Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 8
Hey Meddler, Can we talk about Janna's decaying shield for a bit? I don't mind that the shield decays, however I find it frustrating that I'm punished for using her shield correctly. If I shield right as damage is coming in, and the shield is chunked for 90% of its value, the remaining shield value decays instantly and my target loses the AD bonus. What do you think about making the MAX value of the shield decay? Would this add too much power to her?
: Riot Your Ranked Matchmaking is Garbage
Keep in mind that you aren't matched based on your rank, you're match based on your hidden MMR. Your MMR sometimes isn't directly in line with your visible rank, which is what causes disproportionate LP gains/losses (Ex. +25 LP for a win, -12 LP for a loss). Just keep playing for a while and your rank and matchmaking will even out as the season progresses.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 12
> Buffs to some enchanters are likely at some point early next year. Would like to get a bit of peel back into the game, though don't want to swing too hard and over correct either, so probably will separate champ changes from Forbidden Idol item buffs. With respect to Janna, can you consider removing her passive MS aura in favour of putting peel into the active parts of her kit? It's frustrating to play against permanent, always-available peel that has zero counter play a la 8% free movement speed for all enemies running towards the janna. At least you can outplay other parts of her kit, but the passive is ridiculous free power.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 19
Hi Meddler, Everytime I see changes to Janna I get nervous. You mentioned last thread that she overperforms in lower elos and underperforms in higher elos. I'm confident her passive movement speed aura is a huge source of hidden power. Not only does it provide zero counterplay for opponents (she's always providing her allies 8% MS, that's a lot of MS), it has little to no skill expression for the Janna player. Why not straight up remove her passive MS aura and put power into the rest of her kit? You don't even need to do anything crazy or come up with a new passive. Remove the aura, see what it does to her power level, and give her power back in the form of shield CD/mana cost, ult heal/knock back distance etc.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 12
>Janna - Is currently weak in regular play (especially versus historic expectations). Pro play's also light on enchanters. We're testing a light buff to her passive conversion. Don't want to over buff, but interested in seeing if we can get a bit more niche variety at least in the support position. Buffing the amount of damage her AAs and W get from movement speed's what we're looking at because those are aspects of her kit that tend to have more impact at higher skill levels and Janna's historically overperformed at low/average MMR versus high. Could we see a removal of her ally bonus movement speed passive in favour of buffs to the rest of her kit? It's such a huge source of hidden power that has no counter play, and requires little to no thought process from the Janna player. It's a completely non-interactive part of her kit that skews her win rate.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 4
Hey Meddler, I've been asking for years and haven't seen any real answers. We've had a ton of nerfs to enchanters recently. Reduction of team snowballing hits support gold income especially hard, idol nerfs, shield nerfs etc. However, I still haven't seen the most deserved Janna nerf - her passive. Providing her entire team with virtually always available 8% MS is an insane passive which skews her power level. Why is this free-stat, ridiculously powerful passive with near-zero interaction or thought process required from the player allowed in the game? Janna received a flat 5 MS nerf earlier and balancers explained how hard 5 MS nerfs hit champions, yet her passive provides all her nearby allies with more than t1 boots of MS, for free all the time. Can we expect see her receive a new passive and have some power restored into her active kit?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 29
Hey Meddler, I've been asking for years and haven't seen any real answers. We've had a ton of nerfs to enchanters recently. Reduction of team snowballing hits support gold income especially hard, idol nerfs, shield nerfs etc. However, I still haven't seen the most deserved Janna nerf - her passive. Providing her entire team with virtually always available 8% MS is an insane passive which skews her power level. Why is this free-stat, ridiculously powerful passive with near-zero interaction or thought process required from the player allowed in the game? Janna received a flat 5 MS nerf earlier and balancers explained how hard 5 MS nerfs hit champions, yet her passive provides all her nearby allies with *more than t1 boots of MS, for free all the time*. Can we expect see her receive a new passive and have some power restored into her active kit?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 6
Two questions: With each change to reduce team snowballing, the income of supports is hit far more than other roles. One of the reasons for nerfing heal/shield items is their gold efficiency as supports now have access to more gold. If support income is being hit by reducing team snowballing, is there caution being taken that these item nerfs don't compound too hard with income nerfs? With Janna specifically, I consider her passive to be the most powerful part of her kit. Being a rather non-interactive passive that provides a ton of power, are there plans to replace/remove it with something more interactive that allows players to express skill?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20
I'm sure you've seen a ton of discussion regarding Janna lately. For seasons I've seen Riot shave numbers off her kit when she was considered "too effective" - like last patch. However, her passive remains untouched. Why allow such a powerful, free, hidden power passive on her? It's absolutely the reason for her inflated win rate. 8% movement speed provided to her entire team just for existing takes away so much from her power budget, and it's largely a "forget it existed" passive. Her passive has no downtime, no windows of counterplay. If Janna exists somewhere locally, your opponents have t1 boots worth of movement speed on you if they happen to be walking towards her - without Janna even having to think about it. Why not replace it with something more interactive, or straight up remove it in favour of buffing her interactive kit? It'll deflate her win-rate heavily and give room to provide her with more fun mechanics.
: I agree she is likely to be in a weak state after these changes as one of the more mana hungry champions not getting direct changes. Can't guarantee she'll receive compensation buffs in 8.9, but I'll make sure the designers are aware and we are keeping an eye on her. Thanks for the comment!
Hey, Just wanted to throw in that Nami players often also pick up spellthief's and tear. Hitting spellthiefs and tear in one patch makes Nami a sad sushi.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=gikJEw03,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-09-27T21:25:56.611+0000) > > Why not just straight up remove the part of her passive that gives allies bonus movement speed for moving towards her? > > It's the most boring part of her kit, and a ton of free power that players generally don't think about. She doesn't need it, that part of her power budget should be invested into more fun parts of her kit. > > Now that she has a passive which gives her flat MS and bonus damage, the ally movement speed is unnecessary. I always try to take advantage of this passive and it's very strong paired with the passive of Talisman of Ascension aka old Captain enchantment. It feels great chasing down a lone, fleeing enemy with my team behind me as I lead because I know they cannot outrun a constant 16% movement speed buff on my team as we steadily close the gap and then I use a Zephyr to seal their fate. It also adds to Janna's potential to save teammates that are trying to escape. Once I get in range of them fleeing towards me, casting a shield on them and charging up a Howling Gale, my ally can now outrun their enemies to safety to the sanctuary that is Janna. Even if I miss my Q the movement speed will still help and that's my major concern. Now if anything were to change if they removed the ally bonus speed from her passive, I would hope that they keep the ally haste somewhere on her kit. I wouldn't enjoy it if I were as swift as the wind but my teammates were terribly slow and unable to keep up with me. They could make the shield also give the speed buff like Karma, but that would lessen Karma's impact on the game as a support. They could make her ult give a speed buff, but it's almost contradictory because Janna is trying to remain in place channeling a heal but also enabling her allies to run ahead and engage on the enemy, leaving her ult or flee from her enemies but still not taking advantage of the healing. I'd rather have the movement speed scaling damage on W be converted to an increased slow % for more utility because outside of lane, the bit of extra damage won't be as valuable.
All the reasons you like the passive highlight its problem. > It feels great chasing down a lone, fleeing enemy with my team behind me as I lead because I know they cannot outrun a constant 16% movement speed buff on my team as we steadily close the gap and then I use a Zephyr to seal their fate. Very little counter play to this, and it doesn't require any display of skill from the Janna player. > It also adds to Janna's potential to save teammates that are trying to escape. Once I get in range of them fleeing towards me, casting a shield on them and charging up a Howling Gale, my ally can now outrun their enemies to safety to the sanctuary that is Janna. Even if I miss my Q the movement speed will still help and that's my major concern. If you miss,** your team-mate should die.** Her passive should not act as a fail-safe. You have the tools available to peel for your allies, it's on you to use them correctly.
: Janna Hotfix Context
Why not just straight up remove the part of her passive that gives allies bonus movement speed for moving towards her? It's the most boring part of her kit, and a ton of free power that players generally don't think about. She doesn't need it, that part of her power budget should be invested into more fun parts of her kit. Now that she has a passive which gives her flat MS and bonus damage, the ally movement speed is unnecessary.
Danjeng (NA)
: Not bashing on a support's ideas, but how would your support's Rabadon's work? How would an ability's utilityness be determined? It would be difficult to program such an item. Some mages have scaling shields, and would love to rush this item. Also, there are alternative ward items besides Sightstone. But I agree with you that there should be some way to utilize support's AP scalings.
Does this AP scale damage? If no, it must be scaling utility. I see absolutely no problem with a mage choosing to rush a utility death cap. All that does is expand the existing number of playstyles for champions. Sounds like a healthy change to me. Though I would likely name the death cap and the utility cap passives the same so they can't stack (in this case death cap would take priority making the utility cap redundant and not worth stacking).
: Janna presently has a 55% win rate with the 2nd highest play rate among supports, I don't even want to imagine what playing against her with a cheap utility-deathcap on top of winspeakers and all of the other healing support items would be like. Her base shield/ult values would have to be drastically nerfed to balance something like that out. I generally agree that healer/ranged AP supports shouldn't be shoe-horned into building tanky though. Redemption's active is absolutely busted, I have no idea what in the world they were thinking when they designed it.
Janna has her own set of kit problems, she needs a rework. I wouldn't want to see the health of an entire sub class not be improved because of an outlier. As I mentioned in the "potential problems with these solutions" though, yes I do agree base would have to be reduced in favour of ap ratios.
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-11-15T23:34:19.348+0000) > > What are Syndra and Brand going to do with a crucible or unholy grail? Not a damn thing. But they won't buy those items. They'll buy Chalice, because a single cheap item that gives some AP and MANA REGEN, the stat that every Mage has been missing since pots were removed, is super efficient to rush. Then they farm up, stay in lane longer and get their first item only slightly later. AP is a Mage stat. Mana regen is a support stat. Not to mention if you give Chalice AP it increases the AP on Grail.
That would only be the case if there didn't exist better item rushes. Lost chapter gives far more mana than a chalice would, and sets up a morello rush. The worst mid players would pick up a chalice. In any case, if chalice was provided with a passive/active that tailored to enchanters your concern wouldn't exist. Mana regen for supports/mana for mages is a stupid point. I still build tear on nami, I just go for whatever lets me round out a build and have enough mana to cast my spells.
: If Chalice had AP mages would build it.
What are Syndra and Brand going to do with a crucible or unholy grail?
: Technically there's nothing stopping you from building glass canon on most supports. You could just go for a mage-like build, with stuff like Morellonomicon, Rylai's, Seraph's (most supports are spammy enough to charge a tear), Deathcap, and so on. You probably wouldn't go for Void Staff, Abyssal, or Luden's since you're not in it for the damage, but the raw ap would really jack up the heals and shields even though you're lacking items that build out of Forbidden Idol and you won't have the Unholy Grail passive. Why is that apparently not something you wish to pursue?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=janna+mechanics I do build straight AP. I build censer, then a death cap. I'm well aware the "tank" options are more gold-efficient, but it's just not as fun. It's the same reason I built locket in maybe one every 20 games past two seasons. My Nami build does start with tear, I go censer -> seraph's -> deathcap. It's effective, definitely way more fun than building the tanky items, but it's not a supported playstyle. I want more items like ardent censer.
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T02:58:28.029+0000) > > Hi! > > Since this is a hot topic I'd like to throw in my two cents on some Support role improvements, current frustrations, and ideas on alleviating those frustrations. I'm going to cut you off right from the start to answer the question that's eluding Meddler, and possibly you as well. The reason people don't like to support isn't because of the feel-good-ness of what you're doing (contrary to popular belief, allies will notice multi-man Sona ults, they'll notice a Soraka or a Janna that prevents their team dying, and they'll abso-f***ing-lutely notice a Blitzcrank with a godhand), it's not because of their itemization or gold issues (which is an unfixable problem as I'll detail ahead), it's not because of leveling, it's because they're the team goat. That's the nature of being a support, you don't win on your own, you help other players win unless you're playing Vel'Koz, Zyra, or Brand. Most people who play League like to win, and if you wanna win you have to carry, and supports don't carry directly, they carry by proxy. (Oh, and they also get to spend the first 10 minutes of the game paired up with the right-clickers, the class that attracts the stupidest, most vain, and whiniest of players. You bet your ass I look forward to when bot outer falls so I can spend the mid game helping our mid or top instead) With *that* out of the way... Why do you have such a rage boner for building durability on enchanters? You keep saying that getting tanky doesn't "feel good" but in my opinion staying alive feels great and dying feels like garbage. Since most enchanters are geared around the notion of keeping somebody ELSE on their team alive, they're wasting their purpose if they use their abilities to protect themselves, and if they're building squishy, they're going to be an incidental target in team fights pretty easily.
Why support is less popular is a complex question with a complex answer. Neither of us can explicitly state the source of the issue. I'm here discussing my pain points of support. I've played the role for five seasons, experienced a huge number of changes, and wanted to offer the design team some insight. With respect to building tanky, I hate it because it's not fun to play as or against. An enchanter providing a ton of heals **should** be an easy target to kill. Clear example: Soraka. Often, you'll hear people claim she's really annoying/unfun to play against. Look at her builds, they're all tank-based. Sure, it might be fun for you to pump out ridiculous heals and never die, but it's frustrating as hell to play against. If Soraka could dish out ridiculous heals, but be killable and a worthy target to take out, both sides have more fun. The same applies to other enchanters. Fun for you doesn't necessarily mean healthy and fun for the entire game. A champion that can 1hit delete everyone with a spell would be "fun" for you. Of course dying sucks, the solution to that is better positioning. I'm a confident believer that a healthy gameplay pattern for enchanters is squishy but high-impact. Noticeable shields and heals, exceptional utility that scales well, and the items to support that build path.
: There was a Trinket for Pinks already in season 5 i think, this one here:{{item:3362}}. In terms of balance, it only has 1 charge, has double the recharge time of a normal ward, and comparing it to sweeper: {{item:3341}} has a better castrange, for safer scouting, {{item:3364}} covers a far bigger area then the 1 Pink/Control Ward. So it should be balanced in terms of trinket power/balance. Some might want an extra Itemslot for them, but i think that makes the inventory and the keybindings overloaded, so i would rather advise against that. Do you have other ideas or concerns? We need to give Riot a fully fleshed out solution so they cant turn us down once they heard that idea >:D
The issue with pink ward slot is it stems from other problems. Supports are expected to keep a slot open for pinks because we don't have good, cohesive itemization. That sixth item doesn't augment the previous five we built. Other champions need that sixth item because they scale better with items. Supports are expected to control the vision game, they already dedicate a slot to sightstone after all. Those 3 together make the pink ward issue much worse. The solution could be a pink-ward slot, or a trinket, but we have to understand that other expectations from supports worsen the issue. Can we ever justify a pink trinket over the scanner? Is the scanner objectively better? How would a pink ward slot completely change the vision game (make snowballing worse, 5 pink wards on the map nearly all the time etc.) I do acknowledge it as a pain point but I'm curious how the problem changes if the reasons for the expectation of saving an item slot on support are addressed.
: It's really cool to see such a comprehensive post. Forgive my ignorance on the support role as a whole, but do you think Riot would be able to implement such changes without splitting up AP into two groups as they did with armor pen and lethality?
The concept of "utility power" is interesting. I don't think enough champions have or use utility scaling to justify it though. Heal/shield power is a good solution, it just doesn't benefit utility scaling. Offering more AP on enchanter items plus some sort of utility deathcap should be enough IMO, but I would never rule out a potential change like that. If it's the optimal solution I'm interested to explore it, but I don't think it's necessary just yet.
: Bingo. As a utility/enchanter support main, I felt like the point was well-taken. Though as unique and mechanically different as each of them is, overall you still have to do similar things as the game come closer to an end. If there would ever be a support rework (really carefully using the word 'rework'), give them a unique role-playing identity like the new assassins.
I think riot has improved on their "reworks" lately, an enchanter rework pass, with itemization improvements, smaller changes to tank supports, it could be successful. I do think Janna, Sona, Nami, Soraka, and Lulu would benefit from kit improvements. Janna in particular has a slew of issues that can be improved on heavily.
: Can I convince you to include a trinket for Control Wards? So we sups can finaly have 6 itemsslots again! That would be my greatest wish for improving the support playstyle!
I will include having to save a slot for pinks as a frustration point, you're definitely right about that. I don't know if it being a trinket is the correct solution, that might be up for discussion.
Rioter Comments
: Nope, borders are remaining exactly the same from last year. I'm curious though, what exactly about the borders aren't you a fan of?
The 2015 Master border is a nerfed version of the 2014 Master border. [Here is one thread that describes why the new master tier border is bad.](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/7JMguMW3-who-designed-the-master-border-it-looks-so-ugly) Additionally, Master tier needs division markers to reward people for maintaining high LP counts with Master. Otherwise, someone who pops into master tier 10 days before the season ends is given the same reward as someone who has been fighting and maintaining 250-300+ LP master the entire season. This season I had no reason to adhere to the 1-game-per-day decay rules in master. I let myself decay to diamond 1, waited until 10 days before the season ends, and popped into master tier. I'm receiving the same end-of-season rewards as I would have if I ended the season at 350 LP master while playing one game per day for the past two months, that's unfair.
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8mMn4EeO,comment-id=001e0000,timestamp=2016-10-10T02:57:20.143+0000) > > Everything you're saying is irrelevant because I can log into the game, and not pick one of her two expensive skins with these issues, > > I don't care what Riot chooses to do with her base skins. If Riot decides to make her base Q more noticeable, by all means, I don't care. Right now, with respect to her base Q, SG Janna is way more noticeable. That's not okay. > > With that said, you're still completely off with regards to how her Q should appear visually. The true issue with her Q right now isn't how discreet the charging VFX is. The true issue with her Q is how the knock up duration varies from 0.5s-1.25s and yet the VFX is static. That is far beyond the potential toxicity levels of a discreet charging particle, but if you can't even recognize that as the real issue then you shouldn't be criticizing me for comparing SG particles to base particles. > > This thread strictly focuses on the comparison between her expensive skins and her base skins. If you want to start a discussion about her VFX in general, you're welcome to, but it's not relevant here. SG Janna is louder than base, making it more obvious, and pay to lose. If Riot decides to make her base Q louder (though I can't imagine it ever being as loud as SG solely because of the contrast) because they've acknowledged a clarity issue, then they've completely missed the real clarity problems with that spell. How is everything im saying irrelevant? You say the VFX should be static when you don't know how Riot wants to implement the spell. Maybe it hasn't been changed because the issue has never been brought to the forefront with this much attention until now? You have to remember that Janna was released in 2009 and her last skin before forecast was 2011 while forecast was late 2013. The only changes made to her afterwards were retextures. So it's highly likely that the drastic noise change went unnoticed. Both of her more recent skins both have louder and more noticeable tornadoes, so you can make a guess as to what noise levels Janna is intended to be at currently. Now you can probably expect them to change something about the skins due to the demand if they look at this post. I'm pretty sure I can see the issue with a 0.5s - 1.25s knockup having a static VFX if the champion still is sitting at a 53.7% winrate and I can criticize anybody who posts on a public forum. Can I ask you though. Are we going to change PROJECT Zed's ultimate? His ultimate VFX makes it so that the mark shows when its about to detonate rather then it being a 3 second timer. Makes it so you don't need to count. Opponents can visually react rather then instinctively count. That's essentially pay to lose, right? Also, Arcade Ezreal's ultimate shows a directional arrow right before it fires. Makes it so people can theoretically dodge it, that's pay to lose right? Let's get rid of that. So on and so forth. Yes, all of these are hypothetical scenarios where the skin can be pay to lose, but does it have a significant impact on regular gameplay and especially those not in your elo? That's debatable. When I said that the tornado's strength is not knowing the direction it will be fired in was not irrelevant, it was alluding to this very point. The strength of the skill is not how quiet it is, rather, the ambiguity of the direction it will be fired in so will this impact her gameplay significantly? Dunno she's still at almost 54% winrate. So, before you call my post irrelevant, I agreed to your statement saying yes, there shouldnt be big differences according to which skin she uses(even though to me her ultimate is clear as day to me), but you need to consider the history of Janna and maybe think about several other skins that received similar treatment. You are still choosing to buy and use the skin when you do it.
The team that designs and implements skins is not the same team that makes complex decisions that involve how visible a champion's spells should be. When Forecast and SG Janna's particles were designed, they were designed by the skins team. The skins team has a history of being out-of-touch with expected visual clarity of a champion's VFX, be they not clear enough or too clear. For you to claim that Riot's standards may have changed is just inaccurate, because the team who has the authority to make that decision is not related to the team who designs skins. Forecast and SG are just an example of the skins team failing to maintain the same level of clarity as the base skin. That's exactly why Riot has been doing a pass on all competitively banned skins recently, they want to address the short comings of the skins team with respect to visual clarity. If we're going to discuss clarity issues, her tornado knock up duration not being telegraphed is far more important than the charge particle's clarity. Are SG Janna's clarity issues going to impact her gameplay significantly? Probably not. Are SG Janna's clarity issues going to impact her gameplay just enough to ensure that it's not picked in any competitive game? Yes. That's the issue here. Win rate is irrelevant, riot doesn't balance around win rates. They're an interesting statistic to analyze but not the sole reason any changes are made. With that said though, her win rate is at 53-54% because her passive is unbelievable amounts of free-access hidden power. When riot finally decides to address that, her win rate will collapse. VFX changes won't have a drastic effect on win rate, less than half a % will change. Arcade Ezreal recieved a direction arrow because it lacks the gigantic energy bow that the rest of his skins develop which clearly indicate direction. Project zed does have a slightly more telegraphed pop, but comparing it to classic it isn't too far off. That said, if someone who played zed a lot actually considered it an issue and complained about it, I'd support seeing it changed to match the visual telegraph of the classic skin.
: I don't get it. Your whole argument is using a preconceived notion that Riot intended for those abilities to be quiet, and go almost unnoticed. Even though her two most recent skins do the exact opposite, so what do you think Riot's direction is? Janna is already a top tier support. The strength of the tornado is not the fact that you cant hear it being casted, but the ambiguity of the direction it will be casted in. A forming of a tornado shouldn't be discreet. Edit: Re-read the post. I agree that her ultimate ability should have a clarity fix.
Everything you're saying is irrelevant because I can log into the game, and not pick one of her two expensive skins with these issues, I don't care what Riot chooses to do with her base skins. If Riot decides to make her base Q more noticeable, by all means, I don't care. Right now, with respect to her base Q, SG Janna is way more noticeable. That's not okay. With that said, you're still completely off with regards to how her Q should appear visually. The true issue with her Q right now isn't how discreet the charging VFX is. The true issue with her Q is how the knock up duration varies from 0.5s-1.25s and yet the VFX is static. That is far beyond the potential toxicity levels of a discreet charging particle, but if you can't even recognize that as the real issue then you shouldn't be criticizing me for comparing SG particles to base particles. This thread strictly focuses on the comparison between her expensive skins and her base skins. If you want to start a discussion about her VFX in general, you're welcome to, but it's not relevant here. SG Janna is louder than base, making it more obvious, and pay to lose. If Riot decides to make her base Q louder (though I can't imagine it ever being as loud as SG solely because of the contrast) because they've acknowledged a clarity issue, then they've completely missed the real clarity problems with that spell.
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8mMn4EeO,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-10T01:02:34.691+0000) > > A pro player will not bother with a cute skin if it puts them at a disadvantage. I'd like to see some high quality Janna skins played in LCS, but no serious pro player would bother with any sort of competitive disadvantage. I'm a serious competitive player, but not those young tryhards which we call pro's because that's what they choose to do with their lives
If you opt for aesthetic over functionality, you are not a serious competitive player.
Investa (NA)
: Not to spit in the face of our Master Tier Janna god here, but these grievances seems rather minor even for what they represent. The star's providing additional visual noise to draw the eyes to the tornado as opposed to the very bland looking grey tornado, this is relying on enemies not seeing the tornado coming on their screen at all, is it not? People usually get hit by it from surprise with little time to react or their movement betrays them (at least in lowly silver) and by tunnel visioning; and here I can see this being a problem with redirecting their attention to the oncoming skill-shot but, I don't think any skill-shot has the responsibility of being stealthy. As for the healing circle, the variance of color intensity is visible but I don't see this as large enough a disparity to cause people to just visually be unable to see it and walkout of it, especially with other cues telling a person she is ulting. Forecast for example makes a very exaggerated noise when ulting that you'd have to have your sound off completely to not hear, and her movement is very erratic as well. I mean I don't know, I'm just a pleb that needs to get good, but I just don't want this to be a case of selective bias. No offense is intended, it can literally be something extraneous that you notice from playing so much Janna that is inconsequential for the very fact that nobody else notices it because they have less experience; and when the issue is how noticeable these spells are, I think the ignorance speaks for itself. AGAIN THOUGH, just a scrub and I might be applying psychology completely needlessly here. Who knows? {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
You could similarly argue that the grievances caused by skins like steel legion lux in the past were minor as well, yet those skins were banned from competitive play. If there exists a set of skins that are considered too much of an advantage to be legal in competitive play, I find it perfectly reasonable that there can also exist skins that are a competitive disadvantage. Both are a result of visual changes to skin VFX. When you look at SG Janna's ultimate on its own, yeah it's not a big deal. When you consider how that VFX looks in a noisy team fight, it's problematic. In any case, it's enough of a problem that I refuse to use it in a ranked game. Whether you find it petty/minor or not is your personal opinion, but if Riot acknowledges skins can be competitive advantages, there definitely can exist skins that are competitive disadvantages.
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8mMn4EeO,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-10-09T23:43:54.693+0000) > > The only adapting I'm going to be doing is not giving riot money for a poor quality skin. I'm not complaining about a nerf or change to my champion's kit. She's seen plenty of nerfs and I personally think her passive needs to be nerfed further. Reasonable but as adults some of us are sucked into CUTE skins, I may eventually buy all of the Star skins only 3 to buy. I like to adapt on certain skin mechanics since it makes you better as a player if you enjoy a challenge.
A pro player will not bother with a cute skin if it puts them at a disadvantage. I'd like to see some high quality Janna skins played in LCS, but no serious pro player would bother with any sort of competitive disadvantage.
: the reason I bring it up is generally you want spells to be both readable and exciting to use, and able to make exciting alternatives with skins that aren't pay to lose ps how often do you even use the tornado charge up mechanic? I just started playing janna more and I've mostly used it with the immediate cast so far
As I mentioned in another comment, her base Q has far worse readability issues than being mildly difficult to see. The spell can knock you up from anywhere between 0.5s and 1.25s, yet that information isn't telegraphed at all.
Foucz (EUNE)
: I dont care. I want to keep my pretty particles.
That's why a good skin creator will maintain similar levels of clarity and still offer unique particles. See: literally every other SG skin.
: Janna Mechanics since you main her "YOU must learn to adapt" it's the adult way of life, Riot may tweak champions but you must have some patience.
The only adapting I'm going to be doing is not giving riot money for a poor quality skin. I'm not complaining about a nerf or change to my champion's kit. She's seen plenty of nerfs and I personally think her passive needs to be nerfed further.
: What if the solution is to make her basic tornadoes more readable
Miudmon (EUNE)
: To be fair, it is a bit too difficult at times to see her classic skin's tornado - if anything, THAT is the one that needs a bit more visual noise, not the other around.
Her tornado has far bigger clarity issues than visibility alone. The spell can knock up for anywhere between 0.5s-1.25s. Problem is, visual doesn't reflect that. There is no way to tell how long an incoming tornado will knock you up for. That is a much higher priority than anything else with respect to visual clarity IMO.
: What's your favorite Janna skin? In terms of visuals
Honestly I think all of her skins are bland and uninteresting. I often end up playing frost queen because the visuals are a bit more clear. Hextech/Tempest/Fnatic/Victorious are all okay, I don't mind rotating between them because the graphics don't change (W slightly different but not relevant). I only use them because I have no other option, if an actual good Janna skin came out (a la reaper soraka/deep sea nami) I would never use anything else.
: Oh we will listen, but Riot won't, because they want all that delicious $$$
Interestingly enough, Riot not addressing these issues will actually cost them money! Nobody is going to play these skins in LCS/Pro play since they're pay to lose, so Riot won't get any skin advertisement as a result.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: State of the Season: Mid-Season followup
Re: Support changes patch Recently, FQC was nerfed (again), having its mana regen reduced from 100% to 75%. This seems like it was a result of the (deserved) frostfang nerf, from 100% to 75% mana regen. However, players already shifted away from FQC in favour of EotW. Why was FQC nerfed when it was already the unfavoured option compared to EotW (which kept 100% mana regen)? Would you consider applying restrictions to FQC that allow you guys to give it great stats without letting mid laners abuse it? For example, only allowing players to upgrade to FQC after acquiring a certain threshold of gold from frostfang. Jungle items are allowed to be gold efficient because they're locked behind Smite, so locking FQC behind acquiring gold through frostfang passive might give you guys more room to increase the gold efficiency of FQC.
: Patch Chat 6.11 - Better Nerf Irelia
1. Last patch, FQC was nerfed (again), having its mana regen reduced from 100% to 75%. This seems like it was a result of the (deserved) frostfang nerf, from 100% to 75% mana regen. However, players already shifted away from FQC in favour of EotW. Why was FQC nerfed when it was already the unfavoured option compared to EotW (which kept 100% mana regen)? 2. Would you consider applying restrictions to FQC that allow you guys to give it great stats without letting mid laners abuse it? For example, only allowing players to upgrade to FQC after acquiring a certain threshold of gold from frostfang. Jungle items are allowed to be gold efficient because they're locked behind Smite, so locking FQC behind acquiring gold through frostfang passive might give you guys more room to increase the gold efficiency of FQC.
Meddler (NA)
: Not sure on Soraka yet. If we had to guess, looks somewhat weaker but appropriately so. That's very, very much a guess though.
If Soraka turns out to be slightly weaker than anticipated, please first consider giving her back the ability to clear grievous wounds with her ultimate. It feels really crappy playing against grievous wounds when there is literally nothing I can do to deal with it. I'd also be all for nerfing her base values and giving her bigger AP ratios. I think a Soraka who has to build AP for effective healing is more fun to play as/against, considering building AP makes her a much easier target to focus down.
: > Enchanters have always struggled keeping up with the vision game. What? This is based on what exactly? I don't like how you just make a blanket statement without much backing towards it. Please elaborate and give examples because I'm not buying it. Vision control has always been a thing very detached from champ matchups. > The active I suggest allows you to kill one visible ward, within a given range (hell we can make it melee if you think it's that much of an issue), on a cooldown that can be significant. Even putting my opinion of how overpowered i find it, the idea is then self defeating. Since you have to build the item to completion AND you are suggesting making it even more expensive for the class with the least money, then by the time you get it,it will be pointless since contesting wards isn't even remotely a support v support issue outside of lane phase, by which time you will have already left before completing the item. Again, being ranged is a huge advantage when it comes to clearing wards since you have a positional advantage, and even reducing the clear to melee range on the active wouldn't be worth having to give up that safety to begin with. You aren't gonna walk up to melee range of Leona after she places a ward to just to click and clear it. > If it was instantly killing one visible ward within 300 units of you every 45 seconds, that's perfectly reasonable. This would basically give you utter control of the vision game. A single ward lasts for 30-60 seconds. It would be bought just to remove Pinks alone and invalidates them outright. You basically have the active up before a ward is even placed and have uncontested control over 1/3rd or more of your opponents vision straight up. This is before taking into account sweepers. Adding this to Ardent Censor would make it beyond broken. You are seriously undermining the power of removing vision. Every item in existence that has had this feature or anything similar has always had it as the dedicated feature of the item, and for good reason. {{item:3187}} {{item:3185}} {{item:3341}} Again, if you propose this be ADDED on top of Ardent's current passive that is unarguably over tuned. Propose it as a new item and then you have room to talk. >It would still require you to scan/pink to see the ward, and it would save you around two seconds of auto attacking/four seconds of auto attacking for pinks. Or, you could just use it the instant they place a ward since it remains visible for 2.5 seconds before going stealth. Again, if you are doing this just for sweeped Wards within safety range, the active becomes pointless. But again, the power to immediately kill a Pink ward and invalidate the purchase of them on a 45 second CD alone is OP imo. Pink Wards take 5 hits for a reason and this active would basically make protecting them a crapshoot.
> Even putting my opinion of how overpowered i find it, the idea is then self defeating. Since you have to build the item to completion AND you are suggesting making it even more expensive for the class with the least money, then by the time you get it,it will be pointless since contesting wards isn't even remotely a support v support issue outside of lane phase, by which time you will have already left before completing the item. > > Again, being ranged is a huge advantage when it comes to clearing wards since you have a positional advantage, and even reducing the clear to melee range on the active wouldn't be worth having to give up that safety to begin with. You aren't gonna walk up to melee range of Leona after she places a ward to just to click and clear it. In competitive, organized play, champions like zyra, nami, soraka, sona etc. all completely fell out of the meta because they could not keep up with thresh, leona, braum, bard, morgana, alistar etc. with the vision game. Going out to ward blind is infinitely more enchanters because of how vulnerable they are. You can't argue against the second set of champions having an infinitely easier time to ward, because if the two were on even footing, I would have actually be able to comfortably pick them in a competitive, organized game last season. They are finally relevant now with the major vision changes, including the new blue trinket, frost queens claim, a safer, longer-lasting ward sweep and other changes. Still though, you don't see enchanters picked much in competitive with respect to tanky champions. Part of that reason is they contribute less to the vision game - it's just fact. When I play Alistar, I can walk into the enemy jungle pretty confidently and clear wards/get vision. You have vastly overstated the advantage of being ranged. If I am clearing a ward in the river, I'm not in a safe position. If I'm an alistar clearing a ward in the river, I'm alistar, therefore I don't care. > It would be bought just to remove Pinks alone and invalidates them outright. > > You basically have the active up before a ward is even placed and have uncontested control over 1/3rd or more of your opponents vision straight up. This is before taking into account sweepers. > > Adding this to Ardent Censor would make it beyond broken. You are seriously undermining the power of removing vision. > > Every item in existence that has had this feature or anything similar has always had it as the dedicated feature of the item, and for good reason. > > Again, if you propose this be ADDED on top of Ardent's current passive that is unarguably over tuned. > > Propose it as a new item and then you have room to talk. At most, this active would save an enchanter one or two seconds of auto attacking. There is already a subset of champions that can clear pinks really fast, and even from range. Anyone who builds attack speed (should I even mention azir and his ability to clear wards from an insanely safe range) can wipe out a pink in under three seconds alone. If this active were on ardent censer, and you're seriously **that** concerned about how broken it is with respect to pink wards, there's still a simple solution to that - make the active range ~150. Now you have to get on top of the pink to clear it, there's plenty of room for people to defend it. Consider the champions who would actually build this item - soraka, janna, nami, sona, and now imagine them having to walk straight on top of a pink ward to use their long cooldown that allows them to clear it instantly. There is so much you can do to make an active like this not anywhere near as overwhelming as you are implying You know the opponent has an ardent censer, you know they have to get within melee range of the pink to clear it instantly, there's absolutely plenty of room for counter play. > Or, you could just use it the instant they place a ward since it remains visible for 2.5 seconds before going stealth. > Again, if you are doing this just for sweeped Wards within safety range, the active becomes pointless. > > But again, the power to immediately kill a Pink ward and invalidate the purchase of them on a 45 second CD alone is OP imo. > > Pink Wards take 5 hits for a reason and this active would basically make protecting them a crapshoot. You could also throw down another ward in response, the active would be on cooldown. Compare that to the free, 60s CD 750 radius perma-disable of all vision that lasts 10 seconds. It's not even close to the power of red trinket. You really are completely over-stating this active's power. Pink wards can already be almost instantly cleared by high-AS champions, who spend all of 1.5 seconds clearing it, from a safe range too. **In any case, my suggestion was just that - a suggestion. It would be awesome if ardent censer had some sort of active effect that contributed to the vision game. Competitively, enchanters have had a history of falling short of competing in the vision game with tank/pick supports. A vision-related active on ardent censer makes perfect sense, assuming it's tuned appropriately.**
: > Of course I would expect a cost increase attached to it Woah woah woah. okay we already have our first problem here. Increasing the cost is already an issue. Supports aren't making bank like other roles. Increasing the cost of their toys is already a big deal in of itself. >Champions like leona/blitzcrank are able to instantly kill wards on almost no cooldowns, and also risk very little when ward clearing compared to enchanters. Really dude.... This isn't even an Ap Supp vs Tank support thing. this is purely unique to those champions. Whats more is that they have to be in melee range to do it. whereas you as the ranged ap support give yourself the ability to simply click on a distant ward and zap it from existence pretty much invalidates wards healthbars. Especially Pink wards. > If you see a blitzcrank/thresh/leona attacking a ward, how likely are you to stop them compared to a soraka/nami attacking a ward? Depends purely on positioning and who has the lead, not inherently the champion match up. You as the ranged champ has the advantage of clearing the ward from a safe distance while they don't. I am speaking as a person who prefers his Lulu/Nami/Janna and feel they have gotten the short end of the stick compared to Leona Braum and Blitz for too long now. Adding this on top of the passive is just not balanced. Worse case scenario, make it its own item and then balance the stats around the active. {{item:3504}}'s issues are purely stat based. It doesn't need more utility. Especially something so OP when it already gives your team mate a free {{item:1043}} with Help Pix damage attached for every shield and heal.
Enchanters have always struggled keeping up with the vision game. The active I suggest allows you to kill *one* visible ward, within a given range (hell we can make it melee if you think it's that much of an issue), on a cooldown that can be significant. I think you're vastly over-dramatizing how strong an active like that is. The idea has a ton of parameters that can be significantly adjusted to bring it in line. If it was a five second cooldown at 1k range, yeah, that's unbalanced. If it was instantly killing one *visible* ward within 300 units of you every 45 seconds, that's perfectly reasonable. It would still require you to scan/pink to see the ward, and it would save you around two seconds of auto attacking/four seconds of auto attacking for pinks.
: > Unique Active: Instantly destroys visible targeted ward (30 second cooldown) I love Ardent and love Support but this is just broken. Especially on top of Ardent's already powerful passive. xD
Of course I would expect a cost increase attached to it, but why do you think it's broken? Champions like leona/blitzcrank are able to instantly kill wards on almost no cooldowns, and also risk very little when ward clearing compared to enchanters. If you see a blitzcrank/thresh/leona attacking a ward, how likely are you to stop them compared to a soraka/nami attacking a ward? In any case, the cooldown/range can be adjusted for balance.
Rioter Comments
: Got it. I've passed it along to the team who'd handle this. Out of curiosity, is this still occurring?
Yes. It has been happening to be consistently since the patch. I've been playing with what happens when the issue occurs, basically my entire PC locks up and I can't open new programs/interact with my desktop until I decide to right click on league to crash the client, at which point everything runs fine again.
: Oh yeah, I don't mean to minimize how impactful that passive is...
If Enchanters are ever looked at as a class that needs some love,or Janna specifically, I'd definitely support shifting (or flat out removing) power away from her passive. I appreciate the discussion, thanks for your time and input!
: Hi Marty! Thanks for reporting this! Could you attach the following to your report - **LoL Client Log** One log is created per each play session, and each file will appear like this: LolClient.20110429.200043.log (The file name will include the time it was created - in this case: April 29th, 2011 at 20:00:43 (8PM)). You can find them here: C:\Riot Games\League of Legends\RADS\projects\lol_air_client\releases\[VERSION NUMBER]\deploy\logs\ **Maestro Log** There are two Maestro logs (maestro-server.log and maestro-game_client.log): You can find them both here: C:\Riot Games\League of Legends\Logs\Maestro Logs I'll pass this on to the team who tackles this content. If we need any additional information, we'll reach out. ^-^
Sent the extra information - Thanks!
  Rioter Comments
: Hmmm...You're not wrong. I do think that Janna is probably the #1 most toxic playstyle in the game, not Zed, not Vayne, not Yasuo, Janna. And largely for the reasons you present. She has very limited windows of counterplay, and most of them run counter to the normal response you'd have. Shield? Ok, I'll just switch targets. Oh, it gives an AD buff that only goes away when I destroy it... Hmmmm... Squishy champion I need to get onto to kill? AoE knockback... Hmmmmm... Conditional skillshot based knockup? Ranged slow to set it up. I don't think it boils down to her passive. The champion just feels like she offers no gameplay to her opponents at any point.
If we were to go about addressing her kit's problems, I definitely would start with the passive. Her shield is probably the only "free" spell she gets, and generally the easiest thing to execute. Without some solid AP stats though, it's fairly weak and breaks easily. Her ultimate does have significant impact, and works really well as a cock block, but it is tied to a high cooldown and actually requires a decent amount of skill to execute properly (You can play around it by approaching her from two angles). I wouldn't consider it a "press R for guaranteed positive results" spell like Soraka/Nami/Braum ultimates which is a good thing. Her Q has been, imo, tuned in a really good way over the years. Significantly nerfing the instant tornado (range down, damage down, knock up duration down) while encouraging a charged tornado playstyle (decreased cooldown, more range, more knock up, more damage) has really pushed it into a fun spell. I'd say setting up an easy Q with W is something I don't do very often, because setting up a charged Q with a W isn't worth the investment. Even her slow, at the very minimum, has a cost associated to its use. Yeah it's a targeted slow, but it does slow Janna herself a considerable amount for using it. Over the years she's seen some good changes to her kit, but her passive has always been a core problem because it's just so damn easy to access. Playing against her, I really do think shifting her passive to something else (Or even doing something drastic like making Zephyr her passive poppy-style and giving her an entirely new W) should definitely be the first step taken to boost her playstyle's interaction. TL;DR Before anything else, definitely give her a new passive. I think that's the main offender right now, considering how it really multiplies the disengage on the rest of her kit (She slowed you/knocked you back/knocked you up/cock blocked your last spell, and now you can't even catch up because of her passive).
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Mârty

Level 117 (NA)
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