: wait what's with all the nature things if she's not a jungler
> [{quoted}](name=Sex Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAvngqZa,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2019-06-11T00:03:30.608+0000) > > wait what's with all the nature things if she's not a jungler Just her lore. Neeko is from the same general region and she also isnt a jungler afterall.
CD8 (NA)
: Anyone else find it odd that Qiyana is AD?
I mean, this isnt new to her, look over all the prior champs in the game and think about the fact that they are ad/ap. Not to mention some weird things like considering that most technology in the game (Viktor/Heimerdinger) are 'AP' yet you wouldnt call that magic.
: probably because most ap junglers suck butt. there's like 2 semi usable ones that strictly build ap
> [{quoted}](name=Sex Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAvngqZa,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-10T13:29:11.467+0000) > > probably because most ap junglers suck butt. there's like 2 semi usable ones that strictly build ap She isnt a jungler though.
: Not to mention this is just Fiora's old ult that they decided to not implement because it "would be problematic to just have Fiora pick the weakest champion out and 1v1 that one". I get that Morde is incentivized to pick stronger champs for more stats, but why do that when you could just pick the support with teamfight changing abilities, like Rakan?
> [{quoted}](name=Worst Summoner,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=kFEngZni,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-02T14:18:33.613+0000) > > Not to mention this is just Fiora's old ult that they decided to not implement because it "would be problematic to just have Fiora pick the weakest champion out and 1v1 that one". > > I get that Morde is incentivized to pick stronger champs for more stats, but why do that when you could just pick the support with teamfight changing abilities, like Rakan? I mean, the main difference here is why they decided it was okay for Morde, is that he is slow and can be kited in his ult, while Fiora will stick to you in that small a space just fine.
Kelg (NA)
: The only problem i have with his lore is that(unless I read it wrong) it seems like Morde died of old age? That's kinda lame(and not very metal) compared to how he died before(him going out fighting an army on a pile of his dead enemies). tbh if you kept the death realm stuff from the new lore, and the way he died from the old lore it would be perfect.
> [{quoted}](name=Kelg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=GuvErsoT,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-05-30T08:21:49.946+0000) > > The only problem i have with his lore is that(unless I read it wrong) it seems like Morde died of old age? That's kinda lame(and not very metal) compared to how he died before(him going out fighting an army on a pile of his dead enemies). > > tbh if you kept the death realm stuff from the new lore, and the way he died from the old lore it would be perfect. Absolutely this. I adore his new alot, and don't mind the retconing, but I liked the angle of him being killed on a mountain of corpses and felt revenge could have been had as being one of the motivations for him to will himself out of limbo.
: So where is malcious metal ?
He is extremely happy with the rework, and happier still that most Morde mains seem to love it with him. He has said a couple of things on the reddit, but has mostly been hanging out in the Morde discord, where we also were talking with a couple of rioters we had on there.
: Am I the only one that expected the shiny lights to be more blueish instead of green?
> [{quoted}](name=Camille Ferrøs,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Exh5EHGz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:26:14.710+0000) > > Am I the only one that expected the shiny lights to be more blueish instead of green? No, definitely not just you. Especially considering the blue on his split emote.
: legendary skin for AATROX pls
I still want Thunder Lord Aatrox, that art of it is so sick.
: It's insane to me that Diamond was so much easier to get than climbing out of silver.
I am nearly at Plat and it has been smooth sailing through Gold. This despite being always a silver player because I simply could not get out of that hell, and spent last season unable to get past silver 1. I am shocked at the fact that Gold legitimately feels much easier then Silver.
Míellá (NA)
: What house did you join?
I like tanks, I never surrender, and cool team wombo combos are my favorite part of the game. Take a guess.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tremaursen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEtE3Kkl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-05-03T08:05:50.201+0000) > > trying to make the morality of classic League good and evil more complex than it has to be, muddling classic concepts into a messy grey area. They are also EXTREMELY stubborn about this position. I remember one Rioter whike defending this position tried to argue that Darth Vader was not truly, only and objectively evil. This got really annoying with the Kayle and Morg reworked lore. I strongly disagree with your position. Anyone who has any shred of worldly experience would know that good and evil are not a simple dichotomous concepts. Good and evil are points of view that exist as abstractions within the human mind. Hitler considered it evil to allow, what he viewed as inferior humans, to live and we viewed his efforts to exterminate them as evil. So the question becomes, who was right? We consider him evil because our point of view won but if Hitler had won, today it would have probably been considered a good thing to kill Jews. We would be celebrating the Holocaust in the same manner Americans celebrate independence day. Think about the Jim Crow days in America. Do you think Amercans considered segregation evil? Slavery was also once legal in the US. Do you think the people of the day considered it evil? Good and evil are not black and white. Evil people don't see themselves as evil. The only evil people are sociopathic serial killers and they are rare. Riots stance on the concept of evil is the right way to go. Nobody is evil for the sake of being evil. They have their own motivations for their actions which they see as just.
> [{quoted}](name=FioraWillCarry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEtE3Kkl,comment-id=00040003,timestamp=2019-05-03T18:06:57.790+0000) > > I strongly disagree with your position. Anyone who has any shred of worldly experience would know that good and evil are not a simple dichotomous concepts. Good and evil are points of view that exist as abstractions within the human mind. Hitler considered it evil to allow, what he viewed as inferior humans, to live and we viewed his efforts to exterminate them as evil. So the question becomes, who was right? We consider him evil because our point of view won but if Hitler had won, today it would have probably been considered a good thing to kill Jews. We would be celebrating the Holocaust in the same manner Americans celebrate independence day. Think about the Jim Crow days in America. Do you think Amercans considered segregation evil? Slavery was also once legal in the US. Do you think the people of the day considered it evil? > > Good and evil are not black and white. Evil people don't see themselves as evil. The only evil people are sociopathic serial killers and they are rare. Riots stance on the concept of evil is the right way to go. Nobody is evil for the sake of being evil. They have their own motivations for their actions which they see as just. I generally agree with everything you just said. However I would posit that there is a second group of actually evil people along side serial killers. A group which is generally universally decried as bad in all cultures and for good reason. People who are so selfish, they make others suffer for their benefit.
: His kit seems hopeful, what I'm worried about is his lore. Riot's writing team is going through a "no true good, no true evil" phase, trying to make the morality of classic League good and evil more complex than it has to be, muddling classic concepts into a messy grey area. They are also EXTREMELY stubborn about this position. I remember one Rioter whike defending this position tried to argue that Darth Vader was not truly, only and objectively evil. This got really annoying with the Kayle and Morg reworked lore. I like Mord for being almost comically evil, the chaotic evil character you run in DnD without a care in the world. Sometimes it's more fun to keep it that simple. Mord doesn't need an axcuse or deeper reasoning to be evil, hell his concept thrives on being evil for the sake of evil. And this is fine, it's ok to have some characters like this. Sometimes I do want to play grounded, relatable champions with complex moral ambiguity, but sometimes I want to play a champ with massive tits, and sometimes I just want to play as the bad guy. League has room for it all, and I don't want to see the genuin fun of roleplaying evil be stripped away.
> [{quoted}](name=Tremaursen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEtE3Kkl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-05-03T08:05:50.201+0000) > > His kit seems hopeful, what I'm worried about is his lore. Riot's writing team is going through a "no true good, no true evil" phase, trying to make the morality of classic League good and evil more complex than it has to be, muddling classic concepts into a messy grey area. They are also EXTREMELY stubborn about this position. I remember one Rioter whike defending this position tried to argue that Darth Vader was not truly, only and objectively evil. This got really annoying with the Kayle and Morg reworked lore. > > I like Mord for being almost comically evil, the chaotic evil character you run in DnD without a care in the world. Sometimes it's more fun to keep it that simple. Mord doesn't need an axcuse or deeper reasoning to be evil, hell his concept thrives on being evil for the sake of evil. And this is fine, it's ok to have some characters like this. Sometimes I do want to play grounded, relatable champions with complex moral ambiguity, but sometimes I want to play a champ with massive tits, and sometimes I just want to play as the bad guy. League has room for it all, and I don't want to see the genuin fun of roleplaying evil be stripped away. (Skip to the last block of text if you just want to read my opinion on Morde specifically) I am sorry, but there is just soo much nope here. First off, a 'phase'? Could you possibly make that more demeaning? It's a literature direction and a direction to world building, one that is far from unique to League. I am sorry if you dont like the shift, I really am, I have certainly been there with a universe being shifted away from what I liked from it. But it is a legitimate choice with merit, plenty of people do not like classic stories of good versus evil, plenty of people myself included would argue against the existence 'true' evil. Explaining why someone does the things they do does not prevent them from ultimately doing bad things, Lissandra is constantly used as an example of a ruined character by this new direction. But her prior motivation of just wanting to bring the end times doesmt make her any different from Brand or Malzahar. And her new goals no matter how ultimately positive does not excuse the absolutely foul way she goes about it. Kayle and Morgana were never a case of good versus evil, I laughed at how hard people seemed to just blatantly ignore what their original lore was, them having more of it and it being more clear to the playerbase does not change what they are. People were mad because they had a false perception of the characters often based on ignorance. We dont need more senseless evil characters, thresh is a vile sadist, Jhin is a twisted murderer, brand wants apocalypse, the Void is a dark terror, Hecarim is a selfish glory hound that desires to bring death to the living. We DO have bad characters, but we should give them a bit more nuance. Of all people, a mighty emperor and major character of the world, should not be so simple. I don't want him to be comical like a cartoon villain, I would hate him being evil for evils sake. He should be a cold calculating and neccesarily brutal warlord. Someone who is willing to do things that most people simply wont accept as reasonable or justifiable, but he should still have the goal of conquering and ruling the lands, not just pure slaughter of everything in his path.
RéktSai (NA)
: Champions who are LONG overdue for a Skin.
I would love a Chemtech Kassadin.
: There are two types of evil in this world.
Ha, Mordekaiser can heal cannon right as the enemy is about to last hit it, its hilarious.
nelogis (EUW)
: Top lane feels shit to play because the lane is changing
Nah, this whole argument falls apart when you consider some staple top laners like Rumble, Swain, and Teemo, and using the example of Vladimir and Akali who are absolutely not new to top lane just makes the post a little nonsensical, not to mention Vayne top's success is tied to her being generally over tuned right now. We need less self imposed restrictions on roles, not more, I had so much fun playing non marksmen in botlane, and I was really excited to see more people come to realize you don't need to play a marksmen, I thought things would finally change in the game culture, and then riot just gave up and caved in to the angry adc mains and just reverted everything despite the changes happening because we all agreed marksmen were waay too strong (Funny that, same exact thing they did with the recent crit revert.). Also funny thing about the poor nature of your general statements, not only are there certainly non bruiser/tank champions that are staples of top, but it gets more specific, there are tons of bruisers you can pick top and get flamed for (Xin/WW/or until recently Hecarim top), and the same thing happens to tanks, imagine the flame for picking Sej/Ali/Zac top. And the funny thing about this is, is that it stiffles creativity and innovation, I was doing Urgot jungle for an entire season and criticized for it, and now everyone is doing it. Not to mention plenty of things that are just accepted now that had to be something different when they started, Vel Koz support, Viktor top, Taliyah jungle.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Am I the only one who wants Vlad to be actually a bit comical? I mean don't get me wrong I don't want him to be Kled-level of comical, but I hope that Riot could find a good middleground between comical and serious with his character and its not like his current VO isn't already somewhat on the comical side with all those blood puns. Overall I feel like Vladimir could be a bit narcisstic and flamboyant, but also competent, making it easy to find his antics funny, but still make him creepy and menacing if he gets serious. I feel like if he was played completely seriously, then he'd end up too similar to Elise.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jG4AcI2g,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-27T00:05:57.337+0000) > > Am I the only one who wants Vlad to be actually a bit comical? > > I mean don't get me wrong I don't want him to be Kled-level of comical, but I hope that Riot could find a good middleground between comical and serious with his character and its not like his current VO isn't already somewhat on the comical side with all those blood puns. > > Overall I feel like Vladimir could be a bit narcisstic and flamboyant, but also competent, making it easy to find his antics funny, but still make him creepy and menacing if he gets serious. > > I feel like if he was played completely seriously, then he'd end up too similar to Elise. I mean, in terms of lore there isnt really anything comical about him. And I generally hear pretty universal agreement from Vlad mains that they wish Blood Lord's VO was his base.
: Why 2020 would be the best year to VGU Vladimir
I agree with your general sentiment, but I 100% do not see him as really fulfilling the Vampire theme, and I don't think he would ever scratch that itch. There is nothing relating him to bats, he doesnt have prominent fangs, no weakness to the sun, no relation to being undead, and he lacks the skill at arms that has come to be associated with Vampires. He undeniably has some traits that are classic vampire traits, but he has become something far more unique, certainly doesn't quite scratch that vampire itch in my opinion, and I don't really see it ideal to push him that way. He is a blood mage, and what comes to mind is far more along the lines of blood magic in say Dragon Age, then Vampirism. The other note is that I agree his character could be so much better, his current VO in my opinion is the worst and most frustrating to listen to in the game, he has a legendary skin that is at this point laughable, and his visuals are horrendous. But his gameplay is frankly perfection. He doesn't need a full VGU, rather I would say he should be top priority for a Morgana/Ezreal style rework.
Haziv (EUW)
: Zed vs Shen event ?
No one even mentions {{champion:268}} vs {{champion:101}} Its the perfect versus event especially if they want to do something for midlane mages.
Lunio (NA)
: Why are all of xerath’s skins terrible
His two older skins are bad. But how are Guardian of the Sands, and Scorched Earth Xerath bad? I think they are both pretty darn good.
: Fan VU of Leblanc
This is certainly a big improvement. But if we think about it and think on her recent mentions in the trifarex, I cant imagine Lb in her current lore showing all that much skin.
: My username is claimed to be inappropriate after a couple of years using it
I mean, sounds perfectly reasonable, you should know Riot can be slow at catching people who break rules, that isn't somehow a reason to not have you receive the punishment of needing a new name
King Zeus (EUNE)
: If Devil Tristana will be added in the game maybe....
Nah, get ready for Surprise Party Shaco.
: So... I guess if you search for League of legends on google right now...
I got a canvas of a naked Ahri, which is a little strange since I don't look for that kind of stuff. Infact, who even buys a home decor canvas of a naked anime girl? Seems like an awkward thing to just have on your wall.
: Another j4 skin ???
I mean, he went ages before finally getting a new skin, one which was quite poorly received, and now a year later is receiving a gemstone exclusive skin. I don't really see the problem.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Dunk master Ivern...
Its great, it fits a tall and lanky character really well, now I just want three pointer Zil to go with him and Darius.
Eranell (EUW)
: AP-Bruiser Item Concepts
I feel we need AP bruiser items, but I dont know about these... Hard cc on an item seems like too much for League, having resistances on bruiser items seems like a very odd choice when regular bruiser items are notable for having health without resistances. And most importantly I feel like it does nothing to address two of the main issues for ap bruisers: Being able to get 20% cdr on an item that isnt full damage, and being able to get percent mr shred/penetration from an item that isnt full damage like Void.
: What are your thoughts on the Aatrox Rework and the current state of Aatrox?
Hit kit is interesting and extremely fun, but designing a kit that is so strong in so many ways gated only by being very hard to play well consistently simply isnt a workable design. Some things clearly need to change about his kit though to not make him so good in pro play and open up the ability to buff him, he is currently in the exact same place as Urgot, who is getting changes to make him stronger but less safe this coming patch. Aatrox needs roughly the same thing Urgot is getting.
Šeriu (EUW)
: Custom Skin community needs your help
Garen is fun, but I dont like any of his skins, custom skins allowed me to be an actual bad ass knight, not to mention a Witch Hunter Gangplank, skins which I would buy if they actually released. Now I cant use either, and it brings me a tear to the eye, its a real shame to see such creativity go to waste.
: I feel the influence/influx of Warhammer 40k writers is steering League into this new lore direction of 'omg we have to make people good/bad/shades of gray but really they're good/bad I swear!'. There's a huge emphasis on 'Factions' just like how WH40k divides up its lore among major Imperium factions and xeno races. The problem is that this can make a lot of storylines feel super isolated from one another, which is currently a huge problem in League. Warhammer 40k, to it's credit, has a long series of supplementary material to support its gigantic cast and various plot threads. Novels and new codex books are released regularly. League... League's only regular release is a SINGLE 4-issue comic highlighting ONE champion (maybe 2 with Sejuani) which is ending in a month. We've also got 2 more comics (unknown issue-count/release schedule) + a novella (not a novel). This is great and all... but League has 140+ champions at this point. It's simply not keeping pace. This means League cannot build that interwoven net of plot threads relating to each other. The old lore didn't have this problem at all because you could always handwave a INSTITUTE OF WAR MEETING GROUND. Instead there's several factions that still need to be built up, worldbuilt, and just... so much groundwork left to establish because the tone has shifted from goofy-tabloid-celebrity to dark-fantasy. Modern League lore hasn't found it's niche or groove and the way it's going I just see it as a darker, less interesting fantasy spinoff of Warhammer. League doesn't have a unifying art style like Overwatch/TF/WH40k/Warcraft. League doesn't have a central conflict other than "FACTIONS EXISTS AND THEY FIGHT EACH OTHER OH AND MEBBE THE VOID BUT TEHEHEHEHE NOT YET!" The old League lore had a central conflict, Summoner's Rift, and the politics of the Institute of War. Oh and also let's not forget anything and everything can be retconned at a drop of a hat to completely rework entire bios just because which means there's no point being invested in lore that could be utterly undone with a patch note.
Fantasy spinoff of warhammer? You do know Warhammer Fantasy already exists right? And the whole darker fantasy worlds is the way they are going because it is the current popular trend in fantasy, Dark Souls, Warhammer Fantasy becoming more popular then ever before, Dragon Age, Witcher, Game of Thrones. All of these popular fantasy universes are certainly darker then the more Lotr and DnD based stuff of the past.
: Heart vs Shell: The Disagreement on Lore
Meh, its all about finding the champ whose story really speaks to you, with so many champs out there the vast majority of people can certainly find that person, but not everyone, sorry that you havent found someone you enjoy. Personally I love to read lengthy novels, and knowing about the extended world of the characters I play is what makes them interesting, and as a big Warhammer fan, the darker path that riot has been going down is right up my ally in world design. Also side note, 'Hyper-Fascist Zealot', lol, I can't believe someone can write that and actually take it seriously.
Haziv (EUW)
: What new skin would you like for Taric?
A legendary would be neat, and seeing as how legendaries often provide an alternative personality in vo's and he doesnt really have a serious skin other then blood stone... A legendary where he is a more traditional looking Knight Paladin with noble and charismatic but still more serious voice lines, and golden effects could be really neat.
Anu3isII (EUNE)
: At this point, I think we all agree that Riot has to look at Muramana and rework it. It has been core on Ezreal and only he is building it most of the time, making it simply an "Ezreal item" similar to how Viktor got his Hexcore. I agree with you that they should definitely nerf his burst and buff his DPS. Hope they will at least think about it...
Muramana getting removed right as Urgot will start building it would be just tragic.
: Neeko adc is literally more popular than AP
I think the viability of on hit on her is good, its not anymore frustrating then her base gameplay style, and variety is good.
: Don't gut AP ez just remove double tear
Huh... AP Ezreal is about the W anyways, the ratio on q was already bad, its main purpose is applying lichbane and proccing your w from a longer range.
: If garen is as weak as nasus early game, why doesnt he get the same lategame?
: Story behind your league names?
I main Morde, I wanted a name that fits. Let me know if you come up with the band name I mashed for mine. ;p
: Unpopular opinion but not all doggos are a good boy
The only experience I have with dogs is being bitten by one on the street, they certainly are not all good boys.
: > [{quoted}](name=Metallikaiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEgT5AR5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-04T20:58:57.185+0000) > > Meh, I think her kit was perfectly fine, and I am happy to see it because it gives me hopes that more VU's will be made, since I think a lot of champions need them over a full rework. (Jarvan, and Zillean come to mind among champs I play) Jarvan and Zilean both need a little more love than QOL changes. Jarvan's kit is overall meh, and could use some spice to it. His banner grab and his ult are about as notable as it gets. Zilean's kit is passable at the moment, but overall in some need of more finer tuning, and possibly some ability replacement to make it a little less reliant on his Qs to do anything.
Jarvans kit isnt super flashy, but it works fine, is simple while still having skill expression, and is well balanced at all tiers of play, I dont see the point in potentially screwing that all up just because it doesnt have 'spice'. Nah, Zilean is great, and I know for sure that I speak with the rest of the Zilean community that he is perfectly fun. Apart from fixing up the hit box prioritisation for his bombs, the only thing he needs is a different passive. I don't see how his q's being the basis of his kit is a bad, thing plenty of champs play heavily around one of their abilities, not to mention saying he needs it to do anything is just not true, a great Zil ult can win fights and games with ease, and the utility of his speedboost/slow is absolutely solid in its own right. I am up for hearing suggestions to change Zil's gameplay, but I certainly don't really see an issue with it.
: Am I the only one slightly disappointed that they didn't try to really rework Morgana?
Meh, I think her kit was perfectly fine, and I am happy to see it because it gives me hopes that more VU's will be made, since I think a lot of champions need them over a full rework. (Jarvan, and Zillean come to mind among champs I play)
: Is Diana the Key to Defeating the Darkin? [Lore Dive]
I would suggest she is of even more use then that. The moonstone Nami needs, along with the whole Darkin are touched by the void thing, makes me think Diana is important for combating the Void as well.
: Ionian Language (Constructed Scripts)
As someone with a passion for Philology, this is the kind of post that absolutely enthralls me. Thank you so very much! Even though admittedly my area of study hasn't crossed much into eastern languages, so some of these things are tricky even for me (Tones in Mandarin studies were a nightmare for me!), that did not diminish my joy in reading it.
: Female Faces
Its funny because they used a baseline which is supposed to be traditional attractiveness, but as someone who notably does not find round faces with soft pointed chins ideal, I dont even see them as all too attractive. I like longer faces like Camille, and fiora (Though other aspects of her ruin any kind of attraction I would find in her.). But I do think this is a tad exaggerated, there are some characters you didnt show which have some more facial diversity, and I think some work they have shown in concepts, newer champs (Reworked Irelia, Camille, Taliyah) and cinematics, shows they are improving.
: PETITION TO KEEP ITEM SETS
Dude. Item sets are 1,000% a god send for people who play off meta stuff.
: On this day, NINE years ago, Mordekaiser was released unto the live servers
I love boys with cool solid armor. I love my knights and always play them in fantasy games, there certainly arent enough of them in League. I first got Kayle because she looked awesome and had fun with her as a support. (Funny how if I started playing now I would never be interested in her...) and then it was Pantheon, and I spent my entire first year playing the game as pretty much a Pantheon one trick, he fit this armored warrior and I loved how easy it was to get into him and be effective. Then it happened, I noticed another helmet in the champion list, one belonging to the best splash I had ever seen and I knew I had to play him. Mordekaiser was the best, I played him top, I played him mid, I played him jungle, I played him bot and fell in love with him and being able to play him bot which no one else expected at my low elo. And nothing can stop this goliath of metal and death from being my ideal in League.
: Is it just me, or... Has tenacity lost its effects this patch?
I definitely Garen w'd through most of that Morgana bind, so no, it still works for me.
: Pentakill Kayle makes Mordekaiser and Aatrox jealous.
Heh, we know our rework is coming, I am not jealous, this shows me they know what they are doing.
RJay123 (NA)
: Unpopular Opinion: Good and Evil are not relative @Riot
Oh ofcourse there are plenty of people who agree with you, and there are plenty who don't. Moral relativity isn't exactly a new talking point.
RJay123 (NA)
: I'm Catholic. A. No one knows what's going to happen on Judgement Day other than judgement, meaning that sin and evil is removed from the world, and if you go under the premise that sin causes suffering, God is removing all suffering from the world, pretty benevolent to me. And B. the slaughter of 185,000 Assyrian soldiers who.. uh.. have literally gone city by city, destroying each one as they go? According to Assyrian accounts, they destroyed 46 of Judah's cities, stopping only at Jersusalem because of the failed siege. Considering the fact that Assyria is an empire that has actively destroyed civilization after civilization, sending an angel to annihilate the army responsible for it sounds like pretty benevolent stuff. At best, it's an act of self-defense to protect the Israelites, at worst, it was an act of war. Considering this was a time thousands of years in the past, stuff like this wasn't uncommon. In fact, to have a defensive war policy was almost unheard of in a world where everyone wanted to conquer everyone else. Now if I don't want this comment to get taken down, I need to justify what this has to do with Kayle. Angels are a Christian symbol. Inspiration for Kayle comes from Christian belief. Even the anatomy of her wings comes from descriptions of Cherubims and Seraphims, high ranking angels from heaven and the closest to God. The connection between Kayle and Christian symbolism is undeniable. The vast majority of Christians don't believe carrying out God's will involves wholesale slaughter. Official Christian doctrine for the vast majority of Christian denominations are staunchly against purges, cleansings, and anything else similar to genocide. If I'm going to look at Kayle purely from a religious perspective, she is basically heresy. She's a perversion of the values my faith upholds and throws dirt in the face of my beliefs by portraying a symbol of good as an extreme evil. From a purely religious perspective, Kayle is a disgusting insult to my faith. But I'm not going look at it that way. People can create characters and stories with their own imagination and I'm perfectly ok with that. It's clear that there is a line I can draw between Kayle and the angels I believe in. Kayle is fiction, whereas Christian (more specifically Catholic) angels are not. While I'm not enthusiastic about Kayle's lore, it isn't a terrible story, objectively speaking. It isn't the best out there, but it's pretty well written. I'm not furious so much as I'm slightly irritated. It isn't a big deal to me. Kayle isn't my character. I'm in no position to lord over Riot's narrative team so that they only wrote what I liked. I understand that you're never going to please all of your audience as a writer and that there are people out there that like Kayle for other reasons. But to pretend that Kayle doesn't alienate the vast majority of Christians whose beliefs would liken Kayle to a demon from hell, is ignorant. Riot fails to be "globally inclusive" here. Angels are hardly relevant to cultures outside of Christianity, so if Kayle was Riot's attempt to include a "Christian symbol" in a multicultural game, they failed miserably. It doesn't include anyone. It only excludes the group of people Kayle would appeal to.
I by no means am saying that it wasn't justified for the Angel of Death to protect Israel and kill its enemies, I am using it as an example that Angels are certainly capable of fighting violently against evil, just as ofcourse we know St Michael will lead the armies of God against Satan and his forces of evil. And the Angel of Deaths purging of Jerusalem to punish its people for its turn to paganism shows that a more general purge like what happened at Sodom can be carried out by Angels. I am sorry that you took it so personally when reading the story, (though to be fair, as female angels are already not a proper depiction within my Orthodox Church, I have an easier time distancing them.) but I think it is fair that we don't really know the circumstances well enough to actually judge if the city was undeserving and thus if it actually was pure slaughter or not. Afterall with Morgana operating there and Kayle turning a blind eye to her, it is implied that the population was largely people who broke the rules as seen by Kayle and her morals. That said, with obviously their father, there were some innocents, and more importantly unlike every purge that happened in the bible, there was no warning given out before hand of what was to come, which is the thing I would hold against it as a depiction of the moral integrity of actual angels. Indeed the lore paints this as a consequence of her emotions which is something that would not make sense when compared to an actual angel. I can see where one might be upset, but I would argue it an overly rash judgement on what actually happened in Kayle's story. And in looking at the injustices that did happen, they are born of the fact that it was a personal choice made by her emotionally, which is very different from the actions of angels which could never be bad unless fallen because they act directly to carry out the will of all knowing God, and thus it would be hard to compare the two perfectly, as she wouldnt be able to purely do the right thing without being a God like being in her own right, and angels being gods is most certainly a heretical view, and thus would be even worse from Riot.
Disig (NA)
: I would say tell me of ONE authoritarian government that is considered good, but then I remember that there are people in Russia and China who love their governments and I am biased as an American. So okay, that's fair. However, if we use Demacia as an example, I don't think anyone would say what they do to mages is right. Nor would I say that people reading Kayle's bio would say oh, she's a fine example, killing people for being unlawful in ANY way! No, her story makes her come off as brutal, absolute, and unable to see that the world IS shades of grey. Same with Demacia. With their current lore reboot I actually don't see anything that makes them redeemable after seeing what they do to mages. This is the problem with their writing. They say they want a grey area, but they're not creating a grey area. Edit: I think what I actually meant was a totalitarian government. Not authoritarian. If that helps.
Meh, its hard to talk about I think because of the fact that magic isn't exactly an often talked about thing in typical modern discourse, (though it should be noted that the Old Testament clearly says to kill practitioners of magic, and thus it is an old bad, to the point where I am pretty sure it does carry the death penalty in fairly state religious countries like Saudi Arabia) but considering that being pro magic or against magic is a fairly typical argument in fantasy, I think you are underestimating how many people agree with discrimination against mages. And I think you are discounting all the good that has been said of Demacians in Garens bio, and the recent story of those Demacian soldiers escorting an emmissary, and the Lux story. Demacia is still a nation that cares for its countrymen in general and likely doesnt really suffer from starvation or much crime. That said, while I disagree on Demacia being a failure of showing grey and that people are overlooking too much. I agree on Kayle, I think plenty of people can accept someone who is brutal and unrelenting if they see the good that can come out of it. But the lore given doesnt really show us any kind of tangible benefit of her actions, I am sure riot intended for it to exist, but they didnt get that across.
Disig (NA)
: My problem isn't that they want to go morally grey. My problem is they seem to be absolutely blind to the fact that they aren't writing morally grey. Demacia is clearly an oppressive state, which is bad. Kayle is clearly over the top lawful stupid, which is bad. Morgana actually wants to help people. This is clearly good. We don't SEE any motivation in Morgana to make us think she's even evil aside from her edgy look and some snarky voice lines. The grey area they may be going for here is just not believable, if it's there at all. But they did a decent job with Noxus. Here we have a military state, conquerors. you'd think, damn that's bad. But in the stories we get we see that places under Noxus rule DO see an improvement of quality of life. It may be based off of might is right and the strong should survive, but there are good things that come from it. THAT is morally grey. Killing and imprisoning mages in a world where we KNOW magic is a thing that can be good or evil is inherently BAD. Demacia has no redeeming qualities at this moment. And what I find worse is that in discussions like these when people bring this up the comments just get ignored. They only seem to reply to the people they can easily counter argue. To me this either means they know and don't want to bring attention to it, or they're thinking about it and considering what to do in future stories. I'm really hoping in future stories they show us more of the grey for Demacia. It really needs some redeeming qualities highlighted. Not individual characters, but the country as a whole. Showcase the quality of life of the citizens, the more fair laws. What is Demacia doing that is actually good? Because right now we're not seeing it. As for inherently good and evil characters, I think that has merit so far as they are well written. Black and white characters CAN be well written and not cliche. And it worries me that thus far by their statements, Riot doesn't seem to think that's true. I agree with OP that they shouldn't shy away from good/evil characters, especially since by doing so they'll end up alienating part of their player base. You can have good writing and good/evil.
I mean, good and bad is relative, I agree that they can do a better job of highlighting the downsides of Morganas actions. But 'oppressive' regimes aka authoritarian government is certainly not a universal bad, its a kind of government that plenty of people support. And lawful stupid is usually just an insult that doesnt really mean anything other then you telling us you don't like extremism, but I am sure plenty of people like extreme lawful good that makes up the Inquisitor/Paladin archetype.
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Metallikaiser

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