: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=32RHA7zz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-10T23:11:41.992+0000) > > What an impotent whiner. nice feedback
> [{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=32RHA7zz,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-07-10T23:12:23.179+0000) > > nice feedback You're welcome bud, it was a lot better than this thread. Glad something good came of it.
: So first of all she can actually kite her pretty well if she can't reset her Q she loses some of her damage. Another tip DO NOT TRY TO TRADE WITH HER. All she'll do is intentionally lose the trade so she can suddenly shoot towards you and stun you for a quick 100 - 0. What you need to do to fight her is really just try not to. She is very reliant on her stun so use her sustain against her. If you go in for a kill on her make sure she doesn't have her ult as well. With the new nerfs to her ult level 6 ganks are now able to slaughter her if it's on CD.
> [{quoted}](name=FrostedReapers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRRyFhPA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-10T21:54:23.256+0000) > > So first of all she can actually kite her pretty well if she can't reset her Q she loses some of her damage. Another tip DO NOT TRY TO TRADE WITH HER. All she'll do is intentionally lose the trade so she can suddenly shoot towards you and stun you for a quick 100 - 0. What you need to do to fight her is really just try not to. She is very reliant on her stun so use her sustain against her. If you go in for a kill on her make sure she doesn't have her ult as well. With the new nerfs to her ult level 6 ganks are now able to slaughter her if it's on CD. So the way to beat Irelia is to not trade with her or fight her in lane? On a champion who spikes harder when she completes her first item than any other champion?
Aeszarck (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ellky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRRyFhPA,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-10T21:44:05.406+0000) > > Even if you beat her in lane she WILL out scale you very quickly. No, she relies on going even or getting ahead of her lane opponent. If she doesn't, then she becomes rather useless compared to a lot of other top laners that have more cc, more tankiness, and/or better assassinations. She gets a second chance to beat you when she completes Trinity Force, but if she can't beat you then, then you've crushed Irelia. > Why does she get so much for nothing? What is your weakness?! Clearly not cc, cuz muh passive. She jumps around like a grasshopper on crack. Like, why do you have burst and sustain true damage? Get away from me you tentacle haired Ionian psychopath. Irelia's weakness is tanky top laners that she can't get kills on. Anyone with a very strong level two or three can also crush her, since her first powerspike is at level four. A lack of minions to jump on to get increased gap closing distance is also a major issue. She does not jump around like a grasshopper on crack unless there are a lot of low health minions around, and even then, she will jump around predictably, since she can only jump to the low health minions if she wants Bladesurge's cooldown to be refunded. Irelia might have some burst, but it is nowhere near the burst of any assassin. She's got similar burst to Vi. Both of them rely on Spellblade procs to do their damage, and getting those Spellblade procs in a fight takes time. She's got true damage because she'd be completely useless against tanks without it, since she almost never builds armor penetration. Her build has no space for armor penetration. Lastly, she has sustain to make her less of a lane bully. Rather than put all of her power into damage stats and make her a completely feast-or-famine lane bully, they took some of her power budget and gave her sustain. Also, it makes it harder for her to stun targets, because she is forced to regain her health if she's last hitting, and once her health percentage outclasses the opponent's, then she can no longer stun him or her.
> [{quoted}](name=Aeszarck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRRyFhPA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-10T23:11:17.352+0000) > > No, she relies on going even or getting ahead of her lane opponent. No she doesn't. Irelia's one item power spike is probably the single biggest in the entire game. No champion spikes like Irelia does with her triforce.
: Vayne anyone?
> [{quoted}](name=XxRaidriarxX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRRyFhPA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-10T22:11:28.535+0000) > > Vayne anyone? Irelia dumpsters Vayne in lane. It's not even close.
: i agree that its problematic but for an entirely different reason old poppy : cant touch me, im the juggernaut new poppy : ah dont touch me im made of glass RIP Poppy :*( they even took away her OP taunt "why dont you just lay down your weapons now" AND no skin refund on reworked champs, i have skins on champs i dont ever wanna play in their current state, i do however want to play the champ i bought that skin on again very much.
> [{quoted}](name=aLawfulFalafel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e6yXf0PE,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-10T22:26:47.221+0000) > > i agree that its problematic but for an entirely different reason > > old poppy : cant touch me, im the juggernaut > > new poppy : ah dont touch me im made of glass > > RIP Poppy :*( they even took away her OP taunt > > "why dont you just lay down your weapons now" > > AND no skin refund on reworked champs, i have skins on champs i dont ever wanna play in their current state, i do however want to play the champ i bought that skin on again very much. Old Poppy was a literal garbage champion because if she was allowed to be viable she would be impossibly powerful. Old Poppy was far easier to kill than new Poppy before late game because she had to build pretty much full glass cannon to be effective, but once she hit full build was all but impossible to beat because her ult had literally no counterplay. Just ult the weakest member of the enemy team (especially if they have low CC) and dive the carry, then the mid laner, then the next squishy high damage champion. New Poppy's kit is far better. Shame she became a stupid literal mentally disabled person though.
: I'm not sure I'd call that plenty, especially since his Q is often his engage tool and his W is a channel.
> [{quoted}](name=IronwallJackson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=00060001000000020000,timestamp=2016-07-10T22:34:43.064+0000) > > I'm not sure I'd call that plenty, especially since his Q is often his engage tool and his W is a channel. Yi only needs to use Q to engage early game. With his ult in the late game he can catch people with just his ult. Also, he can use it for both. I was rolling up on Syndra and her pet Volibear and the Syndra tried to Q>E me, which is the proper course of action when a melee carry is trying to kill you. I Q'd it and jumped on her, quickly killed her, then killed Volibear. Yi's Q gives him plenty of outplay. His W is a channel if you're using it for the full heal. The scenario I described has you use it just for the quick damage reduction and the auto attack reset.
: kennen vs darius isn't a hard match up you're very right, i orignally started playing kennen cause i wanted a counter for him. i just really fucking hate fighting him as most melee champs. its not about being able to fight him with kennen. the counter play on his Q can really only work for mobile champs which i don't play a whole lot of so i find it extremely diffcult to do anything against since he has higher base speed or a phage most of the time. and while panth is a bigger lane bully he's only a bigger lane bully 1-5 which is why i think he has better balance, he gets a bunch of early game cheese for a shitty 6 power spike for dueling. as far as skill... dude doesn't have a single skill shot to his name and gets tanky af allowing you to make a shit ton of mistakes.
> [{quoted}](name=Asome232,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xpKQi6Y7,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-07-10T20:08:38.073+0000) > > kennen vs darius isn't a hard match up you're very right, i orignally started playing kennen cause i wanted a counter for him. i just really fucking hate fighting him as most melee champs. its not about being able to fight him with kennen. the counter play on his Q can really only work for mobile champs which i don't play a whole lot of so i find it extremely diffcult to do anything against since he has higher base speed or a phage most of the time. and while panth is a bigger lane bully he's only a bigger lane bully 1-5 which is why i think he has better balance, he gets a bunch of early game cheese for a shitty 6 power spike for dueling. as far as skill... dude doesn't have a single skill shot to his name and gets tanky af allowing you to make a shit ton of mistakes. What top laners who can't just poke him outside of his threat range aren't mobile enough to go in on him for his Q and disengage? His Q is a skill shot, as is his E. Oh, and Darius, despite building full tank, has no tank steroids or mobility, so if he makes a mistake he is deceptively easy to kill.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-07-10T06:19:11.498+0000) > > You know, there are plenty of champs who don't exactly expect to win lane (especially depending on the matchup) so I don't see what the problem is. And what's wrong with being a splitpusher? Shen does that shit all the time along with plenty of other champions. Oh, also he contributes INSANE DMG to his team once he gets going. > > Um, not sure about you but all the Tryndameres I see have him dive right into the fight, start screaming instead of dying, and kill the enemy team. He's about as shit as any other melee carry in terms of being CCd to hell and shit. > > He doesn't need a relaunch, he has a unique identity that needs to be played around to be used effectively, and that identity is plenty connected to his theme. its not about if he expects to win lane or not, but how. his reliance on rng is toxic. there is no skill or gameplay involved. just crit fishing with a couple auto attacks. you crit 2 times in a row at lvl 2, congratulations you just won lane. if not, youre going to be mostly trash. and outside of laning, tryns playstile completely misses the mark as a melee adc. aatrox is a terrible example aswell. he has his own issues. your own experiences dont matter. youre sitting basically in bronze. everything works down there. if you invest a coupe games into him, you could probably carry with urgot at your mmr. champion balace doesnt exist in bronze and your anecdotal evidence to the contrary, at mid level mmr and upwards hes trash outside of splitpushing, while being ridiculously strong and obnoxious as a split pusher.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-10T13:48:03.755+0000) > > your own experiences dont matter. youre sitting basically in bronze. People who explicitly don't post from their real accounts because they are too cowardly to do so shouldn't bring rank up.
: Yi has many, many issues, and his mechanically simple kit is the source of most of them. He has very little outplay potential in his kit, be it on his end or the opponent's, so going up against one will only rarely feel rewarding. Then there's that zero utility issue that makes him just as likely to be a hindrance to his own team as he is to be an asset. Like many other "melee carries," he's a relic of an older, shittier era when Riot was straight up bad at design.
> [{quoted}](name=IronwallJackson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2016-07-09T20:38:57.128+0000) > > Yi has many, many issues, and his mechanically simple kit is the source of most of them. He has very little outplay potential in his kit, be it on his end or the opponent's, so going up against one will only rarely feel rewarding. Then there's that zero utility issue that makes him just as likely to be a hindrance to his own team as he is to be an asset. > > Like many other "melee carries," he's a relic of an older, shittier era when Riot was straight up bad at design. Use your Q to dodge powerful skill shots or CC. Use your W to both blunt quick burst damage (like a Zed death mark or Voli W) and as an auto attack reset to maintain your DPS. There's plenty of outplay potential in Yi's kit.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-09T15:25:27.882+0000) > > Aatrox is the only one who needs a rework. He doesn't do anything. tryndamere needs a rework aswell. his kit is 100% broken. op is right. he relies on rng to win lane. either way win or lose, hes contributes nothing to a team but constant splitpush. his entire gameplay completely misses the mark thematically aswell. instead of palying a raging babarian who isnt afraid to dive into the middle of the enemy team and just destroys an opponent, hes mostly shit in teamfights (unless in the lower divisions maybe), and he tends to completely avoid direct confrontation. he probably needs a complete relaunch on the level of sion. they will probably rework him into a bruiser. it fits his theme more than the highly mobile and mechanical intense gameplay of a melee adc like yi, yasuo or fiora.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-07-09T18:22:53.845+0000) > > tryndamere needs a rework aswell. his kit is 100% broken. op is right. he relies on rng to win lane. either way win or lose, hes contributes nothing to a team but constant splitpush. > > his entire gameplay completely misses the mark thematically aswell. instead of palying a raging babarian who isnt afraid to dive into the middle of the enemy team and just destroys an opponent, hes mostly shit in teamfights (unless in the lower divisions maybe), and he tends to completely avoid direct confrontation. > > he probably needs a complete relaunch on the level of sion. they will probably rework him into a bruiser. it fits his theme more than the highly mobile and mechanical intense gameplay of a melee adc like yi, yasuo or fiora. He's better in team fights than Garen, and is also a better splitpusher. So like, why do you think Trynd is a champ desperate for a rework due to providing nothing for a team, but think that Garen's kit is fine?
: Yes and how long did it take for Riot to bring out the gutting knife after {{champion:114}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:82}} saw play at worlds? The first time melee carries are actually viable in competitive and Riot nerfs them back to soloqueue cheese status the very next patch. Can't say the same for ADC's or mages.
> [{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2016-07-09T17:46:31.890+0000) > > Yes and how long did it take for Riot to bring out the gutting knife after {{champion:114}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:82}} saw play at worlds? The first time melee carries are actually viable in competitive and Riot nerfs them back to soloqueue cheese status the very next patch. Can't say the same for ADC's or mages. Though I don't agree with many of Fiora's nerfs, GP was and still is a problem champion, Darius was too strong and is now in a good place, and Mordekaiser ADC was the most broken piece of shit champion in the game. They deserved their nerfs.
Sahn Uzal (EUW)
: Trynd needs to pray to RNGesus to win the laningphase... But GP needs to pray to RNGesus to win lategame. (assuming the game is close/GPs team is behind) He only gets one chance to crit with his barrels (usually) and he can't get 100% crit anymore in a legit build... Let's say, Karthus' ult damage gets halved, but has a 50% chance to crit and deal double damage... It just creates some really abnoxious situations. The other side of the coin is that GP with, for example, {{item:3078}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3031}} will deal some absurd damage if he gets the lucky crit with his 20% crit. That's honestly what bothers me about GP, as a GP main, it creates abnoxious situations for the GP player and those playing vs him... -Lucky 20% crits can feel really abnoxious for the enemie, especially if GP has a youmuus. -Lategame it feels like I have to cross my fingers and pray my barrel crits, which can honestly decide if you win or lose the fight.
> [{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1LrA4EZu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-09T15:17:18.601+0000) > > Trynd needs to pray to RNGesus to win the laningphase... But GP needs to pray to RNGesus to win lategame. (assuming the game is close/GPs team is behind) > > He only gets one chance to crit with his barrels (usually) and he can't get 100% crit anymore in a legit build... > Let's say, Karthus' ult damage gets halved, but has a 50% chance to crit and deal double damage... It just creates some really abnoxious situations. > > The other side of the coin is that GP with, for example, {{item:3078}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3031}} will deal some absurd damage if he gets the lucky crit with his 20% crit. > > That's honestly what bothers me about GP, as a GP main, it creates abnoxious situations for the GP player and those playing vs him... > -Lucky 20% crits can feel really abnoxious for the enemie, especially if GP has a youmuus. > -Lategame it feels like I have to cross my fingers and pray my barrel crits, which can honestly decide if you win or lose the fight. GP is still one of the single best top laners in the game and still needs serious changes before he will ever be balanced.
: I hate league players so god damn much
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L2cE5oEw,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-04T02:14:50.929+0000) > > Get first kill on Yasuo with Aatrox, still have my passive, going to steam roll him, and my jungler, Amumu, pings hes coming, and I have low health, and yas has half....and then i see this amumu, coming from behind with 1/8 of his health bar...but i see it too late, i had already dived....and this god damn idiot gives Yas a double kill.....AND THE he starts flaming me for picking Aatrox. > > I seriously hate you fucking league players. You are all unreasonable and obnoxious. Also, fuck Yas, most god damn annoying champion in the game. He should be removed completely from the game and every person who ever mained him should be put in prison for life. This isn't your blog.
: Shyvanna always carries
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nf6pqpkT,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-09T17:57:16.941+0000) > > Honestly, I haven't seen a Shyvanna not carry in recent memory. > > She is too much. She does too much well and better than other champions. > > She needs to either be less tanky or do less damage. She shouldn't get the benefit of both. Its too oppressive. > > But Riot DGAF of course. Riot doesn't give a fuck because Shyvana is not a problem right now. You're just bad at playing against her.
: Do you seen Riven, Aatrox, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Wukong, Jax, build FULL tank? No, because they are FIGHTERS. VOLI and GAREN are not fighters, I don't care what Riot wants to call them
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLac71m8,comment-id=0000000000020001,timestamp=2016-07-09T18:04:04.633+0000) > > Do you seen Riven, Aatrox, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Wukong, Jax, build FULL tank? > > No, because they are FIGHTERS. VOLI and GAREN are not fighters, I don't care what Riot wants to call them Yasuo's hot new top lane build builds two damage items that also have HP, and then full tank. Is Yasuo a tank now? Because that's how Garen builds.
: Fighers that nearly always build full tank. Right.
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLac71m8,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2016-07-09T18:03:16.895+0000) > > Fighers that nearly always build full tank. Right. Garen almost never builds full tank.
: I see Garen use his ability to flee more often than to engage. Its so annoying, especially because he silences you and then sprints away. Its a little much. You can't use abilities to chase him down because you are silenced AND he just sprinted away. This is also made more annoying by the fact that he looks like a fucking idiot..how the fuck is he silencing anyone?
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLac71m8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-07-09T17:12:59.168+0000) > > I see Garen use his ability to flee more often than to engage. Its so annoying, especially because he silences you and then sprints away. Its a little much. You can't use abilities to chase him down because you are silenced AND he just sprinted away. This is also made more annoying by the fact that he looks like a fucking idiot..how the fuck is he silencing anyone? Lmao wtf you don't even know how his fucking abilities work. Garen can't use his speed up if he silenced you, because it puts it back on cooldown.
: Garen, Voli, Gragas, Sion...etc etc. They have better mobility abilities than fighters, except like Riven and Yasuo. They come, in soak up damage and then when the going gets tough they run away like fucking cowards.
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLac71m8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-09T17:09:52.564+0000) > > Garen, Voli, Gragas, Sion...etc etc. They have better mobility abilities than fighters, except like Riven and Yasuo. They come, in soak up damage and then when the going gets tough they run away like fucking cowards. Garen and Volibear are fighters, and they have less mobility than, say, Aatrox. Sion also has less mobility than Aatrox. Holy shit you're clueless.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=TheDarkinLegend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwOWxz1a,comment-id=0002000000000002,timestamp=2016-07-10T19:49:02.119+0000) > > God damn you people are stupid. > > 1)you aren't always goin to be laning against him. There are new players all the time who will be on your team who don't know how to not feed Yas and then, despite your skill, he will stomp your team. > > 2)You aren't going to play perfectly all the time in a team fight no matter how good you are or how well you know the enemies. You will lose track of who used what etc and if the kit is toxic, it will screw you over > > He is a complete bullshit champion. Deal with that. "Yasuo is OP because he can carry if bad players feed him and I'm bad and can't pay attention to who used what abilities waaaaaaaaaaah I'm bad at this game".
: Yasuo is one of my favorite champions
Bruiser Yasuo is fine. He either goes with the Frozen Force build or the PD/BotRK build. The former is lacking in damage against anyone with bulk and sustained damage in general, but is pretty tanky and a good diver, the latter is a good duelist and has great DPS for tanks, but his burst damage is relatively lacking and he is somewhat more fragile.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CerealBoxOfDoom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I1rtGnh4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-06-20T05:10:12.150+0000) > > whats wrong with a 1.1k true damage ult > > You have to have a lot of kills, it clearly tells you who the villain is, and then you also have to lose a bunch of hp for him to deal that much anyways. If you aren't built to fight garen don't go throw face at him then complain after you fail to strategize against something very literally broadcasted. You cant itemize or defend against true damage. His passive, combined with his waveclear and ult, gives him FAR to much power that very few can match up to. Beating a garen in lane is difficult, and because he plays like a tryndamere, if you leave him alone he will push hard and take towers while getting big just because you left him alone.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I1rtGnh4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T05:14:25.107+0000) > > You cant itemize or defend against true damage. > His passive, combined with his waveclear and ult, gives him FAR to much power that very few can match up to. Beating a garen in lane is difficult, and because he plays like a tryndamere, if you leave him alone he will push hard and take towers while getting big just because you left him alone. He's like a Tryndamere who takes turrets much more slowly and is much worse at dueling.
: If there was one change I'd ever make to yasuo, it'd be a very simple one
Alternatively, we could not nerf a champion who doesn't need any nerfs.
Caítlyn (NA)
: What if we made an ability that made half of LoL's roster completely useless?
> [{quoted}](name=Caítlyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i7Zt9fdo,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-10T00:59:42.181+0000) > > And we then gave it to a champion with the highest mobility in the game? > > And its not even an ultimate! > > Balanced? Kalista?
: Darius and garen very easily because true damage executes and nasus can't lifesteal through their armor. Master yi melts him because he is immune to atk speed slows which nasus relies heavily on to beat melee carries. And jax because well jax beats everyone but also because jax can just e whenever he is withered. Im probably forgetting a bunch too
> [{quoted}](name=TheOvermind,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c8M6egNp,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:44:45.966+0000) > > Darius and garen very easily because true damage executes and nasus can't lifesteal through their armor. > Master yi melts him because he is immune to atk speed slows which nasus relies heavily on to beat melee carries. > And jax because well jax beats everyone but also because jax can just e whenever he is withered. > Im probably forgetting a bunch too Of the ones you listed, only a Garen using the Villain mechanic and Master Yi can duel a stacked Nasus.
: > [{quoted}](name=ShadowScorpionX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c8M6egNp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-03T02:47:02.692+0000) > > vayne i tend to agree. because vaynes kit has no ability that has any form of counterplay. the best you can do is throw down a pink ward against her stealth. but that doesnt diminish her duelling potential. the only way to beat a vayne 1v1 is to be able to stat check her. which most champions simply arent by midgame. on the other hand she has plenty tools to ouplay her opponent. a 6 item vayne will beat a 6 item jax or irelia.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c8M6egNp,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:57:27.925+0000) > > i tend to agree. because vaynes kit has no ability that has any form of counterplay. the best you can do is throw down a pink ward against her stealth. but that doesnt diminish her duelling potential. the only way to beat a vayne 1v1 is to be able to stat check her. which most champions simply arent by midgame. > > on the other hand she has plenty tools to ouplay her opponent. a 6 item vayne will beat a 6 item jax or irelia. A six item Jax will nearly one-shot a six item Vayne, while also being immune to her only real damage for much of the fight. He also tends to get quite a bit of armour from his items, as well as a Sterak's Gage, which counters Vayne's silver bolts (shields are the best defense against percent hp true damage). A six item Master Yi can duel Vayne even more easily, since a good Yi can Q her condemn, and is far too fast for her to try kiting. Tryndamere gets five seconds to be completely immune to Vayne's damage, and can kill her in two or three auto attacks. A six item Yasuo is just as mobile as Vayne if not more-so, and if he hits his ult he will kill her in short order. He can also completely no-sell her auto attacks and condemn with wind wall. A six item Rengar will do to Vayne what a six item Rengar does to every bot lane ADC. A six item Olaf will run a six item Vayne down like the degenerate she is. I also am pretty sure a six item full tank Mordekaiser (yes) would be virtually immune to Vayne's damage in a 1v1 and would probably either kill her or force her to flee. Don't get me wrong, Vayne is an extremely good duelist. But she's not unbeatable. Also, why do you so transparently post with an agenda in mine?
: were you there on any of those releases? i dont think you were. im talking about 60% win rate insanity. they got nerfed quickly. stop acting like you are some god player.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fdcuyfAY,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T16:41:49.114+0000) > > were you there on any of those releases? i dont think you were. > im talking about 60% win rate insanity. they got nerfed quickly. > > stop acting like you are some god player. Illaoi had a horrible win rate on release.
: Why Darius is easily my most hated champion in league
> [{quoted}](name=Asome232,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xpKQi6Y7,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-10T06:58:50.123+0000) > > Okay. so keep in mind this is all my opinion and i'm just going on a LONG over due rant. > > Hi, i'm asome232, a gold 5 {{champion:85}} Main i've been playing league for about 3 years now. over the course of this game there have been champs i've had very mixed opinions on. but one champion, one fucking champion that never ceases to earn my scorn is {{champion:122}}. Now for any of you that play champions like {{champion:75}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:78}} this is probably a no brainer why you hate this champs guts. Lets, however assume that everyone is a fucking vayne main and can kite perfectly like our lord and savior Doublelift and they have no idea why Darius is such cancer to play against. Well lucky for you i've condensed my reasoning into 5 easy to understand steps Yasuo is fine against Darius. It's a little hard early on, but Yasuo will outscale Darius. {{item:3046}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3742}} / {{item:3143}} {{item:3102}} / {{item:3065}} A Yas with these items plus fervor of battle or warlord's bloodlust will murder Darius, even if Dar is also full build. > 1. His passive. Just his passive. it makes his level 1 a nightmare, it procs black clever so it it does even more damage as it goes on, BECAUSE it works so well with his passive its the only damage item he's ever gonna need, not to mention since it reduces armor so much and he has built in pen he basically does true damage to you. not to mention the infamous 5 stacks that make him do adc levels of damage. it also means that even if he has no escape, he can just 1v2 cause his passive is contagious. He's pretty good at 1v2ing certain champs, especially with a lead, but frankly if you're having this much trouble as Kennen it's probably you. > 2. his ult. from a simple stat stand point he easily has the best execute in the game, its true damage, it scales better with his passive that straight up ad so you don't even need that much damage to do a lot. then rito in all there grace and glory thought it was a good idea to give him a reset..... okay.... Garen's ult against the Villain is the best execute in the game. It's pretty good though. Perhaps not as good as a five man stun field that can lock down an entire team. > 3. his "counterplay". Darius is a champion that you DON'T want to have extended trades with. ranged or melee, tanky or squishy, its generally not a good idea to get close to him. So how do you outplay his Q? by getting close to him.... wut. His primary weakness is supposed to be getting kited but his range is actually really good for a melee champ and his sticking power is insane with a pull and a slow that doubles as an auto reset so kiting him without any kind of peel can actually be hard in certain match ups. You get close, trade quickly, then disengage if you're playing a melee champ. Use CC to lock him down when you make your escape. Riven for example is very good at doing this. Kennen can also do it with his stun, while also abusing the range advantage. Keep in mind that until his Q goes off you can get free damage on him. Wukong can E>Q>W before Darius can get more than one auto off. > 4. his scaling. There are people who would claim that Darius becomes useless late game. This is false. while he certainly isn't at his best late game darius is plenty useful. he can get picks with his grad, his passive makes him a monster if he can get it off and his Q assures that he'll survive for a long time even if he's not building tanky. True damage never drops off so as long as darius has an R button he will ALWAYS be useful. so unlike other pure cheese champs like {{champion:80}} who really need to snowball in order to be useful, darius doesn't have that issue, he's an early game bully that has the potential to be a late game team fight monster. because why not. Pantheon is a bigger lane bully than Darius is, and has much less counterplay in lane. That's why his fall off is much harsher. > 5. his character. what draws me to a champion in the first place is their design and personality. like {{champion:266}} for instance looks fucking awesome making me want to play him even if he isn't that amazing and {{champion:78}} has an extremely likeable personality. making someone like myself, who doesn't particularly enjoy her style of play, be interested in playing her. Darius however, is just a fucking asshole. He looks like a roided up 40 year old man going through a mid life crisis. his weapon i find to be lacking in any kind of uniqueness overall he's not an interesting character in the slightest. As Darius himself would say: Don't hate the player. Hate yourself. > and a bonus reason, he's in my opinion the easiest champion in the game, cause you do damage while being tanky and just needs to go in. Jesus, what elo do you play in? A Darius that just walks forward to try and get kills is one of the easiest to counter champions in the game. Just fucking peel him and CC him, have your ADC focus him down with their sustained damage and armour pen (though any DPS champ can do this, Master Yi, Tryndamere, Azir, Cassiopiea, etc.). Playing Darius successfully requires far more know-how and finesse than some fuck ass hero like Kenne who just five man stun and zhonya's the enemy team. Getting big fat heals with your Q is real outplay potential. He's possibly the highest skill cap Juggernaut. Certainly more than Garen. > anyway, TLDR, fuck darius, he's an annoying broken mess that i wish was nerfed, gutted and left to drown in a sea of his own blood. Good thing Rito doesn't give a shit what you wish.
: Why Darius is easily my most hated champion in league
It's so surreal to see a Kennen main complaining so loudly about Darius, of all champions. As if your champion isn't one of Darius' single hardest match-ups.
: > [{quoted}](name=am13uegg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:14:02.269+0000) > > {{champion:122}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:92}} > > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:92}} belong exactly to the group of champions the thing is made for. would even go as far saying it wouldnt be a problem on some adc, if it didnt stack with other armor pen items to the point theyre negating more than half of their opponents armor. right now i want them to turn it into a melee only item, to prevent them nerfing it because of adc's.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:15:33.110+0000) > > {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:92}} > > belong exactly to the group of champions the thing is made for. Oh and by the way, who gives a shit if the item was made for these champions? That is not an argument against these champions being too strong with it (it's not, except maybe with Illaoi).
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:03:09.900+0000) > > Was nerfed, and isn't a problem anymore. > > Do you not read patch notes? his laning got nerfed with the reduced range on his q, and his w. not his interaction with cleaver or his ability to just stack it with a load of other armor pen items. so while he gets beat in lane now, the problem itself wasnt fixed.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:06:05.771+0000) > > his laning got nerfed with the reduced range on his q, and his w. not his interaction with cleaver or his ability to just stack it with a load of other armor pen items. > > so while he gets beat in lane now, the problem itself wasnt fixed. Wait, what load of other armour pen items? Youmuu's? Because those are his only armour pen items. And what about Graves? Most Graves players don't even get Black Cleaver, and when they do it's typically their only percentage armour pen item (or even their only armour pen item). So which ADCs save Miss Fortune are buying BC and stacking armour pen?
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:02:19.120+0000) > > Why is this myth still being perpetuated? Darius is hardly a late game hypercarry, but he isn't a win lane lose game champion anymore. He provides enough utility and damage that he scales fine into late game team fights. > > Garen falls off against competent teams, as does Pantheon. darius only doesnt fall off if his team is specifically built around him carrying. if he doesnt get a lot of support, then yea. hes pretty mediocre in teamfights.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:03:47.808+0000) > > darius only doesnt fall off if his team is specifically built around him carrying. if he doesnt get a lot of support, then yea. hes pretty mediocre in teamfights. Really? Name another juggernaut save Skarner (who by the way isn't even a Juggernaut lol rito games) who has as much utility as Darius. Hell, I don't think most fighters have as much utility as Darius. His E, W, and generally very high damage make him a very good peeler, and a strong pick into dive comps.
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:01:02.655+0000) > > It's not a problem on ADCs except for maybe MF. lucian.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-10T18:02:23.152+0000) > > lucian. Was nerfed, and isn't a problem anymore. Do you not read patch notes?
: > [{quoted}](name=am13uegg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:16:42.887+0000) > > Impossible to win lane against the three of them if they know how to play their champs. Total coincidence. you dont have to win against darius and illaoi at the least. you just have to not get destroyed. darius falls off against competent teams, and illaoi falls off even harder. her only strong suit right now is the lane phase. riven is difficult to say as you can only measure her strength on the really good ones.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:18:40.639+0000) > > darius falls off against competent teams Why is this myth still being perpetuated? Darius is hardly a late game hypercarry, but he isn't a win lane lose game champion anymore. He provides enough utility and damage that he scales fine into late game team fights. Garen falls off against competent teams, as does Pantheon.
: > [{quoted}](name=am13uegg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:14:02.269+0000) > > {{champion:122}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:92}} > > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:92}} belong exactly to the group of champions the thing is made for. would even go as far saying it wouldnt be a problem on some adc, if it didnt stack with other armor pen items to the point theyre negating more than half of their opponents armor. right now i want them to turn it into a melee only item, to prevent them nerfing it because of adc's.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kvhqX6OE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T15:15:33.110+0000) > > {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:92}} > > belong exactly to the group of champions the thing is made for. > > would even go as far saying it wouldnt be a problem on some adc, if it didnt stack with other armor pen items to the point theyre negating more than half of their opponents armor. > > right now i want them to turn it into a melee only item, to prevent them nerfing it because of adc's. It's not a problem on ADCs except for maybe MF.
: Been thinking of an on-hit build, peer review?
> [{quoted}](name=Faustavian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYIypGnM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-09T19:00:49.265+0000) > > Alright, so I was thinking of an on-hit build for characters like Koggles and such. > I was thinking along the lines of: > {{item:3115}} > {{item:3020}} > {{item:3091}} > {{item:3124}}/{{item:3153}} > {{item:3124}}/{{item:3153}} > {{item:3085}} > > Any suggestions/criticisms? I'd like to see what you all think of it before I test it out and if there are any good replacements. Get Runaan's earlier into your build. The ability to apply your on-hits to two extra people every auto attack is a huge power spike. Don't get Nashor's Tooth. I'm pretty sure this build would bring you above the attack speed cap, and you won't be getting much value from the Nashor's on-hit because you're not building much AP. Get something like a frozen mallet or muramana instead (or alternatively, just get a defensive item like guardian angel). Get berserker's greaves. Build should get you about 5.0 attack speed when using your W on Kog.
: I actually think this is a good thing. I'd rather bot lane (and all lanes in general) be decided by who plays the laning phase better, not which team gets their midlaner, jungler, and top laner with TP to 5 man dive bot. Flanking should be difficult.
> [{quoted}](name=HazyCloud7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RJleJfA,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-07-10T09:20:22.522+0000) > > I actually think this is a good thing. I'd rather bot lane (and all lanes in general) be decided by who plays the laning phase better, not which team gets their midlaner, jungler, and top laner with TP to 5 man dive bot. > > Flanking should be difficult. Consider how much more important bottom lane is to mid and top past laning phase. The ADC is the most important piece of shit in the game, so helping that little piece of shit get ahead and the enemy piece of shit get behind gives the rest of the team agency in winning the game. Without teleport, top laners would have very little agency in winning the game.
: Champion Relative Height and Weight
> [{quoted}](name=OH NO ITS LU BU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bWawYfgE,comment-id=,timestamp=2014-08-03T23:11:06.441+0000) > > **Cho'Gath**{{champion:31}} > 20ft at zero stacks with a weight of 6-7 tons, 55ft at 6 stacks with a weight of 12-13 tons. Looked at dinosaurs to compare. Cho has to be large enough to eat another champion, so i tried to keep that in mind with even the zero stack Cho Cho'gath growing twice as tall with the same proportions being only about twice the weight as he was is physically impossible. The square-cube law dictates he would have to be eight times heavier.
: I mean, even without facing Veigar she just sucks. Like she's way too counterable. I actually grin when my lane opponent picks Taliyah cause I know I'll win lane.
> [{quoted}](name=HORCHATA LORD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5EnsMFE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-10T17:22:52.391+0000) > > I mean, even without facing Veigar she just sucks. > Like she's way too counterable. I actually grin when my lane opponent picks Taliyah cause I know I'll win lane. You don't play against good Taliyah players.
: Problematic to use as you can save an enemy if you misuse it. In terms of brokenness, the old one was worse but easier to use and didn't have as much decision making.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e6yXf0PE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T00:09:21.242+0000) > > Problematic to use as you can save an enemy if you misuse it. > > In terms of brokenness, the old one was worse but easier to use and didn't have as much decision making. ... So it's a problem because you actually have to have skill to use? Jesus.
: While I like the trinket and pink ward system, I do wonder if riot has forgotten about the player base. > Most reworks are just terrible, and you don't even offer skin refunds when the champion is completely different. These reworks are to remove silences and reduce the number of targeted abilities. Yes. This pisses me off a lot. Riot screws up a number of champs in their reworks. Either because Ryze getting 400,000 reworks, or cass getting 300, or soraka kit is still an issue after her last big rework. Then you've got the little things like the Poppy rework which messed up her Q and gave her a problematic ult.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e6yXf0PE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-09T20:51:58.678+0000) > > While I like the trinket and pink ward system, I do wonder if riot has forgotten about the player base. > > Yes. This pisses me off a lot. Riot screws up a number of champs in their reworks. Either because Ryze getting 400,000 reworks, or cass getting 300, or soraka kit is still an issue after her last big rework. Then you've got the little things like the Poppy rework which messed up her Q and gave her a problematic ult. Are you implying that Poppy's new ult is more problematic than her old one?
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:59:55.315+0000) > > They played badly because they couldn't kite a single enemy Riven and/or engaged in a close fight when the enemy Riven still had tp. Do you think people write down summoner spell timers for no reason? have you actually tried kiting a riven? her entire kit is made to outmaneuver you, not the other way round. after a skirmish on bot lane you cant just assume your allies still have most of their abilities available to deal with her. its funny that youre accusing me of manipulating the scenario to my advantage when youre doing the same. youre the one who proposed a hypothetical situation without any detail put into it. what if my team didnt chose this fight, but the enemy engaged it and they managed to successfully turn it around by outplaying them? this is also a viable situation.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T21:05:14.852+0000) > > have you actually tried kiting a riven? her entire kit is made to outmaneuver you, not the other way round. after a skirmish on bot lane you cant just assume your allies still have most of their abilities available to deal with her. > > its funny that youre accusing me of manipulating the scenario to my advantage when youre doing the same. youre the one who proposed a hypothetical situation without any detail put into it. > > what if my team didnt chose this fight, but the enemy engaged it and they managed to successfully turn it around by outplaying them? Yeah, you have your Janna hit her with her tornado than you walk the fuck away and under your turret. Holy shit that was hard. Also, so what you're saying is that a champion who is for all intents and purposes an assassin can clean up low health targets who have used most of their resources moments prior? Well gee fucking golly, you don't say? Fuck, Garen could probably get a kill or two under those conditions. Only my scenario is all but guaranteed to happen, because all it requires is "someone on the enemy team gets a kill on Garen's teammate". It doesn't even have to be Riven. If it was the Talon mid who gets a kill and suddenly isn't allowed to team fight because Garen will 100-0 him with his huge true damage it's just as bullshit. You came up with some bullshit about Riven literally 1v2ing the enemy bot lane and then tried to say "HOW IS THAT NOT TOXIC WHEN GAREN'S VILLAIN MECHANIC IS!?", ignoring that your stupid ass scenario isn't guaranteed like mine is. It's dependent on so many factors, like the placement of the wards or minions bot lane, the health of your bot lane, the champions in question who are bot lane, what spells they all have up, how close they are to their turret, etc. Then it looks like the enemy team overall played better by coming out ahead, huh? Whether it was deliberate bait on the enemy bot lane's part or not is irrelevant, Riven teleported in at the perfect time to pick up a kill with the resources at her disposal, while also getting bot lane some gold. So the enemy team came out ahead due to overall superior play. Do you understand this? Why do you think it is okay for Garen to punish someone for playing well and getting themselves fed?
: It was a Diamond I on the summoner school Reddit. I asked how to play against Azir, and he said he was immobile. EDIT: I was just saying that it was a Diamond I who said it. I did not say I agreed with him.
> [{quoted}](name=dapcutscene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rud3AQoO,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2016-07-02T21:02:13.333+0000) > > It was a Diamond I on the summoner school Reddit. I asked how to play against Azir, and he said he was immobile. He was a lying piece of shit then.
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:53:17.768+0000) > Why should his team get a safety net for playing badly and dying? how did they play badly? they ganked the enemy lane and won. why should the enemy team have a safety net in form of a champion who can just tp into the general vicinity and then chase her opponents down with 100% certainty and clean them up, snowball off that to the point where she can wreck multiple opponents with almost no support? the mistake youre making here, is in thinking that a tp gank on the rivens part is more difficult to pull off than for garen to beat the riven with the villain mark.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:56:03.373+0000) > > how did they play badly? they ganked the enemy lane and won. why should the enemy team have a safety net in form of a champion who can just tp into the general vicinity and then chase her opponents down with 100% certainty and clean them up? They played badly because they couldn't kite a single enemy Riven and/or engaged in a close fight when the enemy Riven still had tp. Do you think people write down summoner spell timers for no reason? So are you trolling, or are you so clueless that you actually think Riven making a good tp and getting kills for her play is the same as Garen doing jack shit nothing and getting a huge true damage steroid on the person on the enemy team who is actually doing well? Also, you're manipulating the scenario and adding a ton of variables that you can't actually say for certain. It is not, in fact, a 100% certainty that Riven can get kills 1v2 by chasing two low health enemies. It is a 100% certainty that Riven managing to get those kills will make her the villain sooner or later. > the mistake youre making here, is that a tp gank on the rivens part is more difficult than for garen to beat the riven with the villain mark. Clean this sentence up. I have no idea what you're trying to say.
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:30:50.241+0000) > > Source? just look for yourself. its been a while that he posted it. > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:30:50.241+0000) > Let me drop you a little scenario. Imagine you're a little punk ass Riven being beaten in lane by a Garen, but through a good TP play bottom lane you managed to pick up a double kill and now you're back in the game. Only... you are now the Villain, which means that Garen is now doing more damage to you despite the fact that you just gained a significant amount of strength. its funny that you would mention exactly this scenario that is almost common when riven is in a game. because it requires almost no efford on her part to teleport into bot lane and chase down the remaining survivors after **your team** has successfully executed a gank and lived through the fight with little remaining health, and clean them up for a double and triple kill. could the garen pull something like that off? unlikely. he would probably have to burn multiple summoner spells in comparison to catch out maybe 1 or 2 enemies. ive literally seen rivens snowball by tping bot after a lost fight on her team and just chase people down with q and e spam. but what he can do is exactly what you metnioned. keep that riven from snowballing out of control with roams like these. it doesnt make his villain mechanic toxic, but a safety net for his team. and it still doesnt guarantee that the rgaren can outplay the riven even when shes the villain. different champions, different strengths. whos to say rivens ability to clean up fights with almost no efford isnt toxic?
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T20:47:24.071+0000) > > its funny that you would mention exactly this scenario that is almost common when riven is in a game. because it requires almost no efford on her part to teleport into bot lane and chase down the remaining survivors after **your team** has successfully executed a gank and lived through the fight with little remaining health, and clean them up for a double and triple kill. Stop being a fucking butthurt hater, playing Riven inherently takes more effort than playing Garen. She's considerably higher skill cap and far more punishing when you do mess up. Oh, and Riven isn't Olaf. She can't ignore CC and isn't immune to being kited by multiple people. > could the garen pull something like that off? unlikely. he would probably have to burn multiple summoner spells in comparison. but what he can do is exactly what you metnioned. keek that riven from snowballing out of control with roams like these. Maybe not, because Garen's kit is dog shit. > it doesnt make his villain mechanic toxic, but a safety net for his team. Why should his team get a safety net for playing badly and dying? Like, are you actually so delusional and biased you feel that the Riven should be punished for being in the right place at the right time and getting those kills? You are one of the most biased and agenda-driven posters on these boards, which is saying a lot.
: Kassadin. Takes time to get going, can be denied early but after a few items just gets harder to deal with. He is the assassin equivalent of a Nasus where the longer you let them go on the harder it gets.
> [{quoted}](name=Sylverblitz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LmLiiznc,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-01T20:18:58.758+0000) > > Kassadin. Takes time to get going, can be denied early but after a few items just gets harder to deal with. He is the assassin equivalent of a Nasus where the longer you let them go on the harder it gets. He is the assassin equivalent of Yorick actually, which is to say he's a piece of shit deliberately kept from being too good. Oh, and he's not allowed to be good because he's actually cancer by the way. Why do people think the only healthy assassins are the bad ones?
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:53:41.370+0000) > > Then the best Darius in NA is wrong. Darius' win rate has recently spiked significantly, probably because immobile carries are meta again. according to meddler it has spiked due to a bugfix to his pull that made the ability more reliable and allows him to pull people mid dash. also, what you just described fits every juggernaut in the game. slow, team dependent, damage focused. just like marksmen theyre carries who are supposed to rely on the support of their team. only to get into arms length of their opponents instead of staying out of it. compared to many other juggs, hes actually less binary. hes a bit more mobile than darius, illaoi, mundo, or nasus but doesnt have the pentakill potential of the first two. the villain mechanic isnt toxic. it just gives him reliable damage against priority targets. as youve said, he is kitable and has more counterplay than even most marksmen. i mean maybe it would be a good idea to let him chose his own villain. but overall he has a more balanced kit than most competitive champions, since those champions usally rely on some sort of cheese advantage and low counterplay in combination with overtuned numbers to make them this strong. unless you think it would be a good idea to give garen a kit that is as broken as tryndameres, annies, eves or kassadins kit who tend to be either trash or op due to some design flaws in their kit instead of fixing those champions. the question is, is garens kit the problem or are a lot of more competitive champions kits problematic? pro players will always abuse whats strong. but whats strong is not necessarily fair or better designed.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:59:04.250+0000) > > i mean maybe it would be a good idea to let him chose his own villain. but overall he has a more balanced kit than most competitive champions, since those champions usally rely on some sort of cheese advantage and low counterplay in combination with overtuned numbers to make them this strong. Or they have kits that aren't extremely simple and binary piles of shit that only do a single thing. > unless you think it would be a good idea to give garen a kit that is as broken as tryndameres, annies, eves or kassadins kit who tend to be either trash or op due to some design flaws in their kit instead of fixing those champions. Garen's kit is just as broken as all of those champions except Eve's, only in a different way (he is more broken than Tryndamere btw). Those champions' kits have very low counterplay which makes them hard to balance. Garen is more like Katarina or fellow juggernaut Illaoi. His kit has *so much* counterplay that for him to truly be "good" past a certain elo his numbers have to be overbearing. > the question is, is garens kit the problem or are a lot of more competitive champions kits problematic? pro players will always abuse whats strong. but whats strong is not necessarily fair or better designed. Not necessarily, no (Ryze has possibly the most broken kit in the game), but you literally just asked if the problem is Garen, or the much greater number of champions that are actually viable in high level play. The problem is Garen. His kit is good for laning against melee opponents and that is basically it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:53:41.370+0000) > > Then the best Darius in NA is wrong. Darius' win rate has recently spiked significantly, probably because immobile carries are meta again. according to meddler it has spiked due to a bugfix to his pull that made the ability more reliable and allows him to pull people mid dash. also, what you just described fits every juggernaut in the game. slow, team dependent, damage focused. just like marksmen theyre carries who are supposed to rely on the support of their team. only to get into arms length of their opponents instead of staying out of it. compared to many other juggs, hes actually less binary. hes a bit more mobile than darius, illaoi, mundo, or nasus but doesnt have the pentakill potential of the first two. the villain mechanic isnt toxic. it just gives him reliable damage against priority targets. as youve said, he is kitable and has more counterplay than even most marksmen. i mean maybe it would be a good idea to let him chose his own villain. but overall he has a more balanced kit than most competitive champions, since those champions usally rely on some sort of cheese advantage and low counterplay in combination with overtuned numbers to make them this strong. unless you think it would be a good idea to give garen a kit that is as broken as tryndameres, annies, eves or kassadins kit who tend to be either trash or op due to some design flaws in their kit instead of fixing those champions. the question is, is garens kit the problem or are a lot of more competitive champions kits problematic? pro players will always abuse whats strong. but whats strong is not necessarily fair or better designed.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:59:04.250+0000) > > according to meddler it has spiked due to a bugfix to his pull that made the ability more reliable and allows him to pull people mid dash. Source? > also, what you just described fits every juggernaut in the game. slow, team dependent, damage focused. No, I didn't just describe every juggernaut in the game actually. Illaoi has a lot of ranged AOE harass (Garen has small AOE, but is actually punished for utilizing his AOE spell as an AOE spell, and it's hardly ranged) with her Q and her E. Darius can to some extent poke with his Q and has hard CC with his E to either peel for his back line or catch an enemy. Mordekaiser can poke with his E, and indeed is reliant on abusing his range advantage in lane against melee champions to bully them. Skarner has a lot of crowd control. Garen is alone in being completely melee without any hard CC or gap closers. Oh, he also has no combat sustain, which further weakens his team fighting and dueling. > just like marksmen theyre carries who are supposed to rely on the support of their team. only to get into arms length of their opponents instead of staying out of them. Sure, and this has worked well for Darius' design. Garen is a piece of dog shit though. > compared to many other juggs, hes actually less binary. hes a bit more mobile than darius, illaoi, mundo, or nasus but doesnt have the pentakill potential of the first two. First of all, he is frankly less mobile than Dr. Mundo. Mundo's ult gives him a level of stickiness that Garen can't match. Darius actually has utility, along with mechanics in place to allow him to deal with enemy front liners. Garen's sole use is trying to kill enemy squishies, and he either gets on them and kills them, or he doesn't and is kited and possibly killed. The definition of a binary champion. Illaoi is fairly binary, but not to the same extent as Garen. She can at least help poke and siege with her team, while Garen is standing around looking like an asshole while he either waits for his engager to dive or waits for a punk ass enemy Talon to try to dive his carry. Nasus is more versatile than Garen. Nasus is basically the overall best duelist in the game, which makes him a powerful split pusher (compared to Garen, who gets ass stomped by a real duelist like Tryndamere, Trundle, Master Yi, Jax, or, well, Nasus). He's also better in team fights, since he can shut down the enemy ADC's damage, provide AOE damage and an armour shred for his team, and actually deal some damage to an enemy front liner. He's by no means fantastic in team fights, but he's better than Garen. Nasus is binary in the sense that if he was able to stack safely he can have a big impact on the game, and if he doesn't stack safely he'll be useless dog shit. > the villain mechanic isnt toxic. it just gives him reliable damage against priority targets. as youve said, he is kitable and has more counterplay than even most marksmen. Let me drop you a little scenario. Imagine you're a little punk ass Riven being beaten in lane by a Garen, but through a good TP play bottom lane you managed to pick up a double kill and now you're back in the game. Only... you are now the Villain, which means that Garen is now doing more damage to you despite the fact that you just gained a significant amount of strength. Garen's villain mechanic literally punishes you for doing well. It's nothing more than free stats that Garen does literally nothing to earn. Fiora has to build AD to benefit from her true damage, and Vayne has to build attack speed. Garen doesn't have to do a fucking thing for his true damage steroid, which is a problem because if you recall he had a lot of his base damages and shit lowered to compensate for this guaranteed damage. Now, if Garen and his team get ahead it becomes almost impossible to deal with them because any small comeback you make will be squashed by Garen suddenly doing even more damage to you because you had the audacity to successfully catch out his ADC. And if they're behind, then his true damage steroid doesn't mean shit because he's still going to get kited before he can get to the enemy ADC, who probably has the damage to kill him. It's a "win more" mechanic that didn't address Garen's core problems at all, and its inclusion into his kit was a mistake.
Raoul (EUW)
: So... RIOT just forgot about Aatrox?
You people really need to get it into your heads that Aatrox won't be allowed to be strong without a rework. He needs more than buffs, because his kit is inherently shitty and toxic to play against.
: What do you hate most as a support?
: Except Darius, Mundo, Rekenton, and Poppy are really bad right now. (Even the best Darius in NA thinks Darius is bad.)
> [{quoted}](name=HaloDragonX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d00000001,timestamp=2016-07-02T18:53:06.783+0000) > > Except Darius, Mundo, Rekenton, and Poppy are really bad right now. (Even the best Darius in NA thinks Darius is bad.) Then the best Darius in NA is wrong. Darius' win rate has recently spiked significantly, probably because immobile carries are meta again.
Show more

Memeglaive Garen

Level 21 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion