: Why does it feel so bad losing to a fed adc
It should feel bad especially if you are mid or jungle because you have the entire early (and probably mid game if you're doing half decent) to shit on them and make sure they don't get fed.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: If we're going to cut down damage across the board the ADCs should have it cut down same as the other classes, without any compensation
Well, ADC with less damage but actually survives >>>>>> ADC that has more damage but lives for 2 seconds. The being able to survive is the compensation lolz
: Jax is OFFICIALLY getting nerfed.
Just need a hashinshin patch notes rundown now.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Mages are the most broken class in League. Prove me wrong.
im a mage main and this is blasphemous, you should be exiled from this community at once!
CakeMix (EUW)
: ***
Looks like the troll is doing his job right then XD Hate me all you want but he makes reading the comments here more enjoyable for me.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: Mage mains are as retarded as ADC mains, the moment theirs roles aren't both mandatory and busted they go cry on boards.
One of them clearly dominates boards, the other does not.
xAshur (NA)
: IQ Test
Pretty sure "low IQ" is just a insult some idiots use that has nothing to do with the player's actual IQ, wouldn't surprise me if the player they insult actually turns out to have higher IQ than them.
: This is on your team. Wyd?
I assume it was flex 3v3s? Well, I don't play that, so thankfully I won't have to deal with such things :)
Dr Dog (NA)
: after maining jg and just now comming to play some adc again i realized
Tbh i don't think adc is weak itself there's just too much potential for one mid/jg duo to snowball out of control before the adc is even relevant, especially when its a champ like irelia mid or kass/lb, camille, something of that nature. Seriously though coming out of lane to come face to face with a 10/0 irelia/leblanc as an adc is really unfun though, it shouldn't happen so often. I mean in the games where im doing well and no one on the enemy team is mega fed then honestly it doesnt feel so bad.
: Unpopular opinion: 3 straight stomp games of Worlds finals is not fun to watch.
It will always be 3-0 if one team is so much better than the other Also yes IG isn't known for their teamfighting but that's because they play in LPL
: Playing ADC is stressful and unfun at the moment..
Well at least you can have the peace of mind knowing that you couldn't do anything to survive when the enemy assassin jumped you from out of nowhere. I had a game where I kept dying to the assassin when my team would hard dive and leave me behind. Even though we lost I got "stayed cool" honors for not raging cause they knew it was helpless lol
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nh7eAY7h,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-11-04T21:03:41.755+0000) > > That is two players though > > Mid and Jg are the strongest individually, ADC and Top are average and support is kinda weak rn looking at how many of them get to the top of challenger I would tend to disagree especially with champions like kai sa, lucian etc. who can be effective solo.
Individual impact goes like Mid/Jg>ADC/Top>Supp You can look on the challenger ladder and see who's at the top. Ever since lanes/jg became more interactive with each other early game and game duration on average decreased it's been like this if they don't make ADCs really strong. Lucian Kai'Sa aren't unique, there are picks like that in every role, what matters is mid/jg have the biggest early game impact as a role.
: I don't understand adc?
For most ADCs it's hard to compete with the upfront damage a lot of champions in other lanes / jungle have. There are a few things you can do, however, to maximize your impact. It might be easier to climb as mid or jg but there are plenty of ADCs in challenger so definitely not impossible by any means. 1. Help your jungler early game if you can. That means getting a lane advantage and pushing out when your jungler plans to fight scuttle or even invade. A lot of junglers will make bad calls (as I have learned in my games, a lot of jglers want to fight at scuttle even when the enemy jungler is a lot stronger at level 2 than them) but sometimes you can make up for that. If you get your jungler ahead then that can snowball into an even bigger lead. 2. Pressure turret, so that if you take the turret you can lane swap and apply pressure elsewhere. Often your team will have already taken their turret so if that's the case your team as a whole is in a good position to snowball to victory (so try taking RIft herald, dragons, getting control of enemy jg, etc.). Also if your team is doing fine you can just try to keep farming up so that if the game goes on you'll hit your late game power spike first. 3. Play around your team. Don't try to engage by yourself, be alone in a dangerous spot, etc. Being able to follow up engages and get good damage on the enemy team is really important in teamfights even if you aren't visibly hard outplaying them. ADC isn't the role to solo win a fight against multiple enemies like 1v2 or 1v3, if you're looking for that there are champions like Irelia, Jax, Yasuo, Kassadin, etc. in other lanes. You will have games where it's impossible to win and games where your team autowins the game for you. It's the games between those two extremes where you can try to make a difference.
: Bot lane. Always bot lane. It's the lane not only yielding two players but also the lane that has maintained the only monopoly on class / role combo in the entire game, that speaks to how important adc is.
That is two players though Mid and Jg are the strongest individually, ADC and Top are average and support is kinda weak rn looking at how many of them get to the top of challenger
: I played with a Riven main today... and it DIDNT bitch and moan at all whole game
TheShy was a riven main :) so i dont dislike riven mains as much anymore
AR URF (NA)
: Zed's a high skill ceiling champ, but I feel his kit is graceful for bad players.
Most bad zeds also won't know when they have lethal, won't keep track of their W cooldown in a fight so as to get it back up to escape or secure another kill, can't land triple Q, place their shadow not in the best spot, etc. This is from experience, I make all these mistakes despite playing about 100-200+ games as Zed. However I can still manage to do well in solo queue with him, just not 1v9.
: What is the best 1v9 adc?
You won't be able to win in this meta by scaling if your team gives the enemy team an advantage. {{champion:236}} is the ADC to climb with right now. Your best chance of snowballing early and deciding the game yourself. I have an 85% winrate with him right now.
: is this the best worlds meta?
Well at least this worlds meta has allowed players to shine individually a lot more, last worlds it wasn't like that at all. Also if you are talking about Twitch chat don't take it seriously it's twitch chat lul. I go on twitch chat when I want to be an idiot if that says anything.
: I'm 100% done with this game
Have you watched analysis from people like LS? He analyzes the game on a really high level and tbh made me more aware of what Im doing in game. Might help.
Minecraft (EUW)
: Stormrazor is a failure
Everyone keeps complaining about stormrazor while I'm getting free wins on Lucian XD
KazKaz (OCE)
: Vayne's still just a worse Kai'sa, Ezreal is garbage, Twitch...I'll give you that one and MF goes Stormrazor anyways.
Ezreal's being spammed by people in master & challenger rn. Your average Ezreal that's not in high elo is going to make him look like a garbage champion but that's because they don't know how to play him. In general KaiSa > Ezreal > Vayne > Twitch, I'd say Twitch is the only one that's kind of hard to make work and Kai'Sa is trending downwards but besides twitch they're all find picks.
: Yes. Because I can then escape a blatantly irritating experience and possibly go on to have a better one next game. Comebacks aren't worth the effort anymore. They're not enjoyable, and the chances of success is almost always zero. So why waste the effort, time or patience on such a pointless task? If it isn't causing a release of dopamine. I feel absolutely nothing and get bored. That is comebacks seasons 6-8
Idk man, often when I'm losing I feel like an insane desire to win the game, irrational almost. But that makes a comeback win feel amazing whereas losing either by ff or by enemy taking nexus feels awful either way and really angers me (not in a toxic way).
Midg3t (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHWIGpOi,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-02T15:32:33.692+0000) > > Why are people so obsessed with surrendering nowadays XD > > Enjoy playing the game at least! Or don't play. What's enjoyable when your opponents are so fed that you literally cannot do a single thing other than staying in base? Pls explain.
Ofc it feels bad to be stomped, but I don't think ffing should be more enjoyable than winning a game. If that is the case then maybe you need to take a break from the game?
: It’s hard to enjoy the game when your bot lane goes 1/20 then claims “we got ganked early” like that explains their 18 other deaths.
True, but would you really enjoy FFing at 15 min b/c of that more than winning a game where you played well?
: A game where your team ffs a losing game successfully at 15 mins feels better than winning.
Why are people so obsessed with surrendering nowadays XD Enjoy playing the game at least! Or don't play.
Mizaya (NA)
: Hm I am just confused now, and slightly entertained. YES I am a lowly diamond player (I've been higher but meh, it's not even about that). You are not playing above a gold level on that account of yours, there's just no way to deny it, especially when you have like over 300+ games already. Only way you could actually be a good player is if that's not you playing on your account, and even then what you say is pretty suspect. And If you made relevant points to high level play I wouldn't have brought up your mmr. Look at the worlds meta maybe? Or look at what role is clearly dominant in challenger solo q. The fact that we're even having this discussion with that in consideration is actually sad. At least OP admitted he didn't like ADCs, his post makes a lot more sense now. What you are saying makes no sense. YOU claim ADCs can go into any lane (big facepalm). If you had a 2800 mmr account rn and tried to pick your average bot lane ADC in another lane you'd get reported for griefing. Argue what you want about base stats, (and once again you interpret me wrong because you don't know what I'm trying to say even) base stats doesn't mean shit when you're going to get stomped in lane, out-pushed, out-roamed, out-dueled by the meta picks (and your slightly higher than mages base armor isn't going to help you against APs, either). MEANWHILE, if you are in 1200 MMR and pick an ADC into a lane where you theoretically get destroyed, you might be fine because the enemy doesn't know how to abuse their advantage, and, oh shit you're an ADC so that's good for you! Also, congratz on the offer to LCS in season 1, even though LCS wasn't actually a thing until S3 XD. And S1 was infinitely less competitive than now, but what does it matter you probably made that up too and never played back then.
Yeah and you ended season 5 bronze 2 with a sub 50 winrate on over 60 games on kat. You are also gold with 500 games on Kat? Why are you wasting your life away playing those solo q games if you're supposedly "not trying"? Why aren't you d2 like all the kat one tricks? I see people in d1 that "aren't trying" (literally not giving a fuck and inting sometimes) yet they just got there with a 70% winrate. BTW this isn't even about me, I've been high enough mmr, going to estimate 2600 (in s6) where I was consistently getting matched with top 50. I got close to that last season too before I had to take a month off, and I have significantly less games than you now, because, simply, I have other priorities in life atm and don't enjoy playing as much. I only bring up your rank because you made a statement that literally anyone who has had any exposure to high elo play (you don't even have to be high elo yourself, just watching streams or worlds is enough) would instantly know is wrong. The fact that you passed by my objective statements higher up in this thread, which are ALL facts btw (Who's winning at worlds? Who's top 5 in KR soloQ or even NA? What roles carry hardest?), and made your own argument that completely contradicts those facts is amazing to me. I will gladly discuss with any rank so long as they talk like they've at least seen a high level game or high level play in the last few months. When you are ignorant of that and yet still persistent I don't really have much choice. Like goddamn, is Caitlyn having 0.1 more armor than Kat such a mental block for you that it's keeping you in gold? XDDDD I even looked for the supposed 2200 flex que games but they weren't anywhere to be found (just went 20/0 on 2200 mmr flex que myself today too!!).
Kat1 (NA)
: I peeked at 2800 mmr, dude just whatever bro. 2000 is still garbage tier incase you don't know. Not 'higher tier' at all. Maybe compared to Bronze. Yes, I realize this account is like 1400 and you can use OPGG. No. That doesn't make a shit of difference towards the point. In fact, my points are more valid in higher elo, and more meaningless in lower elo, exactly the opposite of what you're talking about. ADC unfair armor means shit in low elo when they are inting in terms of positioning, and higher armor means EVERYTHING if they are good at kiting. Enjoy your climb. You're still climbing btw, not at the top at all btw. Not even close btw. Let me know when you're invited to the LCS, like I was in season 1. And I'm not even bragging, I know I'm garbage, that's the difference between us. Higher MMR? let me find an ironic laughing emoji:{{sticker:sg-kiko}} That will do.
Hm I am just confused now, and slightly entertained. YES I am a lowly diamond player (I've been higher but meh, it's not even about that). You are not playing above a gold level on that account of yours, there's just no way to deny it, especially when you have like over 300+ games already. Only way you could actually be a good player is if that's not you playing on your account, and even then what you say is pretty suspect. And If you made relevant points to high level play I wouldn't have brought up your mmr. Look at the worlds meta maybe? Or look at what role is clearly dominant in challenger solo q. The fact that we're even having this discussion with that in consideration is actually sad. At least OP admitted he didn't like ADCs, his post makes a lot more sense now. What you are saying makes no sense. YOU claim ADCs can go into any lane (big facepalm). If you had a 2800 mmr account rn and tried to pick your average bot lane ADC in another lane you'd get reported for griefing. Argue what you want about base stats, (and once again you interpret me wrong because you don't know what I'm trying to say even) base stats doesn't mean shit when you're going to get stomped in lane, out-pushed, out-roamed, out-dueled by the meta picks (and your slightly higher than mages base armor isn't going to help you against APs, either). MEANWHILE, if you are in 1200 MMR and pick an ADC into a lane where you theoretically get destroyed, you might be fine because the enemy doesn't know how to abuse their advantage, and, oh shit you're an ADC so that's good for you! Also, congratz on the offer to LCS in season 1, even though LCS wasn't actually a thing until S3 XD. And S1 was infinitely less competitive than now, but what does it matter you probably made that up too and never played back then.
Kat1 (NA)
: stats: their armor is broken, the katarina comparison isn't hyperbole, it's literally sick Caitlyn has higher armor at all, even if it's by .1, newer characters like kindred have just straight out superior armor to katarina, and other characters like Draven have higher base also. none of these should even be COMPARABLE to katarina imo but whatever. I feel like there is bias in your other comparisons too. ADC's have easily the most forgiving rotations of skills mana wise, that doesn't even have to be calculated it can be felt. Caitlyn can use a mana reserve of 3 whole rotations, and she regenerates a full rotation every 90 seconds, that's ridiculous, why even have mana, just make them manaless at that point. Xerath a straight out mage, can only hold 2 full rotations of abilities, and takes over 2 minutes to regenerate a single rotation, what you're saying is just factually incorrect. Enchanters are definitely a more defensive support, that's not even arguable. The class you're comparing this too is 'engage support' come on man; ADC's can play in any lane, this is because they are walking balls of scaling stats they shouldn't have, on top of this, they are a damage class. They lack HP, the most accessible and efficient stat in the game, god forbid ADC's learn when Warmogs is an appropriate item. They go bot lane because historically it's the weakest tower and they are ranged, you're completely wrong about that part. The goal of the lane is first tower. The point of the nerfs is that they -complain- when Vayne gets nerfd, because ADC's don't main roles as often, so if Vayne is Nerfd, Draven players defend Vayne on the forums, that's the lunacy of it. None of them can be nerf/buff without all of them being considered by the community, that part is ridiculous, they are not looked at individually, they are looked at as a whole class. This causes lots of issues. Just because they receive individual attention doesn't invalidate the point I made about them receiving 'rainbow' buffs at all. They absolutely do, and more often than individual attention. Katarina is Melee champion with AD scaling that has skimped armor because it's assumed she will build zhoyna every game. When katarina had higher armor, adc mains complained about it. Katarina suffered from the rune changes more than anyone, to the point, Caitlyn is now tanky in comparison. Get out of here even considering a .1 higher armor rating is fair in the comparison, when she should just obviously have less. Not only do ADC's have unfair armor ratings, it's grown over the years.
Honestly I was going to give a long reply to this (I even had it typed out) but I realize you're playing in a different MMR range than me, which makes for almost a different game. A lot of the elements that constrain the meta for higher tier play don't hold there, (e.g. your jungler is pissed that you picked an ADC mid and they have LB) and either way, I don't like arguing about minute details, and what ADC or whatever mains are saying on boards means nothing to me, if Riot made bot lane into a true bruiser meta I would start playing Irelia and shit without saying a word. And yes I am biased, I am not a robot I'm a human. Clearly you are too, but that's okay, people are supposed to have different perspectives and it gives depth to discussion when people can admit that, it's just funny that you act like it's a crime to have a different viewpoint. Let's just leave it at this lmao, I made a mistake thinking that I could have a real discussion here.
: Is there an easy way to figure out when to farm and when to roam as an ADC in lane?
Before taking turret you'll typically only leave lane to help jg
Saezio (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZxbcrjV,comment-id=00040000000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T16:04:00.831+0000) > > ADCs are the safest source of sustained damage though, I don't know why so many people are bitter that the sustained ranged damage class is optimal in most team compositions. They're also vulnerable early game, hence supports, and need to farm up as they don't really have much early impact. > > Now, if we're talking resources, not only did we see bot-lane centric teams fail at worlds, but you have to realize that going into a duo lane is literally giving up xp. But again that's why ADCs are played because the lost xp doesn't hurt them as much as they aren't early playmakers. > > Non-ADCs in bot break that rule, so typically their role is something else, like shutting down the enemy ADC. They're supposed to be situational picks, since they aren't inherently designed to fit well in the bot lane. This is why there was a Vel'Koz picked at worlds, since the other team early drafted a bot lane that was very punishable. People are not mad because ranged DPS fits well into most comps. They are upset because as soon as other strategies arise they are nerfed or their counterparts are buffed. For example as soon as funnelling was a thing and we saw some different champs being the hypercarries (Yi, Karthus, or even Kai'sa Xaya in another lane) the strategy is destroyed When Swain/Vlad/Heimer/yasuo were top picks bot lane in only lasted what? 2 patches? Maybe even less. It's like the meta of ADC+SUPPORT bot is so hard enforced.
Well, I honestly believe that mid lane is best to play around in this meta (or top) rather than ADC. So it's even less common that I think people would pick non-ADC because those are niche picks that often require drafting around, whereas ADCs are usually 'plug and play'. Combined with the reasons I have stated for ADCs being inherently more 'fit' for bot lane, it seems that if ADCs were to be second to another class of champions in bot lane that would suggest that they are very weak. And anyways, you have teams like G2 that draw heimer bans every game, and I think overall non-ADC picks should be at a level where they are situational and niche and can influence the draft (so that if you draft greedy you will get punished, in a competitive setting of course not solo queue). In solo queue anyways, there is a guy (GRF Viper) winning in high elo a lot with Yasuo bot. So once again it didn't get really get nerfed into unviability i think.
Kat1 (NA)
: If you just want flat examples of what he is talking about, they have -low mana costs -high mana regeneration -high base armor -high movement speed -short cooldowns and none of these things are even related to auto attacks, yet they get artificial stat buffers around the idea of being a 'bot laner'. The high base armor for example is literally to combat another ADC poking them down too fast level 1, they have free armor to potect them from their own class! The meta caters to them in this way, they get free armor, because it's assumed this is what bot lane will look like. Same goes for their absurdly high mana regeneration etc. I think the solution should be to shred their armor to trash and buff hp as need, then buffing enchanters wont be necessary because it will be the only option for the ADC if they are bad, and then if they are skillful, they can benefit from stronger engage supports. It also puts them at risk to non-traditional ADC. But in a nutshell, they would not have this artificial armor stats if that game wasn't balanced around a 2 man adc-sup vs adc-sup, and this buffer of stats is especially annoying when taken to other lanes, and why the irony of adc mains is not supporting a non-traditional bot lane while your average team in low elo is now quinn top, with graves jg, lucian mid and ezreal bot because of free stats. The way they receive damage nerfs/buffs is also super cult-like, no other champion is considered when Shen gets an AD nerf, but if Draven receives an AD buff, 11 other ADC's demand the same 4AD buff. Meanwhile these same players often PLAY the other champions they are talking about that also need buffs, but shen only plays...shen. It's just insane how they complain and triple dip the benefits of it and do demand to just be statistically superior as a role, not even considering the mechanics or skill of the game involved. Explain to me why Caitlyn with a sniper rifle, has higher base armor than Katarina with a knife? Because of years of complaining and ADC circle jerking. That's why.
Mana costs: Varies by ADC, and really this goes for every champ--the ones with higher mana costs tend to have higher base mana pools and usually higher regen anyways. Doesn't stand out from other classes really. Mana regen: Generally lower than mages who have higher costs (as I said), generally higher than champs like Darius who have way lower mana costs than them. So not notably high in the end. Armor: Higher than mages and some other APs, and there's still a huge overlap between the two classes. Lower than almost everyone else. MS: Can be high when stormrazor + crit items are built. Base movement speed is the lowest in the game though. Cooldowns: Once again varies by champ. Tristana--example of really high CDs, Ezreal--much lower for Q. The armor is, I think (don't quite remember the exact changes in preseason), from the previous seasons when ADs would take armor seals. With the previous rune system, however, the bot lane ADC meta held constant for 6 years or something, so it's not like they're now enforcing something that wasn't already in place before when players had the freedom to choose runes for their stats. So, nerfing their armor more (it was already nerfed in 8.11) would seem like forcing a change of meta. Also, I don't think enchanter supports necessarily favor unskilled ADCs, unless you want to play to go even at best, then yes that's the strat. Winning lane with an enchanter as your support is arguably more harder since you have to engage the trades often yourself, versus an engage support who does it for you. The way they incorporated the 'most popular old runes' stats into the base values is a bit inflexible yes, however that's more of a problem with the new rune system. A lot of ADC mains are talking from the same mentality as people like OP, they simply don't like something and want it changed. Now, I will admit I'd rather quit the game than learn Heimer, but most other non-ADCs I've been willing to play bot when they were meta--Yasuo, Irelia, Swain-- I like some of these more than ADCs anyways. But once again i'll explain the reasons (at least I think) for ADC historically having gone bot: they're vulnerable early and bot is the safest and most adaptable lane because it's a duo (so you can also go a counter lane like Vel'Koz bot we saw at worlds), ADCs typically aren't early playmakers so they're fine with sharing xp. So I think it follows that when ADC balanced, they are going to be top picks bot given no other champs/class are so overpowered as to push them out. I also don't believe that I'm absolutely right on this so feel free to provide counterpoints. As for Riot's balancing of ADs (changing all at once) that was only on some occasions, like 8.11, since I can provide an easy counter example to yours: Vayne's base AD nerf a few season back, not everyone else got nerfed when she did that time. Also, Katarina has 0.1 less base armor than Cait, as it says on wiki, so I don't really think we can call this significant. Besides, she has over 100 more health than Cait at lvl 1.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZxbcrjV,comment-id=00040000000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T16:04:00.831+0000) > > ADCs are the safest source of sustained damage though, I don't know why so many people are bitter that the sustained ranged damage class is optimal in most team compositions. They're also vulnerable early game, hence supports, and need to farm up as they don't really have much early impact. > > Now, if we're talking resources, not only did we see bot-lane centric teams fail at worlds, but you have to realize that going into a duo lane is literally giving up xp. But again that's why ADCs are played because the lost xp doesn't hurt them as much as they aren't early playmakers. > > Non-ADCs in bot break that rule, so typically their role is something else, like shutting down the enemy ADC. They're supposed to be situational picks, since they aren't inherently designed to fit well in the bot lane. This is why there was a Vel'Koz picked at worlds, since the other team early drafted a bot lane that was very punishable. Because its the only damn archetype in the game that is a constant and required pick? How can you people not get that that irks people? It enforces stale and constantly similar picks, gameplay and strata as well. And whenever there came a time when you could reasonably play without that one class archetype there was mass crying on how the class and role was now "useless" because it was like literally everyone else. Oh the horror we are now an optional pick that fits only 85 percent of games and comps instead of 100 percent! Adc literally useless riot pls! Then we get immediate buffs the next patch and the tiny bit of variance and diversity added was squashed yet again by riot enforcing a stale and strict meta and method of playing this game.
I don't have much time right now to discuss why ADCs are almost always picked, even though I'd like to. I will say, however, that I don't sympathize with your sentiments since you claim non-adcs being played is good without providing an understanding at least of why they are picked bot all the time. You might as well be saying that you dislike ADCs and ADC players in general. And saying "well all the roles should have multiple playable classes that are top tier at some point" is a really basic way of viewing the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZxbcrjV,comment-id=000400000002,timestamp=2018-10-23T14:50:18.073+0000) > > "center of the game"... > > We've seen a mid-jungle duo get to d1-master without losing a single game in this meta, we've seen jungler get rank 1 or high challenger with 70% w/r in multiple regions, we see mid laners solo carrying on the world stage and teams that play through bot getting upset hard. > > Not that I don't think I can climb because I play adc, I think it's more than doable, but it's really not like everyone else has to give up carrying and support the adc lol. I found playing Yasuo/swain bot to be enjoyable and refreshing as well, but my point is the non-bot roles all can carry games in this meta. Adc has an entire player dedicated to supporting it every game because of its strength. Its the de facto carry role every game with the most resources put into it by very nature of having that support, not to mention objective control around the lane etc. If the class archetype marksmen, which is basically ADC since no other attack damage champs can be played there, was ever as weak as ADC players make it out to be you would see resource diversion in a much bigger way. Like actually giving that bot lane with its sup slave to literally anyone else besides marksmen.
ADCs are the safest source of sustained damage though, I don't know why so many people are bitter that the sustained ranged damage class is optimal in most team compositions. They're also vulnerable early game, hence supports, and need to farm up as they don't really have much early impact. Now, if we're talking resources, not only did we see bot-lane centric teams fail at worlds, but you have to realize that going into a duo lane is literally giving up xp. But again that's why ADCs are played because the lost xp doesn't hurt them as much as they aren't early playmakers. Non-ADCs in bot break that rule, so typically their role is something else, like shutting down the enemy ADC. They're supposed to be situational picks, since they aren't inherently designed to fit well in the bot lane. This is why there was a Vel'Koz picked at worlds, since the other team early drafted a bot lane that was very punishable.
: I'm pretty sue the issue is that marksmen are once again overpowered as shit and the only time in recent memory anything stood up against them adc mains bitched and bitched their way back into becoming the center of the game again because they're not allowed to not be the best bursters, sustainers, with movespeed on half their items, special boots just for them, and items that other classes can build that empower them specifically that way they can be special snowflakes when they decide to.. rightclick for 900 damage every .34 seconds, but they do 1600 up front just in case
"center of the game"... We've seen a mid-jungle duo get to d1-master without losing a single game in this meta, we've seen jungler get rank 1 or high challenger with 70% w/r in multiple regions, we see mid laners solo carrying on the world stage and teams that play through bot getting upset hard. Not that I don't think I can climb because I play adc, I think it's more than doable, but it's really not like everyone else has to give up carrying and support the adc lol. I found playing Yasuo/swain bot to be enjoyable and refreshing as well, but my point is the non-bot roles all can carry games in this meta.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: tank Viktor toplane 9% pick rate 52% win rate
If you're against it pick Irelia if you can, he's good into pretty much anything else lol
: "Everyone else is still important but mostly in relation to how they play around the Marksmen"
Yet I've seen so much more of mid laners hard carrying games this year's worlds Perkz, Caps, Rookie, Scout all having the ability to pop off and make 1v9 plays really shows it
Bârd (NA)
: So I started leveling my smurf, and I have to say that I early levels are hell.
I got flamed and called bronze for taking 3 cs from my midlaner in an intermediate bot game when he was halfway across the map. On my first game on a new acc...
CD8 (NA)
: Ive watched a whopping 1 world game, and just started watching the 2nd of the series
Graves wasn't picked or banned once the whole series though.
: Playing League is just like gambling.
Not a good mentality to have if you wanna be successful I used to have a lot of time to play and was kinda toxic. Then I realized I should just focus on my own play, regardless of win or lose and reached the highest rank I've ever been about 2 years ago. I don't play as much now and consequently am not that good but hopefully my experience is helpful.
: how is what you described not trolling? voting no to spite someone is TROLLING. I forgot this is NA where surrendering is a bad thing, even if it means sitting in a game for 20 extra minutes, and enemy team doesn't want to end because they're padding their kda.
NA has one of the highest surrender rates though. Behind KR primarily as far as major regions go The EU servers are both lower. NA has a lot of problems but the whole surrendering thing isn't really one of them. If anything it's really a rather high amount of players who tilt really easily.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bXj9mbs,comment-id=00060003000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-05T14:38:48.260+0000) > > Lol, let's just put the game aside. > > Do you really think there isn't a situation where Velkoz isn't a good pick as a bot laner? In competitive of course, where people actually draft around unique picks. I don't think the implication is that if he's picked it means you're going to see more of it, it's more that there exists situations where picks like these can work on the current patch in competitive. The thing is that the topic is about the guy trying to say that 1 match where Vel'Koz got pick is supposed to show that he's a good pick in bot in pro scene and subsequently adding to the proof for bot lane diversity or something. And the argument hinges on the fact Vel'Koz has been picked into bot for the very first and only time in this round of pro game... and in a troll match where nobody knows what the fuck both sides were even doing. The argument thus means jack all. The reality is that Vel'Koz is not seen as a good pick in bot in pro scene, or even just a solid pick in general, that's why he's barely ever picked as a whole in actual proper matches (let alone in bot) apart from that 1 single troll match. Blatant outliners should NOT be treated as the norm/average.
Well, are we trying to prove that mages are the 'norm' in bot lane, or rather that there is a place for them which may be simply a small niche? I think the latter is the more refined form of "diversity" that we'd want in the bot lane, rather than forcing non-adc picks to be standard in a lane that inherently fits adcs. Now, as for the Kabum vs DFM match, I think if we look at the draft first, then the actual gameplay is less relevant. Vel'Koz was picked as a punish into red side drafting Soraka early (and then Vayne). Picking Vel'Koz wasn't a bad choice in this situation. And it's actually a good thing that teams can 'threaten' these sort of picks as it gives them an edge in draft, theoretically.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bXj9mbs,comment-id=000600030000,timestamp=2018-10-05T05:05:36.709+0000) > > DFM hasn't looked that bad at all so far though Not in that match when they went up against KBM where Vel'Koz was picked. Vel'Koz appearance wasn't some grand and new and exciting implication, he was only picked because the entire match itself was a troll match, and won simply because the other team trolled harder. This means nothing.
Lol, let's just put the game aside. Do you really think there isn't a situation where Velkoz isn't a good pick as a bot laner? In competitive of course, where people actually draft around unique picks. I don't think the implication is that if he's picked it means you're going to see more of it, it's more that there exists situations where picks like these can work on the current patch in competitive.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bXj9mbs,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-10-04T13:48:49.702+0000) > > Vel'Koz has already been played on the Worlds Play In with a win In that match where KBM vs DFM, that was a clown fiesta with Vayne and Soraka on the DFM bot lane, and both teams played like they'd walked straight out of Bronze? Ofc Vel'Koz worked, just like it could work in any Bronze match. It doesn't simply mean Vel'Koz is suddenly "played on the Worlds" or somehow implying that it's "Worlds-approved". That match literally doesn't mean anything, and you'd be extremely and intellectually dishonest to suggest that it does.
DFM hasn't looked that bad at all so far though, and I'd say the level of play here is above anything you'll find at the highest ranks of NA solo queue, or OCE for that matter. So yeah, this is pretty relevant imo. Of course, I doubt Velkoz would work well in challenger solo queue because I doubt people would be willing to play around it. ADCs are the best for solo queue precisely for that reason (though in KR there has been a couple counterexamples against that). In competitive however we've seen Yasuo bot win a game against a top 2 team in the world not too long ago, as an example.
: The problem is that if you pick a midlane mage to go MID (the one lane where mages have always been playable) you now have to lane against an assassin the majority of the time, including jungle dives. The majority of the good jungle/mid that you will face will be AD. You can't "fill a role" if you're getting hard dominated in lane.
That varies by champion Zed, for example, matches up very well against Syndra statistically, and I have experienced that the matchup is Zed favored in the games I've played that matchup. He also has a really bad winrate against Malzahar, simply because it's a lot harder to outplay a point and click suppression than it is to ult Syndra's R. In any case, to improve as a player you'd look to the power points on your side of the matchup and from there try to perfect your decision making. It's never so black and white.
: Did you know that some people actually believe that AP items are superior to AD items?
What's the point of any of this, when the items generally have different purposes and can't be compared side by side? AP champions and AD casters/assassins even fill completely different roles within a team often. AP items are fine.
CLG ear (NA)
: So far I've lost 30 pounds
Good work man I've actually done the opposite, gained 20lbs in the last year cause I'm trying to bulk up :P
: My boyfriend thinks I'm wrong about dying in first 3 mins basically decides the game
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats Looks like giving up first blood means you have a 40% chance of winning still statistically, so still winnable! (Not much difference for dia+ either).
: Ok... I'm realizing why StormRazor is a degenerate item.
Remove stormrazor but revert bloodthirster to the old one sounds reasonable?
: > [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MmM2OHnA,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-23T16:47:37.119+0000) > > How is it irrelevant when the whole reason stormrazor was made was because old IE + Shiv was seen as too universally strong? My whole point is that it's ridiculous to say that stormrazor is anywhere near old IE in terms of power. It wasnt just old IE+static by themselves that was a problem, the crit chance of those together was......50%? So you had to get rapidfire as well to truly make static crits certain and busting squishes easy......sure lucky crits did happen but it wasnt as much. And how much damage do you actually need to kill a marksman and a non tank support? Most fights down botlane end nearly instantly x) Stormrazor fills the job of creating powerful poke, couple this with a static shiv and you can truly blast someone for a nice spike of damage,,,,, but while the removal of the 50% bonus damage on a crit did lower the max potential of that "spike" its kinda offset by how much earlier you can get stormrazor in turn, and the fact that you only need 2 items to milk out max burst. Get it earlier? People have less max health and less resistances which means they end up losing more health to the same trick. > I was saying nothing about tanks, of course having stormrazor and rapidfire you are throwing pebbles at a tank at that point in the game but for most ADs stormrazor + rapidfire is a huge downgrade from old IE in general. Its not really, the much earlier powerspike does so much its hard to explain it simply. But look at the "main" users of stormrazor, being {{champion:145}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:51}}{{champion:222}} {{champion:15}}, its true that they often do not rush static right after stormrazor but its also true that they have some other greater benefit granted by rushing rapidfire instead, or whatever else they get. Well while it varies a bit it usually boils down to either poke or runaan synergy, rapidfire+stormrazor affords heavy poke which allows anyone getting it early to easily secure lane dominance even against a threatening enemy botlane giving them no room to trade back , but if we are simply looking to burst a lone someone outright then static is indeed superior. > Also you don't really need armor pen anymore with new IE, just the new IE sucks early game because the true damage is not too relevant against anyone who isn't a tank. Bullcrap, do you actually even play any marksmen? New IE converts 10% of your crit damage into true damage, unless you intend to have your normal AA damage reach 1500 per hit then usually the true damage wont go over 60-70 per hit which is to say that your autos would deal 600-700 AD damage pre resistances. But against a tank that has a ton of armor, randuin,ninja tabi, defensive steroids and who even knows how much health? Most tanks end up hitting 200 armor or more, many like rammus ends up with a shitton more of it or they are like Sion or leona/malphite who boost themselves with barriers/resistance buffs or they are like alistar with a fat and flat damage resistance on demand. Aftershock is a thing too. At 250 they have 70% damage reduction from AD sources, if they are like Rammus/leo/seju and are capable of boosting themselves they they easily reach 300 or even more, and all these guys often reach 3-4 k health easily and they get stoneplate too. A crit of 700? Goes down to deal 210 damage......before reduction from randuin and ninja tabi, good luck getting anything done anytime soon. Let me tell you, skipping armor pen against anything with over 150 armor is risky, and against anything with enough health and even more armor its plain stupid unless you are playing Vayne. The only reason we dont see people get armor pen right now is because true tanks are largely missing, i think we have like 4 truly active ones being Sion, Rammus, leona and alistar but not anyone else, but only the last 2 should truly have any significant playrate. So most people can indeed just skip armor pen, but not because its not needed to deal with armor......rather there is just a lack of people actually building enough armor to make it necessary at all.
First, stormrazor on it's own does 140% on the crit, which realllly isn't that much damage at all. Also, I think you're overestimating how much earlier you get 2 items. Like I said, it's 400 gold than before stormrazor was added. That's 2-3 waves of cs. 1:00-1:30 in game time. This is at most one level difference in the targets you will be hitting than with old IE + Shiv. Now, I thought to myself while too, stormrazor + zeal item is probably pretty good for poking in lane. However, even if you're csing nearly perfectly and you get, say, 2 kills, to get those 2 items + boots would take around 17-18 minutes at least, when in the current meta laning really doesn't last that long. For example, in my last ranked game I was lucian, and even though I was playing pretty badly in lane and fell behind, at around 15 min or so when Xayah was building her 2nd item after stormrazor and I was on bork only (I was literally down like 2500 gold at this point lol), I was able to easily destroy her in a trade just outside enemy mid tower allowing my team to then take the turret for free. Now of the champs you listed, I assume Kaisa takes stormrazor because of her Q evolve (combined with pickaxe from rageblade). Jhin is one of those champs that naturally synergizes with the item, Jinx with her rockets can poke (and they buffed her rockets so the bonus damage even crits), sivir and cait are pretty garbage rn so I won't even go there, just know that stormrazor is still the best option for them :). Lastly the reason you hardly see armor pen is because once again stormrazor is first buy, are you really going to make it to 6 items and sell boots in your average game? no. Because to get 100% crit with stormrazor already takes 4 items that cost 11700-800 gold. So maybe I phrased it wrong saying you don't "need armor pen" but it's more like buying armor pen as an ADC has too big of a cost for your build path unless your game went past 40 min or you got mega fed.
: Ashe is a Healthy Champion
Idk, I just imagine an Ashe having no peel getting instakilled over and over by a Zed would probably start becoming toxic after a while. You really can't do much on that champion if your team doesn't try to help you.
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Mizaya

Level 143 (NA)
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