: Eh, Godzilla is a hell of a lot less passive, he's more "Right, you pissed me off for whatever reason- I'ma smash you, your neighborhood, your city, and even that other monster who coincidentally is also in my way."
Are you implying rammus doesnt do this to your team when he gets fed?
Malfini (NA)
: So what does Taric do with his right-hand WITHOUT the shield?
Uses his magic brah. Space magic. The worst kind of magic. Fucking space wizards and their martial prowess. {{champion:89}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:131}}
: Why are we censoring Karthus' face in North America?
Serious question. I upvote OP. This is even more egregious because that SAME IMAGE exists with karthus's face. Forgive me. im very sleepy and this is what google gave me. http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/a0061916128dcffbfb944949e824b876.jpg To be fair. It was from back when his face was a straight skeliton rather than the dessicated doom pope I now love.
: Nah, even worse! {{champion:42}} ! Not even the "black guys die first" trope could save his sorry old yordle butt!
Well he IS always 2 weeks from retirement. that supercedes black guy trope
MaddMan (NA)
: I can see veigar trying to be a evil character, then turns good at the end, to just die, kinda like.. Starscream i guess you can say. Goes off and tries to join the void, only to team up with Kassadin and fight vs the void or something, and to let Kass get away, he sacrifices himself to die, or to be locked away in the void. Kind of like Micky and Riku in the first Kingdom Hearts.
I'd really rather see Veigar as a bad guy who nobody takes seriously. I think people failing to take yordles seriously would be an ongoing thing. Also, legitimately killing the champions would be rather limited, barring champs who cant/dont/wont really die. You know, guys like Mordekaiser, Hecarim, Karthus, maybe fiddlesticks. I dont think who dies in fights needs to be as important as what the stakes for fights are. It would seriously take some writing gymnastics, but I think the payoff could be worth it. LoL sort of has always had a darker/edgier saturday morning cartoon feel to me. Like someone got twenty years older and dumped a bucket of darker varnish on a bunch of really really bright things. Am I making any sense? I love league of legends and its universe.
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: we need adcs to take objectives like towers fast and from a distance that's basically the reason why they exist
True dat. Though it makes me wonder about champs who are not marksmen but specialize in tower destruction. Rammus, maybe an azir to cover him. Yi and rammus will make a tower dissappear as quick as any ADC. With a maokai to make the tower radius unfriendly to enemies, I can see no ADC teams working. Then again....I love playing bot lane mordekaiser. :P
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QblAnZG8,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-03-21T20:26:30.344+0000) > > Im really happy you are enjoying Yi toplane. I personally am a fan of Midster Yi but I havent played it in a while. > > That said, he certainly isnt necessarily a better tryndamere. > Tryndamere and get into bad fights that should have killed him, then helicopter over the wall while ulting like he never even cared. > Also, trynd's early game is absolutely nothing to sneer at. I'd also argue his dueling potential against most is higher thanks to his ult. Master Yi has to work really hard to find openings whereas tryndamere can brute force his way in, kill a squishy, and spin over a wall again to go heal up quick. > > While they fill similar niches I would not really say they step on each other's toes quite that much. Trynd's early game is overrated honestly. Yi can cheese just as easily as Trynd at level 1 with wuju style + double strike, and he doesn't have to build fury first. If either yi or trynd got the cheese, then they are both going to dominate. If not, then yi will probably have to play more passively than trynd, but he has the kit to do that. Even if he's taking an ass load of damage he can just max meditate for a full health bar every 30 seconds, more safety vs tower dives, and cheesy baits that can score his teammates kills while he takes the time to ramp up. Trynd gives up too much for too little. You can give up the ability to team fight by playing trynd and in return getting pretty fantastic dueling power... OR you could NOT and still have pretty fantastic dueling power as yi. Or fiora. Or gangplank. Or yasuo. Or jax. What the fuck is event the reason to pick trynd. You can't make a champion THAT bad at grouping and then make them "not really that much better" at doing anything else than his peers. There is no point in giving up that much flexibility for so little gain. RIOT needs to get its head out of its ass and improve Tryndamere's ability to group to match his peers.
Hmm, you do present a compelling argument, however I'd argue that it is much harder to stop Trynd from killing you than it is from Yi, Gangplank, or Yasuo. His towerdiving makes a mockery of theirs. Then again, so do fiora...and jax as you point out. Really good post. Do you think they should do a melee carry pass like they are doing for mages and have for marksman? I was rather pleased with the marksman changes. If so what champs would you propose as candidates? Besides Tryndamere. Or do you feel trynd really needs a rework of his own? I ask because Im wondering whether the problem is with tryndamere's kit, or with the fact that most of the melee carries are top-laning splitpushers? If the former trynd could use a rework, but it sorta sounds like the latter, in which case working on all the melee carries or "light fighters" at once would be a good call. The real question is if they will ever make Aatrox not awful. {{champion:266}} He is in my opinion the worst of the melee carries. He doesnt carry, he cant tank. Hes like a worst case version of trynd and jax and yi together.
: When Malphite uses his ground slam, frozen heart, and randuins omen...
Im really happy you are enjoying Yi toplane. I personally am a fan of Midster Yi but I havent played it in a while. That said, he certainly isnt necessarily a better tryndamere. Tryndamere and get into bad fights that should have killed him, then helicopter over the wall while ulting like he never even cared. Also, trynd's early game is absolutely nothing to sneer at. I'd also argue his dueling potential against most is higher thanks to his ult. Master Yi has to work really hard to find openings whereas tryndamere can brute force his way in, kill a squishy, and spin over a wall again to go heal up quick. While they fill similar niches I would not really say they step on each other's toes quite that much.
Kaamos (NA)
: [SINGED] New Passive Idea: Gas Pressure
I like it in theory, but the idea of running out of gas while they are chasing me just sounds awful. I feel like part of what makes singed who he is comes from his lack of resources late game. Singed turns the valve and the clock starts. Can the enemy team kill him before his nasty stank kills them. Its gonna take awhile....... ~~Whereas here I wonder what the point of the resource is unless~~ Screw it. as I was typing my argument I realized my argument sucked. This is a great idea. I imagine singed turning off the gas while chased and on low health, just to give the enemy hope before the stream bursts out renewed. The rate at which pressure builds would have to raise dramatically over the course of the game though. Likely tied to ult as you said. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-03-12T18:32:16.066+0000) > > In what horrid realm do you want to make Morde a worse pusher than trundle? > > He already does create 4v6 senarios. > He also has disgustingly high objective control once he gets going. When mordes team takes dragon, Morde also takes all the front teir towers. His single target damage on stationary targets is also really really good, meaning he is rather likely to get that ghost dragon. Trundle is a superior tower pusher unless Morde kills someone to become his thrall. I know he already creates 4v6 scenarios, that is what I was saying would make him unique from Trundle if he also stole stats. Also, the Dragon Ghost was just a gimmick to get him to be "solidified as a bot laner" or whatever crap CertainlyT shat out at the time from his mouth hole. Every time I've seen it taken it gets killed after 1 tower is gone, if that much, cause making it too strong would be incredibly unbalanced.
Trundle is a superior tower pusher in that he has higher attack speed. Given a Trinity Force (or a lich bane if thats how you roll), or a dragon, or a thrall, or a minion wave. I'd argue morde is a superior pusher in general due to his ability to make the minion wave a non factor once he hits level 8 or so. And regarding ghost dragon I thought the same way you did, but ill be damned if controlling that dragon and his AOE autoattack isnt fun as balls. Dont say shit about ghost dragon mother******. Hes my homie straight outta compton. I feel that morde is in general less safe than trundle, but calling Trundle a superior tower pusher is kinda disingenuous. I feel the reason trundle gets a rap as a pusher is because he bullies the opponent out of lane and then pushes with his lousy pushing abilities, then kills your tower with his slightly above average attack speed (and damage he stole from your minions). Its that bullying that enables the tower kill though. Hes not exactly master Yi in terms of tower pushing. For that matter I'd consider Mordekaiser well above Trundle's league in terms of pushing. Mordekaiser chills with the truly obnoxious pushers. Like Master Yi and Heimerdinger. Or Viktor.
Elikain (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-03-12T10:22:01.710+0000) > > He could be a real Blight Knight^^ Mordekaiser's strategic niche is not a **replacement ADC**. His niche is **soul enslavement.** Meaning his mere presence (and killing/assisting kills on ult) is enough to turn the enemy ranks against them. His most notorious non-ultimate move is Dragonforce, where he enslaves the soul of the Dragon and uses it to assert lane dominance, push towers and zone them off defending objectives or simply winning fights unfairly. That mark was hit when Riot updated his kit however, his damage and tankiness (and free exp) was massively overtuned. Even without trading a single blow with you in lane, he was leveling as a solo laner, had a really good clear, was getting too tanky by overstating people and therefore just dying to him once or simply getting sent to base meant you definitely lost the lane and dragons. Then all the nerfs came (which were deserved) but i think Riot nerfed him too much, to the point of not even being a threat because he is not scary close range without any major items and now you're the one getting harassed by going into a ranged matchup, no matter who it is. You simply aren't tanky enough to deal with aggression this early and items you're getting aren't stopping the enemy ADC (who buys a BF Sword) from constantly hitting you. Now you're the one having to wait minions to be pushed to your tower if you don't want to get poked for free and laning phase is incredibly boring and unsafe, even to the point of being afraid of getting roamed/tp'd on or ganked because of the lack of escapes. _**His kit has high risks involved and his playstyle doesn't reward him enough for taking them, outside of one good use of his ult to enslave a Dragon or the most fed opponent and use his stats in your advantage.**_ Changes? I think his kit right now is on solid ground but his damage is just not good. I think that keeping his IMMENSE 3rd-hit-almost-one-shot-Q should have been kept as a reminder that if you want to harass Morde, you better be ready to die as well or at least be backed up by a jungler, a proper disable, or having support who can make the damage go away rather than him being forced to face tank harassment and hope he won't feed or get pushed around by everyone because they're range. Also, his attack speed on active Q is pretty slow, he could benefit on doubling his AS on active Q (to smash faces faster) and he should never be 1v1'd if you don't have the proper tools to kite him. This is exactly how i imagine him being, a quite scary dude who you should not take lightly, even if he is so damn slow. Once he finds a way to get to you, you're like putty in his hands.
>This is exactly how i imagine him being, a quite scary dude who you should not take lightly, even if he is so damn slow. Once he finds a way to get to you, you're like putty in his hands. I feel like mid and late game though, that is exactly what he does. Especially with the right items, Morde can realistically 2v1 a support and marksman late game if he gets the drop on them (yeah that is really rare and hard to do, but he still kills them all by himself then goes to push a lane). Mordekaiser's early game could use a buff I agree, but I think it is ok that the early game is the time where the dark lord is weakest and must consolidate his power. I feel like his early game is noticeably weak, but I really do feel this is in exchange for his mid and late game.
: Mordekaiser's rework should tackle the problem of him not having a strategic "niche"
Mordekaiser's Niche is as a team's core. Mordekaiser is a brutal damage threat that becomes harder to kill the better his damage is. Moreso than Garen, Darius, anyone short of Nasus, Mordekaiser ruins the goddamn day of anyone near him provided he has finished at least 2 items. I'd argue he already IS the drain bruiser you want. He doesnt steal stats anymore because that strength was put into just killing people. His W doesnt give stats anymore because it just straight up steals health. His ult also steals health. Mordekaiser is a conquerer. He conquers everything he walks towards. Everything that stands against him stands briefly. (seriously. The only things that really oppose morde without help are specialized duelists like vayne or warwick, or equally scary late gamers like Nasus.) Yes mordekaiser has to work some to make this fantasy a reality, but do you want to be just handed your wins? You wanna become undead Sauron you gotta farm it up. His early game vulnerability does perhaps clash with this all powerful fantasy, but he has to be vulnerable somewhere. Also new Mordekaiser is so much less feast or famine than old mordekaiser that it is almost a joke. I've read many of your Mordekaiser threads and I haven't been able to get a solid idea of what you want out of morde besides 1. Better. and 2. Solo laner. Can you help me better understand your wants for mordekaiser? Specifically with what you are willing to NOT have to get it? Cause I straight up think current Morde is a work of art. I wish he had a more complex model and more voice work but the kit is kinda beautiful. Ive even over time fallen for how he makes his support his lacky through their interactions. It feels hella Sauron/Eredin man.
: I would play the crap out of this Morde!!!! Stealing stats is a cool idea that Trundle sorta has but Morde would provide less CC & tower pushing in exchange for personal tankiness & creating 4v6 scenarios making him **UNIQUE**!!!! It would be a lot better than the steaming pile CertainlyT shit out for us like a 3rd grade art project.
In what horrid realm do you want to make Morde a worse pusher than trundle? He already does create 4v6 senarios. He also has disgustingly high objective control once he gets going. When mordes team takes dragon, Morde also takes all the front teir towers. His single target damage on stationary targets is also really really good, meaning he is rather likely to get that ghost dragon.
: Aatrox's primary problem's him having so much untapped potential
>Aatrox's often regarded as one of the worst champions ever released Dude Aatrox has a lot of problems, but this is the first of a ton of hyperbole in your post. I wouldnt even put him in the top seven worst champs. I think it would be fair to say he has one of the worst _remaining_ kits, because most offenders worse than him have been reworked.
: For everyone asking for S2 back: You happy now? Hm?
Yes. Though the morde is better here than in season 2. {{champion:82}} For that matter champion balance is better than it was back then. I still loved season 2
: Yeah, you aren't incorrect with those points. Kog'Maw has been good for a while, he just needs the right team and player. I never thought of having Leona paired with Mordekaiser... Hmm... I feel if you have the right coordination, you could easily pull that off.
It is purely an all-in lane but its a pretty sweet all in. When the lane works or even breaks even, you pretty much have to play "I cant see me loving nobody but you" with your support. Its lovely.
: I don't disagree with you there, he's in a wonderful spot right now. The sustained damage, build-up-to-massive-damage approach is the best for Mordekaiser, and much easier to balance around, in my opinion. Riot wants to keep his duo-lane identity in tact, but the meta just doesn't allow two melee characters in the bot lane, especially when the carry has no form of cc or mobility (or even slows). Almost every adc played right now has a slow or dash/jump/displacement. Mordekaiser has none of that, which makes him super heavily reliant on his support, as well as making him vulnerable to ganks. In top lane, that doesn't matter as much since your opponent will also have to get close to deal damage. But bot lane requires more range in order to survive, farm, poke, and trade effectively. Just my thoughts here.
Hmm. I feel like his niche will swing around again. Meta comes and meta goes. People yelled at me for thinking kog maw was good 4 weeks ago. Meta is just meta man. Being in a lane that gives him access to dragon lets mordekaiser get pretty stupid if his team focuses on getting him a dragon. Also, and maybe this is just my deep low silver high bronze heart's love of those two champs, but Leona Mordekaiser is a fun lane. Leona has a long enough CC chain to make up for morde, and they absolutely complement each other. Morde nails every proc of leonas passive while getting a speed boost in. The enemy can do nothing for 1 and a half seconds while leona holds them there and morde bullys their body and soul. Stacking the Q on minions before leona stuns is tricky, but if you pull it off its a goddamn death sentence. And keeping away from leona is much harder than keeping away from blitzcrank. And if you fail to keep away from leona, you have failed to keep away from morde. :D Im a little drunk. I really like that lane.
Kuroi86 (NA)
: I'd say the biggest issue with the rework is that it didn't fix the fundamental problems that Morde had, it simply tried to side step them. And in doing so, they made Morde so niche that you would literally have to build an entire team comp just around him and hope the enemy team doesn't pick one of the dozen options that could potentially screw you in lane. But this is just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
I feel like he doesnt take an entire team built around him. He just needs (wants) a marksman in any position besides bot. And preferably either an annoyingly defensive or brutally aggressive support. For there to be champions that fill the farming space in bot lane besides marksman makes me very happy. More happy than I can adequately express right here. I feel mordekaiser opens up the idea of what is a carry. God knows he deals enough damage to carry when he farms. He just isnt a marksman. And yeah they didnt fix the fundamental problems, but anything that seriously hit his kit would have met massive blowback. They kept his kit more or less intact (new Q rules) and gave him a lane partner. Short of an entirely new champion, which they didnt do, I feel they have put out a better morde than frankly I ever expected. Admittedly forcing any champ to any position blows. But I feel they really knocked it out of the park allowing mordekaiser bot. The only stickling part is the XP gain passive on W. I can understand why its there but I still find it kind of obnoxious.
Kuroi86 (NA)
: Fun with Morde was when your stats were high and you could wreck someone. The "rework" didn't fix this, though I do applaud the attempt. They were trying to introduce more elements of thought into trades and what not, they simply picked a method that people weren't fine with trying to go with.
What part? Other than he can't really solo lane I find almost nothing of value was lost. Then again, I find the ability to solo lane to be criminally overrated. Hes plainly more fun than he used to be. Id argue morde's rework was more successful than either of skarners. Hes not a perfect champion but the morde we have presently beats all previous versions in league of legends.
: Those are just two aspects of new Mordekaiser that are pleasing, but don't make up for other parts of Mordekaiser that needs to be changed in order for him to function as a no CC top lane Juggernaut, but while also being fair to fight against and have more decision aspects of playing against Mordekaiser besides "don't let him get close". I agree with you though, the Q and R changes that introduced the Dragon and third hit on Q feel really nice, but I feel like he needs changes in some other areas as well.
Does Morde need changes? Sure. Id still argue hes in the best place he has been for the entirety of my league of legends career. (Since season 2)
Kuroi86 (NA)
: Honestly, Riot sort of had the right idea with Morde, they just didn't execute it right. At the moment, there's honestly too few factors to consider when playing as or against Morde. He's more of a stat check champ, that's never fun to try and balance. I've pondered some changes on Morde, though who knows when Morde will see the level of work he needs to put him into a good spot.
Morde has ALWAYS been a stat check champion. Hes usually been a stat check of the worst kind. Am I absolutely out of my mind for thinking mordekaiser is in the best place he has been since.....ever? I started playing in season 2. Was there a magical time before then when morde was fun? Cause I was always angry and disappointed with morde until his rework came out.
: I agree.I miss old Morde.
I love new morde. ;_; Old morde pissed me off. He built nothing but AP and vaguely hoped his enemies were dumb enough to let him get fed. I mean he felt good once you got fed but until then he kinda had a "nothing" kit. He still has the nothing kit but a second person to interact with in lane makes him more interesting to play, and I really really reallly really really like the new Q sound. The cadence, the damage on the third hit. It feels really good mang. Also I'm a fan of Ghost dragon. I thought it was going to be dumb as hell but ghost dragon is awesome.
Gentzer (EUW)
: Would I be right in saying Morde is played mostly in solo lanes right now anyway? It's obvious the community wants solo lane Kaiser. I mean, it matches his fantasy. A dominating will, subjugating you under necromantic powers and a massive bloody mace as Mordekaiser crushes his enemies with his own force of will. That doesn't really work when you have to add: "as long as someone holds his hand" to the end.
I found it to work once I realized that the support is purely there to keep the enemies from escaping, and going bot means that mordekaiser has 2 victims/targets. I also found that morde is one of the few botlaners who really gets to treat his support like a lackey once the game gets going.
: Hey Riot, when you give Mordekaiser the rework he deserves
What do you specifically find to be the problem with Mordekaiser as a duo laner? Personally I thought it sounded dumb until I tried it. I realized that my team is nothing but the support network in place to let mordekaiser do his thing. They are just another class of minions. that CC shit for him to squash. Why wouldn't Mordekaiser have a Valet with him bot lane? He runs everything everywhere he goes, it sorta starting feeling right to me.
: Thought we were talkin about support Tahm Kench, forgot he goes top too.
Vel Koz is a support. :P Kidding aside I was just talking more about the slow in general. Not specifically as a support. A 70% slow aint that hot. What makes Tahm scary is that hes gonna lick you again in 4 seconds and that time is probably gonna stun you. The thing is that he has to work way harder for this than the other person does to avoid it. Tahm kench isnt exactly amumu, or even leona, in that he tends to lack straight damage and engage power to really make the most of his moves usually.
: His Q still slows 70% and his E is unaffected by it lol
His E is a strictly defensive move....and it still got nerfed a few patches ago. Also, a 70% slow at that range that gets minion blocked isnt really all that great. It would need to deal serious damage to be worthwhile, and Tahm doesnt have that kind of damage on his kit to make a slow like that work for him much. {{champion:68}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:107}}
: The issue is this season AD has great access to armor pen which does a hell of a lot of damage. (armor pen amplifies damage by a lot more than most people realize). There is {{item:3147}} {{item:3156}} and {{item:3142}} all of these have good universal stats for offensive AD champions with solid build paths. Meanwhile ap has {{item:3151}} {{item:3020}} for flat magic pen. So if you don't have a lot of dot or very low cd poke the passive for {{item:3151}} is all but useless so you can't really grab that. so beyond Sorc's there is no real access to flat mpen. So most mages are stuck with just a void staff which has 80 ap, 35% mpen and nothing else don't get me wrong 35% mpen is great but AD has 3 %arpen items {{item:3071}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} which all have decent stats beyond just their %arpen and fantastic passives. And when we look into pseudo defensive items AD has it better there as well. The standard item for ad vs ap is {{item:3156}} on top of the good stats the passive gives an anti burst shield and a lot of free stats while being fairly affordable as a first or second item meanwhile for ap vs ad you have {{item:3157}} which has meh stats at best 100 ap is solid but 45 armor is not a lot especially with the current prevalence of armor pen. Its one redeeming factor is the active but it can be hard to know when use if you don't have a very linear pattern for it like {{champion:25}} {{champion:85}} and the like. Often the active just screws you over as often as it helps. It is also prohibitively expensive More over AD has use for a great variety of stats than AP. AD can use crit if they are basic attack based which basically doubles their damage for free. They have life steal and there is even an ad spell vamp item. AP however gets their spell vamp nerfed into the ground because a few fringe cases can openly abuse the stat ({{champion:8}} you ruin everything). AP and AD can both use CDR AP has a little more use for it than ad but in the case of AD VS AP assassins they both use it about the same. That being said AD has a much wider Access to CDR and has it on items that are good beyond just CDR. AP has basically 2 items that you have to use and if you would rather have flat mana as opposed to mana regen then you are shit outta luck when it comes to CDR. I think that for AP champions to be able to compete again there needs to be a better AP vs AD defensive item than {{item:3157}}, more flat mpen (they could make a few more items that build out of {{item:3136}}) and better access to cdr for ap fighters and assassins that dont like {{item:3165}} or {{item:3174}} TLDR: AD champions have experienced major power creep in their itemization while AP itemization has stayed the same or even been nerfed.
Good post. I love this season and I still admit this is a great post.
: LeBlanc I've noticed tends to have high KDA, but low win-rate. Presumably because a fed LeBlanc is basically only capable of blowing up one person and then not much else.
Its partially a holdover from old school season 2 league. Leblanc was a straight up early game champ. Her whole thing was that she dumpstered almost the entire cast of the game in lane and could kill anyone in a roam....but she was almost literally incapable of carrying a game.
Knoyle (NA)
: In a trade Zhonya's isn't going to help you, if not kill you. If your team is still in their lane and not even on the way then how is the stasis even an advantage?
in a trade a good zhonyas will win you fights you should have lost. It is harder to do than Sterreks Ill admit (arguably a testement to riot trying to have "more active" items that dont just get forgotten on the hotbar. Like most can admit has happened to zhonyas more often than id like to admit. The difference is that Sterriks will win you a fight and look big and flashy doing it. Zhonyas makes you do an active, which is nothing to sneer at. remembering a seventh spell on a 90 second cooldown is a pain for most players. Especially because zhonyas is reactive. its not like youmuus or hydra where you just mash it when you go in.
: > [{quoted}](name=YCitizenSnipsY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s4HWmBa9,comment-id=00030000000100010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-16T06:11:39.446+0000) > > Yes, most of those champions you listed can engage from 1000+ range. I don't get what your trying to say here. All the assassins have close to if not 1000 range gap closers and the mages have spells over 1000, really bad list tbh. Please tell more more about how kat, ekko, akali, ahri, kassadin, and kennen can all engage from 1000+ range without using an ability more than twice, and how the other mages have several long range spells to classify themselves as long range.
ah ah ah...dont get picky and choosy. TF, and LeBlac James, and Rumble in the Bronx, and Fizz, and arguably Ahri can all engage at near or just over 1000 range. Dont be like that man. Have a discussion, not a QQ fest.
: Why can mids abuse the support role but supports are nerfed from playing mid?
The reason supports get nerfed when they go mid is that often going mid covers up for strengths in their kit that were held down in bot lane. And the riot answer is that often these supports are absolutely no fun to play against mid. To be fair, you ever fought a mid janna on a patch where she was strong mid? {{champion:40}} Its like you dont even get to play the game once she hits level 5 and has some AP. She just instakills your wave under tower from outside your range, then either roams or repeats. Its ugly and really needed nerfed. I wish janna was still allowed to be strong mid, but they'd have to do something like gut the minion and monster damage on Q.
: His kit has a lot in it, so I'm hesitant to say anything, but it really doesn't feel impacting when you properly manage your blade to time team peels, or pulling your blade through an enemy champion. So much of his power is loaded into his passive, base Q, and E. If it turns out that Shen is either not feeling appropriate in the return for his effects, or is under-performing (this one is less likely IMO), could the heal from his old Vorpal blade be returned? Having it be triggered by pulling the blade through enemies (Apply heal to Shen), or allies (to apply heal to effected allies). Would also serve to add some poke insurance to his support play.
>So much of his power is loaded into his passive, base Q, and E. But is that really so different from what it used to be. I feel like his E is the same as it ever was (better nuke) and his Q functions like his old passive used to. His W doesnt feel as impactful as his other spells but it is really powerful and unique. I'd argue within the rest of the kit it works well. Then again, I've been a shen fan who hated playing his actual kit since season 2. I feel like shens new kit has great themes of equilibrium and push and pull. I feel much more ninja like than the old kit. Lay traps and attacking when least expected, while still having the brick house long form dueling power of Shen we love. >If it turns out that Shen is either not feeling appropriate in the return for his effects, or is under-performing (this one is less likely IMO), could the heal from his old Vorpal blade be returned? Having it be triggered by pulling the blade through enemies (Apply heal to Shen), or allies (to apply heal to effected allies). I miss that heal man, but the new shield is just nuts. They break even to similar results, but give shen solid weaknesses in that damage sticks to him well if he doesnt shield well (until he buys warmogs at least....)
: I'm level 5 on Xin Zhao, and I even agree that this is stupid.
Can I have some more context on what you are talking about? I tried Xin on a whim last night and found him to become complete bullshit once i had devourers and guinsoos. It was dumb how much damage I was dealing. Are there PBE buffs that you are referring to? and the new Assassin's Blade item that is supposed to come out?
: "NO NO NO! Look at this mess! You couldn't wait one more second before stabbing them in the back?!" {{champion:35}} "They tripped over their own feet trying to escape and fell on my knife, that's the joke!" "We were meant to assassinate them in _4/4_ time; their final scream was off beat YOU UNCULTURED IMBECILE!" {{champion:35}} ". . . I don't think you appreciate irony."
I'm not gonna lie, in my head canon Jhin has mad respect for Shaco's professional work as a comedian and thinks he is absolutely hilarious, albiet maybe lowbrow. I like to imagine him speaking of the orgins of clown in performance art. I imagine Jhin is among the few who can truly appreciate shaco's work. Also a good shaco player IS an artist. A hateful artist.
Ramuhdo (NA)
: 'twas a joke, my friend. I mean no offence. Lucian is one of those champions I really liked seeing as a newcomer, but don't like playing because I'm too poor at mechanics to do so.
no problemo. Twas in serious critique mode so to speak from my other long winded post. :P Hell, I think I only posted the first time because I laughed. I did again just now re-reading it.
Ramuhdo (NA)
: > Segregation would still be an issue (not in anyway saying that rampant racism isn't still a problem,) women would not be allowed to vote and so on. Gonna home in on this argument before I finish the wall of text. Gonna point out that ending segregation and campaigning for women's rights wasn't 'change for the sake of change'. That was 'change for the sake of fairness and equality'. Comparing it in this way is comparing apples to pears; arbitrarily making Katarina and Riven a couple feels more like changing it up for the sake of having something different (and indeed, that's how your post came across) than trying to effect a change in the world for the betterment of a people. None of the examples you provide are clear cut, "Let's change it up because we can". I'll grant cussing on TV (though that may also be a shift in culture and a sense of 'censoring is too much effort/not real enough'), but the rest hardly seem changes done for the sake of it. Again, taking the Katarina/Garen ship, dismantling it and introducing a Riven/Katarina ship because it'd "grab attention", "be something different" and it's "more interesting" feels more arbitrary than campaigning for women's right to vote because "women should have as much right as men to determine who represents them". > (primarily in this case the straight male gamer.) Please don't play the privilege card. I know you haven't, but this reads like a complaint that straight male gamers are being specifically catered to. Even if it's true, that's not the fault of straight male gamers. They can't help being a major demographic in the world of gaming. Levying it against them as some argument that they must feel bad about being who they are is unfair and unjust. > Garen x Katarina feels arbitrary because they're of opposing genders Summarising you there, but I'm totally with you on this. Garen x Katarina is something I'm struggling to justify myself, and I would love to see that relationship more fleshed out than it currently is. There are some teases, some hints, and on the whole it's a "fun little thing" so long as you don't really think about it. The only sword I can see that Garen wants to stab Katarina with is a two foot long solid steel blade of justice right through her skull. That's not romantic, that's horrifying. Would really love to see Riot take this beyond a rivalry that blossoms into love 'because we say so'. > I mean, to bring up a point stated by a previous poster, look how long it took for them to get a human champion that _wasn't _white. Agreed here, and even going further. Females and males in League are heavily stereotyped with just about all women being between 20 and 30 looks-wise (no one's going to convince me Kat looks middle-aged) and they're all attractive in some way or the other. Meanwhile, most males are middle-aged, and then have beards, moustaches, are bald or have very long hair. Ezreal is one of few male champions who completely stands out, despite looking like a pretty normal adolescent guy. It's because League doesn't really have adolescent guys. We could do with a hot looking guy (because I swear, adolescent guys can look hot, too!), even a pretty boy (pretty boy != long hair, Riot!). A young child like Annie is fine, too, though arguably we have Amumumu. Then we could use a middle-aged woman. One past her prime but still solid. Not necessarily an old crone. Champion diversity can also extend to how they look and feel. Sometimes you just want to be "that old one" who shows the younger generation that **no, you whippersnappers aren't the only ones relevant in battle**. Instead we get hot young women, rugged middle-aged men and a black person whose ult is a driveby shooting. We may not agree on specifics, but diversity in lore can only enrichen it. I welcome the day Twisted Fate and Graves discover deep romantic feelings, Diana and Lux go on a date and Bard finally woos that special hot air balloon. I just don't think breaking up Garen/Katarina to replace them with Riven/Katarina is the way to go.
>black person whose ult is a driveby shooting. Thats a cheap shot. Luciens ult is cool as all hell. Also we got another black person who's ult is rewinding time. It took too long to get a black guy champ, but boiling lucien down to a stereotype just because he uses guns isn't fair.
: Riot likes overused romantic tropes and narratives. Heres something I'd consider a bit more unique
_TLDR: I prefer Garen liking Kat, but Kat seeing a women is perfectly acceptable. I do not think that the women is Riven. Also, I'm a Garen fan and am offended at the character assassination of everyone in your post who wasn't Katarina._ I have a few misgivings about your post. Largely and most primarily is the lack of understanding towards the other champions in league. It is crystal clear that you have a deep abiding love of the champion Katarina. The issue is that it is painfully obvious that you do not have this same love and respect for the other characters. >You have some like Karma who may insist that they do nothing, that they rebuild and that peace is ultimately the answer. However you have those like Irelia and Yasuo filled with rage and hatred who think that the only way to ensure that peace survives is to remove those who will always threaten it by attacking them while they attack themselves. Cue second event involving an Ionian Civil War, if you so choose. Yasuo is in exile. He holds no clout in Ionia. He can no more argue in Ionia for war than Riven could in Noxus for peace. Also, Karma's character arc was finding an ability to accept violence for Ionia's ends. **"Never again will I sit idle." "Peace. No matter the cost** I'll admit this is nitpicking, but it is an example of the mindset that I feel is the issue with your argument. On the one hand, I would not necessarily call RivenxKat any more or less valid than GarenXKat. Riven is a deeply damaged individual, limiting emotional intimicy in her current state. From what I understand it is actually part of her appeal. Meanwhile, retconning in that Kat and Riven dated before the Ionia conflict (and Riven losing it) would go a fairly large way to tying everyone in Noxus _too_ close together. It in turn links riven to Cass and Talon and I feel would really put a dent in the whole Exile thing she has going. Not to mention it cuts a narrative tie between Noxus and Demacia. I personally liked the obscure subplot where leblanc impersonated J4 and Swain likely killed/dissappeared Kats dad. Part of the reason GarenXKat even started as a ship was due to their mutual nature as paragons of their societies. While it does result in slander to imply that either would sacrafice their position for a position on the other's genitals; I'd argue this is part of what makes it work. At least from the side of a garen fan. {{champion:86}} Garen is a paragon of Demacia. But he can't be anything else. Ever. People always want what they cannot ever have, and while I never really got the impression Kat likes Garen, I can totally see the appeal from Garen's point of view. Yeah it wouldn't work out....thats not gonna stop Garen from wanting it. I doubt he is smart enough to fully put something like that aside. I totally get it. Also, I don't really see Garen "being married off" when his position as a symbol and weapon is too valuable. Finally, Garen isn't particularly bright. He just isn't. **"WHAT WE DO IS RIGHT!"** The idea that Garen might secretly want to throw it all away and run away with the hot redheaded girl he has a crush on really makes him compelling to me. The idea that Garen would attack Katarina with a greatsword while also harboring feelings for her makes sense when we accept that most champions (and certainly both Garen and Kat....and Riven. And Yasuo. ) are violent people well accustomed to battle. Garen's place as Demacia's Strength is only as strong as his own will. And the unfortunate rotten kernal at the core of Demacian culture is that they aspire to inhuman standards that people just cant meet. The thought of Garen doing the Demacia thing because _he has to_ while constantly burying his own desire to leave that life, while confronting his own guilt over these desires? Then working them out on the battlefield? **FOR THE CAUSE** Its sorta like the superman appeal. The guy has a lot of weight on his shoulders. Unlike Superman, Garen is just a man. A strong man with conviction, and not enough brains to realize the full situation. I like that about Garen. He _might_ have found Mad Love. That terrible self destructive kind of love you cant turn away from. Harly QuinnXJoker love. Mad Love. The best kind. Also, marrying Fiora off to Garen would be a crime. I'd sooner ship FioraXJarvan. The idea of Fiora being willing to marry zat spinning buffoon 'as got to 'ze a joke. I can't see her dating someone so dumb, and I can't see her family marrying her off really. Not when shes the one who kicks all of the ass. Who is gonna make her marry someone? Her dad? Fiora aint got time for dating. She has duels to win. That said I now can totally see Fiora sleeping with Garen out of bordom and than being frustrated that he keeps calling her. That got kind of long winded. Also I'm intoxicated. Did that make any sense? I greatly respect your love of this fiction. Indeed it warms my heart. Though it seems to me you really want RivenXKat to be a thing, and it feels like your case was built to that end, rather than exploring the characters and coming to that conclusion organically.
: Well - you've certainly put a significant amount of effort into this, and no matter my opinions, I respect you for that. First off, two things - first, **I am not on the narrative team** so I have next to no influence on these subjects. Consider me as influential as any other player in this regard, and ignore the redness of my name if you can :) Secondly, I do not ship Katarina/Garen. Or indeed anyone else - it's generally just not something I do. However, I do realize that it has great import for many people. As an aside, just so you're aware, you generally use "not put it passed Demacia" when it should actually be "not put it past Demacia" etc. Just a typo I've seen both in this post here, and in the Tumblr post you linked. I hope you'll not take offence - but as a writer I hope you'll not mind me trying to correct this :D Now - to the body of the idea itself! Personally, I think you have done a lot of thinking about this, and I agree with you up to a point where I find a weakness in the argument. My issue is that an awful lot of the time, humans do indeed do things that are contrary to A) their better interests, and B) what they are stridently and very vocally against. I've lost count of the times we've heard of politicians or religious leaders who publically decry certain people or behaviors, while secretly fraternizing with, or exhibiting, that self same thing. Whether it's the secretly homosexual homophobe, or the family-values adulterer, or the anti-immigration warrior with the illegally emigrated lover (and often, child). It happens all the time. So when you argue that Garen who is the ideals of Demacia made flesh, would NEVER EVER EVER contravene those ideals to fraternize with the enemy, I am reminded of just these sorts of hypocrites. When you say that Katarina is too true a Noxian, and too wise, to have lustful feelings for a dirty Demacian, I think of these sorts of hypocrites. Happens all the time. Now, what I'm not doing is suggesting that that is what's going on with Garen and Katarina - again, I remind you that I neither ship them together, nor ship them with anyone else. It's not outwidth the bounds of possibility, as you are so strongly stating. Now, to my second point - replacing the Katarina/Garen ship with Katarina/Riven. Well, I think you've probably seen that Riot is not best loved for some of the changes they've made to well loved champion backgrounds. And as you well know, the relationships between characters is one of the most emotionally volitile that you could change. You yourself have pointed out how vocal the proponents of the K/G ship is - to change that to anything else would outrage those players for taking away something they liked and enjoyed about their personalities. Doesn't matter if you think it's wrong - those players to a certain extent, have the high ground as 'being there first'. I have no problem with having ships with other champions being introduced - of any particular orientation you care to mention (Bard/Hot Air Balloon 4 life) but to change an established one is dangerous waters. I'm rather nonplussed with your suggestion of changing it to a homosexual relationship as an attention grabbing gimmick - I don't really think that's appropriate for anyone. (Also, I wasn't a fan of Sense8's distasteful introduction of some of their couples - I do not need to see Martha Jones toss a dripping sex toy to the floor, thank you very much.) Maybe you were using that because you thought that it was what Riot wanted to hear - that we're all about grabbing a headline or two. Well, I really hope we're not. There are surprisingly few relationships in League's roster at the moment, and for most champions the public nature of their sexuality just isn't as important to them as how they fight, where they came from, and what's driving them. Just as I'm sure for most people, they'd rather be measured on their achievements and personality, rather than who they happen to love. Lastly, of course, fan-fiction and player-canon will live forever. If you choose not to like the Katarina/Garen ship, then no-one can touch your particular re-imagining of Katarina's lovelife. You can ship her with anyone, no-one, or some never-before-considered variant and there will be fellow players who will applaud your vision and likely 'ship it. Riot isn't destroying that when they tease anything else. You can choose to believe that those rumors are simply the witterings of doe-eyed tavern-goers and tup'penny pantomimes, and that only you have the real insight into what's going on behind the scenes. You won't like that as an answer, of course :)
Kats dad. Knife Fighting tank with a bushy european noble beard. Think about it. Dude taught talon and kat how to fight. Think about it riot.
Meddler (NA)
: I'd like to avoid anything that really changes the feel of the cast like missile speed, since that then forces you to relearn timings etc partway through the game, often for only a brief period (ranked 2nd or 3rd). As above mana reduction's something I've been hesitant about, but very interested in other people's takes on. W pick up range increase is an interesting one actually. Does have a bit of scaryness in terms of red/blue steals, other than that though might be appropriate. Now that I think about it red/blue might also just end up immediately turning around and leashing back if pulled much further. I'm personally a bit stumped on this one. Was originally hoping that putting the knockup back on would be appropriate given other changes to Syndra and the game since we removed it. None of the other stuff I've looked into's hit the mark though, hence suggestions particularly welcomed.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lq63Tvvw,comment-id=0004000000020000,timestamp=2015-08-21T05:29:22.738+0000) > > I'd like to avoid anything that really changes the feel of the cast like missile speed, since that then forces you to relearn timings etc partway through the game, often for only a brief period (ranked 2nd or 3rd). > > As above mana reduction's something I've been hesitant about, but very interested in other people's takes on. > > W pick up range increase is an interesting one actually. Does have a bit of scaryness in terms of red/blue steals, other than that though might be appropriate. Now that I think about it red/blue might also just end up immediately turning around and leashing back if pulled much further. > > I'm personally a bit stumped on this one. Was originally hoping that putting the knockup back on would be appropriate given other changes to Syndra and the game since we removed it. None of the other stuff I've looked into's hit the mark though, hence suggestions particularly welcomed. Did you consider letting syndra pick up all minions in a small aoe instead of just one? It feels really really good throwing stuff, even if it didn't deal more damage, just being able to move a whole jungle camp, or actually shove the wave all the way back. The downside is that there isn't much enemies can do when syndra tosses their minion wave in the river, but I feel like that is ok in its own way.
: Yeah I had to read it twice to get it.
in hindsight I appreciate the balls on riot to have a comic in which a poor kid gets shot by a weathy guy claiming self defense. That strikes me as rather poignant in the US currently. Though it took me sleeping on it.
: > [{quoted}](name=FauxSchizzle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=617LLUV8,comment-id=0004000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-21T22:31:37.015+0000) > > Thanks! can't guarantee I'll reply often, but I do read. You are being heard. How heard? I've seen you in two threads, and most of your attention is in the thread praising your work. I'm sorry, but someone has to be "that guy" and right now, I'm being that guy. Okay, I'm done being "that guy" FauxSchizzle, you can relax :P I'm really excited for Ekko, and this comic made me even more hyped for his release. Ekko's an interesting champion, and with more backing to his release video, I'm heartbroken at it. But if I may - why did you decide to make the whistling man a Piltoverian dude who dies in seconds, instead of this overarching bad? You had a great opportunity to add in this Zaunite serial killer who preys on orphans, or even "C" from Piltover, Caitlyn's elusive nemesis. Why didn't you decide to add a final nail to the coffin, by making Ekko fail to find the man? Would have been a great driving force behind his entire story - find the man who killed Ajuna. Cliche, but it would have been fantastic.
to be fair, Ekko strikes me as someone who is really really hard to get away from, what with the whole time magic thing. Had he failed to find the guy I would have called B.S. He was able to run to his friend upwards of 80 times just to find the quickest route.
: Ekko didn't actually kill him. When the Z-Drive got shot Ekko had to make a choice. Kill the guy or be with his friend in his last moments. Ekko chose to be with his friend.
I was actually unsure of that. It was pretty unclear in those last two pages how it went. I thought he did both.
: ~~Was Cait in the gang too? I thought it was Jinx; Cait is born and raised Piltover IIRC (or did they retcon that too?)~~
Cait was not.
: > [{quoted}](name=Engrailed,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b00030006,timestamp=2015-05-17T19:01:37.941+0000) > > I think your struggle with the argument might be because you're not looking at the right context in which the comment was made. Your Harry Potter point is valid and totally fair about story-pacing and appropriately timed reveals of previously unknown pieces of information. These are exciting developments within the life-time of a story. > > But currently, the stories of ALL league characters are stuck in their infancy. Characters are introduced but then nothing much happens with them. Sometimes the story of a character is advanced through the introduction of another champion (Sivir via Azir, for instance). Riot has released a series of "Chapter 1's" and really started to develop some tension in the world (Freljord War, Shadow Isles vs Bilgewater, Shurima reborn, Void encroachment), but then that's it. Yeah, I think you've highlighted where my disconnect is here. Much of what we've done has been "Chapter 1" stuff, but there is little confidence that we'll do Chapter 2 - that much is clear from the other posts here. I don't feel that way personally though. For me, I see a lot of Chapter 1 stuff going on, but I don't think it's done yet. And in my head, it makes perfect sense to say "let's finish the first chapter on everything, and then we can go forward". I don't actually want to read the next part of the Freljord story right now, because I don't have the framework of the rest of the world to evaluate it in. That way, when Ashe/Sejuani/Lissandra wins the war, I can discuss the impact that will have on the rest of the world.
We got neither. We have always gotten neither man. League lore has always been a joke since season 2. MORE MORE!!!! Until the void of our desire to see more of the champions we love is filled, nothing you guys do will be good enough. Thats all there really is to it.
: Anyone else feel that Ekko's kit just doesn't feel right?
reposting from a nested comment, because I sort of think I might be on to something. The style of trial and error from the video is what they tried to make show in his gameplay, it just is hard to see because they had to turn his kit into a mess to do it. Replaying the same fight over and getting better at it each time. _Think about it_. (Also heavy theory ahead. I haven't played him) The way Ekko seems designed to play is that he has a ton of tools that are easily avoided or accounted for, but he can in turn outplay his opponent with. When playing Ekko, you play the oppoenent, learn how they play, then use your tools to make every step they take a bad idea. You learn their tells and rhythm then use your tools to beat the tar out of them and punishing them for things they do on instinct. (_They dodge the boomerang...but stumbled into the stun because they reflexively dodged left, then eat the return boomerang and more._) His ult also gives him windows to make otherwise bad trades to learn, scout, or even "train" his opponent to behave a certain way. It might be a stretch but I see the makings of a beautiful kit here. It is a bit of a mess but I sort of see what they were going for. Heck, what he does in the video is fight the same guy over and over with increasingly worse odds. Isn't that exactly what losing lane looks like? And I suspect Ekko's kit has the tools to figure his opponent out, then turn it around with smart playing.
: > I also think the healing on the ultimate is implied by the video - he was certainly a bit stronger when he got up than just before. Not perfect, but he looked a little better. That's a good point; he basically got his arm broken at one point, and he got up again and could still swing his weapon. His arm was sore, but it wasn't broken anymore. > There is a 0.2 ratio on his Q's first damage instance and a 0.6 on its return One note about his Q that I came up with while developing strategy for him; you can use your E to get up close to your opponent and make the second part of his Q more difficult to dodge, especially if you proc your passive off a minion or something right before you E in so you're more able to run around your opponent appropriately (additionally your Q can slow them while you do this). > What I don't like: The missing health damage on his auto attacks I'm just glad it will help me last hit better, lol. It's only there once the enemy is below 30% HP, also, so it doesn't seem that bad, he's not old AD Bruiser Fizz, lol (damage is less as well). He's an AP champion that relies a bit on his AAs, given his passive, so I think it's fine; Diana has an AoE 0.8 AP ratio on every third auto, Fizz has his W still. I do think it might be excessive given the bonus damage he gains from his passive; I was under the impression he'd have noticeably less damage on his kit given the utility he offers, but it seems a bit high at the moment; I'll have to try him out and see. What do you see his counterplay being? I'm not saying he doesn't have any, I'm just working on understanding him right now; if anything it just seems like what they said in the reveal: he needs more foresight to pull off his spells, and it's difficult for him to play reactively.
Keep track of where he is sending the boomerang and putting the stun and he is just a little kid with a neat watch, who is gonna get beat down. Ekko has low damage for an assassin (likely still better than most. He can probably outburst a tank or tanky fighter or most marksmen), and most of his tricks can be stopped by outsmarting him. Even his really high escape potential gets ruined by just having somone watch where he can jump back to. Hes one of those champs you are going to need to be good at playing to get much out of.
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xFZbMEyo,comment-id=001000010001,timestamp=2015-05-14T02:19:41.954+0000)Also, who are these Weaver and Cronos people that people keep mentioning and why do we care? So what if some other game has similar abilities on some character they have? I mean really, "Oh man, Gnar jumps on someone and bounces off doing damage. He must be a Mario rip off." Normally, I would agree. But there's a point where something is no longer "inspired" and is just a flat rip-off. [Weaver](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Weaver)'s ultimate lets him go back to where he was 5 seconds ago and [Chronos](http://smite.gamepedia.com/Chronos)' lets him go back 8 seconds. The three ultimates do have slight differences; Ekko's does damage and has an indicator, Weaver's can be upgraded to target allied heroes and Chronos' resets his cooldowns. Another thing to note is that Ekko only regains part of his health back, compared to the full health/mana restoration of the other two. But basically, this ult has appeared on not one, but TWO heroes in other games (that I know of), and in more interesting forms IMO. To add insult to injury, Riot showed off a potential version of this ult that has never been done before and is drastically more interesting.
To be fair, there are only so many ways to do this particular move, especially within the context of an RTS style moba. Its a really thematic spell that didn't exist in league yet. I also really like the indicated jump point and AOE damage on Ekko ult. It adds an offensive side to the spell that gives it multiple uses, while at the same time allowing the enemy to work around and play with it. Resetting cooldowns isn't really more interesting, just likely stronger. Finally, I have no clue how they would do the ult exactly like in the video. That style of trial and error is what they tried to make show in his gameplay, it just is hard to see because they had to turn his kit into a mess to do it. _Think about it._ (Also heavy theory ahead. I haven't played him) The way Ekko seems designed to play is that he has a ton of tools that are easily avoided or accounted for, but he can in turn outplay his opponent with. When playing Ekko, you play the oppoenent, learn how they play, then use your tools to make every step they take a bad idea. You learn their tells and rhythm then use your tools to beat the tar out of them and punishing them for things they do on instinct. (_They dodge the boomerang...but stumbled into the stun because they reflexively dodged left._ ) His ult also gives him windows to make bad trades _in order to better learn his opponents._ It might be a stretch but I see the makings of a beautiful kit here. It is a bit of a mess but I sort of see what they were going for. EDIT: Heck, what he does in the video is fight the same guy over and over with increasingly worse odds. Isn't that exactly what losing lane looks like? And this guy's kit has the tools to figure his opponent out, then turn it around with smart playing.
: Why don't we take Sion's old ultimate and put it on Aatrox?
That......a really neat idea. Upvoted for discussion this is neat.
Rrett (NA)
: I haven't played since beta, but for around 1-2 years I played veigar only, and I stopped playing the game when dfg removal happened in wait of a compensation. It may not be for the longest of times but 1-2 years is still a good amount. Let's clarify my thoughts on him being an anti-mage. Firstly let me say, I don't understand why people consider him to be one. He's an anti-anyone who builds flat Ap with no utility champion if anything. So people like leblanc was what veigars ult was truely good against. Now here's why I don't think he should be an antimage or even considered one. There are **a lot** of champions who are played mid who are AD or don't really build that much AP. It's actually to the point you don't even consider the bonus damage from enemy AP, it's just too inconsistent, and if something is too inconsistent you just don't add it to the 'plan'. Referring back to pre dfg removal, the general rule was, if you didn't have a decent amount of health and/or MR, veigar would instantly kill you. It didn't matter if you were Zed, khaz, leblanc, ezreal, caitlyn, oriana, syndra, or wh ever, without health and/or mr you were going to die or you were going to live. From all my experiences I've never once noticed the bonus enemy ap damage really mattering. I've played veigar at a fairly high level for a couple of years and I've never considered tabulating the enemy AP as damage. I never looked at the enemy AP and tried to figure out if it'd kill them. I never considered him an anti mage, I considered him an anti-anyone with low hp/mr, because that's what he was. He was a nuker, no reason to attach anti-mage because he was just as good against the AD casters. Now what are my proposed changes? I've thought about it a couple of times on how to make him more fun with his current skill set, but I haven't really thought about a real rework. His passive needs to be changes. As it is it sucks, and I've never liked it. It gives you much less than you think when you consider his overall mana costs. Useless passive. His E needs a rework just flat out. Just keeping it as a cage I would add augmentations to his pre existing skills. When his Q passes through the walls they penetrate all targets within, and maybe gets a jayce treatment in that it speeds up, and gets bigger with more damage till it hits the other side of the cage and disappears. This would fix the issue where people can just kill you in return if you trap them inside for them to 'dance' around. When you use his W inside the box, drop time is instant, maybe more damage. R change, I'd like to have the enemy AP scaling removed, it was always a stupid mechanic, and then increase it's scaling up to 130%, then have it do 150% when hitting an enemy in the box.
I've literally lost my response to you twice to accidentally backing the page when I meant to open a new tabbed. Thats frustrating. I've spend the last half an hour typing responses to your post that will never see the light of day. Its late. I should sleep. *This space reserved for when my will to debate comes back. You had a great post and cool ideas, I have feed back and a few counterarguments....when I feel like typing them ......again.*
Rrett (NA)
: because I own every veigar skin and I used to play veigar only. I still very much want my favorite champ to have a come back and to be fun to play again, but with only 2 spells he's pretty not-fun.
So you stopped playing him because of beta and season 1 changes, kept up with all the skin releases, then appeared to support the Anti-mage Veigar position? Alright. Im on board with this. :D What changes do you propose within the given design perimeters of current League of Legends. Also, I'm still not convinced that Anti-Mage is a crucial part of his theme and identity, but what do you got?
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Lord Graves III

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