Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 24
Hi Meddler, Speaking of mastery curves, I'm curious how the semi-reverted assassins Rengar, Leblanc, and Fizz compare to their assassin class update selves. Is there any data on this or is it not disparate enough to be worth sharing?
: 140% AP AoE damage ability on an Assassin
I mean, it's a: - ultimate - skillshot - on a squishy champion whose kit forces him into melee - that only does that damage at near-max range - with a 2 second delay before it deals damage even after the skillshot hits It had better do some high damage.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 6
How do you feel about TP nerfs specifically in terms of how they impact top lane? My gut feeling is that it will punish them hard for losing lane (very hard to recover from a death without TP), but also make it harder for winning matchups to convert their lead. My concern is that it feels like one step forward, two steps back in terms of the overall work done earlier in the season to give more agency to top lane, and that the laning phase will be super swingy and snowbally, but that they will struggle to have impact on the rest of the game.
: The power from it is mainly coming from the amount of stability and wave control with relatively little cost he gets from a reset on the W. Most other champs need to pay in both mana and cooldowns when they use their spells to help control a wave or manipulate how it is pushing, whereas Fizz has a lot more flexibility. Him using his W active to last hit doesn't come at any real cost, which means his uptime on "able to trade effectively" is pretty high (all other factors equal). Add his passive, which also lets him navigate around/trade within minion waves with less penalty than other champs.
Doesn't every AD assassin have this exact trade-off too, though? I understand what you're saying, but Zed for example doesn't have such harsh downtime and can do all of the above better than Fizz (no mana, low CDs except on W, can easily last hit random minions with his passive at no cost or CD). I agree with the above poster that Q and E should gate Fizz harder than W does. Lategame maybe that isn't the case, since they have low-ish CDs at 40% CDR, and W being the gate at that point makes more sense, but Fizz relying on two separate 18 second CDs in early laning seems excessively prohibitive, to me.
: Hey, I'm gonna copy/paste this from the Reddit thread: The CD is actually deceptively short. The 6s duration is I believe longer that it's lasted in the past and because the cooldown currently starts on cast, it scales extremely well with cdr. At max rank and 40% cdr it'll only have an effective cooldown of 2.4s, so it actually has 71% uptime, and even more if you account for the time it takes between hitting W and getting the initial hit off. Coincidentally if the cooldown started after the buff ended and lost 6s base cooldown to compensate, the downtime would actually be twice as long at max cdr at 4.8s. ___ The CD is going to probably change to after the buff ends instead of when it starts, which will benefit low cdr and nerf high cdr depending on the new numbers. To prevent the cd change from being a nerf the cooldown will have to be reduced by more than 6s. Something like a flat 7s cd reduction would buff early and nerf late game, or a change like 6s off rank one scaling to 8s off max rank would keep the cd close to the same at all times.
That's why I don't mind it late game, but early game (rank 1 W, 0% CDR) it's 33% uptime which kind of sucks. That's what I would like to see changed.
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
I like this approach a lot better than the last one. Will give it a try tonight and give feedback. One thing I notice immediately is that the cooldown on W is extremely high now. I understand the reason (not allowing 100% uptime at high CDR), but it seems to me that it maybe shouldn't have an 18 second CD at level 1. It gates his trading in lane by a lot and if you mess up a CS with W, you're now a sitting duck for 18 seconds instead of 10 like on live. 14 flat CD seems like it could be a happy medium. The other thing I want to bring up is the small shark. I understand the reasoning for its existence, by right now I think it is too punishing and using it is literally never the direct choice unless you are against Yasuo (otherwise it is always better to back off and throw the shark later). Any chance of looking at flattening the ult damage a little bit across the 3 sizes?
: Hey all, I want to thank you for all the feedback being posted. On these Boards, Reddit, Youtube, Twitter - we've been listening to your thoughts on these Fizz changes. Our initial goal with the new W was to make a lightweight change and see if Fizz players enjoyed a different input for W. But from what we've heard from the majority of Fizz players, you enjoy the current live W over the experimental changes. So we're going to be pulling these changes out from PBE. If there is a clear opportunity for the right Fizz changes in the future, we're open to it, but we don't want to force changes to live that Fizz players don't want. Thank you again for your input. {{champion:105}}
What is the outlook on getting a more comprehensive look at Fizz? Or even a consideration of partial revert? I'm glad these changes didn't go through because I don't think they improved much, but Fizz is still in Rengar/Leblanc territory after the assassin reworks and a lot of his dedicated player base isn't really happy with his current state at all, despite him being fairly strong.
: Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion. Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc.
I feel it's possible to believe that changes can be a net negative regardless of whether they make the champion weak or strong. For Anivia as an example, I was never an Anivia main, but I did dabble in her from time to time. I will never play her current incarnation because it honestly just isn't as satisfying as the old one. Too slow, too clunky, not reliable enough, and too much focus on control to the detriment of burst. To me it doesn't matter if she's more effective if her gameplay fantasy is changed for the worse. That's of course a non-main's perspective, but I think most mains will feel the same way even if they don't necessarily articulate it.
Lore2 (NA)
: Not trying to be rude or anything, but what direction did the fizz rework take him? As someone who doesn't play fizz and occasionally plays against him, it feels like hes always had the same playstyle.
It's the same as Leblanc. Wait X number of seconds before you're allowed to deal damage. Unlike Leblanc, Fizz can "cheat" it somewhat by either throwing ult first to pre-charge the timer, or just using E to stall for time. But both of those have the side effect of making him extremely linear from the player's perspective. Whereas before you weren't constrained and could use more varied combos. It was just more fun to play and as you say, the opposing player probably doesn't notice any difference so it's not like it helped in that department.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll likely talk about Fizz at least after mid-season. The W I could see us adjusting potentially. The R power scaling by distance by contrast I think has done good things though (optimal play not being to just use your skillshot point blank as a non dodgeable CC).
My only real gripe with R is how heavily it punishes you for taking fights in melee range, even when it's the right decision (and all 3 of your other abilities are only used in melee). Low damage, low CC, and you don't get to pre-charge your mark before engaging. I guess if the mark goes away it won't be quite as bad, but if the mark is here to stay I'd at least like to maybe not have the damage drop off as dramatically. Feels bad when somebody jumps on you and you can't fight them at anywhere near full strength when everything else is melee. That said, super glad to hear it's on the radar. Thanks!
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 25
Hi Meddler, Now that the work on Rengar and Leblanc is more or less complete, is there any chance of Fizz's rework being revisited? There's still a lot of dissatisfaction among Fizz players about the direction his rework took him, and some of the design principles it embodies are very similar to the ones that prompted Leblanc's revert. Would love to hear your thoughts.
: I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally, as the manaflow band changes we shipped recently had a much more noticeable effect on how the laning phase played out IMO. I haven't experienced any feelings that the class feels dramatically weaker in our playtests. I believe that players learning to opt OUT of interaction with their opponents has made the game a lot less fun, and every time I see an Inspiration/Resolve TF with Minion Dematerializer, I get a little sad. I do think there will be followup balance necessary, however, as opting out of interaction is how you survive the laning phase against a lot of assassins (Fizz/Zed/LeBlanc) and believe that trying to get towards a state where it is a fallback strategy as opposed to the optimized strategy in most matchups is desirable for making mid lane more fun over the long term.
I think it's just a feeling of mages being singled out while they are fairly middle of the pack in terms of strength amongst the roles, even in competitive (ADCs and tanks are definitely seem to have more presence, for example). The manaflow band nerf affected everyone equally, even if mages built it most frequently, and at least was bundled with a compensatory change that didn't make it too painful. This just feels like rubbing salt in the wound. I think also that it seems mostly focused towards late game, when there are answers to high waveclear (baron/banner/etc), while the problem it's attempting to solve is an early-mid game one.
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.9
How do the mana changes on the PBE affect mages, in your opinion? I understand the problem they're trying to solve (mindless, cheap waveclear), but it seems like as a whole it will just be a blanket nerf to mages without any real compensation in a meta where I don't feel they particularly shine (to me they feel fairly average). Do you have any concerns that they will be locked into Archangel's/Presence of Mind to function?
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.6
Who do you guys see as good users of Conqueror? I will say I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty underwhelming at a glance since it is very conditional (4 seconds in combat, only good on melee, and need high damage from auto attacks), and I can only think of a handful of champions that might like to take it. Is this supposed to just be a really niche rune, or am I significantly underestimating the value of the true damage?
Meddler (NA)
: Looking for topics for Friday's post
Would love to hear about how you feel about whether risk/reward profiles are appropriate in the current landscape of League (e.g. Whether it's worth picking something like a bruiser or assassin that doesn't scale as hard, versus a tank or ADC or high scaling Mage).
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: AP Itemization on PBE (8.4)
Maybe I'm missing something, but for a standard AP build, aren't you going to lose AP in the end? Mana items -> -20 AP from current Morello Void Staff -> -10 AP Deathcap -> +5% AP (= probably +20-25 in normal builds). If you build Rylai's you break even. Otherwise you straight up lose out. Isn't this overall a net loss for nearly everyone?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 24
What do you think about top lane's relationship to bot lane as a factor in how it's currently feeling/performing? Personally my most frustrating games as a top laner aren't the ones where I get a bad lane matchup, or where I get camped by the jungler in the long lane or where I feel my champion choice worked against me. Instead it's the games where I do decently or even very well, but don't have the tools to influence bot lane, and then when my duo falls behind, I'm rendered weak just by virtue of being out scaled by the enemy duo. Sometimes Teleport is helpful here, but it's difficult to use correctly and has a long cooldown, so opportunities to influence bot lane with teleport don't always present themselves. And without TP, you're probably at least losing your turret when trying to make a play bottom which causes the 1v1 in your lane to become unwinnable. Would love to hear your thoughts.
: I mean, did you really have more than one combo on Fizz even before the rework? I can understand the rework is still not fun in absolute, and I feel for ya, but how is it comparatively *less* fun than before? EDIT: oups, didn't notice it was the old thread from 2 months ago. Sorry for necroposting ^^' But still curious about the question.
Before the rework, there were choices around how you weaved auto attacks into your combo. To optimize your damage, you had to stick to your target, often dodge a crucial ability with E, and continue attacking. The rework took that out of the equation and just made you do all your damage in 1 auto, but you have to wait for it to charge. So instead of having this push-pull where you try to estimate your opponent's skill timings, how many autos you need to finish them off, etc., now you just throw your ult at them and vomit on your keyboard 2 seconds later. There's no finesse anymore, and the Fizz's skillcap has been significantly diminished. It also means that he can only be playable if his raw damage is outrageously high, which makes him harder to balance than before.
Fearless (NA)
: We can, but I don't think we should. We had iterations of nullifying orb that were much more inclusive, and they very quickly became mandatory. This left us with the options of either restricting the Rune to be more situational or remove it. I believe it's important for a number of mages to have a way to plan for a lane where the range disparity against other mages is a defining element of the early game, so I would prefer we don't remove the option outright. When we tested weaker general versions of the rune, it stopped being understandable. Shields that pop in reaction to damage tend to get crushed by the incoming damage, and this is especially true at small values. That being said, I know physical assassins are a constant source of consternation on these boards, and we have seen that this is even more pronounced since 7.22 dropped. We always expect balance to be a bit rocky after changes this large, and we're definitely knee deep in the chaotic, unoptimized state right now. You're likely to see some small nudges to individual runes or champions for the next patch or two as we let some of the dust settle. If I could make one small suggestion, there are a number of us watching the boards right now, looking to talk about the state of the game and Runes in general. This can be really hard on gameplay boards because of the exceptionally negative hyperbole that tends to be so prevalent. It doesn't help that dissenting opinions are also frequently downvoted into oblivion (as there are a few examples even in this thread). I personally love to talk to players and do so on a lot of different platforms, but boards is sadly one of the most draining. I figured it might be worth pointing out that we'd really love to talk on here a lot more about Runes, if folks are open to having actual discussions.
> I believe it's important for a number of mages to have a way to plan for a lane where the range disparity against other mages is a defining element of the early game, so I would prefer we don't remove the option outright. The thing is, that I don't believe that anybody is picking Nullifying Orb for these cases. If anything, I think it's more common to see Manaflow Band in that case so you can just outshove. Where people do pick Nullifying Orb tends to be in matchups where you're at risk of being all-in'd, i.e. against AP assassins or burst mages. This cuts down on their power considerably since they tend to rely on snowballing to hit their one-shot benchmarks later in the game, while long range mages in mid don't really care as much if they get denied a kill or two in laning phase. So, if the intention is to have a rune to stymie burst champions from snowballing, that's fine, but I don't see any reason it shouldn't apply equally to AD and AP. If anything, I would argue it should apply solely to AD damage since they tend to have the tools to finish off champions who don't die in one rotation (auto-attacks), while AP burst champs don't tend to have that sort of fallback pattern. If a hypothetical physical version of Nullifying Orb gives you enough HP to survive a Zed rotation, he can risk himself somewhat to throw in an extra auto-attack or two. In contrast, if Nullifying Orb gives you enough HP to survive a Fizz rotation, you probably just walk away and recall. If the intention is really to introduce parity between casters of differing ranges, then I would say that Nullifying Orb does a poor job of it.
: Well, there's a variety of reasons. It's not like all champions can (or should) have the same amount of waveclear, and obviously it's mostly dependent upon what the rest of the kit is, their strengths, weaknesses, etc. In Galio's case, he's a melee without a reliable trading pattern against ranged champions who has very punishable cooldowns. Without some amount of ranged waveclear he'd just get shut out of the game at any point where he fell behind, plus having high damage on the persistent part of the Q means he can have less poke (since champions can just walk away from the Q tornado) and more all-in pressure since he can use his cc to keep people inside the tornado. Galio is also making a conscious choice when he uses Q to clear backline - without it, he has no ranged abilities and has to commit his body to cs the melees and any ranged creeps he didn't kill, or to fight his lane opponent. It's also worth noting that Galio is not really a tank. On live (before this patch drops), he's played most effectively as full tank, but after this patch he should be more akin to an AP bruiser, though on the tankier side of those.
Out of curiosity, doesn't everything you just said about Galio apply to Fizz as well? Yet he doesn't have any ranged waveclear at all.
Meddler (NA)
: It's not something we're considering no.
Are there any changes being considered for Fizz in future? I'm a mod of the fizzmains subreddit, and anecdotally there seems to be agreement that the rework removed a lot of skill expression and high moments from Fizz, and failed to replace it with anything meaningful (other than a bigger ult hitbox). I think most people would be really glad to at least see that acknowledged. The reason the revert question comes up so often is because it's an easy answer to those problems.
: General Philosophy on Balance Hotfixing
Can I just ask how you determine balance/winrate targets for certain champions? Because some aspects of this post kind of confused me. For example: > Getting back to Janna, we knew that Wednesday’s changes were getting back on the right track based on the data represented above. At this point, with her performance back in line with 7.18 levels (which was also certainly on the high side), we could have left followup until the 7.20 patch given that, in 7.18, that same WR wasn’t something we were considering hotfixing Janna for. If the champions I played had a 56.4% winrate, they would be nerfed within the hour that the patch went live. I'm not exaggerating. I understand that there are more factors to balancing a champion than win rate, but 56%+ is such an egregious outlier that it seems totally bizarre to me that you guys would even consider leaving her in that state, even in the previous 6 patches where she had that winrate. Ultimately, I suppose you didn't choose to do that, so maybe I'm overreacting, but it's kind of frustrating to hear that.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 22
Hi Meddler, I posted this last week, so sorry for the repost, but it generated some good discussion and I'd still love to hear your thoughts about it. If I'm just being a nuisance please let me know and I'll stop, but here goes again: In the tester Q&A this patch, one of the play testers mentioned that he thought some of the assassin reworks made them significantly less fun to play (he was talking about Fizz specifically, but was being somewhat general), and that he hoped they could be revisited. Is there any hope of a pass at injecting better skill expression and flexibility into some of those assassins that got reworked as part of the update? It sucks when your favorite champion had a bunch of problems introduced to their kit by a rework, but isn't on anybody's radar because they have a 50% win rate and aren't played in competitive.
: Well, LB got a bigger update and what she got is... waveclear and a delay. Trust me, and be happy that he wasn't one of the big reworks. He could end up being a melee waveclear mage.
At least in Leblanc's case (and Rengar's), Riot has admitted they made a mistake and committed to revisiting her. The turnaround on that is longer than I think is fair, but at least we know it's coming. For Fizz, the last thing we heard from a Rioter about him until that offhand comment from the play tester, was this post from 7 months ago: where they told the mains of the champion that they didn't like the rework because they were playing it wrong. That's extremely discouraging, to put it lightly.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 15
Hi Meddler, In the tester Q&A this patch, one of the play testers mentioned that he thought some of the assassin reworks made them significantly less fun to play (he was talking about Fizz specifically, but was being somewhat general), and that he hoped they could be revisited. Is there any hope of a pass at injecting better skill expression and flexibility into some of those assassins that got reworked as part of the update? It sucks when your favorite champion had a bunch of problems introduced to their kit by a rework, but isn't on anybody's radar because they have a 50% win rate and aren't played in competitive.
: I think one of the main things I learned after working on Fizz is the importance of having several different combos you can do on assassins. If he ever comes up again I will probably stress this as a big point. Him feeling very binary makes him easier to play against however, it means he does not feel very smart or tricky which takes away from the fantasy. I would love to work with a designer on him again, but currently I doubt we will take anything major up soon.
Maybe this is a silly or even presumptuous question, but is there anything that mains of a champ like Fizz can do to get their voices heard in terms of advocating for changes? I think you've caught on to a reason a lot of Fizz mains were deeply unsatisfied with the rework, even almost 1 year out, but it's really disappointing to hear that there's no plans to fix the problems it caused. I know there are higher priorities to work on, especially when leading up to worlds, but it sucks when the champ you play is in a bad state and in the "will never revisit" bin just because they have a 50% winrate and aren't a problem child at the moment.
: We're hoping to do a pass on AP itemization sometime in the (hopefully near) future. If the issue with them is build diversity, some suggestions for new/modified items could be useful, if for no other reason than to get some ideas flowing. If those suggestions also included why they'd be good additions to the game, or what problem they address, that would also be very useful.
I'd love to see an AP item dedicated to countering shields somehow. Perhaps an active item with a medium-long CD that breaks shields applied to a target? Or one that allows you to ignore some percentage of shielding or reduces the effectiveness of applied shields (like Grievous Wounds). To me it feels that AP champs, especially ones with longer cooldowns or who are balanced around burst damage, really struggle against shield spam, and there isn't any good way to mitigate that as things stand since the cooldowns of Shields tend to be too low to work around unless your CDs are even lower. I'd also love to see some dedicated itemization for AP assassins that maybe fulfill some similar niches to the ones that AD assassins have -- with out of combat MS or vision denial mechanics. I realize that AD and AP assassins are not supposed to be exactly the same, but it feels like aside from Hourglass that AP assassins are really lacking in itemization to fulfill their role (most other items are just incidentally good on them, it feels like).
: I feel you here, but a big problem is that nowadays AP vs AD is more about damage type and less about play pattern, and runes focus on play pattern. For example, meteor is a poke rune and Hunt of the Bloodmoon is roaming rune, neither is intended as an AD or AP rune -- there are plenty of both AP and AD champions that poke (Jayce, Varus, Jhin vs Ziggs, Xerath, Lux) and the same for roaming (Talon, Hecarim, Quinn vs Kassadin, Aurelion Sol, Twisted Fate). So we're trying to make the runes work for both AD/AP champs, as long as they fit their pattern. This is why you see runes that scale with both AP and AD. Is there a particular type of pattern or style that you associate with AP users, or casters, that we haven't provided for yet?
To clarify based on what I think the previous poster is saying (and I agree with him): in the current system, AP damage dealers basically have 3 options: Thunderlords, DFT, and Stormraiders. AD damage dealers have 5 options: Thunderlords, DFT, Stormraiders, Fervor, and Warlord's. The runes that have been revealed so far seem to be fairly generalist, which is great, but under the current system there are basically runes usable by everybody, and runes usable by AD only, which basically means that AP damage dealers will always have less options. Just as an example, if something Fervor or Warlord's-esque were to appear in the new system, I'd really like to have them work for both classes of champions (e.g. a version of Fervor that stacks AP with multiple spell casts, or a version of Warlord's that scales off of AP as well as AD).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 14
What's the direction looking like for Ziggs and Xerath? I know they aren't really played in competitive, but their stats are quite good in solo queue and anecdotally they feel reasonably strong at what they do (especially Ziggs). Any worry they might be made too effective in pub games if they're buffed?
: I think they mean on-hit effects that trigger with auto-attacks. Unless you are also talking about on-hit builds that use AP such as Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End.
Yes, of course that's what they mean. I'm talking about how it will affect champs like Teemo, Kayle, and Kog'Maw who deal on-hit magic damage. Adaptive Helm is already extremely strong against them (less so against Kog), and now flatly reducing their damage by 10% against anyone who builds Tabi is another massive nerf that they probably don't need. I don't see why Tabi shouldn't work like Adaptive Helm does for magic damage and only reduce on-hit physical damage.
Meddler (NA)
: Yep, tank Fizz has issues too, working on him.
How do you anticipate that the Fizz nerfs will affect AP Fizz? It seems like he's in an average-ish spot right now and from numbers crunching, the changes on the PBE are a pretty significant nerf to him. Can we expect any follow-up work if AP Fizz ends up being hit too hard?
Meddler (NA)
: All on hits is the intent, not sure if it's hooked up to affect everything yet though. Depending on just how powerful that then proves to be might need to make other adjustments to compensate too.
Won't this absolutely dumpster AP on-hit based champs? Adaptive Helm + Tabis would basically reduce their damage output by 25% without much of a downside.
: ARAM Changes for 7.10
> Melee Champions It’s a little inelegant but we’re looking at increasing early survivability of Melee champions with a flat MR boost (currently looking at +10). It’s unsurprising that Melee Champion struggle early in ARAM and they tend to get beaten up by primarily magic damage casters who on a map/mode with access to a lot more spellcasts in a narrow corridor tend to do well. This should soften up some of that early harass, with the buff being less meaniningful later as it becomes less needed later in the game. I don't have much of an opinion on the other changes, but please don't do this. One of the core tenets of ARAM for me is that the mechanics are the same as SR even if a few of the rules are different. Mana regen being increased is one thing, because otherwise it's a slog, but adding straight up combat stats to champions is too far. And, why only MR? Ranged AD champions are just as strong against melees.
Vexilus (NA)
: disproportionate effectiveness is the case with a lot of items though, such as how zhonyas is a much more useful item for champs like swain, fizz, ekko than it is for Xerath because if Xerath is in a position to need zhonays then he's probably already dead. I do agree though that mages need some more defensive items. It's apparent enough when you see people build QSS which is meant for and builds into an AD item.
I don't mean disproportionate effectiveness for the purchaser -- some items will certainly be more attractive on some champions than others. I that it's disproportionately effective _against_ certain champions. This is true for Zhonya's too, but Zhonya's has been tuned so that it's only really super duper effective against Zed now, and is just situationally good against most other stuff. It also had its stats nerfed really heavily, so that rushing it immediately will set you back quite a bit. That's definitely not the case for this iteration of Banshee's Veil.
: > Any consideration to providing mages an actual anti-AD focused item to reduce the feeling of unfairness would be cool. Not sure it's fair to say Zhonya's isn't "an actual anti-AD focused item" (seems like a very subjective call, which is fair in its own way). If it's more about Seeker's being weak or unappealing (no unique noticeable effect other than stats) or not having stackable options (Maw+Mercurial, for example), that seems like a reasonable point of view. I was operating under the assumption that the two groups would need only viable option to fight the opposing damage type, as long as it was clearly an effective one worth the purchase. For example, I thought that Banshee's being an AP focused anti-magic option would suffice, since it would clearly be useful in its effect, without needing to stack a bunch of additional MR on top of it. Similarly, a balanced version of this GA should be the only AD/Armor item needed, if it is clearly useful for its intended purposes. My thought was that players would prefer this over feeling like they should have to stack a bunch of similar items to get the output they wanted, but that could be a false assumption. Thanks for the feedback. I'll be thinking about it.
> I was operating under the assumption that the two groups would need only viable option to fight the opposing damage type, as long as it was clearly an effective one worth the purchase. I think this would be nice in the ideal case. But what can end up happening is that because AD champions have several options, they can choose to stack Maw, Edge of Night and QSS and get like 100 MR with 3 great anti-mage passives. There's no option for a Mage to do the same against a heavy AD comp. The other issue with Banshee's Veil as I see it is that it's disproportionately effective against some champions. Against someone like Xerath, it's basically useless because it will be stripped off instantly. Against someone like Fizz, it completely nullifies any chance of an all-in and probably forces a Hextech item buy just to be able to pop the shield. That's a much bigger disparity than Zhonya's or GA or any of those anti-AP AD items have.
: Midseason Durability - Goals and Direction
Hi RiotRepertoir, Can you comment on how you think these changes will affect AP champions? After this post and reading the changes on the PBE, It seems like in almost all instances AP champs are going to take a big hit here: - Abyssal being swapped with Banshee's is kind of an overall nerf, I think, since it will mean that certain kinds of champions will not be able to take all-ins vs. Abyssal rushers... especially champions who don't have a lot of poke and need to take an all-in off a single spell. Fizz, Lissandra, Morgana come to mind. (I know Morg isn't played much mid anymore, but...). It's also yet another damage nerf, after AP has been stripped off of a lot of items in the past year or so. - Guardian Angel gives AD, so it's no longer buildable either. It no longer gives MR which is nice, but it feels like ADs already have a big advantage in "utility itemization" when they have QSS, Maw, Edge of Night, and now GA in their pocket. APs are left with only Zhonya's which, while powerful, is still only situationally useful on a lot of champions, and Banshee's Veil which counters other AP champions harder than it does most ADs, as I mentioned above. - MR/lvl being ubiquitous is a clear nerf. AP was reduced across the board to compensate for removing Aegis, but this is just a swing back in the other direction, and it doesn't look like compensation is forthcoming. - Adaptive Helm is obvious targeted towards certain kinds of AP champions that are very spammy, and there's only a few of those. But I feel APs have been hefted up by MR itemization having been "meh" for a while, and changing that will disrupt a delicate balance. I'm not sure any one of those changes is massive enough to be a problem on their own, but bundled together I have a feeling that non-utility AP champions will be in a very poor spot after this patch. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Statikk (NA)
: We're looking to do even less. We're going to do 3 big updates. We're currently in the process of exploring smaller scale changes for other Tanks, but 1 mistake we've felt about past updates is that we forced out too many small scale updates that didn't hit the mark. Look for us to reduce the amount of mini-updates we do as well.
Are there any plans to go back and revisit some of those small updates that didn't hit the mark? Or is it just going to be a case of "sorry we messed up your favorite champion"?
: I actually feel the opposite. To me games have felt tankier and less bursty from when I started in season 3. I miss the days of DFG katarina or LB one shotting people. So personally I'm not feeling this damage creep the same way you are explaining it. **Edit:** Want to throw in that I am the assassin player on the team. My views here are not all of my teammates, I would actually be surprised if they did not disagree with me. They are just my thoughts as a player of the game.
I thought I was crazy, but I have the same feeling and I've been playing since season 1. It's way harder to die than it ever was in the first 3 seasons, at least. If anything, it feels that damage is more normalized -- classes that traditionally dealt less damage are doing more, and classes that dealt more damage are doing less. Is that just in my head or do you guys see the same thing?
: The live gameplay team is monitoring assassins still, especially the AD ones due to negative feedback about Lethality.
Any thoughts on Fizz? I understand that Lethality is being looked at first, but it seems there's a lot of dissatisfaction with Fizz's update.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: I actually think it's possible to have both without the tug of war, we just need to define our champion sets well. I think a reasonable strategy is - "OK here are all the champions that exhibit tendencies to be viable in competitive play." (including champions that aren't balanced for competitive yet). "Here are all the champions that cannot be viable in competitive" and we slowly adjust then to move from set 2 (this set) to set 1. This likely involves injection of skill expression. Now we balance both sets of champions around normal play (so normal play is fair), then inject and remove purely competitive power to balance set 1 for competitive play. For example, we could say kindred is balanced for normal play, so let's add some purely competitive power. The other way is to slowly move all champions from set 1 to set 2. (ie. The idea that if Noone is viable in competitive, then everyone is viable.)
As somebody who only follows the competitive scene in passing ... there's nothing worse for someone like me than their champion being picked up in competitive play. It means that they get balanced around a style of game I will never encounter and rarely watch, and so their balance state no longer reflects the reality of the game that I experience. Obviously there's always going to be some discrepancy as balance looks different at different skill levels, but personally I would much rather take Option 3, which is ignore the considerations of competitive play when balancing and let the competitive meta evolve (or stagnate) organically from changes made for the "average" player who will never play at a tournament level.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Yeah, if they are valuable, I can do one for Ashe. Gonna head out for dinner now though, so it'll be later. I did the Ashe changes too (if you're talking about the 6.20 ones)
Seconding the request for a Fizz thread. There's been like no communication from anybody about the rework and it seems most Fizz players are pretty unhappy with how it's shaken out. Would love to see some thoughts, at least.
Meddler (NA)
: Kennen's ult hits 6 times, not 3. Using your example of 10 and 5 damage that means you'd want to compare: * 10, 7.5, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0 = 37.5 And * 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.5 = 37.5 So same damage, but back loaded instead of front loaded. That is a nerf still though certainly (burstier damage is more powerful), but not as large a one as you'd identified. We're testing this change because we don't believe Kennen should be as bursty as he is at present, given the other tools he brings.
Question: was Kennen really performing well enough to justify such a large nerf? I would have thought Protobelt, Hourglass, and Abyssal all being nerfed would have been sufficient. I rarely see Kennen anymore and when I do, he's not exactly dominating.
: Lux abilities are difficult to see in general, projectiles are very difficult to distinguish
Yea, they're extremely difficult to see, especially on some forms. Perhaps even worse is that the audio cues have all been removed (no sound when casting Q, compare to the regular skins which have a very distinctive sound when you cast it), which makes it even harder to parse what's happening. I think I've been hit by more Lux bindings in the past 2 days than I have in the 2 months prior to that. I've actually started banning Lux because it's so frustrating. Would really love to see some adjustments to make the visuals actually visible.
: Not sure Diana ever gets "amazing" durability. Her shield isn't that good.
Yea, "amazing" is overstating it, my apologies. But relatively speaking, her shield and base stats give her significantly more concrete durability than any of the dedicated assassins.
: What people don't understand about Assassins with longer burst vs Fighters
The problem is that many fighters can be built as assassins and have few of the weaknesses you describe. If I can play Jarvan IV, build pure damage and kill an ADC in .5 seconds, what's Zed got over him? If I can play Diana and have amazing durability on top of instant damage and initiation potential, where does that leave Fizz? Those champions perform better when ahead because they kill you instantly with more tankiness, and better from behind because they still have the option to build for durability because they aren't at the mercy of their ratios. Maybe they aren't fulfilling the assassin role while behind, but low econ champs are almost always better off being tanks than trying to be damage dealers. And, I've only crunched the numbers on Fizz personally but he definitely did not gain the damage to kill someone while behind. I have trouble seeing how that could be true for some others as well (e.g. Akali). But maybe that's the case for the big 4.
Shrieve (NA)
: Hey Landorin. Your questions are totally understandable with or without access to PBE so no worries there. Let me start off by saying things are not finalized; with PBE we often start with a changelist that tested well during internal playtests and iterate from there. We're keeping a close eye on Fizz's performance in PBE games and feedback from the boards. We've heard concerns over the strain of W on Fizz's mana pool and changes to his damage output. Here's a breakdown covering where we're moving the needle next on the PBE: * **W - Seastone Trident** * ** Mana Refund**: _50% -> 100%_ * _Note: mana is refunded regardless by any Active hit, charged or uncharged (not a new change)_ * **AP Ratios**: * Passive (DoT): _.3 -> .33_ * Uncharged Active Hit:_ .3 -> .33_ * Charged Active Hit: _.9 -> 1.0_ * **E - Playful/Trickster** * ** Mana Cost**: _90/100/110/120/130 -> 90/95/100/105/110_ * **R - Chum the Waters** * **Seastone Interaction**: W Passive is applied to all enemies hit by the shark * _Note: this is in addition to being applied on initial application of the fish_ * **Fish Orbit**: made long range R more reliable by increasing fish attachment radius * **Base Damage**: * **Small Shark**: _140/290/440 -> 150/300/450_ * **Medium Shark**: _240/390/540 -> 250/400/550_ * **Big Shark**: _340/490/640 -> 350/500/650_ * **AP Ratios**: * **Small Shark**: _.5 -> .6_ * **Medium Shark**: _.75 -> .9_ * **Big Shark**: _1.0 -> 1.2_ On to your initial questions about the laning phase... I do agree that output-wise the new W is functions similar to live W when last hitting minions. However one aspect that's not apparent from the new W's tooltip is that it now also resets your auto-attack timer. Between the auto-attack reset and higher bonus magic damage at all ranks (charged or uncharged) it's pretty effective at last hitting minions. Spread your W Passive with a couple of auto-attacks or Q's dash, let the DoT tick a couple of times, auto-attack, W hit, rinse-repeat. If you're being pressured under tower forgo the DoT and charged damage and go for some simple auto, reset with W attacks. The average CS and hence gold has gone up quite substantially from our tests. Updates like what Fizz is going through are quite iterative, and PBE is just another step in that process. Depending on how things shake out over the next few weeks we have quite a few possibilities in mind for our little Trickster. Let me know if you have any other questions!
Thank you for the response! I suppose I would have to try it to be sure, but my gut reaction is that Fizz is still the only midlaner with no ability to farm from range, and so he still has the same weaknesses against experienced players who both realize this and have the finesse required to control creep waves well. I think that's fine (obviously, or I wouldn't play the champion), but historically it was made up for by his high kill pressure which seems like it's being sacrificed. Since Q's base damage is so poor and you're trying to disincentivize using W->Q, do you have any plans to increase Q's base damage? What about something like allowing W cooldown to reset when used with Q? Also, to me it seems unintuitive that the ultimate is significantly weaker at short range. Is there any worry that it leads to scenarios where the best option against Fizz (a melee-only assassin) is to run into melee range before he can ult you? I see the idea behind the size changing with distance, but am concerned about the damage falling off in close quarters.
: > [{quoted}](name=Landorin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=zVy7EKcI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-19T20:56:43.472+0000) > > Only semi-related and I apologize for that, but are there any plans to cross-post some of the other preseason changes to the Dev Corner for a wider discussion? I would really like to give feedback since my main is getting reworked, but I don't have a PBE account and it seems like the only way to reach you guys is just to post in Gameplay or something and hope somebody notices it. If not I understand. Thanks! Yeah, agreed - was just talking about how these posts are hard to find/hard to comment otherwise. Want to try to get PBE feedback first from player who have the capability of testing the changes out, but over time we're talking about moving the threads over so everyone can contribute. Would still post on Gameplay since we're going through Boards regularly, but if you reply with your thread post link, I can forward it to the roster team just in case.
Appreciate it! My thread link is But, I'm sure I'm not the only one in the same boat and a lot of other players would love to have their voice heard. Glad to hear there's some discussion on that front. Personally I'd love to test as well to give better feedback, but there's no accounting for the luck of the draw (or however players are selected for PBE).
: Plant Spawn Full System Design (PBE)
Only semi-related and I apologize for that, but are there any plans to cross-post some of the other preseason changes to the Dev Corner for a wider discussion? I would really like to give feedback since my main is getting reworked, but I don't have a PBE account and it seems like the only way to reach you guys is just to post in Gameplay or something and hope somebody notices it. If not I understand. Thanks!
Jbels (NA)
: The other change to his W is that when he kills a unit with the auto after activating it, it refunds half the cost of the spell and heavily reduces it's cooldown. This will be invaluable for farming under tower. I think that's what they meant
This is basically just a replacement for the current W's function, though. Right now you activate W under tower and can last hit every minion without preparation. No real change from what I can see.
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