Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T13:06:20.156+0000) > > i've mained Lucian since his release, too, dude. i really enjoyed him when he had 550 auto range, 2 second W move-speed buff with an AD ratio, an E that removes slows, and a weak as shit ult that reset your E cooldowns. Oh so you enjoyed Playing Lucian when he was the most broken generalist ADC in game. I did to but he had 0 weaknesses > i got all the way to plat 1 a long time ago with Lucian, and i tried really, really hard to get to diamond, but not with Lucian...i just ended up using AD Malzahar to finish my diamond promos. again, you don't really elaborate much, you just keep pointing to EU master/challengers, but like i'll say for the last time, this doesn't prove Lucian is good. if you still can't understand this, i don't know what else to say. these Lucian mains could main Jihn or any other carry with higher range and good mobility, and they might be twice as successful, who knows? if anything, it proves he's usable. i'll concede that point. my original claim was that he's dogshit. i guess he's not total shit. but you're definitely not selling me on why he's good... Everyone could main Kaisa and climb hard, specially the funnel kaisa strats, there are few carries which are higher tier then Lucian but there are even more carries which are lower tier then Lucian so dont really expect buffs If Quinn, Draven, Ezreal and Kaisa get nerfed Lucian is next > and you keep looking at EUW stats, but sorry, that's not the most relevant server. KR still is the most competitive solo-que environment, and they're not bullshitting you when they say if you're diamond in any other region, you'll be gold in KR. just the sheer number of players in master tier and above overwhelmingly larger than any other region...seriously...because master+ players in other regions smurf in KR all the fucking time. This is Straight up false... Euw is the most compettetive server here are the reasons 1. Biggest playerbase (Korea is as big tho) 2. **No retarded internet caffes** (in korea you ll have people opening because they want to play 2 game in an hour) 3. Less toxicity. Korea is known for its toxicity, I guess algorithms are bad for koreans 4. Korean server is 99.9999% korean, you might have a NA player visit korea and play there but like 4 people or some shit do that 5. Euw has bunch of Eune smurfs and versa. There are many people who live in central Europe and can play on both servers at the same Ping This servers used to be combined in a Past I guarantee this is where the most jumping from one to another server is I really dont see a reason why would lets say a chinese jump to korean where everyone speaks korean. While in both Eune and Euw everyone speaks English In korea early game champions have better performance because everyone opens at minute 20 anyway due to internet caffee blshit I suggest checking Euw first then if you want more data check Eune/Korea > and i'm no fan of the KR server. i think it's full of assholes, and the "toxicity" level is through the roof. one thing to note is that kR is not known for popping new ideas. usually, the other servers find broken stuff, and it carries over to KR. but, as i said, nobody in KR considered even past-patch Lucian OP. they literally just considered him one of the only usable AD carries at all. you just saw fucking swain/vlad/yasuo and other assorted bullshit at bot lane. AD carries were just gone the previous patch, aside from the occasional Lucians. Yasuo ADC has been viable since his realease. I have been abusing it for the past 2 years in challenger see I am AHEAD OF META, he is even weaker compared to past with this IE and crit changes. Also yasuo was designed to be melee ADC. He belongs in botlane according to RIOT. If you wonna counter him try Xayah, Jhin Both Vlad and Swain got nerfed. This shits are pretty much ranged Juggernauts tho, I assume they are not really tier 0 after the nerfs > lastly, DPS what is closest to you is not always fine...i just do not understand why you keep speaking like you got your doctorate in Lucian Studies, and then proceed to say stuff like this... if your Alistar just headbutt-pulverized some enemies in a teamfight, and one of them is Syndra who's super fed, and you're the only DPS in the vicinity, then you have to dash forward, even if it means getting dry-humped by 2~3 enemies afterwards. and this is why i don't like Lucian. every other ADC has enough range for you to risk auto-attacking for a crit, or other ADCs like Ezreal can just use a skill that passes through enemies. Lucian has nothing, you HAVE to dash forward if you can't get a culling in immediately. and there is NO GUARANTEE YOU'RE DASHING OUT. you can dash in, and it'll work out sometimes. but sometimes, it won't, and you can't carry like that. Yes sometimes you are behind and have to hope for the best case scenario in order to win a fight, playing against twitch 1 year ago in a nutshell. But in generaly with Botrk Rush (which you must always rush) your dps against tankier targets is better then you might think Average dash ability exceeds 550 range, pretty much every ADC is in bruiser range when they are autoattacking the said bruiser apart from Ezreal Q Ezreal unlike lucian struggles EXTREMLY when the enemy has a tank + he is skillshot reliant and does less damage in teamfights then Lucian > > you just said it yourself: you're so team-dependent, that even if you came out of your lane dominant, you'll still lose if your team's moronic. But if you had Ashe, or Jihn, you can still make game-changing plays so your moronic team gets a grip. Lucian? I sometimes just regret having gotten all the kills. ADC class in general is extremly team-dependent. Just focus on objectives because thats how you indirectly correctly force fights against champions. PROACTIVITY is something an ADC on average lacks quite hard I main botlaners in this order. Yasuo>Irelia>Lucian Jhin has pathetic DPS and is heavly snowball reliant. He is one of those champions I consider irelevant despite what the stats say I start having tantrums whenever I have this trash champion on my team, if you take a look at statistics there is 1 chall Jhin and 2 master jhins at Euw, he is way worse then Lucian. Funnly enough a player who is chall with jhin has the highest performance on Lucian. So yeah you are lower elo if you swap to Jhin if anything. 1 chall Jhin at Korea. 1 master Jhin at Korea for extra Data. Pathetic for an early game champ in a focused early game meta server Lucian is built bruisery for a reason... Go Botrk > Reaver > bruiser items > bone plating, might help you not explode as often
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T14:39:20.385+0000) > > Oh so you enjoyed Playing Lucian when he was the most broken generalist ADC in game. I did to but he had 0 weaknesses > > Everyone could main Kaisa and climb hard, specially the funnel kaisa strats, there are few carries which are higher tier then Lucian but there are even more carries which are lower tier then Lucian so dont really expect buffs > > If Quinn, Draven, Ezreal and Kaisa get nerfed Lucian is next > > > This is Straight up false... > Euw is the most compettetive server here are the reasons > 1. Biggest playerbase (Korea is as big tho) > 2. **No retarded internet caffes** (in korea you ll have people opening because they want to play 2 game in an hour) > 3. Less toxicity. Korea is known for its toxicity, I guess algorithms are bad for koreans > 4. Korean server is 99.9999% korean, you might have a NA player visit korea and play there but like 4 people or some shit do that > 5. Euw has bunch of Eune smurfs and versa. There are many people who live in central Europe and can play on both servers at the same Ping > This servers used to be combined in a Past I guarantee this is where the most jumping from one to another server is > > I really dont see a reason why would lets say a chinese jump to korean where everyone speaks korean. While in both Eune and Euw everyone speaks English > > In korea early game champions have better performance because everyone opens at minute 20 anyway due to internet caffee blshit > I suggest checking Euw first then if you want more data check Eune/Korea > > Yasuo ADC has been viable since his realease. I have been abusing it for the past 2 years in challenger see I am AHEAD OF META, he is even weaker compared to past with this IE and crit changes. > > Also yasuo was designed to be melee ADC. He belongs in botlane according to RIOT. If you wonna counter him try Xayah, Jhin > Both Vlad and Swain got nerfed. This shits are pretty much ranged Juggernauts tho, I assume they are not really tier 0 after the nerfs > > Yes sometimes you are behind and have to hope for the best case scenario in order to win a fight, playing against twitch 1 year ago in a nutshell. But in generaly with Botrk Rush (which you must always rush) your dps against tankier targets is better then you might think > > > Average dash ability exceeds 550 range, pretty much every ADC is in bruiser range when they are autoattacking the said bruiser apart from Ezreal Q > Ezreal unlike lucian struggles EXTREMLY when the enemy has a tank + he is skillshot reliant and does less damage in teamfights then Lucian > > ADC class in general is extremly team-dependent. Just focus on objectives because thats how you indirectly correctly force fights against champions. PROACTIVITY is something an ADC on average lacks quite hard > > I main botlaners in this order. Yasuo>Irelia>Lucian > > > Jhin has pathetic DPS and is heavly snowball reliant. He is one of those champions I consider irelevant despite what the stats say > I start having tantrums whenever I have this trash champion on my team, if you take a look at statistics however I guess the new keystone and new crit item spiked his influence.. he went from bronze tier> to like master tier but even then Jhin never impressed me and I would just personaly never want him at my team. > > > Lucian is built bruisery for a reason... Go Botrk > Reaver > bruiser items > bone plating, might help you not explode as often dude, i LIVE in Korea and i AM Korean....people go to internet cafes and they stay there for 2 hours minimum, unless you're some kid who has a curfew or has to go to cram school. and you can just pay to extend your time. people open and afk and troll often, but it's rarely because of PC room time. they just do it because they're spiteful assholes who literally fight more with their own teammates than they fight enemy champions. yes, I know Ezreal has a bad time with tanks...this is why with Ez your ult passes through people, like i said.... and I already am building bruiser with Lucian, even with Ninja Tabis now and I sometimes even skip BotRK and go Youmu's instead. a little bit better, but not too much. the problem with this is that by the time you're late game, +400 HP can be relevant or irrelevant depending on the enemy comp. again, this doesn't solve the big issue that he can't make any plays, and he still has to jeopardize his own life. now, you said that ADCs are in bruiser range if they auto attack, anyway. yes, but the thing is you have other options besides just auto attacking with most other champions. Jinx is shit right now, but even with Jinx you have the option of going Fleet rune and Hextech Revolver, rocket-autoing the back line once or twice and then saving your traps for the enemy bruisers. you can even just flash and throw your ult at an angle so it hits a cluster of back line, though this is very situational. you have options, that's the point. Lucian doesn't. i understand you and other people have had success with Lucian. i have had success, too. but, you still can't carry consistently. i personally think the reason why Lucian is played on master/chall is because his laning is good and he's a bit more safer against bruisers and assassins than other ADCs, since we have Fizzes and Irelias and LeBlancs all over the place. but i don't see challengers making things happen with Lucian. even you know he can't do that, so what's the point? is that why we play ADCs? to just fill the slot and then pat ourselves for not dieing 10 times?
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-08-02T13:06:49.733+0000) > > the OP clearly says if you're below plat 1, you need not apply. > please fuck off somewhere else. Says a bronze scrub lul who says a top tier adc is bad lul. Last reply bye bye, gl besting your arrogance before shittalking nonesense you yourself are incapable of understanding. :3 {{sticker:katarina-love}}
> [{quoted}](name=EnergonVlada,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T13:08:38.907+0000) > > Says a bronze scrub lul. > Last reply bye bye gl climbing with such stubborness kiddow. http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=simplyebin i just told you my tier in the OP fuck off, you literal waste of space. at least just try coming up with a semblance of an argumen
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: Wooden Division Adventures: "Lucian Sux!!1!!1!11!" {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
> [{quoted}](name=EnergonVlada,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-02T11:44:04.143+0000) > > Wooden Division Adventures: "Lucian Sux!!1!!1!11!" > {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} the OP clearly says if you're below plat 1, you need not apply. please fuck off somewhere else.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T17:02:52.616+0000) > > listen, dude. First, stop it with your unfunny reddit/9gag memes, and stop your autistic caps lock. Hm i do follow 9gag, now sure how you could see that by my writing but thats impressive > your last statement makes it sound like you're reached chall before, but i don't understand why you're making bronze-tier arguments. Yes I reached it 4 times.. I peeked top 50 on Eune > -"winrate means nothing." okay, then why is it that challenger/master Lucians are only winning 50% of the time, you imbecile? if i get rid of the buzzword "winrate", now can you think critically? if Lucian is top-tier, then why are the people who are best at him barely winning half of their games? and if LeBlanc and Ryze had 45% winrates, maybe they weren't top-tier broken shit at that time? winrate isn't everything, but it's not nothing. can't you hold two thoughts at once? THERE ARE CHAMPION WHO DONT EVEN GET TO HAVE % AT FKING CHALLENGER/MASTER AND LUCIAN IS **AT 50% in the HIGHEST ELO** Lucian mains also have 57-58% winrate Both Le blanc and Ryze were op at 45% winrate multiple times. Lucian also isnt on easy side you should expect him to have less then 50% winrate on average to be balanced Average world had 45% winrate at LB and Ryze I didnt I was at 60% + same with ryze mains Go to lolalytics > put Euw server on (the most relevant server) > choose a champion > scroll down 0 **Vaynes **over dia2 0 **Sivirs** over dia1 6 Challenger **Lucians** 10 master Lucians 7 Challenger **Kaisas** around 10 master kaisas (she has high banrate to kaisa mains have 59% wr) 11 Challenger **Ezreals **(granted ezreal gets broken multiple times a season, might be some people just trying not to decay) around 10 masters 0 Challenger **Varus **players, 1 Master (prob outclassed by kaisa..) Yes Lucian is higher tier then Varus 0 challenger **Ashe players** 1 master granted she is better in 5vs5 ranked 3 challenger **Draven players** 8 masters Now you should be using common sense. Examples Quinn just recently gained popularity it ll take some time for people to climb with her Twitch was broken champion for 2 seasons some people are just camping (3 challs. few masters) > -if a champion isn't played at chall, it means it sucks? If a champion isnt played at** master**/chall Euw it generaly means that champion sucks. Hard lesson I learned climbing to chall and also a reason I am not currently chall. Dont wonna play midlaners which are challenger tier since I find em boring + > bronze-tier thinking. most of these guys at that elo have to pick what is confirmed to be best, and pick around it. they don't have the time to experiment and try new stuff out, and usually, when a high-elo player does experiment and find something broken, then it spreads instantly. that's what happened to Essence Reaver Renekton. Reaver renekton was extremly obvious shit. Quadra proc Le blanc for example wasnt.. (which is how I broke chall meta) change happens, and the high-elo players respond. it's very rare it's the other way around, so us not seeing champion X on chall right now doesn't mean it sucks, it just means there's a lack of data. likewise, just because a lot of masters/challengers are using a champion, that doesn't mean it's top-tier unless it actually has good results, you fuckwit. and Lucian's results are average at best, not top-tier. Over average easly top 5 carry in game. Bassicly dont ask for buffs > -yeah, and kda means nothing, too. do all EU players think like you? i really hoped EU or NA would win worlds, but it seems more unlikely... It literaly means nothing I suggest checking how many Euw master/challs are at certain champions and are they still playing them, cant go into detail on why KDA doesnt matter without sounding extremly cocky BUT dont be bothered by KDA > -"threaten the backline" is another way of saying "hitting priority targets", which is really hard because your range sucks, okay? you're sounding like you've never played Lucian. you may dash in, but dashing out alive is very situational, dude. Lucian isn't Vayne, and even Vayne only tumbles forward if she has a confirmed kill. **I main Lucian** Mastery 6 or 7 had like 70% winrate across 40 games in one season **You dps what is closest to you** and that is fine Vayne is easly THE weakest ADC in game atm > -yeah, supports have one less potion so Lucian got a buff. what the actual fuck? like Lucian was always known for his excellent ability to out-harass the enemy support... Lucian is a lane bully. ADC lane bullies matter more with supports having 1 less potion. Draven,Ez,Mf get indirect buff to for example.
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T21:22:27.916+0000) > > Hm i do follow 9gag, now sure how you could see that by my writing but thats impressive > > Yes I reached it 4 times.. I peeked top 50 on Eune > > THERE ARE CHAMPION WHO DONT EVEN GET TO HAVE % AT FKING CHALLENGER/MASTER AND LUCIAN IS **AT 50% in the HIGHEST ELO** > Lucian mains also have 57-58% winrate > > > Both Le blanc and Ryze were op at 45% winrate multiple times. Lucian also isnt on easy side you should expect him to have less then 50% winrate on average to be balanced > > Average world had 45% winrate at LB and Ryze I didnt I was at 60% + same with ryze mains > > > > > Go to lolalytics > put Euw server on (the most relevant server) > choose a champion > scroll down > > 0 **Vaynes **over dia2 > 0 **Sivirs** over dia1 > 6 Challenger **Lucians** 10 master Lucians > 7 Challenger **Kaisas** around 10 master kaisas (she has high banrate to kaisa mains have 59% wr) > 11 Challenger **Ezreals **(granted ezreal gets broken multiple times a season, might be some people just trying not to decay) around 10 masters > 0 Challenger **Varus **players, 1 Master (prob outclassed by kaisa..) Yes Lucian is higher tier then Varus > 0 challenger **Ashe players** 1 master granted she is better in 5vs5 ranked > 3 challenger **Draven players** 8 masters > > > Now you should be using common sense. Examples > > Quinn just recently gained popularity it ll take some time for people to climb with her > Twitch was broken champion for 2 seasons some people are just camping (3 challs. few masters) > > > If a champion isnt played at** master**/chall Euw it generaly means that champion sucks. Hard lesson I learned climbing to chall and also a reason I am not currently chall. Dont wonna play midlaners which are challenger tier since I find em boring + > > Reaver renekton was extremly obvious shit. Quadra proc Le blanc for example wasnt.. (which is how I broke chall meta) > > > change happens, and the high-elo players respond. it's very rare it's the other way around, so us not seeing champion X on chall right now doesn't mean it sucks, it just means there's a lack of data. likewise, just because a lot of masters/challengers are using a champion, that doesn't mean it's top-tier unless it actually has good results, you fuckwit. and Lucian's results are average at best, not top-tier. > > Over average easly top 5 carry in game. Bassicly dont ask for buffs > > It literaly means nothing I suggest checking how many Euw master/challs are at certain champions and are they still playing them, cant go into detail on why KDA doesnt matter without sounding extremly cocky BUT dont be bothered by KDA > > **I main Lucian** Mastery 6 or 7 had like 70% winrate across 40 games in one season > **You dps what is closest to you** and that is fine > > Vayne is easly THE weakest ADC in game atm > > Lucian is a lane bully. ADC lane bullies matter more with supports having 1 less potion. Draven,Ez,Mf get indirect buff to for example. i've mained Lucian since his release, too, dude. i really enjoyed him when he had 550 auto range, 2 second W move-speed buff with an AD ratio, an E that removes slows, and a weak as shit ult that reset your E cooldowns. i got all the way to plat 1 a long time ago with Lucian, and i tried really, really hard to get to diamond, but not with Lucian...i just ended up using AD Malzahar to finish my diamond promos. again, you don't really elaborate much, you just keep pointing to EU master/challengers, but like i'll say for the last time, this doesn't prove Lucian is good. if you still can't understand this, i don't know what else to say. these Lucian mains could main Jihn or any other carry with higher range and good mobility, and they might be twice as successful, who knows? if anything, it proves he's usable. i'll concede that point. my original claim was that he's dogshit. i guess he's not total shit. but you're definitely not selling me on why he's good... and you keep looking at EUW stats, but sorry, that's not the most relevant server. KR still is the most competitive solo-que environment, and they're not bullshitting you when they say if you're diamond in any other region, you'll be gold in KR. just the sheer number of players in master tier and above overwhelmingly larger than any other region...seriously...because master+ players in other regions smurf in KR all the fucking time. and i'm no fan of the KR server. i think it's full of assholes, and the "toxicity" level is through the roof. one thing to note is that kR is not known for popping new ideas. usually, the other servers find broken stuff, and it carries over to KR. but, as i said, nobody in KR considered even past-patch Lucian OP. they literally just considered him one of the only usable AD carries at all. you just saw fucking swain/vlad/yasuo and other assorted bullshit at bot lane. AD carries were just gone the previous patch, aside from the occasional Lucians. lastly, DPS what is closest to you is not always fine...i just do not understand why you keep speaking like you got your doctorate in Lucian Studies, and then proceed to say stuff like this... if your Alistar just headbutt-pulverized some enemies in a teamfight, and one of them is Syndra who's super fed, and you're the only DPS in the vicinity, then you have to dash forward, even if it means getting dry-humped by 2~3 enemies afterwards. and this is why i don't like Lucian. every other ADC has enough range for you to risk auto-attacking for a crit, or other ADCs like Ezreal can just use a skill that passes through enemies. Lucian has nothing, you HAVE to dash forward if you can't get a culling in immediately. and there is NO GUARANTEE YOU'RE DASHING OUT. you can dash in, and it'll work out sometimes. but sometimes, it won't, and you can't carry like that. you just said it yourself: you're so team-dependent, that even if you came out of your lane dominant, you'll still lose if your team's moronic. But if you had Ashe, or Jihn, you can still make game-changing plays so your moronic team gets a grip. Lucian? I sometimes just regret having gotten all the kills.
Poske (EUNE)
: XDD KR master very serious server Much internet caffee forced early game meta, with horrible toxicity policy. Much serious server You see there are multiple issues with your statement - Winrate literaly means nothing. Le blanc and ryze were top tier broken shit challenger tier multiple times at 45% Winrate - Master tier Winrate is incredibly small sample size. Challenger winrate 50%? SOME CHAMPIONS CANT EVEN REACH CHALL YOU FKING - Kda player - Lucian doesnt suck you have around 8 challenger and 10 masters on Euw proving you wrong. Very few AD carries can boast with such numbers, Now sure he isnt Quinn, / Kaisa tier but he isnt far off. You are more likely to see Lucian nerfs then buffs - LUCIANFJASFBNASF DOESNT HAVE TO THREATEN A BACKLINE YOU NO MACRO ANIMAL, and he certainly can with dashing in and out - Those who burst better typically lack sustained dps or are skillshot reliant like Taliyah - Lucian as an early game ADC just got buffed because supports have 1 less Potion Why Am I arguing with someone who never even reached chall about viability
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T16:02:21.840+0000) > > XDD KR master very serious server > Much internet caffee forced early game meta, with horrible toxicity policy. Much serious server > > > You see there are multiple issues with your statement > - Winrate literaly means nothing. Le blanc and ryze were top tier broken shit challenger tier multiple times at 45% Winrate > - Master tier Winrate is incredibly small sample size. Challenger winrate 50%? SOME CHAMPIONS CANT EVEN REACH CHALL YOU FKING > - Kda player > - Lucian doesnt suck you have around 8 challenger and 10 masters on Euw proving you wrong. Very few AD carries can boast with such numbers, Now sure he isnt Quinn, / Kaisa tier but he isnt far off. You are more likely to see Lucian nerfs then buffs > - LUCIANFJASFBNASF DOESNT HAVE TO THREATEN A BACKLINE YOU NO MACRO ANIMAL, and he certainly can with dashing in and out > - Those who burst better typically lack sustained dps or are skillshot reliant like Taliyah > - Lucian as an early game ADC just got buffed because supports have 1 less Potion > > > Why Am I arguing with someone who never even reached chall about viability listen, dude. First, stop it with your unfunny reddit/9gag memes, and stop your autistic caps lock. your last statement makes it sound like you're reached chall before, but i don't understand why you're making bronze-tier arguments. -"winrate means nothing." okay, then why is it that challenger/master Lucians are only winning 50% of the time, you imbecile? if i get rid of the buzzword "winrate", now can you think critically? if Lucian is top-tier, then why are the people who are best at him barely winning half of their games? and if LeBlanc and Ryze had 45% winrates, maybe they weren't top-tier broken shit at that time? winrate isn't everything, but it's not nothing. can't you hold two thoughts at once? -if a champion isn't played at chall, it means it sucks? bronze-tier thinking. most of these guys at that elo have to pick what is confirmed to be best, and pick around it. they don't have the time to experiment and try new stuff out, and usually, when a high-elo player does experiment and find something broken, then it spreads instantly. that's what happened to Essence Reaver Renekton. change happens, and the high-elo players respond. it's very rare it's the other way around, so us not seeing champion X on chall right now doesn't mean it sucks, it just means there's a lack of data. likewise, just because a lot of masters/challengers are using a champion, that doesn't mean it's top-tier unless it actually has good results, you fuckwit. and Lucian's results are average at best, not top-tier. -yeah, and kda means nothing, too. do all EU players think like you? i really hoped EU or NA would win worlds, but it seems more unlikely... -"threaten the backline" is another way of saying "hitting priority targets", which is really hard because your range sucks, okay? you're sounding like you've never played Lucian. you may dash in, but dashing out alive is very situational, dude. Lucian isn't Vayne, and even Vayne only tumbles forward if she has a confirmed kill. -yeah, supports have one less potion so Lucian got a buff. what the actual fuck? like Lucian was always known for his excellent ability to out-harass the enemy support... you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. but at least you and i agree that ADCs in general are still terrible, but even then i still don't agree that just nerfing/buffing ad infinitum will fix the problem. i'd rather have a big, big change on items and stats.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-01T12:51:05.817+0000) > > you literally just explained why Lucian sucks ass, yet you said he's top tier at the end. BECAUSE THERE ARE MULTIPLE CHALLENGER / MASTER TIER LUCIANS ON EVERY GOOD SERVER HE IS EASLY IN TOP 4 CARRIES IN GAME YOU CANT FKING ASK FOR BUFFS He is slightly dependant on his teammates which is not something I am a fan off There are 0 sivir players above dia1 on euw There is not a single Dia1 + vayne player on EUW NOW THIS CHAMPIONS FKING SUCK > wot? > also, "damage too high" is arguable at best, or just plain out false. lucian has the worst time out of all ADCs when it comes to putting damage on the back line. he's great for cleanup, but when you're slightly behind? worthless. LISTEN HERE YOU PLATINUM NO NAME, everything you said here is incorrect Lucian can threaten the backline with his Culling ALSO HE DOESNT HAVE TO FKING CARE ABOUT THREATNING THE BACKLINE, Plat logic He isnt even great for cleanup (Katarina, Vayne, twitch are great cleanupers), he is great Dps Burster if he can enter his long Reaver combos Lucian SPIKES OF A SINGLE FKING ITEM, If you want to be utterly useless when you are slightly behind Play AP assassin like Ekko Defense is to Low/pointless in league rather then damage is to high but most ll argue thats the same shit
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T14:22:22.534+0000) > > BECAUSE THERE ARE MULTIPLE CHALLENGER / MASTER TIER LUCIANS ON EVERY GOOD SERVER > HE IS EASLY IN TOP 4 CARRIES IN GAME YOU CANT FKING ASK FOR BUFFS > > > He is slightly dependant on his teammates which is not something I am a fan off > > > There are 0 sivir players above dia1 on euw > There is not a single Dia1 + vayne player on EUW > > NOW THIS CHAMPIONS FKING SUCK > > LISTEN HERE YOU PLATINUM NO NAME, everything you said here is incorrect > > Lucian can threaten the backline with his Culling ALSO HE DOESNT HAVE TO FKING CARE ABOUT THREATNING THE BACKLINE, Plat logic > He isnt even great for cleanup (Katarina, Vayne, twitch are great cleanupers), he is great Dps Burster if he can enter his long Reaver combos > Lucian SPIKES OF A SINGLE FKING ITEM, If you want to be utterly useless when you are slightly behind Play AP assassin like Ekko > > > Defense is to Low/pointless in league rather then damage is to high but most ll argue thats the same shit yes, vayne and sivir currently suck. Lucian's winrate on KR master is 48%, his challenger winrate is 50%, and his kda is ass for an ADC. Lucian still sucks, boy. you're not proving me wrong. Also, lel? lucian can threaten the backline with his culling? gee weez, if i'm talking plat logic, you're talking bronze logic, retard. with the champs that are roaming nowadays, you might get one good Culling in one entire match. why the fuck do you spout idiocy in caps? he's a good DPS burster, but too bad every other DPS burster is 2x better. fuck off, man.
: Just ban jhin problem solved ur now the in the top tier. Side note im getting fucking sick of playing against jhins and wouldnt mind him getting nerfed
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-01T13:15:17.935+0000) > > Just ban jhin problem solved ur now the in the top tier. Side note im getting fucking sick of playing against jhins and wouldnt mind him getting nerfed all this constant nerfing and buffing to no end, ad infinitum, for eternity that's one of the root causes of this travesty. we don't need any more champions, but a gigantic patch that redoes stats in its entirety and i know i sound like a whiny bitch, but even still i vehemently disagree. banning Jhin does not make Lucian any less shit.
Poske (EUNE)
: Damage is to high, I struggle carrying with Lucian myself since unless you have your ~~slave ~~ support following you entire time you really cant force stuff despite being fed However lucian is Top tier ATM
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-01T11:38:12.003+0000) > > Damage is to high, I struggle carrying with Lucian myself since unless you have your ~~slave ~~ support following you entire time you really cant force stuff despite being fed > > However lucian is Top tier ATM you literally just explained why Lucian sucks ass, yet you said he's top tier at the end. wot? also, "damage too high" is arguable at best, or just plain out false. lucian has the worst time out of all ADCs when it comes to putting damage on the back line. he's great for cleanup, but when you're slightly behind? worthless.
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-01T09:29:27.961+0000) > > can we at least, at the very least, elaborate on our claims instead of just saying shit out of our ass > something like caitlyn is completely braindead compared to lucian > and you can't DO ANYTHING with this guy, at least with Caitlyn, you spam traps and use your ult for finishing off targets > and at least Ashe can still apply tons of CC > and at least Varus can still go Rageblade and apply some CC while at it > and at least Jihn can still apply tons of CC and have enough mobility to not die every minute > and at least Ezreal is still Ezreal > > the fuck does Lucian have? Someone slept patch 8.11. 8.12 8.13 and 8.14. My my you look dumber than I thought.
> [{quoted}](name=EnergonVlada,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T11:32:27.973+0000) > > Someone slept patch 8.11. 8.12 8.12 and 8.14. > My my you look dumber than I thought. forget the other patches, moron i'm talking about now fuck off if you don't have a counter-argument. i don't even know how fucking terrible you have to be at the game to even defend 500-range AD carries presently
Tardic (EUNE)
: what problem you have with silvers ? :)
> [{quoted}](name=Tardic,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-01T10:05:12.868+0000) > > what problem you have with silvers ? :) nothing, personally but it's just that you wouldn't ask for help on a calculus question from a 7 year old i'm fine if a silver talks about game balance, if he plays, thinks, and expresses himself like a plat player would
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: Lucian is easy to play and is stilll more optimal than other adcs desoite building on hit now. Who knows, maybe crit Lucian will return one day once people find it viable again.
> [{quoted}](name=EnergonVlada,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-01T08:44:16.701+0000) > > Lucian is easy to play and is stilll more optimal than other adcs desoite building on hit now. > Who knows, maybe crit Lucian will return one day once people find it viable again. can we at least, at the very least, elaborate on our claims instead of just saying shit out of our ass something like caitlyn is completely braindead compared to lucian and you can't DO ANYTHING with this guy, at least with Caitlyn, you spam traps and use your ult for finishing off targets and at least Ashe can still apply tons of CC and at least Varus can still go Rageblade and apply some CC while at it and at least Jihn can still apply tons of CC and have enough mobility to not die every minute and at least Ezreal is still Ezreal the fuck does Lucian have?
: wasn't he top tier for a while after the crit item nerfs sure remember him single handedly carrying games and really not having much of an issue laning despite his range
> [{quoted}](name=BlueVestGuy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fzdXqU7q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-01T07:45:02.418+0000) > > wasn't he top tier for a while after the crit item nerfs > sure remember him single handedly carrying games and really not having much of an issue laning despite his range i think he was the only usable ADC that wasn't absolute garbage during that time, yes also, he still doesn't have that big of a problem laning the biggest issue with him right now is that he has to take a big risk for his max dmg output, and he has no CC so you usually have to itemize so compensate for that if you want to make plays but i don't see why he should just be a standard ADC who sits in the back with a kit like that. he used to be able to assassinate before his ult range nerf with Youmu's and BotRK in other words, now he's just completely outclassed by any ADC who has long range abilites, and any ADC who doesn't have long-range abilities is garbage now, this is why I only see fucking Ezreals and Jihns
Rioter Comments
: Yeah thats why i have 128k with him and easy 70% winrate in 13 rank matches yeah bro i know thats not a big number of Matches but who cares Aatrox was god u didnt play him enought so please do not talk about champ u hate because u maybe suck with him or bbecause u just hate play vs The Old Aatrox. And Try to join in BOards with your LoL main Account and then i can see what Aatrox u were :)
please search 1ucian on op.gg my main account is on the KR server but it's pretty fucking boring arguing with some moron that just says "lol u jus suck" that has nothing to do with old Aatrox being shit, anyway. he was objectively shit in every dimension of analysis, and I made that pretty clear and concise in my main post, but I guess I don't expect retarded Aatrox defenders to bother reading anything that has more than 50 words.
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFj3mBuy,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-04T19:11:45.321+0000) > > The old Aatrox was a one-dimensional shallow piece of shit that was only good at one thing and had little to no versatility. I've played him quite a bit, ever since his release, and got proficiency 7 last season, and I'm not even sad he's gone. > > One-dimensional one-trick ponies are for 450 IP (or blue essence, as we call it nowadays) champions. This is Ashe, Garen, Master Yi, Annie territory - no flexibility, versatility, and adaptability. If you meet a wild Zed in the bush as Ashe, you're fucked. No possible genius combination of any of your abilities will save you. But you're the best at applying constant CC out of all ADCs, and this is the only thing you will ever be good at. This is one of the reasons she's 450. > > Old, old Aatrox was definitely not 450, but played like one. You auto-attack things: The End. Your Q was there so you can auto attack things. Your W is there so your auto attacks are special. Your E is there so you don't catch cancer from everyone kiting you too hard, which will allow you to auto attack some more things if you catch up to them. I'll concede that his E was the only thing that allowed his laning and pushing speed to not be absolute horseshit, but it was a rather insignificant part of his kit. It was there just so you won't be too dogshit in lane. And finally, his R is there so you can auto-attack things faster. Sounds like Master Yi with no movement speed bonus and a revive. Yes, that's what he was. > > I tried so hard to make that piece of shit work. I think I understood how he was "meant" to be played - you're some edgy nerd who wields a really edgy blade and you love "massacre". You're supposed to dive in the middle of 5 enemies, pop your ult off, slash your sword really fast and leech life off and revive again. The problem was that he was completely stat-dependent, and if you lacked the attack speed, HP, levels, and AD, you were worthless and a Master Yi would have done the job better. I don't call this good design, and me and other people really only played him for the style points. > > The new Aatrox still has the same concept: you're really edgy and you want to massacre things, so you dive in and wield your big sword and leech life off and revive. Except now, he has more versatility in how he goes about doing it. Long ago, you had to pray your Q landed on someone. If it didn't, you had to pray you would get 5 stacks before you died. Now, if your Q misses, you still have 2 more. You don't have to worry about stupid stacks that expire in 0.1 seconds. You don't have to toggle on a leech, which was pretty fucking stupid and it was hard to tell, even after 500 games, which W I had toggled on in the middle of a team fight. Now, you have multiple sources of CC, and you're not fucking worthless if you miss your Q on the enemy carry late game. Best of all, you actually get bonus movement speed now as a melee character. > > You'd have to be actually pretty clueless to bash on the new Aatrox. If you didn't see the similarities, then you can't see the broader qualities of champion design. Yes, none of his abilities except for his revive remained. Take a wild guess why. The old Aatrox had NOTHING except auto-attacks. Why are you shocked that the new Aatrox has nothing the old Aatrox had, when the old Aatrox had NOTHING? I wont change my opinion old Aatrox Was God and for sure u didnt play him enought to understand the champ :)
I wont change my opinion old Aatrox Was Pure Shit and for sure u didnt play him enough to understand how shit he is :)
Rioter Comments
: Thats because u suck with him, But Old Aatrox Was God compared with this shit that they called Aatrox and its just a new champ with his name.
I wonder if you're still thinking this now? The utter stupidity is just amazing. No wonder the balance is retarded, the company actually tries to cater to people like you.
: So... you got mastery lvl 7, played him a lot, couldn't figure him out... so he's a garbage champ? Honestly, I'll save the "how he was supposed to be played" to someone else if they so decide. He just wasn't a champ **you** should have picked up or continued playing if you weren't good at him. Simple as that.
Yep. That's exactly right, except for the "figure him out" part. What's there to figure out about a shit version of Master Yi with wings? You were completely outclassed by every other bruiser there was and your laning was shit until the stacks thing came out, then he was slightly less shit against people who didn't know how his kit worked.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Hnorah: The Unholy
: Hnorah: The Unholy
: Hnorah: The Unholy
: Hnorah: The Unholy
dominusx (EUNE)
: who said fiora or irelia are even close to beeing balanced? fiora is the type of champ u can shit on me but i will still kill you because hurr durr mechanics aka melee vayne. irelia is just aids lul
"hecarim's OP because reasons" "oh and so is fiora" "and irelia" we get it son. Your criteria for OP is "champion I don't like". "Champion I like" is the best balanced champion in the game.
dominusx (EUNE)
: People telling adc players LEARN TO KITE HECA.
His ult is pretty easy to dodge. You guys are just bad. He really is one of the easier bruisers to kite, because he's the "move fast" type, not the "I blink into your face in an instant" type. Try kiting a Fiora or an Irelia. What about fucking Nocturne?
: There's no excuse about it, Riot actually posted that they don't want to nerf Lee Sin because he adds a lot to competitive play. That's IN a red post. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6EEk9efX-musings-on-fun-and-clunkiness?comment=00000000 Not to mention that statistics literally mean EVERYTHING in terms of champion balance. If a champion has both a high playrate and winrate, it means that champion is preforming exceptionally well despite many people playing him. Also, I literally explained whow winrate and playrate correlate. Btw, on you trying to pull "he only has a good winrate in low tiers"; he has a 49.9% winrate in Plat+, are you trying to say Plat+ is the unskilled low ELO? And one more thing, for a champion that is supposed to be a high skill-floor and massive skill-ceiling, he should have an EXTREMELY low winrate when having a high playrate as he does. On your very first game with Lee Sin, there is an average 43% winrate, playing 5 games you have a 45% winrate, above 15, it goes to 50% winrate, for this mechanically intensive champion. Compare this to other high-skill champions; {{champion:268}} - abysmal 38% winrate on your first game {{champion:136}} - 39% winrate on game 1 {{champion:429}} - 36% winrate on game 1 You get the picture, and all of these winrates are all from plat+, players already decently skilled at the game, but Lee Sin is strong enough that you're only 10% more likely to lose on game on than you are on game 150, whereas the rest of these, the gap is closer to 20%, or higher. Your entire argument is backwards and honestly, from the very first sentence, you already seem tilted.
Yeah, Riot says things they don't really mean. Or, they say half-truths, like all companies like to do. 49.9% seems like a very balanced winrate for Plat. >for a champion that is supposed to be a high skill-floor and massive skill-ceiling, he should have an EXTREMELY low winrate when having a high playrate as he does. No. You don't understand statistics and sample-size. A large playrate is a large sample size. It's like a survey. Democrats thought Hillary was going to win with a 98% probability because the surveys were mainly done by a small sample of a single demographic. The larger the sample size, the more accurate the statistic. So, a high playrate just gives the winrate more accuracy. It definitely does NOT mean "more people should be losing" or "more people should be winning". Do champions get weaker when more people play them or something? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. >first-game winrate This has a higher margin of error due to smaller sample size and more factors affecting win/loss. 36%~45%, in other words, an 8% margin of error, seems very reasonable. But, more importantly, first-game winrate is not really much of a reliable statistic. We have to take into account smurfs, the amount of exposure to the champion in other games, the amount of tutorials and tips that can be found just by browsing YouTube, etc. You can watch and learn LoL. And you see Lee a heck of a lot more often than you see Sol or Kalista.
: You're hung up on ad hominem instead of addressing that I brought forth valid claims. Just because someone gave you a harsh review doesn't mean you should call people names and lash out by calling them bad. You didn't debunk any claim, you used hyperbole that didn't address the problems I brought up. There is no shame in accepting feedback, and, contrary to what you may think, numbers are very important to the champion process. Without them, they either deal no damage or far too much. 'Haven't played enough to properly run simulations'.....neither have you? This isn't a real champion. I have over 1100 games on this account alone, I've critiqued dozens of champions and am currently running this month's champion creation contest. Calm down. It's fine if you don't like what I said. I can't make you make any changes, even though it appears that you did. Just please be more respectful when presented with a differing opinion.
Well, that was a rather touching exchange between you two. But I bashed your review because it actually was quite worthless. I listened to New Support Meta's review because it was clear he put a lot of thought and effort into it, even though I didn't agree with all of his points. This is why your "review" was worthless: 1. You throw in vague buzzwords such as "toxic, unfun, least cohesive". Completely subjective words you just threw in for the sake of throwing in. The cohesiveness is undoubtedly there, it just flew right past over your head. This is probably due to my second point: 2. You judge this champion in the most impractical scenario - a scenario where he's operating at 120% because every single condition is right. Here's the thing - although I removed the AD passive, it wasn't because I thought it was broken. There was simply a better idea that harmonizes with his playstyle. Here's where you went off the rails in your simulation: a completely non-ranged, immobile champion with no sustain and a fixed attack speed won't farm 200 CS in most games, unless he's playing against bots for 40 minutes. Secondly, 1000~2000 games isn't enough to properly run simulations, good sir. I've been playing since fucking Season 1. I migrated over to the KR server when it opened during Season 2 in 2012, and I've been playing there ever since. I've played the game for nearly 6 years, and I'm pretty sure my total game matches on all of my accounts is somewhere over 8000. I've played this game fucking religiously. And I still cannot have a clear grasp on how this champion might actually function in a real game. Only certain scenarios - very easily predictable scenarios. But games rarely flow as you think it would. 3. You can't grasp the idea that this champion has many limitations. He has a lot of conditions and prerequisites to be met in order to "nuke your ass into orbit", which you seem to be so terribly afraid of, despite a fair number of champions in the game doing that already with ridiculous mobility. This is the reason why I was convinced you didn't read the thing. You think he's a hyper-omega fusion of Sion, Darius and Evelynn, but unless you blind your enemy or he's distracted, everything this champion does is completely telegraphed and predictable - and most importantly, SLOW. This is why he needs stealth, or else, I'll have to give him a dash ability like 100+ other champions in the game. Without stealth, he'll just be feeding fodder. Also, why can't you understand the fact that his Q is just insanely difficult to hit at all? The only ability in the game that works similarly is Sion's Q, and this one has a shorter range (that is, NOT glorified). Let's not also forget the fact that Sion's Q right now can hardly, hardly be called unbalanced. Comparing him to Evelynn or Twitch or any other stealth champion currently in the game is just you not understanding what I wrote. 4. Your fixation on numbers is very much like the rest of the Gameplay board. The focus is solely on "too high, too low", without ever thinking much about the context of the numbers. Just like how people look at high winrate and pretend that is evidence of imbalance, you look at the high damage and think this is evidence of imbalance. This sort of one-dimensional thinking does no one any good. High winrate is indicative of imbalance ONLY when in tandem with high playrate, and there are rarely, rarely any champions like this. High damage is indicative of imbalance ONLY when in tandem with accessibility (range, cooldown, number of targets, casting speed). His Q and ult has high damage, very low accessibility. They balance the scale. You can criticize other aspects of it, but you cannot make the point that it is unbalanced with such flimsy, shallow reasoning. For examples of damage and accessibility working in tandem, consider: Kog'maw ult, Fiora Q, Riven Q, Hecarim Q, Orianna passive, etc. // Zigg's ult, Heimendinger ult+W (massive rocket blast, easily deals 2000+ magic damage if all connects), Lucian ult, Darius Q and ult, etc. The actual damage numbers are all either too low // too high in proportion to the average champion health pool. But they work without breaking the game. Why? So, in the end, I can't respect somebody who feels he is entitled to an opinion while being terribly uninformed. I was angry at you because your post was literally a waste of space. I felt sorry for people who had to scroll through it, really. And I would have done the same for anyone who argued in the same fashion.
: Riot LITERALLY said they want to keep him strong because he "adds a lot to competitive play" In other words he brings in more money in the LCS. In other words, Riot is playing massive favorites.
In actuality, Riot knows the arguments against Lee are worthless, but at the same time, they don't want to hurt the feelings of the precious special snowflakes. So they just gave a half-assed excuse. These special snowflakes have this idea that they designed the game and know more about the game than the developers. To add to the hilarity, they are under the never-ending delusion that their opinion matters. They also enjoy pseudo-intellectualism, and they constantly quote statistics to give the impression that they have some sort of substantial evidence for their bullshittery - when the statistic is too often meaningless. The only meaningful statistic in regards to champion power is the positive relationship between pickrate and winrate. In other words, they both need to be high to prove a disproportiate amount of power compared to other champions. Lee doesn't have this. The whiners just point to any statistic that is high and view that as evidence for imbalance. They'll eagerly point to his rather average winrate in lower tiers as proof of being overpowered and then conveniently ignore his abysmal winrate in higher tiers. They'll eagerly point to his high pick rate without explaining how that's relevant to win rate. They're both percentages. It doesn't matter if 10 people play Lee and his winrate is 50, or if 100 people play Lee and his winrate is 50. It just means his winrate is 50.
aspects1 (NA)
: lee can outduel all three of those people at lvl 3... you building full ap or something?
On the contrary, Lee loses to all 3 of those champions if his HP is lower. Not really my actual point, though.
: Nami. I don't think she has been changed for ages.
Do a search on Nami. Guaranteed you'll find someone complaining about her.
: ***
Just go full defense quints and seals and keep your HP above 90% at all times. You'll win against Lee as long as your HP is higher than him and you have red buff. His kit is designed so that he's a piece of shit opportunist that can only grab kills in certain situations.
: Do you like not use any abilities when playing Lee. The only junglers that genuinely shit on Lee Sin early game are Elise, and Gragas. I don't think I can ever lose a 1v1 as Lee vs Master Yi, because Lee has really good attack speed steroid on his passive for duels and really good damage with his Q.
Nice anecdotal evidence. Try counter jungling with Yi against Lee. That's right - counter jungle with Yi. You'd be shocked when you discover what a piece of shit Lee is when you just tank his Q with Meditate.
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N7ttKWV1,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-11T17:26:50.220+0000) > > You people and your infatuation with balance. Of all the bajillion things that affect pick/win/loss/ban rate, you always pick the most untangible, unprovable one: "because he's inbalanced." > > Why won't we just admit that we don't know the criteria for "perfectly balanced"? Give me an example of a perfectly balanced champion and compare him with Lee Sin, please. And good luck with that, because there is not a single champion who is universally agreed upon to be balanced. > > What? Warwick? His HP regeneration is one of the best in the game and his late-game scaling is bullshit. He wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. > What? Master Yi? You can alpha-strike dodge anything, get free tanking with Meditation, and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. > What? Amumu? AP Amumu blows the fuck out of everyone and flash+R literally just wins you games. Also, he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. > What? [insert jungler here]? His [insert skill here] does too much damage and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. > > The forums is a considered a joke because Riot, still, after 6 fucking years, refuses to become or elect a final arbiter for gameplay balance. They just listen to whoever's loudest. No one's opinion is considered [expert]. None of those champions have the amount of mobility lee has. That's what makes him so frustrating even when he's SLIGHTLY OP. Because he is SUPER forgiving to play early/mid and very unforgiving to play against. Even late game if he's ahead or is team is ahead (which is fairly easy considering his clear and gank potential), he can 1 shot a squishy with his combo if they misposition (or caught out, very few champs, especially squishy ones, have his mobility). He can engage good fights with his kick/wardhop and disengage bad ones. I know LCS isn't a good example, but look at worlds I believe ROX be SKT best teams in the world, Peanut warshops under tower and flashes behind Faker under turret and kicks him into his team. Even bronze 5 players could react on that engage and 1 shot the person being kicked. Then he proceeds to take his unmissable (because of ult) q to escape. I mean there's just no outplay to his kick, and pretty much only alistar could do the same thing (don't get me wrong, I hate alistar as well, but various things keep him in check + NEED for flash to insec)
-mobility Buzzword. A bunch of champions have mobility. A bunch of items give mobility. You're probably complaining about his two dashes - except for the fact that they have conditions to be met. 1. Q must connect 2. You must have an object to W to Fiora has more mobility than Lee in certain situations. Vayne is faster than Lee. Ezreals think Lee is fodder, a minion that gives 300+ gold. -forgiving Another buzzword. A buzzword that makes no sense. Like all champions, if you mess up, you die. If you play good, you don't die. You make it seem like you can miss your Q, ward hop in fucking slow-motion, like most bad Lee players do, and then use R on the enemy support, and still come out of the teamfight with 90% HP because "We _forgive_ you, because you're Lee Sin!" -engage Completely telegraphed. People watch the highlight videos, the sick pro plays, see the champion operating at 110% potential and then give the champion way too much credit. His Insec-kick-toss is the most predictable and telegraphed move in the whole game. You can literally bait him into Q-ing too deep. There are a bajillion ways to counter his kick - because it's so obvious what he'll try to do with it. -disengage A "disengage" is something like a Janna ult. Yeah, sure, Lee Sin disengages - by himself. And then proceeds to be useless for the next 10 seconds. Hardly a problem. Lee Sin's like a mosquito in the mid-late game - kill him if you have the chance. If you can't, oh well. He's just a nuisance, and nothing more.
: Janna is perfectly balanced. Literally the ideal support, not oppressive, hasn't needed a buff or nerf in years. Flawless.
Nah. There was a thread complaining about Janna yesterday. His claims were completely unfounded - just like the complaints for Lee Sin. Literally every single champion in this game has been complained about at least once. You're thinking "Well, of course. Noobs whine about dumb shit all the time." And they whine about Lee Sin, too. It's just that they whine a lot louder and more often. Doesn't mean any of their arguments are legitimate because they keep throwing around more meaningless buzzwords. muh early game muh mobility muh map pressure muh displacement Despite the fact that almost a quarter of all the champions in the game can be described with these vague buzzwords, including [my favorite champion that is obviously the best balanced because I like it]
: Hnorah: The Unholy
: Ok how about if Lee was not able to use his E on wards, which is a complete shenanigan that I could never grasp my mind around then I would never complain again. Then maybe you'd actually have to have some synergy with a teammate to pull off your "skilled" play.
You mean W m8. This is because of the whole "pro play" debacle. He'll never show up in tournaments again if this happened. And logically so. He'd be completely worthless without ward-hopping.
: Literally all you have to do is look at win rate in relation to play rate. If a champion's play rate is far higher than any other champion in its class and the win rate is still high, then it is obviously that champ is stronger than the rest and easier because you can look at the stat for number of games of experience and win rate in in those brackets. The fact that you think statistics taken over thousands of games are not relevant proves that you are both not very smart and that you have no idea what you're talking about.
I have never said these statistics are irrelevant. I said that none of you ever explain its relevancy in your arguments. There are many factors that affect playrate: 1. Popularity of a champion. If a popular pro player or streamer plays a champion often, or YouTube is filled with highlight reels of a particular champion, that can affect playrate. 2. Current meta. Fiora became popular in the top lane because she wrecked hard tankers like Maokai. Subsequently, Maokai's pick and winrate dropped - not because his numbers were changed. Because people "discovered" that Fiora is a better pick. 3. Perceived high-skill cap. A lot of players play for bragging rights and to "git gud". Champions like Lee Sin make flashy plays and is generally conceived to have a high skill cap. This makes him an attractive pick. Lee Sin's winrate was never high. His pick and banrate was. People with non-arguments look at _**any**_ statistic that is high and think that is evidence of imbalance. It isn't. If both playrate AND winrate is high, as you said, then yes. You can say that champion is disproportionately strong. The fact is, there are rarely any champions like that. But you would think the game's filled with them if you look at the general thread titles for the forums.
Divewing (OCE)
: Lee Sin is being protected by Riot for the exact reverse reason Azir was brutalised.
Yeah, it's quite laughable that Riot has said the reason they won't nerf Lee is because of the professional scene. They should just be honest and flat out say, "He's not broken. No one has actually came up with a decent argument as to why he's broken, so we're actively ignoring these clowns like we should". But, like most online gaming companies nowadays, they're trying to protect the feelings of every customer possible as well as desperately try to keep a modicum of vision and direction in the game. What a corporate mess.
: Janna is, as a statement of objective fact...
Yeah, this is exactly the main reason why you dumb chucklefucks will never, ever run out of champions to complain about. You think statistics are the actual indicators of balance. Of all the bajillion things that affect playrate/winrate/lossrate: 1. taste in champions 2. availability of the champion due to price 3. happens to have a skill-set that didn't become side-shifted during any of the changes 4. popularity of the champion in streams/tournaments 5. a conceived "high skill-cap" that attracts players to try to master the champion 6. actual, raw power discrepancy due to exceptionally high numbers (very, very rare) it's always number 6 with you guys. Without ever proving why this is the case. Your "argument" boils down to: **I don't like this champion, so she's obviously broken and needs to be changed so it fits my opinion on how the game should be.** The appeal to statistics is always there to give the impression that you have evidence for any of your assertions. Well, the truth is, you don't. >there's no real answer to her Winrate is not enough evidence to support this. >strongest disengage in the game She has no engage, either. Why is this broken? Irrelevant claim. >Lane trading is a no because spammable shield Lane trading is a yes because spamming attack abilities. Provide evidence that Janna wins the majority of 2v2 damage trades. (You can't.) >Sienge isn't gonna happen because she can put her shield on turrets. Proof that Janna prevents all sieges? When did a single shield on a turret ever prevent it from falling? A siege comp would LOVE Janna on the opposing team - one less engage tool by the enemy, no consistent healing. >Rotation and split comps don't work Proof?
: > [{quoted}](name=LolWutNaniQue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N7ttKWV1,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-11T17:26:50.220+0000) > > You people and your infatuation with balance. People are obsessed with balance... on Gameplay & Balance? Holy shit, alert the freaking media, this is revolutionary!
The board's called Gameplay, chuckle-fuck. There's a sticky that says, "Before you make a post about balance..." which no one seems to read.
: > You people and your infatuation with balance. People want the game to be fun and not dominated by a clearly stronger than the rest champion? Preposterous.
If you wanted the game to be fun, you wouldn't be trying to bring every statistic to 50%. Every champion is "strong". Players complain about a champion because they don't like it. Their criteria for "unbalanced" is "I don't like it", and then they proceed to mask their non-argument with win/loss/pick/ban rate statistics to make it seem like it has credibility. And yet, I have never seen a single comprehensive argument that ties win rate and champion power together - which is no surprise. They have little to no correlation.
: > **Well, firstly, I do thank you for your input. However, I left out the lore on purpose. In its stead, I put down a vague visual concept. He's stealth, very black and ashy, and holds a gigantic Excalibur-like blade that shines in holy glory. Although it is true, like you said, that every champion has a lore, it's quite irrelevant (sorry, Riot lore team!). I'm sure that if this were to theoretically become realized, coming up with a lore then and there would be no problem. I am also under the impression that the lore isn't imperative for a champion concept.** A visual concept and a lore are typically both requested. While neither are, REQUIRED as you say, not having them hurts rather than helps a concept (now matter how lengthly, you feel it may be). But if you do not want to implement one, the choice is yours and yours alone. > **Okay. Perhaps, later, when this gains more traction. Putting that in there right now would make this even longer and more info-dense than it already terribly is.** EX: HP Regen/5 (5); Mana Regen/5 (5) The above example took up only one line, but, suit yourself. As with the lore, NOT adding it can only hurt your concept, rather than the opposite (again, no matter how lengthly you feel it may be). But no one is going to twist your arm. As for the rest, seeing as it is an IMPROVEMENT, I won't further hinder you with my own thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to come up with a concept creation and sharing your idea with the rest of us!
The regen stats have been added just for level 1. The lore also has been indirectly added through ability names and the description of his _**NEW**_ ultimate. It's open-ended lore (some might say vague).
: There's nothing balanced about him when he's picked about 90% of the time compared to other junglers.
You people and your infatuation with balance. Of all the bajillion things that affect pick/win/loss/ban rate, you always pick the most untangible, unprovable one: "because he's inbalanced." Why won't we just admit that we don't know the criteria for "perfectly balanced"? Give me an example of a perfectly balanced champion and compare him with Lee Sin, please. And good luck with that, because there is not a single champion who is universally agreed upon to be balanced. What? Warwick? His HP regeneration is one of the best in the game and his late-game scaling is bullshit. He wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? Master Yi? You can alpha-strike dodge anything, get free tanking with Meditation, and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? Amumu? AP Amumu blows the fuck out of everyone and flash+R literally just wins you games. Also, he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? [insert jungler here]? His [insert skill here] does too much damage and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. The forums is a considered a joke because Riot, still, after 6 fucking years, refuses to become or elect a final arbiter for gameplay balance. They just listen to whoever's loudest. No one's opinion is considered [expert].
Scruberz (NA)
: 42% is still pretty high. High enough that I would not ignore the data. Anything banned over 30% of the time is clearly a strong pick. Potentially too strong. Who should they listen to? You made a reasonable point in your previous post that they should have a good idea of their own game and what direction they wish to go in. They should simply use information like this to decide if it fits the direction they are looking to move in. Do they want Yasuo to be this strong? If so, they do not have to do anything. At the end of the day they should listen to the people who will make them the most money. This is obviously a mix of the 2 groups you have mentioned. One brings more balance to the game, creating a more competitive environment. The other group spends money on the game, whether it be in skins, champion purchases, gifting, etc, and promotes a more enjoyable aspect of the game. At the end of the day, they need to find a balance between making the game more competitive & making the game more enjoyable.
The problem is that they have no direction. They've made superficial gestures - an illusion - to make it seem like the game is changing. In reality, the only thing that is changing are the numbers. The damage numbers. Experience numbers. Timer numbers. Gold numbers. If anything, their direction, or "vision", seems to be to bring all win/loss statistics of every champion as close to 50.0% as possible. It's been like that ever since Season 3. This is not a real vision - this means they are content with the game as it is, and, in actuality, don't want their game to change. The gestures of balance are there simply to appease as many of the current playerbase as possible. What part of the game feels changed, "new", now that Lee Sin's ultimate does less damage? Nothing, really. Lee Sin players now just feel inconvenience while other players feel satisfied. How do they know who to listen to, if they don't know the future of the game? They don't know. This is why they try to listen to **everyone**. They will never find this balance of competitive + enjoyable if they do not start screening out valuable opinions and worthless opinions. But, they will never do this, because they don't know who to listen to. They listen to **everyone**, after all. What this shows about Riot is that they're just wishing the game would never have to change, and that their userbase would never go away.
Scruberz (NA)
: That is a definite option and may even be the right direction. If I was a developer of a game I would certainly try to steer it in the direction I thought was best for the game itself. At the same time though, as the developer, I would have to accept the possibility that I could be wrong. If over half my playerbase was telling me something wasn't working, I would probably be foolish to ignore it. Perhaps the community itself is wrong, but I should at the very least look into it. In my opinion, if Yasuo is sitting at a 52% ban rate right now, then the community is trying to tell Riot that something is currently wrong with Yasuo. Whether they choose to do anything about it is their decision, but they would be foolish to ignore it.
And meanwhile, in Korea, Yasuo only has a 41.54% ban rate. Ban rate doesn't mean much. This is the fundamental question. Who should we listen to? 1. The ill-informed masses of casual players who articulate their complaints poorly? 2. The few elite hardcore players who know the game as much, or even more, than the developers do?
Scruberz (NA)
: And what is wrong with that? It is not the community's job to balance champions or create champions with enjoyable gameplay. If the community feels it is not enjoyable to play against a champion, they will ban that champion from their game. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever state Yasuo happens to be in at the time, if a champion is banned over 50% of the time, then they probably are not a healthy champion to have in the game.
No, it is not the community's job to balance. What is with this fundamentally backwards thinking? This isn't a crowd-source funded developing project. Riot developed the game. They made the game. They designed every aspect of it. Therefore, **IT IS 100% THEIR JOB AND DUTY TO BALANCE THE GAME.** The community can give input. However, the developers should, rationally, as they have every right to, view it as 90% worthless opinions of unskilled players and 10% valuable opinions of hardcore, expert players. Right now, Riot does not differentiate between "well-informed, quality opinions / worthless rantings". They simply look for "which opinion is the most common / which opinion do I see the most."
Scruberz (NA)
: Yes, people generally play games because they enjoy them. If they do not enjoy playing against a certain champion, they will do 1 of 3 things. Ban that champion, discontinue playing the game or complain. Generally, complaining enough without a response leads to outcome #2. Yes it is their game and they should balance the game as they see fit. But if they do this at the expense of their players it could cost them. Or maybe the ones who disagree will leave and they will actually gain players. You never know I suppose. But, once again, generally speaking, ignoring your client base is not usually considered to be a smart business practice.
This train of thought still leads to: "I don't LIKE this part of the game. Do something about it or I'm not playing." This would be an acceptable way of thinking if online games were a charity business and we were donating money to Riot. Even though this is not a charity and this is not an open-source early-access game with development funds coming from donations to their Kickstarter, their approach to game balance is exactly like that. You literally just mentioned the one and only way of fixing the balance issue: let the whiners leave, and let the new players come. We're customers here to enjoy a fully packaged and prepared, professionally made, completed product. This isn't a free demo and we should not be, at this time, giving Riot continuous surveys as to how we feel about this product. If you don't like the product or service, you cancel. What successful online games, particularly from Blizzard, have done in the past is advertise and emphasize the already existing good, positive, attractive qualities of the game. You made the game. You know what's good, what's unique, what's the cash cow. Starcraft did not advertise their game while saying, "We have 3 different, distinct races. But, don't worry, we will always make sure that each race has a 33.333% win rate! If you see a really good Zerg player making Zerg seem really strong, make sure to report it to us, because this is clearly a problem and we don't want to scare our Protoss and Terrans away!" Their promotional videos focused on the differences. The uniqueness. The "I can play this game however I want because it lets me." And, whenever you mention a race's weakness, you mention two more strengths. They did this because they knew their game inside and out. They knew exactly what made it appealling and good. Riot, at the moment, does not understand their own game. So, they're asking their own players, their own customers, to help them understand it. It's odd. Pathetic, almost.
Scruberz (NA)
: Probably, and when 10 bans comes out he'll probably be banned even more often. Whether he is balanced or not the simple fact is people just do not enjoy playing against him.
Yeah, the reason for balance is because of feelings, right? "I don't like this champion. I don't ENJOY fighting him. Sure, he seems more or less in tune with every other late-game carry champions' power curves and has clear strengths and flaws. But that doesn't matter. I don't LIKE him!" Why does the balance team dance with this childish tune? When did they stop making _THEIR_ game and turn it into a early-access Kickstarter-funded indie game? What the hell is their vision, even? You can make a balanced, fun game without flinching over every hyper-sensitive balance criticism. A game that tries too hard to be "50.00% for everyone!" is stale. The most successful online games in the past did not put balance on the highest motherfucking pedestal.
: Hnorah: The Unholy
I have changed his ultimate - for better usability and practicality, as well as uniqueness. Although there were comments that the previous ultimate did too much damage, I was mostly unconvinced to change it because I designed it to be incredibly difficult to use - so difficult, it now actually seems so unpractical as to be silly. Also, it seemed a bit too much like a glorified Q. The current ultimate, The Bell Tolls for Thee, is quite clear and simple in how it can be used - and it still deals TONS of TRUE damage. And hey - overhead swings with big swords are cool, too. This was also an opportunity to perhaps add a touch of lore. Also, ability names have been changed for slightly less cringe, and E now does a bit of magic damage (for wave clearing without using auto-attacks, in order to keep stealth for his stacks)
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LolWutNaniQue

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