: > Cloud9 tried to force their own strategy without adapting to what Fanatic was doing Just about sums it up. Why you would ever pick Lissandra is beyond me. She is not that good in the current meta (has been not good for the most part for years). Same for Ekko. Why are you scared of the Aatrox? Did you not completely beat TSM with Hecrim into Aatrox? Even the analyst desk said that there were 3-4 champions who have proven effective vs him. As for the melee support, I get their goal, since it has worked for many of their recent games. But that was with Sneaky on Lucian specifically. Not Tristana, not Viktor (wtf was that even), Lucian.
> [{quoted}](name=JavelinJoe,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=eHjlpFLE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-28T19:36:09.399+0000) > > Just about sums it up. > > Why you would ever pick Lissandra is beyond me. She is not that good in the current meta (has been not good for the most part for years). Same for Ekko. Why are you scared of the Aatrox? Did you not completely beat TSM with Hecrim into Aatrox? Even the analyst desk said that there were 3-4 champions who have proven effective vs him. > > As for the melee support, I get their goal, since it has worked for many of their recent games. But that was with Sneaky on Lucian specifically. Not Tristana, not Viktor (wtf was that even), Lucian. Lissandra's been a strong pick all worlds long, but in specific matchups. Seeing her in game 1 was ok, but going back to it every single game did bother me. We've seen Jensen perform very well on more carry oriented picks and it would have been great to see them go for something like that at least in game 3. As it were, Jensen couldn't make any roams happen and the ganks mid were ineffective. Ekko was supposed to be a counter to Viktor, which I'm not going to contest because I don't have the depth of knowledge to say it is or isn't. It didn't work in game 1 and Licorice didn't seem to be all that comfortable on it, so I wish they would have gone with something else in game 3 as well. Bring out the Singed, get Rylai's and proxy. There was very little to respond to something like that on the topside of the map it feel. Viktor's CC isn't reliable, neither is Aatrox's. Rek'sai does have the one knock up that's fairly easy to land but Singed can ground her with adhesive, letting him get away all the time. Anything to not go back to a losing matchup. Sneaky had bad moments (specifically the walking over the feathers as Lucian, even I saw that coming a mile away) but I think the Viktor bot and the Lucian were good picks, and the combo with Leona and Braum respectively were also very good. They should have gotten more help from Sven I think, and they could have just destroyed those lanes, but Sven was trying so hard to control the topside that he barely touched on bot it feels. The Trist pick was disappointing to see, I'm not sure why they went there. Overall, it feels like they tried too hard to play for the solo lanes, even though it's been a good way to play the game this worlds. They had 2 winning matchups in bot that they could have snowballed but didn't. If they felt they could win the solo lanes with more aggressive picks for Jensen, or more comfortable picks for Licorice, just get champions that can neutralize those lanes (either simply through great waveclear or being slippery and having fair waveclear) and invest in your bot lane. It probably would have been disappointing if they lost 3-2 also, but 3-0, the way it went, just feels crushing.
: If C9 wins worlds
Usually the skins they make are for champions they used a lot or had memorable performances on at worlds, afaik. If that is the case: Licorice: Hecarim, Ornn Sven: Nocturne, Xin, Graves Jensen: Zilean (few games on it but it's always banned against him) or LeBlanc Sneaky: Lucian or Kai'sa, case could be made for Sivir Zeyzal: Thresh, Alistar, Braum. Hope it's not Alistar but he is the #1 support pick this worlds
chantree (OCE)
: Europe win worlds?
C9 vs FNC seems 50/50 to me. Top favors C9 imo, bot favors FNC, mid and jungle is pretty even. My hope is C9, I won't be surprised if either of them win. IG_ should_ beat G2. They have better players in pretty much all positions. Giving this a 60/40 chance of an IG win.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: Ya FNC vs IG looks like the realistic Finals, but I have no idea, this worlds has thrown all predictions out the window.
> [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=avKmalzm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-22T09:32:43.160+0000) > > Ya FNC vs IG looks like the realistic Finals, but I have no idea, this worlds has thrown all predictions out the window. So what you're saying is C9 vs G2 finals? {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
: 35 points! :D C9 vs Fnatic is going to be amazing !! HYPED. {{sticker:sg-kiko}}
55 points now, got close in knockout thus far (fucked up hard in group though) http://pickem.lolesports.com/share/series/5/user/128651/my-picks
Rioter Comments
: Yep I figured easy Afreeca win over C9. Consistency while adapting is key especially when playing in a best-of series and C9 hasnt shown this, especially bc they had to rotate a 7 man roster to just make it to 3rd in NA. No chance on the worlds stage when theyre missing one of their subs especially against a top Korean team You also have a fresh rookie licorice vs the korean monster Kiin that their entire team can play around in top lane. GG Quite likely Afreeca vs RNG finals which will be pretty interesting with a top aggressive carry focused top team vs a superstar adc carry team
> [{quoted}](name=ForFoxSakes,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ziL0OkjV,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-19T01:14:50.447+0000) > > Yep I figured easy Afreeca win over C9. Consistency while adapting is key especially when playing in a best-of series and C9 hasnt shown this, especially bc they had to rotate a 7 man roster to just make it to 3rd in NA. No chance on the worlds stage when theyre missing one of their subs especially against a top Korean team > > You also have a fresh rookie licorice vs the korean monster Kiin that their entire team can play around in top lane. GG > > Quite likely Afreeca vs RNG finals which will be pretty interesting with a top aggressive carry focused top team vs a superstar adc carry team Have you seen Licorice play at all? If there is 1 player on C9 I have no concern about, it's him. He's showed up pretty big in all of their game (except maybe his Akali game, but that felt more like a comp issue). If they want to take it to him, let em have it. It's pretty easy to diss on NA, but C9 has shown good play, good drafting and flexibility. They play to win and I think that's a stark difference with every other team coming from NA (this year and in the past).
: Pickems Knockout Stage
The hope is C9 vs KT The probable final is FNC vs KT
: That is luck -1000000
With pleasure, here's your 0$. Have a nice day sir.
Zertryx (NA)
: C9 always makes it decent ... but you know what they never do? and prob never will? Win worlds ... NA will NEVER win and it is because of our gaming culture vs other regions. NA take on gaming culture is less serious, we rather play normal ques over Ranked, we stream and do goofy stuff as entertainers, we don't take practice as serious as other regions like Korea or china, we don't have the discipline in that area and this is why we will NEVER win Worlds.
Have you been in pro practice? Have you talked to pros what their daily routine is like? What you're saying is at best hearsay or repeating popular ideas about why NA has done poorly so far. If I was to guess, as I don't think anyone has a definitive answer as to what hinders NA internationally, I would say confidence is the biggest factor. history gets to their head, they always (up until now anyway) think that Korea has all the answers and the right ideas and they drop what made them successful in order to clone the "right" way to play the game. What we've seen today is that there is no right way to play the game. There are good plays, synergies, comps, but there isn't a universal best. If playing aggressive made you successful at home, and you start playing reserved and go for late game, of course you're going to fail. C9 just showed that if you have the right picks _for the situation_ in the hand of good players, you can make things work your way. They find picks they feel counter popular champions, and they make it work. That was so refreshing to see.
: Link? Which one before Worlds, after their series? Which one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-bOwhY9MY&list=PLCE8B2947392E1CEA&index=15&t=0s
: Group of death wow
I don't feel like C9 troll in quarters. Last year they went to 5 games against WE, who were really good. In 2016 they went against SSG who went to the finals and took SKT to 5 games. 2015 was the great NA collapse. 2014 they went against SSB and honestly didn't look bad at all. I'm hopeful this year even more so than in years past.
: it's because I gave C9 my energy! If there's anyone to thank it's me
> [{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=T2lphZf6,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-10-14T16:38:35.234+0000) > > it's because I gave C9 my energy! If there's anyone to thank it's me Actually, it seems we need to tank Travis Gafford, of all people. Look up his interview with Sneaky. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}}
: I almost got it right myself... I expected Vitality to perform worse than they did and GenJ to be slightly better. I had those two reversed, but I got C9 and RNG in their correct spots. I simply guessed that the stars would align to allow C9 to get out of groups since IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. Somehow, they nearly ALWAYS manage.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=TRAdFJl1,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-14T19:38:47.029+0000) > > I almost got it right myself... I expected Vitality to perform worse than they did and GenJ to be slightly better. I had those two reversed, but I got C9 and RNG in their correct spots. > > I simply guessed that the stars would align to allow C9 to get out of groups since IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. Somehow, they nearly ALWAYS manage. I went with similar thoughts. I'm a big C9 fan so I went with heart but also with this idea that they often profit from other teams tearing each other apart. This time though, they performed great and GenG just couldn't adapt to the pacing. In my mind I had the group like this: RNG 6-0 C9 3-3 GenG 2-4 Vit 1-5
: no one in NA cares about worlds, they just say that to make people think they care. I wouldn't give two craps about winning worlds if I make 300k a year by just existing.
> [{quoted}](name=Astrophel,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=BwVT9y30,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-12T18:52:37.760+0000) > > no one in NA cares about worlds, they just say that to make people think they care. I wouldn't give two craps about winning worlds if I make 300k a year by just existing. So what you're saying is you have no pride? I'd say 99% of professional athletes/players want to win. Even teams that are eliminated from playoff contention want to win even if it doesn't give them anything because that's just in them. Money is nice and all but these guys aren't in it for money. (yes they're well payed, I know)
: NA Needs to Stop Picking Ryze
The thing is, Pobelter and Ryu have played Ryze has their main champion for the past year. It's their comfort pick. I'm not saying you're wrong as far as NA with Ryze at worlds (much like NA Jayce) but otherwise it's going to be Malzahar 24/7. Jensen can play anything though and I think he'd be better off on something else too.
: Product placement in Worlds Casting
It's been this way for nearly a year though...
: I really dislike watching NA play
C9's first game felt terrible. Sneaky in lane meme is old, and it hasn't been true lately either, but that was by far his worst performance in a long time. Licorice played really good though, and I'm left wondering how this game would have gone if not for the massive feed bot in the first 6 minutes of the game. 100T's game was also really bad to watch aside from the early play of Anda. Ryu looked like Pobelter when C9 brought out the swole bros for the first time. Massively outdone by Caps, who just rampaged all over the map after that. TL's first game honestly didn't feel bad to me. Yes, of course, the level 1 incident was cringy, but aside from that it felt like they played a good vision game and had some good picks. DL just lost so much from not having flash the first 5 minutes of the game. All in all, from seeing 4 games of NA so far, I have little faith in 100T (didn't have much to begin with), I think C9 can pull off the ol' "3-3 we edge out the other 2 teams cause our group is balanced" and TL can still bounce back. Really excited to see the TL vs EDG match, it should be pretty telling.
Dr Poro (EUW)
: You shouldn't look at historical facts. The meta at MSI was very different from today's meta. Look only at the playoffs/gauntlets for references. Play-ins are also misleading. The teams they faced are wild card region teams. While wild cards are getting closer to major regions, you can't compare them to the top of korea/china.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=m3mAQddR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T20:49:19.529+0000) > > You shouldn't look at historical facts. The meta at MSI was very different from today's meta. Look only at the playoffs/gauntlets for references. > > Play-ins are also misleading. The teams they faced are wild card region teams. While wild cards are getting closer to major regions, you can't compare them to the top of korea/china. While I'm generally in agreement that history doesn't always translate in the present, for teams that have have longstanding issues getting out of groups (EDG, TSM, Flash Wolves being prime examples) I think it does matter. There's a mental effect on those teams. Whatever they did to get to worlds, they often just don't do once the event begins, trying to copy "more successful regions/teams" and it ends up biting them in the ass. Either that or they try so hard not to lose they end up not doing anything proactive and bleed out slowly, a lot of that due to a mental block. Albus Nox Luna showed something when they got to the knockout stage. If you believe in what you do, and for whatever reason other teams take you lightly at first, you can take games off of better teams. They came in with nothing to lose and played as such. The teams who come in hot from their major region but have a bad history, they come in with a chip on their shoulder and it shows. I agree play ins a misleading/hard to read. You never really know the relative strength of these teams. C9 had some struggle in their play ins but they also played multiple types of comps, seemingly trying things out as they went and using those games as super scrims or something. EDG stomped pretty hard though, showing fewer things however. They still looked rather convincing, especially iBoy and Meiko.
Flemman (EUW)
: http://pickem.lolesports.com/share/series/5/user/699061/my-picks well, we kinda have the same except group B were the first seed of LCK should end in first placd imo For the chinese team, I can't put any of them in first place as they have a bad habit of choking hard in group stage while the 3 Korean team are safe bet the biggest question mark to me is flash wolf, they usually play ap assassin mid and, except akali (and maybe lb/kass?), we haven't seen many of them during the play in. I don't know how they will perform in an urgot meta
> [{quoted}](name=Flemman,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=m3mAQddR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-07T21:46:03.914+0000) > > http://pickem.lolesports.com/share/series/5/user/699061/my-picks > > well, we kinda have the same except group B were the first seed of LCK should end in first placd imo > > For the chinese team, I can't put any of them in first place as they have a bad habit of choking hard in group stage while the 3 Korean team are safe bet > > the biggest question mark to me is flash wolf, they usually play ap assassin mid and, except akali (and maybe lb/kass?), we haven't seen many of them during the play in. I don't know how they will perform in an urgot meta RNG won MSI and look very strong still, and they have been the best team from China at worlds historically, getting to the final or semi final. They are a bit like C9 in that they have performed better at worlds then their region's top seed every time. Other than that, I didn't go full on logical with my picks because the group phase of worlds never follows logic. Top teams choke, underdogs overperform and the result is always pretty wild. Korean teams do usually perform up to what we expect. http://pickem.lolesports.com/share/series/5/user/128651/my-picks I hesitate a lot for group A, I feel it's the group where anything can happen. I kinda wanted to put G2 lower but FW is the TSM of LMS. I went more with my heart than my head in group B (GO C9!) and the rest was mostly logical (KT could beat EDG, as EDG always underperforms at worlds but they seemed strong in play ins so... dunno)
: Opinion on Worlds Meta so Far
For a long part of the summer split, casters and analysts kept saying Nocturne was an NA special, that few others played it. I haven't checked if he's been buffed since then or if people just caught on to him. As for the rest, I enjoy that top isn't 90% tank with the few Rumble or Gnar picks here and there, and that jungle is pretty varied. Mid can be assassins or mages which is cool. Bot lane is back to normal which is kind of sad. I'd love to see more than marksmen and tank there.
Dr Poro (EUW)
: Predictions Worlds 2018
Worlds has a way of making sound predictions void (Albus Nox Luna anyone?). I'll go in the prediction challenge with upsets in mind this year more than ever.
: To Riot: THE NEW LOLESPORTS VODS PAGE MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID SPOILERS.
While I agree that spoilers suck, and should be avoided by the official website, you have the alternative on reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/LoLeventVoDs/
: Uhhh. It sort of crumbled before that to some degree. The bans weren't great, they forced a singed ban but had no plan in hand for when that happened - they could have been a lot more creative and opened a situation where they could take multiple power picks. As i mentioned before, I'd gladly leave up janna galio kalista and take 2 of the three. They just were not prepared properly or took a dive for $$$. They felt forced to take both Cait and later on Shen(another global shield would have been hilarious), instead of trying to dictate the pace of the draft phase. Kalista would probably have to be taken by WE, and running a protect the kog/twitch/cait with janna and galio is more broken than anything kalista could accomplish alone. You wouldn't even have to pick your ADC early as they can't ban out all three so you'd still get something great, meaning you have a third pick before the 2nd set of bans to lock a priority pick (or let's say world elite notices you don't ban kalista and they alter their bans, potentially opening up ez/j4/trist). They could have taken singed 3rd if they followed my type of plan, or locked someone like syndra (probably the only true "burst" midlaner left in the meta) and sent galio top. Galio has no weaknesses this patch - clearly 1a for mid or top and janna is clearly 1a support. I think the gap between those 2 and everyone else is bigger than people want to admit to themselves as well. Passing on galio was easily the biggest mistake given the context of how the draft went. The fact they took sej second is just icing on the cake. Probably the most overblown jungler at worlds this patch. Once that Galio pass happened nothing else really mattered. I don't think any meta team comp can burst through janna galio locket heal barrier (peel) and massive lifesteal unless they are way ahead and that would never happen when they have 3 winning lanes.
> [{quoted}](name=PoeticJumpshot ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=JEITa9rF,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T07:58:32.605+0000) > > Uhhh. It sort of crumbled before that to some degree. The bans weren't great, they forced a singed ban but had no plan in hand for when that happened - they could have been a lot more creative and opened a situation where they could take multiple power picks. As i mentioned before, I'd gladly leave up janna galio kalista and take 2 of the three. They just were not prepared properly or took a dive for $$$. They felt forced to take both Cait and later on Shen(another global shield would have been hilarious), instead of trying to dictate the pace of the draft phase. Kalista would probably have to be taken by WE, and running a protect the kog/twitch/cait with janna and galio is more broken than anything kalista could accomplish alone. You wouldn't even have to pick your ADC early as they can't ban out all three so you'd still get something great, meaning you have a third pick before the 2nd set of bans to lock a priority pick (or let's say world elite notices you don't ban kalista and they alter their bans, potentially opening up ez/j4/trist). They could have taken singed 3rd if they followed my type of plan, or locked someone like syndra (probably the only true "burst" midlaner left in the meta) and sent galio top. Galio has no weaknesses this patch - clearly 1a for mid or top and janna is clearly 1a support. I think the gap between those 2 and everyone else is bigger than people want to admit to themselves as well. Passing on galio was easily the biggest mistake given the context of how the draft went. The fact they took sej second is just icing on the cake. Probably the most overblown jungler at worlds this patch. Once that Galio pass happened nothing else really mattered. I don't think any meta team comp can burst through janna galio locket heal barrier (peel) and massive lifesteal unless they are way ahead and that would never happen when they have 3 winning lanes. I watched that game in 2 parts, first was draft during my first break of the day at work and the rest of the game during lunch break. Just seeing the draft made me not want to watch the game. I had the same sinking feeling I got when I saw TSM pick kog ryze and jayce. There's a million ways this draft could have gone, and this was one of the worse possible one.
Draden (NA)
: Well you can tell people have no idea why things were picked/banned, but I agree they should have taken Galio over sej. No one banned lulu/Janna, you can’t ban one on red side, then they get a free bot lane. They picked Janna forcing the cait pick as Janna cait lane destroys. They wanted to pick lulu before second bans or they would still lose bot lane. I think they didn’t want to pick a solo lane because they didn’t want to get countered, however, I think you have to take Galio. As far as bans, I agree they should be banning kog. WE picked cait in game 2 and got smashed, mystic is their whole team, don’t let him have kog and I’m confident you almost automatically win the game. I can see the reasoning, but you have to respect the Galio.
> [{quoted}](name=Draden,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=JEITa9rF,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2017-10-23T01:00:42.220+0000) > > Well you can tell people have no idea why things were picked/banned, but I agree they should have taken Galio over sej. No one banned lulu/Janna, you can’t ban one on red side, then they get a free bot lane. They picked Janna forcing the cait pick as Janna cait lane destroys. > > They wanted to pick lulu before second bans or they would still lose bot lane. I think they didn’t want to pick a solo lane because they didn’t want to get countered, however, I think you have to take Galio. > > As far as bans, I agree they should be banning kog. WE picked cait in game 2 and got smashed, mystic is their whole team, don’t let him have kog and I’m confident you almost automatically win the game. > > I can see the reasoning, but you have to respect the Galio. While Kog was very strong in Mystic's hands, I think the amount of protection he had and the lack of backline access from C9's draft played a huge role in his success. The main reason J4 was banned was because he was lethal on Kog. He delivered Orianna's ball and made sure he couldn't move out short of blowing flash. Boom, dead kog. After the J4 ban, they should have picked something else that could get to him. Galio could have done that, as could have a few assassins. Picking Galio was critical imo. It would have allowed Contractz to play a damage oriented jungler which he's great at and would have put a lot more pressure around the map. Galio exerts pressure just by being mid lane, and a warrior reksai (or something similar) would have been much more impactful in the early stages of the game where C9 wanted to be proactive. All the picks from C9, taken out of the context of the draft, are fine champions. Ori is one of Jensen's best, Impact is great on Shen, Sneaky had a dominant Cait game in game 1 (despite the loss), Sej is a top winrate jungler and Lulu is one of the better ardent censer support, after Janna. But in the context of this draft, given the bans, the pick order and what they were trying to do, their picks weren't good. A tank top lane against a ranged split pusher, and control mage when you want to delete a backline threat, a tank with low damage output when you need to pressure and kill the botlane to put them behind all just don't make much sense. Cait was first picked, so there's little criticism to be made there. It's really all in the Galio going through ban phase AND not being picked after Janna. That's where it all crumbled.
: C9 Majorly OutPick/Banned in Game 5
This didn't feel like being simply outdrafted. Being outdrafted would imply that you were forced to get losing lanes due to prior bans/picks not giving you real options. In this case, C9 opted into everything they took. They left Janna, Lulu, Kog and Galio open. WE picked Janna, a very powerful support for any adc, but even more so for a champion like Kog who needs to be protected due to his immobile nature. That's fine though, as it left Galio for C9 who had played it with great success in play-ins. Only C9 didn't pick Galio, a 100% pick/ban champion at worlds this year. They opted to pick Caitlyn and Sejuani instead. Now, Cait and Sej are strong picks in their own rights. Sneaky had a bonkers performance on Cait in game 1, despite the defeat, and Sejuani is a priority pick in most games. However, and this to me is very important, Galio is far more potent than those two. He creates pressure on the entire map when played mid, gives the team a high income, high level tank and great waveclear as well. We saw in the game just how ridiculously tough he is. He also opens the draft either for a carry jungler, which Contractz has been very good with during worlds, or a good split pusher for Impact, such as the Gnar that 957 ended up with and that Impact has shown excellent proficiency with in the past. After that, WE picked up Galio AND Gragas, meaning they had their 2 frontline champions already, after which C9 picked Shen. Impact is great on Shen, and he made some pretty good move with him during the game. But since he wasn't against a Maokai or Chogath, that left the top lane wide open for Gnar to destroy everything. And they had to know it wasn't going to be a tank top, since WE already had Gragas and Galio. They needed some more damage or, alternatively, very strong split push pressure. The last this is the Orianna pick. It is Jensen's most picked champion I believe, probably close with Syndra if anything. He's very good on it, and I will not dispute that it was an ok pick. The issue I have with it is that they didn't really have a good way to bring the ball to Kog, which meant that there was little in the way of reaching the only major teamfight threat on WE. Jensen's a very good LeBlanc player. Contractz could have played warrior reksai or Khazix or maybe even and AP Elise if Galio had been picked up. Those might have had a chance of picking off the Kogmaw. I would have been sad if C9 had lost even if they had drafted in a more... reasonable way. But this just felt like a throw, a loss at champion select. This doesn't feel like WE outplayed them, it feels like C9 tried to give everything away to WE.
: Nice, what do you mean by the korean complex?
> [{quoted}](name=Chemtech Ionian,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0NjAVhmo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T16:35:48.113+0000) > > Nice, what do you mean by the korean complex? This ingrained idea that the Korean are just better and will win regardless. At the same time, there's the NA complex that says the region sucks and can't compete on the world stage. Both are not quite true, but it's still in everyone's mind, including the players. Wolf said in multiple interview that they expected to go 6-0 in groups, that their performance had not been up to their expectations and standard despite going 5-1 and winning a game that was, by most anyone's standards, a sure loss against EDG. Meanwhile you have NA teams who have a hard time playing proactively because they feel/think that they're always a step behind their opponent. So they play reactively and hardly ever push the tempo of the game, just waiting for more mistakes from the enemy and playing passive otherwise. tldr: LCK plays to win and are certain they will, NA plays not to lose and aren't too sure if they can even do that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Croanin,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Vwf9Z3ZK,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-15T22:46:33.486+0000) > > Yea people are giving Hauntzer shit. But he dodged the first few ganks well. Better then Dyrus ever would have for sure, the guy couldn't smell a gank to save his life. > He didn't have the support, he did what he could overall. Nah, Hauntzer did very very poorly in that game vs MSF that sealed the deal for TSM Dyrus would have done MUCH better in not getting behind before Sven could actually move top. Sven went for the invade and camp stealing as game plan early game, Maxlore went for the shutting down jayce game plan, and by then at min 3 Jayce got caught in the gank because he got greedy to keep Cho'Gath away from the wave and as result had to flash away and back up because he was low health before Sven could barely do his own red and heading towards raptors to get his usual farm after stealing MSF blue and gromp and doing rift scuttler to set up vision in the river for Hauntzer. After Sven compete the clear in his jungle and back, he goes top at 5 min but Hauntzer, while being basically even in CS, is pushing the lane towards MSf tower and has no mana so no way Sven can dive a full health Cho'Gath with a lvl4 Sejuani and with the back-up of a no mana Jayce, then he goes to do Rift scuttler again to give Jayce vision, but meantime Jayce back get stopped and Alphari pressure Hauntzer, so he returns in top river brush but by the time they decide to dive Cho'Gath, Maxlore was yet heading top to go for the pressured Jayce and so he save Cho'Gath (that has to spend the flash anyway) from the 3 man gank (because Bjergsen decide to roam top with Ryze when he hit 6 and get ulti), with Ch'Gath losing basically 0 farm as result of the gank since Hauntzer had to back any way (he has no mana and has to do 1st real buy) and actually being able to being even after backing up and returning BY WALKING in lane in the Ch'Gath vs Jayce match-up At this point TSM is fucked because they have lost top lane since at MINUTE 9 CHO'GATH WAS AHEAD OF JAYCE IN FARM and MSf has a ocean drake too. Sven was set up by TSM to protect the Jayce (at minute 9 he still keep putting wards in top MSF jungle without having showed yet in other lanes, and 30 sec later engage Maxlore to near Gromp and force him to blow flash back under top tower) but the Jayce failed spectacularly and Sven had no impact till that point because the other lanes were basicallly even since junglers basically were never there to interfere with the leaning phase Sven was outjungled by Maxlore being slow (as well as the entire team was) in reacting to MSf and getting surprised by them, but in the tie-breaker game the worst player on TSM was EASILY Hauntzer that fucked up TSM game plan
That lane was played in the LCK as you probably know and Jayce needs to be very aggressive to deny Chogath of farm and experience. To do so, he needs his jungler to be active with him and gank repeatedly. Again, watch Longzhu vs SKT or the feature Zirene did about that game. Both jungler and mid laner sacrificed farm and experience to get Jayce vastly ahead of Huni. Sure, Sven gave Hauntzer vision in the river, but vision was not what was required. And if Sven's gameplan was to counterjungle and farm, then that was a poor plan to begin with. What's more, Ryze should not have been a priority pick with a top lane you want to snowball. Rift Walk is great for mid to late game when you can use it to out-rotate the other team and get objectives uncontested but for gank assist, Taalyah would have been better. The travel distance is longer, the travel time is shorter and it creates impassable terrain, meaning no flash=no way out. Overall, I think TSM just half assed their comp and the strategy to go with it and they got destroyed because of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=MysterQ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=XLaALUyW,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-15T21:17:57.980+0000) > > Any game won with Ryze can be won by any other midlaner. Except for that no champion can replicate Ryze's ult use. or the synergy of Ryze/Naut C9 showed us
> [{quoted}](name=Lupan,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=XLaALUyW,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T04:05:59.204+0000) > > Except for that no champion can replicate Ryze's ult use. or the synergy of Ryze/Naut C9 showed us Ryze still has a terrible win rate this worlds. That might be less of an issue with Ryze than an issue with drafts that don't work being built with him in them but the stats still say it's a terrible pick currently. I'd be curious to see what Kog'Maw's stats are.
: you fanboys are crazy they didnt adapt 2 anything they got carried by edg blowing it and skt the fact is they got lucky
> [{quoted}](name=grimrookzero,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az9E901X,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-10-15T22:33:35.114+0000) > > you fanboys are crazy they didnt adapt 2 anything they got carried by edg blowing it and skt the fact is they got lucky TSM didn't adapt, IMT didn't adapt, C9 did. They picked an early game comp and beat ahq from minute 1 till nexus fall. They kept the Censer support but picked early to mid game champions, strong split pushers instead of banking on getting to late game and winning teamfights. That's adaptation. That's what I would have expected TSM to do. They even had 4 games to change playstyle and the best change they came up with was Jayce top, and they didn't even support him in any way. The fact is, you are your record. FNC shouldn't be in the quarterfinal, because IMT should have won a game. IMT carried FNC by losing badly? How about TSM getting wrecked by FW, who couldn't find their ass past the 15 minute mark throughout the group stage. Did they carry MSF to quarterfinals?
MysterQ (NA)
: NA can do better. 0-11 this year.
Why stop at 11 when you could go to 12?
: IMT really only needed to win 1 game to make it out of groups with FNC being 0-3 and GAM being 1-2 I think, but no IMT had to lose 4 straight games. They chocked 4 times and now they need good ol' cough drops.
> [{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8sLdUq0I,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-12T13:14:10.511+0000) > > IMT really only needed to win 1 game to make it out of groups with FNC being 0-3 and GAM being 1-2 I think, but no IMT had to lose 4 straight games. They chocked 4 times and now they need good ol' cough drops. 2015 C9 all over again. I Had not seen it coming back then but when IMT lost to GAM, I had a sinking feeling this would go down the drain...
: LZ isn't Korean?
> [{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=zp0MIGMZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-12T17:27:46.966+0000) > > LZ isn't Korean? They were so far ahead they might as well not have been there
Melvear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MysterQ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EGgruTM9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-12T04:53:08.358+0000) > > Changed my mind, NoWay is pretty clutch in traditional play (IF ahead). > > Edit: And they just ruined IMT's day. Like literally before this started, I said whoever plays GAM first might get their day ruined lol. > IMT still has a chance, but that has got to be tilting. Hopefully not the start of NA's typical week 2 {{sticker:sg-janna}}
> [{quoted}](name=Melvear,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EGgruTM9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-12T05:03:42.159+0000) > > Hopefully not the start of NA's typical week 2 {{sticker:sg-janna}} And so the prophecy unfolds...
: YOU MADE HISTORY NA ! GJ
The great NA collapse has begun... again {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
MysterQ (NA)
: Changed my mind, NoWay is pretty clutch in traditional play (IF ahead). Edit: And they just ruined IMT's day. Like literally before this started, I said whoever plays GAM first might get their day ruined lol. IMT still has a chance, but that has got to be tilting.
> [{quoted}](name=MysterQ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EGgruTM9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-12T04:53:08.358+0000) > > Changed my mind, NoWay is pretty clutch in traditional play (IF ahead). > > Edit: And they just ruined IMT's day. Like literally before this started, I said whoever plays GAM first might get their day ruined lol. > IMT still has a chance, but that has got to be tilting. Hopefully not the start of NA's typical week 2 {{sticker:sg-janna}}
: I don't really make predictions. But I Can't very well disagree with the OP at this point. It's a good possibility. All three have it right there for them. Now they have to finish. And it's not can NA finish. NA isn't competing. It's can IMT finish. Can TSM finish. Can c9 finish. That is who is competing. What NA as a region has done in the past is irrelevant. It's all what they do in the here and now. I'm going over each one individually in the order they play. IMT. They admittedly had some jitters. I was most concerned about that. And yet they're still 2-1. They got LZ out of the gate which imo was the best match up for them. Get in and get your feet wet with a team you don't have to beat and aren't remotely expected to beat. Then you get the games you have to win later. That said they still have a rookie at the most important position. Not just a worlds rookie. Flat out a rookie. So far so good. We might know late in the evening/Around 2 am the next morning after depending on Time Zone with Imt. I'm certainly hoping we do. Long story short if IMT and LZ both win their first games, then they both will be the ones getting out of that group in some order. I certainly hope it happens. If LZ loses, then we might know after game 3 if IMt wins that one. IMt is in good position. Beat GAM and you're almost there. Then if LZ does the work for you, it's done. If not, then IMT could finish the job in Game 3. Gam is a dangerous team. I love their cheese. But they're not a great team. And given that Fnatic is airing their dirty laundry in public, they look to be in complete disarray. They didn't play together as a team. Their behavior shows they aren't together as a team. Just bad signs all around if you're a Fnatic fan. Who knows, any given day, anything can happen. They may come together, be the first 0-3 team ever to eventually get out. But it's looking bad right now. I like IMt's chances. But even if they don't get out, I'm still happy. That they're even here is a great result considering. Everything from here is gravy. It looks like we've found an ADC for the future. We've found our leader we desperately needed and got rid of the toxicity and immaturity we didn't all in one trade. Remember when everyone said CLG got the best of that trade? Oh and the coaching has improved tremendously. The next night no NA teams are involved but we could know with that group after Game 3. The next night is the TSM group and we could know something by game 4. If TSM beats both WE in game 2 and MSF in game 4 then TSM is guaranteed to get out of group. Those are the must win games. And unfortunately, We and MSF play last so the result of that one won't be known. And if things come down to that match uh well cardiac arrest time for TSM fans. If they then beat FW too, they are guaranteed Top team out of group. We might know earlier if the FW can upset someone. Hopefully they'll upset every team not named TSM. If TSM loses one of those first two, it's probably going down to the wire. Could be a long night for TSM fans. Their position looks the most precarious at this point. Misfits is better than most thought and We is equal competition to TSM. FW by going 0-3 didn't help anyone out. Still to be 2-1 at this point is fine. I'd rather have things in my hands and be in position than being out of position. It beats being 0-3 that is for sure. Last but not least C9. SKT is looking a bit vulnerable but hopefully they'll knock off the other two teams vying for 2nd and drop one to C-9. They play IHQ in the first game. Go SKT!!! Cloud 9 plays EDward in Game 2. Of all the 0-3 teams, I think Edward the most likely to bite someone. Hopefully it isn't C-9. But even if C9 loses, they're not out of it. Having ED two games behind you going into the final day is nice. Hopefully the first three games will go SKT>AhQ, C9>ED and ED>Ahq and then we'll know. Otherwise things could go late.
> [{quoted}](name=BigBellBrute,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=323tXO6i,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-10-10T20:35:07.219+0000) > > I don't really make predictions. But I Can't very well disagree with the OP at this point. It's a good possibility. All three have it right there for them. Now they have to finish. And it's not can NA finish. NA isn't competing. It's can IMT finish. Can TSM finish. Can c9 finish. That is who is competing. What NA as a region has done in the past is irrelevant. It's all what they do in the here and now. I just wanted to touch on this point here. I generally agree that the past is the past and that what happened a year or two before shouldn't be relevant. And from a mechanical standpoint, that's true. But for teams that have the same roster as the year before, for players who have been to worlds and couldn't live up to expectations (theirs and/or the public's), there's a mental aspect that cannot be overlooked. There's pressure on their shoulders and it can either elevate them or crush them, depending on their personality. Let's hope for the former for TSM.
: Oh I know that. Congrats to that 4th team that gets to see how it feels to compete in another region.
> [{quoted}](name=GeminiRune,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=4E4H7Er3,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-10T22:14:48.092+0000) > > Oh I know that. Congrats to that 4th team that gets to see how it feels to compete in another region. Then again, aren't the semi finals and the final more or less LCK summer split playoffs #2?
: What you're saying is have each region be their own group which would be a possibility although rare? If I wanted that I'd just watch the domestic league you know?
> [{quoted}](name=GeminiRune,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=4E4H7Er3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-10T21:10:21.357+0000) > > What you're saying is have each region be their own group which would be a possibility although rare? > > If I wanted that I'd just watch the domestic league you know? That's actually impossible, given that each group consists of 4 teams and a maximum of 3 teams come from major region.
Rioter Comments
: What the fuck do you want them to do? Lose 10 minutes in because they get picked? What the fuck is your comment? How do some of you think the games gonna go? Teams don't want to lose, that's why they're at a fucking world tourny. *???*
> [{quoted}](name=níghtíngale,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=BfvkWOVp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-10T15:41:48.545+0000) > > What the fuck do you want them to do? Lose 10 minutes in because they get picked? What the fuck is your comment? > > How do some of you think the games gonna go? > Teams don't want to lose, that's why they're at a fucking world tourny. > > *???* I believe this mostly stems from Ardent Censer and supports that can provide it lend themselves to long games. ADCs take a while to truly get online and comps are built a lot around them hitting late game. In a meta where ardent censer isn't a dominant item you'd get more proactive support picks and fewer disengage/savior supports and that often leads to more snowball and quicker games. I don't agree that it's a boring worlds though. Long game become very tense and highly entertaining to watch, in my opinion.
: I'm expecting WE and Misfits will keep TSM from advancing from D. Group B is still dangerous for IMT, but they've shown a lot of mettle and I think they can pull out two wins and advance. I didn't expect EDG to have such an epic meltdown to be 0-3. I figured they would at least compete with C9 for a tiebreaker, but that seems very long odds. So I'm betting IMT and C9 get out from Groups and TSM does not. As things stand from what they've done so far, I think IMT has proven better ability to hang with LZ than C9 did with SKT, so if either goes to Semis, it will be Immortals
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=323tXO6i,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-10-10T14:32:49.134+0000) > > I'm expecting WE and Misfits will keep TSM from advancing from D. > > Group B is still dangerous for IMT, but they've shown a lot of mettle and I think they can pull out two wins and advance. > > I didn't expect EDG to have such an epic meltdown to be 0-3. I figured they would at least compete with C9 for a tiebreaker, but that seems very long odds. > > So I'm betting IMT and C9 get out from Groups and TSM does not. > > As things stand from what they've done so far, I think IMT has proven better ability to hang with LZ than C9 did with SKT, so if either goes to Semis, it will be Immortals Seems like fair assessments all around, although TSM did look their best against WE. I feel like Sven's play improved quite a bit after the game 1 disaster that he was. Hauntzer has shown a lot of prowess and carry potential, as did Bjergsen. Doublelift was great on Tristana but got picked off so bad on Kog I hope he doesn't go back on a champion without mobility. Biofrost had some clutch plays but it feels like the Censer meta doesn't suit him as well as a more proactive, make the play meta would. I'd love to see him on Thresh or Alistar more than on Lulu and Nami. I have faith in TSM advancing. I'm seeing them finish with a 4-2 record, we'll have to see if they get first or second seed though. As far as IMT going further than C9, I think the only difference between the 2 is that Jensen has higher peaks and lower dips while Pobelter has more even performances and more composure. Jensen seems to have a hard time controlling his nerves in high intensity games. Otherwise Contractz has had a surprising start at worlds, performing overall very well for a recruit and a first timer at worlds. Impact is playing really good, as is Sneaky and Smoothie. Cody Sun was shaky to say the least in their first game but he looks to be on an upward trend. Xmithie is always good even when he gets put behind, as we saw against GAM. Flame had a very good game on Jayce, but I don't know that he's quite as good as Impact overall.
: This might just be the year for NA to get all 3 teams out of groups
My pick em has all 3 teams getting out of groups. C9 mostly off the back of EDG choking, IMT because they're just better than both GAM and Fnatic and TSM because other then Sven, they all perform good (although Doublelift was bad on Kog)
: How many teams make it to the knock out stage?
Top 2 of each group, so 8 total
: Spent the past 2 weeks randomly checking for any LCS live streams 3-4 times a day
> [{quoted}](name=Valhalla Rising,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=sh5QFBP5,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-07T03:40:09.437+0000) > > Not once did I find any, just a couple rebroadcasts. > > Considering League of Legends is the Google of Esports, I don't see how are Esports are ever going to surpass Football spectators at this rate... > > Kinda feels like the bubble is bursting. I've been trying to watch hockey this whole summer but there was nothing on. How's the NHL supposed to surpass MLB if they have nothing on? ... oh wait. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: hence why i said its kinda surprising that they are 2-0. but once out of group it goes to playoffs? and best of 3? is that right ?
> [{quoted}](name=jwebb0113,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=5RrjKmjE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-07T22:43:11.951+0000) > > hence why i said its kinda surprising that they are 2-0. > > but once out of group it goes to playoffs? and best of 3? is that right ? Bo5 format from quarterfinals to final. TSM seemed to have some early jitters in their opening game against flashwolves but they globally performed at a much higher level against WE, even Sven. I don't think they'll be tilting much this year.
: The thing is LZ is at least anchored by a seasoned pair of pros in Pray and Gorilla. While Khan, Cuzz, and BDD are new faces to Worlds and might stumble the knockout, I think their bot lane can at least power them out of groups. And while SKT had one of their most shaky splits to date while getting to worlds, they're back at Worlds and that might mean another skin line with gold wings. No matter what they looked like before now, it's still a scary star studded roster. As for you mentioning SSB and SSW of Season 4....I still can't look at how Blue was knocked out by White and not suspect Blue threw that match.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=LXXwuws6,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T19:34:10.570+0000) > > The thing is LZ is at least anchored by a seasoned pair of pros in Pray and Gorilla. While Khan, Cuzz, and BDD are new faces to Worlds and might stumble the knockout, I think their bot lane can at least power them out of groups. > And while SKT had one of their most shaky splits to date while getting to worlds, they're back at Worlds and that might mean another skin line with gold wings. No matter what they looked like before now, it's still a scary star studded roster. > > As for you mentioning SSB and SSW of Season 4....I still can't look at how Blue was knocked out by White and not suspect Blue threw that match. SSW played an immaculate tournament. I found it surprising that TSM could take a game off of them. The only reason, which was brought up immediately by casters and analysts, is that SSW disrespected TSM in champ select and picked late scaling in all roles, as far as I can tell, _for the lulz_. Blue didn't look as sharp at any point.
: I agree. Especially after seeing how competitive the LCK was this year. But what is the NA, or any other region, missing that stops them from competing? What do LCK teams do that makes them so much better? I'm looking at this from the point of view that the LCK is the standard so how do other regions get up to that level.
> [{quoted}](name=arphaxadUSA,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=7Lzt98tf,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-09-05T14:52:29.615+0000) > > I agree. Especially after seeing how competitive the LCK was this year. But what is the NA, or any other region, missing that stops them from competing? What do LCK teams do that makes them so much better? > > I'm looking at this from the point of view that the LCK is the standard so how do other regions get up to that level. There are two things holding NA back, in my opinion: 1- NA seems to play not to lose in international events. There appears to be a huge inferiority complex going on and it's hurting their proactivity in game. They feel like a tennis player that returns most balls but never tries to get some winners, instead waiting for his opponent to make mistakes. It can work, but Korean teams as a whole do few mistakes and capitalizing on them isn't always possible. It's easier to say than it is to do it, but NA teams need to go in with a different attitude. They have to get in games to win. They have to realize they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. NA teams losing at Worlds is pretty much the expected outcome. If more than one team gets to the knockout bracket, it'll be an exceptional year. If any get to semi, it'll be unprecedented. 2- Sometimes it feels like NA teams don't have a clear game plan. They get in game knowing that they have either an early game comp or a late game comp and try to work around that, and that's it. When I was listening to The Dive's latest episode, and they were talking about the LCK final, it became clear to me that Korean teams have something more in depth going into games. Longzhu beat SKT by hammering top lane in a very relentless fashion. The got their carry ahead but also brought SKT's top laner to a point where he was irrelevant. I don't think i've ever seen this kind of commitment from any NA teams to get their carries ahead. Jungle proximity will be higher but in no way is it has hard and focused as this was.
dEAdbUs (EUW)
: So what was the point of this post? Got no answer how to dodge Yasuo's Q while he can dash to you and cast it in melee range. How to dodge Darius Q while he can get MS boost from: passive, Black Cleaver, Deadmans plate.
> [{quoted}](name=dEAdbUs,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nbIlqoJL,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2017-05-02T01:34:50.614+0000) > > So what was the point of this post? Got no answer how to dodge Yasuo's Q while he can dash to you and cast it in melee range. _Respect his range through use of minions, notice that he's got his stacks ready, play accordingly?_ > How to dodge Darius Q while he can get MS boost from: passive, Black Cleaver, Deadmans plate. _If you're not going to evade his blade, might as well get hit but the shaft. _ Sometimes, things aren't spoonfed but you can get the information you need through extrapolation and even thinking about how things work yourself!
: Jhin is a great champion in my opinion. He's also honestly pretty simple.
> [{quoted}](name=Toplane Fencer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T09:15:30.640+0000) > > Jhin is a great champion in my opinion. He's also honestly pretty simple. Oh I'm not saying he's a bad champion design, but you have to admit, comparing both their kit, Jhin's is much more complex. Ez has an AS steroid passive, a poke skill shot, a poke skillshot that boosts ally AS (used to reduce enemy AS, rip), a nuke blink and a global damage skillshot. No real interaction between his skills, no deep mechanic. Just pure damage and mobility. Jhin has a pretty singular AA "mechanic", synergy between his trap and long range skillshot nuke/root as well as his ult.
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Melvear

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