Joeda89 (NA)
: These changes make lethality the only option. E doing magic damage is gona make it do way more. Most mr is around the 40-60's without itemization so it's damage should be fine if not higher unless they build magic resist.
> [{quoted}](name=Joeda89,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=vbh0QVyZ,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-12-21T07:41:05.513+0000) > > These changes make lethality the only option. E doing magic damage is gona make it do way more. Most mr is around the 40-60's without itemization so it's damage should be fine if not higher unless they build magic resist. I think you need to look a bit more closely. The lowered cooldown on Q and the changes to E might promote a Q max and make him a serious Tri-Force abuser. It was already decent on him if you could afford it, but these changes could make him absolute thrash turrets. We'll see.
Meddler (NA)
: Yep, there were a number of bugs with the Clones targeting/attacking that I didn't get a chance to fix. My apologies to Lutzburg for those/thanks for taking them on to him. Intent at least was that the clone would target the nearest enemy by default, but would favor the target you'd most recently attacked yourself (whether pre or post cast) if it was in range.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=fowIVQGP,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2019-10-24T00:11:42.083+0000) > > Yep, there were a number of bugs with the Clones targeting/attacking that I didn't get a chance to fix. My apologies to Lutzburg for those/thanks for taking them on to him. Intent at least was that the clone would target the nearest enemy by default, but would favor the target you'd most recently attacked yourself (whether pre or post cast) if it was in range. The most obvious glitch to fix was when you decoy, sometimes you would spin until you died or maybe a recall would stop it. It looked hilarious, but I'm betting it wasn't intentional.
: Wukong Update- Now In Active Development!
I played him in the last update a good amount. I liked everything about these changes and the only thing I would consider is lowering the cooldown for Decoy. Since it stays up and attacks with you, the CD not starting until after it disappeared made it feel like I couldn't be as tricky with it as I wanted to be. Otherwise, as long as you don't ship the names of the moves, the rework felt amazing. So much so I stopped playing him live for months.
Meddler (NA)
: Once we've got some concrete timing on Wukong I'll definitely be sharing it. I'm sorry I can't offer more than that at present. Aatrox wise for now at least I believe we're just going to be cutting some power off, aimed at hitting pro play more than regular if possible. Mechanics changes are much more likely to need follow up so thinking about those for post 9.19 instead.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Inh8Ut1d,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-30T15:50:32.678+0000) > > Once we've got some concrete timing on Wukong I'll definitely be sharing it. I'm sorry I can't offer more than that at present. > > Aatrox wise for now at least I believe we're just going to be cutting some power off, aimed at hitting pro play more than regular if possible. Mechanics changes are much more likely to need follow up so thinking about those for post 9.19 instead. Is part of the timing to avoid a world's meta with a brand new rework in Wukong? I don't expect him to be meta even post rework, but I can see the risk it might have.
: Wow okay so no Volibear changes...{{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}}
> [{quoted}](name=Zacaroni Salad,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=47sZjvTg,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-04-01T02:37:00.863+0000) > > Wow okay so no Volibear changes...{{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} Voli and Wukong not even relevant enough to be part of a joke, lol.
Meddler (NA)
: Once we've got some details to share we'll share em. Likely we also put work on PBE for an extended period like with Quinn, Rengar, LB work last year. Don't have anything concrete yet besides being able to say we're planning to do some work on him. Don't want to build any expectations around how quickly, scope of change etc. Won't be just numbers changes, certainly not a large scale rework though.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=RgwqT7KP,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2019-01-25T16:46:30.208+0000) > > Once we've got some details to share we'll share em. Likely we also put work on PBE for an extended period like with Quinn, Rengar, LB work last year. > > Don't have anything concrete yet besides being able to say we're planning to do some work on him. Don't want to build any expectations around how quickly, scope of change etc. Won't be just numbers changes, certainly not a large scale rework though. Thank you for taking the time to do it even though his problem is quite complicated. I was pretty worried about the damage nerfs to the game because Wukong is all damage and not much else.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
When should we expect damage nerfs for the game to hit? I've seen it be mentioned on Twitter so I was wondering when we should expect it.
: I mean compare that to an udyr waveclear.... or a warwick waveclear... or a trndle waveclear... or a renagar waveclear...yet they will be 100% fine... whats funny is that they didnt realy buy tiamat to begin with There was time where none of the toplaners bought tiamat and everything was just fine... there was times where riot literally removed the AOE part of tiamat.... and you were forced to acutally upgrade it indo a hydra.. yet agian everyone was just fine..
> [{quoted}](name=BitingDino,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1fGaKtqV,comment-id=002e0001000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-16T17:58:13.940+0000) > > I mean compare that to an udyr waveclear.... or a warwick waveclear... or a trndle waveclear... or a renagar waveclear...yet they will be 100% fine... whats funny is that they didnt realy buy tiamat to begin with > > There was time where none of the toplaners bought tiamat and everything was just fine... there was times where riot literally removed the AOE part of tiamat.... and you were forced to acutally upgrade it indo a hydra.. yet agian everyone was just fine.. That's pretty disingenuous, though. Wukong in no way has the same playing pattern of any of those champions that you mentioned. The ones he does, Zed and Talon, clear the wave and roam. Zed has good natural wave clear so he doesn't need it. Talon is more reliant on Tiamat than Wukong is in the current meta. This is why nerfing it was potentially another hit to a champ that's eaten a shit load of nerfs this season. However, a price increase isn't as bad as I was expecting. Still viable.
: yea i was trying to use sarcasm beacuse of bias mains kinda cry... but in reality their champion is pretty toxic to begin with.... trust me the same nerf will hit everyone equally. wich means ppl who used tiamat wont be able to push as hard to begin with = they wont push you under tower .... Also wukong has a pretty easy time farming under tower lolz, and he can push pretty fast too wihout tiamat so not sure what is your point in the first place.
> [{quoted}](name=BitingDino,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1fGaKtqV,comment-id=002e00010004000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-13T22:42:44.533+0000) > > yea i was trying to use sarcasm beacuse of bias mains kinda cry... but in reality their champion is pretty toxic to begin with.... trust me the same nerf will hit everyone equally. wich means ppl who used tiamat wont be able to push as hard to begin with = they wont push you under tower .... > > Also wukong has a pretty easy time farming under tower lolz, and he can push pretty fast too wihout tiamat so not sure what is your point in the first place. That's a good point. We can adjust our builds accordingly and some of them can't. I just think our wave clear is already awful.
: I tihnk udyr will be pushed under tower too. Shen too. Nasus too. Volibear too. Shyvanna too. And the list goes on.
> [{quoted}](name=BitingDino,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1fGaKtqV,comment-id=002e000100040000,timestamp=2018-12-12T19:52:38.041+0000) > > I tihnk udyr will be pushed under tower too. Shen too. Nasus too. Volibear too. Shyvanna too. And the list goes on. In no way does that discount what I said. Just because others get pushed in doesn't mean it won't be yet another Nerf to a champ that already took 6.
Meddler (NA)
: Tiamat - bit too strong a spike as a rush item, power of wave clear offered's very high even if not always appreciated. Compensation - Potentially. Might mean we buff WW a bit more than we otherwise would for example. Also open to helping any other champs hit hard who shouldn't be brought down a bit power wise anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1fGaKtqV,comment-id=002e0001,timestamp=2018-12-12T17:29:30.846+0000) > > Tiamat - bit too strong a spike as a rush item, power of wave clear offered's very high even if not always appreciated. > > Compensation - Potentially. Might mean we buff WW a bit more than we otherwise would for example. Also open to helping any other champs hit hard who shouldn't be brought down a bit power wise anyway. With this Nerf Wukong might be one of the easiest champs to push into turret in the game. Would this potentially prompt an E revert since items, runes and abilities were nerfed and now another item is nerfed?
iiTim (EUW)
: Wukong got a 53.44% winrate in the top lane. He is the second best preforming top laner. And got a 51% win rate in the jungle. This is one of the reason's why he is getting nerfed
> [{quoted}](name=iiTim,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9oXgJ5Oj,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T11:06:52.669+0000) > > Wukong got a 53.44% winrate in the top lane. He is the second best preforming top laner. And got a 51% win rate in the jungle. This is one of the reason's why he is getting nerfed But it's like nerfing Master Yi. Only effective in low elo, shutdown easily in higher elo. The second he popped his head in higher elo/one game in pro, he got nerfed hard. Hardest of any champion all year. I'm not a Wukong player that's super upset about it, but I'm low elo so it's okay for me. However, he needs a passive. It doesn't matter how much they like him in China, his passive is top 3 worst in the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 28
Do you feel we're getting to a point where items and runes can be touched less often, but champions are going to be tweaked more, or is it still a dance to get the runes just right first? Ever since runes reforged it feels like everything has been adjusted constantly and I was just wondering when we can see a bit of stability.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 16
Those event changes to Nexus Blitz sound like a blast. Those Duels and 2v2's are going to be hilarious and open people up to ridicule.
: We haven't been putting time into those atm. In the midst of preseason work we have had very little time to devote to individual champ work, and for designers that did have time we've been putting it into those pro play victim champs who we can hopefully bring back to rough parity. I suspect some of her frustration will go away when you have MR to start the game (less poke/burst in lane phase), but should she continue to be an issue we'll work on her again I'm sure.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FmiRa9A5,comment-id=00410001,timestamp=2018-11-09T18:21:09.057+0000) > > We haven't been putting time into those atm. In the midst of preseason work we have had very little time to devote to individual champ work, and for designers that did have time we've been putting it into those pro play victim champs who we can hopefully bring back to rough parity. I suspect some of her frustration will go away when you have MR to start the game (less poke/burst in lane phase), but should she continue to be an issue we'll work on her again I'm sure. Does this mean some problem children are just waiting for preseason items and rune changes to take any sort of look at them? That actually makes sense tbh. I do wonder if Spear of Shojin will make Wukong strong again. I know a lot of us players talk about him a lot on here, so I've been expecting that many of us vocal player bases for certain champs are going to have to wait until after preseason patches.
: Because as I said, it's less impactful of getting beaten top than mid. Your sentence works for mid aswell. He has dog shit match ups across the board. Explain Zed and Talon one tricks. Wu has maybe two decent match ups mid, I never understood this logic other than being stubborn. The fact that zed and talon have natural waveclear+poke+ranged is already a far bigger laning pro. The fact that wukong ult isn't burst but 4 seconds DPS, makes it pretty bad in such a small lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Pisse de Bloos,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00230000000000000003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-04T10:24:43.156+0000) > > Because as I said, it's less impactful of getting beaten top than mid. > > Your sentence works for mid aswell. > > He has dog shit match ups across the board. Explain Zed and Talon one tricks. Wu has maybe two decent match ups mid, I never understood this logic other than being stubborn. > > The fact that zed and talon have natural waveclear+poke+ranged is already a far bigger laning pro. > > The fact that wukong ult isn't burst but 4 seconds DPS, makes it pretty bad in such a small lane. I think you need to look up his win rate against Zed. It's a hard counter. The skill discrepancy needs to be pretty high for Wukong to lose lane and he scales better than Zed in general. I see your point about other mid lane match ups, but I don't necessarily agree. However, I'm not DIamond 1 like you so you have much more difficult opponents than I do. I hear similar complaints from other high Elo Wukongs so I commend you for making it so on the Monkey King. I will say in my experience, if your team takes AP elsewhere, then it's a very good pick. If my team is all AD, recently I've just been taking LB because after the nerfs I don't dominate like I used to before. However, if they lock in Zed, Fizz, Kat, Ekko, Yasuo, or Talon I'm taking Wukong 100% of the time. Zed, Yasuo, and Kat are relatively easy match ups. Fizz and Ekko are pretty favorable. He is also a pretty sizable counter in lane against TF. The rest are skill in my experience, aside from LB and Anivia who have heavy advantages in early trades. But again, I'm not facing Dia 1's so my experience is much different from yours.
: Silver 4 ADC or Support looking for team!
: 60% winrate on 1% pickrate of a champion played only by one tricks (so 1% of 2%) is pretty much meaningless, only a handful of wumids exist. If you care about winrate, you care about elo and again, wutops > wumids.
> [{quoted}](name=Pisse de Bloos,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=002300000000000000030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T07:37:50.414+0000) > > 60% winrate on 1% pickrate of a champion played only by one tricks (so 1% of 2%) is pretty much meaningless, only a handful of wumids exist. > > If you care about winrate, you care about elo and again, wutops > wumids. He has dog shit match ups across the board. You getting shit on in lane is far more detrimental to the team than an AD mid. Explain Zed and Talon one tricks. Wu has maybe two decent match ups top. I never understood this logic other than being stubborn.
TekkX (NA)
: Looking for Bronze-Gold JG NA!
I play mid/jungle at Silver V-III. Still need someone?
Guts Man (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=0023000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:59:30.659+0000) > > Yeah, from memory his performance top is noticeably weaker than mid/jungle. We're not trying to push him into any of those positions specifically, just looks at this point like his kit's better suited to mid and jungle than top based off how the game and his playstyles have evolved. I checked some stats on u.gg (unsure the reliability) and you're definitely right, just seems like he isn't played mid very much, as its his lowest position for playrate. I actually wanted to try him mid, so this is good to know. Thanks for all the responses!
> [{quoted}](name=Diabeetor,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00230000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T17:02:54.383+0000) > > I checked some stats on u.gg (unsure the reliability) and you're definitely right, just seems like he isn't played mid very much, as its his lowest position for playrate. I actually wanted to try him mid, so this is good to know. Thanks for all the responses! I've played him almost exclusively mid for 2 years. He's good, but match up dependent. Also, the same issue as Zed and Talon: need AP sometimes.
: It's not a resistance, matchups in mid are awful most of the time. In soloQ you're not CAPS, your jungle and support won't play around you 100% of the time instantly punishing the enemy midlaner freely poking you under turret. It also feels terrible when the enemy laner just gets in safety after a dash. Yes his matchups top are poor and no, matchups mid are not skilled matchups, they are are poor aswell, except worse because you can't even farm under tower. Wumids keep saying that it's better, matchups are easier, you can delete squishy etc etc, in reality nobody will let you do that, good players will always punish you or waveclear well enough for you to be stuck. There are several wumid players I know in high diamond(DoctorWu and PrayforDrakmix) and they have a harder time getting master.. if at all, than toplaners that's just a fact. having less impact on the game = good for wukong because he's just that bad. it's also putting your team in a disadvantage if you don't have ap damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Pisse de Bloos,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=0023000000000000000300000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T19:34:12.084+0000) > > It's not a resistance, matchups in mid are awful most of the time. > > In soloQ you're not CAPS, your jungle and support won't play around you 100% of the time instantly punishing the enemy midlaner freely poking you under turret. > > It also feels terrible when the enemy laner just gets in safety after a dash. > > Yes his matchups top are poor and no, matchups mid are not skilled matchups, they are are poor aswell, except worse because you can't even farm under tower. > > Wumids keep saying that it's better, matchups are easier, you can delete squishy etc etc, in reality nobody will let you do that, good players will always punish you or waveclear well enough for you to be stuck. > > There are several wumid players I know in high diamond(DoctorWu and PrayforDrakmix) and they have a harder time getting master.. if at all, than toplaners that's just a fact. > > having less impact on the game = good for wukong because he's just that bad. > > it's also putting your team in a disadvantage if you don't have ap damage. Who cares if you win? 60% win rate is all I care about.
: > [{quoted}](name=SnugglePuggle94,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=0031,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:38:44.179+0000) > > #RevertRunesReforged > > This stupid system needs to go!! We want our old runes and masteries back! > > #REVERT If by "we" you mean the entire community then no, not really. Other than a small minority of people who think like you it seems to me, and the majority of the community, that Runes Reforged (albeit with bumps and stuff along the way) was a major improvement over the old system. For one thing the cost of runes was just way too high, especially considering you couldn't change them in champ select. Plus it mostly ended up with people who either spent thousands and thousands of IP/BE on runes and pages, or people like me who just had 2 general pages, one for AP and one for AD. By contrast, Runes Reforged offers much more flexibility in how you pick pre game stats. I could drone on and on but that is just an example. The work Riot did with Runes Reforged was too much to just "revert" bc a small minority of people that don't like change. If anything, they would probably rework new runes to be similar to old ones while keeping the same visual theme. But even that seems extremely unlikely and unnecessary. I would suggest saying "I want my old runes and masteries back!" rather than "We want our old runes and masteries back!" since the former is more accurate. Also bring a logical reason to do so, please. Thx :)
> [{quoted}](name=ItsFreakinHarry,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00310001,timestamp=2018-10-26T17:28:04.467+0000) > > If by "we" you mean the entire community then no, not really. Other than a small minority of people who think like you it seems to me, and the majority of the community, that Runes Reforged (albeit with bumps and stuff along the way) was a major improvement over the old system. > > For one thing the cost of runes was just way too high, especially considering you couldn't change them in champ select. Plus it mostly ended up with people who either spent thousands and thousands of IP/BE on runes and pages, or people like me who just had 2 general pages, one for AP and one for AD. By contrast, Runes Reforged offers much more flexibility in how you pick pre game stats. > > I could drone on and on but that is just an example. The work Riot did with Runes Reforged was too much to just "revert" bc a small minority of people that don't like change. If anything, they would probably rework new runes to be similar to old ones while keeping the same visual theme. But even that seems extremely unlikely and unnecessary. > > I would suggest saying "I want my old runes and masteries back!" rather than "We want our old runes and masteries back!" since the former is more accurate. Also bring a logical reason to do so, please. Thx :) They want the only facet of play to win back!
: Hi meddler, I think you're not quite right on that point. Historically wukong toplaners were always the highest elo-wise, the reason is mainly because of the lack of toplane impact in the game, so when he falls behind, it's less of an issue as if he were in jungle or midlane(because he has a meh early game and gets pressured by his opponent) I understand you guys are concerned about the aoe part of his kit but his ult is vastly underwhelming, if you had to change that ~~ and the passive it would be okay, you shouldn't focus on the fact that his ultimate is part/huge thematic of his kit but instead on how you could make wukong closer to the real monkey king. Most of the time his rank 1 ultimate base damage is too low to be a threat to the opponent, and afterwards it's what prevents counterplay on a flank. (main burst is his e-auto-q-elec-duskblade combo). If you check the season 1 spotlight it looks like he was designed to be a triforce bruiser but he really really doesn't fit that, and cannot. My fellow wukong mains will probably disagree with me on the fact that the ultimate should be changed, but if that prevents him to become healthier overall in any given situation (his early game and splitpushing abilites), there's gonna be a time when it'll have to be changed.
> [{quoted}](name=Pisse de Bloos,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00230000000000000003,timestamp=2018-10-26T18:30:56.685+0000) > > Hi meddler, I think you're not quite right on that point. > > Historically wukong toplaners were always the highest elo-wise, the reason is mainly because of the lack of toplane impact in the game, so when he falls behind, it's less of an issue as if he were in jungle or midlane(because he has a meh early game and gets pressured by his opponent) > > I understand you guys are concerned about the aoe part of his kit but his ult is vastly underwhelming, if you had to change that ~~ and the passive it would be okay, you shouldn't focus on the fact that his ultimate is part/huge thematic of his kit but instead on how you could make wukong closer to the real monkey king. > > Most of the time his rank 1 ultimate base damage is too low to be a threat to the opponent, and afterwards it's what prevents counterplay on a flank. (main burst is his e-auto-q-elec-duskblade combo). > > If you check the season 1 spotlight it looks like he was designed to be a triforce bruiser but he really really doesn't fit that, and cannot. > > My fellow wukong mains will probably disagree with me on the fact that the ultimate should be changed, but if that prevents him to become healthier overall in any given situation (his early game and splitpushing abilites), there's gonna be a time when it'll have to be changed. The think I don't understand is the resistance from other Wukong mains to play him mid. He has for over 2 years now felt the best in mid lane. His match ups top are very poor and most of the match ups mid are skill matches. That's perfect for Wukong who historically has a weak laning phase.
Meddler (NA)
: Wukong's design means his performance tends to fall off somewhat with MMR, 'one shot' builds somewhat excepted. Those builds tend to be pretty degenerate in terms of lack of counterplay if they're really strong though, as was the case with Wukong earlier this year. In terms of raw performance, I think he's somewhere between about right and on the strong side right now in most skill ranges for both jungle and mid performance. He has certainly been a difficult champion to put in a spot where he's balanced and Wukong players report him feeling good to play. In terms of lack of response I did end up skipping a number of Wukong posts here for a little while. Issue there for me wasn't most of the posts themselves, but the brigading leading to anyone else trying to talk as well getting downvoted and/or drowned out. Really don't want to encourage that approach, given boards upvote/downvote numbers are comparatively low so even a small group can manipulate them heavily.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00230000,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:41:29.364+0000) > > Wukong's design means his performance tends to fall off somewhat with MMR, 'one shot' builds somewhat excepted. Those builds tend to be pretty degenerate in terms of lack of counterplay if they're really strong though, as was the case with Wukong earlier this year. > > In terms of raw performance, I think he's somewhere between about right and on the strong side right now in most skill ranges for both jungle and mid performance. He has certainly been a difficult champion to put in a spot where he's balanced and Wukong players report him feeling good to play. > > In terms of lack of response I did end up skipping a number of Wukong posts here for a little while. Issue there for me wasn't most of the posts themselves, but the brigading leading to anyone else trying to talk as well getting downvoted and/or drowned out. Really don't want to encourage that approach, given boards upvote/downvote numbers are comparatively low so even a small group can manipulate them heavily. Do you feel the problems and the complaints are players struggling to move from top lane Wukong to mid and jungle?
: I don't think that's necessary since the passive is only accessible with bonus armor and magic resist purchased. This means he can't itemize for that burst damage. That said, I do think a change from the bonus AD ratio on E to a total AD ratio with a nerf to its base damage would help push him in this direction.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57bJhcmF,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-21T16:00:04.548+0000) > > I don't think that's necessary since the passive is only accessible with bonus armor and magic resist purchased. This means he can't itemize for that burst damage. > > That said, I do think a change from the bonus AD ratio on E to a total AD ratio with a nerf to its base damage would help push him in this direction. Then once Spear of Shojin was released you can build spear, BC, full tank and he would be the juggernaut/bruiser they wanted him to be in the first place. A lot of the people that like him wouldn't be in love with it, but I actually really welcome these changes if it helps him become more viable.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 10
I know there's been mention of Wukong needing a rework, but also frustration that the team doesn't know what direction to go in. What role do you think Wukong should be? We've gotten accustomed to the one shot assassin role, but what do you want him to be?
beany (NA)
: It's a pity, they've already admitted they have no idea what to do with wukong as to a rework, partly because he's been advertised as an easy champ to play for quite some time as well.
Yeah, I got to be honest, that was disheartening to read. It was after an uproar and page 1 posts on Reddit before they finally addressed him. They haven't a clue and they've shown no interest in doing anything about him.
: We're pulling those changes for 8.16 - not everything that goes to PBE will ship in the end.
Can you take one of the 4 nerfs on Wukong down as well and wait for the item and runes changes to actually hit his win rate before also destroying his Q? Or, just rework the Monkey because those nerfs are going to bring back his 7.18 win rate and dumpster tier status. Or, maybe give us a passive for a temp fix?
Meddler (NA)
: How we'd theme a final version would depend a lot on how it evolves during this testing phase and what people really do/don't like about it.
The game is overdue for a Zaun themed map for such a gamemode. One side is Piltover, the other side is Zaun. Sounds fun.
Salson (EUNE)
: > Amumu Nautilus Sion Leona Rammus Maokai To be honest this really screws a lot of players. Sion aside, everyone else feels really oppressive because of their stat-checky nature. While we get that Zac and Gragas are strong in pro play, you can still dodge stuff to survive their ganks. **Just how the hell am I supposed to outplay a Rammus?**
Since when is Amumu a stat check champion? He's bad now because there's like 7 champs that do his job better than him ATM.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: Would hardly call that a nerf...5 dmg off of her passive, -4 base armor...yeah... {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
Talon and Wukong can stomp her, but they are also strong ATM.
Meddler (NA)
: I'll get some thoughts on tanks in the second post this week. Will include touching on at least Amumu specifically, agree he's a good candidate to discuss.
Is it an old Sejuani issue where the Ult is so good that he has to be bad in other areas?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18
Since the Wukong nerf went through, is there any word when his rework is going to take place? Are there any ideas about where to take him? On the Wukong Mains sub we've been discussing a full VGU like Akali's that keeps his play style but just modernized him could be healthy for the game and the character. The team seems out of ideas for a stat check champion so wouldn't a rework ASAP make the most sense? Thoughts?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11
Hey Meddler. Since the Wukong nerfs came out on PBE and it's been contentious on the LoL sub, do you think this would bump him to the top for a rework? As a Wukong main, the E nerf just feels wrong. The one shots come from the Q. However, I think you'd find it hard to find many that think he's good as is. He needs a rework and his absurd win rates in 4 roles should help highlight this need. After Nunu and Akali, has anyone else been decided yet? Would this possibly be something that pushes him forward? I get the hesitation previously, but now that he's a super high win rate, increased play rate, increased ban rate (I actually had him picked away from me twice!). I worry this nerf will make him worse than he was at the end of season 7 if and when tanks+ADCs become viable again. Any thoughts on reworks in general?
: Team Liquid Viewing Party during MSI
: We have been, yes. The nuclear option will be locking out Duskblade and Stormrazor from being used together. I would strongly prefer to avoid that situation if possible, but testing has been inconclusive and its a real risk. Last Whisper is also significant here, though in that case it'll be about tuning either the lethality items' stats or the champions around a world where those builds scale better across game time.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2ykqAkNa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-30T18:16:54.580+0000) > > We have been, yes. > > The nuclear option will be locking out Duskblade and Stormrazor from being used together. I would strongly prefer to avoid that situation if possible, but testing has been inconclusive and its a real risk. > > Last Whisper is also significant here, though in that case it'll be about tuning either the lethality items' stats or the champions around a world where those builds scale better across game time. With this addition of Stormrazor, have you considered making Duskblade melee only and Stormrazor ranged only? A lot of the abusers the first time around for DB were ADCs. It might be a good option.
: > [{quoted}](name=CacaGrande,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YdirowFc,comment-id=003800010000,timestamp=2018-02-17T01:04:29.049+0000) > > This is going to massacre Talon, Wukong, and Shaco in their current state. I know you guys love pretending like Wukong doesn’t exist but you’ll end up having to touch him for he first time since 2014 (the one and only time he ever received any attention). > > Honestly, Sudden Impact and Duskblade proc are the only reasons he’s decent in this meta. > > Shaco already feels super weak, but I’ll leave the critiques to his mains and the same goes for Talon mains. Oh we're pissed. Check out talonmains to see the feedback. Talon is JUST like wukong, constantly forgotten. I hate how 1 item determines of assassins are good or not. They need to do something to assassins but it's apparent that riot hates assassins.
> [{quoted}](name=ShadowbladeTalon,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YdirowFc,comment-id=0038000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-17T02:38:48.911+0000) > > Oh we're pissed. Check out talonmains to see the feedback. Talon is JUST like wukong, constantly forgotten. > I hate how 1 item determines of assassins are good or not. They need to do something to assassins but it's apparent that riot hates assassins. While I agree that the item seems a bit strong (I posted on Wukong mains the day the proc was announced), it was a patch to champions like ours. Meddler did acknowledge that Talon and Wukong might need love with this change. I wonder where it leaves Shaco, though.
Meddler (NA)
: We feel Duskblade's got too much power in it relative to its users kits. That means it's a really large power spike in a way that's more homogeneous than power that's more unique to each champion. We've been doing a bit of work on some of its core intended users recently (Talon, Zed, Rengar) and nerfing it potentially allows us to do more of that rather than being blocked by Duskblade's state.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YdirowFc,comment-id=00380001,timestamp=2018-02-16T23:26:06.342+0000) > > We feel Duskblade's got too much power in it relative to its users kits. That means it's a really large power spike in a way that's more homogeneous than power that's more unique to each champion. We've been doing a bit of work on some of its core intended users recently (Talon, Zed, Rengar) and nerfing it potentially allows us to do more of that rather than being blocked by Duskblade's state. This is going to massacre Talon, Wukong, and Shaco in their current state. I know you guys love pretending like Wukong doesn’t exist but you’ll end up having to touch him for he first time since 2014 (the one and only time he ever received any attention). Honestly, Sudden Impact and Duskblade proc are the only reasons he’s decent in this meta. Shaco already feels super weak, but I’ll leave the critiques to his mains and the same goes for Talon mains.
: Meddler with all the talk about Toplane and Botlane is there anything on the radar for assassins right now? Aside from Katarina, Khazix, and Eve all the other assassins in the game are in a bad spot atm. Are there any changes in the works to make assassins good again? They are absolutely terrible right now and if Duskblade nerfs are on the way that hurts Talon and Zed even more.
> [{quoted}](name=Akali Best Waifu,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YdirowFc,comment-id=0031,timestamp=2018-02-16T17:06:58.321+0000) > > Meddler with all the talk about Toplane and Botlane is there anything on the radar for assassins right now? Aside from Katarina, Khazix, and Eve all the other assassins in the game are in a bad spot atm. Are there any changes in the works to make assassins good again? They are absolutely terrible right now and if Duskblade nerfs are on the way that hurts Talon and Zed even more. It also puts the nail in the coffin for Wukong.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 2
Hey Meddler. I wanted your thoughts on Wukong. I know that many of us mains were complaining about him needing a rework, but I have found that the new runes have made him far more viable than he used to be...when played as an assassin. Are his win rates part of why he isn't seen as problematic? He has to have some of the least changes of any champions in the game (if not the least of all time outside of brand new champs). I went from thinking "omg, he really needs a rework!" to "wow, he's pretty great with certain runes, I think this new system fixed a lot of his issues." Is that a good thing? That runes "solved" a champion's problems? He is so much better to play now; it's like night and day. I'm surviving terrible lanes I used to get smashed in, and stomping the easy lanes even harder. Do you think he needs a rework? Most of the divers you've identified in the past are divers that function in no way like Wukong. He is in no way in as bad of shape as Voli was, or Nunu was when he got that buff, nor any of the other champions on the docket. The final patch of season 7 was horrible for him, but the new runes helped improve his weaknesses with a lot of ways to play around decoy (thanks for that btw), so now I feel like I actually have outplay opportunities when before it was just snowball and get too far ahead to catch. Would going full assassin make the most sense? These days going anything but assassin build is a waste of time on him (I tried klepto and unsealed spellbook on him, electrocute is substantially better. Need that burst!). I know a lot of times that silence from the balance team is there isn't a clear direction or a clear need seen at that moment, but this subject has come up a lot. At the end of season 7 it even made the top of page 1 on Reddit. At this point, he has to have one of the most outdated kits, but the runes have made that less painful. What are your thoughts on this? Also, anyone that also plays our boy Wukong, please weigh in on this. I'm genuinely curious because I'm enjoying playing him this season the most since season 4.
Meddler (NA)
: Ryze changes are really unlikely in 7.19. 7.20 is pretty possible, definitely want them out before 7.22.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=xKlZajuu,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-09-15T16:34:13.696+0000) > > Ryze changes are really unlikely in 7.19. 7.20 is pretty possible, definitely want them out before 7.22. Why is a 15th pass at Ryze put ahead of the problematic champions? After a lot of the very successful updates, one would think this is the right time to work on those outdated champs that need love pretty badly. Was Veigar in a bad state? I wasn't aware, but the changes look nice for Veigar players. The Azir adjustment looks like a well thought out plan that needed to happen, I understand why he had to come up. However, why are you wasting time on a perfectly usable champ in Galio? Tuning down numbers makes more sense than rework a champ that was just reworked and is pick or ban in every single pro match with a solid pick and win rate in solo queue. There are a lot of forgotten champions that need a rework very badly. I won't disguise my reason for being unhappy, it's obviously because of Wukong. He has no real passive, he has no role, he is bad in lane, and at least half the roster fills roles better than him. Everything he does well, somebody else does a lot better and us mains only play him because we've perfected his play style and are comfortable on the Monkey King. All of the issues Poppy had that made you rework her, he has to an extent. He has early mana issues ( one of only champs to not get a mana regen or flat mana buff when everyone else did). He has many counters in the top lane. He's not really a tank, nor an assassin, nor is he a fighter. He's kind of all of the above. When he gets ahead he's almost impossible to play against because he bursts you so quickly, especially with the Drakthar passive. He loses lane to almost everyone in the Top lane and the only reason his win rate isn't in the dumpster is because only us mains are really playing him. He's bad in Top lane, he's niche in mid lane (sometimes people dodge just because I took him into a favorable match up mid), and he's got to have one of the worst jungle clears in the game. He needs a rework. Desperately. If it is simply because there's no real known direction to take Wukong, then I can accept that he's a larger scope project and we have to wait. However, just ignoring one of the most out dated champions while releasing expensive skins for him just seems a bit unfair, to put it nicely. I know you can't respond to every champion post, but Wukong needs a rework posts have popped up on the front page of r/lol enough that the community sees it as pretty dire. I would like to be able to pick Wukong without it being a counter pick to Zed or Akali for once. I have a few ideas of what direction he should be taken in, but you're the expert and I expect you and your team have ideas for him. At least I hope.
: >He's nearing Master Yi levels of either stomp or get stomped. hell not close of Yi, u don't understand Wukong. >Edit: Just a typical EU shit talker with no new ideas, just loves shitting on others. Gotcha. Euw shit talker ??? u think playing on NA is better ? Na or not, bronze < me
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yOe5FROl,comment-id=000400000006000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T20:26:43.459+0000) > > hell not close of Yi, u don&#x27;t understand Wukong. > > > Euw shit talker ??? u think playing on NA is better ? Na or not, bronze &lt; me Still have yet to offer a thing to the conversation. You're merely proving my point by continuing to talk the jive. Please, offer a reason why "I don't understand Wukong". Just look on Wukong mains; he's played almost exclusively as an assassin full pen build to delete squishies and dive the backline. How is that a Fighter? He's one of the least tanky divers in the game. He lacks a well defined class. Wukong needing work is nothing new. His kit is outdated. So I ask you, since you're far superior at the game, what are some ideas you have to modernize his kit to put him in a healthy state? He's one of the champions that high elo barely touches, that doesn't sound balanced to me. Same issues Master Yi has.
: Oh god... hope they ll never listen to u
Mind elaborating. I don't think I wrote anything that would break him. He's nearing Master Yi levels of either stomp or get stomped. Any suggestions? Edit: Just a typical EU shit talker with no new ideas, just loves shitting on others. Gotcha.
: Sorry for bothering you Meddler but do you know of any plans for {{champion:35}} ? he is sitting at 55%~56% win rate for weeks with atleast 10% pick rate I really hate this clown T-T
That's a really high play rate! Is that just in EUW? I rarely see him. Maybe you're just much higher elo than me.
: If Divers are next, def Aatrox, Trynd and Xin, but IMO, I think Pantheon should stand alone for VGU, like Fiora/Shen-style VGU
Wukong has to be on that list. He's a fighter with no fighter playstyle whatsoever. Just a caster Assassin with tank stats.
Meddler (NA)
: We haven't made a firm commitment to who we'll be looking at post tanks yet. Divers are certainly a very strong candidate though. If doing divers I think there are quite a few who'd benefit more from the work than Lee Sin (Aatrox and Wukong being top of my mind, Xin Zhao, Panth and others having good arguments for them too).
I have hundreds of games on Wukong and I think he'd actually be pretty simple to "fix". I do believe he is a bit of a stat check. Here's a few ideas in a hope that his problems, both to play and to play against him, that I believe could bring him in line: First off, I think Wukong either needs more CC/Sustain/Tankiness or to just completely accept his full assassin playstyle. Check Wukong mains on Reddit. The best Wukong players out there play the Monkey King as an assassin and unless he's turned into a more CC/tanky champion, he really should just be an assassin. P: His passive should focus around his lore. If shedding some of his AD scaling to balance it, then that makes sense to me but I feel like this is thematically a missed opportunity. The mechanic I have in mind is Wukong's staff grows in AA and especially when he empowers his AA with Crushing blow. This will give Wukong more of a Sun Wukong mythological feel and fit the character's lore far better. "I bet I could reach their base from here". Except he can't because his staff isn't long enough.... Q: Damage would potentially need to be lowered. Perhaps AD scaling. W: Put his current passive on his W as a passive and halve the value. It will still be valuable and necessary for good Cyclone engages, but it won't be overpowered on an assassin. E: Make his AS steroid scale as he auto attacks. If he AA's more, then he gets a longer duration of the AS buff. I believe the damage can stay the same. Or, you lower the CD and lower the damage. It would again add to the tricky nature of the Monkey King and his innate trickery which would be more thematically sound. R: Cyclone from level 6-11 is one of the biggest differences for ultimates in the game. The damage tick at level 6 should be higher and the damage tick at 11 should perhaps be slower. Level 16 seems perfect as I continue to main this champion. Wukong doesn't need to be the best duelist, laner, or tank in the game. He just needs to be a nuisance because that's the whole point of the Monkey King. I think embracing his assassin qualities could make Wukong a wonderful champion that is fun to play and to play against. Also, just some commentary. How is Wukong not the king of the jungle? He's a Monkey! ;) {{champion:62}} : I will be the best =D
1Maza (NA)
: Let's work with those 4 champs you gave. 1. Red bans Rek'sai, Blue picks GP, GP solo carries the game because he's broken as shit. 2. Red bans GP, Blue picks Mord, congrats Red you now have 2 junglers to choose from, good luck using both of them. (aka Blue gets the other anyway) 3. Red bans Mord, Blue picks GP, GP solo carries the game because.. well you should get it by now.
Ban GP, leave everything else open. Build a siege comp, something Morde really struggles with. It's not the horror story many are pretending it is.
: Gragas Disabled for Rest of Worlds 2015
Can't help but feel that GP and Morde should be permanently banned. I wonder what the teams think of this.
: Yes Morde and GP have to be permabanned on red side. Oh wait wasn't it Fnatic that was on Red side and left both of them up? I think it was the same game that this Gragas bug came up in. I don't know though I could be losing my mind I thought I saw that at least.
You're right. Game 2 vs EDG had GP and Morde in the same game and then the bug caused a remake. In remakes teams should be forced to make the same line ups they got before the remake. Seems so unfair to get to redraft.
: There is a reason GP has a 100% pick/ban rate... GP not only counters morde, but he is the strongest champ in the game. It doesn't matter if you pick Morde and Elise, when a mid game GP with two items{{item:3031}} {{item:3078}} can almost one shot anybody on the other team with a single barrel... The champ is completely broken and as much as love that there is going to be variety in the jungle ( I'm a jungle main ), this screws red side horribly.
Ban GP and refuse to ban any of the others. That guarantees 2 key picks for maybe giving up a Morde that falls off hard later in the game. GP is broken, I agree, but this could add a lot of variety to the pick/ban phase.
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Milan Takoyaki

Level 90 (NA)
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