: I Really enjoy this idea but the first thing iw ould do is allow players to see all rune choices not just the keystone in game somehow. also i would prefer stuff like your primary tree dictates wildcard choices, say in resolve,sorcery and precision you get 1 wildcard, domination lets you take none and we can make inspiration give you two. you can even implement a new inspiration keystone that allows not only turns your two secondary path into wildcard slots but also lets you choose multiple from the same row which means you get the normal inspiration choices then any other 4 runes from the other for paths
I really like the Inspiration idea to take multiple in a row, but having only Domination not give a Wildcard is unfair to anyone who wants to go into that path.
Meddler (NA)
: Pretty confident we'll be making changes of some form to Stormrazor, strong but disliked is a bad state for an item to be in. Essence Reaver's on our list of items we'll be looking at too, though less sure about outcome there. Certainly hearing feedback about it though.
Essence Reaver now is only really useful, and abused, on Jax, Yi, Renekton, and maybe Lucian. It became really niche to whoever can abuse the passive the most and on those cases is really hard to deal with.
: The reason we removed the power from his late game is largely due to how his performance scales with MMR (he's better at low MMR, scaling down the higher MMR you go). There's a fairly sizeable discrepancy in how long games last between low MMR and higher MMR (low = slower games, high = faster games), so we removed the majority of the power from his lvl 16 which he hits far more frequently in lower MMR due to games lasting longer. He's also more of a terror when being played in the jungle, so we wanted to leave more of his dueling tools in tact for lane.
As a Jax main I can tell you this change will do literally nothing other than really extended duels late-game, which is nowhere near the problem that most people have with him.
ozzirp (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rmlthl,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FsE5FU2M,comment-id=0046,timestamp=2018-11-30T17:18:28.283+0000) > > Any chances of changing how Essence Reaver works so it can once again be a decent option for Xayah, Ashe and even Jhin? Changing how the Flare thing activates even if it is gets adjusted in the process? as a fighter player the item seems to have changed from a adc item and more of a fighter item. Seems like this will always happen unless riot starts making more range/melee items.
Essence Reaver went from being a good mana sustain and cdr adc item to being only useful and comepletely broken on Jax, Yi, and Renekton. They really just need to start differentiating all items between range and melee and make different versions of more used items for each. It would make balancing items much easier when one side abuses an item that is supposed to be for the other side.
Vekkna (NA)
: {{item:3086}} {{item:3057}} {{item:3133}} range-only Trinity, please! 250 mana 40 AD 30% ASPD 20% CDR 20% Crit 5% MS 100%-125% Spellblade A sheen proc at 100-150% base AD would preserve some of the dueling/poke power from Stormrazor but is moderated by base AD scaling. If tuned correctly, I think abuse cases could be limited while still being a reasonable option for most of the roster: * Keeping the sheen below 200% (probably 100% tbh) limits appeal to Ezreal, Lucian * Keeping AD below 50 limits appeal to Draven and MF * Primary appeal should be to Xayah, Sivir, Tristana, Ashe, Jinx, Kindred, Twitch all of whom enjoy the early mix of stats and build path * Could boost viability of traditional ADC builds on MF and Quinn I could maybe see it being problematic on Vayne and possibly Kai'sa. Not sure about Varus or Kog.
This idea is actually really cool. I'd be down.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: oooooooooooooor just revert runes reforged and make all the runes free. There you go, problem solved
As much as I agree with you and would prefer it that way, this change is proposed on the assumption that that will never happen.
: The bonus stats feel entirely pointless imho. I end up just taking double adaptive + hp, or AS/adaptive + hp on every single champ. How this is supposed to be an upgrade that the very deep old rune pages.. I have no idea.
The point of the post wasn't to address the stat shards... It was to allow picking a 7th rune...
Hügö (EUW)
: With the introductuon of runes reforged I reduced my rune pages from 20, of which I used around 15 effectifly, to around 5 which I use. In my oppinion runes reforged failed completly with the intention making diversity.
Having more than even 2 Rune pages now is completely pointless because you can make the entire thing in champ select.
Rioter Comments
: Well the gems and other free items are probably just like in game editing tools in a way (kinda like sand boxy) and the 350 item dunno maybe. They did mention awhile back that they where testing new starting items to add diversity.
When they were teasing Runes Reforged they showed Doran's Dagger as part of starting item testing so I'm wondering if they are might finally add it.
Rioter Comments
: Just want to say that (with the minor aside of being confused by taste for blood) these changes look amazing and I was sad when I realized they weren't actually coming to the game.
I wish they were too. One of our ideas are coming tho (not because of us of course). They are FINALLY decoupling the base stats form your rune tree choices.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zaghyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EEt2aUA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-06T20:01:35.480+0000) > > **EDIT: By the suggestion of a Rioter, we are adding some of our thoughts and reasoning behind most of the changes.** > Hi! First off love the detail you've gone into here. Really good to see a well thought out process for each of these. Couple of points I feel you might need to consider: 1 - Precision: Conqueror still for AD only? Really needs to be available to ranged and AP champions. Maybe a reduction in true damage for being ranged instead of not being viable at all? Could use a "does not stack with other forms of true damage" as well. 2 - Sorcery: With Aery you've basically made it bad for anyone who cannot make use of both parts. This is fine as long as you replace that elsewhere, but you don't. You also leave Nullifying orb as is when it should be useful against AD as well. No 4th keystone? and a LOT of "use an AA" when most sorcery users are dead if they get into AA range for a large portion of the game. Might want to reconsider these things. 3 - Inspiration: Glacial Augment...no change...If I'm honest this was the one I was most interested in seeing... I mean on the whole the ideas are sound, but you have to consider who you want to be using them. I mean anyone with IE would now have a 40% true damage with Conquer, Electrocute will now allow assassin's to do AOE damage, mages now need to walk up to 550 units to proc their keystones, AD still have a free shield against AP while AP get no shield against AD (ironic as it's in the "AP" runetree xD) and Glacial Augment might as well just be deleted...it's just not used. Taste of Blood change looks great, but would be too abusable on AOE/Burst champions. Scorch change also looks good but as many have said before: it should be improved and made a 4th Keystone as a replacement for DFT: maybe with some sustain or utility thrown in?
Thanks for the feedback, man! I'll answer each of your points in order. 1. I like both of your ideas with tuning it down for ranged to use it. Our issue was that if ranged champs use it with IE, they get far too much true damage, so Conqueror was changed to be ability damage only. In all honesty, IE shouldn't even have true damage on it. As for it working for AP champs, I'm not sure they it needs to be changed for them as much as they need a new Keystone in Sorcery that it similar. 2. As for Summon Aery, the shielding supports and mages who use this best use it well, which is great, but the damage portion allows far too much poke from supports in lane, adding to the damage creep. Other abusers, such as champions with DoT effects, abuse the cooldown to dish out more damage consistently than other Keystones that should be taken for their damage, making it an unhealthy interaction. Increasing its cooldown still means its useful for the champs who want to use it, but it just lowers its damage output a bit. As for adding a new Keystone, see point #1. Also, nullifying orb essentially being a spellshield is kind of boring, but we could make it so that it works like Camille's passive. 3. We actually have no clue what to do with most of these, Glacial Augment faces similar problem to Frozen Mallet and the old Icy passive from Phage, so we're not sure what to do about it. Eletrocute's damage may be AoE now, but you have to remember that it is only 175 units, which is like Darius auto attack range. Scorch could be made a keystone, but then we would have to make a new rune for that row, and unfortunately that row in nothing but free power, which is what we're trying to avoid. Taste of blood would only work on the first champion hit. It would be high risk, high reward for the heal it provides, making it dangerous if you don't trade correctly. You really have to know WHEN you can get good use out of it. Thanks for the response
: Ah my bad on the sudden impact. I tried to get everything right. Ya these changes would effect lots of champions. But aside from yasuo (who would also likely get super strong) nobody else in the game makes use of spells autos being combined together like riven. Specifically who scale stupidly high with cdr. (maybe ezreal but he breaks everything). Add on that she casts enough spells to almost permenantly be reducing 10-44 damage from boneplating (in a 1v1) would make her hell to deal with. (and believe you me. Neither of us wants that world. Me because I would never get to play her, and you because when I did I would make you sad) That being said, I don't think the overall changes address the core issue with the new system. Changing up the distribution of flat stats is good. However, even with these nerfs the damage is still way way to high. Honestly damage numbers need to look like 2-3 years ago masteries. Where 3% extra damage was super good. The amount of damage in the current (and subsequently your nerfs) is so stupidly high it's like giving every champion a new passive and trying to balance everyone around it. Don't take this as me being overly critical of you and the other guy who wrote this up. But operating in this new system screams of unbalance without any realistic way to fix it. Outside of drastic nerfs to the entire thing.
I see what you mean with the Bone Plating thing. We forgot to put a cooldown on it. And compared to all the damage nerfs we made, the Weaving runes do seem kinda strong by comparison, thanks for the insight!
: Best news ever btw.
Ikr. I've wanted it since Rune Reforged even started.
: ive been saying this since the launch of "runes" reforged and ill say it again. "Runes" reforged is simply the MASTERY system reworked. all they did was change the name from "mastery" to runes and deleted runes entirely. imagine season 7 with ONLY the mastery system. that is what we have right now. yes the runes reforged system gives flat stats, but its impossible to customize those stats to your liking and is entirely dependent on the tree combination you are choosing.
Which is why we put that change in. I don't know if you saw the dev post they made today but they are actually going to remove the base stats from the tree choices altogether and separate them again. Thank God.
: That with both spell weaving runes. One gives armor/mr shred and the other gives Reduced cooldowns, plus a permenant 9% increased damage. Add on 20% ulti cdr and the full healing from ravenous Hunter and she will get bonkers fast. Adding in the new cheap shot in case you want increased cc duration (1 full second on her stun) and boneplating if she wanted to go resolve. Most of these ideas would break riven tbh. (The cheap shot is probably the most overbearing. This would make some of the longer combos unflashable. For example. ERF-AA-WQ-AARQ already is insanely hard to flash. But with an extra .25 seconds on the stun you won't be able too)
What are you talking about with cheap shot? I think you mean Sudden Impact's tenacity thing. As for the Weaving runes, you would only get the max percent bonus after a full combo, making the damage amp less impactful, and the bonus after maxing can only be applied once in a fight. The ravenous hunter change might be a problem. Some of these things you mention could also affect many other champions in the same way. This won't make everything perfect, there would obviously be some balancing that would come after.
: I really like the work you’ve done. I think format wise it’s just a lorn to digest. Maybe a YouTube video to walkthrough it
Thanks! If I was good at editing or had a better computer I would.
AzuBK (NA)
: Some cool stuff in here, thanks for the thoughtful post. Speaking generally about presentation (for future projects perhaps), I'd advise you to go deeper on the specifics of your values and how each solution you propose delivers on those values. For changes like these, the why (values, goals, desired outcomes) are at least as important as the details of the change when it comes to getting people to understand why it's good beyond "looks like it might be cool." Without that information, it's tough to evaluate or challenge your goals, how you are meeting them, and whether the tradeoffs are worth it. One specific call-out I'd make reading this list is that overall complexity of the runes would go up dramatically, which may be engaging when playing around your own runes but runs the risk of making the experience too complicated or overwhelming when there are 10 players in the game with 7 of these runes each.
Thanks for the advice! I see where you are coming from completely. We didn't want to put all the explanations in there because we were worries it would make the post far too large and no one would want to read it. We just put it out there to see what people thought and if they wanted to know why we did something we would explain it to them. That was our only other worry too was whether it would be too complex. We made these changes this way to tackle many problems at once, like too much damage, limited/restricted options (7th rune), fairly boring runes that are only stat buffs and don't live up to their potential fantasy. We wanted to separate the damage from the utility, making the utility stronger on its own and not just an automatic option because it gives free damage. We may go in and add clarity to each of them so they are fully explained. I would love to hear your thoughts on them though and see if there are any specifically you like and why. Thanks for the response :P
: And with that, riven is oppressively overpowered.
If you are referring to the Conqueror thing with 30% conversion on ability damage only then I agree. It should just be 20% on ability damage only, that way it is nerfed like everything else. Our current version is a massive buff to some champs, Riven is a good example. If it's not Conqueror then I don't see what you mean.
: Honestly... I didn't read over your runes. maybe just the first 3 or whatever. I'm just giving you guys a hard time. {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
I know. I am glad you brought the Conqueror thing up tho because it helped me finally convince him that 35% was too high. I thought that were doing that because we had decided to remove the AD bonus altogether. Apparently weren't on the same page lol. And I see where you are coming from about the auto based-stuff in Sorcery. I'll see if I can convince to change manaflow band back to what it is right now. I really don't think it should be a spellblade thing.
: We're pulling those changes for 8.16 - not everything that goes to PBE will ship in the end.
@RiotScruffy If you would care to have a look, my brother and I made a post about some changes to Runes to lower their damage and make them more interesting. It includes a way to decouple stats from runes in a way you might be able to use. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9EEt2aUA-runes-reforged-mass-rework-very-long-post
: Hey remember those conversations we all had about bruisers and assassins being Riot's favorites. Be happy they're on that meta like all the time. You can't turn everything into bruisers. You two are bruiser mains, get over yourselves. The runes we have now are fine. Riot needs to get rid of conqueror if anything. I'd be ok with some adc nerfs especially to Jhin and Lucian. That Aurelion rework I worked on. both of you wanted to turn him into a bruiser. he's a mage and will always be a mage. the same with every mage ever. how often do you see mages auto attacking? stop it.
1. I was never part of you Aurelion rework because I was at work. 2. Tanks are the meta far more often than bruisers are, and if damage goes down across the board, tanks become more valuable. Bruisers aren't the only thing shitting on everyone else right now, and the biggest offenders, the Tri-Sterack champs, got hard nerfed with the Sterack's change. 3. How the fuck does this mean we are turning everything into bruisers, the Conqueror change actually alienates some of the bruisers who abused it because of the AD bonus. 4. Orianna, TF, Azir are mages and have abilities that enhance/encourage auto attacking.
: If only the ghost poro was NEW: Ghost Poro will now ~~attack~~ _sp00k_ enemy champions that enter into its brush, revealing them and their surrounding area for 4 seconds.
AHHHHHH!!! Good catch, we'll change it.
malogrek (NA)
: Electrocute needs to be on a dr system some how, when multiple people use this rune it is actually game breaking and people are stacking it. If it an electrocute goes off on a player the next electrocute should have its damage reduced by a %.
That is a good idea. The rune wouldn't be so frustrating if it had the same damage as old TDL, but on a longer cooldown. Could add that the player who gets hit by the Electrocute gains come buff that reduces the next one within some amount of time, or make consecutive electroctus by the same person in an amount of time weaker. Thanks the feedback.
: I don't know. A lot of these changes seem gimmicky. Whilst I will 100% agree that Runes Reforged right now is unhealthy, I'd much rather revert to the old system, rather than go through and try to balance each and every one of the runes.
I see where you're coming from, but I think the main problem with the current system is that it still feels like the old masteries and a much worse version of the old runes just thrown together. Some of them may seem gimmicky, which they probably are, but that should make them more important and unique if the base stats aren't actually tied to them, like the old system. One of the best parts of the old system was that the stats and passive bonuses were separate, which allowed much more flexibility, but the current system doesn't do that, it just feels restricting. The way things are right now, if they did go back to the old Runes, they would have to make them all free and give everyone 20 pages, because they are way too numerous and complex to be able to make on the fly in champ select. Having a seven point system that can be automated should solve this, and the other old runes can be found somewhere in the new runes themselves.
: [Discussion] What type of items would you like to see in the future?
I Like all the ideas you just listed, but there is also one item I want to see specifically. Doran's Dagger. It was shown during preseason but never released as an AS starting item. I want that item so bad. With runes and item builds, it could change laning styles and choices so much having that. I would love to build it on Jax just to get some AS early, but champs like Orianna and TF.
: For Hail of Blades, I am somewhat questioning the damage on it as well. If it was to exist it would have to be even smaller (maybe 1.5%), because it could introduce a lot of burst for certain champions like (Varus, Vayne) or just about anyone who has a 3-hit Passive. But it's best to give it some sort of other effect if needed instead of the damage, because I like it in terms of it giving something unique other than damage. As for the feedback, no problem. Glad to help out. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/48/Okay_Emote.png/revision/latest?cb=20180601212654
My thoughts exactly. The damage seems a little broken now matter how you look at it since we added a reset mechanic, which is all it ever really needed to be good. Thanks for the response. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: I love majority of these changes. It makes some of the runes that were meh, more interesting and interactive. With these changes you have the availability to play around with certain Runes. ###Some of my favourite changes to Runes have to be... * Lethal Tempo * Hail of Blades * Aftershock * Guardian
We made some of these changes with the thought that they should be an important choice for certain situations and should have the chance to be very powerful, such as the small stun of Aftershock stopping a channel or something like that. We were also careful about making sure the runes weren't too mini-game-ish. While we worked on these together, we are also at odds still about a couple of them. You said you liked the Hail of Blades change, but I want to know what you think about the damage added on to it. Personally, I don't think it should be on there, so I want to have your opinion with how could interact power-wise with the other percent health damages in the other trees and how that could impact tanks on a team level. Thanks for the feedback too!
: Petition to replace Electrocute with Thunderlord's Decree
@ Maple Nectar Have you ever thought of adding the option to select a 7th rune? It would be a single rune from any of the 5 paths, or just the remaining 3, that could be your niche, unique wildcard bonus rune that can change based on what you need. The current system just feels like we are making the best of a bad situation because we are only allowed 6 runes from 2 of the 5 paths. The way the stats are tied in makes it feel restricting at times. It doesn't feel like we are being creative with our choices for the sake of being unique and creative but being creative by finding the optimal build with what little we have to choose from. I feel like adding the 7 the rune would open up a lot of choices and be far more fun.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 23
Are there any plans on starting items in general again? You were working on them during preseason but shoved them aside to focus on the new runes. Doran's Dagger looked really fun and could open up a lot of early customization for runes and items for a lot of champions. Was wondering if you had any plans to go back to working on them.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 8
What if for you could have a slider bar for the stats between trees? Like if you wanted to run precision and resolve, and you wanted Press the Attack as say Jax, then you could get that keystone but also start with some health, if you wanted, for a tougher lane. You could get either all attack speed or all health, or any mix of the two within a range, like getting 7.222... health per 1% attack speed, so If you wanted, you could sacrifice like 5% (of the 18%) attack speed for 36 more health. This could be cool for some pages like getting optional mixes of health/ad, health/ap, health/attackspeed, attackspeed/ad and such, though I'm not sure how having domination and sorcery would work with the adaptive stats, maybe a choice between ad AND ap, which could be nice for hybrid scaling champs early. Also, are there any specific AP item changes you can think of right now that are being tested, and would you consider testing starting items again (Doran's Dagger looked really freaking cool)? Also also, if this split stat goes with in playtesting, would you guys consider doing it for other trees again on the PBE just to let us try it out?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Are there any thoughts on when you might continue starting items testing again? Doran's Dagger looked really cool and could be really good for a lot of champions.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22
Any plans on continuing starting items testing? The Doran's Dagger you showed looked really cool and could be very useful on multiple champions. I would love that in lane for Jax, and I would even use it on Orianna too.
gregab (NA)
: You can primary any of the 5 paths. And once you've picked your primary you can secondary any of the 4 other paths.
> [{quoted}](name=gregab,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=F8us08uT,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-09-13T22:55:26.095+0000) > > You can primary any of the 5 paths. And once you've picked your primary you can secondary any of the 4 other paths. Okay, cool. Thanks for that. I could have sworn that one post way back when the paths were revealed said that Precision and Sorcery could only be picked as Primary paths, but I guess not.
gregab (NA)
: Runes Corner: Three More Resolve Runes
What are your reasons for keeping Precision and Sorcery as Primary only paths. It feels really constricting to have a keystone from the other three and then be stuck with runes from only Inspiration, Resolve, and Domination.
: Runes Corner: Inspiration Runes Slot Sneak Peek
When can we expect more news on Runes from the Precision Path?
Jazin (EUW)
: FINALLY GIVE JAX' ULTIMATE %HP DMG! Reduce the amount of flat dmg and give him some %hp dmg on his third R procc.
I did. It has flat bonus magic damage just to keep that constant magic damage but it also max health physical damage, so its not super overpowered but its there now to deal with tanks. It hurts his burst with it just a little bit but his dps against high health targets is now way better.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
How about you try to do all the work they do before you start bashing them because you aren't happy they don't meet your unrealistic standards. They can't just make everything we ask for in a matter of days, it takes time to do this stuff, and some features take priority over others. If they can do something quickly then they will, but otherwise they need to follow any schedules or guidelines they have made for themselves to make sure everything goes smoothly and efficiently.
Rioter Comments
: Jax exploit/hack?
What was the Jax's name?
Rivini (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kryonik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TT0hHT0z,comment-id=0000001d0000,timestamp=2016-01-26T02:28:28.646+0000) > > ^ > Exactly. So if non-diamond players are the ones doing all this, by your logic, shouldn't their ideas and opinions also be dismissed? He's blinded by rank. That's all it is.
> [{quoted}](name=Rivini,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TT0hHT0z,comment-id=0000001d00000000,timestamp=2016-01-26T02:39:00.554+0000) > > He's blinded by rank. That's all it is. Oh, I know. His logic for anything is either blinded and biased or missing entirely. I'm still going at it with him on another thread.
Rivini (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TT0hHT0z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-25T19:48:27.092+0000) > Maybe they should make distinctions based on rank. > > All **Bronze/Silver/Gold** suggestions thrown out. > **Plat ** considered somewhat. > **Diamond ** and above considered greatly. > > A game should never be balanced around people that do not understand the basic game mechanics but rather on those who do. You don't need to be the best at something in order to understand, teach or fix it. Last I checked, Rioters who work on balance aren't all diamond+.
> [{quoted}](name=Rivini,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TT0hHT0z,comment-id=0000001d,timestamp=2016-01-26T02:22:06.064+0000) > > Last I checked, Rioters who work on balance aren't all diamond+. ^ Exactly. So if non-diamond players are the ones doing all this, by your logic, shouldn't their ideas and opinions also be dismissed?
: Getting stunned/displaced while under black shield (?)
Give legitimate proof that it's a glitch, without dismissing what I say, and without relying solely on what the tooltip says. All you have done is look at the ability from the outside, instead of actually thinking about it and discussing it. If you want your opinions to be believable, you need to actually discuss how it works.
: Getting stunned/displaced while under black shield (?)
Again, Trundle's pillar moving Morgana is not a disable, it is moving because she can't stand inside terrain.
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