on her E (6 seconds to use it) -Any of the suggestions in the actual post.
: > [{quoted}](name=Koechophe,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=HmMqvlOx,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-30T16:44:46.458+0000) > > Just as a note, encouraging players to leave the game because you disagree with their opinion isn't ususally grounds for a decent discussion. Exactly where i encouraged you to leave the game because I disagreed with your opinion? That was a figure of speech "dude, Nami is one of the most balanced champ, if you complain about her you are going to complain about almost every champ balance" > > To touch on a few of your points: > 1) A meaningful portion of her damage is not tied to her bubble. She maxes it last 75% of the time (see https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Nami/), prefering to max her E. At level 9, the damage from WER will be 800 base (not counting any scaling, aas or aery procs). Her damage is often unnoticed because of how it's applied, but it's definitely there. The bubble is the ability with the best damage and scaling. It is actually maxed last BECAUSE it is unreliable and only used for CC, which greatly reduce her damage potential. Also, you would want to use E to enhance a teammate damage, so your damage combo hopefully should not include your E, as it would be better if it is included into your ally damage. > 2) The reason Nami's range is a problem is because it's not her range from the enemy, it's her range from her ally. She only needs to be in range of her ally to be effective, aside from her long ranged wave. > BUT, you don't know if you can hit reliably enemy when you have to heal at max range. That is not Sona Q, Nami W range is not good > As for your assessment of Nami's role being a healer, that's actually one of my main points. **It seems difficult to ascertain her role because she is an extreme generalist. She has healing, cc, utility, engage, disengage, poke and burst.** It almost wouldn't be an issue if she didn't have such powerful healing, because healing literally invalidates early trades, making a stale lane. Soraka is only balanced because her healing instead damages her, and because she is extremely vulnerable to all-ins, in a way Nami is not. Nope, nami role is pretty clear. She is an enhancer, She has good healing and poke, situational engage, disengage, potentially good CC that is difficult to apply. She has no burst, no tankiness, and one of her more effective core ability is one of the most difficult in the game to hit Please, stop exaggerating the qualities in Nami kit
> [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=HmMqvlOx,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-08-30T18:06:47.336+0000) > > Exactly where i encouraged you to leave the game because I disagreed with your opinion? > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=HmMqvlOx,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-30T11:39:32.235+0000) > > Dear OP, if you truly think Nami kit is unhealthy, you should probably stop playing LOL A few thoughts (though I get the feeling that your mentality is more argument than discussion, so it is probably wasted) -Just because Nami's E adds to an ally's damage does not mean that the damage isn't a strength of Nami's. Leona is one of the highest damage supports, mostly because of her passive which adds damage to allied attacks. It's still damage that the champion brings, even though it's creditted to the other champ. -It is a bit unfair to say Nami doesn't have good burst. Let's compare it to Sona (who is known for good burst). These numbers assume Sona lands her Q + Passive (with Q version) + R, and Nami lands her W + E + R Level 6 Nami: 360 + 2.1 AP Sona: 368 + 1.5 AP Level 9: Nami: 455 + 2.1 AP Sona: 487 + 1.5 AP Level 11: Nami: 600 + 2.1 AP Sona: 629 + 1.5 AP As we can see, Nami keeps up with Sona quite well, and if she were to land her bubble, the burst even exceeds sona's (though the bubble is by no means required.)
: Dear OP, if you truly think Nami kit is unhealthy, you should probably stop playing LOL, since, as far as the Riot balance design go, her current iteration is going to be one of the most balanced champions you can ever get in the game. On topic of the point you mention: **1)** Yes, Nami is very strong at healing in early game. But, isn't that kinda her role? I mean, aside from Soraka which is THE designated healer and scale far better than Nami, she is supposed to be the second/third best healer in the game. And as you said her healing is even gated by an high mana cost and relatively high CD, so she can't really spam her W for healing only purposes. Having said that, Nami's Ebb and Flow is a problematic spell, because basically Nami self damage is tied to that spell, and there is in theory no place in the current kit where you could shift some damage without creating even bigger balance problems : - if you further increase Q damage, it basically become Morgana Q but with a stun rathen than a root, which probably is not something people are fine with - if you further increase the E bonus damage, you create an ability even more obnoxious as ally damage boost than the Janna shield that people hate, and unlike Janna shield it can't even be countered (additional AD given by Janna shield holds until shield is up, Nami's empowered 3 AA remain there regardless till her E duration expire) - if you further increase damage on her ult, you basically make a 2750 range lane wide AoE execution spell (with a huge slow attached if the ult is not enough to execute) which is not...well...optimal So, Nami is stuck with a spall that gives both poke and ally heal, and that is admittedly difficult to balance (and in the past she was really broken at times because of it) Now, the only spot left where you could place damage is her passive if you change it, but it is debatable if removing an enchanters passive from an enchanters without giving her enchanters power back somewhere (in form of W buff to heal/CD/mana or retaining some kind of version of the current passive but placed on another of her spells) does really fit with Nami's therme...so, probably keeping things as they are is the lesser of the evil, especially since 8.2 general changes about minion aggro made it even more difficult to her to pull out free poke without retaliation as you have to nail the proper bounce angle Also, it should be noted that Nami's Ebb and flow is problematic because her heal is tied to her damage which tematically clash, but it is also true that she isn't the only champ where the healing is tied to other effects, I mean, Rakan heal is the consequence of hitting his damage spell (and it scales far better later on as result), and Sona give a non irrelevant shield...heck, Alistair does not even pay with the usage of a spell... **2-3)** I disagree with your statements, Nami damage is not good nor reliable, a relevant chunk of itis tied on hitting a very hard and slow skillshot, so if she can deal a relevant amount of damage, is because the Nami player is pretty good and should not be penalized for that. And Nami can't even build a lot of AP to amp up her abiliies as her damage skills have pretty lackluster scaling (aside from E, but that is going to be uses to enchant another person damage, it is not self damage), and her heal scale pretty badly because of the fixed CD and mana costs Nami does not have tankiness, has medicore range aside from ult since her most reliable skill for damage + sustain (again, her Ebb and Flow) is a measly 725 range and is not that powerful mid to late game, and in general her CC/engage is mostly tied to her difficult Q skillshot or an high CD ult The truth is that Nami is on a very weird spot in the amount of skill required to master her, and in risk/reward ratio to use her spells. Even the worst players around can still do some powerful things reliably with her (ult + E + they can always use W in a way, even if not efficiently and they all give access to her passive effect), but to truly master Nami you got to reach a very high skill level in mastering her W range and angle bounces in the later stages of the game and find a way to hit in an efficient way a pretty difficult skillshot like her Q while empowering the necessary footwork not be caught when your ult CD is down since you are extremely squishy **Conclusion** Nami current strength is the result of the current state of meta, both in ADC AND support role which for once is favoring her as many of the champs/items/runes that counter her are weak at the moment; she is not inherently too strong, and when some different pick will emerge in those roles, Nami will be pushed back to a lower tier Her current kit, as long as you manage to keep in check W numbers which I think Riot has managed to achieve given the current state of the game (items/runes), is relatively fine and balanced, and I find your suggestions really really bad and that would push her towards an unbalanced role (do you really want her W to have more range that wat currently has and becoming really cancerous in lane? do you really want to make her a poor version of Sorala/Sona with no damage by making her W a non spammable shield? do you really want to straight nerf her for good by hitting her passive usage?). She is not problematic at all, tbh, and it is better to not fix what is not fundamentally broken In a broader sense, if Riot ever decide to touch her kit (but there are way more problematic champions that should be tackled before her + new released champions, so it is going to be a veeeery long time before touching her), yeah, her kit design could be surely improved by moving her self damage away from her W, by either putting it on the passive (and tieing some version of the current passive to her ult rank) or creating a new damage spell on her E and moving her current E enchantment effect somehwere else on the kit (maybe placing it as bonus reward on hitting W on your enemy first so you give rewards to use her heal aggressively)
Just as a note, encouraging players to leave the game because you disagree with their opinion isn't ususally grounds for a decent discussion. To touch on a few of your points: 1) A meaningful portion of her damage is not tied to her bubble. She maxes it last 75% of the time (see https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Nami/), prefering to max her E. At level 11, the damage from WER will be 600 base (not counting any scaling, aas or aery procs). Her damage is often unnoticed because of how it's applied, but it's definitely there. 2) The reason Nami's range is a problem is because it's not her range from the enemy, it's her range from her ally. She only needs to be in range of her ally to be effective, aside from her long ranged wave. As for your assessment of Nami's role being a healer, that's actually one of my main points. It seems difficult to ascertain her role because she is an extreme generalist. She has healing, cc, utility, engage, disengage, poke and burst. It almost wouldn't be an issue if she didn't have such powerful healing, because healing literally invalidates early trades, making a stale lane. Soraka is only balanced because her healing instead damages her, and because she is extremely vulnerable to all-ins, in a way Nami is not.
Alzon (NA)
: > Imagine a champion who has all targetted spells that are just as powerful as your skill shots. Any ADC with Stormrazor zzzz The thing about Nami is that she generally has more room for counterplay than the likes of Janna and Lulu. Bubble is easier to dodge than Twister and Polymorph. Tidal Wave is easier to dodge than Monsoon or Wild Growth. Even when jumping on her or her team, dodging Bubble is easy. It’s a delayed ability that only affects a small circle. Either save some ability for Tidal Wave or be tanky enough that you can survive being CC’d for a couple seconds just once. Because if she has to use Tidal Wave as peel, she’ll be a heal bot unless an ally lands a stun that she can chain with. Tidecaller’s Blessing is barely noticeable in teamfights and is therefore a nonissue. Good supports, especially enchanters, will typically save each of their abilities for a certain event, whether it’s following up on an ally or responding to an enemy. If Nami is forced into spreading out Bubble and Tidal Wave due to a threat being particularly sticky (preferably multiple threats), then she’s already lost due to Bubble’s unreliability. Unless, of course, said sticky threat(s) tunnels and forgets about Bubble.
There's a reason why people complain frequently about stormrazor as well While certain individual elements of Janna/lulu's kit may be easier to play with, some of the powers in Nami's kit make her more difficult to balance. For example, neither of those champions provide sustain in lane, which opens poke up as a viable lane path. Lulu as well is a very damage-focused support in lane, which requires landing her spear and getting in range to AA, both of which are dangerous and difficult. The reliability of Janna's kit has often been an annoyance, but her kit is hard focused on disengage, and does not have as powerful engage, nor does it provide any form of sustain, making it more balanceable.
: Why Urgot needs some love.
This is my honest opinion, but when Urgot is strong top lane, he feels very oppresive. Ranged top laners are frustrating simply because of how much power their range gives them. They can poke and cs with relative safety, and there is little the melee top laners can do in response. The only thing that balances that out is that ranged top laners (Should be) vulberable to all-ins, and squishier than the melee ones. In the case of urgot, he's not. In fact, he wants an all in, and he can most likely win it. He suffers from "gnar syndrome". He has range, but he also has enough engage power that the weakness (that being engagement) of being a top laner is gone. I dislike playing against urgot top lane for these reasons, and I don't feel he's particularly weak in the current meta. I know it feels frustrating that he can't use steracks or ravenous hydra, but honeslty, his item options seem valid enough to me. It's no more frustrating than the fact that thresh/rakan can't use relic.
: Interesting thread. I thought that Nami was one of the more healthy and skilled enchanters, so when I saw your post, I wanted to respond to some things. Note while I do play support, Nami's one of those champs I want to play more of but my three mains, Sona, Soraka, and Zyra are getting all of my attention. 1. For an enchanter, I feel like Nami has one of the least problematic kits because she can either be passive or aggressive. Her Ebb and Flow has an interesting mechanic to it in how it bounces. I don't feel like Nami is a problem or bad for the game. In fact I think that her being a generalist really helps her out as an enchanter, as too often they are more passive in playstyle. Nami on the other hand gets to do interesting stuff. 2. I think right now her strength lies in her early game. Looking at lolalytics, she's got a high win rate with most of the first items her players pick up. Looks like 98% of the time the first item she gets has a minimum of a 53% win rate and caps out at 58%. I've got to think that some of this is meta related, at most it's means she's good in the early game. This really makes it hard for me to ask for a change only because the meta is slowing down. Further more it seems like her winrate peaked around patch 8.15. 8.17 just hit so I'd like to see riot hold off on her. Sona is the only other support who is doing consistantly well after her first item and she's also got a high win rate. Alistar's 2 best first choices put him at a decent win rate. Blitz, Taric, and ZIlean (kinda) are also in the same boat. 3. Right now I feel like there's a vacuum for enchanter supports. Riot's bleeped up Janna but Sona and Soraka are okay if you sort by tier. Lulu is worse than Janna ATM. 4. I don't think Nami's heal is a problem. Her Ebb and Flow gets very expensive in terms of mana cost so you really have to be a little judicious if you max it early. Manaflow band helps with this but 130 mana is nothing to sneeze at. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In conclusion I really don't think Nami is the problem. Once I looked at the win rate of the other champs doing well, they were all getting the 53% winrate or higher on their first items. This is a meta/early game problem that a number of different types of support champions are exploiting. Nami is doing well in this current early game meta, but I really believe the larger issue has to do with champs that do well in the early game. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nami/support There's an interesting graph if you look at nami's win rate by game duration. She wins a lot of games that end before 20 minutes and she falls off after 30 minutes or so. If you want to argue there's a problem with nami, instead of focusing on her W, I'd really look hard at her early game in general.
I agree that 53% win ratio, in itself isn't that scary (though it's actually 53.8, which is a fair bit higher), but when coupled with her 16% pick ratio, that is the highest cumulative win ratio/pick ratio in the entire game at the moment. In other words, no champion who is picked that much wins nearly that much. And Nami's win ratio has been holding quite steady and high for the last 5-6 patches, which suggests some issues. While I appreciate your post, I'm having a hard time really finding your logic. It's mostly just a stream of "I don't think it's a problem." The statistics you show about Nami are true of almost every support; they have a stronger early game than late game, because they inherently don't scale. If you were to contrast that with non-traditional supports who buy damage/tank items, you'd find the inverse. This is to be expected and has little bearing on the topic at hand. I'd like to dive in a bit deeper with some of the things you brought up. Why generalists aren't healthy: You stated that Nami is allowed to play effectively both passively and in hard engage. This is actually why generalists are a balance issue. Imagine you're playing Blitzcrank, who is almost useless in passive play, but thrives on engagement. How fair does it feel if Nami has just as much engagement power as you, but also can heal/sustain your adc and poke in lane as well, both of which you are powerless to do? Or how about when you're playing Leona, and Nami is able to bring as much engagement power to the table as you, but also can heal and sustain between fights, and can disengage from fights while you can't? It feels unfair to the Leo because Nami shouldn't be able to do everything leo can and more. On the flip side, if Nami's strengths aren't as pronounced because she has so many, her kit ends up feeling blah. She fails in engagements compared to hard engage champs, but doesn't have the powerful disengage or lane sustain of other enchanters. There is no team comp (other than Yasuo) that makes you think "Nami would work really well here", or "We need a Nami". TL:DR If generalists are good, they feel overloaded, if they're average, they feel weak. Why overly reliable kits are an issue: Skill expression is core to Lol. The feeling you get when you do something hard makes it extremely fun. That's why Riot keeps putting grab moves on champions; it's a hard skill shot that has a powerful, immediate affect. It's fun, and makes you feel good. Conversely, kits with low skill expression feel bad to play against. Imagine a champion who has all targetted spells that are just as powerful as your skill shots. You walk into lane and painstakingly set up the perfect skill shot, slamming into the adc. And then the other champ points and clicks, doing the exact same thing. It feels unsatisfying to play against, and unsatisfying to play as, because you didn't have to work for it (This is why people always complain about Garen's kit, even if he's not powerful. There is too little skill expression, so players feel cheated if they lose against a Garen). A certain level of reliable skills in a kit is fine, but when there is too much reliability, the kit begins to feel oppresive and inevitable Because there is so much power tied into nami's skills that have so much reliability, the potential for counterplay feels less. If you poke the adc, Nami will heal them. There is no potential to poke the adc out of lane unless you're able to do it so hardcore that Nami runs out of mana (Which will not happen with an experienced nami). That nullifies several types of champions right off the bat. Beyond that, Nami will make the adcs attack slow and hurt more. It can't be avoided either. Nami's wave will also be able to disengage the fight. There is minimal skill expression in much of her kit, her R has the potential for it, but it mainly lies in her Q. If you're playing a support who takes a lot of skill, it feels bad to have the nami who only clicks W and E on the adc be more effective than you, and it feels bland for the Nami as well. TL:DR: Low skill expression with high power is toxic.
Rioter Comments
: Hey Koechophe, I was the one that deleted the post, so I'll share my thinking here. First, keep in mind that we're being quite selective with the posts. I told the mods in a meeting that we have enough submissions to only accept the threads and really deliver on our vision for G+. It isn't about being "good enough," it's about meeting the goals we have for G+. Having a post not accepted to G+ shouldn't feel bad; if there's something we need to change about our messaging there, we'd love to hear about that. I don't want this to become a sub-board where every post gets detailed mod attention about what, exactly, it needs to do to be accepted the next time it's submitted. We simply don't have the resources (moderator time) to do that. Second, G+ is intended to be for in-depth, analytical discussions. One of the qualities I am noticing over and over in rejected posts is that they are quite broad. Your post attempts to fix three separate keystone runes in the same post, and the result, I feel, is that none of them gets deep analysis. There is some analysis, definitely, but most of the approved posts have a level of analysis that goes further. Laser-focusing on a single concept is a trend I'm noticing for good posts. It's not listed as a requirement because we don't want it to be a hard requirement; if a post is broad and tackles all the issues in a deep way, that can be good, but it's more difficult to do. That doesn't mean the post is bad, but it's not what we're looking for in G+. I was actually thinking about making a similar post yesterday titled "Why secondary Runes should not give damage," and the first thing I identified about my own post, even though I was really excited about it (I'll probably finish it tonight) is that it wouldn't belong in G+. It's too broad, and I actually don't love diving into that much analysis for my own posts; it'll be more of a design suggestion post than a deep analysis post, which means regular G, not G+. So, if you really want a G+-type post, here's what I would recommend you do. Decide which of these runes you care most about. Tell us who *should* want this rune, and why they aren't currently using it. Use data from runes.lol to support the usage claims (using the edit tab there gives you data about use and win rates for every rune on every champ; very handy, if not 100% accurate). For instance, I can see that my main, Swain, uses Phase Rush 68% of the time, with a 51% win rate. He never takes Glacial Augment, despite being the sort of champion that likes to stick to an enemy. I would recommend analyzing several champs against one rune, since the rune is the point of your post, and the champions can be seen as cases that support your claim. Then, propose changes that might make a rune more attractive to some of the champs or classes of champs you mentioned. Show us why this would work. Again, pick out specific cases and explain why this or that champ would want this rune with your proposed changes, and how that would be good and healthy for the game. Finally, consider some problems that your changes might cause, or might be accused of causing. Explain why you aren't worried about those, or why you think it's a good trade-off for the diversity. A balanced analysis, imo, often acknowledges problems with the design and deals with them up-front. I think if you do a good job with that approach, that's more the type of post we're looking for in G+. Merely suggesting some changes for three runes doesn't quite have the depth that we're looking for, if that makes sense. Hope this was helpful, and feel free to reply and we can discuss some more!
Thank you for such a detailed response! Sharing your perspective has helped me understand more of what you're trying to create for Gameplay+. Having a post rejected from gameplay+ doesn't feel bad at the moment, in this instance, it was more of a feeling of confusion as to which guideline was not being adequately followed. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the reasoning, it helps me understand the goals of gameplay+ more. I also wanted to ask, in many posts I make I fear to go deeper because I've found that "Wall of text" posts will often go completely unread or ignored. It's sounding from your response like if I wanted to be able to analyze a larger topic (like all 3 keystones, rather than just 1) I would need to go deeper in analysis and point out some usage and statistics, which would inevitably make the post much, much longer. At that point, I would worry that because of the length it wouldn't be read. Do you believe that the culture of gameplay+ is sufficient to not worry about long posts being ignored? Like you posted in your reply, if you don't want this to be a place where people post their threads to get answers for why they were rejected, I'd recommend that there is some sort of outlet for that, not because players should feel bad about being rejected, but because if a player posts in Gameplay+, they obviously thought their post was in harmony with the Gameplay+ guidelines and goals, so letting them know why their post wasn't is one of the best ways to help reinforce and educate people on the culture you're trying to accomplish. Once again, thanks for the time and explanation!
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: Can we stop please with "because high ELO" arguments and look at the bigger picture?
I think it's less to do with champion balance and more to do with specific issues. The one Yi presents is hyper scaling. Hyper scaling is not an issue in pro games, because they are better at shutting down singular champions and don't make as many mistakes in order to lead to that scaling. The same applies to isolated-kill champions, early-game spike champions, etc. In order to balance low elo, you don't have to play wack-a-mole with champions, just look at the issues that exist in lower elos and not higher ones.
Rioter Comments
: As a Talon main, I believe Talon needs a nerf.
I actually don't mind talon as much as some of the other options. At least you can feisably avoid much of his damage and it's not frontloaded into a single second. He is also much weaker early in lane than others. If he was to be nerfed, the only thing I would touch is his cooldown on E, maybe make it take a bit longer before you can recast on a different wall. He's got clear weaknesses, and I'm not too bothered with him. Assassins that do bother me are fizz, rengar and nocturn, mostly because you can't do anything about their damage.
Glory97 (EUW)
: Literally every single immobile champion is unplayable right now?
It's a bit unfair to say that 11 of those champs are "imobile". {{champion:69}} Is immobile {{champion:14}} Has a long-range dash/engage in ult {{champion:136}} Has a huge out of combat movespeed boost {{champion:33}} Has a massive movespeed boost {{champion:82}} Is immobile (But playrate stats balance out his winrate stats) {{champion:30}} Is immobile {{champion:103}} Has 3 dashes on her ult {{champion:12}} Has a gapcloser + Free cleanse {{champion:77}} Has a massive movespeed boost {{champion:90}} Is immobile {{champion:83}} Is immobile {{champion:26}} Has (practically 2) movespeed boosts {{champion:104}} Has a dash {{champion:119}} Has a movespeed boost {{champion:74}} Is immobile So I count 6 immobile champs. And of those: Casseopia is a hard-counter to mobility, which is what makes her so effective Karthus is always a powerful pick because he's useful in teamfights after death and has cross-map damage Malz has a free Banshees which can often get him out of ganks and assassinations Yorick is a juggernaut. No one's ever complained about them Heim is flat out zone control. You're not addressing the champs people are complaining about with not being mobile. {{champion:34}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:22}} and more
Done25 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Koechophe,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-27T00:22:14.425+0000) > > I agree with the point, but here are a few notes: > > -Those finished items are way out of line. 80 Ap, 10% cdr and 100% mana regen for 2300 gold? Compare that to Hextech GLP (Which is one of the most efficient items) and it gives very comprable stats, but for 500 gold more. The same applies to the other two as well, 700 hp and 16% shield power are crazy high. They have good stats, but that's *all* they have. For 500 more gold GLP has 10 more AP, +10% more CDR, and has an immensely powerful active. For 600 more gold Warmogs gives an extra 100 HP, and the most powerful out of combat sustain effect in the game. Not to say that the stats can't be slightly lowered as needed. When making the original post the AP was 70 at first, but it just didn't seem very good when compared to the 90 AP and 20% CDR of the GLP. > -Your solutions don't do enough to dissuade other lanes from grabbing the item, particularly remnant. If these items are even close to the same level of power as regular ones, they'll crowd out other options due to the power of having the additional wards. Turn your thinking to things that only affect supports, the mp5 idea was a good one, but not well enough executed. The health on Aspect (I assume you're talking about the HP support item) could be lowered in exchange for increasing the missing HP% power on the heal. Since the healing portion of the passive benefits supports who group, rather than the Garen who solo pushes down top. > -Coin (and its upgrades) are intentionally the "I don't have a good other choice" item. They need to be kept ambiguous so that people who can't use the others have a viable option. Adding shield power to them would unnecessarily tie them to enchanters, which will make them too sub-par on non-enchanter users. Except they have already have good options. Aspect is for tanks/melee and Watcher for mages. Coin is for enchanters who can't use the other two items easily. Aspect is bad for them because the enchanter class, as a whole, scales off AP, but they can't really proc Watcher easily either as they often have multiple ally targeting spells. The only coin using support I can think of that can't really use +heal power is Thresh. Though the only reason he uses Coin is because of how hard it is for him to use Aspect.
> [{quoted}](name=Done25,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-27T00:32:32.771+0000) > > They have good stats, but that's *all* they have. For 500 more gold GLP has 10 more AP, +10% more CDR, and has an immensely powerful active. For 600 more gold Warmogs gives an extra 100 HP, and the most powerful out of combat sustain effect in the game. Not to say that the stats can't be slightly lowered as needed. When making the original post the AP was 70 at first, but it just didn't seem very good when compared to the 90 AP and 20% CDR of the GLP. It's actually only 80 ap on GLP. And the active of being able to ward > slow+damage active of GLP. It's a superior choice and would be abused. The same applies for targon's. Sustain is nice, but wards are nicer. > Except they have already have good options. Aspect is for tanks/melee and Watcher for mages. Coin is for enchanters who can't use the other two items easily. Aspect is bad for them because the enchanter class, as a whole, scales off AP, but they can't really proc Watcher easily either as they often have multiple ally targeting spells. The only coin using support I can think of that can't really use +heal power is Thresh. Though the only reason he uses Coin is because of how hard it is for him to use Aspect. There are some who don't. Some ranged supports who cant stack it effectively, and some melee champs are too squishy to use targon's effectively
Done25 (NA)
: Support gold gen items, and how they can be improved.
I agree with the point, but here are a few notes: -Those finished items are way out of line. 80 Ap, 10% cdr and 100% mana regen for 2300 gold? Compare that to Hextech GLP (Which is one of the most efficient items) and it gives very comprable stats, but for 500 gold more. The same applies to the other two as well, 700 hp and 16% shield power are crazy high. -Your solutions don't do enough to dissuade other lanes from grabbing the item, particularly remnant. If these items are even close to the same level of power as regular ones, they'll crowd out other options due to the power of having the additional wards. Turn your thinking to things that only affect supports, the mp5 idea was a good one, but not well enough executed. -Coin (and its upgrades) are intentionally the "I don't have a good other choice" item. They need to be kept ambiguous so that people who can't use the others have a viable option. Adding shield power to them would unnecessarily tie them to enchanters, which will make them too sub-par on non-enchanter users.
: What sucks is I wanted to try all the new champs that had been released since then in Hide & Seek, I feel like Kayn would be fun as hell as a hider, and Pyke would be a nasty seeker
Flip those two around and it works too. Pyke would be a mean hider and kayne would be a brutal seeker
: I would ult with Lux because "it was vision". Good times.
As someone who played a lot of hiders, wasn't my favorite experience to have the hiders "CC" me to death all day in groups. My games were usually played with the rule of "only 1 helper", where if someone was being chased by the seekers, only 1 person could help, only 2 people per bush, etc.
: how is this thread about divers if you're listing assassins?
That's the point. These champions are divers, but are being played as assassins. This role confusion causes the game health issues listed above.
: Does anyone else really miss Hide and Seek?
I loved H/S so much! It was honestly amazing training for kiting and for running away. I played Bard almost exclusively and I started dying a lot less in my games as a result.
Ifneth (NA)
: I like your suggestions. Here are some mechanical ideas to make them happen. **Health balancing.** If we want Divers to build AD-HP items like Titanic Hydra or Sterak’s Gage, rather than stacking burst with Duskblade, Stormrazor, and Shiv, then we should consider rewarding them for building HP and punish them for not. -%Missing Health sustain -Lower Base Health growth -Lower Base Armor and Magic Resistance -Higher Base Armor and Magic Resistance growth **Burst Limitation.** A caster who kills targets quickly at close range is a Slayer, rather than a Diver. We should reduce the AD and AP ratios on the class’ burst abilities to encourage them to stick around for basic attacks, while increasing their base damage growth to compensate. -%Health Damage added or increased -Lower ability damage ratios -Higher ability base damage growth per rank -Higher Base Attack Damage growth
I love the post on some practical ways we can go about this. Here are some thoughts: -I think that incentivising defensive stats is sufficient. If we were to remove their innate tankiness, I believe it would only contribute to their issues with feast/famine playstyles. I actually think that, in many cases, divers need more tankiness built into their kits, and subsequently we can subtract power from their burst to compensate. This would help flatten out their success curves. -While lowering the ratios on Divers burst moves is good, I think a better approach would be transitioning their moves from burst into sustained damage. Here's an example of how this could be done: On Wukong, the following changes could be made to his Q: Q: Crushing blows (8s Cooldown) Wukong's next three basic attacks are enhanced. The first two gain 50 range and deal an additional (5-25 + 5% ad) damage and shred (4-16) armor for 4 seconds. The third blow gains 100 bonus range and deals a bonus (25 - 125 + 8% of the target's missing health), halfed against targets who were not affected by the first two strikes. I'm not the best at number balance, but I hope that conveys the concept. If this were in place, Wu would no longer be able to burst people as effectively, but he would be a lot healthier and more successful as a diver. Here's another one, for Diana. Her major problem is the frontloaded burst of Q + R + R. If we tweaked the mechanisms, we could lower the frontloaded burst in favor of sustained damage. R: Lunar Rush (20/18/15s Cooldown) Active: Diana dashes to the target enemy, dealing magic damage. Lunar Rush's cooldown is reduced by 2s for every blow she lands on an enemy afflicted by moonlight. When Moonsilver blade's damage is triggered, this effect is tripled. (moonlight's duration would probably need to be extended for this to function correctly). These changes aren't the fix-all for these champions, other areas of their kits would need to be tweaked to consolidate and compensate, but the idea behind them is simple. Remove front-loaded damage in favor of sustained damage.
: I think Root cause of these issues could be burst damage levels in the game generally , if every champion on the enemy team ether has a large amount of CC or a very large amount of burst , building as a diver is designed to do isn't productive because in any fight with more then one person even investing two or three items into tank still won't allow you to live when you dive in for any significant length more , its simply more effective to make sure if you manage to close on someone that they die instantly otherwise your just gonna get CC'd and killed regardless of your sustained DPS you theoretically could have As for solutions , basically if damage levels were down a significant chuck across the board , and small adjustments to remove burst and add sustained damage to divers they could get back into a healthy place , I don't think that any list of diver changes can really make sustained damage the best without that overall game changes to damage
Like I talked about in my post, the availability of "universal damage boosts" (AKA Damage that isn't tied to your kit at all and can always be used, such as electrocute or stormrazor) is definitely part of the problem. The relative efficacy of tank items vs damage items also plays into it. But I think there are some core issues with the actual kits themselves, too. Take Diana for example. If she's supposed to be a diver, her damage should be focused over time. But in her kit, only her passive serves to fulfill that fantasy. Her main combo for attack has always been Q + R +R + AA, which is a massive burst of damage over less than a second. Her kit also contains relatively poor survivability tools. While her shield is definitely useful, it won't do much to help her keep alive. Wukong is another fantastic example of this. Yes, he has an AS boost on his E, but his main combo is E + AA + Q + R, which unloads a frightening burst in under a second. His kit simply doesn't reward damage over time.
XeroKimo (NA)
: Oof this was going to be my topic next week
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Koechophe

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