: When will Riot admit that modern assassins are too forgiving?
> [{quoted}](name=FederationFurry,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-11T15:48:49.342+0000) > > Considering that most assassin players have mobility to get both in and out of a fight (something most other champion classes don't have). When will Riot admit that this class is still way too forgiving to play? > > > Assassins **_SHOULD_** be: High Risk/High Reward _**NOT**_ Low Risk/High Reward as they are now. > The thing that separates Assassins from divers like {{champion:102}} and {{champion:164}} is that theyre less tanky and that they have the mobility to get out of a fight. If you remove their disengage theyre effectively no longer assassins its part of the core identity of the class, an Assassin should be able to kill you if they get on you in a fight OR damage you enough to force you to disengage while being able to escape. The risk and reward with Assassins doesn't come in a 1v1 fight it comes in game pace, if the assassin doesn't roam to get ahead or kill you in lane they fall off in team fights and won't be relevant come the mid-late game. The Assassin should always be able to win early game vs a mage in lane because if they can't they don't have any period of time where they can win the game. If there was an issue with assassins as a class it'd be that their engage range is too big in some cases. What im talking about here is basically zed or pyke coming in with Yohmuus and Ghost and then w'ing or e'ing ontop of you respectively. As a squishy your counter play to the assassin is to re-locate behind your tank or out of jump range so that you don't die. Alot of the mobility items in the game can end up making that a whole lot less practical for someone in a real game but thats more of an issue with items than anything. final PSA, why does {{item:3147}} Do massive damage on auto, reveal wards, AND apply a 99% slow. Every assassin in the game who builds it has a stun or slow {{champion:555}} Stun, Slow, Pull, {{champion:238}} has a slow {{champion:91}} Has a slow {{champion:107}} has a root and a slow {{champion:121}} Has a slow, they don't count but even {{champion:64}} and {{champion:62}} have their own slows. We don't need to give them another one with an item, its hard enough to disengage the assassin once theyre on you, the 99% slow just kind of gives them the win ;/ atleast make them work for it. Let the item do a 10th of my HP, after blacking out the vision on my mini-map thats fine. For christ sakes though don't let it slow me aswell smh.
: >they have never been changed because they bring in the big bucks of LCS Could you please provide list of how many assassins is being played in proplay compared to other classes? Also, you will say something like "No need to play them all, these few can provide enough flashy plays", which is of course subjective and any good play, be it good Azirs R, Sejus R, majority of allins by adcs, good pick by any skirmish, good engages could be called flashy play... Here is incomplete list for ya, classes might be little bit mixed up, but it's ok. Bruisers - {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:126}} Tanks - {{champion:201}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:79}}{{champion:12}} {{champion:106}} Adcs - {{champion:81}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:110}} Assassins - {{champion:84}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:555}} Mages - {{champion:268}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:8}} Enchanter - {{champion:350}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:497}}
Both {{champion:497}} and {{champion:43}} are catchers I believe and {{champion:350}} is only really good in high Elo because for some reason people can't seem to understand using her passive is important. {{champion:517}} is an AP bruiser not an Assassin Imo which is actually really impressive because other champs meant ti be AP bruisers {{champion:3}} or {{champion:131}} usually just end up going full tank/assassin so honestly probs to riot on designing him well enough to make it work. Not saying Assassins are to strong, I don't even really watch pro play. Just pointing out some of the false information.
Cloud273 (NA)
: So you guys are ok with assassins having extreme safety but when Yasuo has it everyone b*tches. I see how it is...
Assassins fall off late game and aren't DPS champs AND burst champs.
: Instead of overbuffing Sylas, can you like maybe add AP Bruiser itemization?
An item that gave like a little bit of attack speed, health and AP would be nice. Then the passive could have a small ap ratio similar to nashors tooth than gives armor / mr instead of on hit based on AP. Similar to Tri force but w/ out the spellblade effect and gives defensive stats instead.
Emo Twink (OCE)
: Can Yasuo Get Some Removals like Irelia/Akali?
Things to consider about Yasuo Q- AOE crit, Aoe Lifesteal, (Even if reduced after first hit), on hit damage, CD lowers with attack speed, and turns into a knock up on third cast. W- Annoying and the hit box seems bs sometimes but actually probably the most simple ability with the least tag-ons in his kit. E- Does magic damage, more damage after casting multiple times (capped), and faster with his MS. R- Passive reset, turret safety built in, Gap closer, 200 base damage level one with a 175% AD ratio (Does 312 damage lvl 6 before armor), a 15 second armor pen buff on crit strikes. Other than the REALLY specific tricks in his kit like being able to ult at the last second of his Q to increase the knockup duration with ulti, or being able to Q while a target is knocked up, ult, and then Q again why does yasuo need this many parts to each ability? Removing the AOE crit and lifesteal on the Q seems reasonable, during the E into physical damage seems reasonable, removing the turret assist and shield reset on yas's ult seems reasonable (you could probably even reduce the duration on the buff tbh), and not giving him a 175% AD ratio on his ult when he already does tons of DPS and doesn't need burst seems reasonable. honestly tho I think the healthiest idea would be to remove Yas's double crit passive, the armor pen on crit from his ult, the AS scaling on his Q, Then he would build things like Triforce that give CDR health and AS. His spikes would take longer to reach so he can't just get a zeal and dominate lane and he would be getting stats that make sure he doesn't get instantly blown up too. If the first two items a champ gets are ADC items like PD and IE then they're either going to be WAY to squishy to do their damage, do tons of damage and just not be squishy because of base stats or some other reason (Yasuos base stats, his W, and his passive getting a reset, and AOE lifesteal all making him hard to kill), or they're going to do way to much damage but then be so squishy its just like a suicide bomber that no one really cares about. Right now yas is forced into building crit items because he gets so much gold efficiency from them in the form of his passive and Q AS scaling CDR, changing that I think would be the first step to making him a healthier champion.
D4M2X0 (EUW)
: full AD = high chance of winning, full ap = autolose
I mean, if your a mage theres not alot of MR options but for the most part this post is right. MR Options for non-tanks: Enchanters: {{item:3111}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3222}} maybe {{item:3190}} ADC's: {{item:3111}} {{item:3139}} maybe {{item:3091}} and/or {{item:3156}} Bruisers/Divers/AD assassins: {{item:3111}} {{item:3156}} (Tho hexdrinker is just really good early, and the first two in this catagory can by tank items late so keep that in mind) Short Range/Battle Mages:{{item:3111}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3102}} Generic Mages: {{item:3111}} {{item:3102}} ---- Of these classes really only Generic mages suffer, banshees is hard to rush and Merc treads are a big sacrifice when sorc boots exist--- Conversely if we look at armor options for non-tanks Enchanters: {{item:3047}} and maybe {{item:3190}} {{item:3109}} OR {{item:3025}} if your {{champion:37}}. (Really Knightsvow and locket on most enchanters isn't ideal but Im gonna try and be inclusive) ADC's: {{item:3047}} {{item:3026}} and {{item:3025}} if your {{champion:81}} Bruisers/Divers/AD Assassins: {{item:3047}} {{item:3026}} Short Range/Battle Mages: {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} (You can buy seekers early but compared to hexdrinker its ehh tho Zhonyas > Maw) Generic mages: {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} -Of these classes Enchanters and ADC's struggle to build armor and Mages only really have 2 items to do so and lose a pen item- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Even after all this though i think a couple things are important to note A) Armor tank items definitely > MR tank items B) AD champs *Generally* have to commit more to going in than mages, this means that it should be *Slightly* easier for them to take down a target because they have less chances to do so. C) MR items are in general more easily built early in a than build than armor items on Non-Tanks. Its not so much that AD armor pen items are all broken or OP, its that with things like lethality removing flat armor it feels more impact bc the armor options for most classes just aren't rush able. Tabi's is less than ideal on mages and ADC's but sometimes its a sacrifice to make, even so its not viable to expect the ADC to rush GA when they need core items to function. Im not disagreeing w/ the post, I just thought this might be helpful to put some things into perspective. If im missing anything feel free to comment.
nasaL (NA)
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Katarina & Evelynn
katarina - "Aoe Assassin". That probably shouldn't exist to be blunt, hyper mobile champs designed to go in and out and to kill a squishy target is an assassin, if that assassin is killing multiple people instead of being mainly single target it just amplifies the whole issue of playing against assassins being unfun in general. Then again that kind her entire design and gameplay fantasy soooooooooo kinda a mute point.
: I've been saying for years Sona *needs* a game change. Her kit is confusing for a support and she's not really great at one specific thing. Riot needs to decide what direction to take Sona into. Poke support, sustain support, teamfight support, etc. I had a Rioter reply to one of my Sona threads once and he said they don't plan on giving Sona much depth or decision making abilities since she's an easy to pick up support and they don't want to change that. [Source](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BKpArcZr-riot-can-we-add-depth-to-sona)
"not being good at one specific thing" is sona's thing, shes a jack of all trades with clear weaknesses (Squishy and a long CD but impactful ulti), shes the only support that wants to "survive lane" and she scales hard enough that shes going to make more impact than any other support (Unless shes like 0/4) at the 3, or maybe even 2 item and boots mark. Also, her being easy to play and more simple in that regard is part of her allure, id personally hate to see that go ;/
: What do you know, Ahri back up to highest playrate AND winrate midlane in Plat+
ahri is by far the best assassin to play against imo, you can dodge her E and Q atleast and while her R and W auto target the range is pretty small, i feel like I have alot more chances to outplay ahri than say talon, katarina, zed, even diana (Not saying any of those champs are OP or don't have clear weaknesses, im just saying ahri seems a bit more fair to play against), ontop of that in a high dmg meta where assassins are kinda good doesnt it make sense ahri would do well? shes the safest assassin objectively and has a bit of utility so it makes sense her ranking should be high-ish atm, and ofc theres always the fun bit where she doesnt build duskblade.... xD. Also, when i checked ahri wasn't that high up (I used op.gg) but maybe i missed an option or your using a different sight, thats not really the point of my comment tho.
: Remove Akali's stun from her ultimate.
i mean, it could honestly just be a silence or a silence w/ a slow but its so small i dont see why it needs to be changed.
: Pick malzahar. She is already dead. Who cares about sissy bubbles when you have the strongest shield in league history ..I mean look at how broken he is compared to Zoe and how he counters her in every aspect.
{{champion:25}} Midlane with corrupting pot start is always comical, just spam W wave shove her in so she can't roam, get free harass while doing it with luden/aery/scorch/ if she trys to ulti Q her, and if she trys to E her click E first
: Wu and Quinn are not assassins though you are not an assassin just because you have duskblade.
tbh, idk what else to call quinn but most people consider wukong a 'Diver' but his current gameplay (one shot and get out) mirrors that of an assassin, the only exception being if he ults to provide CC in a team fight, but even then he tends to ult kill a few people and get out to wait for cd's
: Lol so you specifically talking about ad assassins right? Arent the only two meta ad assassins Zed and Talon? Zed is the only tier 1 ad assassin according to op.gg, http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics. No one in the lcs will play an assassin they arent good in pro-play. The people spreading this idea are mage mains who are mad that they are not dominate in the mid lane anymore.
wukong and quinn aswell, rengar/kha/shaco aren't exactally bad, well maybe kha is but ehhh more or less just jungle AD assasins that arent good atm. Oh and dont forget pyke hes good.
: can we buff warding?
Its kinda worse atm than usual, just to many assassins running about so you end up having far more duskblades clearing wards than you usually do (Up to 4 per team if you got pyke, assassin mid, assassin jungle, and like quinn or something top although thats unlikely). Its an issue that will probably fix itself once the meta changes.
: Half of those champions can easily bypass it. The fact that you included Azir and Karthus is a clear show about how much you don't know about the skill, litterally nothing of them gets blocked (except Karthus AA I guess).
he stops azir from repositioning his warriors actually
: Tell me your 3 most played champions and I will tell you your personality and greatest fear.
: > [{quoted}](name=Reaper Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ztab4V1,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-07-26T18:39:41.326+0000) > > We've lost contact of what 100-0 means nowadays. It's thrown around like people understand it. > > 100-0's have pretty much ended. Nidalee javelins for 1500 that literally took an adc's health from 100% to 0% is a 100-0 > A level 3 talon who does aa-qwe-aa ignite is not a 100-0. Except you don't use the E on talon and you don't need an AA before the WQ to even kill someone with an ignite and passive. W+Q+auto already procs electrocute and the auto after that is just to ensure the kill with passive after ignite is applied. But people who complain about Talon have obviously not tried to abuse him with Lux, Anivia, or Karma as those 3 champs alone make his laning miserable. Ahri after hitting lv6 also shits on Talon.
Karma is more of a support than a mid laner, lux isnt even that good atm?, and anivia isnt a very common pick you see talon WAY more often. You shouldnt balance a champ around there bad matchups, buff them if its way to over the top you should balance them around the type of match ups theyre generally fighting ;/. Every champ has 2-3 counter picks that will make life miserable its not really an excuse ;/
: Who are your favorite champs what do you think they would do if they found a world rune?
{{champion:37}} put it on a necklace, wrap it around her neck and give herself a voice
: > [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gmtqgqxY,comment-id=0006000000000002,timestamp=2018-07-24T23:50:50.994+0000) > > No, he doesn't. All the other assassins are married to melee range to do more than 50% a target's health. Zed does not. > > If you're a Talon or Fizz and you go into a teamfight, there is no shadow to get back out off. You deal the damage or you die. Zed gets immunity frames and 2 fucking teleports on top of his way better AD scaling than Talon, Ekko, or Fizz. > > Zed also deals way more damage to tanks thanks to the death mark mechanic. Try dueling tanks as Talon or Fizz and tell me that they have an easier time than Zed does. I think his abilities are healthy it's just the damage he does Back in s6 or s7 when he wasn't overpowered with all the duskblade crap I'd feel like there was something I could do because his damage came from ulting and then landing all of his abilities. Now he can throw it out every 10 seconds with QWE and if I don't dodge all of it I have to back.
well if you look at most assassins Leblanc, talon q (Not E but conditional?), Akali, leblanc, Kat, fizz, AD or AP their mobility tends to be tied to one of their main damage sources, like akali dashing in, or leblanc wing in, or Fizz hitting u with playful trickster/his Q, where as zed isnt so he doesnt lose damage for using his mobility to run or evade you. I mean yah he might not be in auto range? so maybe thats something but in general hes less tied to it than other assassins. Not a bad thing just food for thought.
Rexxiee (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=wildfox99,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i8yW8Fvy,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-19T18:54:28.160+0000) > > yea a champion abuse a machanic so all other champions have to suffer for it > > just nerf trynda,AP damage on towers is fine Trynd is not the only example of this. Just look at every mage going bot lane and replacing adc, the thing is that they are doing comparable damage if not more than adcs to towers, and ppl wonder why towers are crumbling over, before it used to be the ADC job to kill them, now everything including ap champs (who are not supposed to be good at tower taking) just 2 shot them.
AD's still generally push faster the AP's unless its an AP known for pushing like Diana, ziggs, hiemer. and even then theres AD's who push faster than those 3.
: Just played Akali - Here are my thoughts:
i actually kinda like the new shroud, because its in a donut shape you know that if akali is in the shroud and planning on attacking you theres a very limited space of that donut she can be in. she doesnt have move speed in it anymore either so hopefully shes easier to hit? I havent played against it yet but it looks nice to me. The turret not being able to see her really sucks but at the same time her 2 main damage skills reveal her and are both skill shots so hopefully its manageable? we'll probs know more once we play against it more tho.
: Kat can take Hexdrinker already or Maw if she really needs to. Her build often has a Morellonomicon, Zhonya's, and a Liandry's in some matchups. In my opinion, Katarina has some massive advantages over many other mid laners at the moment just because she is able to adapt her build in terms of defensive stats with relative ease. If you have a rough laning phase against something like Fizz or LeBlanc, pick up a Hexdrinker and start building towards your Gunblade. Follow up on this with Sorc. Shoes and Morello's, and you're pretty difficult to take down in AP matchups. It also helps to take Nullifying Orb. For an AD matchup, start Cloth+4, take resolve secondary, get your Seeker's if you aren't ahead, then build into Gunblade and finish your Zhonya's, then build as you normally would. *Trust me*, Kat would be able to abuse the HELL out of this. This item screams the return of tank Katarina, which is not something that anyone wants to see. Even then, these items are incredibly busted. Each time I kept reading further, I just thought "There's MORE to it?" I would buy this on literally every champion, even if they didn't have AP scales. The gold value is immense and the passive is just so absurdly broken.
I think your miss reading the passive? or maybe I am. As i understand it the passive has 2 conditions A) you have to be bursted within a certain period of time to trigger the effect B) your getting 40% or 80% of 50% of your current max HP from the shield. -depending on the item tier- or in simple terms 20% of your max HP or 40%. This means on tanks that stack health it would be immensely difficult to proc bc its unlikely youd be bursted that fast (Unless your being hard focused but thats the enemy team misplaying) or your squishy enough to proc it but the shield is smaller because of your lower base HP). That doesnt really sound broken to me and it has an innate punishment for tanks who decide to build the item ontop of offering AP instead of health making it very in-efficent cost wise? the orbs could definitly be excessive tho.
: if i rush {{item:3157}} , my mana pool is lower than that one of a poppy if i dont rush {{item:3157}} , i will get dived 100-0 and theres nothing i can do about it until i get {{item:3157}} {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
{{item:3191}}+ {{item:3802}} = Win
Daenerys (OCE)
: This hurts burst mages more than assassins since it will probably be used on assassins themselves.
maybe AP assassins like akali/katarina/fizz/diana even so thats probably okay bc thos champs dont have the best defensive options either. Only Zhonyas and banshees.
: Why should mages have anti-assassin item exactly? They already get shit loads of health and outscale assassins.
mages don't get that much HP and assassins do enough damage to one shot through what HP they build meaning they usually have to pick up a defensive item early game, seekers VS. AD or maybe null magic vs AP.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kythers,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kfKyw4AG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-15T10:15:41.838+0000) > > I wish his scaling was changed so he cant build pure damage and kill everything and run at you stealthed with 800 ms His scalings arent even particularly good. Its just his very kit itself that makes it so easy to stack and use items like {{item:3147}} {{item:3095}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3078}} and whatnot and just deal a crapton of damage with a Q that doesnt deal anything in particular if you just grab AD. Hells even his E doesnt actually deal a lot, and while his ulti does have great scalins its much too slow to be of any use quite often. Real damage comes from poping in with E-Q then going invis Q again, if they survive you ulti and run away but stay close enough that you can instantly gapclose with the invis from your next W, only a tank will have a good shot at surviving that. Its so silly simple but ridiculously powerful because of items, not his scalings or base damage but just item synergy.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kfKyw4AG,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-07-15T14:16:57.065+0000) > > His scalings arent even particularly good. > > > Its just his very kit itself that makes it so easy to stack and use items like {{item:3147}} {{item:3095}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3078}} and whatnot and just deal a crapton of damage with a Q that doesnt deal anything in particular if you just grab AD. > > Hells even his E doesnt actually deal a lot, and while his ulti does have great scalins its much too slow to be of any use quite often. > > > Real damage comes from poping in with E-Q then going invis Q again, if they survive you ulti and run away but stay close enough that you can instantly gapclose with the invis from your next W, only a tank will have a good shot at surviving that. > > Its so silly simple but ridiculously powerful because of items, not his scalings or base damage but just item synergy. his ulti was like that before but w/ nimbus cloak he can get a full damage cycle off w/ it. ;/
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=000800000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-12T00:19:00.378+0000) > > Zed chunks at lvl 3 because hes an assassin same w/ talon thats their damage spike and electrocute ignite is alot of that damage. Thats also to early in the game for anyone to have armor or HP items like seekers arm-guard or stop watch so that contributes alot to the issue of their burst early game, Soo w just explain away their damage "because they are assassins" seems legit > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=000800000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-12T00:19:00.378+0000) > > While zoe builds magic pen later Magic Resist is A) harder to stack than armor because you get it in lower quanities and B) takes longer to get. You can early back and buy a null magic mantle for 450 sure but that doesnt do much, you need a full banshees to truly be effective in negative zoes burst w/ the spellshield where as w/ talon and zed you can buy a seekers armor guard (More expensive at 1100) or but has more armor and AP inbuilt or its cloth armor compenents (Cheaper at 300) if you need the protections. The seekers is also a cost enough efficent item for you to sit on while you finish your lost chapter item if your not in dire need of the zhonyas. like this is what i am talking about when i say you havent played against her in forever. 1 MR shuts down her dmg for a while and if you get say a {{item:1057}} she cannot push through that MR at least till her third item which is a long time and even then she is only breaking even at that point. she still cannot burst you down. > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=000800000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-12T00:19:00.378+0000) > > And yes. the talons / zeds ive gone against lately have gotten fed but even so I generally dont see them chunking the tanks unless its a really bad situation. if memory serves most of those were zoe supports? tho im not terribly sure. Of all your games with Zoe going against tanks = 1 Of all your games with Zoe going against anyone who built any MR = 1 Did you miss the memo, no one is running tanks because on Conqueror. She is not "chunking your tanks are even your bruisers unless she is insanely fed which only happened in 1 game that went hyper late game and she wasn't the only one insanely fed. You are not even trying to analyze your games, she is one of the worst mid performers in a majority of your games. The best ironically(the ones actually costing you the most games and doing the most dmg on average) you seem to have no problems with.
negatron cloak isnt that good on most midlaners anymore, thats why i talked about banshees since the nerfs to abysal mask range alot less champions can build it, certainly champions like lux/xerath couldnt but maybe annie or viegar could it all dpeends on the matchup. Most of the time however your not gonna be able to take abysal over banshees. Melee assassins having alot of dmg lvl 3 makes since because thats when they get their combo, if zed had no damage threat lvl 3 he'd be even easier to lane bully than he already is pre 6. im not talking about the viability on tanks and i never said people arent running tanks because of zoe, my point was that her combo can chunk even the tankiest people on your team from pretty far away. Im not salty about zoe or think shes over performing? i have no issue w/ the champ and I never said I did however i think if they are gonna buff her or even nerf her it would be healthier for power to be in her W and not the longer range nuke abilities.
Dyzur (NA)
: Why did I get banned for pointing out the obvious?
have you submitted a ticket to support? your not really being that negative it doesnt look like anything that you should be banned for in all honesty.
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T18:38:43.288+0000) > > i play against zed and talon daily, and no they dont lol. Zoe deals true damage with her E proc which cant be mitigated thats why shes able to chunk tanks and spirit visage for all its hype only gives 55 MR i believe? which in reality isnt that much considering most armor items can give 70-100 armor depending what your building, frozen heart - thorn mail. The highest MR item is banshees but thats not viable on most tanks. Unless your building improper or are ACTUALLY a squishy target zed/talon shouldnt be able to burst you. Yes they do, In fact i jut had a game against a zed who was able to chuck me from 100% to 30% in 1 combo at lvl 3. Her True damage values on average https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zoe/ 80% of the damage she deals is magic, the true damage values are close to her physical damage values, literally do not know what you are talking about. Again she doesn't build Void staff for quite a while and the items she does build are more expensive then Talon and Zed's. Finally while you see Zed's and Talons regularly you go against Zoe's rarely and any performing well are even rare with ones snowballing your games almost none existent meanwhile in the last 24hrs you had 2 zed games with one going 10/5 and the other going 18/8, much better then any of your games with Zoe's in it. Worst off her total dmg in those games were pretty low despite her enemies building almost no MR.
Zed chunks at lvl 3 because hes an assassin same w/ talon thats their damage spike and electrocute ignite is alot of that damage. Thats also to early in the game for anyone to have armor or HP items like seekers arm-guard or stop watch so that contributes alot to the issue of their burst early game, While zoe builds magic pen later Magic Resist is A) harder to stack than armor because you get it in lower quanities and B) takes longer to get. You can early back and buy a null magic mantle for 450 sure but that doesnt do much, you need a full banshees to truly be effective in negative zoes burst w/ the spellshield where as w/ talon and zed you can buy a seekers armor guard (More expensive at 1100) or but has more armor and AP inbuilt or its cloth armor compenents (Cheaper at 300) if you need the protections. The seekers is also a cost enough efficent item for you to sit on while you finish your lost chapter item if your not in dire need of the zhonyas. And yes. the talons / zeds ive gone against lately have gotten fed but even so I generally dont see them chunking the tanks unless its a really bad situation. if memory serves most of those were zoe supports? tho im not terribly sure.
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T18:38:43.288+0000) > > i play against zed and talon daily, and no they dont lol. Zoe deals true damage with her E proc which cant be mitigated thats why shes able to chunk tanks and spirit visage for all its hype only gives 55 MR i believe? which in reality isnt that much considering most armor items can give 70-100 armor depending what your building, frozen heart - thorn mail. The highest MR item is banshees but thats not viable on most tanks. Unless your building improper or are ACTUALLY a squishy target zed/talon shouldnt be able to burst you. Congrats on not knowing what you're talking about. Zoe's E only does 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP) true damage POST MITIGATION. Meaning that even with 600 AP you're going to be doing less than 400 true damage on a high MR target. How exactly does 350 true damage every 10-8 second at 35 min into a game chuck a 4000hp+ tank? Please explain this to me, id like know. Gotta love ignorant people who cant be bothered to read an ability before talking about it like they are some kind of authority.
thats 350 true damage ontop of paddle star damage so really it amounts to being quite a bit. If zoe lands an E Q on squishy targets and shes not behind she will probably not 1 shot them but she'll definitly do over half their hp, similarly if she lands an E Q on a tank she probably wont half shot them but she'll definitly chunk them for a good bit of damage. Not saying thats a bad thing at all just how the champion is.
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T17:42:07.873+0000) > > uhm, zed and talon dont chunk tanks unless the tanks are behind or they are extremly fed, as a whole armor is ALOT more stackable than MR and generally you have more AD champs on a team than AP so in most circumstances the tank already has enough armor to deal w/ or resist a zed/talons burst. Plus talon W doesnt do much damage on its own its his full combo that kills and zed Q only really does good damage if he hits multiple which does require set up, both of which are alot shorter range abilities. I think that if you think comparing an artillery mage to an AD assassin is reasonable your completely delusional but that aside talon and zed have their own issues aswell although thats not the point of this thread. > > to be clear i dont think zoes broken, i just think forcing power into her W provides more counterplay, its a similar situation to Sona in a sense. Sona's Q isnt dodgeable but it does less damage than her powercord aa's, the powercord does less damage but its shorter range however plays can actually punish sona for using powercord by engaging on her, the same is true of zoe when she autos. Even tho a Zoe Q can miss its alot harder to punish than her getting into auto attack range. Lmao when was the last time you played against a Zed/Talon, they chunk tanks even harder meanwhile tanks block my skillshots on Zoe regularly and take them really well if they at least build 1 MR item. Zed/Talon give 0 craps about your armor. Tanks are actually very effective against Zoe but no one runs tanks because of conqueror but even bruisers are pretty sturdy against her with a {{item:3065}} . Not to mention Zoe doesn't build {{item:3135}} till like fifth item and when was the last time games have went on that long. Then final cherry on the icying is that she scales terribly into the late game where tanks thrive. If she is working on a fifth item she is already falling off.
i play against zed and talon daily, and no they dont lol. Zoe deals true damage with her E proc which cant be mitigated thats why shes able to chunk tanks and spirit visage for all its hype only gives 55 MR i believe? which in reality isnt that much considering most armor items can give 70-100 armor depending what your building, frozen heart - thorn mail. The highest MR item is banshees but thats not viable on most tanks. Unless your building improper or are ACTUALLY a squishy target zed/talon shouldnt be able to burst you.
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T06:30:37.562+0000) > > yes, bc that giant projectile while dodgeable etc isnt the easiest to play around in a team fight and even chunks tanks, regardless of how much damage it deals theres very little i can do about a zoe just lobbing Q's at me, if she R's ontop of me for a lichbane proc im almost 100% in vision range or near enough to her R cast location to throw a CC spell towards it or target her w/ damage to punish her someway. Id much rather have power in a short range non-dodgeable spell that a long range semi-dodgeable nuke. Well if you are worried about projectiles chunk tanks then you need to talk about ALL of them, if you think Zoe is unique in this you be are being delusion. Talon and Zed's projectile chunk harder with no setup. Anyone who has actual reasonable complaints about Zoe has always mentioned the W because they know her skillshots themselves have a ton of counterplay to them.
uhm, zed and talon dont chunk tanks unless the tanks are behind or they are extremly fed, as a whole armor is ALOT more stackable than MR and generally you have more AD champs on a team than AP so in most circumstances the tank already has enough armor to deal w/ or resist a zed/talons burst. Plus talon W doesnt do much damage on its own its his full combo that kills and zed Q only really does good damage if he hits multiple which does require set up, both of which are alot shorter range abilities. I think that if you think comparing an artillery mage to an AD assassin is reasonable your completely delusional but that aside talon and zed have their own issues aswell although thats not the point of this thread. to be clear i dont think zoes broken, i just think forcing power into her W provides more counterplay, its a similar situation to Sona in a sense. Sona's Q isnt dodgeable but it does less damage than her powercord aa's, the powercord does less damage but its shorter range however plays can actually punish sona for using powercord by engaging on her, the same is true of zoe when she autos. Even tho a Zoe Q can miss its alot harder to punish than her getting into auto attack range.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T03:25:50.029+0000) > > A fed Xerath will literally Q you for half your HP and its easier to land than Zoe Q. > A fed Lux will literally just Q + Ult and 100-0 you from over half a screen > A fed Veigar will stun you from across the screen and Q+Ult you for 100% of your health > A fed Syndra will Q+E stun + Ult you for 100% of your health > A fed Velkoz can Q+ ult you for 100% of your health from half way across the screen > > So what exaclty is so out of line with Zoe Q according to you when its actually hard to land on a moving target who isnt total trash? All of those champs you listed have 0 mobility, Zoe can steal flashes has a sprint on her W and a temporary blink. Zoe is the only champ on that list that doesn't really require a long CD ulti to burst someone down in the mid game. Zoe gets these things because she doesn't need damage from anything other then Q for the most part. The problem with her Q is because it does so much damage it leaves room for so much extra unfair utility in her kit.
if were being honest lux also has an extremely short ulti CD but your point isnt entirely wrong
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB0o9Ak4,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-07-10T20:58:44.208+0000) > > I hate playing against zoe but nerfing her W is an awful idea, if anything more power should be shifted into it. Because of the long range nature of zoes abilities she kind of functions like an artillery mage, lobbing spells at you from far away and dealing tons of damage primarily her Q procing her E. her W and the auto attack passive incentivizes her to get into danger range for extra damage. If you take away that incentive she will only become less interactive to play against, let her autos do damage so we can punish her for autoing rather than spending the game dodging q's like dancing monkeys. > > Other artillery mages all have similar things, lux passive, xerath passive, velkoz e is shorter range -kinda hes a bit of an exception-, Ziggs passive, varus if you count him needs blight stacks that he applies from AA's for his longer range Q to do the most damage it possibly can. An artillery mage type champion w/ out the incentive to get in close is worse than one that bursts for less at longer range. Okay just so we are clear, you would rather i chunk a quarter of your life(more since you want to put more power into it) with a point and click summon(with R) Then a Q that has to be ramped up, can be blocked by minions and other champions, and needs to be combo'd with E to get the most out of it? Fyi her build path will change From {{item:3285}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3089}} back to {{item:3285}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3089}} meaning her AAs will hit harder and she will be able to throw out more Qs in the mid game. Have fun with that especially since it will be a lot of free poke with R+AA. I mean when they gutted her before bringing her back up i just abused Lich Bane and W and still was destroying ppl.
yes, bc that giant projectile while dodgeable etc isnt the easiest to play around in a team fight and even chunks tanks, regardless of how much damage it deals theres very little i can do about a zoe just lobbing Q's at me, if she R's ontop of me for a lichbane proc im almost 100% in vision range or near enough to her R cast location to throw a CC spell towards it or target her w/ damage to punish her someway. Id much rather have power in a short range non-dodgeable spell that a long range semi-dodgeable nuke.
: PBE Zoe nerfs are hitting the wrong thing. More W nerfs are needed instead.
I hate playing against zoe but nerfing her W is an awful idea, if anything more power should be shifted into it. Because of the long range nature of zoes abilities she kind of functions like an artillery mage, lobbing spells at you from far away and dealing tons of damage primarily her Q procing her E. her W and the auto attack passive incentivizes her to get into danger range for extra damage. If you take away that incentive she will only become less interactive to play against, let her autos do damage so we can punish her for autoing rather than spending the game dodging q's like dancing monkeys. Other artillery mages all have similar things, lux passive, xerath passive, velkoz e is shorter range -kinda hes a bit of an exception-, Ziggs passive, varus if you count him needs blight stacks that he applies from AA's for his longer range Q to do the most damage it possibly can. An artillery mage type champion w/ out the incentive to get in close is worse than one that bursts for less at longer range.
Daoist (NA)
: This META vs. Your Favorite META - Would having fun in LOL become your memory?
i miss the ardent meta, games were longer less people died you hardly saw assassins and if u did you had an enchanter on your team to deal w/ them and because you had an ADC utility / late game teams were more common which i enjoy playing against alot more than teams full of bruisers or divers that just do tons of burst rather than DPS.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ninjaroxas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ewAZExGY,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2018-07-09T18:04:02.213+0000) > > Damn what am I missing when did kindred become meta? Recently Overcompensated because muh scuttle contesting
Tbf, atleast kindred isnt a stat check champion. Her marks are contestable if u got a competent midlaner who roams and overall it requires alot more skill to kill someone w/ her than it does any of the aforementioned assassins, also having an ADC that spikes earlier than 3 items like all the other ADC's in the game -Kindred only really needs warriors and runnans- is really helpful in the current meta where most teams don't have an ADC. Gives her more value, not just that her dmg or numbers are high.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wickedfates,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cJdYhO8N,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-28T21:08:54.716+0000)ya i got chat banned congrats! u got a person who didnt say shit wrong... If this is the takeaway you get from this conversation, then I would recommend finding another game to play. *League* DOES punish worse toxicity actively (as these very boards show), but that doesn't mean your behavior is okay. If it does not change, more punishments are in your future.
In fairness to him, while hes being really sassy etc it doesnt sound like he was being flamed back and while he COULD of muted the people it seems excessive for punishing him for just being sassy even if it doesnt help the situation ;/
: Little rework concept - Ivern
complete goes against the concept of ivern and throws out his identity. Not really ideal .-. sorry
Wygol (EUW)
: The Darkin lores are incredible, I just have one question.
Keep in mind too that the varus we see is a varus that was... 1) a human 2)ascended 3) got brought down and binded into only a bow 4) ripped apart too men making a new body with them trapped inside its not unreasonable that him being ascended and forming a new body would look size-ably different. Unless im missing something.
: Darius also has more damage in the rest of his kit than pyke ever could wish to have. Darius's Q blade damage alone is about as much damage as both of pyke's damaging basic abilities combined
hes also a juggernaut, not a heavy cc stealth utility assassin / support
: "no set up" how does pyke execute people if the ezreal is full hp ?
how does darius execute with no passive stacks? both of them need to land abilities or have there target fairly low. Darius however, needs to get stacks in addition to having a low HP target
: (I changed my boards name but it's me, Gentleman Gustaf, your friendly neighborhood patch notes writer) Because of its early attack speed, players are encouraged to kite Gromp. As a result, we're giving Gromp a longer leash so random feeling de-aggros are less common.
yes thats what i meant thank you :D wasn't sure how to word it lol
: Experiment: Community Patch Notes
{{summoner:11}} Jungle Change: Gromp's aggroing can be a bit frustrating and the camp resets rather easily leading to some un-needed frustration for some junglers. To rememdy this gromp will now chase another 200 units.
dogehkiin (EUW)
: If you were at 30% hp in lane without E/summoners with the actual meta it was your fault dying, everybody can make that 300 hp disappear quickly right now at low lvl. Also I see that you like to compare Pyke R with Darius R, well, did you know that Darius reset lasts longer or fully resets at rank 3? Did you know that Darius R deals lots of true damage even if the enemy isn't below the required Hp to kill him? Did you know that Darius R can't be dodged or missed because it's point'n click? Did you know that Darius R fully charges his passive and makes him instantly apply 5 stacks of bleed when he kills an enemy with it? Did you know that Darius R full damage is higher than Pyke R and the difference gets bigger and bigger the more the game lasts? Did you know that Darius can gain bonus HP and won't be easily oneshoted?
Did you know, pyke ult does AOE damage, requires no set up in the form of stacking, doubles as a gap closer on a champ that already has AOE hard cc a dash and a hook, and pykes ult gives gold to allys spiraling a lead further. Yes, the single target execute with set up should be more damage than a multi target gap closer execute with no set up <3
: wait. didnt they initially say they wanted to increase turret health with the regeneration changes? they said they wanted to change turrets not to be able to regenerate to 100% anymore, but have stopping points at 1/3 and 2/3 health. in return they wanted to buff overall turret health. no wonder i was able to literally stand there without minions and 1v1 an inhib turret.
you can do that currently, even with support champs https://youtu.be/NY-X4yChALU believe and you shall do
: I disagree with the proximity procs, unless there’s an exception. It should not proc by proximity when the enemy has baron or banner on a minion. That is, there shouldn’t be an execute by proximity. It is a frustrating mechanic, for sure. But I do get that sometimes clearing the wave quickly takes priority over getting all of your procs.
What if they gave it something similar to guardian but with a larger range, u stand in the circle around the support and it does the proc the heal then prioritizing who's ever in the circle
Kubox (NA)
: I really have to wonder what they gained by making it so Spellthief can only proc once per spell. I always felt it did more bad than good. All it really did was make Brand and Morgana unable to get all stacks done with one attack. Meanwhile, every other support got shafted because for a lot of them, hitting multiple enemies with one skill was the only way they could get some leeway between spell casts and not going oom instantly.
It made the item alot less competitive as a whole. It was always a risk / reward item, the only really motive to keep it now is A) it gives AP unlike coin even if its a marginal amount, and B it gives mana regen which is probably less sustain than coin considering your forced to constantly be using spells but stacks with athenes late to allow you to scale better. Athenes stacking / slightly better stats for High risk gold gen and no way to gain gold reliably w/ out enemies around, its hardly a fair trade in its current state.
: What about the other five people in the game who expect to get matched up to someone relatively close to their skill level? Strictly more people are made miserable by smurfing.
People get fed and spiral in their own skill level all the time, or atleast it happens reasonable often in bronze-gold where ive played elo wise which is reasonable what these new players can expect w/ out smurfs in their game. If the smurf isnt being openly toxic or rude and not playing in a competitive mode to boost people then its no different than when the akali/zed mid gets fed and spirals the game. its unfun for the opposition for sure, but shouldn't be bannable.
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LuthianDelphi

Level 258 (NA)
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