: The bots are ONLY from Twisted Treeline. They were also (as someone has already pointed out) from the Co-op vs AI mode. The problem is that, now that Twisted Treeline is being removed (the one place the bots were practically being harbored), we're going to see a lot of them start to appear in the other game modes more frequently. It's funny, though, because it's really not like none of us saw this coming.
>Tencent >Care about bots Pick one and Only one.
: "What do you do as a toplaner when you get ganked?"-A tierlist.
Garen to : Walks out because neither one wants to be the first one in.
: > [{quoted}](name=AquariusGine,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c640my5x,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-21T13:49:43.536+0000) > > Also the reason why I don't pay attention to LCS anymore; fights are too unpredictable. You can't objectively determine which team is more skilled because the margin for human error is too large. Say a player is jetlagged or feeling slightly feverish that day, and therefore their reaction time is slightly off, could you confidently say that they are truly the worse player/ team? > > A single slip of the finger shouldn't be the deciding factor between a win and loss. That's just Overwatch/ Fortnite and we know how those turned out. > > Not saying League should be like Dota2, that game has a learning curve that is too steep for casual players. Nonetheless, the old League had a nice balance. It wasn't perfect but it was certaintly respectable in terms of depth and strategy. the only reason people think dota 2 is hard is because of the courier and having to buy scrolls (can use them anywhere to tp to the base or a lane). it really isn't complicated. Tons of strats and playstyles work, and the game is never over even when behind a lot of gold, because the champions have a ton of outplay potential if the enemy team gets cocky. Items dont just make your character a god, there are counter items. Despite not playing Dota in 2 years, I still have muscle memory and know which keys to press for the courier controls with only 1-2 months of playing. People just never gave dota 2 a fair shot and just stop playing after 5 games.
Thats because Dota heros, even the benchwarmers are still BEST at something. For years omniknight was widely unused despite having a targeted bulk heal that also damaged shit around your target for true damage, an anti-magic shield. (Think morgana shield) an aura that just applied a slow debuff to anything near him, and an ult that could make your entire team immune to physical damage. And he was garbage, at least until he turned up in a pocket strategy and completely countered a team comp. Thats what makes Dota fun, every game has its toolbox top tier you're going to see alot. But dota's pocket picks are where everyone goes crazy, because those heroes who aren't considered Meta due to niche strengths or being too difficult to get going can still absolutely take over a game and change it just at a glance. Alot of people say Dota is won/lost in your drafting phase, which I think is hyperbole, but it absolutely has more to think about then league.
AdamrCc (EUW)
: I hope not. I couldn't give a shit about Katarina ending up with Garen. I'm going to be honest, Garen is one of the most boring characters in both lore and ingame. I don't want to read another story with him in it.
GOOD GUYS SUCK EDGELORDS RULE RIGHT BROS? ANTIESTABLISHMENT AL THE WAAAAAY
Cdore (NA)
: Remember when League was a game made for American and European audiences?
Match this with tencent pulling a power play within china where they basically held their game catalogs hostage if lan centers carried Dota 2 in China as well. Funny since league is a game made on stolen dota champ forum concepts that pendragon looted.
Moody P (NA)
: The flaws in the item system are the root of most problems
This is the end result of balancing around the position rather then the kit itself. Dota 2 has always done this better, and riot's designed themselves into such a corner now it can never be unfucked short a new game I feel. It started when they started designing around flash instead of just nerfing flash. Now, years later...
: > [{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mq6EX9Nx,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-11-07T15:12:58.854+0000) > > IKR, its almost as if the majority of the community didn't play TT due to it not counting for anything, and having no updates/balances. If they put HALF the effort into it as they are into TFT it would be an awesome mode with a-lot higher player base. > > The same can be said with Dominion before it was removed. For years, literally years the best way to get IP and XP was to play TT. TT was the best rewards, it counted for the MOST of anything. Nobody played it cause the mode sucks and nothing Riot can do will change that.
Or you know, remove the bots, that were never, ever, addressed. People quit playing TT because it was a nomans land that riot refused to police. Kinda like Dominan, they just didn't give a fuck. They still don't, unless tencent tells them specifically what to give a fuck about.
: >They were never 1 shotting, everyone had enough roam to survive. lol Go back and watch some season 4 games and you'll see plenty of people getting oneshot by DFG. In fact it was disgustingly easy to oneshot people, champions like Leblanc could kill you with just DFG-Q-R, never needing to use W or E for the damage. W was almost always used for mobility since you never needed the damage. And you could play cheesy shit like "support" Annie and "support" trist(AP) and 100-0 people as soon as you got DFG. Legit just delete them in 0.5 seconds. And AP Malphite is not a new thing, it was played professionally even. https://youtu.be/gVwQcxglTzo?t=31
>Maybe if I cherrypick the "Zed Meta Season" I can convince people that burst damage is the way to go! Season 2-3 remain the most balanced the game has ever been even at the height of metagolem. Cope more.
: they got that CertainlyT syndrome
I blame the player base for not putting their foot down on Certrainly3 when this shit started. Yes, its fun to play bloated, overpowered kits, but its also cancer.
: "Senna is just gonna be an ADC!" - Debunking the Myth
Is teal the color they assigned for "Riot minister of propaganda?" I see these threads increasingly used for marketing purposes.
: Clearly Riot agreed with me as they nerfed Garen directly because he was overtuned... Sure a Vel'Koz can body Garen if he can land his skill shots, but miss your E and you're basically fucked. Garen can purge the slow on your Q and if he can get on top of you, you're pretty much fucked.
a 4 base damage on spin slap seems more like a bit of kibble thrown to appease the whining mass rather then any real attempt to nerf the character. Likely done more for PR purposes then any intention of actually changing balance. Garen won't even approach you without Q unless you the player decide to fall asleep or he blows flash. In lane a flash combo won't 100-0 you, and if you let him walk up to you... well... one could argue MORDE is super scary too if you just facetank him and never kite. :V
KipröBT7 (EUNE)
: Garen
almost like their internal numbers don't reflect the boards collective whining and they threw you a bit of kibble so you'll sod off.
: The position name is called "Bot" by players, casters and devs. ADC and Marksman is the same thing.
"Marksmen" came around when riot was trying to convince gullible idiots that the fact ranged adc's were dominating the meta season after season was "by design" instead of due to their own ineptitude. Once they actually succeeded after many... many attempts to make a handful of viable melee ADC's, the term is dated, and should be reverted to "Ranged ADC"
: I find funny that Ashe have more win ratio and pick ratio than Garen and she is as easy as him
reminds me of the juggernaut patch, everyone squealing about garen when everyone with half a brain was like "Darius and Morde are going to define worlds Riots internal data likely already supports the fact that Garen's winrate is on the way back down in higher ranks now that people have adjusted to him, and this base spin damage nerf is basically there to placate you and avoid nerfing him back into oblivion.
: Riot Wasted their Rework for Fiddle...
Riot reworks generally miss the mark of champ flavor. See the removal of Garens punch during his original rework, which nobody asked for, but riot felt needed to go for 'realism reasons' next to the armored bear and flying old man who throws clocks at you.
: I don't understand the "low effort" rule
Mods will remove anything that bothers them personally and will hide behind vague rules such as those to cover themselves. Whatever canned response they're going to give you is ultimately a load. This is the truth of the matter.
: What? The entire reason Shaco is currently a problem is because he can gank bot at level 3 while folk are barely have their first level or something akin. Lowering 20 seconds off Shaco's boxes (Which is huge) means he can't stack as many boxes for his beginning clears, which forces him to spend more time actually clearing. It addresses the entire problem that's been actually happening. > Riot is so out of touch they won't outright gut Wow, it's almost like they're choosing to try to not gut them, because people don't like having their favorite champs gutted. God Forbid Riot try to nerf them into a manageable state instead.
So you're saying a heavily predictable moment of power is worth heavily nerfing a character who has not been competitive in some time? How about you just... I dunno, adjust your lvl 1 play to account for the fact that a highly telegraphed gank timing is happening? Nah, fuck that. Nerf him into the ground, I bet he doesn't even have skins coming.
Infernape (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=0009000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-18T23:28:17.748+0000) > > I do in fact. In fact Garens Q is and its notorious animation lock are what make velkoz knockup an extremely reliable answer. > > Are you aware that Q's got one of the longest animation times of any "On hit" skill in the game? If you're not asleep it is trivial to set up A knockback to his Q's animation starting, if you're actually on point you can react to flash Q. > > Ironic, you reveal how little you actually know about Garens interactions in the top lane by attempting to call me out on it. You may want to actually play the lane... even if just ONCE. before you attempt armchair commentary friendarino. Are you aware that his Q animation now scales with his AS like every other AA reset?
A factor that has no impact during the laning phase, and even with scaling, only reaches "acceptable" speed, its base animation remains laughable. Its like saying blitzcrank's sludgelike autos aren't slow because they can scale with attack speed :^)
YambrinZ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=WBdUEzih,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2019-10-18T23:39:05.808+0000) > > Our region has better things to do then play videogames for money. > > our region MAKES the games that gullible idiots play to try and scrimp a living. You realize China owns Riot games right?
Thats generally what you do with a game NA makes. You purchase it. And then we make the replacement. Thanks valued customer.
: Can we please have a dynamic meta again?
League doesn't profit from a balanced game, they profit from releasing powercrept garbage and overbuffing shit that has skins on the way. they've had what, 7 seasons now since Season 3? And the game still isn't as well balanced as it was during the prime metagolem days. I'm convinced all their devs of any quality have burnt out on moved on to other companies, and they're in the blizzard spin, where all their employees are marks for the company and up their own backsides.
: I am ashamed of our region (huge rant)
Our region has better things to do then play videogames for money. our region MAKES the games that gullible idiots play to try and scrimp a living.
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-10-15T19:44:00.217+0000) > > Sounds like a general lack of how to play against Garen. likely due to the fact he's been a joke for so long. > > A Velkoz matches up better against Garen top then any of those characters. Its literally a free lane, and even better its a lane that can keep up casually with his waveclear *and* farm at extreme range if jungler camps top. > > Whats he going to do? pressure you? Q animation locks him meaning you will always land knockup if he reaches you, and to even reach you he has to not eat Q, and if he does reach you you still get a positive trade thanks to knockup + w. > > People just need to actually come out of their meta-robopicking. You realize that Garen's Q has a silence, meaning that if he does reach you you won't be able to knock him back, right?
I do in fact. In fact Garens Q is and its notorious animation lock are what make velkoz knockup an extremely reliable answer. Are you aware that Q's got one of the longest animation times of any "On hit" skill in the game? If you're not asleep it is trivial to set up A knockback to his Q's animation starting, if you're actually on point you can react to flash Q. Ironic, you reveal how little you actually know about Garens interactions in the top lane by attempting to call me out on it. You may want to actually play the lane... even if just ONCE. before you attempt armchair commentary friendarino.
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T20:15:50.832+0000) > > Factually incorrect. > > Velkoz also takes phase rush, and can proc it more reliably then you can. > > Adaptive helm? Worthless. This isn't teemo toxic shot, he'd get more bang for his buck out of Spirit visage. If I ult him he's taking true damage. This in itself tells me you didn't think about this matchup at all before knee jerk posting. > > Merc Treads? Doesn't prevent me from pealing on knockup. (They try that very thing with flash Q alot, but what you forget is the knock up is also a knock back. Likely an oversight on your part due to matchup inexperience.) > > Boots + Phage is not enough to let him close distance without flash, or does it give him the damage to put you down if you have equal or greater income, which you will because you have complete lane control until that point. You can survive his all in with an incomplete rod of ages. His W gives him 60% tenacity on yours knockback just on its own, without counting the tenacity from using ghost and flash. You also don't seem to have experience on this match up, because predator is also another option you won't be outrunning and one riste, the highest ranekd Garen player takes often against ranged match ups. The adaptive helm mitigates all but your true damage proc; spirit visage is worthless on Garen since he does not heal and thus a large part of the item's budget is wasted on him. You also appear to have completely ignored the part where Garen builds mercurial scimitar.
Velkoz's cooldowns are long enough that you're only getting value from adaptive on W, which isn't significant damage to any of my combos, which are mostly Q/True damage proc, or a completely true damage ult. >spirit visage is worthless on Garen since he does not heal and thus a large part of the item's budget is wasted on him. ... you are aware spirit visage effects garens regen correct? the regen which is central to your lane sustain? The best counter you have against a poke playstyle? You've made painfully clear your lack of game knowledge, why try to offer discussion on a topic you clearly have no knowledge of?
TehNACHO (NA)
: >His W gives him 60% tenacity on yours knockback just on its own, without counting the tenacity from using ghost and flash. There's so much wrong with this sentence lmao
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T20:15:50.832+0000) > > Factually incorrect. > > Velkoz also takes phase rush, and can proc it more reliably then you can. > > Adaptive helm? Worthless. This isn't teemo toxic shot, he'd get more bang for his buck out of Spirit visage. If I ult him he's taking true damage. This in itself tells me you didn't think about this matchup at all before knee jerk posting. > > Merc Treads? Doesn't prevent me from pealing on knockup. (They try that very thing with flash Q alot, but what you forget is the knock up is also a knock back. Likely an oversight on your part due to matchup inexperience.) > > Boots + Phage is not enough to let him close distance without flash, or does it give him the damage to put you down if you have equal or greater income, which you will because you have complete lane control until that point. You can survive his all in with an incomplete rod of ages. Velkoz into garen top, if a jg have half a brain because u most likely gonna push him under turret, ur gonna die over and over and over. Better pick is ahri btw if u gonna cheese it that way lmao, but tbh good darius > garen.
Velkoz can farm from much longer and safer ranges then most top lane answers to Garen. Odd you'd mention darius in his place, who is FAR more vulnerable to ganking then Velkoz is.
: > [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-10-15T19:44:00.217+0000) > > Sounds like a general lack of how to play against Garen. likely due to the fact he's been a joke for so long. > > A Velkoz matches up better against Garen top then any of those characters. Its literally a free lane, and even better its a lane that can keep up casually with his waveclear *and* farm at extreme range if jungler camps top. > > Whats he going to do? pressure you? Q animation locks him meaning you will always land knockup if he reaches you, and to even reach you he has to not eat Q, and if he does reach you you still get a positive trade thanks to knockup + w. > > People just need to actually come out of their meta-robopicking. Not really. If the Garen has a brain he'll run Ghost, rush merc threads+phage, and take phase rush. All he has to do is W your knockup and it will give him enough ability to not be peelable by you. By the time he gets adaptive helm (which is what he should be getting straight after triforce+ mercs), he will not die to you ever again and you won't be able to keep up lane against him. People keep acting as if Garen is hard countered by anything but Vayne. He isn't. If he builds and chooses runes correctly he just plays safe with doran's shield till boots and phage and then takes over any ranged lane match up that isn't Vayne or Gnar. It is far more effective to take something like a Trundle or Darius into him. Even Illaoi does well into him. Karma is another possible bully but, again, once he gets mercs and starts building adaptive warhelm and gets mercurial scimitar she loses control of the lane.
Factually incorrect. Velkoz also takes phase rush, and can proc it more reliably then you can. Adaptive helm? Worthless. This isn't teemo toxic shot, he'd get more bang for his buck out of Spirit visage. If I ult him he's taking true damage. This in itself tells me you didn't think about this matchup at all before knee jerk posting. Merc Treads? Doesn't prevent me from pealing on knockup. (They try that very thing with flash Q alot, but what you forget is the knock up is also a knock back. Likely an oversight on your part due to matchup inexperience.) Boots + Phage is not enough to let him close distance without flash, or does it give him the damage to put you down if you have equal or greater income, which you will because you have complete lane control until that point. You can survive his all in with an incomplete rod of ages.
Zeyphel (NA)
: ***
Because high level play is notoriously flavor of the month, and this community's go-to mode is to squeal for nerfs instead of explore counterpick options? (This is why Dota remains a better tournament game) Granted Riot does their fair share of shitting in the soup. Kinda like Veigar had his legs broken as an anti-lee/zed support when he trended. Or Malz was reworked into an enormous balance headache for the high crime of having a favorable matchup vs Zed during the zed meta.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Is Vladimir a pro problem? Aatrox was too much of a safe lane bully, that's why he got gutted. Vladimir can be destroyed in lane, and takes at least 2 items to be somewhat threatening. If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially
Replace vlad with Garen. Then look at the forums. Then ask yourself "Should I ever listen to the forums?"
: Senna Being the Next Champ is the Perfect 10th Anniversery Champion
The perfect champion for 10th would be to dig out the old Dota forums from Pendragon and toss one of the character concepts into the game wholesale. Really remind everyone where the game came from. :D
: He don't hates him, he has simply given up on defending him for his actions. That doesn't mean Garen would stabb Taric if he goes back to Demacia. Also i love people disliking, like you can't have ideas and share your toughts, you must think like the majority... so stupid but np.
not only that, the original order to climb the mountain was a way of imposing exile instead of execution on Taric, Taric knew this and respected his friend's choice instead of dishonoring himself by fleeing. Hence why Taric Greets him so warmly in his character interactions compared to say, J4. Garen did everything he could to protect his friend, inside of what his laws allowed and Taric respects him greatly for it. Bromance, but no, not Romance.
: Garen's winrate is not THAT high, and people are right about low elo skewing it. THAT BEING SAID, Plat+ still showcases a 53.5% winrate with a 13% winrate, so Garen is definitely a problem, especially when out of the 3 best counterpicks, which are Kayle, Quinn, and Vayne, only Kayle has a positive winrate against Garen. Every other champion has a negative winrate against him.
Sounds like a general lack of how to play against Garen. likely due to the fact he's been a joke for so long. A Velkoz matches up better against Garen top then any of those characters. Its literally a free lane, and even better its a lane that can keep up casually with his waveclear *and* farm at extreme range if jungler camps top. Whats he going to do? pressure you? Q animation locks him meaning you will always land knockup if he reaches you, and to even reach you he has to not eat Q, and if he does reach you you still get a positive trade thanks to knockup + w. People just need to actually come out of their meta-robopicking.
: I have yet to see where Garen loses post level 2...
A top lane velkoz can comfortably body him in lane. Anything with spacial control is still a free lane. I think you just need to actually play the game instead of read the forums.
: > #LeaveGarenAlone Play something that is supposed to win into Garen and see how long you have fun. There is almost nothing that can hold a candle to him early. (Maybe Fiora but that's really it.)
He still loses early to all his counters. Rek can still dictate every trade, control the duration of the trade, and space back out of the trade before you get to really do anything, while having better sustain then you. In fact, your chin is even softer now then it was before. You lose these trades even worse, people just actually have to learn to play against Garen again instead of just casually disrespecting his early game.
: That Garen R changes doesn't seems to be...healthy.
Weaker then cho's ult. Less sustain in lane then cho even now Less inherent tankiness then cho. Has to commit harder to a trade then cho No ranged harass, unlike cho. Why aren't you complaining about top lane cho friend?
: new garen might be a tab bit strong
Neat, you played 2 norms and won against people who are likely not used to his new damage thershholds. Take him into ranked. Don't be a wimp. Prove your point.
: Revert Garen
Please revert this champion back into obscurity and ranked nonexistance, he bullied me in a normal and I don't know how to use my Mobility to escape his incredibly long Q animation on reaction.
: PBE is under maintenance which is probably taking up some of the left over staff who aren't focused on worlds... https://status.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/#pbe Network Operations – 9:06 AM The platform is currently unavailable while we perform emergency maintenance. Network Operations – 8:07 AM We are aware of games failing to start and we are working on a fix.
The message is clear, if you're not Esports dollars or doing their QA for them then you don't deserve their attention.
: If you don't want to ban a champion, because you're such an "alpha male", ban something for an ally.
Friendly reminder you'll get a post removed for telling someone to stay in school with a warning, but posts like this get to stay up. If riot actually needs someone to train their staff I'd be happy to.
Lost R (NA)
: First Amendment rights don't protect you from privately owned companies.
You'll always find something to be offended by. Outrage culture is its own reward to people. You'll find new slights regardless how minor to base your identity around. Appeasing you really doesn't solve anything but kick the can down the road, and make the pendulum swing back to the other extreme that much more intense when it does happen. Perhaps its you who should do some reading in school friend, since you seem inclined to see history repeat.
: I mean, I'm a Support main and in my original server I loved to play Blitz. But this is beyond "I play/main this Champ so 'stfu' Blitz is perfect". I'm really trying to understand the... justice behind this. Seems super random in so many ways.
Because blitzcranks just a worse/less power crept version of the other hook champs, so they gave him 100 more range on his hook to make him the premiere "shit yourself when hooked" character. Have you considered warding, or you know, just punishing the fuck out of him when he misses?
: But they don't. At no point in League's history have all the champions been viable in high level play. It just isn't necessary for the game to be successful. Not every player is interested in playing at a high level. Some people connect to champions based on look, or theme, or a game play style. It matters less to them that they are "good", and are still willing to play those champions. And most people (at least in my experience) don't stick with the one champion they started playing with. Garen was one of my first champions. I don't play him anymore, but that's okay. The time I spent playing him wasn't a waste because League is a complex game, and having Garen be as simple as, "Spin to win", helped me focus on learning the game as a whole because I wasn't trying to learn how the character worked best at the same time. The game needs champions like that or it won't be able to get new players to stick around long enough to get invested. I'm not against Garen getting a rework. If Riot figures something out for him that works, it's fine with me. My point is that Riot likely isn't prioritizing a rework right now, because Garen is meeting the expectations they have for him as a character.
This is why your game remains a competitive joke compared to Dota. A design philosophy and a playerbase that thinks like this.
: Jarven is doing what the nazi did to the jews just saying. Gathering up ppl not doing anything yet then suddenly find out millions were murdered.
a curious parallel, since the failed communist revolution of post WW1 germany was the kindling that allowed for the easy blame of the jews for the problems of the german state, given that it was largely lead by them. (they don't put *that* front and center in ye olde hard left leaning education these days however) Art mimics history I suppose.
: People have scores like this and then tell me not to surrender.
Remember kids if you have a bad first half just don't finish the game. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} Giving up to save yourself the frustration of a defeat is infinitely better then putting your best effort forward to the very end.
: > [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WkstqpKR,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-06-28T03:23:24.910+0000) > > Using due sarcasm is hardly harassment or disrespect. To be frank they're giving as much respect as some of you are due. > What is your definition of harassement? My definition is the one the mods use.
When a mod gets snarky like they have no concern for their job, just assume they're part of a protected class you can't possibly report to HR. Minority hire, Trans/gay worker. Etc. They're basically untouchable in modern industry.
: Zed's ability looks lame
Spamming Shuriken to win lane is like 90% of zeds gimmick though :V
: > [{quoted}](name=Keirm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OkEY8xXY,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-23T19:10:53.037+0000) > > What are the reasons he's NEVER used in pro play? What’s the reason fiddlesticks is never seen in pro play Or heimerdonger Or illaoi Or kayn Or master yi Or pantheon Or soraka Or wu Kong Or warwic Or yoric Not seeing pro play isn’t garen exclusive. :/ Also. Pro play is not relevant. You are not a pro. I am not a pro. No one on these boards is even close to being a pro.
most of what you've listed has been at some point broken in pro play in the last few seasons. Just saiyan.
: I disagree. It's not because Jarvan have been strong in Jungle, that he is fine. It's not because you can win with a champ that he is fine. He is problematic because lethality stuff make him overpowered and without counterplay (that why he was almost King of the jungle, because of this stuff ! How many Jarvan where building this a few months ago ?) . He can easy reach backline and delete it with this build. While he isnt supposed to be like that because he is rated as a tank. But he is bad at tanking because the shield is so low, he can barely survive, even with a tank build. For me, there is a problem with the champ, his identity is to be a tank/fighter and we have an assassin. If he is strong in a role that he shouldnt have, then it's a problem no ? What do you think of Taliyah jungle ? It's was problematic. This is the same way. Garen is a starter champ yes, but that does not mean he should be weak and coherence. You are playing a commander and you don't have allies interactions... You are early but you have late upgrades like E, W and passive... He is the worst Juggernaut (if we exclude Mordekaiser but Mordekaiser is going to be rework so). Garen is fine for starters players but i'm sure we can add more complexcity and make him interessing and less boring. Every champ need to have love. And i'm sure we can keep the "easy side" of Garen but make him more powerful and more coherent about his personnality, his job, his lore...
all the issues you describe for jarvan are present and worse in Camille.
: {{champion:59}} Has had numerous periods where he's been a nightmarishly strong jungler. In fact he was recently nerfed for being noticeably above the power curve and having a disproportionate representation, despite not quite being THE king of the jungle. {{champion:86}} Is supposed to be a 'starter' champ. He has clear strengths and weaknesses, and sacrifices some depth & playmaking for simplicity and consistency. They're both fine.
>Starter Character I hate this excuse. Dota2 manages to keep its simple kits competitive with more complex kits. League leans on this crutch to the point of breaking. Do not excuse poor balance design for "accessibility"
: > [{quoted}](name=Bakm2,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=FFfvGRkM,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-06-26T23:17:43.595+0000) > > Actually it's my 2nd Autochess Game. I played Dota Underlords as I was watching streamers play TFT in the PBE. Underlords is actually pretty good (imo). > > And the way they handle items is it's always guaranteed from NPC mobs. The catch is if you win the NPC fight you get a choice between 3 items, but if you lose the NPC fight it takes away 2 of your choices and leaves you with just the one. So Underlords actually has the most different item system compared to DAC and TFT. It automatically gives you an item no matter the round and lets you choose between 1 of 3 if you win. It's probably the largest/most different aspect of Underlords, which is otherwise just DAC with a different coat of paint.
Shame underlords is wretchedly balanced from the character standpoint, so ultimately your items mean very little compared to what you get in your rng character draft.
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MetalGearTeemo

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