: Can A Rioter tell us what they think about Darius high ban rate and winrate and what they plan doing
I think a pretty good point was made about how melee champs are banned even though the win rate of ranged champs both ap and adc may have higher winrates and players simply not enjoying losing against melee champs. The last point of Vekkna "Ahri is strong, but she's never actually invincible. Psychologically that's a huge distinction. Ahri owns you and you think "I could have dodged that charm." Master Yi owns you and you think "there was nothing I could do."" The difference is yes you could not do anything once they are on top of you without your teamates but your positioning could have been better so that they could never have gotten on top of you in the first place, because unlike Ahri who can engage on you and kill you much more safely almost no matter what the positioning is players don't think about it the same way. They still think they had a chance when in reality there was never a chance for them.
: A melee carry is fine. What we have a problem with is a melee carry with 3000 health and 75 armor and magic resist that still deals enough damage to take out a squishy in seconds.
> [{quoted}](name=Coriandr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6TEasQsE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-04T14:23:55.742+0000) > > A melee carry is fine. > What we have a problem with is a melee carry with 3000 health and 75 armor and magic resist that still deals enough damage to take out a squishy in seconds. It's not a problem for a few reasons -The juggernauts may be able to carry and have decent tankiness but they have low mobility and don't put out as much damage as what you would define as a hyper melee carry. All of the juggernauts are slow and bumbling compared to some other champions that have invuln,stealth,untargetability,dashes. They need that tankiness. -Squishy's die in seconds to anyone with at least 1 damage item already they rely on their tools and team to keep them alive so they can build 80-100% damage oriented - Juggernauts rely on hard CC to carry , your team can't use a kite/peel strategy like is normally used for ranged ADC. -Juggernauts do not add any siege potential like some ranged ADC's, they require a team made for engaging. You need to play a comparable 'all in' team or a disengage team to go up against them. Split pushing is always still a strat as well.
: Why I absolutely hate this community: New MELEE CARY playstyles become viable? hurr durr ban + QQ.
It's Ironic because any Juggernaut that got reworked and wasn't good enough to get complained about on forums would instead be flamed for not being good enough. Reworks that don't make a champion a very competitive pick are wasted resources. I say grats mission accomplished and I'm excited to see how worlds play out
: I feel like Riot should make major changes to boots for Season 6
It would be a big change sure, but not huge. The change would only have to do with final build and games that went over 35-40 minutes when the most fed person has a full build with current item slots. Other than that every game would be exactly the same as it is now. The end result should actually be that there would be less 50 + minute games because the team in the lead would have more time to be in the lead. Most big changes always feel daunting or scary and then time goes by and you adjust and would one day talk about how in your day you remembered boots taking up one of your item slots. I'm not claiming it would be a positive change but it's something I would definitely like to see experimented with to find out.
: I feel like Riot should make major changes to boots for Season 6
I would like if there was a dedicated boot slot like a ward slot which opens up an extra item slot. I still remember my friend buying two boots because he thought he needed one for each foot, still makes me laugh. No more decision making on selling boots at full build.
: People who complain about the Juggernaut reworks
LOL, surprise! someone 4-5 levels higher with carry potential can kill your team if you keep engaging badly with little to no teamwork. I've seen lots of Yi's, Irelia's, Riven's, Yasuo's, Zed's, Tryndamere's, Kayle's, Vayne's, even Mundo's do this and not necessarily needing to be 4-5 levels ahead. Hell it took him quite a while to kill those guys considering how far ahead he was. People are just not used to seeing it done this way anymore. People have forgotten the days of a Mundo healing at low HP walking over your team when fed, they are only used to seeing penta kills from high damage carry's or duelists. Any ignite/grievous wounds or CC teamwork would have shut that down very quickly.
: The higher the player's elo, the bigger his mouth becomes.
I think it has much more to do with how long a player has been in league than what elo they are. When you've been around for a while you get tired of hearing or seeing the same bad (or what you consider bad) plays/advice/toxicity whatever. I know I've been playing since S1 with my other acct and I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut as much as I hate to admit it. The struggle is real
Miudmon (EUNE)
: For those of you complaining about darius
I am happy to see people complaining about some new champs. Not because I enjoy anyone's frustration but because I like to see that there are some different picks top lane that are giving players a tough time. Now when I get into games it's not just a complaint about a Teemo/riven/irelia/mao/Rumble matchup. There are new threats and thank god for that. The day I stop seeing complaints on the boards for a laner is the day you know they probably aren't a threat anymore.
Mongoose (NA)
: The issue with Darius is that his mana costs are so low
His mana costs are well balanced as they are, I would put them at the same level as Volibear. What you don't want is a champion like Malphite who is constantly oom even if you buy the mana items you are forced into building.
: Vote to mute
Guys you're taking this a bit too seriously
Rioter Comments
: malphite is stoned,
Malphite desperately needs mana costs lowered that's for damn sure.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sir Lebowski,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=EjYcwmNB,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-09-02T14:54:44.307+0000) > > I would be interested to know what items you both had. Fizz scales pretty hard into the late game and if he has his grievous wounds on him + ult Fizz should be able to take him. On the other hand fizz is supposed to be an assassin and assassins are supposed to be countered by tanky bruisers so even though I believe that Fizz will win a fight with proper play and scaling if it is just a straight up 1v1 brawl Voli should win the fight if everything is working as intended. If I was fizz and I was going to 1v1 Voli I would wait till he activated his ult and just troll poll away, come back after it wore off and take him on. Fizz is one of the better counters to him due to his grievous wounds and %hp dmg. For instance in lane if Fizz is able to trade with him forget it Fizz will win unless he runs out of mana. He can just use his W active and Q in, Auto once maybe twice and E out before getting bit, do that a couple time and then finish him off. Fizz no longer has Grievous wounds.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptnJakSparrow,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=EjYcwmNB,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-09-02T15:42:24.674+0000) > > Fizz no longer has Grievous wounds. Really? Sweet, ofc he's usually packing ignite anyway but he seemed strong enough without that in his kit and if he really needed it he could always buy it.
umbraˉ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Elo Thief,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=EjYcwmNB,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-02T15:02:57.974+0000) > > Zed too No. He is currently the 7th weakest champ and has been unviable since release.
> [{quoted}](name=Umbra Gemini,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=EjYcwmNB,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-09-02T15:04:18.738+0000) > > No. > > He is currently the 7th weakest champ and has been unviable since release. Which are you referring to Voli or Zed?
Alywan (EUNE)
: Volibear TOP/JUNGLE in 5.16
So it looks like the 550 range increase never went through?
spombjop (EUNE)
: He 1v1 me when i was fizz, i was full dmg, 2 levels ahead, he was full tank, 2 levels behind, we were both full hp and he 1v1 me with 2k dmg in few sec
> [{quoted}](name=spombjop,realm=EUNE,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=EjYcwmNB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-02T14:48:31.430+0000) > > He 1v1 me when i was fizz, i was full dmg, 2 levels ahead, he was full tank, 2 levels behind, we were both full hp and he 1v1 me with 2k dmg in few sec I would be interested to know what items you both had. Fizz scales pretty hard into the late game and if he has his grievous wounds on him + ult Fizz should be able to take him. On the other hand fizz is supposed to be an assassin and assassins are supposed to be countered by tanky bruisers so even though I believe that Fizz will win a fight with proper play and scaling if it is just a straight up 1v1 brawl Voli should win the fight if everything is working as intended. If I was fizz and I was going to 1v1 Voli I would wait till he activated his ult and just troll poll away, come back after it wore off and take him on. Fizz is one of the better counters to him due to his grievous wounds and %hp dmg. For instance in lane if Fizz is able to trade with him forget it Fizz will win unless he runs out of mana. He can just use his W active and Q in, Auto once maybe twice and E out before getting bit, do that a couple time and then finish him off.
: Volibear ( skin )
Egads cottontail? I wish they would make something far more menacing than what he currently has available. All his skins are fairly plain IMO just recolored bears with slight changes. Some would enjoy a comical skin I suppose but I was really hoping for something more along the lines of the new project skins or full metal. He's got the captain volibear which is fairly comical already, I want something that really shows off his armor and lightning more.
: Volibear is the most balanced champion in the game.
He's hurting a bit as all HP scalers are due to all the of the recent explosion of %HP damage introduced all over the place.
: It really bugs me that no Rioter has talked about Volibear
I think the primary reason I feel Volibear is close to being perfect right now is the fact that I play him in the jungle exclusively. Here his kit makes perfect sense. His E fear is amazing for jungling, he always builds HP so cinderhulk is perfect for him. His W bite can be used twice on large mobs and the attack speed is great. His Q is a great gap closer against laners when their is only so much CC one or two people can use to stop you and the toss + slow is almost always enough. The bite execute is plenty of damage to secure kills. Honestly as a jungler I feel he's very strong atm. His mana costs are one of the least restrictive in all of league, he doesn't need blue buff at all. What does he need help with? Well I'm not sure as a top laner I would have no idea how to balance it with his current kit. It works so great in the jungle I'm not sure how you could buff his laning without his jungle being too strong, except perhaps taking away the fear portion of the E in order to add some sustain for laning which could replace the fear for sustain in the jungle. Something akin to the bite giving HP if it kills a minion and more sustain if killing a large or epic monster. The issue with this is that it's very similar to NuNu's Q while also being an actual useful tool for fighting. With the change in items recently allowing many more choices with HP items he is in a good spot I feel like. The only issue is that if someone does build a grievous wounds item his passive becomes very lackluster and I think it needs a form of scaling where around lvl 11 or 16 he becomes immune to grievous wounds. Other than that the increase in ult bounce range to 550 and the change for more HP items went a long way and if anything I would like a visual update more than a gameplay update atm.
: Volibear needs a skin update/freshing up and possibly more skins.
I was just thinking this as I was returning to some volibear gameplay recently. His default splash art looks so great and I honestly think his default skin while needing some updates is his best looking skin. I would love to see a new one that really shows off his lightning some more when his ult is turned on.
: Next 3 Juggernaut Updates need to be Dr. Mundo, Volibear and Trundle
Honestly I really don't want a Voli rework. His ult bounce range could use an increase which I think was being tested for 5.16 but looks like it didn't make the cut, perhaps a change to his passive scaling where at lvl 16 it is no longer effected by healing debuffs. Seems like a decent buff since by lvl 16 burst should be enough counter play to his passive and his damage output is not as scary at that point. The guy has a strong early game he just needs a little something to help his late game I think. His mana costs are perfect the way they are, he never runs out of mana except in very extended trades. Malphite could use this kind of mana cost fixing honestly because Volibear is a gold standard for this I think.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Everybody is up in arms about the new true damage champs but they forget the worst abuser of it
%hp damage has always been more of a pain to me than true damage. It makes playing SION or Shen or any hp stacking champ feel backwards. They have buffed items that give HP and created more items that give HP while nerfing defensive stats so the true damage doesn't matter as much TBH.
: morde is now more polarizing and toxic than before
Meddler (NA)
: Initial Juggernaut Thoughts
I feel Garen is actually a little under-powered. He was easy to ignore as the game drew on, the new villain mechanic and increased later game damage is helping him out, but with recommended items in the jungle... he just doesn't work in there still. Garen is better for sure, I think some people are just upset that he is actually dangerous again. They will get used to having to take him seriously the same way they would treat a Riven. Riven doesn't need true damage for her ult to mess you up and she has far more mobility and some decent CC.
: I just played my first game as Top Mordekaiser and
I just had a blast playing him jungle. Goodness gracious the q power is so satisfying. The dragon is no big deal to me although it is extremely powerful for diving and killing towers early it will probably be removed later. Sorry to those who aren't a fan but I loved it and can't wait for more later today.
: They went through with it, THEY WENT THROUGH WITH IT.
Nah it doesn't require an allied champion at all. There are many melee champions that have poor mobility besides Mord. Mord has a very nice 200 range now and it's being underestimated by a lot of people. Do you know how many champs can be kited already, you think Mord is the only champion who suffers from being kited? It's a team game for a reason, unless you are one of the hyper carries you are going to need assistance. Some champions only role is to provide CC not kill, others primary roles are to kill and some of them have little to ZERO cc. Mord does a F TON of burst damage now which people are going to realize can be utilized very well. A lot of people are going to be eating their words, except for those who simply don't like the new playstyle. All of those people have every right to complain. To those that are complaining about balance and performance without him having been live (not PBE) for a month you don't have any ground to stand on. Just like I have no ground to stand on when I say he's useful but both you and I will continue to do it because we love each other amiright?
: They went through with it, THEY WENT THROUGH WITH IT.
Just played as the new Morde and as expected it was a blast. I played on my other account and have played Morde since he was released through is various changes. No one has enough experience with the new Mord to say nothing is fixed or he will have all the same problems or he sucks etc. What you can say for sure is that you don't like the changes because it's not as fun for you or that you really liked the old Mord but for me this is honestly one of the most exciting changes to happen in League for a long time. Played him in the jungle btw
: RIOT IS ACTUALLY LOOKING AT QUINN!!!
The Idea of her being able to come down within a decent radius after her ult is intriguing. It would be even better if her ult also applied an aoe slow on top of the damage. This along with untargettable while using E dash in human and bird form could really go a long way without changing her or buffing her damage. It would give her E some survivability if you could use it as a dodge mechanic like troll poll only a far shorter duration, it puts you in melee range anyway.
: Riot intentions for Quinn?
Well here we go, wouldn't you know that it turns out RIOT is actually looking at Quinn. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/L5Fueo03-riot-is-actually-looking-at-quinn http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pLqBpO0v-is-quinns-kit-or-her-thematic-design-really-conductive-to-an-adc-role and here we go Repertoir also mentioned that he is actively working on Quinn, particularly on her passive : "I am actually actively doing some work on Quinn. One of the things I want to address is that Harrier just seems like it screws me over when playing her sometimes. We're supposed to be a dynamic duo. Please mark more useful targets, Valor. Please stop taking your time to mark things, Valor. And Quinn, maybe people would take your attacks seriously if they felt like they were aiming to injure someone. That's my general attitude on Quinn, anyway. We're not at the point yet where I can discuss full details, but they're high up on my personal radar." In a different thread, he continued the Quinn discussion in response to a user's thought out post about her current state: "Hi Tygger7, thanks for the thoughts on Quinn. Quinn is a bit of an oddball, in that identifying what lane she belongs in isn't an easy task. However, being an adc and being played in a solo lane are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as we have seen from some other guys like Ezreal, Varus, and occasionally Corki being played in solo lanes. If the meta were ever to shift away from marksman in a duo lane, Quinn's value would probably be a lot higher, but that hasn't been the case for quite a long time, so it's hard to say with certainty if that's ever going to come back. It would probably be the safest thing for us to figure out what is unique and/or cool about Quinn and see how we can amplify that and make it something useful that teams care about having. If we could make "ranged carry that becomes melee carry" provide a different output that you wouldn't just get from another melee carry, then that would probably serve the character well. If we couldn't, we'd probably have to look to other facets of Quinn to emphasize as her cool and uniquely powerful thing(s)." Speaking of Quinn and Taric, Repertoir also noted: "I've mentioned it in some other threads, but I can leave it here as well :) I'm currently finishing up the Juggernauts release, as well as starting up some Quinn stuff and waiting for the Champion Update team to be ready to go into production on Taric in the next few months. I'll probably also have some Garen/Skarner follow-up to do in the next month or so. Aside from that, I'll have maybe one other main project to work on in the next few months, but I don't really know what it is yet. Meddler could probably speak better to larger scope stuff than individual projects, but as an individual contributor, that's about all for me for now :D" In the thread you'll notice that a lot of the same points I'm referencing are included there. So it seems RIOT does see some inequities in her ability to be an effective ADC and also the lane confusion some of us are having. Exciting stuff
: > "So when I say something to the effect of 'doesn't work' I'm talking about as an ADC and it's pretty obvious, when was the last time you saw Quinn win or even be picked as an ADC in any tournaments? Do you think that's because someone wasn't able to find out the right build? No it's because she lacks something inherently in her design that needs buffed for her to fill the role of ADC." sounds like you were talking about tournaments, otherwise why would you mention them? > Vayne is being used as an example because she has shorter range and high survivability. Are you aware that Vayne has standard 550 AA range? And Quinn and Vayne's 'tools' aren't even remotely similar. Apples and oranges my friend. This doesn't ring true as a discussion about Quinn's viability or anything concrete that would improve her core game-play, you aren't alone though most threads about champions are just like that and get just about as much attention. Whatever 'anger' you think I have is all on you who puts his own inflection on written words. Maybe you would just be more comfortable on an easier AA orientated champion. As I stated, I play Quinn as an ADC and i enjoy it, if i didn't find her viable as an ADC why would I Play her as one? The little deflective rant at the end of your last post doesn't mean much to me. That's usually the place people go when their opinions come under any amount of scrutiny.I voiced my opinion on Quinns current state and play-style, though I'm sure you didn't have time to read it since you were busy trying to pull "the better man" routine. We can just let this post sink down into obscurity with the rest of its kind, nothing will come of it anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=Tristyric,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-18T13:35:32.945+0000) > > sounds like you were talking about tournaments, otherwise why would you mention them? > > Are you aware that Vayne has standard 550 AA range? And Quinn and Vayne's 'tools' aren't even remotely similar. Apples and oranges my friend. > > This doesn't ring true as a discussion about Quinn's viability or anything concrete that would improve her core game-play, you aren't alone though most threads about champions are just like that and get just about as much attention. Whatever 'anger' you think I have is all on you who puts his own inflection on written words. Maybe you would just be more comfortable on an easier AA orientated champion. As I stated, I play Quinn as an ADC and i enjoy it, if i didn't find her viable as an ADC why would I Play her as one? The little deflective rant at the end of your last post doesn't mean much to me. That's usually the place people go when their opinions come under any amount of scrutiny.I voiced my opinion on Quinns current state and play-style, though I'm sure you didn't have time to read it since you were busy trying to pull "the better man" routine. > > We can just let this post sink down into obscurity with the rest of its kind, nothing will come of it anyway. Here is a list of attack ranges cait=650 ashe=600 varus=575 vayne, corki, draven, twitch, ezreal, trist, mf=550 graves, quinn=525 sivir, kog=500 urgot=450 Now 550 is indeed a standard attack range however if you notice Corki, Draven, Twitch, Ezreal, Trist, and MF all have abilites that reach beyond their attack range. Vayne and Quinn do not. In fact Every ADC has a longer range poke or attack other than Vayne and Quinn. This is a similarity between the two, so is the fact that they both have a dmg boost in a passive form of bonus damage, both of them have a movement speed chasing mechanic, both of them have a knockback/slow loaded into their E. They have quite a few similarities if you don't just throw everything out the window. The big difference is their ult where Vayne is compensated with great survivability tools and the fact that her E also grants much more survability than Quinn's E. This is where I think their needs to be some tweaking for her to be a truly good ADC. The fact that I'm not alone should tell you something, there are people interested in this. What is the point you are trying to make? I'm still trying to figure it out? You are the one who is veering way off topic. Do you know the intentions of RIOT regarding Quinn as an ADC? Do you think that Quinn should be a viable ADC? Do you think she is a viable ADC already?
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sir Lebowski,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T20:19:39.097+0000) > > I don't think I ever compared Quinn's ult to anyone elses as far as similarity goes my point was more that using Quinn's ult in a teamfight is practially suicide unless you have already sealed it and just need that execute which you already get in Vayne's case with her amazing chase potential. > > It sounds like you've waded through some posts about Quinn before but it also sounds like maybe you've become a bit deaf to input. I'm talking strictly about mechanics not builds here and my primary question really is if RIOT wants Quinn to be an ADC because if they do she is lacking and needs buffed. I'm not talking about her top lane/mid lane potential I'm focusing on her bot lane ADC potential and comparing her to Vayne because if she is indeed meant to be an ADC I believe she was slotted to compete with Vayne in a pick. We can compare her to any ADC if you like, ultimately her failing as an ADC is that she has to get in melee range for a few abilities and her ult is not meant for an ADC so it needs a passive component possible added for her human form to compete. Comparing her to Riven doesn't really help when we are talking ADC role here. > > So when I say something to the effect of 'doesn't work' I'm talking about as an ADC and it's pretty obvious, when was the last time you saw Quinn win or even be picked as an ADC in any tournaments? Do you think that's because someone wasn't able to find out the right build? No it's because she lacks something inherently in her design that needs buffed for her to fill the role of ADC. > > If RIOT does intend for her to be a top laner so be it but I've always thought she was meant to be an ADC So your comparing the mechanics of two different champions designed for different purposes(Tank killer vs a self-buff transformer), with different kits, different scaling, different utilization and expecting that to prove ones role inefficiency? Nope that sounds pretty whiny to me. Arguably they are both duelists but that doesn't mean they duel the same way. Even Quinn being a counter-pick to Vayne doesn't mean they are the similar types of ADC's. "Why can't X do what Y does? Rito please, its not fare!" And for the record I was talking about her as an ADC as well. Shes my go-to ADC and that's the lane where I enjoy her playstyle the most. Question still stand though, Is she really all that lacking and where? She's too squishy!{{item:3078}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3072}} . CC too Stronk! {{item:3172}} {{item:3139}}. I've played LoL a long time and I've done to know, while no option is ever perfect, their are always options. Focusing on what can't be mitigated by changes overall playstyle is what i feel is most important. Riot doesn't view a champions success by pro-play, not appearing in tournaments doesn't mean a thing. They could add every change you wish for tomorrow and she could still not see any tournament play, STILL wouldn't mean a thing. Does this mean she's perfect and can never benefit from changes? of course not. No champion is perfect. All have strengths and weaknesses, its part of the game. But since people don't discuss, builds, synergies, counter-plays and tactics, what real hard evidence can anyone produce that would prove changes to her abilities would increase her win rates more than a simple change in scaling and cool-downs? You can post your wishlist all day long and its not going to get anywhere. My thoughts on Quinn are simple, she's labeled wrong. Quinn's current kit resembles a secondary assassin as compared to a fighter. While her primary role is that of a AD-caster compared to an ADC(Varus, Graves, Lucian and a few others fit that bill too). Her Passive plays a huge role in her damage potential and she generally excels in short trades and can produce some immense burst damage when you front load her AA's (sheen/Shiv/Crit's + passive proc's). Valor can quite often outright annihilate a single target before they get a chance to respond. In team-fights that's exactly the role of an assassin but after that first assassinate things get weird. I find is that Valor excels with a whole different set of On-hit effects as compared to Quinn, mainly those that have synergy with attack speed, {{item:3153}} for example. One change I would like to see is the retention of the passive while Valor is tagged in at the cost of some of its damage during his ult time, perhaps Valor procs Harrier at 50% of the passive regular damage, producing smaller bursts but retaining the passive speed from W. This would sort of stabilize Quinn instead of changing her from melee Assassin to AD-caster and back again every time you press R.
> [{quoted}](name=Tristyric,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T21:53:43.669+0000) > > So your comparing the mechanics of two different champions designed for different purposes(Tank killer vs a self-buff transformer), with different kits, different scaling, different utilization and expecting that to prove ones role inefficiency? Nope that sounds pretty whiny to me. Arguably they are both duelists but that doesn't mean they duel the same way. Even Quinn being a counter-pick to Vayne doesn't mean they are the similar types of ADC's. "Why can't X do what Y does? Rito please, its not fare!" And for the record I was talking about her as an ADC as well. Shes my go-to ADC and that's the lane where I enjoy her playstyle the most. Question still stand though, Is she really all that lacking and where? She's too squishy!{{item:3078}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3072}} . CC too Stronk! {{item:3172}} {{item:3139}}. I've played LoL a long time and I've done to know, while no option is ever perfect, their are always options. Focusing on what can't be mitigated by changes overall playstyle is what i feel is most important. > > Riot doesn't view a champions success by pro-play, not appearing in tournaments doesn't mean a thing. They could add every change you wish for tomorrow and she could still not see any tournament play, STILL wouldn't mean a thing. Does this mean she's perfect and can never benefit from changes? of course not. No champion is perfect. All have strengths and weaknesses, its part of the game. But since people don't discuss, builds, synergies, counter-plays and tactics, what real hard evidence can anyone produce that would prove changes to her abilities would increase her win rates more than a simple change in scaling and cool-downs? You can post your wishlist all day long and its not going to get anywhere. > > My thoughts on Quinn are simple, she's labeled wrong. Quinn's current kit resembles a secondary assassin as compared to a fighter. While her primary role is that of a AD-caster compared to an ADC(Varus, Graves, Lucian and a few others fit that bill too). Her Passive plays a huge role in her damage potential and she generally excels in short trades and can produce some immense burst damage when you front load her AA's (sheen/Shiv/Crit's + passive proc's). Valor can quite often outright annihilate a single target before they get a chance to respond. In team-fights that's exactly the role of an assassin but after that first assassinate things get weird. I find is that Valor excels with a whole different set of On-hit effects as compared to Quinn, mainly those that have synergy with attack speed, {{item:3153}} for example. One change I would like to see is the retention of the passive while Valor is tagged in at the cost of some of its damage during his ult time, perhaps Valor procs Harrier at 50% of the passive regular damage, producing smaller bursts but retaining the passive speed from W. This would sort of stabilize Quinn instead of changing her from melee Assassin to AD-caster and back again every time you press R. I'm not sure where all your anger is coming from but I'll try to explain you again. This is posing a question as to if Quinn is supposed to be able to fill the role of ADC. You keep pointing out that she is closer to another kit than an ADC and we completely agree with each other there that's why I am trying to figure out if _**RIOT**_ intends her able to fill the role of ADC _**HENCE THE TITLE OF THE THREAD**_. After that yes I am comparing her to Vayne, I could just as easily compare her to other ADC's although I wouldn't compare her to other ADC's that have long range because she has a shorter range auto attack. The issue Quinn is her lack of suvivability in 5 man teamfights in order to fill the role of ADC. Vayne is being used as an example because she has shorter range and high survivability. Quinn has some similar tools that could be modified without being the same and it would go a long way to making her ADC viable. You could compare her to Draven just as well. Quinn's E which serves as her primary disengage and CC puts her in too much danger both in human form and bird form for her to be a successful ADC teamfighter in competitive play. Now you also point out that RIOT doesn't balance around tournaments etc. I am not talking about tournaments. I am talking about premade teams that don't even have to be that high of a skill level, they just have to be coordinated enough to land a CC on Quinn when she gets into melee range which she will inevitably do since two of her abilities put her in melee range. She is not slippery enough to be a great team fighter but she is not far off if they make some small adjustments. If you don't feel she should be made ADC viable I'm not arguing with you about that. I understand if RIOT doesn't intend for her to be an ADC, but I do think she is meant to be a viable ADC. This doesn't have to do with pro-play. How many times have you seen Quinn played as the ADC of a team period. normal queue or ranked? She needs some changes to fit the bill of ADC if she is supposed to be able to fill that role. If you don't think she should be an ADC that's all you need to say. No need to get all defensive or attack I understand that point of view just fine and have no problem with it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sir Lebowski,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T18:57:50.109+0000) > > That's what I'm saying about Quinn's ult, it's not really useful for teamfights. When I ult as Vayne I get Quinn's passive damage on every shot pretty much on top of silver bolts, 3 stealths, and triple passive movement speed. Meanwhile if I ult as Quinn in a teamfight i am pretty much useless. In fact you want to avoid using your ult at all costs unless the fight is over and you're chasing or running away. Vayne's ult is just far superior along with her regular kit being superior. Quinn's ult is much more similar to Riven than it is anyone else's. The champion enters an empowered/altered state, adding bonuses to there basic stats or modifying their abilities and giving them a missing health Execute to be used some time during the duration of the ult. It lacks a bit in power compared to Riven's ult but that seems intentional to me. People 'think' Quinn is weak however she isn't. Quinn is very strong to a point where a very minor tweak in the wrong direction will turn her into a complete monster. Quinn has a few minor issues otherwise(mostly the buggy sort) but almost every time one of these threads pops up its always about comparing apples to oranges and generally it will lead to nothing. There's no discussion of builds, tactics strategies or synergies. Its just "Quinn doesn't work like ____because _____" followed by a ranting text wall(its not just this OP I'm talking about by far). Is someone really a 'main' when they know their champion by only one build, a build you got from some pro-guide without even taking a moment to analyze their champions abilities and their own play-style? I'd answer no. To that end can you really say something 'doesn't work' when you haven't tried all the options provided to you? I feel it isn't fair to analyze a champion based on another champion, it doesn't provide anything a Dev can really work with and doesn't lead to any good discussion about the champion in general. Vayne is not Archetypal nor is Quinn her "Ryu clone".
> [{quoted}](name=Tristyric,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T19:35:22.621+0000) > > Quinn's ult is much more similar to Riven than it is anyone else's. The champion enters an empowered/altered state, adding bonuses to there basic stats or modifying their abilities and giving them a missing health Execute to be used some time during the duration of the ult. It lacks a bit in power compared to Riven's ult but that seems intentional to me. People 'think' Quinn is weak however she isn't. Quinn is very strong to a point where a very minor tweak in the wrong direction will turn her into a complete monster. > > Quinn has a few minor issues otherwise(mostly the buggy sort) but almost every time one of these threads pops up its always about comparing apples to oranges and generally it will lead to nothing. There's no discussion of builds, tactics strategies or synergies. Its just "Quinn doesn't work like ____because _____" followed by a ranting text wall(its not just this OP I'm talking about by far). Is someone really a 'main' when they know their champion by only one build, a build you got from some pro-guide without even taking a moment to analyze their champions abilities and their own play-style? I'd answer no. To that end can you really say something 'doesn't work' when you haven't tried all the options provided to you? I feel it isn't fair to analyze a champion based on another champion, it doesn't provide anything a Dev can really work with and doesn't lead to any good discussion about the champion in general. Vayne is not Archetypal nor is Quinn her "Ryu clone". I don't think I ever compared Quinn's ult to anyone elses as far as similarity goes my point was more that using Quinn's ult in a teamfight is practially suicide unless you have already sealed it and just need that execute which you already get in Vayne's case with her amazing chase potential. It sounds like you've waded through some posts about Quinn before but it also sounds like maybe you've become a bit deaf to input. I'm talking strictly about mechanics not builds here and my primary question really is if RIOT wants Quinn to be an ADC because if they do she is lacking and needs buffed. I'm not talking about her top lane/mid lane potential i'm focusing on her bot lane ADC potential and comparing her to Vayne because if she is indeed meant to be an ADC I believe she was slotted to compete with Vayne in a pick. We can compare her to any ADC if you like, ultimately her failing as an ADC is that she has to get in melee range for a few abilities and her ult is not meant for an ADC so it needs a passive component possible added for her human form to compete. Comparing her to Riven doesn't really help when we are talking ADC role here. So when I say something to the effect of 'doesn't work' I'm talking about as an ADC and it's pretty obvious, when was the last time you saw Quinn win or even be picked as an ADC in any tournaments? Do you think that's because someone wasn't able to find out the right build? No it's because she lacks something inherently in her design that needs buffed for her to fill the role of ADC. If RIOT does intend for her to be a top laner so be it but I've always thought she was meant to be an ADC
: I love Quinn myself and I feel the same way. I never really compared her to Vayne but it makes sense. I really only play her top but I could probably do the same thing with some other ADC's. TBH Quinn doesn't have a super strong solo phase top compared to some other lane bullies and playing her bot just feels like you're building up to NOT carry. At least not the way you would with other ADC's. It can be fun if your team is ahead but against a team that can play her ult is fairly useless if you're supposed to carry.
> [{quoted}](name=SirCumference,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y3tyI30s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-17T16:42:08.054+0000) > > I love Quinn myself and I feel the same way. I never really compared her to Vayne but it makes sense. I really only play her top but I could probably do the same thing with some other ADC's. TBH Quinn doesn't have a super strong solo phase top compared to some other lane bullies and playing her bot just feels like you're building up to NOT carry. At least not the way you would with other ADC's. It can be fun if your team is ahead but against a team that can play her ult is fairly useless if you're supposed to carry. That's what I'm saying about Quinn's ult, it's not really useful for teamfights. When I ult as Vayne I get Quinn's passive damage on every shot pretty much on top of silver bolts, 3 stealths, and triple passive movement speed. Meanwhile if I ult as Quinn in a teamfight i am pretty much useless. In fact you want to avoid using your ult at all costs unless the fight is over and you're chasing or running away. Vayne's ult is just far superior along with her regular kit being superior.
: The Mordekaiser rework got me thinking. (Teemo Related)
Teemo is already a very strong jungler, at least in solo Queue. His blind makes him very jungle viable and he is a terror with red buff. He also has extreme carry potential with runaans. He actually has a stronger on hit build than anyone else in the game because of his toxic darts which have very high base damage and very high scaling. It put's kaylee's on hit to shame. Of course Kaylee has her ult to help out but with some clever positioning and shroomage you can do wonders carrying with Teemo in solo queue.
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Agidyne (EUW)
: Please, if you really want to rework Darius and Garen, don't f*cking ruin them.
Garen.... oh Garen How I love to love you Unfortunately I know you're basically a worse version of Rumble.... far worse Rumble performs the same duties as you yet is so much more effective. His aoe dmg is far superior, his tankiness scales with his dmg, he has multiple forms of CC without items. Garen is a bit stronger early but quickly gets outgunned, and in teamfights he just doesn't compare. Please give Garen something to separate him more from rumble than the slight differences they have right now or buff him to be more competetive, because again he's basically a worse version of Rumble, and I really like Garen 100x more than Rumble. Garen used to be feared in the bush, now he's not really feared that much at all except by a couple top laners.
IVVVI (NA)
: So I just wanted to point out, the annie is quite ahead of the ezreal, being level 9 poke mage vs level 11 burst mage (most likely with an item advantage aswell) this is to be expected, and happens with more champions than just annie. And Annie is immobile, notice she has to blow flash even when shes so far ahead, to secure the kill. Her mobility isn't even her only weak point, but you get the idea.
I see your point is about how her ult hitting him after his port but like some others have said it's not because it's Annie, other abilities from other champions will do the same thing. That combined with the enormous lead Annie had over a half health squishy and any mage burst or not burst would kill him in 2 spells, some in only 1.
MikePeck (NA)
: DROP EVERYTHING AND PANIC, THEY'RE BUFFING TEEMO!!!!!
This is a huge nerf. What is the point of throwing shrooms at you opponents if they have an extra half second arm time. For those of you who don't play teemo much the arm time is already too long to use in a fight against anyone mobile and now even slowed people may be able to dodge it. Not to mention Half the duration on shrooms. That's 5 whole freaking minutes off the duration. Do you have any idea how long 5 minutes is in that game. I'll tell you right now this is crop for him. Seriously they also nerfed his early game stealth which Is what the fing guy Is about.... his early fing game. Moving around in brush stealth? That is supposed to be some compensation? So you can move 2 inches in the brush? Overall this looks like a big nerf to his versatility and max potential. This change will not be the end because it is fairly cap and it will be apparent to people who main teemo.
gaby1best (EUNE)
: >How many have TWO. AOE. HARD. CC {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:143}} Notice anything weird? Most of them are tanks or utility-mages. Riven is the only AD(full AD) bruiser with 2 hard cc abilities. Add 4 dashes to that. Mobility + hard CC is wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=gaby1best,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RQivlR7,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2015-07-16T12:24:41.525+0000) > > {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:143}} > > Notice anything weird? Most of them are tanks or utility-mages. Riven is the only AD(full AD) bruiser with 2 hard cc abilities. Add 4 dashes to that. Mobility + hard CC is wrong. What I notice here is how many incorrect champs you have listed. The following champions you listed only have 1 aoe hard cc Rammus Amumu Braum Janna Morgana Lissandra Leona Thresh Vi Not only that but you even listed some with 0 AOE hard cc Fiddle Blitz It amazes me the reading comprehension of some people. we aren't talking about two hard CC abilites we are talking about two AOE hard cc abilities.
: Evelynn nerfs do not make much sense.
People who are claiming that it's impossible to balance around stealth are wrong She is balanced around stealth by the fact that she has no initiation or CC aside from her ult. Her initation IS her stealth. She needs to get that close in order to do damage and without her stealth she would need to be given something else. Trying to rush in with W will not work. You would know that if you play eve much. Where she really shines is when there is say a top lane nassus who can put his massive slow on the opponent and then as Eve you can walk in and wreck him. If you find yourself camped by eve put down a pink ward instead of a green ward and have your jungler gank the opponent when they try and kill it. Anyway I can't say how much these nerfs are going to effect her. Ultimately I do build her with devourer and always have. I tend to follow it up with trinity but it will be frozen gauntlet some games. Will have to wait and see after this goes into effect I guess. I'm always hoping that none of the champions I like ever get played in the pro scene because it's pretty much a nerf sentence.
hitborn (NA)
: BoxBox assumes anyone banning Riven is ghosting him
If you notice in this vdeo by boxbox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-UjJOzBno4 He talks briefly about how the blind effects Riven around 4 minutes in. That Teemo overall seemed to be playing Teemo very weak in the laning phase and he still came out doing ok but he really didn't take advantage of his lead whenever he got one and even boxbox was a little confused why he kept letting him farm. And in here again he mentions that Teemo pretty much wins every 1v1 in lane. HIs weakness is that he can't get out of ganks very well because he has no CC to stop the ganks except when he get's is shrooms. This is again where a good Teemo is separated from bad ones. Superior warding and map awareness, after lvling 6 shroom usage becomes very important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcXZqlKaqUA In any case Teemo's "kit" counters rivens "kit". The skill of the players/junglers will ultimately determine who wins the lane.
: I main Riven and I've literally never had trouble with Teemo. The worst I've ever done is not being able to kill him because he stayed under his tower and wouldn't even cs.
> [{quoted}](name=Ghos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96t4iz2c,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-15T03:08:58.329+0000) > > I main Riven and I've literally never had trouble with Teemo. > > The worst I've ever done is not being able to kill him because he stayed under his tower and wouldn't even cs. I believe you, but that doesn't mean that Teemo doesn't have a kit that actually does the opposite of what you are saying. Teemo's kit craps on Riven. Pupel actually said it pretty well. Teemo has high mobility, unless he's out of position you will definitely need all 4 dashes to get to him and then you're blinded and can't do any damage to him if you're even still in range. Just like Pupel said now you're screwed because you have no choice but to back off and since Teemo is quick he's going to poison the crap out of you and most likely kill you unless you're full HP. No pretty much your only chance of killing Teemo is to catch him with a flash dash which can work if his flash is down and he's not ahead of you already because he counters you in lane. That or have your jungler assist which he can also have his assist. This is not taking into consideration his shrooms at lvl 6 which you will be running into while you attempting to reach him and again should be hitting the one he places at his feet when you get to him which will slow your escape even further and pretty much gaurantee your death. Now as for why you don't have much problems with him the answer is pretty simple. Most Teemo players aren't good at Teemo and he's squishy so if they don't do what was said and avoid Riven's damage they certainly will die. Also if they aren't smart enough to know when Riven is out of gas to chase after you like the devil he is they are not using their counter card because that is what they have to do. That is where they dominate riven. A good Riven player... if they know they are playing against a good Teemo player, will only use half their abilities to farm creeps and use the other half to escape because they will know they can't kill Teemo unless they have close to even farm and his flash is down while theirs is up or if they have jungler/mid assistance.
: Evelynn nerfs do not make much sense.
This is rather dissapointing. Those number shifts are rather large.
Tmoose (NA)
: I am so done with the lore team
The lore team? More like the one guy scribbling on his lunch break.
: How will sated devourer interact with periodic on hit effects
That makes total sense.... except If you build a runaans hurricane you can test out at least some of these things and you will find out that some of these are considered on hit effects because they work with runaans. For example TF's E passive applies to all targets with Runaans but it only procs every few attacks I can grasp that some of these are probably easily identifiable as consumable like A Nassus Q, I wouldn't even consider that on hit if I thought about it but since TF's proc's with Runaans, how would it work with a sated devourer?
: How will sated devourer interact with periodic on hit effects
Still seems shady, I mean there are plenty more DIanna Gnar Jayce Jax Jarvan Yi Kha'Zix Lulu Lux Nautilus Quinn Skarner Twisted fate Thresh Vayne Viktor Xerath Ziggs Sure most of these will never have any relevance but it seems that the responses in this thread are just as confused as I am judging by their answers. The only one so far that I agree with partly is "The "On-Hit" effect is only doubled if they apply to all auto attacks." This is most likely how it is coded to work but with all the possible interactions I'm looking for some kind of solid confirmation
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Mr Sir Lebowski

Level 30 (NA)
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