: Does anyone else think top lane is by far the most boring role in the game?
: At the risk of proving you right... wind wall is strategic or appealing?
Yes. Wind Wall is strategic because its value is specific (only defends against projectiles) and greatly defines his matchups; its power is a very big factor in how he wins fights. Yasuo's major strength is being a strong answer primarily to ranged champions who heavily rely on key projectiles - Miss Fortune R, all but a few burst mages, etc. At the same time it does very little for him against other melees, and that significant defense being very weakened means he tends to lose quite hard when it comes to 1v1ing other melee carries. Wind Wall keeps Yasuo from having a generalist design because its inclusion makes it very easy for Riot to tune him around countering ranged champs while struggling vs other melee DPS.
Reksee (NA)
: What kind of Champion does this game need?
Infernape (EUW)
: >Imagine a CT juggernaut So Darius?
darius isn't CT's anymore and wasn't a functioning juggernaut until the update, imo. champ was just there to make laning shit and then be shit for the rest of the game
Anìmê (NA)
: Delete One: Champion, Item, and Rune
shyvana, most useless design to ever exist in lol aftershock so I can have COTC back all ap items, mages shouldn't scale
: About assassins
I still don't consider "kill someone very quickly" to be a design role that needs to be a class's entire and sole function. A champion can kill people fast but when it's the only thing that they really justify themselves by then that champion is probably not well-made. Akali is a big step up because she has a clear advantage versus champs with targeted damage who have to wait until she destealths to try and counter-attack her compared to skillshot spammers who don't have to let up on their offense at all when fighting her. I wouldn't say she's perfect but she's easily the best foundation for an assassin kit so far. CertainlyT has a good track record of reinvigorating struggling classes - he gave us Yasuo, the first truly _functioning_ melee ADC that's more than a heap of steroids slapped together, and now we have Akali.
: Phreak on Champion Base Stats
i bet phreak saw my thread on base stats and is responding to it feels good dude
: >in a way that isn't purely numbers-checking the other player like Heal, Ghost, and Barrier tend to do. can you give an example of this that people would actually use
Make wind wall a summoner spell
: Please bring back strategy.
I haven't had any trouble not forcing an endless all in every 2 minutes. Are you sure the problem is with the game?
: The thing is, drafting strategy works well in DOTA as a core part of gameplay because every champion is free there. If they added it on LoL it would create a lot of pay2win scenarios that they seem to want to avoid. Thats why LoL is more generic and usually caters to one tricks, because with its current business model it can hardly afford to add more layers to strategy (and diversity for that matter), which in turn makes the game harder to balance. Furthermore, in order to keep the game interesting with part of the strategy gone they have to give more focus to muh flashy LC$ mechanical/reflex-based outplays, you probably know the drill. Auras go against the fundamental cores of that philosophy because even if they balance the game they dont add mechanical depth nor interactivity. Sure you can add break, dispels and what not but they are generally point and click so they arent eXcITiNg™ and they wouldnt work well as skillshots either for a bunch of reasons. On the other hand delayed dispels are pointless. And Id say it is a philosophy already shared by most of the player base even if they tell you otherwise, really, as you can see with the infamous "muh counterplay" and "muh skillshots". To finish just superficially point out Rito Game's stance on the "burden of knowledge" and of course the classic CLARITY™, aka given that we are going casual might as well go all the way. Everything has to be intuitive, ~~flashy~~ easy to understand through merely visuals and easy to learn. Unfortunately buffs/debuffs and having an overload of actives generally dont go well with these principles. TL;DR: DOTA is designed to be a slower, knowledge based game with a niche market. Due to the limitations of its business model League is designed to be a casual ~~farming simulator~~ mechanic intensive clown fiesta.
You're right. I still think both ends of the spectrum can exist and would actually get along decently together if Riot put forth the effort - reliable, simple effects would provide a good counter balance to the flashier champions who trade reliability for agency. Of course, I'm not really a fan of the one-trick pandering Riot's been up to, so I have some obvious biases on the conversation.
Elf0491 (NA)
: Yeah, it does a frankly terrible job. I remember my first time playing the game, and having absolutely no idea what was going on. The in game tutorial is 10x better now than it was then, and it's still pretty bad. I mean, realize that people have written entire posts/articles about minion wave management, a single aspect of a single phase of the game that barely even touches on your actual human opponents. There are about a billion things going on under the hood, even just from strict unknowns, like how long your opponent's remaining cooldowns are, or what specific runes they are running. Add to this the fact that you must simultaneously keep track of a dozen different things, and it becomes very complicated even with simple mechanics!
I'm surprised people don't talk about the tutorial very often. I guess it's because we're all past it, but I played through the new one and it still didn't really tell me anything. Definitely deserving of another take.
: Especially more actives for tank items. Zzrot is niche as all hell. The only good actives on tank items (and honestly the only good ones) are Randuins, Stoneplate, and Righteous Glory. I didn't add Binds (they are simple) and Locket (Its kinda a dead item with how badly it got nerfed for what it did in the ardent meta) for their respective reasons. Adding more actives to some of those items could add more of a "fun" impact factor to tanks, who lack in the "flashy" combo department.
blink dagger would be a dream come true on way too many of my champions, lol.
Anìmê (NA)
: Reminder: Karma Update is Still Supposedly Going to Happen Even After the Extreme Criticism
could still see more changes to it, im sure riot noticed the criticism
: Removing Aura's destroyed alot of the playmaking in Lol, among other braindead changes.
I don't think Auras had much to do with playmaking but I think they were a very underappreciated asset to game balance that Riot didn't find a good way to make more obvious and appreciated.
: We ain't DotA. League is all about clearly conveying exactly what's going on with very little "under the hood" stuff going on. And that's precisely the reason why auras were removed, not because they lacked counterplay. Riot's philosophy is that "invisible power" is no bueno. It's made that way on purpose so there's nowhere near as much of a burden of knowledge for new players unlike DotA where even after a year you're still learning the system. Not hatin on DotA, it's cool in its own way for that reason. League and DotA are just completely different animals created for different animals.
> League is all about clearly conveying exactly what's going on with very little "under the hood" stuff going on. I don't think it does a good job of that, then. Given that everything is becoming skillshot based or delayed, usually with an indicator, and especially within the context of the current damage meta, I find myself struggling to understand what's happening sometimes with all the hitbox overlaps and massive amounts of AOE just being dumped everywhere in a teamfight. Especially with champions like Irelia who by themselves are so _active_ that keeping track of one champion by herself is a burden, putting her with 4 potentially equally flashy teammates can quickly become a real mess. I think auras, buffs and debuffs can also be given higher clarity than a small indicator on your HP bar. Granted, if they're so generous that they start to overlap a lot, you run into the same problem I listed above.
: How soon people forget Runic Bulwark stacking. Riot has no idea how to make the game balanced like IceFrog could for DotA. God I miss that guy. The thing about DotA is that the power comes from items and builds more than individual hero abilities or gimmicks (usually). Every item is a rock/paper/scissor to something. It's all about how you use it.
I really admire DOTA's item system and I've tried to push for some momentum on more actives in the game. No luck, but I'll probably keep bringing it up because the item system has so much unused potential, it's bothered me before I started playing dota
: The League community's obsession with 'counterplay' confuses me. Breaks, mutes, etc... are all really cool mechanics in Dota, but would be hard to retroactively fit into LoL. I would think that the 'counterplay' of auras would be the power budget of the item and how they inherently get even weaker than they already have to be when it is effecting less and less people. offensive - Abyssal scepter had a low range of effect to encourage riskier play, and since its effect was in an aoe for the whole team to enjoy its effects were much weaker than its sibling Void Staff. defensive - Old aegis was a fantastic team item, but it also suffered from its value being rather useless on an individual basis. The target would likely either be so squishy that they could be merced, or on a tankier champ it would usually be at the expense of a more offensive item, thus gimping the characters they were put on themselves. New Solari is a pretty neato take on the concept though.
The community generally is confused on what they want; they really like to tell you how much they miss strategy but if you bring up any of the old strategic things they'll generally tell you it's a toxic stat-check; give them strategic things that appeal to their mechanical desires and they'll tell you it's unfair (Wind Wall, Shroud). It's not a good idea to try arguing with them about it; I've found just stating your point concisely gets you good results.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iltRO6mz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-20T00:25:55.293+0000) > > Pick order doesn't get anyone to Diamond, but I appreciate your attempt at misdirecting the topic. Evidently it does. People always like to default to, "it's not my champion that's overpowered, it's just that I'm better than everyone."
Shame you can't get there, then, isn't it mate >People always like to default to, "it's not my champion that's overpowered, it's just that I'm better than everyone." evidently I'm better than you are. Do you have anything to contribute beyond your usual mudslinging or should I just start ignoring you?
: Of course you're a proponent of champion select deciding matches. You play a champion whose performance is decided not by skill, but by pick order.
Pick order doesn't get anyone to Diamond, but I appreciate your attempt at misdirecting the topic.
: It being strong or weak isn't the point of the thread. The issue is having 80% of mages with the same build and the easiness with which few items cghanges can make or break a lot of mages.
it's not like anyone else has a massive variety of build choices
Rioter Comments
Wuks (NA)
: Season 8 Boards Badges are being distributed
put my badges on this account thanks
: Nerf Volibear
: Juggernaut was a season 5 riot mind baby so i dont know what you talking about season 4 season for most Juggernaut's were considered tanks thus they built like tanks did and even bruisers built sunfire cape first item season 3 and 4 until riot gutted the damage on the item. Riot didnt give us the black cleaver in season 5 either it was a attack speed fighter item before season 5. They reworked the item from some champions to another set of champions.
an official group name doesn't change the champions. except for the reworked 4 they were the same exact champs before and after the update. BC was a flat shred item before the s5 rework; if it had attack speed that was way before any time I joined, but i remember it building from brutalizer
Kadexe (NA)
: People keep saying it's a problem that Flash is so ubiquitous, but I've yet to see someone explain how the game would be more fun if Flash was nerfed into the dirt.
i dont know where you gathered "nerf flash" from my post
: Post ur ideas
i forgot what they were
: What are you talking about? She destroys Darius. You have to respect him a bit until 6. But any time her ult is up he absolutely cannot fight her. I pick her into Darius every time I see him.
Darius beats Illaoi; DirtyMobs, the best Illaoi in NA right now, lists him as a hard matchup
: So according to boards...
considering that old scaling hp runes let you get 270 at lvl 18 and you could also get free bonus HP from strength of the ages (300, before it was removed) and veteran's scars (a flat 50 hp) yeah i wouldn't say the current hp bonus is anything special
: Is it worth learning Illaoi?
yes, collecting free elo from bad players while Illaoi teaches you a strong set of fundamentals on macro play is a win-win situation.
: Oh so we get Runes Reforged: The Sequel? Can't wait >:)
RR is stat checking made complicated, nothing like what I'd have in mind
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VBu1sHNO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T02:26:55.592+0000) > > Juggernauts don't ruin anything and haven't been particularly offensive with any items not "meant" for them; tank items are, indeed, meant for them, because they're meant to want to buy durability. Sterak's was designed explicitly for them and not Divers. Divers have provably been bigger troublemakers when it comes to taking items intended for other champions, whether you look at any point in time Lethality was a strong enough stat that burst-focused Divers turned into assassins, or J4/Kled/Renekton stealing Gargoyle's Stoneplate, or even right now with how they've basically hijacked Sterak's after the bonus AD change. If you wanted to complain about Juggernauts being annoying on full tank builds you should have listed Mundo and Olaf who warp into top tier champions all the way up the ladder as soon as defense is good enough for them to work. > > Darius does not have built in defense; nothing in his kit reduces damage he's going to take. Most juggernauts do not have superior innate defenses compared to a Diver or a Skirmisher, which is why they're incentivized to build heavier into defense and why their base damage is higher to compensate. Juggernauts generally rely on sustain to keep them alive, otherwise they might have a shield. Shyvana has barely any defenses at all. Garen is the odd one out with % damage reduction, which is compensated by him being Garen. That's backwards reasoning. No, tank items are not designed for them. In the same way that critical hit items are not designed for Tryndamere. They're mainly balanced and designed around the main class intended for them, with the smaller subclass abusing them because they can. Juggernaut is not a class that belongs in a 5v5 team game. Just because they're described as raid bosses who are supposed to take more than one enemy to beat doesn't mean that that's fair to the enemies who now have to 3v4 the rest of the team. And your comparison for divers isn't really suitable. When divers built lethality, it just made them into what many already had listed as secondary roles-- assassins. But when Darius, Garen, or Illaoi (who do have both higher innate defense, and the very high in-kit healing that you seem to not count as defense) build Trinity Force, they aren't sacrificing anything noticeable because their sustain is built-in. When they can instead build tank items, which haven't been strong for a year and a half now thanks to the Tank "Update", they have the reverse problem, as I said. Aside from that, it isn't genuine to take the retroactive naming approach to what you call a juggernaut. Shyvanna is not a juggernaut, though she may be a beefy bruiser she lacks the common threads the actual juggernauts share. Plus, simply saying, "Garen is Garen so it's okay," doesn't mean anything.
Yes, tank items are designed for them because they are designed to buy tank items. This has been true since the beginning of time and only changed when Riot started to jank with the items. Tryndamere is indeed designed around crit and crit is an intended stat for him to use; this only changed when Riot began altering the stat without him in consideration. Crit was not a stat only marksmen bought until Riot removed it from items like Ghostblade or took out of the game entirely (Atma's, SoTD). Juggernauts do not force you to send multiple to deal with them unless you can't duel them. Even then most of them have very obvious counterplay of either avoiding delayed skillshots or kiting them, either until their buffs wear out or getting them off of their buff zones. They pretty much universally struggle into skirmishers and they have plenty of harder matchups into divers as well. Considering out-of-lane interactions control/waveclear mages are an easy counterpick against pretty much all of them from the mid lane. The only time you can't handle them 1on1 is if you've fed them, you don't understand their counterplay, or if you're a champion they're intended to counter -- which is mainly tanks. > But when Darius, Garen, or Illaoi (who do have both higher innate defense, and the very high in-kit healing that you seem to not count as defense) build Trinity Force Trinity Force is not an 'offensive' item for these champions to buy. They still fit into the wide bruiser umbrella and have kits that clearly let them apply it to good effect. Why you would say this is abuse of an item is beyond me. Why is my comparison for divers not suitable? They've abused items from both ends when they are intended to be their 'own' class. >who do have both higher innate defense Negligible base stat differences in the very late game are not what I would call higher innate defense in any way that matters. Comparing to recent Divers who I consider the standard other Divers will be updated and designed around, a Juggernaut being able to heal decently if they play well or the enemy plays sloppily does not measure up to getting to completely ignore all damage from beyond a circular radius, an on-demand damage reduction, untargetability, adaptive shielding, etc. Even older Divers have generous shielding like J4, who I would consider to be a very durable champion. Most means of Diver survival can not be easily reduced by debuffs like Grievous Wounds, and any healing they DO have is generally not their only way to stay alive, AND they're usually on-demand compared to someone like Illaoi having conditional healing or Trundle having conditional durability on his R, because it's based off the stats of whoever he ults. The juggernauts you've listed don't out-survive these champions except for Garen, and he needs that because he lacks the killing power the other two have while lacking the escape potential of more mobile fighters. Again, if you wanted to make this comparison you should not be using Darius or Illaoi for it. Udyr, or Urgot, or even Mundo's absurd healing would make better cases for it. Divers still have very generous innate defenses and this is part of the problem with Sterak's being rebalanced for them to want to buy it. Many divers can have the durability of a juggernaut now, which is admittedly not much in season 9 but still "enough," then juggernauts lose their main advantage which is having superior defensive itemization. Shyvana is officially listed as a Juggernaut by Riot and has been since season 5. I don't know what you're accusing me of; I'm using Riot's official classification for her.
: I was planning on starting my own thread about this, but the thing is Juggernauts ruin itemization for both bruisers and tanks. If tank items are strong enough, Darius and Garen can just build full defense and their base damage is enough for anything. And if fighter items are strong enough, they can just buy those and their kits' built in defense means they aren't subject to the downsides of not building full defense.
Juggernauts don't ruin anything and haven't been particularly offensive with any items not "meant" for them; tank items are, indeed, meant for them, because they're meant to want to buy durability. Sterak's was designed explicitly for them and not Divers. Divers have provably been bigger troublemakers when it comes to taking items intended for other champions, whether you look at any point in time Lethality was a strong enough stat that burst-focused Divers turned into assassins, or J4/Kled/Renekton stealing Gargoyle's Stoneplate, or even right now with how they've basically hijacked Sterak's after the bonus AD change. If you wanted to complain about Juggernauts being annoying on full tank builds you should have listed Mundo and Olaf who warp into top tier champions all the way up the ladder as soon as defense is good enough for them to work. >their kits' built in defense Darius does not have built in defense; nothing in his kit reduces damage he's going to take. Most juggernauts do not have superior innate defenses compared to a Diver or a Skirmisher, which is why they're incentivized to build heavier into defense and why their base damage is higher to compensate. Juggernauts generally rely on sustain to keep them alive, otherwise they might have a shield. Shyvana has barely any defenses at all. Garen is the odd one out with % damage reduction, which is compensated by him being Garen.
: Bruiser's issue is that they don't have a niche, not that they can't compete with tanks or adcs
juggernauts are the antithesis of marksmen in that they're meant to be team dependent; at least, the carry-style champions like Darius and Illaoi, who are meant to rely on their mates to help them get in and do their thing. thing is they don't actually replace a marksman basically ever, so they're competing for teammate resources in a way that they'll never win, because they're *also* generally occupying the same lane you'd put your tank in. You can fix this easily by shifting whichever juggernauts you want to be carry-like into being more gold-dependent than XP reliant. Some juggernauts are already quite like this (Volibear) and struggle bot lane primarily due to just having bad item choices.
: > [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-19T00:58:19.933+0000) > > A bunch of HP? 300 is a bunch? Mages have no sustain, they need HP, I'd gladly trade some HP for a way for Mages to sustain. you mean like the spell vamp which use to be the 3rd stat mages had, but rito removed? because people cried about mages getting hp back? the reason morellos gives hp was because it use to have spell vamp also seen very few ap bursters would build crystal scepter. the rylas is more a ap bruser item then ap burster
mages trying to revise history again? there were 4 champs who bought spellvamp at all -- mord, vlad, akali and kat - prior to it being deleted as a stat and after WOTA stacking was justly dealt with. there was no "3rd stat;" mages did not buy it, and if it was good at all then it was obscene on the champs who did.
: I hope the Artillery Meta is here to stay for a good while
: Champions that break the rules of the game should be removed
: When tank items were good juggernauts would buy more damage because even when tank items were good there are still not comparable to damage items not instadieing if you dont have tank items mean that you can dip into heaveier damage items {{item:3812}} {{item:3080}} {{item:3508}} if it wasnt getting reworked to only be used by 3 champions again.
that's not true at all, many juggernauts could even afford to buy Sunfire on their first item as far back as season 4 in top lane, and we also had many juggernauts who could jungle -- most of them built tankier than they do now. it wasn't until the official juggernaut patch in season 5 which gave us Black Cleaver that they had a "definitive" core item and buying more AD became encouraged.
: are we pretending that Volibear gets played because he is good and a good juggernaut and not because the enemy made the mistake of picking something close range so We picked voilbear to flip it into our team and keep the enemy isolated from helping the target by being a meat ball?
so volibear clearly doing something that gives him a reason to be picked makes him not bad? are you just pretending that you know what you're talking about to cover up the fact that you hate volibear for completely arbitrary reasons?
: What's the scariest champion for somebody to master?
: Why is Gangplank's E so overloaded?
because a champ with huge range advantage over most of the roster and 0 counterplay for most melees needs lots of extra safety measures so you can be sure he "outplayed" you
: If you could change a champions epithet what would it be ¿
Candoodle (EUW)
: #10yearchallenge
it's a downgrade
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-18T12:59:44.294+0000) > > why don't you just buy a ghostblade if you're looking for damage, it'd give you more for Garen than DD i'd imagine ghostblade is usually my first choice. but i was looking into combat sustain options.
I don't imagine DD would be good on Garen since he's not quite doing *enough* dmg that DD's healing becomes significant. especially with how spread out it is; if E counted as single target IF it was only hitting one person it might be decent for dueling people suppose the bleed would be good for him but that'd muck up your healing out of combat
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-18T11:42:41.633+0000) > > well yeah, cuz tank items are beyond garbo right now. not really a fair comparison; when tank items were GOOD most juggs would be happy to buy them up. in 2019 kill or be killed meta not buying as much AD as you can sit on is basically asking to stop being relevant its not just the tank items. you want to deal damage with a jugger, and most juggers are balanced around the existence of steraks. back during season 5, the rioters working on the class update said that juggers should reach ideally around 250 ad with {{item:3053}} {{item:3071}} into tank items. if were realistic, you need 300 to 400 ad on a jugger to deal enough sustained damage to actually carry right now, or {{item:3078}} to burst out squishies. i experimented with {{item:3812}} builds recently, and got about 300 ad with death dance, cleaver and steraks on garen. that felt like the point where i dealt enough damage to have an impact.
why don't you just buy a ghostblade if you're looking for damage, it'd give you more for Garen than DD i'd imagine
: Riven vs garen. Who wins?
Riven beats Garen if she's any good at the game
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-01-18T11:31:36.967+0000) > > juggernauts need bulk more than anything and given that the most successful juggernauts in high ELO, historically, have been full tank or really close to it, I would say this is correct. The "lots of HP mediocre resists" thing they've been pushing in s5 and with the s7 tank item changes hasn't panned out for the ones who don't ignore the rule entirely > > {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} and more recently {{champion:6}} all basically get 1 or no damage items and still remain potent damage threats. {{champion:106}} also makes occasional dips into pro play every other season and he's generally full tank. > > The Sterak's AD only actually helps about half of the juggernaut roster; the other half almost never buy it. HP and armor and becoming a pure durability item would make it a very likable item for all of them. There's also to note that being tankier means you'll live longer and therefore will do more damage, if you're doing damage at all. > > I think that juggernauts should push harder into high durability than obscene AD values, even if that requires some tweaking try to play {{champion:86}} without steraks gage, and with 4 tank items instead. its ass. you need the steraks power spike on him and other juggers. like i said. not that im against turning it into a defensive item generally, but theyd need a 70 base ad increase to compensate. id rather want riot to revert steraks to base ad increase, rework sheen to prevent trigage scaling, and add {{item:3005}} with a base ad increase.
well yeah, cuz tank items are beyond garbo right now. not really a fair comparison; when tank items were GOOD most juggs would be happy to buy them up. in 2019 kill or be killed meta not buying as much AD as you can sit on is basically asking to stop being relevant
: > [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-18T08:53:39.757+0000) > > Give {{item:3053}} 60* Armor instead of AD and it would be more like a Juggernaut Item again. > I would love it. > > ### *actually 75-80 Armor would be about the same average gold value as the damage right now. So it has to be 2800-2900g instead of 3200g. juggernauts need a mix of ad/health to work. thats why the item was made for them. if you turned steraks gage into a armor/health item, all juggers would need a 70 base ad increase at lvl 18. the problem is the steraks change from a base ad increase to bonus ad, so now champions like {{champion:114}} have it in their core build, because it feeds into their ability damage after the change.
juggernauts need bulk more than anything and given that the most successful juggernauts in high ELO, historically, have been full tank or really close to it, I would say this is correct. The "lots of HP mediocre resists" thing they've been pushing in s5 and with the s7 tank item changes hasn't panned out for the ones who don't ignore the rule entirely {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} and more recently {{champion:6}} all basically get 1 or no damage items and still remain potent damage threats. {{champion:106}} also makes occasional dips into pro play every other season and he's generally full tank. The Sterak's AD only actually helps about half of the juggernaut roster; the other half almost never buy it. HP and armor and becoming a pure durability item would make it a very likable item for all of them. There's also to note that being tankier means you'll live longer and therefore will do more damage, if you're doing damage at all. I think that juggernauts should push harder into high durability than obscene AD values, even if that requires some tweaking
: Brusier items are disgustingly over tuned and im sick of it.
>Remember when bruisers actually had to build 1-2 tank items yeah I remember that boards whined to the moon and back that bruisers were "abusing" tank items and that they should be forced to buy more AD and have their own items. funny how things work out, isn't it?
: I mean, He still has his objective control, counter-jungling and he still buffs (although only one person and is automated). The only new thing he got was CC instead of debuffs. [And his stats seems pretty good unless I messed something up](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Nunu/)
His objective control and camp stealing, as well as his buffing, are husks of what they used to be; Nunu cannot safely kill early dragons anymore by himself because his buff strength AND duration are worse. Riot should have kept him as a buff/debuff-centric tank, it's a far more interesting role to fill into than another tank with mediocre engage and more delayed "zoning" spells, and it's a role that no tank actually fills anymore.
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Moody P

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