: I'd probably add a survival mechanic to his passive. Something along the lines of, when Kog reaches 1 hp, he gets 3 secs of invulnerability and if he gets a kill (not an assist) he revives with 10% max hp
> [{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zm2QQ9l,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-09T16:14:02.527+0000) > > I'd probably add a survival mechanic to his passive. > > Something along the lines of, when Kog reaches 1 hp, he gets 3 secs of invulnerability and if he gets a kill (not an assist) he revives with 10% max hp that sounds terrifying
: How is Cass damage less reliable? Hit them with giant aoe and spam e on them. Ryze you have to aim the q which isnt a fast projectile either cassio also keeps her opponents unable to flash or move away while you can flash and dash his q's. Theres no way you can say cass damage is easier to avoid it's a point and click lol
She had to land her Q (a easy to dodge skill shot even without boots) or land her W (Which has 24-16 second CD and is her only non-ultimate defense). Yes the W slows you but you can still walk out of it while only taking 2-3 e's and the range is short. Ryze on the other hand just has to land his Q, yes its a skill shot but theres no set up, its spammable, pretty fast all things considered, and does respectable damage even when not empowered by flux. if cassio's W is on CD and she misses Q shes effectively not a champion and a free kill because she has no damage, ryze will ALWAYS have damage with his Q even if his flux isn't up. He's the only DPS mage not gated by a damage condition (Azir warriors, Cassio poison, Asol stars). That would be okay if he was a burst mage but hes meant to be a DPS who does burst levels of damage for no apparent reason.
: > [{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ByHxWo1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-09T14:10:47.604+0000) > > Any adc hits a rightclick on you and AA-AA-AA-AA-AA-..., you ded > You are not supposed to stand still and afk while under Cassio's Q. It's different. ADCs are typically easy to engage on and blow up, but it's incredibly hard to do this to Cass unless you're playing something to match the mobility and DMG of a Zed. Besides, Cass is stronger than most ADCs. If Cass hits ONE Q then E's, that's nearly half your health bar. To top it off, "just dodging" her abilities isn't as meaningful as dodging the abilities of others. Once she has tear, she's free to spam Q, which has a longer range(850) than every ADC does btw, every 3 seconds and hit you with her "second auto-attack," which has 700 range, every second. Top Lane Cassiopeia is not OK. She's a hyper scaling lane bully that you CAN'T punish. The fix is obvious, get rid of her grounding or the 50% slow. You say she's gated by her range late game, but she literally has some of the highest range in the game.
"Every 3 seconds" Exactly, thats 3 seconds where she loses ALL the dps in her kit because she missed her spell and you can kill her while shes not a threat. Edit: Also just wanted to add that Cassio in a long lane early game is begging to die to any competent jungler, think about it pre 6 what does she anwser a gank with if shes pushed up? she probably gets dashed on by kha/lee/sej/most junglers and stunned/slowed and dies. And if the jungler isn't dashing on her bc of W you know that the riven/fiora/renekton/maokai/most toplaners are and doing something similar. Top laners and junglers usually have pretty good follow up for ganks and cass can't deal with that.
: What's the reasoning behind mages like Cassio/Ryze ?
Take short trades, Cassio is DPS and most midlane champs will do their combos quicker than her (Granted hers will do more if she gets all her e's off). If you do your combo and then disengage before she can hit a Q or lock u down w/ W then you'll probably win the trade. Ryze SHOULD be the same way but he does far more burst then any other ranged magic dps champ (Azir, Cassio, Asol before W change), Really theres not much counter play to that and he should be forced to choose between burst and dps not have both.
: The problem is he has not mobility and 1 cc that's conditional so if hes weak he will just be dogshit. Azir has super long ranges and casio can stun a ton of people for awhile. Cassio is a better version of ryze with easier damage
Cassio's damage is easier to avoid than ryze and takes longer to execute, dodging a Q or waiting out the long CD on miasma is feasible and that leaves her effectively unable to kill you, even her ulti is avoidable if you think shes going to use it and turn around . Ryze on the other hand had CC that was unconditional till very recently, and does good damage without even having the flux set up on his Q which also isn't very difficult to get set up. He does have less mobility than azir and Cassio do however but that makes sense because his damage was more reliable, even so I think that if the damage in his kit was toned down to be in line with the other two and his safety was up'd (Either by giving him MS in his kit or a self peeling options like azir (E and R) or cassio (W and R) he would be a healthier champion. Even without safety in his kit having him be both a burst mage and a DPS mage will never be healthy when its a 5v5 game where other people can help peel for him.
: > The point about transcendence is not bogus, if you're overcapping your gaining AP meaning that the margin of AP you actually gain from the new item is lower But then you're not gaining CDR anymore, so you should also deduct that from the total. And spoiler, the result will be the same than keeping the CDR in the total and not counting the AP from Transcendence, because Transcendence's conversion is almost at gold parity. > Also while its easy to overcap CDR mid/late game getting 10% CDR early, (Which is when you got old t2) is HUGE. Its a giant impact to the game and most people would much prefer 10% CDR early OK, that's a valid point. I think you're overselling it, but it's true that I neglected timing issues in my analysis, and I think that 10% CDR is indeed better in mid-game than some AP. I don't believe it's as "HUGE" as you claim, but that's a valid point against the new version. However, if we start talking about timing, the discussions becomes incredibly complex, because how much do you value capping CDR earlier compared to having a finished Redemption or Censer 450g earlier? > Now, lets do some quick math just to be certain. In late, it's much better to get HP than mana regen, and I still think it's unfair to count Grail's passive against the new version. But even if we ignore all that and I don't nitpick, 10 AP + 150 HP + the price of T2 upgrade - 50% regen = ~820g So yeah, I would also "much rather prefer having the tier 2 frostfang in my games than the new support item" if it was the same price. But it is NOT the same price, and I'd much rather have the new support item **and a full component worth of gold on the side** than **just** the old T2. > Edit: I can't seem to find it but maybe you could, do you have any idea what the average time for hitting t3 spellthiefs is? I don't have stats, but from my own anecdotal experience, I would say around 18-20 minutes. ___ Overall, the new version is clearly a nerf in early game before you get the first free upgrade. After the first upgrade, it's roughly even, slight advantage to the old version, still a small nerf, but not a "HUGE" one. But in late game, it's very clearly a buff, no matter how you slice it, up until the very late game when gold doesn't matter anymore and slot efficiency is more important because you're full stuff (but that doesn't happen often). So I mean, if we get back to your original question "who thought supports needed nerfs early?", I don't know, and it's true this is an early nerf, I don't deny that. But *my* original reply was that this is not a nerf "overall". It's a small nerf early in exchange for a bigger buff in mid/late. Personally I'm much happier with the new situation.
> So yeah, I would also "much rather prefer having the tier 2 frostfang in my games than the new support item" if it was the same price. But it is NOT the same price, and I'd much rather have the new support item **and a full component worth of gold on the side** than **just** the old T2. > I'd argue 150 HP really isn't very relevant in the late game, assuming that its around 20 minutes thats probably going to be around 1 auto worth of damage depending on the champion, and enchanters in general are so squishy its not going to prevent them from getting blown up. Yes, it can be helpful and there will be times where that 150 HP will make a difference, but if you're positioning well and playing a mana heavy champion like nami or sona I think having the 50% mana regen is more consistently helpful which is why i'd prefer it. That actual build that I personally preferred to run on Sona last season was (Frost fang - Ionian - Mikaels - Game dependent 10% CDR item). In a meta where alot of game seem to be decided by the 20 minute mark, (or atleast heavily swayed by the early game) having 30% CDR pre 20, with 20% healshield power and the mana regen to sustain that healing really maximizes the impact you can make contributing to those games early. Running the same set up with the new frost fang sets you up to have 10% less CDR, 50% less mana regen, and 5 less AP with only 70 health and 450 gold to compensate you until you get to that 20 minute mark, where the extra 80 HP (Again an auto or less of damage at 20 minutes) and 45 AP dont feel like they're worth it after the gimping that you suffer early game. Maybe the crux of the issue is that when you first backed as support last season and got your t2 item you felt more powerful, you could notice the extra damage you were doing with frost dang and see yourself gaining more gold as you harassed enemies and tried to build a lead, the new support item doesn't do that. When I get the upgrade from t1-t2 I dont feel like theres much of a change, and first backing and buying a faerie charm and boots, or 3 faerie charms, or an amp tome? well none of those feel as rewarding as buying t2 frostfang ever did. The new items are weaker early and whatever power they might provide in the mid game / early late game feels bad because the extra gold and stats are introduced slowly (The gradual climb in AP and health as the item upgrades) and as a result of buying other items (With the 450 you initially save). If im going to be gated from other sources of income and devote myself to trying to complete a quest on an item it should feel rewarding when it happens. (TLDR: Maybe the new support items aren't as bad mid game as im crediting them to be but the way that they've been designed definitely makes them feel a lot worse when being compared to the clear and visible power spikes you got when upgrading to frost fang in season 8 and 9.)
Sirsir (NA)
: The Ryze Problem
His damage just needs to be brought into line w/ every other DPS mage in the game, Azir, Cassio, Asol, there is NO stage of the game where one hit of their (minions, E, or Stars) respectively will do 1K damage but there is for ryze. If hes going to be a spammy machine gun mage thats fine, but he shouldn't be playing as a burst mage without cooldowns.
: to be fair, while this is a reasonable point, it seems to exclude champions that are threats just by being themselves and not upon a massive steroid {{champion:420}} {{champion:31}} (he may gain health, but it's usually not chogath's health that you're worried about except in the case of his ultimate) {{champion:266}} {{champion:6}} etc typically what involves a juggernaut is that they have massive innate power and involve some method that is simple enough to play around. Take darius, you know that you want to avoid his Q at all costs, so you either go for the handle or evading it entirely (though his combo has a way around that) Dr mundo may be powerful, but he can only focus one target at a time and is slow while his ultimate is not procced and is vulnerable to grievous wounds and is entirely melee except for his Q Illaoi is part of her character where she teaches you not to fight her at bad times. If you try to fight her during her ult, you are either massively ahead or doomed to fail etc {{champion:106}} for instance may be one of the strongest melee characters around, but his primary strength is finding his opponents out of position. If you are not, there is very little chance he can even get to you, much less inflict damage
Cho gath isn't a juggernaut hes a tank, additionally Illaoi does have a condition, thats having tentacles nearby or having enough champions/spirits in range to summon tentacles with her ulti. Without her passive then shes useless, exactly like OP talks about above. Aatrox is similar, massive power but conditional on hitting Q and very easy to kite out, less conditional than illaoi sure but his damage is also easier to land and more consistent where illaoi has to revolve around her tentacles. Urgot, same thing. His condition is the cooldown on his legs. Voli is harder to place but he has been weaker than the other juggernauts on this weak and is due for a rework/gameplay update. He doesn't really have any condition on his damage but because of that his upfront damage is alot less than urgot/illaoi/darius, though his CC is alot better. Honestly Voli feels more like a diver/fighter than a juggernaut.
: Comparing old T2 and new T2 makes no bloody sense. The new T2 automatically gets upgraded, no matter what, you don't have a choice to remain at the new T2. And... what?! > 10% CDR is worth 800-900 gold, (900 gold in fiendish codex, and 800 in kindle gem) You do realize that neither the Codex nor the Gem provide only CDR? That the AP/HP they provide aren't free at all? 10% CDR is worth a bit less than 300g, as per the wiki. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Gold_efficiency#Base_Statistic_Prices I agree with the point about Grail, though, I'm a fervent user of this item, and it's true the lack of mana regen does indirectly hurt Grail. But that item was sleeper OP before and it's still fine today. The point about Transcendence, on the other hand, is bogus. Transcendence, contrary to the Grail's passive, doesn't multiply the value of your CDR if you overcap, it just converts it. You get ~300g of AP INSTEAD of ~300g of CDR, not in addition to it, that's still just ~300g, so the comparison between the two version of the support items doesn't change one bit with or without Transcendence. And finally, "most people would MUCH prefer the CDR", no, they wouldn't. It's still super easy to overcap even without CDR on the Frostfang. 10 from the stat shard, 10 from Transcendence, 10 from Redemption, 10 from Grail, that's it, you're at 40. Even with Boots and Ward box without CDR, you still have two free slots left, and more likely than not, they will also have CDR (Censer, Twin Shadows, you have it). > its just sad that you an't definitively say the FINAL FORM of the new support item is better than the tier 2 form of the old one. Yes you can, and I'll do it: the final form is immensely better than the old tiers2 form. As a matter of fact, it's better by 1100g, as I had already pointed out in the previous post. By 850g even if you count the AP-from-mana-regen via Grail, which you shouldn't, because a ton of Frostfang users don't build Grail. But even if you do, 850g is still a lot.
The point about transcendence is not bogus, if you're overcapping your gaining AP meaning that the margin of AP you actually gain from the new item is lower than it looks like when just comparing the stats. Also while its easy to overcap CDR mid/late game getting 10% CDR early, (Which is when you got old t2) is HUGE. Its a giant impact to the game and most people would much prefer 10% CDR early than a little bit of AP especially when you can covert the excess CDR into AP via your runes so you don't lose the gold efficency. Now, lets do some quick math just to be certain. T2 frostfang- 10% CDR, 50% mana regen and 20 AP. (Bonus on hit damage and gold generation) Coverts to - (20) Transcendence + (10) Grail + (20) Base = 50 AP and 50% mana regen Late game. T3- 60 AP, 150 Health. (No on hit damage or gold gen). Stats wise the tier 3 item barely eeks out a bit more AP (10) and manages to score 150 health over the t2 support item. That being said the t2 item still let you generate ward and also gave a bit of on hit damage (though not enough to balance out the 10 AP in all likelyhood) and you got it MUCH earlier in the game so it was making an impact on your games sooner. I would much rather prefer having the tier 2 frostfang in my games than the new support item. Edit: I can't seem to find it but maybe you could, do you have any idea what the average time for hitting t3 spellthiefs is? im just curious because it'd also be interesting to compare how long you have to wait for the stats you get from t3 vs the immediate CDR and manaregen you get to cast spells to poke/harass or sustain in lane.
: As a non-Tank Support (old Eye of Frost vs new Shard of True Ice), you do lose CDR and mana regen worth less than 600g (not 800), but you ALSO gain 40 AP and 150 HP worth 1270g, for a net change of more than 600g in your favor on stats alone. Add to that the the new tiers 3 Shard only cost the 400g of the starting item whereas the old tiers 2 Frostfang was already 850g, just tiers 2, and you get to a grand total of 1100g, even for non-Tank supports who never upgraded to tiers 3.
10% CDR is worth 800-900 gold, (900 gold in fiendish codex, and 800 in kindle gem) Fiendish also makes up the missing AP but does nothing for the mana regen so I say 800 as the gold value of lost stats. Also you get t3 shard FAR later into the game than t2 shard which is still objectively worth. EDIT for more detail t2 frost fang (Old) - 10% CDR, 50% mana regen, and 20 AP t2 frost fang (New) - 15 AP and 70 HP t3 frost fang (New) - 60 AP and 150 HP. You're trading 5 AP, 50% mana regen and 10% CDR for 70 HP at rank 2 which is straight up awful, ontop of that mana regen synergies with grail so you're losing out on the scaling from that. Plus the bonus damage on spells and autos. The final tier isn't even objectively better either, 150 HP isn't super meaningful on an enchanter, you'll still get blown up. Most people would MUCH prefer the CDR, additional mana regen works with grail late game so you get AP back (10 flat) so if you're a grail user your only really gaining 30 AP? even less if you're a transcendence user capping off of bonus CDR. But those are all what if scenarios, its just sad that you an't definitively say the FINAL FORM of the new support item is better than the tier 2 form of the old one.
DeusVult (NA)
: "the new support items are bad" fallacy
"old would give 2,100 gold but cost another 1,400 to fully upgrade" no it cost 450 gold to upgrade bc no one went to t3. So we're talking about 1,700 gold vs 600 gold given from the new item (after subtracting the 400 it takes to purchase.) ALSO the 600 gold from the new item has to go back to the 800G in stats thats we're losing. So for enchanters this is 100% a hard nerf even without factoring in the loss of bonus poke dmg.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsAnQy1v,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-01T04:10:48.196+0000) > > Literally tho, if enchanters or tank supports were even remotely decent right now. Or god forbid a zyra or brand had the mana regen to lane botlane? That champion wouldn't exist right now, it'd be on a grey screen for the next 15 minutes. Tank Supports are not weak. https://i.gyazo.com/d55443570ecd08521f942f1e708dfd8e.png https://i.gyazo.com/659e9e40b2fb7a4a0c6c508894139d8c.png https://i.gyazo.com/4311b3defbbd90bb7bc0169bebde7a58.png {{champion:53}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:111}} are the strongest supports you can play right now and have been for the majority of Season 9.   Enchanters are not weak either. {{champion:40}} - 53.40% win rate with a 7.3% play rate. {{champion:16}} - 52.58% win rate with a 5.5% pick rate. {{champion:267}} - 51.28% win rate with a 7.5% pick rate. {{champion:117}} - 50.54% win rate with a 6.5% pick rate. {{champion:37}} - 50.19% win rate with a 1.9% pick rate (rightfully so, she's too squishy for a meta dominated by Leo, Blitz and Naut) And Yuumi deserves to be trash.
Theyre weaker compared to when they bought the other items, obviously there winrate hasn't dropped bc there isn't a class who can reliably replace them, except well AD supports i suppose. Like Senna who obviously does very well, then gain shes slightly over tuned so its w/e.
: If that rant is about the new starting items for support... They're not really nerfs overall. A slight nerf before your first back, but as soon as you back once and can spend that 450g on something else than your item upgrade, you're ahead.
you lose 800 gold in stats (10% CDR and mana regen) and save 600 gold. Unless you were a tank support you never upgraded to tier 3 since only 600 saved. Plus u don't gain gold latler and u get those spikes later while making less gold early ;/
: Support Items were overhauled this season. Support items cost 400g and you don't need to buy upgrades for them. To compensate the fact you now save 1000g since you don't have to buy upgrades, the items received hefty nerfs. So now if you play a Mage/Enchanter Support, you'll need to manage your mana until you buy one of the following: {{item:3114}} {{item:3028}} {{item:3070}} {{item:3802}} Having the Manaflow Band or Presence of Mind runes help out since they are a good source of mana as well. ------------- Only real gripe I have with them is the Income Reduction being active after the item is complete. By late game, you might have to clear waves & you just get punished for doing so since you get reduced gold the more you farm.
*save 600g, and lose 800g worth of stats :D
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YL6bpilf,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-01T15:16:48.172+0000) > > Her Q is actually better than Sona W provided They’re both hitting their adc. That’s true at early ranks atleast, Sona also can’t spam W in pi lane w/o going oom and if the issue with her power budget is auras then there’s obvious work arounds. (Like the aura giving a net amount of stats then being divided amongst champions in the aura/recently in it) or the auras being stronger early (for lane) but getting nerfs late where she’s strong I mean, tear + presence of mind + manaflow band will completely negate sona's reliance on mana, and can freely spam away. It wont negate the loss of damage from loss of support item damage, but balancing is still ongoing, so that point should be held off for a bit, given senna is literally the only champion balanced for this patch currently. And yeah, there are ways they can potentially deal with sona's massively bloated budget into auras, which will always feel useless even when they are ungodly powerful, but again, thats them needing to rework territory. Sona is balanced around having all auras up on 5 champions at all times, because its easy to do so. Senna's Q/R is realistically balanced around 1 or 2 enemies hit, and 1, maybe 2 allies hit (plus herself) for Q and probably 4 allies for ult, just because its rare youd really get the optimal 5 ally 5 enemy Q/R hit.
levels 1-6 sona is realistically only going to get herself and her ADC, MAYBE the jungler in her auras. So it doesn't make sense she'd be balanced around that early game. Also, prescence of mind require you to take objectively worse secondary ruins and tear forces you to build away from the heal/shield power that you need. A weakness senna doesn't have bc her heals scale with AD and not just AP / healshield power.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LuthianDelphi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YL6bpilf,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-12-01T03:50:54.119+0000) > > Senna Q is just barely worse than nami W and much safer to use, compared to the other enchanters who can heal in lane its objectively better. Don't believe me lets do the math? > > Lets take Sona for example > > > Sona- Heals with W, costs 80 mana and heals 30 rank one, and shields for 25. The heal can hit 2 targets (One has to be sona) and the shield is realisitcally only going to hit her and her adc in the early game). This means that with rank 1 W sona can produce a 'net health difference' of 55 on any one target, if shes in a 2v2 she can make a 'net health difference' of up to 110 (assuming all damage is distributed evenly breaking both shields which is highly unlikely) > > Now lets look at Senna... > > Senna does 40 HP and healing and 50 damage to whoever her E is hit by. Much like Sona her Q will always hit herself. This means that Senna can make a 'nethealth' difference' of 90 in a 1v1 where its just her and another target, in a 2v2 setting Senna can make a net health difference of either (90, 130, 180) depending on if her both members of the enemy botlane are hit and her ADC (Unlikely) or if she hits her ADC and the enemy ADC (Not unreasonable in coordinated play). > > Now knowing this it may seems that sona and senna are roughly = in a 2v2, afterall 130-110 isn't awful especially when the 110 is more reliable. Well no, because Senna gets q level 1 and Sona can't even take her W till level 2. This means Senna will have either her W for a AOE root, or her E for stealthing, movespeed, or general utility. Additionally the Senna W does the same damage at rank 1 as Sona Q at rank 2. Because she can take it early and has so many other power outlets in her kit its clear that Senna's Q is better. > > > This clearly ignores some factors, mainly Sona's powercord and her Q hitting two targets and the onhit damage from the auto it provides. However its kind of difficult to calculate the value of Senna's passive considering A) all the stats it gives and B) the actual value of the % health damage changes from champion to champion and based on starting item choices because its max HP damage. That being said the lowest CD in Sona's kit is 8 second and the fastest is 10s, she must cast 3 spells for a powercord so unless she has one prepped and is casting another the quickest she can use her passive early is 8 seconds around 10 seconds (if she uses her Q W and E) or 18 seconds (if she goes Q W Q). Senna's passive is on target CD so she can use it once on the AD and support and refreshes every 4 seconds. ADDITIONALLY Sona has to choose to use her passive for damage or utility where Senna utility is freely given to her in her W and E along WITH her damage on the Q and passive. Even at level 6 i'd say AOE CC and global map pressure with nearly GP like levels of agency are about even. > > This kinda devolved into an analysis of Sona VS Senna as a whole more than just there W's but I think the points fairly well explained. Senna is objectively stronger, theres FAR more power in her kit especially early game and unlike Sona theres very little if any trade off for it. If I had to suggest a fix I'd turn her passive damage into % current hp, and change her Q healing on herself. Make Senna's Q heal her for a % of healing done to allied champions. if She q's you in a trade and ONLY you she doesn't heal period. If she q's her ADC for 40 HP she heals 20. I think it'd make her alot healthier to play against and more skill expressive. If we are talking about kit power, sona has more just because of auras. Senna is better in reality because her power budget is budgeted well, where as sona has been repeatedly nerfed to keep her auras. Sona has needed a full rework and redirection for years. That being said, sona is still the better healer, as her heals are a much lower CD and raw power than sennas. Sennas heal is theoretically better in a world where she constantly hits 4 team members and gets to auto every time she can, but thats not realistic.
Her Q is actually better than Sona W provided They’re both hitting their adc. That’s true at early ranks atleast, Sona also can’t spam W in pi lane w/o going oom and if the issue with her power budget is auras then there’s obvious work arounds. (Like the aura giving a net amount of stats then being divided amongst champions in the aura/recently in it) or the auras being stronger early (for lane) but getting nerfs late where she’s strong
Nebuul (NA)
: Diana's new R has thematic inconsistency
It'd also feel kinda of clunky to have the set up for your gap closer on ability that already brings them to you. The Q makes sense, you hit a target far away and leap to them, but whats the point of leaping to someone you're already onto? Yah, it gives her more damage and sticking potential sure, but it'd still feel kinda bad I'd think.
: A Senna Main's Perspective on What to do with Senna
I like the idea you have for the stacking nerf though the Q nerf is kind of eh, it just pushes down numbers and doesn't fix the issue of her not having to use her main healing ability for healing. As it stands right now she can just use it as a self heal to help her hyper carry fights, Imo it should heal Senna for a % of healing done to allied champions. Either 50 flat or (40/45/50/55/60)% of healing done to allies. This would encourage her to build items like grail and it'd also reward her heavily for hitting multiple allies with her Q rather than just 1 enemy.
: Sennas designer
Literally tho, if enchanters or tank supports were even remotely decent right now. Or god forbid a zyra or brand had the mana regen to lane botlane? That champion wouldn't exist right now, it'd be on a grey screen for the next 15 minutes.
Rioter Comments
Pika Fox (NA)
: Soraka has much better healing power, as well as an AoE silence.... and innately boosted heal power while people being healed are low on HP. Soraka is a MUCH better healer than senna, who is split between heal/shield and damage, doing neither well but both adequately. Also of note; Senna's heal/shields are skillshots.... and as we all know from playing lux.... players will do their best to dodge your defensive skillshots.
Senna Q is just barely worse than nami W and much safer to use, compared to the other enchanters who can heal in lane its objectively better. Don't believe me lets do the math? Lets take Sona for example Sona- Heals with W, costs 80 mana and heals 30 rank one, and shields for 25. The heal can hit 2 targets (One has to be sona) and the shield is realisitcally only going to hit her and her adc in the early game). This means that with rank 1 W sona can produce a 'net health difference' of 55 on any one target, if shes in a 2v2 she can make a 'net health difference' of up to 110 (assuming all damage is distributed evenly breaking both shields which is highly unlikely) Now lets look at Senna... Senna does 40 HP and healing and 50 damage to whoever her E is hit by. Much like Sona her Q will always hit herself. This means that Senna can make a 'nethealth' difference' of 90 in a 1v1 where its just her and another target, in a 2v2 setting Senna can make a net health difference of either (90, 130, 180) depending on if her both members of the enemy botlane are hit and her ADC (Unlikely) or if she hits her ADC and the enemy ADC (Not unreasonable in coordinated play). Now knowing this it may seems that sona and senna are roughly = in a 2v2, afterall 130-110 isn't awful especially when the 110 is more reliable. Well no, because Senna gets q level 1 and Sona can't even take her W till level 2. This means Senna will have either her W for a AOE root, or her E for stealthing, movespeed, or general utility. Additionally the Senna W does the same damage at rank 1 as Sona Q at rank 2. Because she can take it early and has so many other power outlets in her kit its clear that Senna's Q is better. This clearly ignores some factors, mainly Sona's powercord and her Q hitting two targets and the onhit damage from the auto it provides. However its kind of difficult to calculate the value of Senna's passive considering A) all the stats it gives and B) the actual value of the % health damage changes from champion to champion and based on starting item choices because its max HP damage. That being said the lowest CD in Sona's kit is 8 second and the fastest is 10s, she must cast 3 spells for a powercord so unless she has one prepped and is casting another the quickest she can use her passive early is 8 seconds around 10 seconds (if she uses her Q W and E) or 18 seconds (if she goes Q W Q). Senna's passive is on target CD so she can use it once on the AD and support and refreshes every 4 seconds. ADDITIONALLY Sona has to choose to use her passive for damage or utility where Senna utility is freely given to her in her W and E along WITH her damage on the Q and passive. Even at level 6 i'd say AOE CC and global map pressure with nearly GP like levels of agency are about even. This kinda devolved into an analysis of Sona VS Senna as a whole more than just there W's but I think the points fairly well explained. Senna is objectively stronger, theres FAR more power in her kit especially early game and unlike Sona theres very little if any trade off for it. If I had to suggest a fix I'd turn her passive damage into % current hp, and change her Q healing on herself. Make Senna's Q heal her for a % of healing done to allied champions. if She q's you in a trade and ONLY you she doesn't heal period. If she q's her ADC for 40 HP she heals 20. I think it'd make her alot healthier to play against and more skill expressive.
: [Aurelion Sol] 100% chance bug
Rioter Comments
: Lets be real his burst relies on htting that Q .
Yes he has to hit the Q, but hitting his Q is far less conditional than "the target being poisoned, the target being at the edge of your stars, the target being in your soldiers". Ryze has DPS thats less conditional, does more burst on initial rotation, and requires less items to be effective than any other DPS mage.
: Ryze in high elo has no counterplay
he's a rapid fire DPS mage who has a burst mages damage, his single rotation damage should be more in line with Cassiopeia or Azirs (both high damage but not insanely bursty.) As it stands right now Ryze can hit you with 1 empowered Q and chunk you for most your HP, its simply too much. He also doesn't have the same damage gates as most DPS mages, (Cassio needs poison, Azir needs soldiers in range, Old Asol needed to kite on stars) his DPS is by far the LEAST conditional of all of those and his burst is much higher. He can be a burst mage or a DPS mage but please don't let him be both.
: What's one thing that Riot did right or you like?
Anivia, shes a good champ that doesnt feel awful to play against. Even when I die to her or watch her ace my team I never think "Wow that champs busted" I think "Wow, how did we misplay that bad". Would be nice to see more champs designed similarly to her in terms of how her Q and E interact.
: Characters we hate and why
{{champion:157}} What I dislike?: He offers way to much safety in lane and scales hard, he wins skirmishes with solid damage early while having many options for passive play (Windwall, passive shield, and AOE lifesteal on Q). It feels like he wins both through attrition and in a straight up fight against most mages midlane for little reason. What I'd Change?: I'd remove the AOE lifesteal on his Q or nerf it in a way similar to how riot nerfed the healing on caitlyns head shots. How does this change Yasuo's playstyle?: This change would make yasuo more susceptible to early game poke and force him to take longer/more extended early game trades where he can out DPS the enemy mages burst and prevent passive play where the yasuo loses the trade but simply waits for the enemy to run out of mana while he heals up behind windwall and passive safety.
: When will Riot admit that modern assassins are too forgiving?
> [{quoted}](name=FederationFurry,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-11T15:48:49.342+0000) > > Considering that most assassin players have mobility to get both in and out of a fight (something most other champion classes don't have). When will Riot admit that this class is still way too forgiving to play? > > > Assassins **_SHOULD_** be: High Risk/High Reward _**NOT**_ Low Risk/High Reward as they are now. > The thing that separates Assassins from divers like {{champion:102}} and {{champion:164}} is that theyre less tanky and that they have the mobility to get out of a fight. If you remove their disengage theyre effectively no longer assassins its part of the core identity of the class, an Assassin should be able to kill you if they get on you in a fight OR damage you enough to force you to disengage while being able to escape. The risk and reward with Assassins doesn't come in a 1v1 fight it comes in game pace, if the assassin doesn't roam to get ahead or kill you in lane they fall off in team fights and won't be relevant come the mid-late game. The Assassin should always be able to win early game vs a mage in lane because if they can't they don't have any period of time where they can win the game. If there was an issue with assassins as a class it'd be that their engage range is too big in some cases. What im talking about here is basically zed or pyke coming in with Yohmuus and Ghost and then w'ing or e'ing ontop of you respectively. As a squishy your counter play to the assassin is to re-locate behind your tank or out of jump range so that you don't die. Alot of the mobility items in the game can end up making that a whole lot less practical for someone in a real game but thats more of an issue with items than anything. final PSA, why does {{item:3147}} Do massive damage on auto, reveal wards, AND apply a 99% slow. Every assassin in the game who builds it has a stun or slow {{champion:555}} Stun, Slow, Pull, {{champion:238}} has a slow {{champion:91}} Has a slow {{champion:107}} has a root and a slow {{champion:121}} Has a slow, they don't count but even {{champion:64}} and {{champion:62}} have their own slows. We don't need to give them another one with an item, its hard enough to disengage the assassin once theyre on you, the 99% slow just kind of gives them the win ;/ atleast make them work for it. Let the item do a 10th of my HP, after blacking out the vision on my mini-map thats fine. For christ sakes though don't let it slow me aswell smh.
: >they have never been changed because they bring in the big bucks of LCS Could you please provide list of how many assassins is being played in proplay compared to other classes? Also, you will say something like "No need to play them all, these few can provide enough flashy plays", which is of course subjective and any good play, be it good Azirs R, Sejus R, majority of allins by adcs, good pick by any skirmish, good engages could be called flashy play... Here is incomplete list for ya, classes might be little bit mixed up, but it's ok. Bruisers - {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:126}} Tanks - {{champion:201}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:79}}{{champion:12}} {{champion:106}} Adcs - {{champion:81}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:110}} Assassins - {{champion:84}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:555}} Mages - {{champion:268}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:8}} Enchanter - {{champion:350}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:497}}
Both {{champion:497}} and {{champion:43}} are catchers I believe and {{champion:350}} is only really good in high Elo because for some reason people can't seem to understand using her passive is important. {{champion:517}} is an AP bruiser not an Assassin Imo which is actually really impressive because other champs meant ti be AP bruisers {{champion:3}} or {{champion:131}} usually just end up going full tank/assassin so honestly probs to riot on designing him well enough to make it work. Not saying Assassins are to strong, I don't even really watch pro play. Just pointing out some of the false information.
Cloud273 (NA)
: So you guys are ok with assassins having extreme safety but when Yasuo has it everyone b*tches. I see how it is...
Assassins fall off late game and aren't DPS champs AND burst champs.
: Instead of overbuffing Sylas, can you like maybe add AP Bruiser itemization?
An item that gave like a little bit of attack speed, health and AP would be nice. Then the passive could have a small ap ratio similar to nashors tooth than gives armor / mr instead of on hit based on AP. Similar to Tri force but w/ out the spellblade effect and gives defensive stats instead.
Emo Twink (OCE)
: Can Yasuo Get Some Removals like Irelia/Akali?
Things to consider about Yasuo Q- AOE crit, Aoe Lifesteal, (Even if reduced after first hit), on hit damage, CD lowers with attack speed, and turns into a knock up on third cast. W- Annoying and the hit box seems bs sometimes but actually probably the most simple ability with the least tag-ons in his kit. E- Does magic damage, more damage after casting multiple times (capped), and faster with his MS. R- Passive reset, turret safety built in, Gap closer, 200 base damage level one with a 175% AD ratio (Does 312 damage lvl 6 before armor), a 15 second armor pen buff on crit strikes. Other than the REALLY specific tricks in his kit like being able to ult at the last second of his Q to increase the knockup duration with ulti, or being able to Q while a target is knocked up, ult, and then Q again why does yasuo need this many parts to each ability? Removing the AOE crit and lifesteal on the Q seems reasonable, during the E into physical damage seems reasonable, removing the turret assist and shield reset on yas's ult seems reasonable (you could probably even reduce the duration on the buff tbh), and not giving him a 175% AD ratio on his ult when he already does tons of DPS and doesn't need burst seems reasonable. honestly tho I think the healthiest idea would be to remove Yas's double crit passive, the armor pen on crit from his ult, the AS scaling on his Q, Then he would build things like Triforce that give CDR health and AS. His spikes would take longer to reach so he can't just get a zeal and dominate lane and he would be getting stats that make sure he doesn't get instantly blown up too. If the first two items a champ gets are ADC items like PD and IE then they're either going to be WAY to squishy to do their damage, do tons of damage and just not be squishy because of base stats or some other reason (Yasuos base stats, his W, and his passive getting a reset, and AOE lifesteal all making him hard to kill), or they're going to do way to much damage but then be so squishy its just like a suicide bomber that no one really cares about. Right now yas is forced into building crit items because he gets so much gold efficiency from them in the form of his passive and Q AS scaling CDR, changing that I think would be the first step to making him a healthier champion.
D4M2X0 (EUW)
: full AD = high chance of winning, full ap = autolose
I mean, if your a mage theres not alot of MR options but for the most part this post is right. MR Options for non-tanks: Enchanters: {{item:3111}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3222}} maybe {{item:3190}} ADC's: {{item:3111}} {{item:3139}} maybe {{item:3091}} and/or {{item:3156}} Bruisers/Divers/AD assassins: {{item:3111}} {{item:3156}} (Tho hexdrinker is just really good early, and the first two in this catagory can by tank items late so keep that in mind) Short Range/Battle Mages:{{item:3111}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3102}} Generic Mages: {{item:3111}} {{item:3102}} ---- Of these classes really only Generic mages suffer, banshees is hard to rush and Merc treads are a big sacrifice when sorc boots exist--- Conversely if we look at armor options for non-tanks Enchanters: {{item:3047}} and maybe {{item:3190}} {{item:3109}} OR {{item:3025}} if your {{champion:37}}. (Really Knightsvow and locket on most enchanters isn't ideal but Im gonna try and be inclusive) ADC's: {{item:3047}} {{item:3026}} and {{item:3025}} if your {{champion:81}} Bruisers/Divers/AD Assassins: {{item:3047}} {{item:3026}} Short Range/Battle Mages: {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} (You can buy seekers early but compared to hexdrinker its ehh tho Zhonyas > Maw) Generic mages: {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} -Of these classes Enchanters and ADC's struggle to build armor and Mages only really have 2 items to do so and lose a pen item- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Even after all this though i think a couple things are important to note A) Armor tank items definitely > MR tank items B) AD champs *Generally* have to commit more to going in than mages, this means that it should be *Slightly* easier for them to take down a target because they have less chances to do so. C) MR items are in general more easily built early in a than build than armor items on Non-Tanks. Its not so much that AD armor pen items are all broken or OP, its that with things like lethality removing flat armor it feels more impact bc the armor options for most classes just aren't rush able. Tabi's is less than ideal on mages and ADC's but sometimes its a sacrifice to make, even so its not viable to expect the ADC to rush GA when they need core items to function. Im not disagreeing w/ the post, I just thought this might be helpful to put some things into perspective. If im missing anything feel free to comment.
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Katarina & Evelynn
katarina - "Aoe Assassin". That probably shouldn't exist to be blunt, hyper mobile champs designed to go in and out and to kill a squishy target is an assassin, if that assassin is killing multiple people instead of being mainly single target it just amplifies the whole issue of playing against assassins being unfun in general. Then again that kind her entire design and gameplay fantasy soooooooooo kinda a mute point.
: I've been saying for years Sona *needs* a game change. Her kit is confusing for a support and she's not really great at one specific thing. Riot needs to decide what direction to take Sona into. Poke support, sustain support, teamfight support, etc. I had a Rioter reply to one of my Sona threads once and he said they don't plan on giving Sona much depth or decision making abilities since she's an easy to pick up support and they don't want to change that. [Source](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BKpArcZr-riot-can-we-add-depth-to-sona)
"not being good at one specific thing" is sona's thing, shes a jack of all trades with clear weaknesses (Squishy and a long CD but impactful ulti), shes the only support that wants to "survive lane" and she scales hard enough that shes going to make more impact than any other support (Unless shes like 0/4) at the 3, or maybe even 2 item and boots mark. Also, her being easy to play and more simple in that regard is part of her allure, id personally hate to see that go ;/
: What do you know, Ahri back up to highest playrate AND winrate midlane in Plat+
ahri is by far the best assassin to play against imo, you can dodge her E and Q atleast and while her R and W auto target the range is pretty small, i feel like I have alot more chances to outplay ahri than say talon, katarina, zed, even diana (Not saying any of those champs are OP or don't have clear weaknesses, im just saying ahri seems a bit more fair to play against), ontop of that in a high dmg meta where assassins are kinda good doesnt it make sense ahri would do well? shes the safest assassin objectively and has a bit of utility so it makes sense her ranking should be high-ish atm, and ofc theres always the fun bit where she doesnt build duskblade.... xD. Also, when i checked ahri wasn't that high up (I used op.gg) but maybe i missed an option or your using a different sight, thats not really the point of my comment tho.
: Remove Akali's stun from her ultimate.
i mean, it could honestly just be a silence or a silence w/ a slow but its so small i dont see why it needs to be changed.
: Pick malzahar. She is already dead. Who cares about sissy bubbles when you have the strongest shield in league history ..I mean look at how broken he is compared to Zoe and how he counters her in every aspect.
{{champion:25}} Midlane with corrupting pot start is always comical, just spam W wave shove her in so she can't roam, get free harass while doing it with luden/aery/scorch/ if she trys to ulti Q her, and if she trys to E her click E first
: Wu and Quinn are not assassins though you are not an assassin just because you have duskblade.
tbh, idk what else to call quinn but most people consider wukong a 'Diver' but his current gameplay (one shot and get out) mirrors that of an assassin, the only exception being if he ults to provide CC in a team fight, but even then he tends to ult kill a few people and get out to wait for cd's
: Lol so you specifically talking about ad assassins right? Arent the only two meta ad assassins Zed and Talon? Zed is the only tier 1 ad assassin according to op.gg, http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics. No one in the lcs will play an assassin they arent good in pro-play. The people spreading this idea are mage mains who are mad that they are not dominate in the mid lane anymore.
wukong and quinn aswell, rengar/kha/shaco aren't exactally bad, well maybe kha is but ehhh more or less just jungle AD assasins that arent good atm. Oh and dont forget pyke hes good.
: can we buff warding?
Its kinda worse atm than usual, just to many assassins running about so you end up having far more duskblades clearing wards than you usually do (Up to 4 per team if you got pyke, assassin mid, assassin jungle, and like quinn or something top although thats unlikely). Its an issue that will probably fix itself once the meta changes.
: Half of those champions can easily bypass it. The fact that you included Azir and Karthus is a clear show about how much you don't know about the skill, litterally nothing of them gets blocked (except Karthus AA I guess).
he stops azir from repositioning his warriors actually
: Tell me your 3 most played champions and I will tell you your personality and greatest fear.
: > [{quoted}](name=Reaper Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ztab4V1,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-07-26T18:39:41.326+0000) > > We've lost contact of what 100-0 means nowadays. It's thrown around like people understand it. > > 100-0's have pretty much ended. Nidalee javelins for 1500 that literally took an adc's health from 100% to 0% is a 100-0 > A level 3 talon who does aa-qwe-aa ignite is not a 100-0. Except you don't use the E on talon and you don't need an AA before the WQ to even kill someone with an ignite and passive. W+Q+auto already procs electrocute and the auto after that is just to ensure the kill with passive after ignite is applied. But people who complain about Talon have obviously not tried to abuse him with Lux, Anivia, or Karma as those 3 champs alone make his laning miserable. Ahri after hitting lv6 also shits on Talon.
Karma is more of a support than a mid laner, lux isnt even that good atm?, and anivia isnt a very common pick you see talon WAY more often. You shouldnt balance a champ around there bad matchups, buff them if its way to over the top you should balance them around the type of match ups theyre generally fighting ;/. Every champ has 2-3 counter picks that will make life miserable its not really an excuse ;/
: Who are your favorite champs what do you think they would do if they found a world rune?
{{champion:37}} put it on a necklace, wrap it around her neck and give herself a voice
Sandixcx (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gmtqgqxY,comment-id=0006000000000002,timestamp=2018-07-24T23:50:50.994+0000) > > No, he doesn't. All the other assassins are married to melee range to do more than 50% a target's health. Zed does not. > > If you're a Talon or Fizz and you go into a teamfight, there is no shadow to get back out off. You deal the damage or you die. Zed gets immunity frames and 2 fucking teleports on top of his way better AD scaling than Talon, Ekko, or Fizz. > > Zed also deals way more damage to tanks thanks to the death mark mechanic. Try dueling tanks as Talon or Fizz and tell me that they have an easier time than Zed does. I think his abilities are healthy it's just the damage he does Back in s6 or s7 when he wasn't overpowered with all the duskblade crap I'd feel like there was something I could do because his damage came from ulting and then landing all of his abilities. Now he can throw it out every 10 seconds with QWE and if I don't dodge all of it I have to back.
well if you look at most assassins Leblanc, talon q (Not E but conditional?), Akali, leblanc, Kat, fizz, AD or AP their mobility tends to be tied to one of their main damage sources, like akali dashing in, or leblanc wing in, or Fizz hitting u with playful trickster/his Q, where as zed isnt so he doesnt lose damage for using his mobility to run or evade you. I mean yah he might not be in auto range? so maybe thats something but in general hes less tied to it than other assassins. Not a bad thing just food for thought.
Rexxiee (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=wildfox99,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i8yW8Fvy,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-19T18:54:28.160+0000) > > yea a champion abuse a machanic so all other champions have to suffer for it > > just nerf trynda,AP damage on towers is fine Trynd is not the only example of this. Just look at every mage going bot lane and replacing adc, the thing is that they are doing comparable damage if not more than adcs to towers, and ppl wonder why towers are crumbling over, before it used to be the ADC job to kill them, now everything including ap champs (who are not supposed to be good at tower taking) just 2 shot them.
AD's still generally push faster the AP's unless its an AP known for pushing like Diana, ziggs, hiemer. and even then theres AD's who push faster than those 3.
: Just played Akali - Here are my thoughts:
i actually kinda like the new shroud, because its in a donut shape you know that if akali is in the shroud and planning on attacking you theres a very limited space of that donut she can be in. she doesnt have move speed in it anymore either so hopefully shes easier to hit? I havent played against it yet but it looks nice to me. The turret not being able to see her really sucks but at the same time her 2 main damage skills reveal her and are both skill shots so hopefully its manageable? we'll probs know more once we play against it more tho.
: Kat can take Hexdrinker already or Maw if she really needs to. Her build often has a Morellonomicon, Zhonya's, and a Liandry's in some matchups. In my opinion, Katarina has some massive advantages over many other mid laners at the moment just because she is able to adapt her build in terms of defensive stats with relative ease. If you have a rough laning phase against something like Fizz or LeBlanc, pick up a Hexdrinker and start building towards your Gunblade. Follow up on this with Sorc. Shoes and Morello's, and you're pretty difficult to take down in AP matchups. It also helps to take Nullifying Orb. For an AD matchup, start Cloth+4, take resolve secondary, get your Seeker's if you aren't ahead, then build into Gunblade and finish your Zhonya's, then build as you normally would. *Trust me*, Kat would be able to abuse the HELL out of this. This item screams the return of tank Katarina, which is not something that anyone wants to see. Even then, these items are incredibly busted. Each time I kept reading further, I just thought "There's MORE to it?" I would buy this on literally every champion, even if they didn't have AP scales. The gold value is immense and the passive is just so absurdly broken.
I think your miss reading the passive? or maybe I am. As i understand it the passive has 2 conditions A) you have to be bursted within a certain period of time to trigger the effect B) your getting 40% or 80% of 50% of your current max HP from the shield. -depending on the item tier- or in simple terms 20% of your max HP or 40%. This means on tanks that stack health it would be immensely difficult to proc bc its unlikely youd be bursted that fast (Unless your being hard focused but thats the enemy team misplaying) or your squishy enough to proc it but the shield is smaller because of your lower base HP). That doesnt really sound broken to me and it has an innate punishment for tanks who decide to build the item ontop of offering AP instead of health making it very in-efficent cost wise? the orbs could definitly be excessive tho.
: if i rush {{item:3157}} , my mana pool is lower than that one of a poppy if i dont rush {{item:3157}} , i will get dived 100-0 and theres nothing i can do about it until i get {{item:3157}} {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
{{item:3191}}+ {{item:3802}} = Win
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LuthianDelphi

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