lRubickl (NA)
: Do you mean Guinsoo? Phreak was never on the design behind dota 1. That was Eul and Guinsoo.
Oh, my bad. Getting old ;p Is Guinsoo gone now? Phreak did used to do balance, right? Just not on DOTA1? The game now seems so imbalanced compared to a few years ago. It seems like the design team changed their direction to try and make it good for upper level play while making it terrible for everything else since most people don't have and never will have botlane mechanics like DoubleLift and just die to ganks/get dived at pre-6 because towers are so weak.
: "Mages should run out of mana if they cast constantly in long fights"
Yes it is absolutely late game mage influence that makes early game bot lane snowball meta absolutely fucking retarded. Yeah. Right. Instead of Phreak doing eSports hype shit get him back on the balance team. I played wc3 dota and have played with lol since beta. This game is out of fucking whack. Instead of having an endless congo line of interns destroying it, get the guy who designed the original game to fix it. He had a great idea of balancing champions that carried league to what it is now. The problem is that he's a figurehead for the premium content salespeople instead of the guy who knows what mobas are supposed to be. He invented the fucking genre. Get him back in the design chair.
: That's a bit weird, since matchmaking is Riot's gig, not the players' gig. Could you please clarify what you mean?
The new report meta is to report everyone because everyone deserves to be punished if I don't have fun.
Xidphel (NA)
: >Someone did a thing so you guys being unrelated to the troll are 1000% at fault.
i agree pls give me free rp riot ;_;
Hibeki (NA)
: Its official boys, the Reddit has admitted to fascism and censorship
I've been playing this game since beta. They have made it too easy to rage at people because now one lane can literally lose a game. I didnt rage for the first three or four years of playing. I took a break because of school. After, what would have gotten me a week ban became a 10 chat then 25 chat, then 14,then permaban. I only play ranked. I was harsh because that is how ranked is. After rerolling I still don't rage in normals. They staffed their FAQ team with people who don't play ranked. It's fucked up and I won't advertise this game to anyone or pay a cent into it unless they admit their IFS system is fucked and doesn't belong in ranked. Hate speech is inexcusable but flaming bad plays is a part of the ranked ladder game. It's bullshit they've ever tried to treat it otherwise. The only reason the streaming community exists is because of people like HotShotGG or SaintVicious, neither of whom would flame in anything but soloQ but made this company millions by streaming. Maybe that move works in Korea but if you're wondering why nobody in NA can compete it's because you suffocate anyone who gives a shit about the outcome of their games. And you're pitting who doesn't have that aggression against people who learned micro on fucking starcraft as a national sport. League pub was broken before and it's now the worst it has ever been because you think toxicity is undeserved when it really is deserved in all ranks if someone is fucking off to the point where people can't have a decent game and meet others who give a shit about their plays.
Sadolm (EUW)
: <offensive title targeted at riot, likely written by a 12 year old>
: I am probably alone in this but id like to see a gameplay rework for him that moved him away from his wow warrior parody playstyle.
> [{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iBepJ3XW,comment-id=001f00000000,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:07:55.565+0000) > > his wow warrior parody playstyle. http://i.imgur.com/FUAPhOu.jpg
: > [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=iATm5iYt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-17T04:08:06.015+0000) > > The jungler is not obligated to gank any lane at all. They are the **jungler** - not the **ganker**. > > You are not entitled to any ganks from anyone in the game - they&#x27;re allowed to play their role the way they best see fit. If you&#x27;re not winning lane, it&#x27;s likely better for them to just farm and help other lanes. Why should they spend time potentially getting behind themselves just to help you when you can&#x27;t even help yourself? When it gets to the point that they are verbally stating ignoring my lane, that’s ignoring me as a team member. If jungle isn’t obligated to help ALL lanes provided, even ones who need a boost, then I’m not obligated to play any role as seen meta. Players should suddenly be allowed to play Support top then I suppose, if that’s how “I think we’ll win the game.” Or 2 jungles, no mid at all, one to take top and one bot, cause that’s “what I see fit to win the game.” Do you get my point? Either scenario hits a lane drastically. There’s a reason champions counter other champions as well, to get an advantage in lane. If that wasn’t the case, then helping a lane wouldn’t be to help a summoner get back on their feet, but to put a champion at much higher advantage than the enemy laner. For instance, Zed facing Lux. Who has the advantage? Zed, of course. Well now let’s completely balance him out to be on Lux’s level. Same spell damage, everything. Now the lane is even and no one has any advantage right, cause Zed and Lux are even. Throw in jungle Vi: she comes along and instantly throws a 2v1 advantage over Zed cause he simply doesn’t have any ability in his kit to advance himself to beat a 2v1. He isn’t fed so what makes him better than Vi and Lux together? Jungle isn’t their to make things an “advantage” but to help someone get a kick start from their downfall. If jungle can’t do that to provide for the team, then jungle should be obsolete from the game.
You actually got downvoted and I'm upvoting you because what you're saying is completely correct, with or without verbal confirmation from a bad jungler that they are ignoring your lane. Every single moderator or whatever they are called on this board seems to be completely oblivious to ranked meta style play. That makes their input pretty much worthless if the "toxicity" in question involves anything to do with meta, and the fact Riot continuously ignores that there is a difference between playing ARAM vs Ranked Draft makes it all the more infuriating. If I played with these guys in blind pick or normal draft I would be polite as hell to them. In ranked? If they played in ranked queue with the apparent understanding they have of ranked meta I would tell them to get out of ranked because they don't know enough about it. yet somehow they're supposed to be judging player behavior from that game mode. okay. and if I tell them they're out of their element, my account which I pour hours and money into should be more at risk of getting banned than the people who have no idea how to play the game, competitively, deciding to queue into a competitive game mode. Fix. Your. Shit. Riot.
Chermorg (NA)
: The jungler is not obligated to gank any lane at all. They are the **jungler** - not the **ganker**. You are not entitled to any ganks from anyone in the game - they're allowed to play their role the way they best see fit. If you're not winning lane, it's likely better for them to just farm and help other lanes. Why should they spend time potentially getting behind themselves just to help you when you can't even help yourself?
Do you even play ranked as a jungler at all? This is a bullshit line. IF MIDDLE IS GETTING GANKED EITHER BE MAKING PLAYS AT MID OR BE MAKING PLAYS ELSEWHERE TO TAKE PRESSURE OFF MID. If you're Shyv then maybe you're a turbo-farmer in jungle (Shyv is the only one I can think of off the top of my head but maybe you can clear with others), and God knows that jungling leansr as a consistent ganker in the past few seasons. Do NOT try to say that the jungler is "not obligated to gank any lane". <removed by moderation> You don't know meta and this is why the report system doesn't work in ranked. The jungler is obligated to do their role as best they can and that fluctuates but always involves a pre-6 gank. Do not try to say that any role in Ranked Draft is a matter of interpretation: if you can't do your job as a jungler then you shouldn't be jungling in ranked. If the reason you aren't doing well is because you're outskilled by the enemy jungler then that is because the matchmaking system failed, not because your teammates were toxic. And if that's the case either practice in normals or step your game up. As always: if you're underperforming in Normal Draft or Blind Pick then that is what those modes are for. If you're playing like shit in Ranked then any toxicity sent your way is constructive criticism packaged in a "stop playing this game mode if you can't do your job"-shaped box. If Riot has a problem with that then they should disable ranked mode and force everyone who wants to be good at the game to play Clash. I put a bunch of money into this game assuming that they wouldn't go full-idiot and start permabanning people for criticizing bad ranked plays.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AeBMbn5j,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-15T16:43:07.931+0000) > > Riot is the reason that people are rerolling accounts, which is bad for people who are new to the game. Where's your proof that Riot's the reason for this outside of "just because reasons"? > The rules belong in certain game modes more than others. Like you said, LB is harsher in ranked, and chat should be default disabled since it is unnecessary. Maybe to you it's unnecessary but you aren't everyone. > Because being treated maturely and respectfully over chat isn&#x27;t why most people play the game. That said, people don&#x27;t play the game to be insulted; however, there is an extremely easy way to avoid that. It&#x27;s the mute function. Yes the mute button is there and yes people should use it, but no it's not there so you can be a verbally abusive jerk and get away with it. To paraphrase what others say I mute you so I avoid your toxicity, and I report you so others don't have to deal with your toxicity. > League of Legends approaches pay-to-win in ranked because of the meta and counterpicking, permabanning people who have invested time and money into their League accounts over chatting is not a solution. Hacking, death threats, and things like that are worthy of permabans... mean words are absolutely not. I don't play ranked so I can't speak for the meta there, but again the mute button and language filters aren't excuses just so you can be a verbally abusive jerk to people when things don't go your way. Besides people are given multiple chances to use chat for its intended function: communication, and if they refuse to do so then they get removed from the game via a permaban. > Why aren&#x27;t they permanent solutions? Because if you remove one tool of griefing from them (chat) they'll simply switch to another, more difficult to detect tool for griefing instead (trolling and inting). From [Riot Tantram:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/wsObUaFj-if-tyler1?comment=00010001000000000000) > It really breaks down into two categories. > > 1.) Helping players reform > 2.) Shielding others from the behavior, at a cost. > > We used to issue chat restrictions that essentially scaled indefinitely. > > We were able to determine that after a certain point the penalty no longer helped with reform. The 10-game and 25-game counts for chat restrictions are based on data that they were both light enough, and felt strict enough to encourage people to understand their behavior is unacceptable in game and change it. > > We also saw that the players in this &#x27;large restriction&#x27; category defaulted to gameplay altering means of harassing their team. It caused an increase in feeding and trolling. > > The sample size of this population and time frame is huge. Essentially the time spanning from the introduction of chat restrictions to the introduction of IFS. > > So my question for you is, would you rather have more feeders and less negative chat? If someone isn't gonna interact with others in a mature and respectful manner despite getting multiple chances to do so then why shouldn't they be removed from the community? > Why do you believe that the same people who are angry at their team for underperforming would further sabotage their team by inting? Because there's been many cases where people have done just that. Some people only care about making others miserable, and if they can't do it with chat then they'll do it by trolling and/or inting instead.
> [{quoted}](name=Prandine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AeBMbn5j,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T18:09:11.795+0000) > > Where&#x27;s your proof that Riot&#x27;s the reason for this outside of &quot;just because reasons&quot;? They run the game, they choose where and how the rules are enforced. > Maybe to you it&#x27;s unnecessary but you aren&#x27;t everyone. No, I'm definitely not everyone, but I have been playing the game for quite a long time (since beta) and I play ranked almost exclusively unless I only have a half hour and want to ARAM. I do have insight into how the feature has been used in the past and how it is used now, and since the ping system has been implemented, in ranked play its usefulness is... limited... which is probably an overstatement. > Yes the mute button is there and yes people should use it, but no it&#x27;s not there so you can be a verbally abusive jerk and get away with it. To paraphrase what others say I mute you so I avoid your toxicity, and I report you so others don&#x27;t have to deal with your toxicity. This feels like an "if a tree falls in the forest" back-and-forth. The problem is that verbal abuse intersects with gameplay in some game modes. Saying "shaco, gank my fucking lane PLEASE", then "SHACO GANK ME HE'S PUSHED FOR 5 MINUTES", etc etc is not abusive. This is why IFS doesn't work in ranked. There is no way to tell someone who has no experience in ranked meta that they are fucking up without it potentially getting you banned. Also, you can ask four or five times in chat for a gank because their jungler is bot and your jungler is top and the wave is pushed under your turret. And then it's ignored. And ignored. And ignored. Entire team asks for a gank to happen. Ignored. And then you say "can you PLEASE GANK for fuck sake!" as the turret goes to less than 5% and you get "reported" back from the jungler. This isn't something that happens once in awhile, this happens all the time in Silver which is why I switched from top to jungle. Telling someone who has never played ranked before that they should not play ranked if it's their first time playing a champion is also not abusive... but it's considered toxic. Telling someone that they counterpicked themselves and should switch lanes, and then telling them that they're doing badly because of that is not abusive... but it's apparently toxic. People have to walk on eggshells in ranked which is ridiculous because the overwhelming majority of players know what they're supposed to be doing, and the overwhelming majority of players can tell the difference when someone is having a bad game vs they just don't care. > I don&#x27;t play ranked so I can&#x27;t speak for the meta there, but again the mute button and language filters aren&#x27;t excuses just so you can be a verbally abusive jerk to people when things don&#x27;t go your way. Besides people are given multiple chances to use chat for its intended function: communication, and if they refuse to do so then they get removed from the game via a permaban. In ranked, communication happens in ways that in normals would be totally inappropriate. People are harsher because the meta is a lot tighter and people are playing to win first and have fun second, not have fun first and win second. That's why people get angry, that's why people tilt. Before IFS (for example when Tribunal was around) it was understood that in Ranked if you seriously screwed up, then you deserved a little bit of shit from your team. If I were judging a ranked game and saw an AD alistar going 0/5/3 and the ADC getting reported for toxicity I would give that ADC a pass provided they weren't racist/sexist/homophobic (so, hate speech) because they were getting trolled and it isn't fair to punish someone for being upset at their ranked game being ruined by a troll. > Because if you remove one tool of griefing from them (chat) they&#x27;ll simply switch to another, more difficult to detect tool for griefing instead (trolling and inting). From [Riot Tantram:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/wsObUaFj-if-tyler1?comment=00010001000000000000) All due respect to him, I don't believe him. Not in Ranked anyway. The reason people communicate in Ranked more often than not is because the game is going poorly and they want the game to go better. I've been on Chat Restriction and all it made me do is type less to my team and use pings more. I only rage at people when they are deliberately sabotaging a game, when they decide to start a ranked game and afk for 5 minutes in the middle of it, etc. I guess recently there was one time when I told someone that they need to go practice their champion in normals and stay away from ranked because they went 0/9 in mid lane. That is the kind of performance that ruins a game- you don't recover from that kind of thing in the current snowball meta. I usually just laugh at/mute the toxic people because I know that I do better without worrying about them and also know that if I do that there is a chance that we'll still be able to work together and win. The report system doesn't encourage that, it encourages people to keep them off mute so they can get that sweet dopamine rush if/when IFS comes back. It's not healthy and it rewards players for the wrong behavior (the more shit they put up with from this player, or the more they can tease out toxic behavior from this player, the better they'll feel if the banhammer falls). You see the threads around here I'm sure: "I want to see IFS more!". I studied psychology. What those threads indicate is classical (Pavlovian) conditioning: basically, those players have developed a conditioned response to IFS and feel rewarded when someone gets punished because of their reports. The problem is that this potentially encourages those players to do things to bring out that kind of behavior or subtly encourage the toxicity so that the likelihood of submitting a report and getting an IFS feedback is increased. "This guy told me to do something I don't want to do and that makes me salty, so if I can get this guy to say KYS or drop the n-word, it's going to be worth it whether we win or lose". Obviously telling someone to kill themselves or someone dropping the n-word is beyond the boundaries of what should be forgiven, but just because they don't get some response to that extreme degree doesn't mean they don't succeed in amplifying a toxic situation. Point beind, you give people a little power, and the ability to see how that power controls other people, and they will often times use that power to inflict harm on others. See: The Stanford Prison Experiment. The worst possible manifestation of that in this game would be people queueing in Ranked with a completely casual mindset, because they'll maximize explicit rewards (either they get carried and feel good or they trigger someone into flaming and getting a ban which makes them feel good, or maybe even both of those things). Also remember that many of the people in this game are children, who are generally very much more susceptible to adopting maladaptive behavior patterns when power/reward are involved and also have the most free time of anyone. IFS has been absolutely terrible for Ranked. > If someone isn&#x27;t gonna interact with others in a mature and respectful manner despite getting multiple chances to do so then why shouldn&#x27;t they be removed from the community? Well, because in Ranked anyway it's supposed to be about bringing your best to the table. Because people are of that mind, it makes the clueless and deliberately bad players very irritating to the people who are into that game mode. Flaming pisses me off when I see it in normals because it's almost always from people who are clearly on rerolled accounts and should know better. I would seriously doubt I've ever been reported for a game in normals in my years of playing League because while I still play to win, I also understand many people are just playing to have fun which is perfectly fine. Just not in ranked, where you should know meta and know 5-10 champions decently well. Riot does a very poor job of delineating the different between Normal Draft and Ranked even though there is a noticable difference in the average attitude toward doing poorly or off-meta picks. > Because there&#x27;s been many cases where people have done just that. Some people only care about making others miserable, and if they can&#x27;t do it with chat then they&#x27;ll do it by trolling and/or inting instead. I'd be interested in knowing how this translates between game modes. In my experience, flamers in ranked carry just as often as not. They want to win and they get angry when people make winning harder, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
Crett (NA)
: as an aside, i personally hate it when someone on either team who is steamrolling flashes their mastery after doing something like killing someone under their tower who's having a bad game it just feels mean-spirited, and i tend to report it if they do it more than like 3 times in a game EDIT: 2 clarify, i dont have a problem with the mastery emote's general use when it's not being used for excessive BM. i, for example, love using it when i die, or using it when pentakills happen.
> [{quoted}](name=Crett,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=dXFLnULR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-15T10:08:45.140+0000) > > as an aside, i personally hate it when someone on either team who is steamrolling flashes their mastery after doing something like killing someone under their tower > > it just feels mean-spirited, and i tend to report it if they do it more than like 3 times in a game loool come on. I don't have a mastery emote but whenever someone flashes any emote I just laugh because emotes are funny.
Prandine (NA)
: Riot doesn't force anyone to make new accounts. If someone chooses to make a new account that's their choice not Riots. Also, the rules apply to all game modes, though LB is harsher for ranked play. Bottom line: if someone wont behave in a mature and respectful manner despite being given multiple chances to do so then why shouldn't they be removed from the game? And don't say "just mute the problem chatters or permamute them" as those aren't permanent solutions, and in the case of the latter encourages them to switch to trolling and inting, things much harder to detect and punish for.
>Riot doesn't force anyone to make new accounts. If someone chooses to make a new account that's their choice not Riots. Riot is the reason that people are rerolling accounts, which is bad for people who are new to the game. > Also, the rules apply to all game modes The rules belong in certain game modes more than others. Like you said, LB is harsher in ranked, and chat should be default disabled since it is unnecessary. >Bottom line: if someone wont behave in a mature and respectful manner despite being given multiple chances to do so then why shouldn't they be removed from the game? Because being treated maturely and respectfully over chat isn't why most people play the game. That said, people don't play the game to be insulted; however, there is an extremely easy way to avoid that. It's the mute function. League of Legends approaches pay-to-win in ranked because of the meta and counterpicking, permabanning people who have invested time and money into their League accounts over chatting is not a solution. Hacking, death threats, and things like that are worthy of permabans... mean words are absolutely not. > And don't say "just mute the problem chatters or permamute them" as those aren't permanent solutions, Why aren't they permanent solutions? >and in the case of the latter encourages them to switch to trolling and inting, things much harder to detect and punish for. Why do you believe that the same people who are angry at their team for underperforming would further sabotage their team by inting?
: As in one game or multiple games with the same person? They have to be reported for the behavior for the system to begin monitoring for patterns, so depending on how believable it is to other players and the like might make it harder for them to get banned in general. You've gotta remember that the systems in place are based around the community and that's technically who's deciding the initial report. The bot that hands out the things gain information from said reports to compile a case against them. I'm not saying they should get a free pass, but the idea that everyone is going to be netted out of the millions of people that play League off and on any given month is going to be hard pressed. I'm surprised the game bans so many people that deserve it in the first place to be frank. I can't even imagine what they need to make the algorithm work server side and what keeps track of all the stuff going into it.
The thing is, people don't int or troll all the time, they just do it when they feel like it (they don't get the role they want, they don't get the champ they want, the team comp isn't what they want to play in). It's not necessarily a pattern of behavior, it might not happen all the time, but the damage it causes amounts to 4x(game time) + whatever negativity between players arises. Whereas the damage that a flamer causes is exactly how long you decide not to mute them. The rationale that people deserve to be banned because of chat used to hold up when you needed to type "mia" or "rb", "bb", etc, and chat was important to playing well as a team. but the ping system is so good now (MIA, warded, help, on my way, back off, look at this) that it isn't necessary to even have chat enabled. I would absolutely play with chat disabled in ranked because all of the information I need to perform well in ranked is communicated through pings and having game awareness. Inting and trolling are categorically worse than flaming because there is no way to escape it, you have to play it out. But there's no option, you have to type a command to get rid of it that I completely forget about until someone starts tilting at someone else. That's a shitty way to have to spend time that you set aside to have fun. It's also shitty that calling someone out or flaming them for being like that is treated as worse than actually ruining the game for others. Like, this is the only online game I've ever played where being a complete jackass and ruining it for four other people is possible in such a way that a troll can provoke 4 otherwise innocent players to break the ridiculously militant chat rules and get banned while not getting punished or having their behavior reprimanded in any way (in fact, they are encouraged because it gets the results they want). That's an objectively terrible system.
: Inting- intentionally feeding and/or throwing the game. VS Being unskilled- not intentionally feeding and/or throwing the game? Intention is what makes the entire premise hard to track.
And anyone who ints knows that and will say stuff like "oops" and "lag :)" and shit like that so they don't get banned. I watched it happen on some Master-level jungle stream.
: I looked at the yis profile and he just seems bad. Inting and just being bad is two different things.
I agree that they are two different things, but what do you consider the difference to be?
: truly toxic, vs bad language
Webster's definition of toxic: "poisonous, harmful" etc. Riot's definition of toxic: saying mean things about people who are actively trying to ruin your experience
: These “examples” hold 0 weight to them when you ignorantly say it with no evidence, therefore I don’t need believe such lies coming out a person who lacks credibility.
What possible evidence can he post without it breaking rules?
: >Faith Silver: also reported toxic ww Calling for reports. >Faith Silver: remember when udyr and irelia roamed more than you did Faith Silver: remember what a team fight is? Faith Silver: oh wait you dont Faith Silver: gg team aint worth it ---- >Faith Silver: dont play a champ u dont know Faith Silver: Salt is real Faith Silver: also you dont know irelia Faith Silver: taking the wrong runes Faith Silver: lul salty as fuck Berating your team's performance. This wouldn't be bannable by itself, so one of two things happened: * You were on a 14 day ban and got smacked again * This isn't the only chatlog For more information: http://tkwa.re/leaguereporttiers
>Unofficial IFS Flowchart That makes it appear a whole lot less terrible than it actually is.
: That catches up to them eventually. And at some point the line is so blurred between trolling and bad gameplay that as long as you have a handle on your own temper and don't blast people for being stupid then the trolls among them get nothing out of it.
All I see on these forums are complaints from people who get banned for chat. There were bans that went out for inting awhile back and those bans were redacted because many of them were bullshit and people were getting banned for having one or two (very) bad games. Many bans went out recently because of "third party software" and were redacted because they were bullshit and any programs used didn't do anything to give an unfair mechanical gameplay advantage. But chat is ambiguous and the line between "toxic speech" and normal fucking video game banter is so thin that Riot hasn't had to backpedal on the kind of insane bullshit their automated system has churned out over the last couple of years. Not because the system is good, just because it isn't as obviously cancerous as the other two systems were and people blame themselves for being normal human beings with natural reactions to disappointment instead of asking why the hell Riot cares so fucking much about what people say to each other in ranked. And yeah, I'm salty, because when I put money into this game I didn't expect them to implement an automated permaban system that only looks at chat and not at gameplay or how the interaction between someone with a bunch of gameplay complaints could be absolutely integral to an otherwise normal person being verbally toxic under certain circumstances. I figured they'd keep their focus on developing and refining their game, and not venture into the realm of whatever weird psychological experiment their player behavior team is conducting.
: Is it really that hard just to click the report button after game?
> [{quoted}](name=FireBlaze100,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=aWPdwq5p,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-12T03:48:00.907+0000) > > Is it really that hard just to click the report button after game? It doesn't do shit unless Yi said something incriminating. But if this dude (the OP) said "Yi stop being a fucking idiot, it's my promo" at any point he would be at risk for a restriction or even a perma if Yi or anyone else decided to report him. That's why the report system is trash. Riot doesn't pull replays for int reports and watch them to see if it's legitimate. They don't have the logistics. The report system is a scam.
: It *is* super tilting to listen to your teammate talking like this, but of course that doesn't mean you need to receive a restriction. You can submit a [Support Ticket](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) and discuss this with Player Support, I've seen them remove a ban or two for self-depracating chat. However, please still keep in mind that this still kills the mood for your team! It's alright to apologize and accept that you aren't doing well, or are doing downright horrible, but try and focus on the game so the team can too! You can definitely get some pointers on how to improve in the game and how to deal with the stress and frustration, so I hope you stick around and talk if you need to.
The system is bad because it was made for preteen chatrooms and not COMPETITIVE video games. His team would have been tilted and would have reported him anyway for inting because nobody, who wasn't toxic in the first place, would report someone who says "I have no idea what I'm fucking doing". Especially when it's jungle. I secondary jungle now, but before I learned, autofilling jungle in ranked would be a goddamned nightmare. This is a great example of why IFS is bad and if you talk to any reds maybe direct them to stuff like this instead of just working damage control as if the system isn't super-broken.
Rioter Comments
zPOOPz (NA)
: 1) meta or role or whatever do not disqualify someone from being able to discuss behavior problems. The only time they matter is if meta or role somehow is a legitimate excuse for being toxic and we all know that is not true. There is NO excuse for being toxic even in the face of trolling, off-meta pick, not communicating, inting, etc. 2) That is the unfortunate side-effect of perma-banning someone I will agree with you. However, the number of banned players making new acct to be toxic as opposed to those banned players moving on to other games are small enough that Rito will accept that niche consquence. If you further weight that number against leaving those toxic players in general pool disrupting their established player base as opposed to new player pool, there is no reason not to permanently removed them from the general pool. No one on this board or Rito claimed to have a perfect system. Rito analyzes the risks and the effects of the system and take the lesser of the bigger evil (leaving toxic players in gen pop). 3) The IFS shows OP his most recent validly reported game. It happened to be 1 game. It does not mean there are not many other validly reported games in OP's history that is not shown.
> [{quoted}](name=zPOOPz,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T16:47:42.775+0000) > > 1) meta or role or whatever do not disqualify someone from being able to discuss behavior problems. The only time they matter is if meta or role somehow is a legitimate excuse for being toxic and we all know that is not true. There is NO excuse for being toxic even in the face of trolling, off-meta pick, not communicating, inting, etc. A lack of understanding of meta and role means a lack of perspective on situations where the toxicity did not originate from the person who used "toxic speech" but from a person who is disrupting gameplay. If the only measure of toxicity you look at is speech, then you are running a chat program, not a competitive video game. In competitive live events like Super Smash Bro's, do you think that anyone would blame a player for saying "FUCK OFF" to someone who unplugged their controller during a team 2v2? The player who removed the controller would be removed from the tournament and probably banned from future tournaments. The players whose games were messed with might be given a caution but probably everyone in the audience would have been booing so loudly that nobody noticed the expletives. There is a logic to that situation that the IFS completely disregards in favor of being a fucking chat moderating program, which has no place in a competitive online game. Now, if someone tripped over a cord and screwed it up accidentally (or played ranked without having any idea what they were doing) they still might get yelled at because they messed up a game, but if it was an accident they probably wouldn't be thrown out of the tournament and all future tournaments. However, again, people getting upset and vocalizing it are not in the wrong, they're just reacting like normal people to an abnormal situation. Some people curse more than others. It does not mean they aren't justified in being angry. Luckily, in League, we can mute them and we don't need a referee or an usher to remove them. > 2) That is the unfortunate side-effect of perma-banning someone I will agree with you. However, the number of banned players making new acct to be toxic as opposed to those banned players moving on to other games are small enough that Rito will accept that niche consquence. If you further weight that number against leaving those toxic players in general pool disrupting their established player base as opposed to new player pool, there is no reason not to permanently removed them from the general pool. No one on this board or Rito claimed to have a perfect system. Rito analyzes the risks and the effects of the system and take the lesser of the bigger evil (leaving toxic players in gen pop). I really don't think Riot is keeping track. They just really don't want to admit they are wrong since stonewalling complaints by directing people to a FAQ team that can't/won't do anything has worked so far. But I think with this last wave of 3rd party mistake bans, people actually know what it feels like to lose access to the content they spent time and money unlocking, and maybe take it a little more seriously now. There are better ways to stop people who use chat for purely toxic reasons than permabanning their accounts. Like disabling chat entirely. > 3) The IFS shows OP his most recent validly reported game. It happened to be 1 game. It does not mean there are not many other validly reported games in OP&#x27;s history that is not shown. Whatever the case, IFS is still trash since it isn't designed to deal with the frustration naturally arising from other problems in Riot's report and punishment system (such as the complete lack of actual game awareness in the system). This should have been nipped in the bud before it was ever implemented and now that we have the gift of hindsight it needs to be addressed. It is encouraging all of the wrong things and making the game very unfriendly toward new players in the process.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:05:46.899+0000)1. My comment was in response to the top lane asking &quot;what is going on bot lane? tower down at 8 mins&quot;. The reason: support had spent the previous 3 mins in mid lane and I was pushed out of lane. One person ruined an entire game for four other. > > 2. Are you saying definitely that saying "newb [role]" is objective grounds for restriction or banishment? Are you saying that in 100% of cases when someone says "newb support" they will be punished? Is this Riot's official position? Don't waste my time with conjecture. I am saying that, no matter what another player has done, spending the better part of the game implying they are bad or are playing badly is something that is punishable. Literally every line in the log below is basically blaming your support or complaining about his gameplay. That's not okay, and it is something Riot will reliably punish you for. > Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing??' > Sweet Sayonara: why?? > Sweet Sayonara: i need you bot lane > Sweet Sayonara: gg > Sweet Sayonara: im done\ > Sweet Sayonara: newb support > Sweet Sayonara: going mid > Sweet Sayonara: wow > Sweet Sayonara: im amazed > Sweet Sayonara: support > Sweet Sayonara: where are you? > Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing? > Sweet Sayonara: this guy > Sweet Sayonara: report > Sweet Sayonara: i cant farm > Sweet Sayonara: no support > Sweet Sayonara: support > Sweet Sayonara: come > Sweet Sayonara: on > Sweet Sayonara: all you have to do is use your knock up > Sweet Sayonara: pay attention > Sweet Sayonara: support >The point I have tried to make is that a punishment system that can completely ban an account - with real money at stake - should be free of subjectivity and clear to all. That is simply not what we have here and I have been inappropriately punished twice now and Riot has taken 200 USD of my money. Not cool. When you set hard lines in the sand for behavior, players simply skirt as close to those lines as possible and claim they were following the rules. This is why most games (or organizations, for that matter) with behavioral rules keep somewhat ambiguous terms like "don't insult or belittle other players" or "don't be a jerk."
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:14:45.782+0000) > When you set hard lines in the sand for behavior, players simply skirt as close to those lines as possible and claim they were following the rules. This is why most games (or organizations, for that matter) with behavioral rules keep somewhat ambiguous terms like &quot;don&#x27;t insult or belittle other players&quot; or &quot;don&#x27;t be a jerk.&quot; That's what most of the players who aren't banned in Bronze and Silver have figured out, which is why they troll with gameplay instead.
: How do you want me to reply to this? You didn't address my argument at all in your post. All you did was attack me.
Your argument, whether you know it or not, is that ADC mains shouldn't communicate with support, or communicate to the team that their lane is in trouble because the support doesn't have any idea what they're doing. And further down, someone with the pink border says that people should express themselves thoughtfully and help people improve- as if ADCs can stop CSing and dodging harass to write a book on how to not feed while they're trying not to fall behind in lane. Now, that suggestion would be fine if it were a smurf playing voluntarily with new players. It is not fine when the system banned this guy's original account for "Mean Words" and is now forcing him to play with people who are new to the game, against people who are not. There are too many people shilling for the punishment system as it exists. This doesn't actually help because the system desperately needs to be re-examined and fixed, there are several ways to do that. It does not help when people mindlessly ignore the bigger picture.
zPOOPz (NA)
: Why are you so hot and bothered enough to reply to him when the thread isn't even yours? Pot meets kettle if you want to go into the "none of your business" route. The IFS judged each individual chat log on its own without context from outside sources because everyone is responsible for their own actions. This is about OP's behavior on the Summoner's Rift and knowledge of whatever mode is not required to discuss OP's behaviors.
1) Because the system is shit and points to a a major problem in the design of the game (in-game chat, especially in ranked play). This guy showed up in another thread talking about how non-toxic the game is compared to years ago, not disclosing that this is only because he solely plays on meme game modes where roles don't matter, meta doesn't matter, game knowledge doesn't matter, and champion pool doesn't matter (this is especially fucking important when it comes to accounts being potentially banned). His experience is not indicative of ranked or even normal draft. 2) The IFS is fucking garbage and has created a situation where players are banned from their main accounts for toxicity and end up with new accounts playing in normals with players who don't know what they're doing. They're frustrated because they lost their champion pool and skins, they're frustrated because they have to level up to 30 again to play the mode they are interested in playing, and they're frustrated because they're playing against other banned players so the games aren't a cakewalk but take a fair amount of effort to win at times but sometimes the weakest link on their team is weaker than the weakest link on the opponent's team by a much farther margin since there are so many smurfs now. That doesn't sound like a system that discourages toxicity to me. It is a system that practically guarantees it. 3) There is one chat log in this case.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-11T13:54:48.520+0000) > > It&#x27;s almost like banning his original account and forcing him to play with new players against other smurfs has made the game complete garbage for new players, and that this punishment system is offensively shitty. If Riot disabled in-game chat this problem would go away. If Riot insisted that people use the mute function to deal with verbally abusive players instead of permabanning accounts and sending them back to level 1 to wreak havoc on new players, this problem would go away. Instead, we have the current trashpile which is why there are so many threads like this posted every. single. day. Disabling in-game chat would defeat a large part of *League*'s purpose as a teamwork-oriented game where communication matters. Giving players free reign to be verbally abusive would also defeat Riot's goal of fostering a friendly, helpful, respectful community. And long and short of it is that players who are verbally abusive need to find other outlets for their frustration. Not banning them simply keeps the toxicity in the more experienced *League* population, and also gives it no incentive to improve. Threads like this would not happen if players sought to encourage, support, and give meaningful advice at all levels instead of belittling their teammates for mistakes or a lack of knowledge.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:05:08.143+0000) > > Disabling in-game chat would defeat a large part of *League*&#x27;s purpose as a teamwork-oriented game where communication matters. 1) Pings 2) Clicking the timers 3) Discord I've been playing this game for 9 years. In-game chat is used for strategy basically never, especially now with so many non-chat options for communication. When someone is actively playing, stopping to type means losing CS, losing kill, losing objectives. Keeping cruft like in-game chat prominent and available when it is the source of so many complaints, from old and new players alike, is a terrible decision on Riot's part. >Giving players free reign to be verbally abusive would also defeat Riot&#x27;s goal of fostering a friendly, helpful, respectful community. 1) Abuse is, by definition, only bestowable from a position of power where the target is unable to escape. Leage of Legends players do not have the ability to verbally abuse each other in game because the recipient of unwanted remarks has the power to mute that player, thus verbal abuse does NOT occur on League of Legends. Negative attitude, maybe, which is to be expected when a team member is screwing up in competitive, but do NOT call it abuse because it is NOT abuse. Calling it that is insulting to victims of actual abuse. 2) Riot's current approach doesn't foster a respectful community, it fosters a community of players who feel justified in their bad decisions (like queueing in the competitive Ranked mode with zero idea of how the game works) because they get flamed for ruining the experience for four other players. They feel bad because people don't like them for ruining the game and wasting everyone's time, and instead of taking that feeling and doing something with it like either a) improving or b) staying out of ranked mode because they don't like the pressure, they report people and feel like the righteous victim of injustice. Which is why the queue is so bad. > And long and short of it is that players who are verbally abusive need to find other outlets for their frustration. Not banning them simply keeps the toxicity in the more experienced *League* population, and also gives it no incentive to improve. No such thing as verbal abuse on League of Legends. Abuse is persistent. Harassment is persistent. They are real phenomena. Neither can be negated by pushing tab and clicking mute. Riot needs to step back and get some perspective if they are seriously considering mutable in-game chat "abuse", and if that really IS their position, then they need to stop providing such a convenient avenue for "abusers". By removing the cruft known as in-game chat. The frustration these so-called "abusers" express arises from people who don't know what the hell they're doing. I agree that attitude should not move into normals, but the only reason it ever would is because Riot is banning people and forcing them to reroll brand new accounts. This is a disastrous move. > Threads like this would not happen if players sought to encourage, support, and give meaningful advice at all levels instead of belittling their teammates for mistakes or a lack of knowledge. In ranked competition it is not our job to teach people not to feed, not to play AD jungle Soraka, etc. The reason he is calling his support a newb in the OP is probably because the support is, in fact, a newb. This problem would never have happened had his original account not been banned, which brings us back to the problem of the punishment system funnelling toxicity into sub-30 games.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-11T11:32:59.724+0000)Sweet Sayonara: newb support I picked this single line because it's indicative of a larger trend in the game. Spending the entire game belittling someone else for their play isn't permitted, whether you use insulting language to do so or simply normal, generally inoffensive language in a manner that still belittles that player. You have done the latter, and a game spent almost exclusively complaining about a teammate being unskilled or useless will indeed earn you a punishment.
It's almost like banning his original account and forcing him to play with new players against other smurfs has made the game complete garbage for new players, and that this punishment system is offensively shitty. If Riot disabled in-game chat this problem would go away. If Riot insisted that people use the mute function to deal with verbally abusive players instead of permabanning accounts and sending them back to level 1 to wreak havoc on new players, this problem would go away. Instead, we have the current trashpile which is why there are so many threads like this posted every. single. day.
: >So you're arguing there is no financial incentive to the evolution of this bizarre punishment culture around "toxicity" (which only focuses on a specific type of "toxicity" that often follows more subtle but just as potent negative behavior)? The toxicity in this game five years ago was not nearly as bad as it is today precisely because peoples' accounts weren't being constantly threatened by trolls who are doing everything they can to draw a reaction from a completely unnecessary "feature" known as in-game chat. And some people really are dumb enough to spend money on this game a second time, or money doesn't matter to them. Unfortunately in the latter case that also means that time doesn't mean anything to them and so they don't have any qualms about wasting the time of others by trolling on a video game. And I'm saying that from my perspective the behavior in my games are much better than before. I report someone maybe one in every 8 games or so now. I remember getting someone being an asshole much more frequently before. >Removing chat would not make the punishment system worse, it would almost make it obsolete. Removing chat would make the game worse. >Removing chat will disincentivize the trolls because they won't actually get a real-time reaction. That is why they do what they do- for the reaction. They aren't doing it because they want the game ruined, they're doing it because they have fun while people rage at them. Do you really think that will stop trolls? Trolls get their reactions from pings easily enough. I see the problem as people assume others are trolls far too often, even when they're not. A true troll is rare. >It's similar to the Sunk Cost Fallacy. People invest a bunch of time in a video game to improve and get better at it, then their main account gets banned. Their money is gone, but they've still invested a bunch of time in a video game to improve skill-wise and so they make another account. The ones who don't care about money will then pay to improve their experience by buying champions (so they don't have to farm IP or BE or whatever it's called, so they can buy boosts and not have to farm exp, etc). I give a shit about where my money goes, but there are lots of people who play video games and don't care about dropping $50 a month on extra content or functionality (by buying champions directly) and wouldn't think twice about spending it on RP. If we're referring to the Sunk Cost Fallacy, that would be more in effect *before* they are banned. Once they are banned they suddenly have much less investment into the game. Only time that they wont get back. League of Legends isn't the only game people can play to use their skills at that style of gameplay. Dota 2, Smite, HotS are all free and all good games. >Why he hell should I have to type a command to get rid of cruft at the beginning of every game? Also, what happens if people actually do use the terrible chat system to communicate instead of using pings? As long as the inferior option is there, it creates the potential to miss some important communication. If chat is gone, then people are forced to communicate with pings. Because you don't want chat? Just because you don't want chat doesn't mean that no one should be forced to go without it. I prefer to treat the other players on my team like other humans that I can talk to. Not NPCs.
> [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5x5TfJI9,comment-id=0000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T04:15:00.487+0000) > > And I&#x27;m saying that from my perspective the behavior in my games are much better than before. I report someone maybe one in every 8 games or so now. I remember getting someone being an asshole much more frequently before. OK, I had to look at your OPGG profile because there's no possible way you play normals or ranked and have this experience and I can't imagine someone trying to lie with a statistic like 1 in 8 games having toxic behavior since it is absurdly unrealistic- like anyone trying to lowball the toxicity in the game would say something like 1 in 4 (it's much closer to 3/4), not 1 in 8. In the past month, you've played nothing but all-for-one and ARAM. You realize that most of the discussion on this forum doesn't apply to your experience because you're playing non-competitive game modes that pretty much nobody takes seriously? Which is fine, I play the occasional ARAM and enjoy it. However, your experience on the most casual game modes is not relevant to most of the conversations happening on this forum. > Removing chat would make the game worse. OK, keep it in the meme games. Remove it from normals and especially from solo Q. > Do you really think that will stop trolls? Trolls get their reactions from pings easily enough. I see the problem as people assume others are trolls far too often, even when they&#x27;re not. A true troll is rare. You don't play normals and you don't play ranked. Trolling an ARAM match or trolling an All-For-One game doesn't do the same thing as it does in SR games which is why people don't bother. > If we&#x27;re referring to the Sunk Cost Fallacy, that would be more in effect *before* they are banned. Once they are banned they suddenly have much less investment into the game. Only time that they wont get back. League of Legends isn&#x27;t the only game people can play to use their skills at that style of gameplay. Dota 2, Smite, HotS are all free and all good games. Incorrect, because permabans don't prohibit the player from making a new account and buying more RP. Their relationship with the game continues, they invest more time in it, and they buy more shit because they don't want to play an account hobbled by a non-existent champion pool (something that doesn't matter to you since you play game modes that ignore champion ownership). And time is worth a lot more than the RP they put in their account- people who have been playing awhile learn a lot of info about the game that is not applicable to other games (matchups, skills, counters, etc). You don't understand this because you don't play SR which is the game mode League is most known for. > Because you don&#x27;t want chat? Just because you don&#x27;t want chat doesn&#x27;t mean that no one should be forced to go without it. I prefer to treat the other players on my team like other humans that I can talk to. Not NPCs. You play meme game modes. Which is fine, to each his own, but this conversation is over. We are talking about completely different games, you are not part of the community about which I'm speaking.
RNG H3R0 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EI8qJ2YH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-10T17:53:11.598+0000) > > I don&#x27;t report anyone because what he says doesn&#x27;t fucking matter and the report system encourages people to troll and tilt instead of mute people, which is way worse than being a dumbass in chat. Dumbasses can be muted in the first second of the game, trolls you have to wait 20 minutes because they most certainly vote no on early surrender after inting up mid 5 times in the first 15 minutes. Oh noes, you hurt their feelings now! They will report you, and down vote you and retaliate in every way they can without you being able to fight back. They don't want the confrontation they just want mommy riot to punish you.
Honestly, my feelings on downvotes on this forum and other forums like reddit are the same: people who use them should be forced into emotion-focused therapy since they are terrified of having an honest conversation because someone might disagree with them. I can not imagine being so hindered by anxiety as to "vote" negatively on someone's opinion, though sometimes I do "upvote" if something makes me laugh or makes me think about something a different way. Reddit Syndrome is alive and well on here.
: >What are you actually disputing? Like I said: they paid players with IP to do Tribunal. That's not proof that Riot is banning people for money or that the banning process is making the game more toxic. It's proof that they had a system where the community could help decide what is/is not acceptable behavior. It's also gone now so it's irrelevant. >ask anybody who has played the game for more than a few years (before 2013 or so, when eSports started taking off and the publicity increased so much) . So... me? One person saying that a company is banning people for money is not proof. >and apologists need to sit down and shut up when they make the claim that it is more good than harm. Same for other people that say that the punishment system needs to be "fixed". And by fixed, I mean suggestions that would just make everything worse. >Toxicity is overwhelmingly tied to in-game chat, which is not necessary as it was in early League, and apologists need to sit down and shut up when they make the claim that it is more good than harm. It is an extra function that is sub-optimal for in-game communication and generally makes the game worse via fighting and arguing. I have far more experiences where chat is jovial, social banter, or used tactically compared to when someone is an asshole in chat. Just because some people misuse the tool doesn't mean that it should go away. Removing chat is not going to remove the trolls. >only reason Riot wouldn't do that is because they profit from children with well-off parents, who rage and then get their parents to buy RP cards for them and buy champions, boosts, or even entire accounts. Once again, you have zero proof that Riot is gaining money by banning players. All logic points to them losing potential money from the banned players. You are attempting to argue that a person is **MORE** likely to spend money on a F2P game that just banned them, after first-hand experience that they could lose it all again. >Meanwhile, ordinary people who have been playing for years have to put up with this amplified bullshit and Riot doesn't care because "fuck you, we don't need your support anymore". I've dealt with it just fine. Never even been restricted yet I managed to accrue quite a pool of skins and I have every champion. >You're asking for "proof" as though we can just pull up Riot's stats and see the percentage of PvP games where reports are received. Well, obviously that's not going to happen, so you'll just have to take the word of people who have played this game from the beginning. So my word again? >Chat needs to be gone or disabled by default, in-game, and this ridiculously toxic culture of reporting everyone needs to be buried. Almost every fucking game I play involves the "report x for y" line. The only players who don't seem to do it are the ones who play ARAM. It's infuriating to see how bad it has gotten both in normals and especially in ranked. Then you mute them. It's pretty damn easy. If you feel like chat is unnecessary feel free to /muteall at the start of each game.
> [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5x5TfJI9,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T03:06:31.574+0000) > > That&#x27;s not proof that Riot is banning people for money or that the banning process is making the game more toxic. It&#x27;s proof that they had a system where the community could help decide what is/is not acceptable behavior. It&#x27;s also gone now so it&#x27;s irrelevant. It's proof that chat has been an absolute source of garbage behavior for years. > So... me? One person saying that a company is banning people for money is not proof. So you're arguing there is no financial incentive to the evolution of this bizarre punishment culture around "toxicity" (which only focuses on a specific type of "toxicity" that often follows more subtle but just as potent negative behavior)? The toxicity in this game five years ago was not nearly as bad as it is today precisely because peoples' accounts weren't being constantly threatened by trolls who are doing everything they can to draw a reaction from a completely unnecessary "feature" known as in-game chat. And some people really are dumb enough to spend money on this game a second time, or money doesn't matter to them. Unfortunately in the latter case that also means that time doesn't mean anything to them and so they don't have any qualms about wasting the time of others by trolling on a video game. > Same for other people that say that the punishment system needs to be &quot;fixed&quot;. And by fixed, I mean suggestions that would just make everything worse. Removing chat would not make the punishment system worse, it would almost make it obsolete. > I have far more experiences where chat is jovial, social banter, or used tactically compared to when someone is an asshole in chat. Just because some people misuse the tool doesn&#x27;t mean that it should go away. Removing chat is not going to remove the trolls. Removing chat will disincentivize the trolls because they won't actually get a real-time reaction. That is why they do what they do- for the reaction. They aren't doing it because they want the game ruined, they're doing it because they have fun while people rage at them. > Once again, you have zero proof that Riot is gaining money by banning players. All logic points to them losing potential money from the banned players. You are attempting to argue that a person is **MORE** likely to spend money on a F2P game that just banned them, after first-hand experience that they could lose it all again. It's similar to the Sunk Cost Fallacy. People invest a bunch of time in a video game to improve and get better at it, then their main account gets banned. Their money is gone, but they've still invested a bunch of time in a video game to improve skill-wise and so they make another account. The ones who don't care about money will then pay to improve their experience by buying champions (so they don't have to farm IP or BE or whatever it's called, so they can buy boosts and not have to farm exp, etc). I give a shit about where my money goes, but there are lots of people who play video games and don't care about dropping $50 a month on extra content or functionality (by buying champions directly) and wouldn't think twice about spending it on RP. > Then you mute them. It&#x27;s pretty damn easy. If you feel like chat is unnecessary feel free to /muteall at the start of each game. Why he hell should I have to type a command to get rid of cruft at the beginning of every game? Also, what happens if people actually do use the terrible chat system to communicate instead of using pings? As long as the inferior option is there, it creates the potential to miss some important communication. If chat is gone, then people are forced to communicate with pings.
: That's not proof of either one. They gave IP to players as an incentive to vote while the Tribunal was running, because otherwise very few people would have bothered to offer up their free time for zero reward.
What are you actually disputing? Like I said: they paid players with IP to do Tribunal. If you're asking for "proof", ask anybody who has played the game for more than a few years (before 2013 or so, when eSports started taking off and the publicity increased so much) . The ultimate proof, though, is in what they're doing now for a punishment system, the number of pissed off sub 30 smurf who have names like "Banned by Riot" etc... It's bullshit. Toxicity is overwhelmingly tied to in-game chat, which is not necessary as it was in early League, and apologists need to sit down and shut up when they make the claim that it is more good than harm. It is an extra function that is sub-optimal for in-game communication and generally makes the game worse via fighting and arguing. It used to be a necessary evil before the timer system and the ping system, but the next obvious step is to phase it out and the only reason Riot wouldn't do that is because they profit from children with well-off parents, who rage and then get their parents to buy RP cards for them and buy champions, boosts, or even entire accounts. Meanwhile, ordinary people who have been playing for years have to put up with this amplified bullshit and Riot doesn't care because "fuck you, we don't need your support anymore". You're asking for "proof" as though we can just pull up Riot's stats and see the percentage of PvP games where reports are received. Well, obviously that's not going to happen, so you'll just have to take the word of people who have played this game from the beginning. Chat needs to be gone or disabled by default, in-game, and this ridiculously toxic culture of reporting everyone needs to be buried. Almost every fucking game I play involves the "report x for y" line. The only players who don't seem to do it are the ones who play ARAM. It's infuriating to see how bad it has gotten both in normals and especially in ranked. And no, it's not just "flamers", it's people who take the report system as a license to fuck the other four players on the team over and then threaten them for being pissed. Only half of the problem is getting punished. Inciting toxic chat is just as bad but because it doesn't have a lazy, half-baked solution, it isn't approached and this is "good enough".
: >no need for a whole punishment system that doesnt work, but still being insisted by riot employees that is actually does what is "intended", instead of what it is actually doing for the game, which is to help increase toxicity and increase revenue. i guess in a way thats working as intended. Do you have any proof of either of these?
> [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5x5TfJI9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-10T22:27:03.971+0000) > > Do you have any proof of either of these? I've been playing this game for almost 9 years. Chat is and was so bad that they used to pay players with IP rewards to go through and judge games/chat violations before they implemented the current ridiculous system which overreacts to chat and completely ignores most trolls. This system has filled sub-30 games with angry smurfs (who are banned on their mains) and filled post-30 games with oversensitive children who aren't really that sensitive, they just get their kicks trolling people if they don't get the role they want or if someone takes a pick they don't like and then report anyone angry with them and congratulate themselves and each other when they manage to push someone over the edge. I used to tell friends about this game but having seen what new players go through in the last few months of leveling a new account, there's not a goddamned chance I'm going to encourage people to play this game until Riot fixes the community by changing the report system and/or removing in-game chat. It was always sort of bad (but luckily there is a mute function) but now it's catastrophically fucking awful because people play poorly on purpose if they decide they don't like you/the skins you have/that you got their main position etc.
Stupafly (NA)
: Dude we get it. Banning out an allied champ is wrong. You should not do it. The point people are trying to make to you which you are avoiding like the plague is "VERBALLY ABUSING SOMEONE IS NOT OK". If they banned your champ, if they afk'd, if they insulted your existance and even if they told you to end your life..... its not okay to verbally abuse people, the response to verbal abuse is mute and/or reporting.
It's the internet. Also, "Dude"? Did you just assume my gender? Even though I have an obviously female name? I need a report system because that's misgendering and I feel violated. Or, you know, I don't care and wouldn't report you if there was a system because that would be ridiculous because I don't know you and never have to deal with you in real life. Just like it is any other time (except where threats of bodily harm are concerned) .
Kei143 (NA)
: What are your reporting habits? (Poll inside)
I don't report anyone because what he says doesn't fucking matter and the report system encourages people to troll and tilt instead of mute people, which is way worse than being a dumbass in chat. Dumbasses can be muted in the first second of the game, trolls you have to wait 20 minutes because they most certainly vote no on early surrender after inting up mid 5 times in the first 15 minutes.
Stupafly (NA)
: Fight fire with fire?
If someone calls you a name because you weren't paying attention and wasted their time in queue (who knows how many dodges etc) by banning their champion then you should humbly accept that you deserve being told off and move on. You don't play the game out just so you can report them, that's toxic as fuck, and you don't ask for a feature to be made so that you can sabotage pre-game lobby and get people in trouble when they respond unkindly. This is a prime example of what's wrong with the community. People who have nothing better to do than cause trouble for other players instead of playing the game to the best of their ability and putting people who say mean words on mute if it's needed. This is the environment Riot's chat report system has built. League of Legends is a bloated, censored chat app that a dwindling number of people use for gaming, some people use for roleplaying, and other people use as a babysitter for their hyperactive kids (all they have to pay for is Yasuo).
Tf 420 (NA)
: 0.006% btw
Yeah, most players probably quit the game when they realize that they have to put up with bullshit without saying anything back. They just go play Overwatch, fortnite, or any number of other games that don't have badly-implemented punishment systems for mean words. I guess if reformed behavior is not logging on to the account again, Riot's system really works!
Trias000 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OA7u632m,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T23:39:58.555+0000) > > You are the reason they are angry, so you are responsible for making things right. The moment someone starts flaming me is the moment I absolutely stop caring about what they feel or want.
That is incredibly childish. The world doesn't owe you understanding if you're carelessly infringing on other people's fun.
: I somewhat agree with you, the problem is people still figure out a way to use pings for malicious behavior, via spamming mia pings on dead teammates, or repeatedly spamming death timers on teammates.
Yeah, it definitely can be abused. I find myself mumbling angrily at my screen though when the ping trolls come out, then laughing about it after... reading/tilting because of the shit someone says to me when I don't /muteall is way worse for my playing
MangaCat (NA)
: Nope that was the ONLY log and the support person I spoke to confirmed it.
inb4 shills insisting that this is toxic because you said anything at all, because according to them the system isn't insanely focused on the wrong problems in ranked queue. (◔_◔) but don't you dare suggest that chat be removed or disabled because then said shills wouldn't be able to soft-int and troll players with nice skins into getting perma'd when they want to feel powerful. you know, _actual_ player behavior issues that are happening _all_ _the_ _time_ but get completely ignored because accounts with purchases getting banned is "a good thing" and people should be allow to express themselves by taking soraka jungle if they want... but not express themselves by telling that person that they are throwing the game and wasting everyone's time.
: Shut up, Stop talking
Ingame chat should be removed. If people want to communicate during game they should set up a Discord or use the completely unambiguous ping feature that has pings for danger, MIA, help with objective/gank, warded, etc.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OA7u632m,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T00:10:09.055+0000) > > Is it ok to ban a teammate&#x27;s champion? No, it isn&#x27;t, it&#x27;s rude. If you do something rude you should apologize, dodge queue, and not do it again. Not try to find some way to punish the person you wronged in the first place. You're avoiding my point. So if you ban someone's champ they should just be allowed to be verbally abusive without any penalty?
If you ban someone's champion after they've hovered it then you shouldn't be surprised or insulted if they tell you off and you shouldn't go looking for some way to get retribution. It's an easily avoidable problem: don't ban your team's champions. If you don't do that, then it won't be an issue. If you do, then yeah, you and your decision are fair game and you should dodge
: I did actually apologize and they decided to called me a slut. I was not even trying to be rude people make mistakes It is okay to be angry, but people take it too far. So you believe it is perfectly okay for someone to verbally abuse you? From what I am reading you are trying to say that because someone makes a mistake it gives people to right to verbally abuse you?
If it were me, my thought process would be: "Is this ok? No. Is this person angry at me for a valid reason? Yes. Am I a slut? No. Is this person calling me a bad name because they are angry about me messing up their game? Yes. Well, I guess I should dodge since I did accidentally cause this and it's better to just forget about it."
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OA7u632m,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-09T22:34:43.081+0000) > > So something you did by accident made somebody understandably pissed off and instead of just sort of rolling your eyes at their dumb, immature response, you want them banned? Why shouldn&#x27;t you be banned for not paying attention? Why should anyone be punished at all since it&#x27;s a video game and stuff like this happens? What would you say if someone banned your champion given that it&#x27;s a tactic used by people as a passive-aggressive form of trolling? Some people do it so that someone else dodges and they don&#x27;t have to play an autofill role. So lets be honest here. You are claiming that it is okay to make verbal insults at people if they ban your champion? That's the whole point of this post. Are you allowed to use verbal insults directed at someone in game, because they make a bad play? That goes under the report for verbal abuse does it not? So how is it different in champ select? Be angry at someone for banning the champ, sure. But use verbal insults? What if someone is using verbal insults simply to do so? Shouldn't it be good to have a report button anyways? I just don't understand how you are going to defend people that use verbal insults intentionally directed at others. Verbal insults are never okay. It's abuse.
Is it ok to ban a teammate's champion? No, it isn't, it's rude. If you do something rude you should apologize, dodge queue, and not do it again. Not try to find some way to punish the person you wronged in the first place.
Trias000 (EUNE)
: Not if they flame you for it
> [{quoted}](name=Trias000,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OA7u632m,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-04-09T23:29:39.658+0000) > > Not if they flame you for it No, you did something wrong and they got mad at you. You are the reason they are angry, so you are responsible for making things right.
Drugoth (NA)
: How about a simple confirmation box for if you try to ban someone's intended pick? > "Your teammate (soandso) intends to pick > Kai'sa, are you sure you want to ban their pick?" > **Yes** No
> [{quoted}](name=The Yung Sheets,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OA7u632m,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-09T22:53:51.706+0000) > > How about a simple confirmation box for if you try to ban someone&#x27;s intended pick? This is a good idea. The only time it wouldn't be useful is if the champion were Yasuo.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5hGQr51J,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T22:26:16.704+0000) > > Pings are better for shotcalling and don&#x27;t require the player to stop playing in order to communicate. Pre-game chat is sufficient for discussing team composition, post-game is enough for thanking people for a good game. In-game is not used enough for positive gameplay to justify the reputation it gives LoL. The way the punishment system is set up now, it encourages players to troll > via gameplay since that can&#x27;t be automatically checked. Far more devastating to the game than being forced to use the very convenient ping and timer system Riot has put effort into making. If you watch any of the higher elo streams, you&#x27;ll see how little a team of 5 strangers needs any other communication to play a great game They have comms lmao ofc they don't need to use chat. Using chat AND pings is better than just pings. You can't tell someone what items to build using pings. You can't tell someone what formation to go with pings. You have to direct your team while keeping the game a toxic free environment.
> [{quoted}](name=Alevity Xiaku,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5hGQr51J,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T22:36:17.250+0000) > > They have comms lmao ofc they don&#x27;t need to use chat. > Using chat AND pings is better than just pings. You can&#x27;t tell someone what items to build using pings. You can&#x27;t tell someone what formation to go with pings. You have to direct your team while keeping the game a toxic free environment. You shouldn't be telling people how to build stuff unless you know them and are helping them learn (so should be using comms anyway). Most people don't want to be told how to play, when you tell people who don't want to hear it then things get toxic. It's easy enough to have a Discord set up and invite people in the pre-game lobby to that. Maybe chat could be OK in bot games, but in PVP/competitive modes, it is almost always a disaster.
: There should be a report system in champ select
So something you did by accident made somebody understandably pissed off and instead of just sort of rolling your eyes at their dumb, immature response, you want them banned? Why shouldn't you be banned for not paying attention? Why should anyone be punished at all since it's a video game and stuff like this happens? What would you say if someone banned your champion given that it's a tactic used by people as a passive-aggressive form of trolling? Some people do it so that someone else dodges and they don't have to play an autofill role.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5hGQr51J,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:47:58.368+0000) > > No, it is not a fallacy. People troll and ruin games all the time and are not punished. The ones who are punished are overwhelmingly punished based on chat logs which show one side of a story, recorded from a feature which has outlived its usefulness- both because of the in-game communication functions and the frequency of people using Discord. It does more harm than good and overwhelmingly encourages trolling in all directions, and should be treated like that by the developer. The chat function can be used to shot call and do any of the things I mentioned in the OP. Chat goes a long way for directing your team to victory.
> [{quoted}](name=Alevity Xiaku,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=5hGQr51J,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T22:08:15.786+0000) > > The chat function can be used to shot call and do any of the things I mentioned in the OP. > Chat goes a long way for directing your team to victory. Pings are better for shotcalling and don't require the player to stop playing in order to communicate. Pre-game chat is sufficient for discussing team composition, post-game is enough for thanking people for a good game. In-game is not used enough for positive gameplay to justify the reputation it gives LoL. The way the punishment system is set up now, it encourages players to troll via gameplay since that can't be automatically checked. Far more devastating to the game than being forced to use the very convenient ping and timer system Riot has put effort into making. If you watch any of the higher elo streams, you'll see how little a team of 5 strangers needs any other communication to play a great game
Suolalamppu (EUNE)
: Starting LOL as a new player
> [{quoted}](name=Suolalamppu,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=qpn0PMmg,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:54:49.982+0000) > > I recently started LOL and as you can guess I am not really good at it yet. I am only level 15 and almost every game I play has 1-2 really really good players with like 35+ - 3 - smt as their final stats. It&amp;#039;s not only like all my losses feels like it&amp;#039;s because there is far superior player in the enemy team, it also feels like every victory is because i just got some diamond player on my team. I feel like I don&amp;#039;t really learn much as every late game is just one person going totally ham on the enemy team and if you are on the same team you just follow him/her and try to get assists. I get it that it&amp;#039;s fun to totally destroy a noob team if you are good but damn does it suck if you just started the game. Does ranked have the same issue when i start playing it and is there any good tips to get better at the game other than playing it because it doesn&amp;#039;t seem to help that much. I have gotten better at lane face but that&amp;#039;s about it. I&amp;#039;ve gotten like S- grade few times but i just tailed some pro. You'll want to play normal draft, read guides, and have a lot of games with a few champs (your "champion pool" - not just all of the champions you own, but 5 or 6 you enjoy and are good at) under your belt before you go into ranked. It is a lot more intense. The snowball meta is just what seems to happen now as AD items are OP, you'll see it happen in ranked but the games generally end a bit sooner because they're objective oriented whereas blind pick is not nearly as coordinated and normal draft is more casual as well. Once you get to ranked you will be placed in queue with, generally speaking, people of similar skill after placements, but the placements (10 games) can be pretty brutal because of how competitive it is. You'll want to be prepared. It is more fun than normal once you have an idea of what is expected of you and you start improving.
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Lux OP

Level 47 (NA)
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