DalekZec (EUNE)
: What champion would be good with the new Klepto?
Neither Aftershock nor Guardian are included, and the RNG prevents you from picking the same rune too often, so it's not as random as one would imagine. Interestingly, Kayle should be able to pick it up just fine, though it'd be a far cry to say it's going to be the optimal choice.
ezelsior (EUW)
: You are talking about Aftershock bud, anyone can proc grasp, still think the change is bad though, agree with you on that,
Oh, thanks for the heads up! EDIT: Oh fuck, now the question is pointless. Seems like I need some reading skills
: Preseason: Rise of the Elements on PBE!
To be honest these Klepto changes sound quite convoluted, though they might feel more intuitive when actually playing the game. ~~Another worry I have is what happens you get a keystone you can't proc, notably Grasp of the Undying for champions without hard CC~~
: Morgana and Kayle Color Stories
Eh, it's nice to see how they are perceived in Demacia and how their influence is felt centuries later, but it doesn't really solve the problem the bios have. Morgana still is shown as rather moderate in her beliefs and isn't given any real flaw, so the imbalance of portrayals is still there. Also, although I do like the poem format, I feel it should use a more solemn style. It doesn't really read like a hidden exemplar of a poem about an epic tale as old as the kingdom.
: WoW's problems are less about moral greyness and more so about the fact that it's trying to be grey but failing. I'm actually logged on WoW (idle in Stormwind I know but bear with me) and do enjoy WoW's story. Sylvanas is meant to be a morally grey character who does wicked actions to ensure the survival of her people but frankly, it makes no sense. While Genn has some hatred with her, Anduin is more than reasonable enough and has only campaigned for peace his entire life. He saved GARROSH, a man who did international war crimes to both factions, because he saw some small light of good in him. Sylvanas thinking Anduin will suddenly turn to violence would go against every single fiber of character development and history he's had for years. What we're instead left with is a story professing about how both sides do evil actions when the Horde has been mostly proactive and the Alliance reactive. We have a war that makes literally no sense because the two sides just got off of a campaign against an armada of demons from space hell and the entire world is hurting and puking up gold blood that's actually super oil. This is a conflict that could be solved in a single letter. Instead we're on the path yet again of a warchief acting out of hatred for the enemy so much that they end up turning their own faction against them while everyone is scratching their heads as to why.
I'd argue that Riot is failling at making their character morally gray pretty hard too. Demacia was supposed to move to a grayer spot with good and bad sides, but they've hit the "Mages are oppressed!" key so freaking often that it's starting to read like some poorly planned metaphor for Nazi Germany. The Angels were supposed to have opposite ideals presented in a completely balanced binary way. Now every single reasonable human being who reads their bios necessarily thinks "Yeah, Kayle's a crazy bitch".
: Darth Vader is unquestionably the villain for much of the story, but he's not the evil mastermind he was originally shown as. He did some utterly abhorrent things, for selfish and spiteful reasons... and yet, he is considered redeemed "in the eyes of the Force" or whatever, by the end. It's far safer to assign the terms "hero/villain" or "protagonist/antagonist" to stories. We are building stories here, not moral judgements designed to tell people how to live their lives, in the real world. Basically, if ANY character wakes up in the morning and thinks "What's the most evil thing I can do today?" then that's a hard pass from me, friends.
Sometimes simplicity is good. Look at {{champion:201}}, for example. He's 100%, without a single hint of doubt, good. And he's good for no particular reason - there's no complicated character arc that made him into the Good Guy he is. He's just good. His lore works still looks beautifully well an he's one of the most beloved champions in League of Legends. Making his story any "grayer" or more complicated would actively hurt his character. If that extreme level of simplicity works for heroes, why couldn't it work for villains?
Rioter Comments
: "Riot is becoming too disney" Riot: "Okay, have this gruesome Freljord story. :) "
Malicious, can you please tell me there's more Kayle lore on the way? If today's bios is all there is then they dropped the ball super hard and just made Kayle cartoonishly evil. But it's weird that there's no color story at all, and that they revealed their kits but not their VOs. That's it, I choose to believe they're pulling a Viktor on us.
: You're suggesting that everyone agrees with you, which data shows us is not true. Even this argument is relative. What you, in EUW, consider "good" might not be what other players/cultures in other real-world regions consider "good"... and vice versa. We're aiming to create a globally resonant fantasy setting.
Waitwaitwaitwaitwait, what kind of data could you possible have that suggests OP's interpretation of the Angels lore is in the minority? It's been out for less than a day, and nearly all of the reactions shown on any forums were that Kayle in undoubtedly in the wrong - no relative "good" and "evil" whatsoever. Now, if you're talking about overall reception of the lore I can concede people may like it more than the Boards show, but that's besides the point: if people say "Woah, Demacia's a bunch of assholes, cool!" or "Woah, Demacia's a bunch of assholes, fuck off Riot!", the main takeaway is still that Demacia is a bunch of assholes. If you guys are striving for relative, grayer moralities, that's very clearly a failure, regardless of people liking it. EDIT: Okay, forget it, you're just baiting us. There's more Angels lore coming and Kayle will be fine. I see through your trickery, Loremaster!
: Because "good" and "evil" are relative, and we're not trying to create those kinds of 2-dimensional tropes anymore.
Okay, can you please tell me there's more lore on the way, pretty please?? The lore you guys released today make Kayle very unquestionably the evil one, and it just breaks my heart to see my girl portrayed like that. I think one of the things that bothers me is that not only does Kayle never act reasonably in their bios but also Morgana doesn't do a single even remotely bad thing in either PoV. If there's to be balance between their ideals, (which I think there should), both sisters have to have solid redeeming qualities *and* fuck up hard somewhere, but Kayle got the short end of the stick.
: Everyone suddenly "loves" the old Kayle, meanwhile she is one of the top 4 least played champions.
Okay, actual Kayle main here - over 400k mastery and 5 years of loving her (still Silver II LUL) The full-plate was was, indeed, quintessential to Old Kayle. But that's not only because of her practical, gets-shit-done personality thta would naturally make her choose to wear that. One thing a lot of people seem to not understand is that the Kayle in Live right now is an angel, yes, but she's more than that. She's Kayle, *The Judicator*. As such, she's supposed to be the embodiment of a concept, a higher being above mortal struggles and indifferent to human emotions who exists solely to deliver Justice. The armor serves that, it makes it so no one can relate to her. The helmet doesn't just protect her face - it makes you unsure if there's even a face under it. Kayle's new model completely defeats that. We can clearly see she's made of flesh and bones, so everyone's sure there's at least one thing in which she's just like us. Kayle's light armor makes her woefully mortal - and that kills the purpose of Kayle, the Judicator. That got a lot of people - me included- very righteously mad. But Kayle, the Righteous is not Kayle, the Judicator. She's born human and chooses to follow her mother's duty. But she fails, and has to perfect herself so she's worthy of her position. The new visual shows that. It portrays a higher being,, sure, but on made of human essence. It's a design made for Kayle, the Righteous. That's not to say the whole thing is perfect: the breastplate still look *way* too much like cloth and her hair is just ugly. But given her new character, Kayle's model does make sense.
: Gotta say: Not a fan of Kayle's new look.
I think one of the things people don't quite value as much is how much this design makes Kayle look *human*, when that's not the point of her character (or rather of her character's visuals). Kayle has always been The Judicator, a pure embodiment of a concept that strikes Justice on the wicked and is above petty human struggles. She's not someone you *relate* to, she's someone you *look up* to. Of course, that is not to say she doesn't have struggles of her own, but those should always be well concealed under her armor, not expose to the whole world to see. But now not only is she clearly a woman, but she's clearly... physical. You can see a body of flesh and bones, so you can expect to just beat her. You can take a weapon and hit it where it hurts. This level of vulnerability was completely unthinkable in old Kayle, and that's what breaks the design to me.
: > [{quoted}](name=dracocrash,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NeYV5qpo,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T22:03:39.836+0000) > > Theres nothing wrong with being afraid of change, not all change is good. Most change is good, especially when it's replacing outdated things. > > Ye,ye,ye kayles kit is not "perfect" but its a simple and unique kit. There are people who like it, and continue to play her. Maybe majority of the community doesn't, but that 0.50% player base also matters. Her kit is vaguely unique, but it's mostly a hodgepodge of random, generic skills crammed together around her gimmicky E. Of course there are people who like it, some people will grow attached to anything - however, even if there is a microscopic playerbase who loves something outdated, that shouldn't stop progress. Sure, that playerbase will get upset - but that's something they should deal with when they know they're playing an antiquated champion. Plus, they're such a small playerbase that they're an extreme, and it helps a champion more when they can be modernized to appeal to a wider audience than to remain an obsolete antiquity and appeal to like 50 people tops. > > Most of these complete overhauls result in complete loss of identity from their old selves (see -> Aatrox/galio/sion) So, why cant these complete overhauls just be released as new champs? I disagree heavily with this statement. Aatrox is still a fighter top lane - his old kit was generic, while his new kit has some functions that make him unique. He still looks the same, and even though he's not auto-attack based, he's no longer just a forgettable fighter. Galio, likewise, is no longer forgettable, and he does well to merge the bits of mage he has with the capability to tank, where old Galio was just an incompatible mess who was hardly picked for anything other than flash-ult gimmicks. And then Sion. I don't know why people consider old Sion some kind of paragon of good game design. He was not. He was dull, uninteractive, and thrived on nothing but stun gimmicks. Hell, all three of these champions, and Kayle, were poorly designed to the point where they're generic and their kits were nothing but tack-ons for a way to bring a specific ultimate into the game. This is why they all had to be updated, so they COULD have their own identity that wasn't a one button gimmick.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NeYV5qpo,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T22:17:25.133+0000) > > Most change is good, especially when it's replacing outdated things. > > Her kit is vaguely unique, but it's mostly a hodgepodge of random, generic skills crammed together around her gimmicky E. Of course there are people who like it, some people will grow attached to anything - however, even if there is a microscopic playerbase who loves something outdated, that shouldn't stop progress. Sure, that playerbase will get upset - but that's something they should deal with when they know they're playing an antiquated champion. Plus, they're such a small playerbase that they're an extreme, and it helps a champion more when they can be modernized to appeal to a wider audience than to remain an obsolete antiquity and appeal to like 50 people tops. I agree that all these reworks were for the better, but you can't just call everything you don't like "gimmicky". Kayle's E is the very base of her playstyle, and a huge part of what distinguishes her from other champions - the other abilities serve to support and enhance that playstyle. If we're going to disregard all that, then we should also call Sylas a "hodgepope of random, generic skills crammed together around his gimmicky R." Also, niche doesn't equal bad, otherwise Ivern and ASol should've been reworked ages ago. Of course, champions like Kayle and Aatrox had outdated kits that failed to really deliver on their fantasies, and that's why they were chosen for a VGU, but being unpopular doesn't mean it's bad.
: > [{quoted}](name=DerMangoJoghurt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlouwJyU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T18:44:26.292+0000) > > I think he's thinking of something like being able to buffer a QW combo or similar changes, nothing major like you proposed. The ultimate and W are for sure being changed. This was confirmed by a few different Rioters after her VGU was announced. In any case, besides these things, everything I mentioned could be added without much hassle. It’s more or less an Ezreal scale update and should be treated as such.
The thing is the Ezreal scale update is completely finished by now. The suggestions he's asking for in the tweet are really only polish/QoL changes that can be done changing the skills scripts a little bit.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mafros,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TdaRmnqw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-28T02:15:07.990+0000) > > What? Chinese New Year, April Fools, Harrowing, Snowdown and Star Guardian are all cuter, light-hearted events - even K/DA and Odyssey are very much on the upbeat side of things. The "serious" events we usually get are PROJECT:, Dark Star, Blood Moon and, you guessed it, Vs. There's no shortage of "happier" skin lines. > > Besides, what leaves a bad taste isn't making a funnier event as taking Vs. away for that. If Riot wanted to do a Dogs and Cats skin line, that's okay. I still think it's a shitty idea, but just use April Fools or some other time for it and it's all fine. The Vs. event already had a theme and a visual identity established, and taking that away for something completely unrelated is just shitting on the entire concept. "Harrowing ... are all cuter, light-hearted events" Nice meme. Next you'd be telling me that The Exorcist (1973) was a comedy movie!
Ok, seems I wasn't clear there. I meant the skins released for Halloween are pretty light-hearted most of the years, including the last one.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mafros,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TdaRmnqw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-28T02:15:07.990+0000) > > What? Chinese New Year, April Fools, Harrowing, Snowdown and Star Guardian are all cuter, light-hearted events - even K/DA and Odyssey are very much on the upbeat side of things. The "serious" events we usually get are PROJECT:, Dark Star, Blood Moon and, you guessed it, Vs. There's no shortage of "happier" skin lines. > > Besides, what leaves a bad taste isn't making a funnier event as taking Vs. away for that. If Riot wanted to do a Dogs and Cats skin line, that's okay. I still think it's a shitty idea, but just use April Fools or some other time for it and it's all fine. The Vs. event already had a theme and a visual identity established, and taking that away for something completely unrelated is just shitting on the entire concept. Did you just call the harrowing light hearted? Do you know the lore behind the harrowing? It's kind of horrifying but like ok. Chinese is normal, not cute or light hearted. I can agree with the Snowdown being light hearted. I think you're trying to imply everything that isn't edgey is light hearted... which isn't correct in my opinion. Also I'm talking specifically about VS events here. I don't know why you're talking about all skin lines in general. All of the VS events have been edge lord stuff. So like weird flex but ok go off.
I do know the lore behind the Harrowing, thank you very much. The event, however, is still light-hearted. Just take a look at the skins released for it: * Mundo Mundo * Pumpkinheadks Fiddlesticks * Kitty Cat Katarina * Lollipoppy * Zombie Ryze * Vladimir Nosferatu * Annie FrankenTibbers * Definitely Not Blitzcrank * Bewitching Nidalee * Haunting Nocturne * Zombie Brand * Headmistress Fiora * Pirate Ryze * Officer Vi * **Haunted Zyra** * **Ravenborn LeBlanc** * **Underworld Wukong** * **Reaper Soraka ** * Zombie Nunu & Willump * Slayer Jinx * Slayer Pantheon * Bewitching Morgana * Little Devil Teemo * Bewitching Tristana * **Death Sworn Katarina** * **Death Sworn Viktor** * **Death Sworn Zed** * Trick or Treat Ekko * Bewitching Janna * Count Kledula All of those skins, only the ones in bold are edgy, all the other being champions dressed as going for a Halloween party. > Also I'm talking specifically about VS events here. I don't know why you're talking about all skin lines in general. I talked about skin lines because you implied there's such a grave shortage of happy skins and that Riot only pumps out extremely serious edgelord skins, which clearly isn't the case. >I don't know why you're talking about all skin lines in general. All of the VS events have been edge lord stuff. So like weird flex but ok go off. *That's exactly what I'm talking about.* Vs. is all-around edgy, so you don't steal that to make cats vs. dog, that's not what the event means. It would be like taking Star Guardians and making a skin line about all the Star Guardians that got killed or terribly scarred and traumatized to the point of insanity because of the all the fighting with the Void. That would be stupid, because you're just breaking the identity of the line, so the same applies to Vs. Versus is edgy, *so keep it edgy.*
: New VS event hate
What? Chinese New Year, April Fools, Harrowing, Snowdown and Star Guardian are all cuter, light-hearted events - even K/DA and Odyssey are very much on the upbeat side of things. The "serious" events we usually get are PROJECT:, Dark Star, Blood Moon and, you guessed it, Vs. There's no shortage of "happier" skin lines. Besides, what leaves a bad taste isn't making a funnier event as taking Vs. away for that. If Riot wanted to do a Dogs and Cats skin line, that's okay. I still think it's a shitty idea, but just use April Fools or some other time for it and it's all fine. The Vs. event already had a theme and a visual identity established, and taking that away for something completely unrelated is just shitting on the entire concept.
Febos (EUW)
: Luxanna is a good vector for more demacian lore. It seems like not everyone in Demacia is anti-magic or, at the very least, tolerate it, since some elitist groups use it. She has a feet in both worlds: the Crownguard family and the Illuminators cult - the latter knows of her powers. Kayle and Morgana reworks might bring some twists to demacian lore too. They're still affiliated with them in the [Map of Runeterra](https://map.leagueoflegends.com/en_US) so chances are they'll play a big part in its lore. All in all I don't disagree with you. Demacia needs more stuff going on than just "Anti-magic". Sylas, albeit a good step forward, is still playing into that narrative. I hope Demacia gets the same love Noxus got.
Lux is the *worst* vector for demacian lore, imo. She's at the very epicenter of the magic conflict in Demacia, so anything that even remotely includes her becomes warped by her struggle to live in and to serve a country so heavily anti-magic. Building a lore progression wouldn't help much either because it would either reinforce Demacia's cartoonishly evil bigotry or do a 180º and make the lore of Sylas, Garen, Shyvana and others so far pretty much meaningless. We need to sheer away from that theme a bit to take a look at Demacia from other angles. I'd say the best option to showcase Demacia's lighter tones is Xin Zhao. A former Noxian prisoner rescued by the Demacians who, by virtue of his strenght, honor and loyalty, found himself a place besides the very prince. And no magic involved at all. That can work.
: I'm hoping we get a {{champion:80}} VGU this year, but only time will tell. Aside from Kayle and Morgana, {{champion:5}} {{champion:236}} and {{champion:37}} still need updated bios. More than likely, I expect the magic discrimination to play some role in Kayle and Morgana's lore.
> More than likely, I expect the magic discrimination to play some role in Kayle and Morgana's lore. Please god, no. If I ever see a little mage girl being captured by the evil evil Mageseekers again, I swear I'll find a way to make Runeterra real just so I can punch her in the face.
: > [{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rZVpka8y,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-25T15:29:16.496+0000) > > I’m pretty sure I know the answer to this. But I’ve asked it for every other Demacia update so might as well continue the tradition. > > Does it focus on the mage problem? Yes, but from the perspective of a pretty typical soldier from the seventh battalion, and her unit. Takes a slightly different angle on the thing.
This motif is getting very tired by now. Demacia hates mages, *we get it.* The problem is there's not a single reason to root for Demacia right now. As much as you guys talked about making the factions more morally gray, the Kingdom seems to exist with the sole purpose of hunting down mages in the most cruel and unfair way possible. For Christ's sake, between Flesh and Stone, Demacian Heart and now Turmoil, this is the third time in a row you guys talk about a sweet little girl being draconically punished for a magic she can't control. Another point where the Demacian lore has fallen flat so flar is in the rare occasion it tries to portray it in a good light: with the exception of Poppy, all of them are really just exceptions to the demacian rule of prejudice, and that only further strengthens said rule. Case in point, the three biggest "good guys" in Demacia are Lux - which is obviously counterproductive-, Galio - when he, a literal anti-mage staute, shows more tolerance than 95% of Demacia by befriending a mage- , and Jarvan IV - who gets his "good guy" points by letting a magical being into his court. That needs to stop. However, I also want to stress that showing mages as the dangerous, volatile individuals they are doesn't help it either - the entire lore would still revolve about the demacian hatred of magic, and, therefore, monotone. The only thing I'm asking you guys what Demacia is when magic is not in the equation, it can't be that hard.

Mafros

Level 9 (NA)
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