Rioter Comments
: Because "good" and "evil" are relative, and we're not trying to create those kinds of 2-dimensional tropes anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=Scathlocke,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=sHGIBEhv,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2019-02-19T19:59:54.984+0000) > > Because "good" and "evil" are relative, and we're not trying to create those kinds of 2-dimensional tropes anymore. So instead of having Kayle be a character who sacrificed for her people, even her own individuality, in an attempt to keep her people safe resulting in her becoming at war with her sister, you instead have her be a 2 dimensional zealous nut case who seeks to purges an entire village because they got pissed a guy was killed. Oh and Morgana goes from being a character who rejects safety if it comes at the expense of individuality and freedom, even if she pursues it via dark means, to being a compassionate misunderstood reformer. Congrats in your attempt to "not create 2-dimensional tropes" you removed all substance from these two and made them 2-dimensional tropes. Take a bow. It is truly rare to see someone literally pull off the exact opposite of what they set out to do. It would be like Michelangelo setting out to pain the Sistine Chapel and instead stripping it down to the bare stone.
: Hard disagree. He was the original villain. He was the ultimate evil guy. Then his story developed over two sequel movies, where he ultimately tried to atone for what he had done. Then loads more stories built out the depth. Then the prequels, etc etc. So. Was Darth Vader good or evil? Discuss.
> [{quoted}](name=Scathlocke,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0IEctYqf,comment-id=00010003000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-19T20:43:14.531+0000) > > Hard disagree. > > He was the original villain. He was the ultimate evil guy. Then his story developed over two sequel movies, where he ultimately tried to atone for what he had done. Then loads more stories built out the depth. Then the prequels, etc etc. > > So. Was Darth Vader good or evil? > > Discuss. /facepalm If you had actually read any of the extended universe you would realize it set up Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker as two distinct personalities. Vader was his Darkside, the side that was filled with anger and hate mostly for himself and for Anakin who failed to protect Padme. Anakin by contrast was his light side that became dormant for years due to the belief he had lost everything, his kids/wife/etc and only began to resurface when he realized Luke was his son. That is actually one of the worst examples as the extended universe made it very clear Vader was a very evil being who did very evil things and Anakin was what was good, hell they even had scenes in which Anakin and Vader fought on mustafar with Vader winning the fight in the end. It was a scene showing was Vader saw as he meditated at his fortress of mustafar. That internal struggle between the two has literally become the entire basis of that character.
: Pyke will be riots biggest regret
Pyke is a mistake and will be a huge headache for Riot but to say he's going to kill the game, or that the game is on it's last legs it just silly.
: do you want the MMR of normal games and ranked to be tied together or what's going on here?
Tied exactly together no, but it should definitely have a fail safe to ensure there isn't a massive discrepancy within the game like the one I posted.
Aptest (EUW)
: To elaborate on Sekai's words, Normals use the same system that ranked uses, for placing players into teams. however unlike in ranked where the matchmaker tries to match player skill (and role selection) tightly, in normals the emphasis is to get the game started and have everybody able to play together. This kind of matchmaking is the problem that is inherent to how normals does things. It's not an inherently flawed system, it is just geared towards making sure people can queue together across divisions and getting games launched fast. If you want tight matchmaking around your MMR? go ranked.
I did not ask for ranks "tight" matchmaking as you called it I pointed out that there should never be a case in which literally the highest level players in this game outside of the pro scene get thrown into matches with people who are not even ranked. People want to act like this is some extreme expectation to have when you attempt to find a normal game, it isn't.
: Are you under the impression a riot employee oversees every match making in the game? You don't have to agree with 'reasons' (Not excuses, in case you didn't know they are different) for them to be justified, it's frustrating, not broken. Coding this also is more than a few lines, it's edits across many many lines of the current code to implement.
Apparently someone does not know what coding is, and it would be extremely simple to write a few lines of coding that will check for specific criteria and if said criteria is met refuse to match two teams together, literally in my coding class it was something we did in like the first week. First line checks the rank of the teams, if there is to much of a discrepancy of the ranks the teams are unable to matched together, extremely basis and very simple actually. And yes they are excuses, not reasons.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YAwfffeu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-30T04:22:06.634+0000) > > The excuses for why it happens are irrelevant next to the fact that it **_SHOULD NOT HAPPEN_** and this is a very easy thing to prevent. There is zero justification for this happening EVER. Explain how it is "easy to prevent"? The easiest solution is probably to sync the MMR between the modes. But syncing one's Ranked MMR with Normal MMR will break the MMR system, whether it's only 1-way or 2-ways. This is also not counting the fact high elos may simply end up having no matches to be played (why would a high elo player who has barely played Normal suddenly be playing Normal? One of the possible reason is that they have no matches in Ranked and so they go to Norms), as well as that it also threatens many Rankers' routine of using Norms as a testing ground given a change like that would make Normal as competitive as Ranked for them. Once more, I'm pretty sure it sucks big balls when shit happens, but still understand the fact Normal ultimately does not count towards anything.
Yes because Master players are going to get such great testing going up against unranked and gold players, that is not an argument or justification it's a joke. It's simple you do in fact look at the ranked of those playing and when you see a team that contains multiple masters in it you don't put them against a team with multiple unranked opponents. This is not complicated and the coding for it can be done with literally a few lines, if that. You don't have to perfectly match ranks but you absolutely should prevent such a disparity at this from ever happening.
SEKAI (OCE)
: I mean, it's a Normal match, which uses a separate and hidden MMR than Ranked's. It's very easy for this match to happen especially if the said high elo barely if ever plays Normal. Sure it sucks (I mean, fuck, I had been stuck in a Normal match as a Silver 5 where 9 other places were all Plat+, making me the sole reason why we lost and it obviously doesn't feel good at all), but then again, it's Norms; shit happens because of the reasons elaborated above, and also that it ultimately doesn't count towards anything anyway so while it may or may not be frustrating but understand that it in the end has no effect.
> [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YAwfffeu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-30T04:19:36.774+0000) > > I mean, it's a Normal match, which uses a separate and hidden MMR than Ranked's. It's very easy for this match to happen especially if the said high elo barely if ever plays Normal. > > Sure it sucks (I mean, fuck, I had been stuck in a Normal match as a Silver 5 where 9 other places were all Plat+, making me the sole reason why we lost and it obviously doesn't feel good at all), but then again, it's Norms; shit happens because of the reasons elaborated above, and also that it doesn't count towards anything anyway. The excuses for why it happens are irrelevant next to the fact that it **_SHOULD NOT HAPPEN_** and this is a very easy thing to prevent. There is zero justification for this happening EVER.
Rioter Comments
: ashe players....
So only saw 2 games with Ashe in it, well of all of them that I am willing to look through them, in one of them Ashe has zero peel against a Xayah/Leona bot lane, which will lock her down and rip her to shreds, and a Warwick jungler which can easily gank both of them as well. So yeah she gets shit on when she has zero peel facing a lane and jungle trio that can easily get on her and destroy her. The other game she had a blitz support, which isn't horrible but isn't great for her either, against an MF/Vayne combo with a Vi jungle, so again she has no real peel against a Vi ultimate on her face mean while MF is channeling her ult ad Vayne just tumbles in to AA her down while out scaling her. In that situation yeah she gets destroyed. Now give her a competent Janna/Morgana in either of those two games and she doesn't die to Leona/Warick engages or Vi ganks either and she can actually get some farm and play her game. Sure they might not be the most meta champs but they work much better with Ashe and are far better picks against those teams. That or you could just do the classic Zyra/Ashe poke lane in bot while having amazing team fighting utility, although it would of been pretty hard for that combo to carry the 1/7 Vi, 2/3 Riven and 2/2 AP Ez.
Hibeki (NA)
: My dude you cant force a kill where people's brains arent present. Youre telling me youve never ganked and the laner just didn't respond at all?
Having bad teammates happens, but your stance is you had nothing you could do when you very clearly did. Ganks don't have to result in kills to be successful, they don't have to be engaged by the laner depending on which jungler you are, say a Zac can easily gank without the laner landing something first for example. Considering you have never stated who you where jungling, never really stated what the laning match-ups are, and simply wanted to rage at a bad game and act like you where some helpless victim held hostage by your team with zero agency at all, simply put this is a fallacy that is often created and spat out by people who think of this game in such a linear way.
Hibeki (NA)
: Not all of them push to the turret though, it's only top. I go for top dive? He doesnt respond. Go for the jungle? Mid comes to help, but because our mid is a beta pushover, they dont respond and still lose out on farm. Same for the botside
So what you are telling me is that top lane wasn't very gankable, but your mid laner and bot laner where sitting under their turrets while their laning opponents bullied them and you couldn't get a gank out of that. Your story is falling apart more and more.
Hibeki (NA)
: Nothing like being a jungler and seeing all 3 lanes are ungankable
So if your allies have pushed in all their lanes to turret that is literally the perfect time for you to counter jungle, provided you know what you are doing. If the enemies are all under turret and you counter jungle while paying attention it doesn't matter if your laners respond you should still be able to get in, get vision, possibly even a camp and get out. Prioritize vision, get out as soon as the enemy laners start to leave their lanes and all that will happen is the enemy team falls farther behind losing CS to their tower while chasing you and now your team has vision of the enemy jungler to protect them while they are pushing. The whole "my laners push the enemy to turret but the enemy team still responds to my invading" just screams you are exaggerating.
dragonekM (EUNE)
: Akali Should be nerfed.
This is what happens when Riot decides stealth should have zero counter play. You can add Vayne/Kha to that list as well of champions who's stealth is very toxic with no real answer to it.
: Akali no fucking counterplay
No the only thing they really need to do to Akali, and Vayne and Kha and all champs that have hard stealth, is give us some way of seeing them in their steal. Not the stupid sweeper red image you can't target and they still remain stealthed during but something that actually breaks them out of stealth and allows your team to see them. Right now the only thing that really does that in the game, that I am aware of, is Morgana's ultimate. Riot decided they didn't want people to counter their stealths but in doing so they left literally zero counter play to their stealth and the impacts have been nothing but toxic.
: So here's a really weird, possibly too-complicated concept for Sona: Make her a combo champion. Beware that what is below is _extremely_ conceptual, with no actual details at all. Make it sort of like improv music. You know your options, you know where you can go from what, but how will you get there? What order will things go in? You don't plan it all out ahead of time, but do it as you go with a full knowledge of what your options are, what "direction" you can go, and what might affect your decisions. You can't just panic and change from a gentle bit to OH GOSH RENGAR IS EATING MY FACE HEAL STUN SPEED UP RUUUUN. If you know what you're doing, you can do things that might _sound_ like that, but it has to be planned ahead of time. Imagine a slow fade-away that creates anticipation before a louder bit. Imagine a moment where all the sound drops away right before the drop. You can't just do that out of nowhere - you have to plan for it! Imagine picking what key you play in, knowing what chords and notes you can play within that key and having some idea of how to do key shifts into and out of it. Imagine following the beat, a set pace, knowing how to speed it up or slow it down but also not being able to do so immediately. Yes, this is all ludicrously complicated, but it's about getting you into the mindset of a character design. Instead of traditional abilities, imagine three "notes"/"chords" (QWE) and a modifier button (R) to change meta-level things. Each "spell" would be a combination of notes in a given state. R would let you change this state, whatever you want to call it, not necessarily across a binary, but scrolling through a list, or with the ability to shift into a different set of states based on the one you're currently in (so if you're in CM, you could press R-R to shift to Am, R-Q to shift to Cm, R-W to shift to something else, R-E to shift to something else, details don't matter right now). Probably limit the number of states so it's not actually as complicated as music, and name it things that won't freak people out, but it's the same concept. You'd probably want to overlap things so you could, say, play song 1, 2, and 3 from C, but play songs 1, 5, and 6 from Am. Or maybe you could incorporating timing. Set up her R to allow you to pick between different speeds, and she'll shift to the new speed in a couple measures. Each measure, you can play up to four notes, and at the end of the measure she'll cast the spell, but you have to play each note before its time in the measure (so you don't have to be perfect, but if the spell is Q-W-Q-E, you have to input them in that order and you have to use W before halfway in the measure - most of the time I expect people would just spam them all at the start of the measure, of course). Mana is drained not by spell, but by how fast the music is going. At the end of each measure, regardless of if you played anything or not, you lose mana. If you keep it slow, like you would in most of the laning phase, she'd slowly regen mana. If you sped it up to get more casts per second, it'd start draining very fast. If you don't have enough mana to pay the cost, or if you mess up a measure, you'd get a brown note, with some sort of negative effects - maybe a brief silence or stun or something? Other options could be weird meta stuff - maybe a song that transitions you suddenly to a faster beat in three measures, giving your foes less warning, or maybe a combo that's a silence that takes the form of an actual in-game self-Silence but also lets your mana regen quickly for a bit. Lots of options! There are lots and lots of these super-complicated combo-based thematic things you could do. However, if you are a party-pooper and want it to be simpler, you could just make R a true modifier that swapped between two "sets" of notes for 6 notes total. Each spell would be a combination of some number of those notes strung together. For even more simplicity, you could make R a normal ult and make each spell a sequence of Q/W/Es strung together. I think that's most realistic, but also really far divorced from the original concept and not nearly as interesting. Regardless, I'd still prefer it if all of her spells were positional. For instance, instead of shooting bolts of music or whatever her Q is supposed to be, she could create an aura or GTAoE of damage over time. Instead of healing with bolts and shielding everyone else, she could separate those into a healing song and a shielding song. She could have AoEs that gave bonus on-hit damage, AoEs that gave spell vamp, AoEs that gave speed boosts or slows, AoEs that negated crits for a very brief time, or what have you - but no direct targeting like she has now!
Honestly what you are making me think of are the different clefts that exist in music, C, F, and G clefs specifically and how the musical notes differ based on which clef you happen to be playing in, the line for the A note in the C clef for example is a completely different note on the F clef. Turning her into a stance dance, or really clef dance, type of champion and opening up her QWE to change depending on what stance you are in and how well you play is actually a pretty solid idea. You could even add a passive that get a different effect based on the combination of clefs you have been in, so say if you combine C and F clef you get a more damage oriented passive but F and G may be more utility based and perhaps C and G would be healing or something. She could start out with her R from the beginning and would then effectively have 1 abilities at level 1 up to a total of 9, if you are going all out. You could see real potential with that but lord would it be insane to code, play, and keep track of. Fun as hell to. Sadly I don't think riot gives enough of a damn about Sona to ever do something that cool with her.
: As one of the 'STACK ALL THE AP!' people, there's a thing i noticed about how her gameplay works, and one of the reasons behind my saying that she feels better as a mage; Epic instrumental music (Two Steps From Hell and others) usually start slow, and rise through a progression that takes *time*. While fairly okay, often the music doesn't really get going before 2-3 minutes in. Comparatively to a League game, that would be midgame. A midgame where you've built up some amount of AP and the efficiency of Sona's kit really starts to become apparent (pre-nerfs anyway). This ties in with her ultimate's passive, as she 'plays faster' every time she boosts Crescendo. And, the crashing finale where she's stacked so much AP and her music's become so strong that the only way to stop her 'performance' is to all-in her because her team is overboosted by her tunes. A kit about music can't be designed for the likes of one spell rotation, i think. It has to encompass her performance as the game goes on, which really, it makes a fair attempt at right now. Think of every spellcast she makes as 1-2 notes in a grander song. In that regard, her lategame spam aspect makes perfect sense. The song does not pause halfway during the finale. It doesn't excuse the fact that she can't currently stay viable/strong for any amount of time or she becomes an oppressive stat-check champion that requires practically the least skill in the game, and her gameplay could and should be made much better across her entire kit, ease of play and new players be damned. As for the auras, they're unavoidable, i think. At least in some form. To me they represent the place where her music is most impactful, where her allies can get the best beats. Here's a basic idea of mine for a rework, that would keep the progression, simplicity, and spam aspect of her kit but add skill requirement (and probably would'nt work for some reason, as these things usually go); Every spell Sona casts creates a ring that extends outwards from her in all directions, think like a soundwave. Every 2/1.75/1.5? seconds (reduced with levels ONLY), a weaker note is struck automatically, with diminished(or diminishing?) range and effect. These notes would repeat 3-4 times before stopping. Rings deal the appropriate effect to the appropriate targets. (Q damage to enemies then lesser damage, and maybe ally damage boost. W Shields then heals allies. E either speeds allies and slows enemies or just speeds allies. (or something else entirely?) There's also the option of turning her ult into a fourth regular (like udyr?) spell that would stun then slow, maybe with damage, but lower than Q. Every time a spell is cast within .25(less?) seconds of another note, an additional effect is granted for the spellcast. Boosted effects should be the same going from Q to E or E to Q, for simplicity purposes. The CD of her spells itself would go down normally but she'd still be power/skill-gated by the rhythmic aspect of the kit. Is it worth to skip the beat to do something immediately and lose the added effect, or do you wait and time it right? It would solve her playing mid issues as Q would be waveclear, but keep the support aspect intact as a support would be more inclined to level W/E (maybe the new R?) As for her powerchord mechanic, i simply think whatever last spell she used should give her a smaller, varied buff to her AA, if we really wanted to keep it, but ultimately i feel it's not particularly necessary as her musical mechanics would be enough gameplay to handle. What'chu think?
I think the design and mechanics of a champions kit should reflect their design and their power scaling with items and such should be a secondary aspect, not something integral to their kit. If they want to make her an out right mage who uses music to wreck shop then sure that's fine as long as they get the kit design down. Honestly I feel a better way to make Sona if you are going to do something like this would be to remove the CDs from her QWE abilities and create something like a rhythm mechanic where her spells gain additional or stronger effects the more she activates them on rhythm. This wouldn't be to say she couldn't activate them without the rhythm just that they wouldn't have the impact, perhaps the spells get a base effect and the aura's only happen if she keeps the rhythm going. Would be hard as hell to keep the beats going while navigating a team fight which would shut up all the "sona takes no skill" ignorance we keep seeing. As for what the spells effects would be or what the aura's would be well who knows. Also it's possible you could get some ability to control the rhythm in her kit, perhaps ultimate resets the rhythm or something. Several possible ideas really.
: {{champion:432}} fuck u say about me
Picking up chimes found on the ground and having the name bard does not make you a music based character.
: I'm a bit of an exception; I liked the base idea of her rework. I like seeing the impact of Sona's current oneshot buff auras far more than i did looking at an ally's stats going up by 10-20. It has a feel-good effect that old auras didn't give to suddenly see an ally go up by 40% MS late game, or seeing the powered up shields go up. I'm also a bit of an exception in that as far as i'm concerned, we can ditch the entire idea of Sona being a support and make her a mage like she deserves to be. I'm fully aware it's unlikely to be a thing, but hey that's my thing. I love bards, and i love music, but Sona's lore and character thematic lend themselves very poorly to the support role, kit be damned. If it takes a rework that makes her require a *lot* more skill, so be it, i'll adapt and learn to play it. Even better if it manages to make everyone happy about the aura thing. I just want her to be able to thrive in the midlane.
Honestly I wish Riot could get even a single music themed champion right. I mean we got Sona who was originally decent in that regard but has been butchered. Then we get a champion literally named Bard but all his kit really has to do with music is picking up chimes. As much as I really wish for Sona to be an aura mage I would honestly concede that if they could deliver on the musician element of her kit. That might be really hard, how do you capture something that can be soothing and gentle one moment, rhythmic and driving the next, followed by a crescendo into that lingering feeling of damn near euphoria as it resolves? Would be really hard to do something that complicated with a kit that involved all of 4 buttons. Might be one of the few times CertaintlyT's creativity could be put to some actual good use as even though he tends to break the holy hell out of everything he touches his champs deliver better on their themes than any other designer at Riot.
: I Got This to Say to Everyone About Sona's Current State
Most, read literally every Sona main I have seen post on these boards, absolutely hates the rework of Sona and do not want her to exist in the state she exists in now. Most, read literally every single Sona main I have seen post on these boards, want Sona to be a true aura champion like she originally was, a champion who's focus was on buffing healing and utility via move speed with decent poke and a strong ult. It isn't what Sona is that Sona mains love, it's what she WAS that they still love and want back. As for the issue of the automatic kit frankly I wouldn't care if Riot decided to make her Q a skill shot or projectile that could miss, I wouldn't care if the reworked her W to work like Lux's W in that you have to shoot it at your team mates, and I couldn't give a crap if you had to target who gets the move speed buff of your E like Lulu does her W. These mechanics don't mean jack to me when it comes to what I want from this champion. What I want from this champion is the aura mage fantasy that Sona promised when I first bought her way back when as the first champion I ever bought back when I started playing in season 2. If this means her Q becomes a skill shot that only procs an aura if you land it then sure sign me up. If this means her W heal has to be targeted on an ally and only provides bonus aura effects when specific requirement are met bring it on. If that means her E has to fundamentally change so the speed boost actually requires more than mashing the button then fine. I don't care about how the mechanics work as long as the aura mage fantasy is fulfill and frankly Riot took a big shit on that fantasy with the abomination we where given in her rework.
Darkeus (NA)
: Wait, why are we debating anyway? It seems we agree and have unfortunately had a misunderstanding somewhere. I think you overestimate her damage. I have seen myself and others wiped out so fast to know her damage doesn't mean squat until after Laning... Her early damage used to mean something when it costs 45 mana to cast and her W healed and shielded more. Now she cannot put out that damage enough for it to matter at all. So that is why she is bad EARLY GAME. She has WAY LESS WAYS to make it out of lane without having 4 deaths and game being pretty much over, even WITH vision you are nothing but a cannon minion that can heal. I was not here for Sona's rework. It seems I started playing Sona RIGHT after it. So I only know one Sona. So I can only talk on how she was when I picked her up to main her to now, where she has been nerfed into the dirt.
Because what we are disagreeing on is the reasons why her early game is tough, and why her win rate tanks the higher up the ladder you go. When I was climbing last season I played Sona a number of games in high silver and low gold and I crushed with her specifically because those players did not know how or where not willing to hard engage on me. Soon as I got to mid gold though I would see a Tristana jump on me as soon as I was in jump range just to hit me with her E 2 AAs and then ult me away and watch me die as she jumped away from my carry at around half HP. It wasn't that my poke was irrelevant or not strong enough, it's that I had zero way to keep Trist from jumping on my face and blowing me up, BTW this was through W power chord just to emphasize how squishy Sona really is. The biggest reason she falls off so hard isn't because her poke doesn't do enough damage it's because there is literally nothing she can do when hard engaged on. Sona isn't a champion with individual agency really, outside of her ult, pre-6 she literally just had to hope opponents don't know what they are doing and exploit that fact, but if they do she is 100% defenseless with little to nor recourse. It isn't that she lacks damage she lacks it's that she lacks everything else, survivability/CC/relevant defenses/peel/etc. My point is if you where going to fix what is wrong with Sona damage is the wrong place to focus because her damage is literally the only part of her kit that isn't massively under tuned.
Chessoms (NA)
: tbh, her lack of cc has never been the BIGGEST problem for her early. She's always been able to work around that by having strong trading potential by making use of her q and w. The problem is, both of these have been nerfed substantially. So now, she doesn't have enough pressure to warrant not having early cc. The other problem is that her abilities are multiplicative by how many allies she can tag. Because of this, they're scaled in a way that makes her weaker when she can only apply it to herself and 1 other person. If her abilities were strong enough to out perform other supports when she only tags 1 person, she'd be way too broken. Idk, Sona's has a long history of being a hot mess. The community is divided between people who want her to stay a very low skill reliant champ, and those who wish for her to be given opportunity for skill expression.
The idea that Sona is a low skill champ is flatly false and only perpetuated by ignorant people who know absolutely nothing about how to accurately judge skill in this game. Sona's skill isn't measured in big flashy plays or high mechanic skill. What she doesn't require in that regard she makes up for by having positioning requirement so oppressive ADCs facing a team of Kha/Zed/Talon count their blessings. There is literally no champion in this game punished for poor positioning worse than Sona and it all comes from her literally being the only champion who starts the game off squishier than a canon minion. At low levels this doesn't matter because they have no clue how to punish you for it. At higher levels where people know how to deny safe positioning you are a free kill. Sona's only answer to keep people from punishing her for poor positioning is by doing so much damage to you that you can't engage on her. The problem is she has 1 damaging ability and the rest of it comes from auto attacks which forces her into dangerous positioning, so a good player eats your 1 poke ability and immediately engages on you while it's on CD and you proceed to die. Now if riot ever decides to actually give durability to Sona to the point she doesn't insta-die to anything then perhaps you could make the argument she doesn't require a lot of skill, but as long as she continues to have the most oppressive positioning requirements of any champion in the game then no that is not a fair argument. In terms of issues with Sona her problems isn't the design she originally had. The problem was she got remade by someone who admitted to not giving a damn about Sona or caring how her reworked ended. They proceeded to ignore ALL feedback provided by the community, and have since ignored the champion almost all together outside of a few tweaks hoping it would placate Sona mains and then nerf her anything they change an item/mastery that allows her to start to show relevance. There was literally zero reason to rework Sona originally other then Riot suddenly deciding they hated auras, and by extension Sona, even though she was already falling out of favor when the likes of Thresh started popping up. So what do you get when the company that made her decides they don't like her design and hands her off to someone who doesn't give a damn about the champion themselves and half asses the job? You get the hot mess that Sona is now.
: > [{quoted}](name=R FLASH EMOTE XD,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PJXdyKuA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-21T17:40:08.606+0000) > > may i remind you > {{champion:122}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:429}} Created, not reworked. CertainlyT's reworks have been good. Because, you have to admit, he always adds *something* unique and interesting. Even if it ends up being unbalanced, it looks *fun*. He turned Warwick from his old bullshit, boringness to the awesome beast he is now, with abilities that can actually be dodged. And, come on. Thresh isn't even that bad. A hook from Thresh isn't 100% certain death, nor is it even a promise of losing most of your health. It doesn't even pull you over a wall!
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PJXdyKuA,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-12-21T17:48:00.587+0000) > And, come on. Thresh isn't even that bad. A hook from Thresh isn't 100% certain death, nor is it even a promise of losing most of your health. It doesn't even pull you over a wall! Thresh completely warped the bot lane when he was first released and had to be nerfed more times than any other support in the game not named Sona, who got like 40 nerfs in 1 patch, just to make him even semi-balanced. Upon release you played Thresh and your choice of 1-2 champions who could compete with Thresh. Prior to Thresh's release you played any of some 8-10 or so supports that existed. Twisting a lane from every champ that could fill the role to just 1 champ and the select few that don't get destroyed by him seems pretty damn toxic and that is exactly what Thresh did. In order to bring him into line it took.... Moving his bonus AA damage from his Q, what he maxed first, to his E, what he maxes last. Removing the AoE shield from his lantern, to single target Nerfing his Q CD when it doesn't land Nerfing his ult to only do damage on the first wall break Nerfing his ult slow Nerfing his Q to no longer interact with Flash, literally the only champion in the games history to have this done Nerfing his base stats Adjusting the mechanics of his lantern so it could be body blocked Those are just a few and as I said aside for Sona who got like 40 nerfs in a single patch, IE her rework, no other support in the game has needed so many nerfs just to make them not oppressive. Yeah Thresh was a failure upon release one in which the balance team did everything they could to rectify, with admittedly some level of success so go balance team.
Darkeus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8x90oTAA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-21T22:41:41.386+0000) > > League is really snowball oriented right now, that's how preseason pretty much always goes, and if you are trying to judge a champions worth based on something that is going to change, and is changing, it's a little silly. > > Instead I'm judging her based on her actual position in bot lane, IE the roll she fulfills compared to other supports. It's a fine roll for her, although balance might be another issue. > > Also not sure what you mean by Sona having no early game at all, right now with Aery mastery she goes to lane and lands her Q+empowered AA on the ADC and most lose like 1/3-1/4 of their HP depending on if they have Doran's shield or not. Her early game is fine if she can position to avoid engage from opponents, if she does get hard engaged on though she is toast. I think you have forgotten about her nerfs. That is why she has no early game. Any Sona main will tell you that it is really hard to consistently do that damage AND W your ADC. She has extreme mana issues now early game. Aery was nerfed. Scorch was or is going to be nerfed. Sona's Q cost 15 more mana to use AND her aura damage was nerfed. Her W was nerfed two patches ago. She has a 39% win rate between 0-25 minutes into the game. YES, she has no early game. If you happen to survive all of the damage she CAN'T take before mid game then you can win. Good luck doing so. And her winrate Plat and above only reinforces this fact. Her early game USED to be alright. Now you have to buy Tear and take Manaflow band to even have a chance. The facts are easy to look up man. Go on Lolalytics and check and how fast she has dropped with recent nerfs. To say her early game is okay is laughable to be honest. I don't think many Sona mains would agree with you at all.
You seem to have an odd version of what early mid and late game are. By the 25 minute mark you are well into the mid game, in this meta late game honestly. She falls off hard at higher levels because at higher levels we don't sit around eating free poke, we get into the minion wave denying her minions to block with and then we land CC on her and watch her die. Most people below gold think she is oppressive and don't abuse her squishy nature. This fact doesn't take away from the damage she does with her poke and her damage isn't the issue with her early game. Tell me what do you think a Sona does against a Leona/Blitz/Alistar/Thresh at level 2? If she attempts to poke any of them she will get locked down and killed, provided they know what they are doing. In a snowball meta what do you think that does? Sona's issue isn't that her damage isn't good enough, the only bot lane supports that out poke her are the mage ones like Xerath/Vel and possible Nami/Lulu. Her issue is she has absolutely nothing to protect her or her ADC from early game hard engages. Those damage nerfs didn't break her, yes they had an impact, but as long as you keep placing blame on her damage, which is literally the strongest thing about her, and ignoring her biggest and most glaring weakness of any champion in the game, that fact that she is the squishiest champion in the game to have zero CC or ability to survive pre-6, than everything you keep going on about with her is irrelevant.
: This: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xuFw4xt,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-21T22:37:55.635+0000) > > Eh it's the explanation that makes the most sense And This: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xuFw4xt,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-21T22:37:55.635+0000) > > and it's what I would do in their shoes. Just screw with people during preseason and get a kick out of it:D Are not equal. Just because it is what you would do does not make it what a functioning professional business would do. You clearly have no idea what such professionals would or would not do, else you would have assumed something more rational and accurate. No. It is not the explanation that makes the most sense. The explanation that makes the most sense is that Riot happened to upend balance for preseason because that is a side effect of making major changes to the underlying systems of how the game works. They are obviously trying to balance the game, as shown by their willingness to nerf some things that were extremely unbalanced with preseason (for example sona). It makes no sense for a professional business to screw over their customers "just because anarchy is funny and fuck 'em anyway." Not only would it be bad for business, but it would be damaging to their reputation as a company to do something like that. And on top of being a professional company, they are players themselves. Many of them play this game every day, often taking breaks in the middle of work to playtest things or have scrimmages. It stands to reason that players what the game to feel fun and balanced to play, and since most of them play this game, it also stands to reason that they have no motivation to screw over the balance "just because anarchy is funny." Stop spreading fake news about Riot. You're attempting to hurt their reputation for things they haven't even done.
There is this thing called a joke and sarcasm, both seem to have gone WAY over your head.
Darkeus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8x90oTAA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-21T18:57:22.443+0000) > > Problem is she isn't just generally good. She is an ok poke support with decent healing should you get the right items. Her issue though is that she is completely out shined by other champs. In terms of champs who can proc ardent and protect the carry while poking in lane you have both Nami and Lulu who out poke her, provide more CC and utility. In terms of kill supports blitz/thresh/leo/etc crush her and in terms of healing supports Soraka/Nami again top out. If it's just straight protection you want Lulu/Janna/Braum/Tahm tend to do it better as well. > > Sona is a jack of all trade master of none type of support who also has the unfortunate element of being squishy as wet tissue paper, legit early levels a canon minion takes more AAs to kill than Sona. She isn't bad but she is certainly fallen from grace when she was the best support in the game, now she is passable and even preferable against some specific match-ups if she can position correctly, which frankly is a perfectly fine spot for her. I agreed until that last sentence. She is not in a good spot at all. League is really snowball orientated right now. Games end by 20-30 minutes these days. You know what Sona's win rate is in that time period? 39%. She has no early game AT ALL now. This is not a fine spot and she is losing to people she COUNTERED before the nerfs.
League is really snowball oriented right now, that's how preseason pretty much always goes, and if you are trying to judge a champions worth based on something that is going to change, and is changing, it's a little silly. Instead I'm judging her based on her actual position in bot lane, IE the roll she fulfills compared to other supports. It's a fine roll for her, although balance might be another issue. Also not sure what you mean by Sona having no early game at all, right now with Aery mastery she goes to lane and lands her Q+empowered AA on the ADC and most lose like 1/3-1/4 of their HP depending on if they have Doran's shield or not. Her early game is fine if she can position to avoid engage from opponents, if she does get hard engaged on though she is toast.
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xuFw4xt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-21T18:59:15.621+0000) > > and rito laughs at all the chaos caused by it Wat? That is not how it works.
Eh it's the explanation that makes the most sense, and it's what I would do in their shoes. Just screw with people during preseason and get a kick out of it:D
: I gotta know Riot, why are their plat players in my silver ranked games
Probably the same reason there are master players in my plat games. Welcome to preseason where you get randomly stuck with damn near anyone who plays the game and rito laughs at all the chaos caused by it, because nothing matters right now. Once preseason fully ends it should return to normal.
Quepha (NA)
: Sona still has a number of positive matchups
Problem is she isn't just generally good. She is an ok poke support with decent healing should you get the right items. Her issue though is that she is completely out shined by other champs. In terms of champs who can proc ardent and protect the carry while poking in lane you have both Nami and Lulu who out poke her, provide more CC and utility. In terms of kill supports blitz/thresh/leo/etc crush her and in terms of healing supports Soraka/Nami again top out. If it's just straight protection you want Lulu/Janna/Braum/Tahm tend to do it better as well. Sona is a jack of all trade master of none type of support who also has the unfortunate element of being squishy as wet tissue paper, legit early levels a canon minion takes more AAs to kill than Sona. She isn't bad but she is certainly fallen from grace when she was the best support in the game, now she is passable and even preferable against some specific match-ups if she can position correctly, which frankly is a perfectly fine spot for her.
Vanëssa (EUNE)
: Delete Scorch, it's just stupid...
You misunderstand Gathering storm, it doesn't care about your level it cares about how much time has passed in the game. Scorch on the other increases it's damage with your level up to a total of 60 damage. The math, for most champions, works out so that gathering storm becomes stronger than scorch after 30 minutes but before that scorch is stronger. Considering most games tend to end in ~20-25 minutes right now that makes scorch is simply better in the vast majority of your games.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: I get it. But is not normal
Actually it's pretty normal for ADCs who are that far into their build. It's why normally if ADCs die they die to burst damage, like assassins, or someone like Syndra/Ahri/etc. ADCs do sustained damage and life steal happens to be really good and surviving sustained damage. You didn't need 6 AAs to kill Ashe you should of planted your charge on her AAed like 3 times and then ulted hoping your burst killed her and if your burst didn't kill her you should of gotten out considering she was so much father ahead than you.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: FUCK THIS GAME> I CANT DAMAGE ASHE. IS THAT NORMAL?
An Ashe with a bloodthirster and Hurricane is getting healed from all 3 targets she hits, meaning she is stealing a hell of a lot of life from you and anything else she hits such as minions. You damaged her, she just healed it all back, and if she had specific masteries she got additional life steal for each kill she got added on top of it all.
: I don't understand why people buy armor
You had 100 bonus armor vs a Kha with 54 lethality and 35% bonus armor pen, you had 1 completed item he had 4, you're level 10 he's level 14, you had 6k gold he had 13k...and you are surprised by this out come because...?
: Best bot lane duo
So got to play all of one game so far since new masteries so take what I say with a grain of salt. That said in the one game I did play I found that I could actually do some damage as Sona, most likely because my opponents had no resistance and I start with nearly 30 AP. Her ability to proc the free consumables is also pretty damn awesome to and makes it pretty hard for other poke based supports really do much to get you out of lane, you still go squish to all ins though.
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ItmLk7aH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-04T21:13:42.514+0000) > > SSGs playstyle very well may revolutionize pro play just based off of how complete their victories are. Additional their victories are not built around 1 person, IE Faker/Bjerg/Doublelift/sneaky/etc, but instead around all 5 members actively working together without anyone really showing off or taking the lime light with big flashy plays. > > Sure it isn't a showy as many of the other teams but it sure as hell as is showing to be more consistent over the long run than what others are doing atm. It's funny because the same thing was said about SSW in 2014... then SKT won the next two worlds.
> [{quoted}](name=MetaCosmos,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ItmLk7aH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-05T18:08:24.037+0000) > > It's funny because the same thing was said about SSW in 2014... then SKT won the next two worlds. Eh I'll concede it could be very meta dependent. For example an assassin meta like we had in the hay day of Zed/Kha/etc doesn't give a damn about team based strategy because the assassins could 1v5 get kills and get out in most cases. Would strongly argue however that such a meta was wholly toxic to the game for that exact same reason. 1 person should not be able to 1v5 and the game should be based on team strategy but we will see what riot decides to do in the upcoming preseason.
: WHAT? SSG 3-0'd SKT?
SSGs playstyle very well may revolutionize pro play just based off of how complete their victories are. Additional their victories are not built around 1 person, IE Faker/Bjerg/Doublelift/sneaky/etc, but instead around all 5 members actively working together without anyone really showing off or taking the lime light with big flashy plays. Sure it isn't a showy as many of the other teams but it sure as hell as is showing to be more consistent over the long run than what others are doing atm.
: Bronze vs. Silver vs. Gold
Never played in bronze but from the 3 divisions I have played in, Silver/Gold/Plat, I can say that Gold is by far the worst experience I have ever had in league. In silver I could actually get people to listen to me when I was shot calling, or giving advice. Most of the players seemed like they legit wanted to improve and just didn't have the game knowledge required to do so. This made it a lot of fun to effectively coach my way out of silver as long as I was willing to take a little bit of time to explain what needed to happen, easy to do on run backs from shop. Plat has in general been pretty good. I've gotten the occasional idiot or rager but for the most part people know what they are doing which frees me up to focus more on my mechanics that telling everyone what they should be doing. Gold on the other hand is my elo hell. Apparently idiots in gold think they have actually accomplished something of note and feel like they are God's gift to League. They listen to nothing, they 1v5 while being 0/10 and if you simply say "please stop going solo and work with the team" you can expect to be flamed if they don't out right rage quit. I've been in so many gold games where I practically begged my team to take dragon/turrets after bot lane recalls and enemy jungler shows themselves top mean while our jungler just got done taking dragon scuttle. It's like no one gives a damn about getting better and feels like simply being gold means they no longer have to try and can consider themselves good. I prefer incompetent people who listen and improve to competent jackasses who are apathetic to the prospect of getting better.
: The whole line is: > **_with the exception of a few specific champions in the class_**, AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!! Added emphasis to the part you missed. DoT mages in League fall closer to DPS style damage, and Cass herself *is* a DPS mage
Kayle/Azir/Zyra/Heimer are also some others that are pretty decent at killing tanks none of which are DoT style. I'll grant I missed your first comment but I don't feel it is as much of an exception for mages to kill tanks as you might think.
: The first and only thing you have to realize (and I am amazed that myself an unranked player in mid-silver elo has to tell a plat 3 this, but also not because it's you): with the exception of a few specific champions in the class, **AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!** You do burst damage. You want to know the one absolutely surefire thing that beats burst damage? Health. Want to know the main core stat on a tank? Health, again. So when you put those facts together, you get the fact that you aren't going to be killing them as an AP champion unless you are someone like Azir, Ryze, or Cass, who all deal DPS style damage. Kapeesh?
> [{quoted}](name=TouchFluffyTaiI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxdM0d8Q,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-01T05:05:38.627+0000) **AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!** idk I have pretty good success against tanks as Cassio/Brand/Malz. Most AP's have trouble but there are some who actually do pretty good at dealing with tanks for one reason or another.
: ***
Mage mid laners where never "the only pick" for mid as Assassins, and hell way back when the ADC was who went mid while a melee went bot with a support of sorts. Tank junglers where also not the only junglers since well ever hell the original junglers where Warwick and Fiddlesticks, 2 very different types of junglers. Also enchanter support have never been the only types of supports, back in the day when Sona/Soraka where at their peek you also had Leona/Blitz/Nunu/Alistar all running around and being used as well. Likewise there are more than crit based ADCs or even damage focused ADCs. Ashe for example is used more for her utility, vision and pick off potential than doing a ton of damage. MF get used for the zone control and team fighting power of her ult as oppose to AAing everything a 100 times a minute. There are ADCs who are based more in spellcasts than autos, see Jhin and Ezreal. Every role has a variety of styles in which to play it and pretty much has for a while a now. You may not like or enjoy them but trying to say that ADCs are some how unique and every role has adapted over time but ADCs don't is simply silly and ignorant.
EkyonKun (NA)
: https://imgur.com/a/iiHt2 His silence is 1-2s but his suppression is 2.5s
Fair enough, perhaps I was just feeling tenacity or something and misjudged it.
Wolfeur (EUW)
: @Riot: A veteran Support main's opinion on the support role currently
Welcome to the world of limited warding. You say you played back when the game was young and supports could drop more than 3 wards, 4 including a control, think about that and then ask yourself "was I ever as idle then as I am now?" If you give an honest answer you would say no and the reason is obvious, you where playing a mini-game within the game, not only warding the map but also clearing wards with the oracles elixir while attempting to be safe, not die and keep your oracles up. Now that mini-game is a shell of it's former self, you have 4 max wards to place and are restricted from sweeping/checking for wards via the CD of your Sweeping Lens. This strictly limits the action you can take out of combat as when you have your 4 wards placed and your trinket on CD there isn't really anything you can do until the fights start. This is one of the biggest reasons I very heavily opposed the warding changes but I was told I had no clue what I was talking about. Simply put those changes where not a blessing to the support role they where a massive nerf that not only reduced the power of the role but out right limited what there was for the role to do. Now I'm not saying we have to go back to S2-S3 pink ward spamming days but frankly I would like to see items for support that have nothing to do with combat, similar to sightstone. Give me an item that acts as a Clairvoyance with true sight so I can find that Twitch/Eve/Rengar/Kha/Vayne/etc who free stealth damn near unopposed. Give me more items like ZZ'rott or Banner of Command but actually make them good and worthy options. Hell give me an item that lets me set up a portal to jump an ally a short distance, give me an item that lets me put up a wall only ward, IE a ward that had to be placed on a wall and only give vision in a specific direction instead of in a 360 degree field of vision. Give me additional methods to clear wards. Just give me more to do out of combat that wait ffs. I don't need to scale with AP, or health or anything that, I'm not a tank, I'm not a mage I'm a damn support I want utility items not stat sticks.
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmG1bEuN,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-10-30T01:14:02.648+0000) > > And notice your response, IE calling it cancer. You want the big bruisers battles or the tanky tops or whatever but if the champ has ranged and makes life hard on you it's cancer. > > ADCs feel the same way towards assassins and burst mages > Tanks feel the same way about ADCs > Assassins feel the same way about supports > > etc etc. People hate what makes their life hard it doesn't mean it should be removed. I have _one lane_ I can bring my melees to, and I still get taken to the woodshed by non-interactive ranged picks, I think it's reasonable to be upset about that? Oh right I forgot melees aren't allowed to have fun in this game, they're just supposed to be CC bots to support the real champions.
Strange you say that as aside for this season, which is an anomaly not a standard the same normally holds itself for ADCs as they have been the same way in that they can also only go to one lane. It was only riot breaking ADC itemization that we start to see Corki/Lucien mid laners and Ezreal jungle. Side note doesn't graves even count as an ADC anymore? Anyway the point is still the same, and saying "I only have 1 lane" doesn't change my point, you don't like a specific champ because it tends to be strong against you so you wouldn't mind removing it while you come up with several excuses as for why the champs you like to play should all be viable and nothing that oppresses them should be to strong. It's bias and everyone has it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Martyrofsand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmG1bEuN,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-30T01:06:58.492+0000) > > Now tell them melee top laners shouldn't be mandatory and that top lane should be for champs like Liss/Ryze/Kennen/etc and watch those same people loose their shit. > > People are bias against what they don't play, this isn't new. What are you smoking, top lane is flooded with ranged cancer {{champion:150}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:133}}
And notice your response, IE calling it cancer. You want the big bruisers battles or the tanky tops or whatever but if the champ has ranged and makes life hard on you it's cancer. ADCs feel the same way towards assassins and burst mages Tanks feel the same way about ADCs Assassins feel the same way about supports etc etc. People hate what makes their life hard it doesn't mean it should be removed.
Dynamia (NA)
: Someone said ADCs should stop being mandatory...
Now tell them melee top laners shouldn't be mandatory and that top lane should be for champs like Liss/Ryze/Kennen/Quinn/Jayce/etc and watch those same people loose their shit. People are bias against what they don't play, this isn't new.
EkyonKun (NA)
: Are you sure? I looked on both gamepedia and the league wikia and both say 2.5 seconds. I'd have checked the official league page, but I bet it still says his voidlings are his passive and that his W drops a pool that does % max health damage.
Used malz to get gold in 3s it's 1.5 since his rework although his silence increases in duration as he levels up to 2 secs if i remember correctly and the combo of both feels like an eternity.
EkyonKun (NA)
: My one and only issue with Malzahar is his ult, and it's for how much is packed into one button press. Point and click (Cannot miss or accidentally hit minions) Instantaneous (0 second reaction time) 2.5 second suppression (A long time + Unable to cleanse OR negate with tenacity) Does a lot of percent max health damage (Building anything but strict MR is borderline useless) Has medium range (Doesn't really have to enter a very compromising position to use it) Refreshes Malefic visions (More damage) If he gets a gank, it's almost a 100% secured kill if you're not literally touching your tower. Also, unless you're an artillery mage, you'll have a hard time getting rid of his passive to make that ult a bit more threatening to use. Outside of that, he's pretty much a wave clear DPS mage with a silence, which doesn't bother me too much. Everyone's allowed to have their own purpose, but that ult man. If Riot ever touches him, I think that's what they should look at first.
> [{quoted}](name=EkyonKun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2k6LQFVi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-29T05:50:50.594+0000) > 2.5 second suppression (A long time + Unable to cleanse OR negate with tenacity) With his remake they made it a 1.5 second duration suppression actually.
: Unpopular Opinion: Malzahar should honestly receive a nerf.
Frankly the best thing they could do against Malz is let Cleanse remove suppression, or hell just let cleanse remove all debuffs, the thing has a stupid long CD there is literally zero justifiable reason why it's strictly worse than a 1300g item.
iLBGAMing (EUW)
: TF never uses other cards
Um actually I tend to see TF use all three of the cards pretty regularly through-out the game. Blue card is to refund mana often after trades to get ready for the next trade for example, red is his wave clear card and yellow is his pick-off card, although on occasion I've seen him go red card in clustered fights as the AoE effect can be pretty brutal in the right moments. Its really like any other ability honestly with the only real difference is TF has to pick which function he wants where as if I am say Syndra my E is pretty much always going to be able to stun/wave clear or my W will always be able to slow/wave clear.
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Martyrofsand

Level 49 (NA)
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