: I really appreciate seeing the effort you've taken in reading and analyzing the OP's post, and I see that probably the biggest question you had after all of this is "where can we take Singed's power away to buff him without overtuning him?" And I feel that there may be an interesting way of looking at this. Probably the part of your post that surprised me the most was that you said that you feel Singed should be tuned with his hardcore playerbase in mind over newcomers, as Singed is not a champion who has many players play who don't main him. In other words, Singed's current win percentage is a good indication of Singed's current power in the game and cannot be simply buffed. While I may not exactly agree with this way of balancing the champion, I can respect this viewpoint. But as I believe you both already stated, Singed is never a champion someone plays because they want to win the game. Now, here me out. The people who play Singed, the playerbase you say Singed is mainly tuned for, play Singed because they want to play Singed. Not because he is strong. And the current build Singed mains use is to optimally play the champion in his current state, *but no Singed main wants to play Singed like this, because it's not playing Singed anymore.* You say that Singed can't be vertically buffed because this would tip his win percentage, but if playing Singed like Singed became a REASONABLE alternative, it sounds to me that the Singed playerbase would jump to that in a heartbeat over a slightly overtuned tank Singed build. Singed mains want to main Singed, not a tanky guy who can fling someone every 7 seconds. And since new players don't tend to drift towards Singed even when he's overtuned, you would only have a non-statistically viable (or possibly slightly more/less than that) number of people playing Singed in this way. I will say though that any Singed buffs going off of this logic should probably aim to incentivize Singed building damage, perhaps by making him less reliant on building full tank, and should probably avoid rewarding you for building full tank (like the OP's suggestion of giving Q health scaling). That's only if the balance team used this logic in balancing Singed however. Now, I understand that this may be a bit of a slanted viewpoint, so I'll give a few trade-off suggestions as well. 1. If you were considering the tenacity for Singed's ult again, I would say trading off a few of his defensive numbers would be a simple way to go. 2. Remove Singed's passive for a new one. Like, almost anything. Sure, any Singed main will tell you that his passive is worthless. But unless the balance team believes Singed's passive is LITERALLY useless (in which case, it's the same as admitting Singed basically doesn't have a passive), taking it away for a new one has to have some horizontal trade-off.... 3. The best suggestion I can think of however would be to lower Singed's base AD. Early in the game, Singed's autos do a surprising amount of damage due to his surprisingly high base ad. If you check every champion in the game, Singed literally has the 3rd highest lv 1 base ad in the game. Sure, this is what allows Singed to cs in the early game, and is also why his sky-auto-attack can be so good in early trades, but if it meant getting a buff to his gameplay somewhere where he needs it, I'd say this is one of the easiest places Singed can make a trade-off without making things significantly worse for him or losing a portion of his identity. Especially if the trade-off was for one of the suggestions that helped waveclear (even if it was for later in the game), such as the w doing damage/minion damage or gas being tweaked in a way to deal with minions easier. 4. Lowering W's later rank slow %s or goo-fling %s in general (perferably the former). I'd particularly love taking the later rank slow % trade-off for the OP's suggestion of being able to cast it while moving. I personally never take W until level 8 because that split second it takes you to stop to drop it makes you lose any gain you were going to have out of it for anyone not standing right on top of you. That stationary casting time/animation makes it basically impossible to engage with your W, and risks killing you if you attempt to disengage with it. I'd suggest lowering its slow %s in general, but its early ranks are barely noticeable as a slow as it is. Until I'm nearing max rank in W (so basically lv 18), it's essentially just a last-ditch-escape goo-fling attempt when I have no other option but that or die. I'd prefer to stay away from goo-fling % nerfs as a trade-off, as they are really hard to nail and can get you out of tough situations, and that snare can be VERY helpful when it lands, but just like before goo-fling's existence, it wouldn't exactly hard Singed's identity or fun too much if it was nerfed for the sake of something else he needs. On that note, swapping the goo-fling's scaling from Singed's E to his W would actually be a major nerf to it, as no self-respecting Singed main ranks W before E. While I, once again, would prefer the goo-fling to not be nerfed, I think nerfing the scaling by swapping which skill makes it scale is another viable option. As an aside, I would not suggest nerfing Singed's Q or E in any way. Especially Singed's laugh on E. That was the most powerful buff in the game. And with that, I hope this can help to some degree. I'm just a Gold Singed main, so I probably don't know a lot of what I'm talking about, but hopefully this post is not a complete waste of your time. And thanks again for the time you've spent on this thread~
Thanks for suggestions. Moving power from E to W is interesting. Don't think it does the right things for Singed's per game power curve, but could probably smoothed out with supporting tweaks.
Aptest (EUW)
: I do not agree. TL;DR: I agree with your earlier statement that the exact nature of "who is singed" is still an open question. AP croc does not fit. Just by looking at what singed is now, I can see a distinct difference between the threat of singed, and the threat of a renekton or an irelia. here is my perspective: say I am the support, what tools do i need to control the threat? VS singed, high uptime on strong slows work well. Terrain generation is excellent. AOE shielding / healing is very useful. Regardless of the tool, I need to have a high uptime on it because singed doesn't just die to a single rotation. Renekton and Irealia require strong "point defense" and preventing them from reaching their engagement range. So, heavy single target shields, reliable hard CC preferably one that is unaffected by tenacity hi irelia passive. Probably a later commitment timing from the marksman helps too. These two champions will likely die to short focus fire as long as they are CCed and cant sustain. or here is another perspective: say i am a pick target (marksman), what exactly is the threat to me? If Renekton is on top of me and gets to combo + some AAs I die. With singed it's more a case of getting set up and eating his team's focus fire. Once I am picked the singed is just as likely to attempt and troll / zone / aoe my team than stay on top of me and finish me off. So I don't think the role of "AP renekton" is exactly what singed is supposed to do. Tank fizz or tank Ekko would much more successfully fill that niche. I agree with your earlier statement that the exact nature of "who is singed" is still an open question. Again, I call upon the OP to maybe shed some light on this matter?
Something seems to be getting lost in translation here. Maybe it's better to just ignore my second sentence.
: And as I mentioned above, your ideology of what "team-based gameplay" is sorely misguided at best; and dangerously close to fascist thinking at worst. Let me explain. ***** **One: **as with _any other multiplayer / team-based online video game since the inception of the internet_ (and yes, I was around for that; I'm 32 years old), while the needs and desires of the community are usually always taken into account as the majority (and the primary source of a company's income "overall"), it is **exceedingly imperative** also that the needs and desires of the _individual consumer and smaller "cliques" within the community_ be taken into account as well. What I mean by that is, Riot should always strive to do what's best for the community / game as a whole of course, but not throw the individual player's or smaller communities' needs and wants under the bus, either. There has to be a balance of both. ***** **Two: **In reference to proxy singed specifically; while at the onset of league's development years ago, proxy singed was developed by player(s) in order to maximize that champion's strengths specifically, _due to the inherent design of singed as a champion_. That is, **you guys created singed the way he is, as a _disrupter_ that needs to reach the backline, with only one tool in the way of farming/waveclearing**. You made the champion this way, for whatever reason, and now have a large dedicated community of singed players that adhere to the singed "lifestyle" and way of playing. **Proxy farming has been one of those methods of playing that efficiently assist singed players maximize gold income in order to win games**. By removing this capability, you have _further gimped singed in addition to the aforementioned "stealth nerfs" to singed's gameplay_. So either make him stronger in lane, or completely rework the champion. However, realize that you are effectively slicing off a portion of your consumer base with singed players that _enjoy proxy farming and the unique challenges that style of laning presents_. ***** **Three: **Again, as I said above, **players are not here to maximize/create/sustain other players' enjoyment of the game, each player must find enjoyment in the game within their own gameplay**. I will _not be held responsible for making my LANE OPPONENT 'happy' -- my purpose is to WIN games not ENTERTAIN others and CRADLE their emotional well-being_. The fact of the matter is, your version of "making the game enjoyable for everyone" means "forcing everyone to conform to a pre-determined standard of gameplay" -- i.e. **the meta-game** as set forth by Riot games. Why should _one subset_ of the community be penalized for creatively seeking ways to efficiently win games with their selected champion? Why should the modification of one champion's original design flaws by the community and evolution of that champion's playstyle be erased, simply because of lack of attention from the designers over the course of the years -- while the rest of the game evolved in an overwhelmingly hostile place for said champion? Not everyone hates proxy singed. Not everyone loves proxy singed. Hate it or love it, proxy singed _is one of the primary methods of achieving victory for singed_. In fact, **proxy farming itself is a viable method of 'laning', were there more champions capable of doing so as easily as singed**. By saying "proxy singed" is "bad for the enjoyment of the game", you are saying "proxy farming is bad for the enjoyment of the game", and by saying THAT, **you are essentially saying the only 'proper method' for playing league is by farming in the lane with your opponent for the duration of the laning phase, and all other methods that do not involve directly confronting your opponent in lane will be forcibly erased/nerfed from the game** Again, _this is enforcing a specific style of game-play aka META GAME_. ***** **Four (because I'm a jhin main)** Which brings me back to my original point; where is the line drawn between "keeping 10 players in a game happy and enjoying the game", versus "allowing the individual player to express their own creative game-play and enjoyment"? I've played since season 3 myself, and I have seen the game evolve over time due to Riot's design and game philosophies; your company and staff constantly claim to **embrace 'off-meta' / creative game-play**, but your constant re-imagining of champions and the game structure itself actually eschew off-meta play-styles. For example, **your company has a tendency to pigeon-hole champions by nerfing/gutting/reworking them _back into only one viable modality of play-style_, after the community finds alternative build paths or ways to maximize that champion's strengths and shore up their weaknesses_. You claim that you are simply making sure _"everyone can enjoy the game"_, yet you are woefully misrepresenting/misunderstanding what "everyone" means. It does not mean **the majority over the minority**, because that is not fair and balanced to the player-base as a whole. It might be "financially sound" to always side with outcry from a large group of players, but that is not morally just or fair to the other group of players that find enjoyment by theorycrafting and developing creative, unique, off-meta builds and play-styles. **You set a standard of how League is played; there are lanes, there are minion waves that must be 'farmed', there are 5 players on each side of the map opposing each other. Now you are essentially saying that the _only correct way for those players to interact with each other and the 'farm' itself, is by direct confrontation with each other at all stages of the game, within those pre-defined lanes._** ##That is the very definition of "enforcing the meta". **Summary and final point** Singed players found a way around that _specifically for their champion_; is it fun for ALL players in EVERY single match? Of course not. It's _definitely_ not going to be "fun" for the OPPOSING team -- but how can you sit here and argue a case that says _each team's "game happiness factor" HAS TO BE SATISFIED BY THE OPPOSING SIDE?_ That is simply illogical and ridiculous. **Confrontation is not meant to be "enjoyable" for the ones on the losing end; it is meant to stop opponents in any way necessary to achieve victory for yourself and your team**. If you truly want both teams to "always enjoy the game", then you should have created League to have stalemates/draws at the end, that way no one loses and everyone is happy. Either that, or never create champions like singed ever again -- and make sure _all existing and future champions' kits never allow them to be "modified" or stray from the predefined style of game-play as set forth by the community or Riot. #You cannot claim to embrace creativity and uniqueness of your players, and at the same time limit or remove the ways those players are able to express that creativity and uniqueness by limiting or removing existing champion capabilities and mechanics. ***** I hope I've made my stance as clear as possible, and if you have any questions or rebuttals, I am more than willing to clarify and/or debate with you on Riot's "game philosophy".
I see what you're getting at. I strongly disagree that heavy proxy farming has a place in LoL, but I do agree that we're overly strict on meta enforcement. We even do it in the client now with role select. Singed aside, it's a philosophical discussion that cannot be done without considering other ecosystems like e-sports. I have plenty of opinions, but am not equipped to offer you real answers. Ghostcrawler does lots of good Q&As here: https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/ if you want to try and get a better response (may already be one?). Don't mean to cop out of the conversation, but it's largely out of my realm of influence.
Aselians (NA)
: I may help on that point, ex singed main here. Summary if you don't have a lot of spare time to read : Nerf e hard, Nerf some ults stats. Then give back that power in the way you want. We can already forget about getting it out of Q and W; Q because well, it defines Singed more than everything else and W because it's just flat too weak. No prob' with it being weak, but you can't get away power from something who does not even possess it. So I believe one answer can come from either making E only a tool to allows singed the possibility to flank by removing any form of damage. Or nerfing his ult over-all on it's versatility. Lem explain it. Right now, some stats are necessary to make Singed viable (mainly move speed, armor and mr buff until a certain point) but as an whole it's just too much to allow any kind of balancing. You can't run dry of mana while you have ult, the hp reg from it let you lane thus making you want to just pop it for no "fun" or "interesting reasons" and you gain enough AP from it to allows you to build straight up full tank for no reasons. Nerfing it while gettings some crazy ratio on q and maybe a real interest of your w as an INITIATING tool instead which will allow you to follow up is right now for me the best answer.
Thanks for suggestions.
Aptest (EUW)
: I strongly disagree with you here. IMHO singed is much more of a chaos-sowing trolling maniac than a jump-your-bones guy. In addition to that both Renekton and Irelia are principally a single target threat, whereas Singed is anything but. In any case he is much closer to volibear in his overall profile IMHO in the sense that he is balanced and can serve both as a damage dealer and a pick champion, depending on the situation. and is generally a macro oriented champion rather than a lane champion. However I want to know what the OP thinks.
Sorry, didn't mean his output should be the same, just present somewhat similar threats. Totally agree that Singed is about making a mess of things, not training down a single target.
Aptest (EUW)
: > Exacerbated by the fact that Singed doesn’t have a clean classification in LoL. We can’t say he’s failing/succeeding at X because we don’t have a well defined X. He, like I feel like this is a very important point, and I would like to request the OP to elaborate specifically on this. What is singed supposed to be good at? What's his 'power fantasy'? the thing that makes you feel great playing him, and that should be reasonably accessible?
Personally feel like he is and should be an AP bruiser/fighter. Irelia or Renekton strength profile.
: TL;DR; What is Singed's poison coded as? We are still unsure if it is a DOT like Swain or if it is weirdly coded AP minion damage. I know this is a sort of random question but it is still rather important. What is our poison actually coded as? When Singed had the poison changes a while ago and Riot disabled him I remember a comment from a Rioter on /r/Singedmains. She/He told us there was a bug where Singed's poison damage to Baron did not scale with AP because it was coded as "AP minion damage." And they said something about fixing that. But our Q in some situations works like a DOT and other times it does not. For example Singed's Q does not knock Quinn out of ultimate, it slows her like minions do. Yet our poison also works so Cassiopia can cast her E repeatedly. So sorry if I am still a bit confused but I think this is something that should be addressed in a bit more clearly. Every Season I can remember questions about how Singed's poison interacts differently from every other DOT. And thank you for recognizing us. Part of the reason we feel so dejected is because one cannot simply "main Singed." You must offer your life to him. Learning what the new good build is of the week. Constantly theorycrafting. Spending game after game to learn every matchup and to become decent at proxying. Then learning how to goo-flip properly (thank you in S5 for that btw) and things like the Sky auto attack. So when Singed is suffering it feels like we wasted our time on that. Thank you.
It's both an AoE and a DoT.
Xavanic (NA)
: Hey, just a suggestion for a mini rework for singed, since your doing alot of those lately Passive - Now Instead of giving artifical tank stats gives him movement speed whenever he hits a champ (20% for aa's/abilites 5% for Q) Passive - A secondary passive acting similar to kog passive, but while in this state, he gains 15/20/25/30% (+10% ap ratio ) movespeed and deals 100/150/200/250 (+35% of ap) on explosion Q - Now deals 10/17.5/25/32.5/39 + 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2% (+1% per 100 ap)of max hp per second rather then its current value Passively grants restores 2/3/4/5/6% (+.75/.90/1.05/1.2/1.35 per 100 ap) maximum health and mana whenever he aa's a champ (40 sec CD, reduced by 2.5 sec everytime singed hits a champ with an ability) W - Now deals 80/100/120/140/160 (+25% of ap) as impact damage and then slows targets in the zone by 30/40/50/60/70% and deals 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2% (+1% per 100 ap) max hp damage per second (Renamed to Acidic adhesive) E - Pretty much the same as it is now, except deals double damage if they land in his W Ult - Removes all CC on activation and now doubles his movespeed, while in addition doubling his ap and granting him slow resistance, In addition, when not active he passively gains 15/17.5/20% Damage reduction Tell me what you think of that
What would be more valuable is knowing where you think we could take power away.
: > Don't think we ever want to go back to a world where proxy farming/split pushing forever is optimal though. #So you're saying you want to enforce the meta-game by only allowing champions to play against their enemy counterpart _in the lane_, and disable any other viable methods (such as proxy farming) because it goes against the meta or "gameplay philosophy". Gotcha. Have you ever stopped to think singed players enjoy playing singed not only because _it was "exciting" and a different challenge to proxy farm, but because we love the run?_ Every game with every other champ, you're always in lane. Farm, fight, farm, fight. If you're playing juggernauts or fighters/duelists (and who isn't, this season), it's always "fight engage fight engage. ganks!" With singed proxy farming, you get a different style of laning; I would even go so far as to say "relaxing" (it was to me at least). Then sometimes comes the chase, the thrill and rush of being able to outwit and outsmart two or three opponents, laughing maniacally all the while knowing that you're #wastingtheirtime. Now, we can't even do that effectively anymore. Pigeon-holed back into meta-enforced laning phases, where practically _every matchup is a losing matchup_. Yay. How droll and monotonous. Hell, I can beat singed **only using Soraka, zzrot, and banner of command**, and always out pressure him for first turret. #Riot enforcing meta, confirmed here. > Adaptive Helm helps Singed too and the number of champions that get to rush this against him is relatively low. Again, forcing singed into a "tank role" when he is not a tank. He is not fun to play as a tank. He feels horrible when you have to build tank items just to survive the lane. Also, Adaptive Helm is very cost-efficient and can easily be rushed as a second or even first item by many juggernauts and fighters top lane. If I were playing vs a singed in today's patch (note: I've played on average 5 to 10 games _per day_ on this patch so far, and I have not seen a singed player **even once**), I could pick something like {{champion:122}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} etc, rush adaptive helm, _and still do enough damage to either stop singed in his tracks, or outpush him with zzrot and adaptive helm_. > Either way, if you have to build tank to function then you should be tuned accordingly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this implying that because singed players need to build tank to function, that singed should then be balanced _as a tank_....? Because if so, that's really fucked up. Champions should be brought up to the current game's state of play with updates to their core identity; not rehashed and re-classed _because of_ the changes over the season to the game.
As mentioned above, I love/d proxy farming on Singed, but 9 other people in the game don't. I know I'm generalizing here, but it wasn't a play style that anyone other than the Singed player enjoyed. That's not fair for the other players. It's not about enforcing a meta, it's about ensuring the game is enjoyable for everyone.
: I'm sorry you have bad taste in singed gameplay. Proxy farming is fun as hell, maybe its just the appeal to adhd and wanting other champions to be able to spam buttons at you in lane that you find important.
I love/d proxy farming. I also understand why it sucks.
: As one of the few guys who loved pizza feet taric and old yorick, i'd like to thank you for understanding that reworks definitely leave some of us alienated. Could it be reasonable to say that singed is actually a champion who sheds light on something that could be expanded upon? proxy farm champions that is. Mobile singed like champions, baby singeds the idea is simple, take the roaming mechanics from champs like bard or skarner, and incorporate them into indirect combat champs.. or actually maybe just give singed a chime mechanic of his own and a second functionality on his flip after first cast (Idunno a knockback charge with his shield?) like make his poison get filled up with little vials that drop randomly all over the map and also can drop from minions/monsters
Some fun ideas. Don't think we ever want to go back to a world where proxy farming/split pushing forever is optimal though.
hi ace50 (NA)
: Hey man, thanks for taking your time to write a response! I'm personally really surprised that singed's highest ELO winrate is over 50%, with mains like MinishCap who stopped playing. If you don't mind, could we have the % win-rate for last patch for Masters and challengers? Thanks!
Can't share internal data unfortunately. I know that sucks. If you look at champion.gg's "win rate % by games played" widget, that will give you something closer to the numbers we're balancing Singed off of. Plat+ only though.
: The case for Singed love
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I know you’re super passionate about Singed and I appreciate the thoughtful post. Why Buff Singed You’re right in that the majority of people playing Singed are Singed mains. This has been true for nearly all of LoL’s life. Even when he’s been very strong, he’s not a champion that appeals to many, whether due to playstyle or persona (almost certainly both). His mastery path is rather obtuse and skews heavily towards strategy rather than tactics. So we’re left with a bunch of Singed mains with hundreds of games played on Singed only. As with many similar champions, this leads to a low average win rate and high experienced player win rate. This is true of every champion to some degree, but Singed sits on the extreme end of things. Then who do we balance for? Do we balance for the first time player or the 1000th time player? Well, there’s no clean answer unfortunately and it usually gets taken on a case by case basis. For Singed, it’s the experienced player case (Side note, champion.gg data is average win rate). Reason being, as mentioned above, even when Singed is statistically OP he doesn’t draw players. Wouldn’t that make him a good candidate for a visual/gameplay update? Perhaps, but that’s the Champ-Update team and I can’t speak confidently to their prioritization. Sorry for lack of clarity there. I’ll try and grab someone today and see if they can respond here. Singed History I wasn’t on the balance team at the time, but I pushed back quite hard on the removal of tenacity from R. I would have liked to see defensive stats removed instead. My reasoning was that I never want to stop running as Singed. If I need to die, fine, but let me die running. Felt like we were removing more fun than power. That said, I also understand why we removed it. Singed being able to “freely” access the backline was not meant for his power profile. That was the riddle for Singed players to solve, not the inverse where backline has to figure out how to avoid him. Matchups For lane matchups, I agree with most of your assessments. Singed doesn’t have many winning ones and some of his previous ones have been removed. He used to be able to bypass this with proxy farming, but that isn’t as viable as it used to be (for good reason). 3x Dark Seal in laning phase was fun initially because it felt like gaming the system, but now it’s more like you’re forced to just to survive. Singed has a decent level 2 all-in with Ignite, but for the most part his early game is weak. This isn’t bad if it’s made up for elsewhere. We’ll get into that. Midgame Disagree with your midgame assessment. Assuming you aren’t woefully behind, Singed’s midgame is quite powerful. Lategame I think what you’re objecting to is Singed’s current best/most reliable build being driven by deficits. Singed is forced to buy items that shore up his weaknesses rather than enhance his strengths. Rylai’s + Liandry’s (RoA) are natural fits for Singed, but suboptimal due to current state of LoL. This ends up feeling lame as most people weren’t drawn to Singed to be a pick champ. Exacerbated by the fact that Singed doesn’t have a clean classification in LoL. We can’t say he’s failing/succeeding at X because we don’t have a well defined X. He, like Blitzcrank for example, falls into a special category of “they’re weird.” If Singed’s best build were TF > Gunblade, would he be failing? Either way, if you have to build tank to function then you should be tuned accordingly. Tl;dr - I agree that even though Singed’s win rate may be fine, his current best build option isn’t compelling. It’s not why most Singed players want to play Singed Champions “Difficult to learn” doesn’t mean “has a strong late game.” You can have an early game power house with a steep learning curve. That said, because his current early game is so weak he should probably scale better late. Elo I’ve said it before, but Singed’s win rate at all ELOs is healthy. Again, we balance Singed with experienced players in mind. You’re right that his win rate at lower rankings is better, but even at the highest MMR he is over 50%. Items Discussed this in Lategame section. For his passive, we agree. When Singed receives a significant update, this is likely the first place we look. Disruptor Problems I disagree about Singed damage output being too low when building AP. That said, it harkens back to the problem of Singed having to build tank. Adaptive Helm helps Singed too and the number of champions that get to rush this against him is relatively low. Don’t think this is a problem. On that note, early internal data shows Singed’s win rate going up on patch 7.9. Split Pushing Assuming you’re talking about a tank build, so yes. Singed doesn’t get to build Sunfire or Titanic like many other tanks and he scales based on the assumption that he’ll have an AP item or two. Even so, his clear speed is reasonable. Abilities Good suggestions here. Agree that some small scope stuff could go a long way. The problem is that with many of these seemingly easy suggestions, they can’t just be done in a vacuum. We can’t responsible just buff Singed. All of these suggestions are zero-sum, requiring taking power from other parts of the kit, validation, etc. When you look at the value proposition of working on “on fire” champions vs. someone doing relatively well, it’s a tough sell. However, the satisfaction angle is pretty compelling to me... Anyway, again I really appreciate you taking the time to write this. I wish I could say, “Awesome! We’ll make Singed our top priority and fix all these problems next patch!” I can’t do that. What I can do though, is make sure this sentiment is understood on both Live Gameplay (the balance team) and Champion-Update. Hopefully, we can get some work slated soon.
Eedat (NA)
: Not trying to be a dick, but then whats the point? You're never going to come anywhere even remotely close to balancing the mode if you dont address specific champions.
It sucks playing against the really oppressive champions and we realize that. A few of the changes listed here are aimed at addressing those outliers. We're not going to see Sona drop to a 50% win rate from this, but we're confident it will move the needle in the right places.
Eedat (NA)
: Is it possile to buff/nerf champions specifically for the ARAM mode only? I know you guys can make specific changes to champs for TT. Why cant you do it for ARAM?
We used to do this on TT and Dominion, but stopped supporting that a few years ago. No map specific changes exist anymore and as FeralPony mentioned, we won't be doing that in the future either.
: @ManWolfAxeBoss: are you playing Mirage: Arcane Warfare?
Yup, that's me. I'm a big fan of Chivalry and have been playing a ton of Mirage. Really dig it! Current name is "Pearl Hogbash" if you want to add me and play :)
: [Gameplay] Cho'Gath Legendary Skins Ult SFX Bugs
Took a look at this today and everything is working on my end. Do you have a video of it happening? Might help me track it down.
: Talon Bug
Just put in a fix for this. Going to try and do a redeploy for it. Thanks for the report!
Minarde (NA)
: >RE Dedicated Rioter for ARAM: You're right, we could do a better job at owning non-SR experiences. The goals of SR and non-SR modes are inherently different though, so there won't always be a one-to-one Rioter crossover. EG: *there isn't a whole balance team dedicated to just ARAM.* Is there a balance team for "non-SR modes in general" though? ManWolfAxeBoss used to head up the Alternate Maps team (managing TT/Dom/ARAM health and balance), but he's now occupied with work on SR balance. Have Alternate Maps been folded into the Featured Modes umbrella, does a separate Alternate Maps team still exist, or has Riot simply dropped all of it entirely? I'm asking because there's at least two significant issues that haven't been addressed in months. 1. TT still doesn't have BF Sword enabled. NLR was re-enabled with the Mage itemization update that reduced the price of the item, but that didn't happen with BFS and the Marksman itemization update. Essence Reaver in particular has no counterpart on Treeline. 2. ARAM still has no AP vision item. Twin Shadows, Lightbringer, and Hextech Sweeper used to be the trinity of vision item for magic, physical, and tank preferences, respectively. The removal of Twin Shadows left a gap in trap detection options.
Hey man, Thanks for the write-up. I still do some alternate map stuff and am hoping to do an ARAM pass in the next couple months :) But ya, mostly focused on SR now. 1. What are your hopes with bringing BF Sword to TT? We could do that, but since it's just a component item I can't help but assume it's really the full items you're after. You mention Essence Reaver specifically. Any other item gaps that you feel SR has and TT doesn't? For ER, we chose not to include this item because of the MP5 aura on the map. We felt like it was superfluous and ended up just being a trap. Do you think AD, mana-dependent casters (Ez, Lucian, etc.) are in need of this? 2. Should address this in the ARAM pass :)
Davdog (OCE)
: Rumble Bug
Thanks for report. Fixed next patch!
: Rumble OverHeat Bug
Thanks for report. Fixed next patch!
Reklats (NA)
: Rumble Harpoon + Overheat interaction [Gameplay]
: Dominate Dominion—The Final Battle Tournament Registration Now Open!
: How does a stack mechanic make his passive clearer?
It is clearly meant to be used on a single target.
: Urgot PBE changes
Thanks for the long write-up. Agree with most of the stuff here, though I think the optimal play pattern on live of peppering the enemy team to apply your passive is pretty unhealthy. It's very strong, but unclear and unsatisfying. A stack mechanic solves the clarity issue and we haven't seen his power take much of a hit internally. That being said, we're still iterating. W - Numbers are crazy throughout the game. Feel good about these, assuming we go through with the ult changes. R - Agree that the frequency is too rare. We've noticed that enemies are scattering when they see Urgot ult begin, which is functionally what we want it to do, but it's no fun when you don't get the satisfaction of the fear bomb :) Couple ways we could solve this. Increase terrify radius, decrease channel time, add a delay on the fear going off, etc. Going to try a few different things this week...
CppL (EUW)
: If this shit gonna pass pbe?...
So, not only did some stuff get changed, we also found a bug where the AP ratio got doubled to 1.4 on accident... Most of the crazy healing in this video is coming from that. Fixed in tomorrow's build!
L4T3NCY (NA)
: Poro King: Rioters VS NA Players. Friday, Dec 18th @5PM PST.
: Is there any plans or thoughts on changing / addressing Yasuo's double crit passive in the near future? With all these new Crit items he can literally get 100% Crit Chance in a couple of items, which lets him pretty much dominate anyone in a straight skirmish and consistently chunk their health down with a single auto attack.
Yasuo, along with many champs, will likely require some tuning with the preseason changes. He benefited quite a bit both from items and the new masteries. No specifics yet.
Zielmann (NA)
: I noticed in an ARAM last night, that Teemo's mushrooms don't proc Luden's. Was this intentional? I didn't see it listed in the changes anywhere. If so, was it a refactoring of the shrooms and what they will/won't apply? Or was it on the Luden's side? I sorta like the change, actually, cause it means I don't have to worry that I'll lose my Luden's charge if minions walk onto a shroom.
This is a bug. Already fixed :)
: Hello there, I'd just wanted to know if u guys have anything planned for Lissandra. {{champion:127}} Lissandra - Since she was out you guys nerfed her damage howerver always putting more and more utility, but i guess she kinda needs to have her mana costs lowered; or i'd like to suggest an addiction to the passive ,along with the no mana cost spell, she could have like extra damage maybe scaling with level only. Another suggestion would be lowering the E dmg ,since it's mostly used to escape/engage, and put some damage on the other abilities. Thanks for the time!
We very recently put in the change to her ult where she heals on self cast. Spell costs were something we looked at, but didn't feel like she really needed anything there. The passive definitely has the biggest room for improvement. I messed around with some changes where she would spawn black ice around her and gain bonuses if she cast on top of them, but ultimately didn't have time for that patch. Definitely something I'd like to continue work on later though. That being said, we've seen her in a few games at worlds so far and think she's in a decent place in terms of power.
: Ok,I don't have a lot of original questions.So I ask for some simple stuff. {{item:1054}} - On a scale of 1 to 10 what do you think of this item?1 being a "must rework or delete" & 10 being a "must buy 6 of these on every champ". {{champion:75}} - My favorite Dog in League.If he was made today,what would he be like? Crazy ideas - If you could come up with a crazy idea that would completely change league,for better or for worse,what would it be?These ideas could range from stupid ideas that only exist in your head to ideas that maybe be worth considering to.I'll provide an example,add an area past top lane with an epic monster.The idea here is to make top lane a more important part of the map rather than the "island" full of tanks & split-pushers.Plus it would help with the whole "Party down Bot!" TP meta.What are you crazy ideas? {{summoner:4}} - Is it possible for just one patch during preseason to remove Flash temporarily?Just to see how hard things shake up.
{{item:1054}} 9/10 - Situational buy that does its job when it needs to. {{champion:75}} The Cane - If he were made today, I assume he'd be classified as a juggernaut and not have an infinite scaling mechanic. If he does ever get reworked, the late game raid boss fantasy is a must and I'd be sad if stacks got removed, but could live with that I suppose. I love the idea of movement silences. Get to kill Ezreal more. Lesser elixirs (think 75g and your next attack has 100% lifesteal or something). Flash only usable outside of combat. Shrink the entire map by 25%. Lots of neat stuff that would be fun to experiment with. {{summoner:4}} A dream of what may never be... ; ;
: For Dr. Mundo, why not just remove his ults health cost
Wodin (NA)
: Can you talk a little bit about how the team approaches mana and cooldown gating when evaluating a champion's strengths, weaknesses, and play pattern? In particular, I'm curious about cases where the gate is essentially added or removed almost entirely (Eve W 0->40, Braum Q cost fluctuation being two recent examples), and what the thought process is behind making that hard call. In the same vein, how do you value usability changes (e.g. skilshot width/Zyra plant AI) relative to numeric increases in power?
Mana is tricky. It's not a super interesting resource, but has a ton of power connected to it. In Eve's case, we felt like that was just too much power (and really inappreciable). With Braum, he needed some attention overall and Q mp cost was the best place to give some power back. Usability changes, like any numbers change, just happen when appropriate. If we felt like expanding the width of Braum's Q would have been more appropriate than MP cost, we would have gone with that. Usability tend to have higher impact, so we try and make those work when we can.
: I'm interested in what you all speculate will become of Kindred, buff or nerf wise. I heard that for the most part, she seems like she's in a pretty good place. I'm curious to hear a/some rioter(s) personal opinion on it. I personally agree with the team. She is not too strong, and when played right, makes a pretty balanced champ.
They're still pretty new to the Rift and have a fairly steep learning curve, so a slightly lower than average win rate right now is appropriate. I personally feel that they'll be strong once people figure out all their tricks. Just give it some time.
: How do you guys deal with the stress involved with the game? I feel like every time I go to see news about League of Legends on twitter, Reddit, Facebook, or the boards there is ALWAYS some commentary about the game not doing enough in terms of skins, balance, server management, etc. I can easily see how being a part of the balance team (or any team at Riot) can quickly become overwhelming, and I would love to hear how some of you deal with stress involved. I know for a fact that I can deal with stress in a much more safe and constructive manner and I was hoping to see what things you lovely folks do to help manage. Thanks for all your hard work in making an incredibly fun and diverse game! Hope to hear from you all soon!! {{champion:157}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:157}}
As a team, we usually relieve stress by backseat gaming SmashGizmo while he solo queues. As an individual, I try and go to the skatepark at lunch and convince other people to listen to Riff Raff.
: Mundo E does not give bonus damage and auto reset if used while previous E is still active.
: So before I buy the dunk master skin, what are the plans for Darius? He's a really strong pick right now but I was just wondering what kinds of things the team was playing around with balance wise. {{champion:122}}
He just got a nerf in 5.20 so we'll see how that affects him and address as needed.
: 1. Given that balance is such a fickle thing i.e. nerfing one champion or a certain set of champions leading to others climbing to the top spot when they've been kept in check over how many permutations does the balance team go internally before pushing for a certain set of changes? And were there ever any set of changes which weren't pushed precisely because the impact on the state of the game as a whole, not just for the champion who you intended to nerf, would have been undesireable? 2. How exactly do you approach balancing items, especially given that mana of them have certain unique passives whose power isn't as easily quantifiable as raw stats? And what do you make of items which currently I would consider in limbo as they are close to never bought but buffing could make them entirely too strong, such as Ohmwrecker. 3. What do you think of items like Ardent's Censer and Zeke's Harbinger. Can we expect more such items in the future? I admit those two items are some of my favorites because they favor a style of support I can very much get into. The whole idea of being this enchanter/echantress who piles on tons of bonuses on their carry if certain conditions are met appeals to me a lot.
I dig your name. 1. Balance iterations are interesting. There are times when we nail it first try, and times when we playtest 10 different changes and nothing works out. We always have to keep in mind how any change will affect the rest of the game, especially when we have something like Sivir almost single-handedly defining a meta. We went slow and steady with that one. We pull changes pretty regularly, both before and after they've hit PBE. Reasons can be multitude and yes, unhealthy game state changes is one of them. (Though I can't seem to think of a good example at the moment) 2. Another team, Game Systems, handles the vast majority of items, but it's not terribly different from how you approach a champion. Ask yourself what the item does, how, why, etc. Then validate whether it's doing those things in a healthy way. As for "limbo" items, we're hoping to address most, if not all, of them in the 2016 season. 3. I'm with you. I love these items. (I will always play a bard in MMOs if it's available - buff everything always) Ardent Censor can probably use some love, but we're happy with how Zeke's has turned out. I don't know what Game Systems has planned for the future, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more support items pushed in similar directions.
: Heya ! So I have a question. As a Sion Player, I really feel that the champ is really slow, he can tank, but don't you think the nerf on the reactivation on the W was an overnerf ? I really loved to play Sion Jungler or top, now 3 seconds is really, really long. It's really hard to survive in the jungle and the ult is really hard to hit, people just have to sidestep, you can't correct your position, your gank is mostly a fail if your teammates didn't already engaged, which is hard, because you're the one supposed to engage. Also, Renekton. I really think he's the one supposed to make a comeback with the Juggernaut Update. He's strong as a Juggernaut, tanky as a Juggernaut but he have some free sustain with his Q, a really powerfull stun and a very good mobility in the teamfight. Somehow he's definitely stronger than the toplaner Juggernaut. What do you feel about him ? And one last : Why do you keep nerfing Darius and let Garen being insanely strong ? The nerf are only "Placebo" for lowering the banrate ? Dirty Demacian ! And a bonus one. How the banrate/winrate impact your decision in the balance ? There's no way you don't look at those stats when you ask yourself "Is the champ good for the game ?" And a Bonus-Bonus : What do you think about Azir ? :D
{{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:14}} I love {{champion:14}} Sion is actually in a pretty good place. His skills, ult especially, take some time to master, but he's far from weak. Jungle probably isn't his strongest role as he excels with farm and xp, but he can manage there. Renekton is the "You must be this tall to ride the ride" champion of top lane. We don't really classify him as juggernaut, more of a fighter. And if World's is any indication, you're right about him being stronger than juggernauts. Watching him stomp Darius has been fun. All that being said, we are similarly happy with Renekton right now. May change in the future, but he's in a good place. Well, when a champion has a pick/ban rate in the 90th percentile, something is probably wrong heh. Garen can be frustrating to play against with his silence and sky sword, but just like Renekton and Sion, we don't feel like he's too strong or too weak right now. Copying from a question I answered earlier: We have a ton of different metrics that feed into our balance decisions. For example, we look at base win rate across all elo, Plat+ win rates, pro win rates, and experienced player (more than 30 games on a given champion) win rates. Aside from win rate, we look at picks and bans, popularity, player perception, etc. We monitor this stuff from patch to patch, so it's pretty easy to pick up on trends as well as predict them. He is a very handsome pigeon.
Emozgus (NA)
: This post is a bit different than the others being posted, and is going to be a bit long. My questions will be about the Balance Team itself, rather than the champions you balance. Being a part of the Balance Team sounds interesting to me, so I will be providing some background about myself to not only show that I am truly interested, but also to assist in answering some of my questions. In 2014, I graduated from college with a degree in Physics (and a minor in Math). I had decided on that specialization because I had always loved astronomy, and figuring out how the universe works is exhilarating. At the time, it was my goal to continue on to grad school and become an astrophysicist. However, I’m now in my second year of grad school and I no longer feel as though I’m playing with numbers, but working with numbers (a very important distinction), and solving problems is now a relief instead of a joy. As a result, I had to give some thought into exactly why I wanted to become an astrophysicist. I discovered that it wasn’t that I wanted to figure out how everything worked, but that I absolutely love playing with numbers, finding simple ways to solve problems, and sifting through data tables looking for the patterns and information they hide. This led to me searching for potential careers that I could enjoy. I have also been a gamer for as long as I can remember (not an exaggeration), and have played League of Legends for a few years now. One day I was reading some patch notes and realized that figuring who needs to be balanced, as well as what to change in order to balance them, sounded right up my alley. I would be able to play with numbers in a meaningful way that would contribute to a game I enjoy. Questions: 1. Do you think someone with my background would be helpful to your team, or am I missing something important? 2. Along the lines of my first question, how much experience with coding should I have? My coding knowledge is mainly about basic coding logic, rather than knowledge of specific languages. This was learned through one semester of Java, and writing countless (short) Mathematica Notebooks to solve problems. This is definitely something I would be willing to learn more of if needed. 3. How big is the Balance Team? 4. What problems do you tackle? (Both short-term, and long-term) 5. Is there a specific person I should contact about this instead? 6. Is there other information you would like to provide, that I didn’t think to ask? Thank you for taking the time to read my post, as well as answering my questions.
Hey man, I dropped out of grad school to come work at Riot, so it's not too crazy. I wouldn't advise jumping ship without some serious soul searching, but if you're really unhappy and want to pursue game development as a career then go for it. 1. This team, like most here, has a pretty diverse set of backgrounds ranging from no degree to PhD. Lots of different skill sets means we get to approach tasks a variety of ways and ultimately see more well-rounded results. 2. Lots of people, myself included, come in with no coding/scripting knowledge and learn as they go. 3. It changes, but currently we have 9 including production. 4. Short term, we do lots of reactive work patch to patch. We try to get a mix of both too strong and too weak champs. But all that works goes into long term goals like game health and diversity. Long term work is more scarce on this team, but we sometimes create items or do light reworks and such. We have quite a few long term projects in the works right now for season 2016. 5. http://www.riotgames.com/careers 6. Just a small piece of advice. If you want to design, do design. :)
: Why do you guys think Lux hasn't seen any play at worlds so far despite her buffs in patches 5.12 and 5.17?
Someone's secret weapon and they don't want to show their hand yet... Alternatively, popular team compositions right now aren't terribly favorable for Lux, but I wouldn't be surprised if she showed up.
: Hey, thanks for doing this Q and A! I have a few questions I’d like to ask: 1) What stats do you use to decide which champs to re-balance? How do you weigh each of these stats (e.g. winrate could be 3x more important than playrate)? Do you have a quantitative criterion to warn you if a champ is somehow becoming more unbalanced, or is it usually just a feeling from you and/or the community? 2) How are assignments spread across the balance team? Does a small team handle champ x and another small team handle champ y? 3) What are the backgrounds of the people working in the balance team? Bachelors in Math/Physics/Engineering, perhaps even a Ph.D? How do the individuals with these different backgrounds tend to contribute to the process? 4) What other teams do the balance team collaborate with in order to gain additional insights into a champion design? For example, do you work with Lyte and Co. to understand how changes affect the toxicity of those who main a champ? Thanks for taking the time to read my questions! There are just so many interesting statistics in League at your disposal that I can’t help but wonder about these things.
Hey dude, 1. We have a ton of different metrics that feed into our balance decisions. For example, we look at base win rate across all elo, Plat+ win rates, pro win rates, and experienced player (more than 30 games on a given champion) win rates. Aside from win rate, we look at picks and bans, popularity, player perception, etc. We monitor this stuff from patch to patch, so it's pretty easy to pick up on trends as well as predict them. 2. We get together for each sprint (basically our tasks per patch) to both pick tasks and assign them. We use a healthy mix of data and intuition to select our projects and then assign them pretty organically (whoever wants it, takes it - though we tend to have people who "own" various champions because they have more experience with them than anyone else) 3. Like most of Riot, and really game development in general, we're pretty diverse. We have people with no college education up through PhD's. It creates a really unique design atmosphere because everyone sees things in a different way. Some people are very good about thinking in systems, others better in numbers or thematics. It's a lot of fun. 4. We work with pretty much everyone in "core" LoL, Champion, Champion Update, Game Systems, and so forth. It's super important to understand not only what everyone is working on, but also why. Cross-team alignment can be tricky, but it's a must for game health and balance.
: You forgot {{champion:99}}
Every time you right click...
: Twisted Treeline Fog....
Definitely a bug @_@ but it does look kinda cool Pretty sure your Fog just completely failed to load. The blue is all missing textures (restart fixes it normally).
: Twisted Treeline: Riot VS Community - Friday 19th (3PM PST) ~ How to join and Info
Retillin (NA)
: So then you agree that the first tower doesn't encourage people to play an adc?
The first tier towers in a vacuum, yes I agree. The package as a whole, no I disagree.
Retillin (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ManWolfAxeBoss,realm=NA,application-id=LFfTlAky,discussion-id=9Oa8vMEf,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-06-11T00:33:56.468+0000) > > 3. Encourage/Empower ADCs on a map that they traditionally haven't been terribly valued on (at least outside of competitive levels) > Wait, what? This seems very wrong. If a tower is EASY to kill, you no longer need an adc to do it. So you devalue the role even more. This is 100% backwards.
Well, you have to take all the other tower, Vilemaw, minion, item changes into account. The first tier turret was just one piece of a much larger whole. Also, it was a sub-goal. Thus the #3 on the list.
: About the new TT
Thanks for the feedback guys. Death timers are super fickle. Very difficult to tune without thousands of games worth of data. That being said, they are actually shorter early game (6 seconds shorter at level 1), 0.5 seconds higher at level 6, the same at level 11, and slightly higher late game (4 seconds higher at level 18). The interval in which the game adds additional time to death timers was also changed to 30 seconds rather than one minute, but still scales at the same percentage (nothing really change, just smoother). So all in all, I think the outcome of that ace would have been the same pre-5.11. However, I will definitely be monitoring that stuff as it is really touchy. In regards to the first tier turret, it is intentionally weak. It has all around lower stats, including attack range and vision. This was done for a number of reasons: 1. Encourage more objective-focused gameplay 2. Smooth out early game goals 3. Encourage/Empower ADCs on a map that they traditionally haven't been terribly valued on (at least outside of competitive levels) We are very conscious of the concern that games may go too long, but we hope that Vilemaw will help teams close out. Much like death timers, game length is also very difficult to fully understand without tons of data. Same sentiment here though, we're keeping close watch and will adjust as needed.
: I might go back to my home map, the TT. I feel sad because of a lot of things like Lightbringer removal, Madred's, the new trinket destroying invis champs, ability to get vilemaw to get combat advantage, fear of empowering ADCs with these changes. But it fixes the jungle so the duo lane meta can die in a hole for all I care, so I'm overall happier.
One of our goals WAS to empower ADCs :)
Frius (EUNE)
: no essence reaver on 3v3 /dominion
Both of those maps have mana regen auras built into them simply making Mp5 items less valuable. We don't feel like Essence Reaver really brings anything to these maps the way it does on SR either. Is there something about Essence Reaver in particular that you find appealing? Or perhaps a gap in TT/CS itemization that you think might be filled through other means?
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MANWOLFAXEBOSS

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