Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iu90wej,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-04-26T11:21:53.020+0000) > > Range has an undeniable and noticeeably easier time avoiding most CC > > but don't let that stop you from arguing a point he didn't make lul Most ranged champions especially ADC's can't afford to take things like Mercury Treads, Legend Tenacity unlike Melee. Taking those on a Melee champion most of the time doesn't affect your overall power. Legend Alacrity/Bloodline/ Attack Speed boots are huge power gains for Marksmen and other attack speed/lifesteal reliant champions.
that doesn't change that its basically inevitable as a melee especially an immobile one that you're going to be eating CC Stacking tenacity is basically necessary and it can still be rendered useless against displacements or spammable enough crowd control
: > Go watch any stream where someone is playing a melee champion and you will undoubtedly hear this several times. I can assure you ranged champs don't suddenly ignore all CC. This whole melee elitist thing is worse than melee elitists in smash lmao. I'd agree that CC'd to death happens more often these days. But this pathetic ass attitude of players who for some petty reason only play melee champs is so off putting at this point.
Range has an undeniable and noticeeably easier time avoiding most CC but don't let that stop you from arguing a point he didn't make lul
: yeah but riot dident like champ kits giving free stats. taric ad/ap on ult zilian xp gain global tf gold gain global ww as boost on w those are the only ones i recall.
Yeah but they released ornn and they keep buffing his free stats so they should be fine with it now if they aren't hypocrites
: “I can’t move my character”
>only for tanks No, and cringe, even marksmen should have some hard CC tbh the real truth is that CC needs to be reverted to high duration high cool down and/or almost strictly relegated to ultimate spells. The shift to low duration but low cool down combined with CDR abundance makes it impossible to move because it's borderline spammable now. There is NO thought that goes into most CC today because you can just radiate slows and snares and if you missed it will be up in ~3-6 seconds late game anyway
Reav3 (NA)
: yes
Can you let certainlyt or myself rework Volibear
Spotty (NA)
: why is every new character drawn like those ridiculous chibi cartoons?
: League News: TFBlade wrongfully banned by Twitch
if twitch actually thought he said the n word they wouldn't have reduced it to a 7 day btw
: [Board Update] Endgame Weekend: No Spoilers!
don't spoil my capeshit please!!!!!
: why do all the cute bubbly champions have to be girls?
Mártir (EUW)
: Yuumi Supp skills, leaked
It's shit gg guess I'll wait for the best enchanter in 2023
Zeyphel (NA)
: So, you are saying he should be strong at 1 vs 1, and also at team fighting. He should also be a strong scaling champion without a weak early. Yeah, makes total sense. We having champions today that way, doesn't mean that champions should be that way. You are basically taking the same philosophy of Riot. X champ has too much of everything. Well, lets give Y and Z champs too much of everything too, so that they become "balanced". Look what that philosophy achieved through the years...
: So you believe that good champion design is giving champions tools to outplay every situation? Genuine question id like you to explain what you think makes a good champion
Good design is letting a champion do the thing they're designed to do. Warwick completely loses usability outside of a 1v1 and his dueling power doesn't scale remarkably well either. The champion is outclassed heavily by other diver junglers that have more reliability and better damage.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Sadly I did not. Looks like it got ate, I checked your Comment history just incase and I only have this one and the "I don't feel that way' as reply's to me. I am always interested to hear others perspectives on game design. Sorry, i know how much it sucks to lose a wall worth of effort.
OK well I'll just try to keep it brief then IMO this issue is fixed vy broadening your limits for what champs can do. I personally think auras and nonsupports having team buffs should be more prevalent as well as counter picking and champions designed to just utterly demolish certain picks and strategies. This is also why I like CT champions so much; he's the only dev who does this with designs like Akali and Yasuo that are clearly designed to counter certain champions while still having high mechanical depth. I think the issue you described is only because LOL really limits it's champions way too hard in terms of kit. Assassins and tbh a lot of fighters and marksman are just underloaded and don't stand out in any way, so they just compete by having the best numbers at the time. I don't like that Try looking at some dota kits. It doesn't need to be so extreme but their characters are deliberately distinct and it creates so many interesting possibilities for team comps and strategies to run with that I sorely want for League
Kai Guy (NA)
: And my perspective is that the rooster is large enough to account for variance by MMR with out removing viable playstyles. Theres enough left over champions to provide an option for all standard playpatterns. Also, nonstandard patterns are unlikely to be found on low floor champions and be healthy for the game. (Old ap sion, Trist, i am looking right at you two.) Then the fact that reliability is still a positive trait that makes some lower ceiling champions enjoy viability in response to meta shifts. I believe The Style of balance for League is similar to MTG in that the devs try to achieve perfect imbalance. Not having all champions viable across the entirety of the game does not harm the games balance assuming players are self aware enough to realize this. The ones who cant or wont just have to live with that lack of awareness hurting them. Frankly I just see no way around it. You can't put 100+ kits on the same power budget of equal floosr to ceilings. Hell Battlerites got almost all the basic ability's working off identical base mechanics and its the rites/individual differences that make for floor/ceilings that create viability. They cant make it work with almost every ability's core functionality being shared between a rooster of only 25 Kits. If you have kits, expect imbalance. If you have imbalance you better make that your games balance philosophy if you want it to have replay value. I don't mind if champions are all done to try and have a wider range of viability. Just that its clearly not the case for the current game state ({{champion:13}} {{champion:268}} in iron when used by non smurfs, WW in the upper MMR your talking about.) With out going into much depth, heres the issues I see with what you want. If you make all champions equally power curved with out the same floor/ceeling then your left with high skill cap champions being bad picks, their best case is the same as some one else who does it with less effort. That makes the high skill champion less viable in all MMR ranges. If you have different best cases off floors and ceilings like we currently do, your left with issues where once a player can hit a better best case on a skill cap, theres no reason to play a champion with a lower cap unless you cant consistently hit best cases. This makes the game like what we see where there is a smaller # of viable champions in highest tiers of play. Do you have a good way to fix this? Or would you be content t to see something that's a compromise where its more in-between the two so that a higher # of champions enjoy wider viability even if not quite the entirety of the ladder? To raise the lower end champions to have better floor ceilings.
hey you wouldn't happen to see the reply I wrote before this would you? I wrote a few paragraphs and I think boards ate my post
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=snwA6JnE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-24T23:47:51.248+0000) > > Win rate really isnt an accurate measure of strength for most champions. Especially not Ryze, who is still a high value pick in competitive and high elo and has very good performances on his dedicated player base. The average win rate only really tells you how well the average player (e.g not a dedicated player) can do with them, and it's only something you should consider if it's unusual (e.g a very low skill floor champion like Garen having a 46% winrate), or a very sudden spike in performance either way (if Vayne dropped to 40% overnight). > > Ryze is essentially balanced at 43% because he is balanced around his best players and not someone who plays him occasionally. This is hard to explain to people because they really like to center around the idea that a 50% automatically implies presence. > > ADC has always been like that. If you don’t use winrates which are the only available statistics to judge a champions performance then you are just rolling dice to decide what champions are buffed and nerfed. Or you are adjusting based on feelings. Neither of which is a practice of good balance in a game. So either situation ends up with major inbalance. And yes. Adc has always been like that. Hence balance is not even close to good at any point in this game.
presence is a lot more important. Irelia had a 47% Win rate in soloQ at one of her strongest points in pro play and still got nerfed. Most champions who are very strong will have high pick or ban rates even if their win rate isnt high. Ezreal is the most recent example of this and many people in ranks higher than my own told me he was the best champion in the game despite also having a mediocre win%
: I'm tired of hugging the tower while Zed gets to free farm and harass me endlessly for 10-20 minutes
Most mages can pretty handily poke Zed out because his main strong trade has a high CD Mana as a resource greatly outscales energy, so energy is made to be superior in the early game
Kai Guy (NA)
: > a champion who has absolutely zero competitive value is trash and should be up for an immediate evaluation. I disagree. Champions should have varying degrees of viability across the ladder. You should have some champions who exist to help players learn mechanics, Lower skill floor lower skill ceiling, and this champion should not enjoy high viability in any MMR you reasonably expect players to hit a higher ceiling on other champions whos best cases are stronger. Reliability is a positive trait in a kit until personal skill makes other kits reliable. This is not related specifically to WW just an over reaching opinion for the game.
I don't feel that way. IMO all champions should be designed and reworked with the idea that they should be viable in a competitive setting; I want to see LCS actually represent the entire champion pool because to me, if you're balancing a whole chunk of champions around different elos, then you're not really balancing the game. It's very frustrating to have to stop playing a champion you like because they just don't work after you reach a certain level of play.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=snwA6JnE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-24T23:20:17.304+0000) > > The disparity between good and bad champions is the lowest it's ever been in my opinion and Riot has done a good job balancing in the context of their current design I think we are playing two very different games. Amumu. 54.47% winrate the past week. Ryze. 43.9% winrate the past week. Also have you played adc in the past year? That role is litteraly pick top 3 or feed.
Win rate really isnt an accurate measure of strength for most champions. Especially not Ryze, who is still a high value pick in competitive and high elo and has very good performances on his dedicated player base. The average win rate only really tells you how well the average player (e.g not a dedicated player) can do with them, and it's only something you should consider if it's unusual (e.g a very low skill floor champion like Garen having a 46% winrate), or a very sudden spike in performance either way (if Vayne dropped to 40% overnight). Ryze is essentially balanced at 43% because he is balanced around his best players and not someone who plays him occasionally. This is hard to explain to people because they really like to center around the idea that a 50% automatically implies presence. ADC has always been like that.
Rioter Comments
Nhika (NA)
: So few champion choices.
The disparity between good and bad champions is the lowest it's ever been in my opinion and Riot has done a good job balancing in the context of their current design
Sukishoo (NA)
: only one upset here is you about your Voli lellelele. GL BB.
Sukishoo (NA)
: You don't post from a real account so no one believes it :)
I don't really care. Since you people get so upset when I call you out on your rank and "all opinions matter!" you shouldn't mind.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Don't pay attention to him. He just comes here to try and act like a big shot when he's hiding on that level 7 account that he doesn't even use cause he doesn't actually play the game.
I'm at minimum 2 divisions above 80% of boards. that's a pretty good qualifier tbh
Saezio (EUNE)
: Well, still WW is better than old WW. I think CT did the best he could with such a simplistic kit, new Q at least requires skill and if you are really good at predicting you can even follow flashes with it. Sure he ain't picked in pro but I don't think old one was either, except for a tiny bit when he was played toplane. His new R relying on opponent not dodging is what makes sure he will never be good in pro I think.
Its not that R can be avoided, it's that he can't stop you from stopping his suppression Warwick old R was instant so he was guaranteed at least your reaction time before he could get peeled off (and he did way more damage too) new WW has the dash time and the W sound and it's just so easy to completely shut him down even though he played perfectly because he can't stop you
: if you ever doubt the extent of power creep in this game
garen has never been a good champion and a design as weak as his shouldn't be used as a metric here
: And they're not, as evidenced by Ashe, Annie, Garen, and others, so go back to your shitposts and bother someone else.
why are you talking about other champions when the convo is about Warwick, who is useless in high elo and one of the least picked champions in competitive? champ is garbage and Xin Zhao outclasses him while being just as easy to play
: Reminder, he said that he was in one of the Twitch streams released as a QnA about Warwick. And even if you don't believe it, you still cannot deny that Warwick being a noob champ HAD to adhere to some standards and retain certain elements and a degree of simplicity in his kit that CertainlyT avoids like the bubonic plague. If he can't have ability tool tips with page tabs, he's not happy.
noob champ shouldn't be synonymous with shit champ, so this rework isnt good. Akali was far better
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ER3QfbZE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-24T20:14:51.320+0000) > > You forgot "worthless against good players" Moody, im kinda new to the boards, but do you just come in to diss player's arguments?
I just don't like people fawning over the weakest rework in the game, a champion who has absolutely zero competitive value is trash and should be up for an immediate evaluation. It's sad that Volibear of all people manages higher presence than Warwick.
: Warwick is the only proof we have that if you put CertainlyT in thumbscrews for designing champions, he can actually make brilliant things, instead of when he's allowed to run free and ruin the game with his "fun and innovative" designs like Kalista and Zoe.
reminder that there's no evidence of this being CT getting held back and boards just propagates it so they don't have to admit he's good
: I just want to take the time to acknowledge how good of a VGU Warwick is
: My review of Mortal Kombat 11
The story is garbage Stop shilling
: Are Reworks coming out Fast Enough?
: Focus on Mini-VGU & Not on New Champions
Volibear doesn't need a VGU though
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=tiinpItX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-23T18:41:54.988+0000) > > Yes, other champions do not need to be completely reinvented. Mordekaiser is the last one. ^ Most of the remaining champs really only need slight adjustments or kit work. I don't think Mundo's kit needs to be 100% replaced. Volibear needs work but there's a solid idea to salvage. Malphite might be a mess but he's a workable mess.
QMighty (NA)
: Keep fighting the good fight, brother.
As a warrior of truth I will never falter
Reav3 (NA)
: I want to take a minute to answer this from my perspective. First of all our intentions of doing less VGUs and more New Champs was actually based on caring for the playerbase as well as from player feedback we have gotten over the years as we have done New Champs and VGUs. Let me go into a bit more detail though. First when I said less VGUs I didnt mean we would stop doing them, I just meant we would slow down. Expect to still see plenty of VGUs in the future, just not as many as we have been doing last year. The reason why I feel that his is coming from a caring place is this. There are many players that share your perspective, that they want their main updated, and changed. But you have to understand there are also many other players that love their Champion, and find it very frustrating when they are updated even if many other players think the update makes them way better. We have to care about these players as well, and whenever we do VGUs we also cause a lot of disruption and frustration from players over their Champion being changed. New Champions generally don't cause this player pain. Last year we actually saw a lot higher player frustration over change, partly due to how many old Champions we were updating and changing, with many older players feeling alienated by the changes. At this point, after Morde, many of the Champions we would consider for a VGU have much higher players bases then the Champions we were doing VGUs on in the past. This isn't to say there isn't value in doing them, but if we were doing them at the rate we were doing them last year, on Champions with bigger player bases, then that is many more players that would feel frustrated or alienated by the changes, even if many other players like them. This isn't to say we want to stop doing them as we feel there is value in the game feeling modern and up to date, which means we value updating the things that are getting old and dated. The Champions on the list just aren't as dated as some of the ones we did over the last couple years, and as a result the value in updating them isn't as high, and also has a higher disruption and player pain cost since the Champions have bigger player bases.
Volibear confirmed NEVER REWORK. Feels great, feels fantastic, thank you.
: They make a poll for who gets a VGU in 2020
It's not going to be Volibear because I have 3000 shell accounts to rig any of these votes in my favor
Shahamut (NA)
: I was very active during the juggernaut fiasco, specifically in regards to Skarner. I specifically said that he would be overtuned on release, and that he would get nerfed immediately. I also gave lots of reasons why it should have never happened in the first place. The lack of actual communication, discussion, and general involvement of the community is what made the juggernaut reworks (Skarner and Morde more so) the worst.
community involvement is exactly why skarner was busted on day 1 though
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ooWKOlHG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-23T18:49:29.060+0000) > > unfortunate that anybody would compare something to nunu and say that's a positive People love reworks when they preserve their "identity"
> [{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ooWKOlHG,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-23T19:26:53.397+0000) > > People love reworks when they preserve their "identity" People love a rework that doesn't dare to be interesting or offer any unique strengths whatsoever and just exists as a filler for until Riot buffs other tanks and then he becomes irrelevant trash lol
iiGazeii (NA)
: Roadmap confirmed the new enchanter is female
I am so ready for catgirls in League
: Champions I think should be reworked
Zoli Ben (EUNE)
: She did Ezreal rework, but now doing a full VGU.
Then I'm fucked
Zoli Ben (EUNE)
: Chose a VGU for 2020
Volibear doesn't need a VGU so why would he be getting one Who is Reinboom anyway lmao I don't want some random touching my champion
: Riot said Mordekaisers rework will be Urgot, Nunu, Swain size...
unfortunate that anybody would compare something to nunu and say that's a positive
Reav3 (NA)
: Axes
can you let Certainly T or myself rework Volibear
: I can't really agree with these soraka changes on PBE
remember when riot used to say that dedicated healing was toxic? Here they are, doubling down on dedicated healing
SSmotzer (NA)
: "Mordekaiser ... the last of the champions in need of his level of work"
Yes, other champions do not need to be completely reinvented. Mordekaiser is the last one.
: Champion Roadmap: April 2019
Pantheon BTFO Volibear wins again
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Moody P

Level 7 (NA)
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