: Can we get a mini season of ARAM ranked? Just to try it ?
Ranked ARAM would be great, but I'm not so sure about doing a month-long test for it. Partly because, with only a month, there might not be enough time for players to play enough games for even semi-accurate ranks. Partly because there's a number of potential ways to implement "Ranked ARAM," and judging the entire concept off the performance of one version might be questionable.
: NERF. FUNNEL. COMP. IN. 3V3.
Removing support items would be a terrible way to try to nerf Hyper meta. I'm just going to quote a [recent-ish discussion on the TT subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/c2ems7/gold_funneling_should_be_removed_from_twisted/ermzoxi/?context=3). >Support items don't make hypers become juggernauts. They only give the support a small income, which is much less impactful than hyper income. If you take that away it won't make hypers weaker, but rather just make supports even more boring to play. It's a really random, spiteful change. The support's income is not where the oppression comes from, but that nerf would seem to be targetting supports to try to make their experience less enjoyable. > >Support items do not add significant strength to hypers, but a layer of gameplay for the support.
Swarovsko (EUW)
: Genuine question: what's a funnel comp?
Do you remember the SR strategy where a solo laner picks a support, and the carry jungler basically camps that lane in-between jungle clears? The idea was to funnel gold and xp onto that jungler (via having access to two resource streams) so that they hit their powerspikes much earlier than intended. It showed up on the Rift for a few patches before Riot [nerfed it in 8.14](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-814-notes#patch-items), claiming it's a "passive and unengaging strategy" that "subverts a lot of normal laning patterns." Note that this strategy is different from duo-bot in SR, where two players share one resource stream. The situation's more complicated in TT though. Instead of "funneling," it's referred to as "Hypercarry meta" or "Support meta," and it's been around for years. The previous designer(s) in charge of TT even went as far as to say that it's good to have a different playstyle be viable alongside the standard "Jungle meta." Naturally, Hyper meta is a controversial topic for 3v3 players. Advocates point to the map's layout encouraging funneling and that the strategy makes for a nice change of pace. Detractors point to Riot trying to remove funneling in SR as well as Hyper's persistent dominance (for years) in 3s. tl;dr: TT has three revenue streams: top-lane, bot-lane, and the jungle. Jungle meta distributes revenue equally so that each player has a source of income. "Funnel comp" or Hyper meta has the jungler take both jungle income and top-lane income.
Kuponya (NA)
: You say "to be fair" but you haven't played an actual version of aram. You've played a fun version where they only use your champions available rather than the full roster. You don't want Ranked ARAM, you want ranked aram - kiddy edition. Don't lie to yourselves and claim you want something without wanting the real thing.
> [{quoted}](name=Kuponya,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-11T19:23:09.492+0000) > > You say "to be fair" but you haven't played an actual version of aram. You've played a fun version where they only use your champions available rather than the full roster. You don't want Ranked ARAM, you want ranked aram - kiddy edition. > Don't lie to yourselves and claim you want something without wanting the real thing. I own every champ, and I'm fine with playing every champ. That doesn't mean that I enjoy every champ equally, but it's an understood risk when queuing for "a mode that gives you a random champ."
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Minarde,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-11T03:52:52.882+0000) > > That's nice for TFT, but it does bring up another question. If TFT's randomness can be (more) standardized, why can't ARAM's? Going back to the champ tier thing, what if a hypothetical ranked ARAM followed TFT's example and only used a seasonal subset of champs? That could cut down on outliers excessively affecting matches. Alternately, having a regular Draft champ select, but each player can only choose from a handful of random offerings of similar power. Another option would be to just throw a bunch of champs onto a shared bench, and each team drafts from there. That's not ARAM. That is a completely different mode. The point of ARAM is you are given a random champion you own and you have to play it. It came about from a virtual "mod" in that the community played custom games titled ARAM and you had to follow those rules.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-11T04:12:44.278+0000) > > That's not ARAM. That is a completely different mode. The point of ARAM is you are given a random champion you own and you have to play it. It came about from a virtual "mod" in that the community played custom games titled ARAM and you had to follow those rules. It depends on how much (and what kind) of a purist you are. After all, all three of my proposed suggestions simply build off of existing features. "Seasonal roster" is an alternate take on the current free+owned champ restriction; "random draft" is roughly equivalent to how rerolls currently work; "shared bench" is just an extension of the reroll Bench. Plus, it's far from a novel concept for ranked to have a different champ select experience. None of the existing ranked queues use Blind Pick, despite it being the default for unranked. As an aside, I'd argue that "champ you own" is a(n unfortunate) tech limitation rather than a core principle of ARAM.
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Minarde,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-11T03:25:32.364+0000) > > What about item randomness in TFT? If your opponents get amazing items while you get trash, you also have no chance. Or perhaps your opponents simply roll their desired champs before you roll yours. Likewise, occasionally you pull the short straw in SR, and randomness's impact is overwhelming (e.g. champ banned, lane counter, enemy snowball). Given that it's statistically improbable for luck to be against you every match, randomness is unimportant *in the long run*. That's no different for ARAM. They already have two fixes for items coming out next patch from what I've seen on various sites. The number and rolls of items that drop are to be standardized more than they are now.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-11T03:33:13.619+0000) > > They already have two fixes for items coming out next patch from what I've seen on various sites. The number and rolls of items that drop are to be standardized more than they are now. That's nice for TFT, but it does bring up another question. If TFT's randomness can be (more) standardized, why can't ARAM's? Going back to the champ tier thing, what if a hypothetical ranked ARAM followed TFT's example and only used a seasonal subset of champs? That could cut down on outliers excessively affecting matches. Alternately, having a regular Draft champ select, but each player can only choose from a handful of random offerings of similar power. Another option would be to just throw a bunch of champs onto a shared bench, and each team drafts from there.
: i agree a ranked aram would cut down on trolls but at same time not everyone is gonna be good with their champs and may rr into champs they still dont know like for example ive gotten draven im not great adc but i def dont know draven and no1 had somethin i could trade ... so used my only rr karthus never played before but how hard could he be .....ik im prob just bad at his kit but i think i went 4 and 12 only 3 full items i had by end not counting boots was {{item:3048}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3135}} and for boots {{item:3020}} idk what i could done differently except uk buy karthus and git good but my team didnt blame me at least cause they seen my champ score was 0 for karthus .... sometimes the free rotation can screw u over like that lol
"Ability to play all/most champs" is a skill that ARAM specifically tests. It's not a flaw with SR if someone can't draft, ward, roam, smite, rotate, etc; that's a personal issue. So someone unable to play their champ is an issue with that player, not ARAM itself.
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=katsumi1,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T21:51:06.589+0000) > > Yes, mate I know how it works.. but let me give you this example. I was playing with my friend and we both had warwick and vayne from beginning. He got them to level 3 while I didn't. So, given by your logic, he shouldnt have been able to get them to level 3 if i had them as well, but he did. So how is that not random or lucky? In some games i got 3 ashes in the shop, while my friends were struggling to get one. Or if someone rerolled dozens of times, in order to get Leona, but i just got her in shop. Literally, how is it not random? 1. Did you both use the same number of rerolls? If not, who used more? If he used more, that’s why he got level 3 and you didn’t - he had more “rolls” in which to get the champions (which is a design of the game). If you used more, but he still got level 3, then what likely happened is you did not correctly determine the amount of champions on the board and plan your composition accordingly. As an example, let’s say there’s a tier 1 champ you want (we’ll say Warwick), so there’s 39 in the game. One player gets a 3 star - that means there’s 30 left. Let’s say you need one more - you have 2 two stars and 2 one stars - this leaves only 22 left in the game. If the other 6 players all have a level 2 (which is a decent average for about level 4-5 and a tier 1 champ as everyone’s figuring out their builds), there’s only 10 left. Out of all tier 1 champions, you’re more likely to roll one that has been *less* picked than you are one that’s been *more* picked. So given that many of them had been picked (by at least your friend, and likely others given Warwick and vayne being contested champions), the statistics show that you were much less likely to get that champion. You made the choice to forego a change in strategy and continue trying for two of the most contested champions even when you should’ve known that you were better off changing. This is not the fault of randomness - it’s your fault for not using the statistics to your advantage and playing around statistics. 2. I have not denied that it is random. I have said that the randomness present does not affect your chances of winning **if you play properly**. If you’re like you and look for two specific champions from the very beginning, that’s your problem because that’s not how the game is designed to be played. If you are never selling 2/3 star champions to change up your build simply because you spent time/gold to get them, even when it’s obvious you need to change to another strategy, again that’s your fault. If you can’t get 2/3 stars of certain champions yet you’re rerolling 5 times per round, but you’re seeing a different champion pop up every single reroll, it’s time to change your strategy instead of continuing to reroll for the 1% chance or less you get what you’re looking for. 3. Summoner’s Rift is random as well - it’s virtually random what champions the enemy will ban, it’s virtually random what pick order you will be and what information you will have to pick, and it’s virtually random who will get first blood (either you or enemy). The issue is that this randomness does not greatly affect your ability to win, because it is designed to be played around. In ARAM, the randomness is such that it literally cannot be played around. If the enemy team gets the top 5 tier champions in the game right now, and your team gets the lowest 5 tier, there’s simply no chance. If the enemy team gets two champions with good synergy and you don’t, there’s simply no playing around it. The randomness in ARAM is such that it’s simply not possible for it to *not* have an impact - whereas the randomness in SR and TFT are such that if you play properly the randomness is unimportant and has virtually no impact on your chances of winning.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ETaj6LKK,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T22:00:00.314+0000) > > In ARAM, the randomness is such that it literally cannot be played around. If the enemy team gets the top 5 tier champions in the game right now, and your team gets the lowest 5 tier, there’s simply no chance. If the enemy team gets two champions with good synergy and you don’t, there’s simply no playing around it. The randomness in ARAM is such that it’s simply not possible for it to *not* have an impact - whereas the randomness in SR and TFT are such that if you play properly the randomness is unimportant and has virtually no impact on your chances of winning. What about item randomness in TFT? If your opponents get amazing items while you get trash, you also have no chance. Or perhaps your opponents simply roll their desired champs before you roll yours. Likewise, occasionally you pull the short straw in SR, and randomness's impact is overwhelming (e.g. champ banned, lane counter, enemy snowball). Given that it's statistically improbable for luck to be against you every match, randomness is unimportant *in the long run*. That's no different for ARAM.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Minarde,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=wLi7zA61,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-10T00:35:40.210+0000) > > That distinction's highly dependent on individual differences (e.g. experience, skill, temperament). You're right that ARAM's randomness is front-loaded whereas TFT's randomness is spread throughout the match. However, there's opportunities to "make decisions that affect how the randomness affects you" both in TFT and in ARAM. Sure, there's times when you outright lose in champ select in ARAM, but there's also times in TFT when you get absolute trash and your opponents get perfect rolls. > > I think part of the reason some people feel more agency in TFT is because you're solo. There's always the option to blame someone else in ARAM, but in TFT, the consequences of your personal decisions are more noticeable. Moreover, "victory" and "defeat" are less rigid with the 1-8 ranking. Lastly, even if things go terribly wrong, you can simply leave the match without any consequences. > > Meanwhile, ARAM is handicapped by years of Riot neglect and a casual connotation. As such, players are that much more likely to give up and blame randomness instead of actually trying to win. > > Basically, rather than "TFT is poker and ARAM is a coin flip," it'd be a bit more accurate to say "TFT is Hold 'em and ARAM is Five-Card Draw." TFT involves small gambles over the course of a match, while ARAM involves adapting to your initial situation. If one is fitting for ranked, the other should be as well. First of all, the aggregate of a person's "individual differences" is MMR, the assumption being that the 10 players brought together are of similar levels of ability. Aside from situations where a person's ability has been estimated incorrectly by the system (a smurf on a new account, for example), It is extremely unlikely that you play your way out of a "bad draw" in ARAM. That said, the more pressing issue is that you have no way to interact with the randomness in ARAM. The coin has been flipped before you even see what the opponent has, and afterwards it's just slugging it out. In TFT, even if you don't get what you want, you have choices, and decisions you make can change your position. The randomness is a randomness that you can interact with. You can slow your opponents by grabbing up champions they need even if you don't need them. If your plan is shared by 4 other people, you can make the call to change gears. You can choose to play weak to take advantage of losing streaks, build up your economy, grab the best choices from the carousel, and spring back into the game. And by the way, poker isn't about the hands, it's about the betting. Whether your hands are strong or weak in poker, you can win, because the game is about psyching your opponents out. The same is not true with ARAM. Note: The only form of randomness in TFT that I think should be tweaked is in items. Against an equally skilled opponent, having a massive item disadvantage is crushing. Once that's tweaked, I think TFT is good to go for ranked.
Just like you have choices and decisions in TFT, you also have them in ARAM. During champ select, you can figure out damage distribution, teamfight role assignments, and maybe even win condition. Afterwards, rather than "just slugging it out," you adjust builds and roles and actually try to execute your plans. As such, I fully admit the poker analogy falls short, but I'm not the one who originally brought up poker. You can't win without some luck in TFT either. By the same argument that it's "unlikely to play your way out of a 'bad draw' in ARAM," it's equally unlikely to do so in TFT. With that said, the point that stands out most to me is the idea that "TFT would be ready for ranked *after some tweaks.*" If Ranked TFT gets the benefit of hypothetical changes, then Ranked ARAM should be considered under the same lens. Maybe it's adjustments to champ roster to address outliers or barrier to entry. Maybe it's adjustments to champ distribution to cut down on teamcomp imbalances. Maybe it's adjustments to champ select to give players more opportunities to respond to the randomness. Regardless of the specific change(s), it's contradictory to disqualify Ranked ARAM based on its current state while approving Ranked TFT based on a possible future state. Even more so when considering that all of the existing ranked queues have different features from their unranked versions.
Subdue (NA)
: TFT is random like poker is random. There are strategies you can employ to deal with and take advantage of the randomness. You're able to make decisions that affect how the randomness affects you. ARAM is like flipping a coin. You have very little control over the random aspect (champ select) and limited ability to play around the randomness.
That distinction's highly dependent on individual differences (e.g. experience, skill, temperament). You're right that ARAM's randomness is front-loaded whereas TFT's randomness is spread throughout the match. However, there's opportunities to "make decisions that affect how the randomness affects you" both in TFT and in ARAM. Sure, there's times when you outright lose in champ select in ARAM, but there's also times in TFT when you get absolute trash and your opponents get perfect rolls. I think part of the reason some people feel more agency in TFT is because you're solo. There's always the option to blame someone else in ARAM, but in TFT, the consequences of your personal decisions are more noticeable. Moreover, "victory" and "defeat" are less rigid with the 1-8 ranking. Lastly, even if things go terribly wrong, you can simply leave the match without any consequences. Meanwhile, ARAM is handicapped by years of Riot neglect and a casual connotation. As such, players are that much more likely to give up and blame randomness instead of actually trying to win. Basically, rather than "TFT is poker and ARAM is a coin flip," it'd be a bit more accurate to say "TFT is Hold 'em and ARAM is Five-Card Draw." TFT involves small gambles over the course of a match, while ARAM involves adapting to your initial situation. If one is fitting for ranked, the other should be as well.
: > [{quoted}](name=Minarde,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=in2pogJc,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-07-02T00:55:05.808+0000) > > But "ability to play most champions" is a skill that ARAM specifically tests. It's not too different from wave management, teamfighting, or warding for Ranked SR or adapting to items/comps in TFT. Not everyone is good at those skills, but the players who are will (tend to) have a higher ranking/MMR. That's fair, but then you have to consider compositions. With completely randomized compositions for each team, it could be a situation where one team gets 5 supports and the other has a fleshed out composition (Solid frontline, solid damage dealers, and a support), in which case the full composition has a massive advantage over the 5 support team. Like I said in my other reply, Riot could implement a system like this: A) All players have all champions unlocked for the mode B) Each player is assigned a role once they enter champion select and only gets champions for that role (Person 1 gets tanks, Person 2 gets assassins, etc) C) Players can trade with their teammates (Trading gives you both the champion and the role) I think this would be a good system for a Ranked ARAM, as it guarantees that both teams have real compositions while also allowing players to trade for their desired role.
> [{quoted}](name=KatMainWannabe,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=in2pogJc,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-07-03T10:24:19.124+0000) > > That's fair, but then you have to consider compositions. With completely randomized compositions for each team, it could be a situation where one team gets 5 supports and the other has a fleshed out composition (Solid frontline, solid damage dealers, and a support), in which case the full composition has a massive advantage over the 5 support team. Like I said in my other reply, Riot could implement a system like this: > A) All players have all champions unlocked for the mode > B) Each player is assigned a role once they enter champion select and only gets champions for that role (Person 1 gets tanks, Person 2 gets assassins, etc) > C) Players can trade with their teammates (Trading gives you both the champion and the role) > > I think this would be a good system for a Ranked ARAM, as it guarantees that both teams have real compositions while also allowing players to trade for their desired role. I'd be okay with assigning or even drafting roles, as it would help avoid lopsided teamcomps. On the other hand, a lot of ARAM's appeal is in guiding/piloting lopsided teamcomps to victory. Personally, I'd prefer drafting specific champions (i.e. same as existing Draft, but players each choose from 3 random champs of similar power rather than from the full roster) to maintain an amount of control over teamcomps without explicitly standardizing teamcomps. Regardless, the main point is that the basic concept of "Ranked ARAM" is possible. Specific implementation details (e.g. Are there bans? Do promos exist? Are all champions unlocked? What account requirements for the queue?) can come later. With [ranked TFT set to launch in the next patch](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/riot-games/announcements/teamfight-tactics-showdown) and TFT having similar random elements as ARAM, Riot's old reasoning of "randomness and ranked is a questionable combination" clearly no longer applies. As such, if TFT is worthy of ranked, why not ARAM as well?
Dokkaebi (EUNE)
: Throwback to Rito refusing ranked ARAM because of the RNG factor
Why can't everyone just get along? Clearly, most people here enjoy at least one of the two modes. Both TFT and ARAM fans seem to accept that "my preferred mode has a lot of randomness and RNG, yet it's not purely luck-based because there's opportunities for skill to shine through and make up for bad luck." Is it that hard to imagine that that concept applies to your unfavored mode as well?
: ARAM Ranked but you choose your champion
All Draft All Mid would be boring, since it'd immediately stagnate into the same 20-30 champs being pick/ban every game. However, "Random Draft" would be great. Basically, "just make a ranked ARAM where you ban champions and then choose champions the same as in ranked normally," but each player has to choose from three random champs (of similar power) rather than from the entire roster. No rerolls, no bench. It's basically the spirit of ARAM combined with the experience of Draft.
: Poll: do you play Twisted Treeline?
I kinda like Treeline (more than SR at least), but I don't play it much. The main reason is that the more you grind and the higher up the ladder you get, the more likely you are to run into Support meta. I don't dislike its existence, but I just personally don't enjoy playing it.
: Because not every player can play every champion. It’s that simple. Say you’re a tank main but get an assassin - two different play styles with nothing to do with each other, and you’re likely to know nothing about what to do with your champ, so your team is essentially fighting a 4v5. In TFT, the only RNG you’re worrying about is with times. You adapt your comp constantly, and the only real skill you can put out is through unit positioning and item placement. You can consistently play TFT at the same level of skill, but not every champion in ARAM at the same level of skill.
> [{quoted}](name=KatMainWannabe,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=in2pogJc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-01T20:20:48.793+0000) > > Because not every player can play every champion. It’s that simple. Say you’re a tank main but get an assassin - two different play styles with nothing to do with each other, and you’re likely to know nothing about what to do with your champ, so your team is essentially fighting a 4v5. In TFT, the only RNG you’re worrying about is with times. You adapt your comp constantly, and the only real skill you can put out is through unit positioning and item placement. You can consistently play TFT at the same level of skill, but not every champion in ARAM at the same level of skill. But "ability to play most champions" is a skill that ARAM specifically tests. It's not too different from wave management, teamfighting, or warding for Ranked SR or adapting to items/comps in TFT. Not everyone is good at those skills, but the players who are will (tend to) have a higher ranking/MMR.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tormentula,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=14JkABIY,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-29T22:37:43.353+0000) > > Tbf i think the only reason it gets played more than dominion is due to the fact dominion never had any tie in to competitive. TTL always was involved in getting rewards if you got gold, this leads to players genuinely just playing for their season rewards or climbing to a peak rank, while dominion there was no point ever taking it seriously if there was no reward and there was no ladder for winning. Some just play TTL because its a lot easier than rift too once you understand the item differences and the pick/bans. there couldn't be competitive mode in dominion anyway the snowball in that mode was almost impossible to overcome people that were farming were getting insanely strong and the buff in the middle was insane for bursting ie it had way too many variables going on for it that once you get going there is no coming back in the game people played dominion initially because it was a fun mode to play in casually and the queues initially were low but once queues started going 5min+ people stopped playing more and more and at one point queues were 15+ min long and half of the players were accounts level botting
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=14JkABIY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-30T01:25:15.977+0000) > > there couldn't be competitive mode in dominion anyway > the snowball in that mode was almost impossible to overcome > people that were farming were getting insanely strong and the buff in the middle was insane for bursting > ie it had way too many variables going on for it that once you get going there is no coming back in the game > > people played dominion initially because it was a fun mode to play in casually and the queues initially were low > but once queues started going 5min+ people stopped playing more and more > and at one point queues were 15+ min long and half of the players were accounts level botting EUW meta sounds weird. Snowballing in Dominion was significantly less than any other mode (barring maybe ARAM), at least in NA. Farming (i.e. bot-laners) had some gold advantage, but not to an insurmountable extent. Plus, my queue times were almost never longer than 5 minutes. I will concede that 5man premades had ridiculous queue times, but as far as I'm aware, 5mans have longer queue times in every mode.
: The Future of ARAM (?)
I'd personally prefer a "Random Draft" champ select for Ranked ARAM. Same process as the existing Draft champ select, but, rather than choosing from the full roster during pick phase, players have to choose from three random champs (of similar power). No rerolls, no champ bench. By doing champ select this way, it adds an extra skill test via teamcomp drafting while simultaneously combating the ~~mis~~conception of "games being won in champ select" by giving players more agency during the draft. It also maintains the feel and flow of existing Ranked Draft, but with the spirit of ARAM.
: I played the shit out of Dominion and I know a lot of people, who played it as well. We didn't really care about balance in Dominion, because it was fun to play it. Sure the community wasn't interested in it but the problem I had with League was that normal games, ranked games and ARAMs weren't fun at all. Most of the players didn't care about balancing because it had it's own meta which was nearly affected by SR changes.
I played a bunch of Dominion too, as well as followed the tournament scene. Yeah, we stuck with the map because it was more fun than the rest of League, but the lack of balancing was still a prominent complaint. Plus, if I remember correctly, SR changes never meaningfully affected Dom's meta. For instance, Kassadin stayed nearly 100% pick/ban until map-specific balancing started, and playing Thresh was almost trolling until map changes made him almost broken OP. Maybe it's an NA/EUW meta difference? Either way, Riot's neglect wasn't limited to balancing. Riot never managed to address the fundamental disconnect of Dominion being designed as a competitive game mode, yet Dominion launching with no competitive support. Furthermore, there was the recurring silence and absence of any official communication for months. Tryndamere, Morello, et al. would promise features or improved support, and then virtually nothing would change. Nome and ManWolfAxeBoss did what they could, but the problems extended way beyond their paygrade.
: the reason why i think that you havent played crystal scar.... is because crystal scar isnt a gamemode, its a map. dominion was the gamemode also, it failed because less than 0.5% of players played it...there was not a large enough community to have balanced matches, and riot couldnt spend time balancing a game that the community never played, so riot made the decision to drop it. a game mode that is clogging their queue times has already had a much bigger impact than something like dominion did, so should be considered in a different pool, say like ARAM. If you had compared it to that, that would've made much more sense
>dominion was the gamemode >also, it failed because less than 0.5% of players played it...there was not a large enough community to have balanced matches, and riot couldnt spend time balancing a game that the community never played, so riot made the decision to drop it. Small correction here: even Riot acknowledged that they dropped the ball on supporting Dominion. Supposedly, they internally pivoted towards growing SR and LCS around the time of Dom's launch. That's (partially) why Dom never really got any balance patches. Claiming that Riot dropped Dominion because "[they] couldn't spend time balancing a game that the community never played" is a massive oversimplification that overlooks a significant part of the situation. Riot didn't spend resources on Dominion because the community didn't play, *and the community didn't play Dominion because Riot didn't spend resources on it.* As a side note, comparing TFT to ARAM would've made much *less* sense. The guy you're replying to is arguing for game modes that failed because of Riot's lack of support. ARAM succeeded despite a lack of support.
: Mordekaiser on Twisted Treelines
Double Dorans just released [their Builds feature](https://www.doubledorans.com/Builds), which might be helpful. Skimming through, shield + boots/ruby/amp seems the most popular start for non-Hyper Morde.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: Too random for that, i think. Mastery tokens should, in theory, show how well you a character. On ARAM, you can get S just because your team rolled better than your opponents.
Yes, Mastery tokens should, in theory, show how well you know a champ, *but that's not how the current system works*. There's nothing stopping a player from simply spamming games until they luck out and get an S. Someone could even spam Blind Pick SR and hope that they roll a better team than their opponent. Why is ARAM (and Twisted Treeline) being held to a higher standard than Summoner's Rift with respect to Champ Mastery? It doesn't make any sense to disqualify ARAM for something that's deemed acceptable for SR.
Lorehorn (NA)
: Support meta is not the same as funnel meta. Period.
Could you elaborate? As far as I'm aware, they both refer to the same thing. TT players typically refer to it as "hyper meta" or "support meta" while SR players call it "funneling" or "funnel meta."
Dosey (NA)
: What would you have riot change about ARAM or Treeline or Dominion with a bigger team on them? those are all finished modes and i'm sure this mode will have a small team working on it post releases also. Most of the work is in the construction of modes not the up keep.
Mainly criticizing the idea that 30 people is "not an acknowledgeable amount of resources." If 30 people is considered negligible, then what does "one guy, during his lunch break" count as? Because that was the extent of Treeline and Dominion (and ARAM as well?) support for a good chunk of time. I totally agree with you that upkeep isn't nearly as costly as construction. However, Riot has historically been absolutely abysmal at supporting alternate game modes after their release beyond bare minimum maintenance. As a side note, for Dominion in particular, a bigger team might have helped reduce the spaghetti code. For instance, the personal score system consisted entirely of occasional floating text and a stat on the scoreboard with zero gameplay impact. It was generally considered useless at best and harmfully misleading at worst. However, years later, personal score couldn't be removed because it was too ingrained in Dominion's code, and removing it might break something.
Myrlian (NA)
: Ranked ARAM (How to make it work.)
I think the changes would be viable, but not preferable. Champion whitelists have a strong possibility to reduce champ variety, which would make ARAM feel much more stagnant and stale. Filtering by champ familiarity via Mastery has similar issues, but could work (though performance grades are questionable). Given that wide champ pools are generally encouraged in ARAM, there should probably be some sort of incentive to actually have a wider champ pool (beyond the bare minimum). Personally, a card game-style "Arena Draft" champ select is most appealing to me. Same process as existing Draft queues, but, rather than being presented with a full champ roster, players have to select their champ from a handful of random options (of similar power level). Since picks are locked in, subsequent players are ~~forced~~ able to adapt to the changing situation (e.g. if the enemy team is drafting hard engage, full poke probably isn't the best idea). Plus, "Arena Draft" wouldn't need much, if any, UI work, and champ select maintains the same flow as other ranked queues.
: Other gamemodes give us a break from the broken state of other games, and bring joy.
>I, along with everyone who doesn't main Twisted treeline, would rather play Nexus Blitz. I've never mained Treeline, but I'd still take it over Blitz any day. Nexus Blitz just felt like it combined the most frustrating aspects of the other game modes: Treeline's snowballing, ARAM's randomness and lack of player agency, and SR's laning phase and isolation. Meanwhile, the main positives about Nexus Blitz that I've heard people bring up are that a) it's short and b) it lets you choose your champ. That's a laughably low bar to clear.
: Because this is Riot's game launcher maybe? Blizzard also has a launcher that launches Starcraft 2 and Hearthstone, doesn't mean a card game and an RTS are the same genre.
Except Starcraft 2 and Hearthstone have separate installs: I can download updates and play one without ever touching the other. If TFT is being bundled with the League patch, then even Riot's handling TFT more as an alternate game mode than as its own distinct game.
Khanzax (EUW)
: A way to introduce a beta for 'Ranked Aram' properly.
I think a card game-esque "Arena Draft" would work better than doing a (role-based) whitelist. Whitelists have a strong possibility of reducing champion variety, making ARAM feel much more stagnant. Plus, it significantly limits randomness and adds an extra meta-gaming aspect (i.e. adding "good" champs to drown out the "bad" ones), which I personally dislike. In contrast, "Arena Draft" would function identically to existing draft options, but, rather than choosing from the full champ roster, players choose from three random champs (maybe of similar power?). Bans and trades are possible, but no rerolls or champ bench. Doing it this way maintains the "Ranked Draft"-feel of champ select while adapting it for ARAM. Additionally, by having sequential picks, it indirectly emphasizes the importance of team composition. The removal of rerolls and the bench prevents teams from having too much control over randomness and teamcomps. Plus, unlike whitelists, none of this "Arena Draft" idea should require any extra UI elements for the client.
: why create a post on this when you know full well Riot has stated they will never do it? It detracts from the whole point, even as a "For fun" conversation, because you get people convinced or hyped for something that will not occur
Riot's stated that they have no plans for ranked ARAM, not that they'll never do it. And Riot's changed their minds about things previously (map-specific balancing, and ARAM balancing in particular, being examples). Creating a post like this helps to show continued playerbase interest in an idea. Plus, if enough people do get convinced or hyped, then it's more likely for Riot to rethink the situation.
Saezio (EUNE)
: I have played over 8k arams and what I feel like is the most problematic part about aram being ranked is how different games are between low and high aram MMR. Or between people that just happen to get champs they are extremely proficient on vs people that may have rolled a good champ for aram but they are not good on the champ. For example if someone has 1mil points on WW and someone that has 1k points on WW the pick will feel vastly different for their respective team.
I don't see how MMR differences is an ARAM-specific problem. It's an issue for SR too (e.g. Mastery Yi), albeit with more balance levers there. Nor do I understand how variations in player experience is a problem. How's it any different from someone playing a champ because it's their main versus someone playing a champ because it's FotM?
: Scarra said in his impressions video (he along with other NA content creators got to play test this last week) that there's only a small team of around 30 people working on this. So no, resources are not being put towards this, at least not an acknowledgeable amount of resources. Yes, there's a lot of shit wrong with the game at the moment but in the end it's their IP and they can see fit to do whatever they want with it.
>there's only a small team of around 30 people working on this. So no, resources are not being put towards this, at least not an acknowledgeable amount of resources. That honestly sounds like a larger team than Treeline, ARAM, and Dominion, combined, have had since their releases.
: Teamfight Tactics
While it's certainly nice to (finally) have more options in League, going straight to planning ranked for a new mode is incredibly frustrating for fans of League's existing alternate modes. Treeline's been struggling along with effectively just maintenance for literally years. Meanwhile, ARAM fans have been asking for ranked for years. It's also been years since Champion Mastery 6 and 7 came out, yet Twisted Treeline and ARAM still don't have access to it. It's great that Riot's trying to expand the League experience, but please stop neglecting the existing League experience.
Krofinn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EoE7ZyAg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-09T19:39:46.713+0000) > > Some champions just don't work well on other maps. Kindrend and ivern for example don't/barely have passives on aram Shyvana ACTUALLY has no passive on ARAM
She does though. Ever since [6.24 back in December 2016](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-624-notes#patch-shyvana), Shyvana gets resists from tower/Vilemaw kills on ARAM/TT, respectively.
Tantarboy (EUNE)
: I'm a bit afraid of what will be said about TT honestly, i really don't want to see it gone
Pretty much. On one hand, "Hey, Riot remembered Treeline!" On the other hand, "Oh no, Riot brought up Treeline." Hopefully it's good news and not "We're retiring this mode, so have another summoner icon to add to the pile. Now go play SR." again.
: Please. Make. 1v1. 2v2. Ranked. Gamemode.
>1v1 would not only give players an outlet free of this solo queue torture, it could also help give Riot a clue as to how good players are. I'm not saying 1v1 rank should supersede solo queue, but I'm saying if someone is hardstuck iron 1v1, they shouldnt place Silver after a few lucky placements on summoners rift. If a player is Master in 1v1, they shouldn't place gold on summoners rift. A major problem with this reasoning is that it *doesn't* "give Riot a clue as to how good players are." 1v1 is a different game mode from SR and, accordingly, emphasizes a different skillset than SR. There is some overlap and some skills that carry over, but it's far from being equivalent. Being good/bad in one mode only implies that someone is good/bad in another. For instance, even if someone is an Iron 1v1 player, they could legitimately be a Silver SR player. Likewise for a Master 1v1 player being Gold SR. Plus, there's the fact that there's currently no permanent 1v1 queue. Jumping straight to adding a ranked 1v1 queue would be an unusual step. If anything, ARAM would be more suitable for a ranked addition, given its proven playerbase.
: Let's Talk About ARAMs Ranked
It'd be nice to have all champs enabled, counterbalanced by Ranked ARAM having a higher summoner level requirement. Compared to regular ARAM, enabling all champs shouldn't have as much impact on Riot's revenue, since you'd have to actually earn the privilege rather than having it be available almost as soon as you've made your account. Maybe require a minimum number of champs owned as well to further reinforce that point. Additionally, champ select should use a "Random Draft"-style modeled after "Sealed Arena Draft" of card games. Same progression as regular Draft Pick (i.e. simultaneous bans -> sequential picks), but each player can only choose from three random champs rather than the entire champ pool. No bench, no rerolls. Doing champ select this way adds another skilltest via drafting and adapting to previous picks. Additionally, providing three possible champs is functionally-equivalent to providing two guaranteed rerolls, without letting the entire team spam rerolls to pick and choose teamcomps. Possibly extend placements and remove promos too, to reduce the frustration from bad luck.
: Chromas for Mastery 7
One problem with adding more stuff onto Champion Mastery is that high Masteries (i.e. level 6 and 7) are still arbitrarily restricted to classic Summoner's Rift. Mastery tokens continue to be disabled for ARAM, Twisted Treeline (including ranked), and RGM modes (whenever those are around). Revitalizing Champ Mastery would be nice, but not when segments of League's playerbase are still locked out of the feature.
: Ranked Aram
I'm personally in favor of Ranked ARAM, but "luck-based," "training," and "practice" are really weird things to be associating with the concept. There's definitely a degree of luck in ARAM, but claiming the mode is based on luck is a reach. Likewise, you could be using ARAM to train and practice, but you could also be doing that on any other game mode. Testing players' skills with a variety of champs and teams would be a major strength of Ranked ARAM. It's a refreshing change from existing ranked options, where players are constantly encouraged to specialize in a particular position or champion. On the other hand, Ranked ARAM requires a shift in player philosophy to accept the idea that "not every game is winnable" (i.e. luck is a factor).
: >How is this not the case in ARAM? If anything, it's more applicable in ARAM than in SR because you're actually with your team the entire game. There's only so much influence you can exert from the other side of the Rift. You have much more influence on summoners rift because of the macro decisions that do affect your teammates. You can pull pressure from other lanes and you can then join your team when the enemy is still trying to handle the wave you left them to, effectively creating a numbers advantage. That affects your team way more than you can ever affect it in aram. >"Random champion" isn't a downside when it's one of the skills being tested. Yes it is because it's not one of the skills. It's just a variable that you have to deal with. As an example, if you get someone like yuumi or nunu, you are SO heavily dependent on your teammates and the enemies that your own skill doesn't actually matter at all. >Following that, "random teammates with random champs" is handled by MMR. That part isn't handled by mmr at all. Random teammates are but them with random champions is not. And mmr doesn't have any meaning at this point anyway. Everyone could have exactly 1500 mmr and yet their skill would be completely different because someone climbed with pure luck while someone else showed more skill, making the games horrible coinflips and again, making a rank pointless. We can see it in current aram. It does have mmr system in place and yet players from all skill level are playing in the same match. There is no point in a visible rank as it doesn't represent anything. >If ARAM is mostly luck (where did you get that "80% luck based" number from anyway?), then luck will even out eventually. That's how randomness works. That 80% is just to represent how huge the amount of luck involved is. Don't take it literally... And no, that's not how randomness works. Nothing forces it to even out. That's what makes it random. You could ALWAYS get the worst champions. It's not likely, but it's possible. THAT is how randomness works. It is LIKELY that the luck will even out after a LARGE amount of games but it's not at all guaranteed. Also, as i said before, the amount of games for that to happen is so big that no one is going to play that many games which means basically no one's luck manages to even out (outside of a VERY small minority).
I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. It's becoming increasingly obvious that our individual perspectives are wildly and irreconcilably different. So I'm bowing out here. Thanks for the discussion. It was interesting.
: >Blaming ARAM's randomness is similar to someone blaming their teammates for not being able to climb. Not true. Your gameplay affects how your teammates play and you can choose the champion and the role to maximize your chances of winning. You can also use proper map movement to get favorable fights and objectives. You can't do any of that in aram. Random champion, random teammates with random champions and one lane with no way to win with macro. Even mechanics do not matter all the time because it's comp reliant. With a mode with such a great amount of randomness that you can't control (aram is over 80% luck based), the amount of games you would have to play to "even out the luck factor" is astronomical and no-one is ever going to play that many games of league even if they play it their entire life. Not to mention the whole evening out thing is just a probability. It might never happen in reality (and most likely won't). The amount of luck involved in card games etc is still way smaller than in something like aram.
>Your gameplay affects how your teammates play How is this not the case in ARAM? If anything, it's more applicable in ARAM than in SR because you're actually with your team the entire game. There's only so much influence you can exert from the other side of the Rift. I agree with you that "ARAM rank" wouldn't reflect the same skills as "SR rank." It obviously shouldn't because they're separate maps with different skillsets. "Random champion" isn't a downside when it's one of the skills being tested. In contrast to existing ranked queues, the emphasis is on a player's average skill with any champion rather than skill with one or two champions. Plus, rewarding generalists, rather than specialists (e.g. OTP), is something that League and Riot have been struggling with. Following that, "random teammates with random champs" is handled by MMR. There's less macro, sure, but much more required adapting to variation. >Not to mention the whole evening out thing is just a probability. It might never happen in reality (and most likely won't). To be blunt, this is a weird statement. *If* ARAM is mostly luck (where did you get that "80% luck based" number from anyway?), then luck *will* even out eventually. That's how randomness works. It's certainly possible there'll be some outliers, but most cases will be fine. If it "most likely [doesn't even out]," then that implies it's not random and thus not luck-based.
: How is trying to the make the champions closer in strength anything but a positive?
The intent is good, but the implementation is questionable. There's not much nuance available in straight % changes. It might make more sense if you imagine that philosophy applied to Summoner's Rift. Say, for instance, Mastery Yi is weak in high-MMR, but strong in low-MMR. Straight number buffs would make him balanced for players who know how to play against him and OP for players who don't. Vice versa for nerfs. That's one criticism of the current ARAM balance changes. They're seemingly MMR-agnostic.
: >If they weren't sure that even SR could maintain both Draft and Blind, wouldn't ARAM's playerbase size naturally also be suspect? Not necessarily as matchmaking in aram is not even nearly as important. Queue times are affected by matchmaking and aram can have faster queue times with less players. >Ranked would help further differentiate the queues while potentially drawing in new interest. Furthermore, it'd allow for a cleaner separation of "casual" and "competitive" environments rather than having to maintain the current chaos of "everyone, get in here!" But ranked aram will never exist because of its overwhelming amount of randomness. Ranked is supposed to rank players according to their skill level, not according to their levels of luck. The bans wouldn't make the mode more competitive and that's not what the bans are for. They are just there to remove frustration, which the mode needs.
It's true that there's a large amount of randomness in ARAM. Good thing ranked uses a ladder system that's based around playing a (large) number of games, which reduces the impact of luck while emphasizing the consistency of player skill. Blaming ARAM's randomness is similar to someone blaming their teammates for not being able to climb. Occasionally, you get dealt a bad hand, but luck eventually balances out, and you'll (probably) end up where you belong. Speaking of bad hands, there's plenty of precedent for competitive games with high-randomness. Card games abound, such as Magic and Hearthstone. "Traditional" card games like poker have existed for even longer.
: It doesn't (and shouldn't) have to be ranked. A queue type is a queue type. SR has ranked solo, ranked flex, normal blind and normal draft. Aram has just aram and it can afford a second one. The talk about normal draft and blind are only existing in smaller servers with less players. Even EUNE got their normal draft 24/7 back (if i remember correctly, someone from eune should confirm). Point is, aram can definitely support both types.
Although you're right that larger servers got SR Draft back (I think), the fact that Riot was concerned about queue health is, well, concerning. By all accounts, SR has [significantly more players than ARAM](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/k0OgvRkx-quick-gameplay-thoughts-october-10). If they weren't sure that even SR could maintain both Draft and Blind, wouldn't ARAM's playerbase size naturally also be suspect? Ranked would help further differentiate the queues while potentially drawing in new interest. Furthermore, it'd allow for a cleaner separation of "casual" and "competitive" environments rather than having to maintain the current chaos of "everyone, get in here!"
: Let's hope they make them permanent. Or make it rotating or make 2 different aram queues (aram doesn't have a long queue time anyway so they could afford to do it). There are just some champions that should be disabled in aram.
>make 2 different aram queues (aram doesn't have a long queue time anyway so they could afford to do it) Only if one of those queues is ranked. Otherwise you end up with the "Blind Pick vs. Draft" situation, and Riot wasn't confident that even Summoner's Rift could support both queues.
: Why does everyone hate Banshee's Veil in ARAM?
It's a combination of other items being more generally useful than Banshee's and Banshee's passive being awkward to properly use. If you rush Banshee's against a mage rushing Luden's, they're probably going to be more useful than you. Sure, the MR is nice, but Banshee's offers no mana. While you have to carefully ration your spells, the enemy can more freely toss out waveclear and poke. Then as a second (or later) item, Banshee's has to compete with other important buys like Morello's, Liandry's, Hat, or Void. As for the passive, Luden's splash procs Banshee's shield. Effectively, Banshee's is often going to be on cooldown unless you're avoiding allies while also dodging enemy spells. More reasonable to attempt in the late-game when towers have fallen and there's more space to maneuver.
: theres a difference between flaming and straight up insulting, but also flaming doesnt win games, but it definitely doesnt lose them either
>theres a difference between flaming and straight up insulting What's the difference? I've always seen those two terms used more or less interchangeably.
AUHamer (NA)
: Why no love for twisted treeline?
> the complete lack of consideration for this map seems a big oversight Considering Treeline is the only map excluded from event Pass token drops, it unfortunately seems more intentional than just an oversight. Plus the complete absence of any information from Riot on future plans for TT.
: Ranked-Ram
It'd certainly be nice, but I doubt we'll see it anytime soon. Ranked ARAM would require dev time (e.g. rewards, in-client profile work, queue functionality). Meanwhile, Champion Mastery has been around for years now, but tokens are still arbitrarily restricted to classic Summoner's Rift.
: The question is too general, of course they don't need to unlock all champs in all game modes, but if it were ARAM/TT only then I would figure it wouldn't effect anything. Especially since I'm pretty sure their main revenue are the skins they sell, not the purchasing of champs.
Presumably "unlocking all champs" *was* only with respect to ARAM, since Mort only handles non-Rift stuff. Plus, the rest of his post and the topic itself was all about ARAM changes. So I figure someone at Riot did the math and concluded that it'd be a non-negligible impact on revenue.
Infernape (EUW)
: I mean Riot's never going to remove it. Summoner's Rift _is_ League. The entire game is balanced around it.
> [{quoted}](name=Infernape,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NI5tqRFl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-13T03:21:34.473+0000) > > I mean Riot's never going to remove it. Summoner's Rift _is_ League. The entire game is balanced around it. I interpreted OP's complaint less as "Remove SR" and more as "Stop forcing us to play SR, and give us more options in League." Which isn't unreasonable. I mean, League's coming up on 10 years, and the only permanent options we have are still SR, random SR, and small SR. And one of those has had maybe a handful of updates since Dominion died 3 years ago.
: Aram ranked?
Ranked ARAM would be great. If anything, it's long overdue.
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Minarde

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