: > They build mana so they don't have to worry about mana late game > The point of Mana Drain is to make that fear remain throughout the game. Not worrying about mana in late is exactly the point of building mana. Imagine someone saying "junglers don't have to worry about jungle sustain in late game, lets change it". Mana is a dead stat. It gives nothing else but the ability to use spells. Its both the weakness(cant spam much early, regen is too slow) and strength(can spam late, regen is faster) of mana users. > Mana Drain's cd's and drain numbers can be balanced to where someone can still cast spells No, they can't. Its either broken against heavy mana users, useless against champions without mana, or both. > Mana drain is super niche. And thats why its bad. > Also, look at dota. They have multiple heroes that drain mana and they do just fine from a balance perspective when played against correctly. 1. In dota, everyone has mana. Even jungle units and ranged minions have mana. 2. There is no champion designed around manadrain only. Closest to that is Anti-mage, and he has just 2 spells that interact with mana. Of them, only 1 actually drains mana, and manadrain value is flat, so it actually works better against low mana targets. 3. In dota, counterpicks matter much more than in lol. Its ok for them to have a champion that counters the whole class of champions by himself, its not ok for lol. > Imagine if this was a hp drain mechanic instead Everyone has hp. Not everyone has mana Everyone dies at 0 health. Not everyone is dead/useless at 0 mana This comparition is worthless
> Not worrying about mana in late is exactly the point of building mana. Imagine someone saying "junglers don't have to worry about jungle sustain in late game, lets change it". Mana is a dead stat. It gives nothing else but the ability to use spells. Its both the weakness(cant spam much early, regen is too slow) and strength(can spam late, regen is faster) of mana users. And Mana Drain is meant to counter that strength. Instead of dealing damage to make someone useless, they instead attack mana. If you build lots of defense so that you can be tanky then the enemy builds armor shred/pen. The only difference here is that Mana Drain is made for the specific purpose to attack targets in a different way. > No, they can't. Its either broken against heavy mana users, useless against champions without mana, or both. It's supposed to be useless against manaless champions. That's the point. And no it can be balanced. The numbers for late are literally 38.5% mana drain if you land everything, not even including aa's, in one rotation. The number of times I've been one banged by carries in 1 rotation is more than I can remember. If you got hit by everything and then you die afterward because of the mana execute then that's on you for not being able to outplay it. Plus, I can set thresholds that determine the power of the drain. Less than 1,300 mana and the drain is at half strength. Over that and it's full strength. Let me also put this caveat in here. I balance my concepts with the intent of controlling what items they are allowed to build. Like Smite, but to a greater degree. Mana Drain would not be allowed to build heavy defense and there's still scaling to be accounted for that forces them to build damage. That means Mana Drain is squishy. Don't like your mana being sapped? Kill them. > And thats why its bad. Because it's niche? Not really. League has only 22 manaless champions out of 145. You pick Mana Drain if you see the enemy team has all mana (which is more often than not) or more specifically if they have a heavy mana builder like Ryze. You don't pick them as first pick unless you wanted laning phase to be a nightmare. Do you pick Kassadin into literally any AD assassin? No. He gets destroyed. He has an anti-magic niche that aids his ability to kill mages. He has damage to fight ad champs as the game goes on, yes, but he might as well be another squishy in the eyes of an AD. Mana Drain is strong against high mana builders, decent against mana users that don't build mana, and terrible against manaless champs. There are some things you just don't play into and if it's bad to have counterpicks then why is this game competitive? And don't say that counterpicks are fine, but not heavy counter picks because there are plenty of heavy counterpicks in the game. > In dota, counterpicks matter much more than in lol. Its ok for them to have a champion that counters the whole class of champions by himself, its not ok for lol. I don't balance based on lol, I just use it for comparison when it makes sense and plan to point it out in comments because all my other concepts from some days ago have that blurb. I've played my fair share of mobas and I design based off of my own philosophy, aka a different style of moba. but don't act like for a second that counterpicks don't matter in lol. Every time I watch a pro game draft the casters are going on and on about counterpicks. See a Gnar, you can take Yasuo into him. See a Rakan, take Naut, Leona, or even Fiddlesticks into him. There is other macro to worry about, but counterpicks do matter in lol. If they didn't then why even have a draft phase with bans? > Everyone has hp. Not everyone has mana Everyone dies at 0 health. Not everyone is dead/useless at 0 mana This comparition is worthless No, it's not. I made the point clear that Mana Drain is not supposed to be able to deal with everyone. The weakness is plain as day. He deals with mana based targets, more preferably spellcasters. They are his target. Assassins don't go after tanks, they go after squishies. If someone picks him into a matchup where reducing the enemy's mana to zero is worthless than that's their fault. Mana is his personal win condition. It's how he kills. Just because hp has always been universal doesn't mean you can't have characters that attack specific stats or playstyles. The point of the comparison was that if this was hp drain then they would be effective against everyone and would have all the standard weaknesses that every single champion, hero, god and whatever share. Yay! I wanted a different condition to put an enemy out of a fight, one that allowed for even the most iron of players to be able to recognize the potential strengths and weaknesses. Niches are important. As a game progresses and as more mobas create new characters people will want something different, something that hasn't been done before. If you don't create characters that have alternate playstyles than you run into the issues of characters feeling the same. We can keep creating characters that attack hp because it makes intuitive sense or we can be more expansive and create niche characters that have their golden situations and their garbage situations. It is still on the player to use them well and counterplay is still possible. Outrange Mana Drain and avoid the telegraphed Q. Problem solved. This is not a problematic character.
: First of all, I personally don't really like death knights as a concept. They are a bit overused in games and everywhere they are basically the same. Now with that being said, I will focus on gameplay only. Passive-Looks ok. Can be op/useless depending on numbers Q-Kinda strange targeting. What if I don't want to pull a plagued enemy, but the other one nearby? W-What "heavy physical damage" actually means? Is Bleed strong enough to compensate doing less damage? Targeted CCs are usually quite op, but this one is melee and stuns the caster too, so its ok(can be compared to Udyr's E, another melee range targeted stun on a basic ability) E-Plague puts abilities on 1 sec cd on first tick only or on every tick? If its second, thats basically a silence for the whole duration, if its first, thats a silence for 1 sec(not complete silence since it doesn't work on ults) R-Not balanceable at all 1) The revive part should have really huge cd. Like 3+ mins. Its a free revive that also damages enemies and ends at full hp. Champions with revive abilities have their revives at huge cds and the revive itself can be stopped 2) Alive version of the ult is useless unless has 600+ range. He presses a button, enemies walk away, there's nothing he can do with that, he dies, revive is on shared cd. 3) Forcing a player to sacrifice himself is not really a good mechanic. He presses a button and afks for a minute, I wouldn't like to be in that situation.
Passive- Yeah. Q- It's like a blitz hook, but with a condition that you can guarantee it if you landed the E, but the E can be body blocked. It's situational. W- He himself doesn't deal enough damage in his kit to trigger it, but a teammate can. The bleed is stronger, but since it's a bleed it can be better defended against via shields. Yeah, it's like Singed flip. He has to be on top of you. E- It's one time only. Essentially a silence, but just not for ults. R- Fair enough. It would have a major cd in both cases. Also no revive ult can be stopped. Zilean ult needs to be triggered, but once it happens... And dota has a hero that revives to full hp every few minutes with no way to stop it. You really only use the alive version in situations where you combo with your team. If you don't have a team that can lock down the enemy for long enough, then you wouldn't do this. I personally would never make something that I wouldn't play, so the sacrifice part is fine by me so long as it can feel impactful. It's a heavy price to pay if you misuse it, but it's highly rewarding when done right. To each their own though. It would be fun to troll friends with the ult though. Hang on, gotta go pee. _Presses R_
: Sounds like Morde and Yorick but someone accidentally gave them Xerath ult.
If Xerath's ult made him lose his damn mind then yea. That brings a chuckle.
Rioter Comments
: Its not a good idea to make a champion useless against certain enemies. Its ok if you can counterplay this, not as ok but still passable if you can counterbuild this, but if you can just counterpick it to the point where 0 skills work against you, this is a bad design. Also, mana champions still fear the depletion of mana. Thats why they build mana items.
They build mana so they don't have to worry about mana late game. Of course they fear the depletion of it. When I play a mage in late game, mana is the last thing on my mind. The point of Mana Drain is to make that fear remain throughout the game. Also, you aren't keeping in mind that Mana Drain's cd's and drain numbers can be balanced to where someone can still cast spells. You counterplay them by avoiding the Q which is easily telegraphed as it always converges on Mana Drain, so if they want the most drain potential (which is only 36% in one rotation late game) they have to actually jump on you which makes them an easy target. Mana drain is super niche. They are designed to counter and to be countered. I put the numbers always change bit in the intro because the numbers aren't what's really important. It can be changed so that it's balanced. Also, look at dota. They have multiple heroes that drain mana and they do just fine from a balance perspective when played against correctly. It all depends on the type of game your playing. This mechanic isn't even that bad when you consider how quick fights can be. So what if you lost a quarter of your mana if you can burst down the one draining it. When you play the game well enough, this isn't a concern. If you go oom because you couldn't position correctly then that's on you. It's no different from getting half healthed because you mispositioned. Imagine if this was a hp drain mechanic instead. Now you die because you lost your health instead of dying because you couldn't cast a spell. It just seems bad because you went oom, but you're still alive.
Rioter Comments
: Champions with high mana pools are also likely to have more mana regeneration and restoration effects, making mana drains disproportionately affect many juggernauts, tanks, marksmen, and similar classes who usually focus on other stats. Your champion concept would deal more damage to a high-mana target, but a low-mana target would have trouble maintaining enough mana to cast spells.
Which is also the point. It's two of their core strengths. This makes them a high priority target. You treat them as you would any other carry. It's a different way of shutting down a champion. They just hit mana instead of hp. Mana regen isn't also all that high, so if Mana Drain sticks on someone for too long, even if they have high mana regen, the damage potential can still become a threat. Fair point though.
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: why wouldn't Riot try this? this is seems like a pretty realistic design for LoL, they won't take this EXACT design, no. But when was the last tank support tahm, who is now barely a support in 2015 nearly 5 yrs ago, we are due for another one and it could look like this
When I think about it, sure, but it would be toned down. Had to think about Bard,
: Klay, the Arcane Protector
This is honestly really cool (wish I thought of it). I like that he can completely screw things up for his own team if he missplays, but it's clear that a good Klay can keep his allies safe and make his enemies feel like fools. It's also good that he doesn't deal that much damage (that ult damage I'd say is too much considering the cc) as it justifies the protection he can provide. The e is also nice with its double dash. He's like Braum, but with a bit more freedom in his mobility. While people tend to bring up the "troll allies" argument, I think that these types of characters allow for good players to really shine (something only dota tends to attempt). Too bad Riot wouldn't ever dare try this. I'd buy the release skin if they did, even if the skin was garbage.
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: Best version of a glitchy champion I've seen. My only issue is that the passive has such a big effect but on a completely random trigger. You could go through an entire 2v1 constantly becoming invulnerable but at the same time you could have an entire teamfight without glitching once.
True, a better version would be a timer version or a trigger, but I only did it from a thematic perspective. It's possible to do a semi-random passive where every second that it doesn't go off, the chance increases that it does and then it resets on trigger. It could be a 35% chance that increases over time, but it's like a crit. It shouldn't be random, but whatever.
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: The issue i have with the pen items argument is that it really only works for ads. Tanks in one for all dont NEED synergy with their abilities. They just win, cause they are tanks. If you even consider playing a mage. Have fun doing anything against someone that is building mr. Ad's have it great where they have an array of versatile items for dealing with armor stacking or hp shred. For mages, unless your entire kit revolves around rylais and liandries.... you are shit outa luck. Void, and boots are never enough. MR is innately more powerful than armor, yet theres less pen items against it? Ads can auto attack while their abilities are on cooldown, but mages autos will barely leave a dent... Yet their abilities cant hit more against a tank than any form of adc, ad bruiser, or assassin? This is just further stressed in one for all. You get forced to play a mage? Too bad. The enemy team has a tank that has no real reason to play in one for all besides the fact that its a tank. Items should be limited at the very least
I will concede to this logic. Although full shred on an adc doesn't feel great to do unless you're like varus who outranges tanks.
ItsYaBoi (EUW)
: Yeah thanks! I know a ranged tank is odd and something that we haven't seen, but that's kind of why I liked the idea! Someone who could provide useful abilities for a team comp at a range and up close, who could also function just as well on their own - without being classed as a support. Thanks for your input and support, I really appreciate it!
ItsYaBoi (EUW)
: I've made some edits based on your comments! I like the new direction a bit more now I think! Thanks for your help!
Those changes work really well. The passive makes being near ranged allies feel better and with the w being engage with the q being the cone attack, you can hold your own. This build makes you a versatile tank/support. Good lock down, fair damage, an engage, some anti engage/disengage. It's a jack of all traits, but tanks should be able to engage as well as stop engage (it's just the nature of cc). This is way cooler. I still think a ranged tank is odd (being melee makes you want to stick to a target), but the kit holds up on its own and the ranged aspect makes your passive useful if you want to wait to use the w. I'm glad you took time to work at it and that you like where it went. Even if this might never be a thing, keep at it. It's really fun and rewarding to change things that don't work. I've done it more than I've wanted, but I'm glad that the concepts improve. Thanks for not being unreasonable!
: Riot's Patch Notes Parody
ItsYaBoi (EUW)
: Miandara, The Psyche
I really didn't want to say anything, but I can't stop myself. I see multiple things that just don't work. Ranged tanks don't work all that well. Their kits are better suited for melee where they can body block. A ranged tank can't defend as well as a melee tank. If the enemy adc has a {{item:3085}} and your right next to the allies that you're suppose to be protecting things go wrong fast and that's not even mentioning aoe mages. You have to be the wall between the enemy and your ranged allies. Shen counters this with his w, but this champ doesn't have anything like that. Being ranged also means your base stats have to be lower since you have safety in distance. I didn't see that the champ was a ranged tank until after I read the abilities, but when I read the abilities I got the vibe that other than the q and the passive the kit felt like a melee kit. Passive - For a long range artillery mage this would work very well, but not for a tank. Losing mana for a shield isn't bad, but the number is way to low too matter. I did rough estimates and the best shield your getting is from 400 to 500. This shield isn't good for two reasons. You have less resistances than most tanks because it took {{item:3027}} , {{item:3040}} , {{item:3025}} , {{item:3001}} , and {{item:3800}} . Your defensive stats aren't high enough to make the shield last very long. And you need that {{item:3800}} to get close to the enemy. I'll explain why later. That shield is gone before you even get into a good position and you have to blow seraphs right away so that you aren't shredded like butter. Q - The thing about a blitz hook is that it pulls that single target to the team and places them far from their defensive line. In Smite there is a tank with this very same ability. Your champ doesn't isolate the enemy and you have no mobility unlike Smite's tank. If the enemy tank blocks the spell, the back line suffers nothing. If you somehow do hit the back line, you're in the front lines and have negated your ranged stature, but like I mentioned with the passive you have no real resistances if you maximized your mana. Sure you have your W to perform that knockup, but you are also right next to the enemy tank and can get cc'd. Your q isn't stunning for very long and you aren't dealing damage to make it even worth being so far from your team. Pick potential is good against one or two enemies, but a full team fight and it becomes useless since you have no way to quickly reposition. W - I don't see how this ability is timing based. Sure in the midst of chaos it works well, but it's a cone, so it's bound to do well. However, your only lock down from a distance is your q which can be body blocked. To get the most out of it you have to flank which is a slow walk unless there's a ward for teleporting. It's otherwise useless if it doesn't travel fast enough so that it can't be outrun or if it's range is any shorter than 500 units which is the shortest adc auto attack range. Against melee it isn't all that effective as cone abilities can be sidestepped more easily when the enemy is in your face. This ability is basically an anti engage and possibly an anti disengage in the best of cases. E - Reflecting projectiles is a cool idea, but turning enemies and redirecting dashes is hard to pull off. In a game like league, turning an enemies position means nothing since players constantly click to reposition themselves and if the barrier constantly turns them away, it might as well be a wall. Turning an enemy dash around requires a fair amount of timing to pull off and you're not going to throw an enemy dashing away back into your team unless the fight was won without you and you could walk behind the enemy who probably would just flash past you or would dash some other way, the E not even being the real deterrent. This spell is just useful for redirecting projectiles, but that runs into a problem as well. You can't redirect a targeted attack. That's why Braum and Yasuo destroy the projectile. The lux q is bouncing away, but that kog'maw's autos are still going to reach the target. Ult - This is basically Galio's w combined with Alistar's Ult's dmg reduction. It's cool, but you have no way to reliably get close with your other spells. This is why I mentioned {{item:3800}}. Without that, or a sivir/kled ult, you aren't getting close enough to ult the enemy before dying. It's otherwise not bad and the dmg reduction is sorely needed since you put priority into the passive shield. The mana comes out to about 9-12 percent additional dmg reduction, so it's pretty bad without all that base reduction. You abilities also deal no damage to ever feel effective. IMO tanks shouldn't deal damage, but as things stand you kinda need damage to feel effective. What this brings to the table is brought by other champs and is executed better. Ori wants a ball carrier like malphite or zac to engage. Once that happens you aren't needed as follow up since the ball carrier normally has the cc for follow up. If there is an ori, you are probably a support as you'd get fucked in top with that weak damage meaning that you don't have the gold to build like a tank or a mage. You have to be mid to be gold efficient, but that means no Ori. You would work well with a Braum since he can knockup and slow the enemy, but he too needs some help to get a good position for his ult and his barrier makes your obsolete. To be honest, a Galio would work much better in mid than you would. He has engage and follow up plus can go top for an ori to be mid and then a braum could be bot with a j4 jungle. Replacing anyone with your champ makes things fall apart since you bring no damage and are only good for single target lock down without your ult. If you were the only tank, your team would have no engage or defensive line if you play to your kit's ideals. Other tanks just do it better and work more efficiently with other champs. At best you're only anti-engage and disengage meaning you really only work with siege comps and skirmish comps, both of which don't seem to be the intended team setup that you envisioned. You're good against assassins, but a good assassin waits for isolated enemies or enemies who already blew their spells. My advice would be a stronger passive ratio and a more range focused idea. Immobile tanks can exist, but as it stands your champ doesn't bring anything to the table with this kit. A body blocked psychic falls apart in theme and playstyle fast. If you altered the kit to be more about displacement (messing with enemy position) you could pull off a defensive support style that doesn't deal much damage but can allow for safe retreat or make it so enemies can't easily disengage when they already have some distance. If you still want to stick with the melee abilities, then you have to think about how a psychic would use their power to bring enemies to them. I love that you poured a lot into this concept. I love making concepts too and I think psychics can be really cool when done right. I hope you don't see this as rude because I want to see you pull off something even better. I just see too many weakness and a lack of uniqueness that keeps Miandara from being an effective and fun tank that players would like to play on the regular. Please don't hate me for this and just consider a rework to achieve your vision of a psychic tank.
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Morotikiasis

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