Rioter Comments
: SCUTTLE SOCCER
Really thought this idea would have more traction. Oh well! I tried my best.
khorney (NA)
: I'm agreeing with you static ludens is part of my build on kass
: No, I didn't look at the website. I looked in game. I'm looking at it in game right now. "Melee attack". That's the exact text. "Gangplank's next melee attack ignites the target, dealing..." That's exactly what it says. It even says, in green text, "Parrrley does not activate Trial by Fire". This is made explicitly clear.
I see what the issue is now. I will have to play with GP soon to double check, but information between RIOT site and Lol Wiki are not consistent.
: Gangplank's passive specifically states that his next "melee attack" applies his passive. It makes no specific mention of basic attacks. GP's Q not applying his passive is irrelevant to its status as a basic attack.
You sir have bad info from RIOT themselves. In game, his passive clearly states his next basic attack. On the LOL website, it does not give more information then what you stated. So RIOT needs to update that text for GP so that it is consistent with what they have on their site and what is stated in game when you are actually reading the passive's text.
: These are exceptions to the rule that are specifically annotated by Riot. They cannot challenge the rule for that reason. Sometimes, these exceptions must be made for the sake of the game's balance and health (and sometimes because Riot does not have enough time or resources to make a workaround). In any other case, there *are* consistent rules the game follows. If you are not familiar with these rules, please familiarize yourself with them and the reasons for them in the league of legends wiki site. Googling some things also brings up results - statements and explanations by Riot. In this case, Ezreal's Q and Gangplank's Q both follow the rules as they should. It is Gangplank's passive - not his Q - that is the exception.
You sir get my upvote. I understand that these are the cases, and these are the reasons why the things are the way they are. If I were a person learning to play this game though, this would be frustrating since there is no clear way of know how your spells and items in certain niche situations will work together, Ezreal's Q and Ludens in this case being the example. I thank you good patron of the internet.
: Have you ever played a Trading Card game of any sort? Really, in *any* game, the rules are always "rules of thumb." Unless something overrides a rule, you follow the rules as normal. But TCGs do this the most frequently. They'll have a rule like this: "You can only summon creatures during your main phase." Then, they'll have a card that breaks that rule, stating, "This creature may be summoned at any time," or "If X happens, immediately summon this creature." This is one of those rule of thumb cases. A damaging effect can be an attack, a spell, **or** an on-hit effect if it's applied by an attack or a spell. Since Ezreal's Q is the initial source of damage, it has to be either an attack or a spell, not both. The ability is thus coded as an attack rather than a spell.
I agree with your comments. The one issue is that there is no where that it states that these abilities like Ezreal's Q have these "special" effects. If the abilities do have these effects, then I would like for them to be pointed out as they are with TCGs and not just when they are convenient or necessary. That being said, I would argue that the umbrella term is "attack" and then from there go to ability or non ability, and then to physical or magical or true, and so on and so forth until the damage map tree is completed.. Currently the "damage tree system" seems to wonky at best.
: Gangplank's **SWORD** periodically becomes ignited, causing his next basic attack to burn his target Please look up the facts before making statements.
But the argument still stands because you blatantly point out : "causing his next basic attack to burn his target" The minor flavor text beforehand should have no impact on the effect of the actual ability. Through that, if GP's Q applies on-hit effects, and if something that applies on-hit effects is considered a basic auto-attack, then GP's passive should be applied through his Q. That being said, I believe many would argue that the minor flavor text would matter in this specific case.
: And I would argue that that is not healthy. For something to apply on hit effects it must be a basic attack. If something is both spell and attack it means it both applies Life Steal and Spellvamp, both applies spell effects and on hit effects, both can be dodged by Jax's dodge and can't be dodged, both can't hit under blind and can hit under blind. You see the problems this arises? I *know* Riot will someday release spells that apply on hit effects, because they love bending rules and trying out "new" things, but right now, Ezreal is fine as is.
You say: For something to apply on hit effects it must be a basic attack. I say this is false because of GP's passive being applied via his basic auto-attack and not through his Q (even though there was an argument made somewhere in this thread that stated his sword becomes ignited, and IT applies the effect, and that his gun cannot do so because of that minor flavor text before the passive saying "causing his next basic attack to burn his target" which is dumb by itself).
: Yes, let's screw over the system, where spell effects are balanced for casters and attack effects are balanced for attackers, because someone wants a champion to activate both with the same effect. God forbid that we actually have to separate the two because combining the effects could break the system.
Im not saying to break the system, what I want is a consistent set of definitions and rules to play by, so that when I buy an item that does damage based on a spell, and I use a spell, then I want the extra damage to be done by the item.
: NO. No. No. No. ಠ_ಠ NO. NO. NO. It takes a spell, because **IT'S A SPELL EFFECT**. Ez's Q is ***NOT*** a spell, it's an autoattack.
I am arguing that It is not an auto-attack. GP is the example I use GP above to show how if something does apply-on-hit-effects, than it is not necessarily an auto-attack.
: It doesn't proc on GP's Q
Ok, well thank you for clarfying that. Still though, the argument stands that GP's Q is exactly like ezreals all purposes intended, and since it does not apply his passive, it cannot be an auto-attack.
: His passive is not any on-hit effect. It's limited to his regular autos for balance reason. But Botrk or Shiv or Sheen are on-hits - all applied by Parrley.
Then that is even worse, because there is no consistency across definitions of the characters spells, attacks, and how they interact with items.
: My point is not strictly that Ludens works with GP, What I was getting at was that saying ezreal's Q is considered an auto-attack is purely wrong since GP has the same thing with his Q but it does not apply his passive which is based on an auto-attack. So saying that Ezreal's Q is an autoattack is false.
If Ezreal's Q is not an auto-attack, and it isn't a spell then what the hell is it?
: That's wrong. If you were to take Luden's Echo on, say, Pantheon, his Q and E could proc Luden's despite being physical damage. The problem is that Ezreal's Q applies on-attack effects instead of on-spell effects. It's treated as a basic attack despite being a spell. So it would proc Shiv instead of Luden's.
Which I believe that it should do both since it applies on hit effects in addition to being a spell.
: > [{quoted}](name=MonsterMasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=drZfritW,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-24T18:21:46.520+0000) > > Look at my post to Operation above. > > Here is a counter-arugment, GP. > > Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a basic-auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack. Have you ever actually seen Luden's proc on a GP Q? Because it's not a very strong counter-argument if you don't actually have proof that it works like that. Eve's E behaves exactly the same as Ez's Q, so there's more than one ability that behaves like that.
My point is not strictly that Ludens works with GP, What I was getting at was that saying ezreal's Q is considered an auto-attack is purely wrong since GP has the same thing with his Q but it does not apply his passive which is based on an auto-attack. So saying that Ezreal's Q is an autoattack is false.
: Calm the fuck down, that's just how it is. Don't shoot the messenger, jackass.
Not shooting the messenger, pointing out that your argument does not hold water.
khorney (NA)
: Well then kass w procs ludens and everything so I'm not sure why ez q doesn't
Which is exactly why I think it is lame that Ezreal Q does not proc Ludens. It absolutely should in addition to applying on hit effects.
Lugg (NA)
: Ez's Q does PHYSICAL damage only. It takes magic damage to proc Ludens.
It clearly states in the item description this. Luden's EchoCost: 3000 (900) +100 Ability Power +10% Movement Speed UNIQUE Passive: Gain charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, **the next spell hit **expends all charges to deal 100 (+10% AP) bonus magic damage to up to 4 targets on hit. This is directly from the LOL website. Here is the link. Find Ludens if you do not believe me. http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/items/
: And I would argue that that is not healthy. For something to apply on hit effects it must be a basic attack. If something is both spell and attack it means it both applies Life Steal and Spellvamp, both applies spell effects and on hit effects, both can be dodged by Jax's dodge and can't be dodged, both can't hit under blind and can hit under blind. You see the problems this arises? I *know* Riot will someday release spells that apply on hit effects, because they love bending rules and trying out "new" things, but right now, Ezreal is fine as is.
Look at my post to Operation above. Here is a counter-arugment, GP. Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
: Q is coded as an autoattack, it applies on hit effects, not spell effects. Working as intended.
Then that is just backa**wards. It is a skillshot and does not rely on your auto-attack to work. Here is a counter-arugment, GP. Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
: the same reason nasus q doesnt proc it. except from the weird case that ezreal q is a skillshot, its probably coded like an empowered auto attack. otherwise it wouldnt be able to apply sheen, lifesteal elc.
My only comment about this is that you physically have to use your auto-attack to get the ability to go off, whereas with Ezreal it is a skillshot.
: ezreal Q like operation said is not counted as an ability. Luden's procs of all abilities, not off of magic damage. this includes summoner spells even I believe like smite. You can actually proc ludens with Talon Q, mundo cleaver, and Garen E for the lel if you want to test this yourself. I still feel ezreal Q should be counted as ability, but then it couldn't proc on hit effects which would nerf AD ezreal into an even more garbage state.
I think then RIOT needs to have a better unifying theme of what summoner spells are, and how they can still be spells AND apply on-hit-effects if they so choose to go that route.
: Champion abilities are not all _spells_. Would you rather have Ezreal's Q not apply on-hit effects (and therefor Spellblade)? You can only have one or the other. Luden's does work with Poppy's Q, but that is because she is such an old champion. Back in the day auto-attack modifiers translated the attack into a spell. Riot has since abandoned this design philosophy and will likely remove it from Poppy's kit when she gets reworked (eventually). However, if they attempt to change it now, it might cause more harm than good as it could cause bugs, be a nerf to Poppy, etc. By the way, Jax's W is the same.
I would argue that his Q is a spell (especially since it is a skillshot) and in addition can apply on hit effects.
: > [{quoted}](name=MonsterMasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=drZfritW,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-24T17:52:32.863+0000) > > OK so nowhere in the item description does it say spelldamage which is why I think it should proc off of his Q regardless of how it is coded. If it is the case that it is based on damage and not ability, then Ludens should say off of Spelldamage and not spellhit. > > What about Poppy's Q? Does Ludens work with Poppy Q? > > If it does, what is the difference between Poppy Q and Ezreal Q? Unique: Gains charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the **next instance of ability damage** you deal will expend all charges to deal 100 (+ 10% AP) bonus magic damage to the first enemy hit and summon up to 3 lesser bolts that target nearby enemies, prioritizing enemies damaged by the ability and champions over minions.
IN the game it says on the next SPELL HIT. http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/items/ FInd ludens yourself and tell me that you are correct.
: Are syndras allowed?
Could be! Only thing is her ability would be a bit more powerful since it can throw over champs. That being said, your team's Kench could just eat her....
: What if the other team uses q and then intercept your passing scuttle xD
Then they now have the ball.
: Why does Ezreal Q not proc Ludens Echo?
OK so nowhere in the item description does it say spelldamage which is why I think it should proc off of his Q regardless of how it is coded. If it is the case that it is based on damage and not ability, then Ludens should say off of Spelldamage and not spellhit. What about Poppy's Q? Does Ludens work with Poppy Q? If it does, what is the difference between Poppy Q and Ezreal Q?
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: Bard, the Wandering Caretaker, revealed
100% guarantee, this will be the champ that yields the greatest amount of fun against both teams.

MonsterMasher

Level 52 (NA)
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