Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-23T17:07:20.145+0000) > > Some champion types are more effective against other champion types, but you should still be able to have response options available to you at all times. When I am an adc versus Rengar, I die the moment he jumps out of his ultimate, which I couldn't see him in to begin with. This has no reasonable counter play. Him doing that to you *IS* the counterplay to you being an adc. *YOU* are not meant to have any good way to prevent that. Your support, however, could. The game begins in draft, not on the rift. You pick squishy adc with little cc/escape. Enemy picks Rengar to counter you. You are not meant to be able to negate this draft strategic win. Your support could pick something that can. A champion that can get Rengar off you, or stop him from killing you. Also vision and map awareness.
> [{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T17:18:46.146+0000) > > Him doing that to you *IS* the counterplay to you being an adc. > *YOU* are not meant to have any good way to prevent that. > Your support, however, could. > > The game begins in draft, not on the rift. > You pick squishy adc with little cc/escape. > Enemy picks Rengar to counter you. You are not meant to be able to negate this draft strategic win. > Your support could pick something that can. A champion that can get Rengar off you, or stop him from killing you. > Also vision and map awareness. So in your eyes League should be less about strategy and mechanics on the rift, and more about strategy in champion select? You basically want League of Legends to be like rock, paper, scissors.
: Unhappy with the game/balance team ruining the game
They over-buff the flashy champions, who tend to be popular. Irelia requires harder nerfs, because her ceiling effectiveness is too high. She only has a low win rate because people don't use her at said ceiling effectiveness since she is a decently high skill cap champion.
Teh Song (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T05:27:14.560+0000) > > What if I am an adc? You aren't supposed to counter Rengar as an adc. Rengar is supposed to counter you. You aren't supposed to be able to counter your counters. If you could, there wouldn't be any counters.
> [{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-23T06:16:27.965+0000) > > You aren't supposed to counter Rengar as an adc. > Rengar is supposed to counter you. > You aren't supposed to be able to counter your counters. > If you could, there wouldn't be any counters. Some champion types are more effective against other champion types, but you should still be able to have response options available to you at all times. When I am an adc versus Rengar, I die the moment he jumps out of his ultimate, which I couldn't see him in to begin with. This has no reasonable counter play.
Kuponya (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T05:27:14.560+0000) > > There is counter play to range... where is this argument coming from? Melee champions tend to be more powerful than ranged champions in melee. CC, dashes, and certain items exist to close ranged gaps, allowing melee champions to make use of their close-quarters combat advantage over ranged champions. What are you talking about? You claim there is counter "play" to range but then you bring in "kits" as if every kit has the same tools. By that logic, you can use your kit to counter Rengar too. Melee are also not proven to be more powerful than ranged champions in melee range either, they are generally given more base stats but at melee range, it is nearly impossible for champions - ranged included - to miss skill shots. If a melee champion is truly melee, they have no way to close a gap by only relying on "plays" P.S. You can just drop down a control ward, Rengar has camo, not invis.
> [{quoted}](name=Kuponya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T05:35:40.906+0000) > > Melee are also not proven to be more powerful than ranged champions in melee range either, they are generally given more base stats but at melee range, it is nearly impossible for champions - ranged included - to miss skill shots. > > If a melee champion is truly melee, they have no way to close a gap by only relying on "plays" I mean your entire argument that range has no counter play is just based on the pretense that ranged champions are equally as strong in melee range as melee champions, and that melee champions by definition have no dashes, which is clearly not true. Most people would consider Renekton and Yasuo to be melee champions, lol. If you're wrong, just admit you're wrong; lying like this to win in argument is so petty.
: Stop complaining about balance changes
So I guess you don't understand what "balance" means.
: The Sylas Problem
Sylas was a stupid money grab. He is supposed to be an appealing champion because he has a new-age ability, namely his ultimate. His ultimate looks cool at a first glance, but when you realize how many recondite interactions it has with other champions, you realize that Riot has inadvertently made every game involving Sylas much more complicated, which I think most people would argue is anti-fun.
Zyniya (NA)
: Just make everyone on your team buy a sweeper? LUL
> [{quoted}](name=Zyniya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-23T05:28:27.146+0000) > > Just make everyone on your team buy a sweeper? LUL I don't see how some people can make such short-sighted remarks, but then state them so smuggly at the same time. If you're being ganked by Twitch, or Shaco, or Evelyn, you're generally not going to be suspecting it, and won't have a reason to pop the sweeper in the first place.
Kuponya (NA)
: There doesn't need to be counter play to every single concept in the game, otherwise they'd have to address the most prominent one: range. The proper method to deal with Rengar is to build some armor and HP.
> [{quoted}](name=Kuponya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1JZ6LRnE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-23T05:25:06.618+0000) > > There doesn't need to be counter play to every single concept in the game, otherwise they'd have to address the most prominent one: range. There is counter play to range... where is this argument coming from? Melee champions tend to be more powerful than ranged champions in melee. CC, dashes, and certain items exist to close ranged gaps, allowing melee champions to make use of their close-quarters combat advantage over ranged champions. What are you talking about? Also, there does need to be counter play to everything if you want this game to be a skill-based as possible, which I'd argue it should be. If an ability has no counter play, you cannot use your skill to outplay it. > The proper method to deal with Rengar is to build some armor and HP. What if I am an adc?
Rioter Comments
coreym11 (NA)
: If Irrelia has a 45% winrate, does that mean she needs to be buffed?
You need to balance champions based on what their ceiling effectiveness is. High-skill cap champions with a high play rate like Irelia tend to not carry win rates that are indicative of how strong they are, because generally speaking, they're not played at their ceiling level of effectiveness. The fact of the matter is, that when Irelia is played at the highest level, she is overpowered. That would explain why her win rate in solo queue is low, but she remains a highly contested top and mid lane pick in competitive play. So to answer your question, no. Irelia does not need a buff, and neither does Akali who is in a similar spot.
: Dont. Buff. Pyke.
The fact that, as it stands, this is a contentious post is just beyond me.
: > [{quoted}](name=AMADEUSdotEXE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X6umxvQp,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-21T05:11:51.657+0000) > Unfortunately for me I had my day with Irelia, Azir, Sylas , Akali, Zoe, and Yuumi (REALLY bad luck on my end.) This isn't a matter of bad luck really. You played the champions everyone else played because they were op, which made them fun to play as, and awful to play against.
> [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X6umxvQp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-21T05:13:35.100+0000) > > This isn't a matter of bad luck really. You played the champions everyone else played because they were op, which made them fun to play as, and awful to play against.
: A question for One Tricks/Mains...
> [{quoted}](name=AMADEUSdotEXE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X6umxvQp,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-21T05:11:51.657+0000) > Unfortunately for me I had my day with Irelia, Azir, Sylas , Akali, Zoe, and Yuumi (REALLY bad luck on my end.) This isn't a matter of bad luck really. You played the champions everyone else played because they were op, which made them fun to play as, and awful to play against.
: no one wants the game to be fixed. I know this to be true now and it honestly makes me sick. those who do are what, 10% minority at best, never gonna be heard anyway. the rest want it to be fair under the current guise which is just literally impossible, the window of viability is too small but people don't realise it. just utterly jaded with the community far more than the game itself.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-21T04:13:42.113+0000) > > no one wants the game to be fixed. > I know this to be true now and it honestly makes me sick. > those who do are what, 10% minority at best, never gonna be heard anyway. > the rest want it to be fair under the current guise which is just literally impossible, the window of viability is too small but people don't realise it. > just utterly jaded with the community far more than the game itself. Couldn't agree more.
: I strongly disagree with your perception of the game. The majority of the games I play are won by the team who has a tank and the best frontline. I would say I win 70% of the time when I go against an all damage comp vs 30% when I'm playing on an all damage comp vs a team with tanks. The game has been dominated lately by tanky champions who sustain through any damage you try to put on them and can 1v3 your damage dealers.
> [{quoted}](name=OneMustFall,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-21T04:44:16.463+0000) > > I strongly disagree with your perception of the game. The majority of the games I play are won by the team who has a tank and the best frontline. XD, please don't lie to yourself
: No. No really, the game is stupid.
Yup, damage creep is r%%%%%ed, but it isn't even the biggest issue in this heap of garbage we call League of Legends. Good post overall, but I thought that the bit about thronmail was bit superfluous. Like, the first section made the point well enough.
: Nerf Kai'sa
: > [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IhTaTcZE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-20T03:58:40.249+0000) > > The game has never been less fun to play. With all the handicaps (i.e shutdown xp and gold), and the prevelance of broken champions and stupid mechanics like invisibility that have no counter play, this game has become utterly unplayable. I think the shutdown mechanics right now are super boring, as being ahead forces you to be extremely cautious, as getting 3 kills and dying for it isnt even worth if you have a high shutdown. (Gets even worse when you factor in that the enemy team might give reduced kill gold, considering they are behind) However, which invisibility mechanics have no counterplay? There are a lot of true sight abilities in the game, control wards vs stealth and sweeper also always works. So not sure where the "no counter play" part is.
> [{quoted}](name=Unseen Threąt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IhTaTcZE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-20T06:33:05.272+0000) > > I think the shutdown mechanics right now are super boring, as being ahead forces you to be extremely cautious, as getting 3 kills and dying for it isnt even worth if you have a high shutdown. (Gets even worse when you factor in that the enemy team might give reduced kill gold, considering they are behind) > > However, which invisibility mechanics have no counterplay? There are a lot of true sight abilities in the game, control wards vs stealth and sweeper also always works. So not sure where the "no counter play" part is. I'd argue that dropping a pink ward near the adc when rengar ults will only reveal him once he is in jump range anyways, in which case he is still basically killing her from invis.
: So at what point is Renekton getting a nerf?
It is simply not true to say that Renekton has no outplay potential. Renekton soft counters a lot of match ups. I constantly destroy him with Tryndamere and Jax because I main him and know when he is vulnerable, and for how long.
: Way to ruin Kench completely
They need to figure out what to do with Kench. Meanwhile, keep him nerfed into the dirt, because clearly they can't balance him.
Proxy345 (NA)
: Riot could change the name of this game to League of AFKs
BUT DID THEY SAY SOMETHING TOXIC IN THE CHAT!? BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY BAN WORTHY THING IN EXISTENCE AS YOU KNOW! #RIOTLOGIC
: Wtf is this Renekton buff
Everything in this post, was just like... wow.... you took the words and thoughts directly from out of my mouth.
: This ahri buff was so fucking unnecessary lol
LOL. SHE HAS NEVER NOT HAD A 53% WIN RATE OR ABOVE, AND YET THEY CONTINUE TO BUFF HER! LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Dude, just fire the balance team in my opinion. The game is in the worst state it has ever been in.
: > [{quoted}](name=5or6stores,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=000100010002,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:10:42.733+0000) > > Tryndamere warrants always losing to tahm because trynda is a melee statcheck with no outplay potential. A binary champ is going to have binary matchups. Nonsense, I outplay with Tryndamere all the time. Granted, I build him AP and run him as a support, but.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=0001000100020002,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:50:39.242+0000) > > Nonsense, I outplay with Tryndamere all the time. Granted, I build him AP and run him as a support, but. I see, so that's why I have been losing this entire time.
Barkley (NA)
: I'm seriously glad TFT is a thing
You're not alone. This is the absolute worst state the game has aver been in.
Eedat (NA)
: Please see step 2. Hashinshin has been bitching about Riven for the past 5 years straight. Just by sheer rule of averages he had to be correct a few times
> [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vnk7Kwkk,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-20T00:55:16.092+0000) > > Please see step 2. > > Hashinshin has been bitching about Riven for the past 5 years straight. Just by sheer rule of averages he had to be correct a few times In terms of top lane champions, when he talks about a champion up there having no counter play, I almost always find myself in agreement.
: Alright, so here's a thought experiment for you. What would an unbalanced game look like, while still actually being something you could consider a game?
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lsgk897A,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:39:30.992+0000) > > Alright, so here's a thought experiment for you. What would an unbalanced game look like, while still actually being something you could consider a game? What? I guess League is something I consider unbalanced that I consider a game.
: Tryndamere warrants always losing to tahm because trynda is a melee statcheck with no outplay potential. A binary champ is going to have binary matchups.
> [{quoted}](name=5or6stores,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=000100010002,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:10:42.733+0000) > > Tryndamere warrants always losing to tahm because trynda is a melee statcheck with no outplay potential. A binary champ is going to have binary matchups. Like if you want to say it isn't broken to have an advantage over Tryndamere, I would agree with you, but the question is how much of advantage should he have? Right now, there is no counter play to facing Tahm Kench, and I would argue that hiding in my minion wave early on should be an option, especially when I am dodging the guy's only skill shot.
: Tryndamere warrants always losing to tahm because trynda is a melee statcheck with no outplay potential. A binary champ is going to have binary matchups.
> [{quoted}](name=5or6stores,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=000100010002,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:10:42.733+0000) > > Tryndamere warrants always losing to tahm because trynda is a melee statcheck with no outplay potential. A binary champ is going to have binary matchups. That is a wonderful way of framing both of their kits, and very accurate as well. However, you are not considering that Tahm beats nearly every melee champion in top lane. You're also not giving consideration to the fact that he actually DOES just walk into your minion wave early on and out trade you while missing his abilities.
: I'm not sure you know what "balanced" means. Having even a few outliers makes something unbalanced. You can have a pound of gold on either side of a scale, but if you swap out a few of the coins on one side for ones that are twice as heavy, it'll tip.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lsgk897A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:15:59.100+0000) > > I'm not sure you know what "balanced" means. > > Having even a few outliers makes something unbalanced. You can have a pound of gold on either side of a scale, but if you swap out a few of the coins on one side for ones that are twice as heavy, it'll tip. The game can never be perfectly balanced to be fair to him. So I think you have to judge how well Riot is doing, by being realistic about how balanced the game can possibly be, and then analyzing how close Riot is to reaching that imagined state.
: Honestly, if you look at champion balance overall the game is incredibly balanced
I disagree with a number of your assumptions. Number 1: you assume that because there are a number of strong champions right now, the game is therefore balanced. This isn't true. With the prevalence of invisibility and invulnerability in this game, you cannot say that the champions themselves are balanced, because many of their kits are just inherently broken. When I say inherently broken, I mean they aren't over-stat, what their kit does, if viable, will always be broken. Number 2: I suppose in a way, you could tenuously link all of the keystones back to making you more gold, because all of them enhance your champion in ways that make them more effective at making gold (i.e if a keystone gives me more damage I theoretically get more kills), but this isn't like Riot's philosophy behind making the keystones, because it is too broad. You could argue pretty much any keystone that enhances a champion in some way makes them more efficient at accruing gold. Number 3: it seems like you're acknowledging that mage items are broken, but your post is arguing that the game only seems broken... so....? Is it broken or not? Number 4: I would just say that overall, you need to understand that there are too many champions in the game with kits that have absolutely no counter-play. For example, Rengar can kill you out of invisibility without even having to touch you; he can proc all three of his abilities mid air. In season 6 and prior, champions generally had something between a 48-52% win ratio, which is indicative of fairly good balance. Now a days, it is common place to have champions that possess a 53% and above win rate. It also doesn't help that Riot refuses to nerf a lot of these champions when they sell a lot of skins (i.e Riven having 55% win rate 20% play rate for months).
: > [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-07-20T03:53:21.687+0000) > > Are you hearing yourself? You're describing exactly what I'm complaining about, and not justifying it at all. Like how can you say it is never acceptable to trade with Tahm Kench, and then say that the fault lies with me? I should be able to sit in a massive minion wave, and know that he can't just walk into me and auto me to death without hitting any of his tongue lashes. The champion that YOU DESCRIBE is extremely broken. He is a lane bully, not unlike many characters in the game: to a Gangplank, a Tryndamere is practically unkillable in a 1v1 and you don't hear anyone calling Tryndamere OP. Nasus, Renekton, Garen, and Darius can also feel impossible to fight sometimes and can literally run you under tower and kill you -- this is the power of tanky lane bullies. Tahm Kench struggles against champions that are able to trade with him through means outside of his dangerous melee range and even some who can trade with him inside it. Fiora, Vayne, Renekton, Darius, and Garen can all easily out sustain or outdamage the big fish and make him irrelevant if played accordingly. You're literally talking about running one of the characters he hard counters into a 1v1 with him and expecting to come out on top -- Tahm is far from busted post nerfs, but is still annoying into autoattack champions like Tryn.
> [{quoted}](name=ToxicSquiid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2019-07-20T04:00:59.740+0000) > > He is a lane bully, not unlike many characters in the game: to a Gangplank, a Tryndamere is practically unkillable in a 1v1 and you don't hear anyone calling Tryndamere OP. Nasus, Renekton, Garen, and Darius can also feel impossible to fight sometimes and can literally run you under tower and kill you -- this is the power of tanky lane bullies. > > Tahm Kench struggles against champions that are able to trade with him through means outside of his dangerous melee range and even some who can trade with him inside it. > > Fiora, Vayne, Renekton, Darius, and Garen can all easily out sustain or outdamage the big fish and make him irrelevant if played accordingly. You're literally talking about running one of the characters he hard counters into a 1v1 with him and expecting to come out on top -- Tahm is far from busted post nerfs, but is still annoying into autoattack champions like Tryn. There are two types of counters: soft and hard. Soft counters are healthy for the game, and hard counters are not. Tahm Kench is a hard coutner to the vast majority of melee champions. The thing that makes Tahm Kench a hard counter to melee champions, is the fact that he wins all early trades with them by a land slide with absolutely no counter play. If I am playing a valid top lane champion (so not Soraka), I should be able to have SOME outplay potential vs Tahm Kench. This means that Tahm should not be able to just walk into my minion wave, auto me, miss his abilities, but then still win every trade he takes with me by a land slide.
: We arnt trying to justify it, league is slowly turning into a stupid game of rock paper scissors. And tahm kench`s identity is a duelist who does everything he can to make someone on the enemy team more useless than he is, either by flat out dueling them directly or preventing them from assassinating his teammates... And its not like you have no way of running from tahm kench...he kills his targets slowly and efficiently like most duelists should (otherwise they would be assassins) Meanwhile tryndamere is all over the place in his identity, sometimes he makes a good assassin, sometimes he just goes around the map playing the rotating game, almost never fighting enemies directly and instead just forcing them to try to stop him from knocking down those turrets. **In this instance you wanted to be the splitpusher that avoided tahm kench at all costs, if he ults to you while you are splitting, you make a b line towards wherever both of the teams are contesting, youre more mobile than tahm kench without his ult, youll be able to force a groupfight with your slow on the enemy adc.**
> [{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-07-20T03:58:53.803+0000) > > We arnt trying to justify it, league is slowly turning into a stupid game of rock paper scissors. > > And tahm kench`s identity is a duelist who does everything he can to make someone on the enemy team more useless than he is, either by flat out dueling them directly or preventing them from assassinating his teammates... > > And its not like you have no way of running from tahm kench...he kills his targets slowly and efficiently like most duelists should (otherwise they would be assassins) > > Meanwhile tryndamere is all over the place in his identity, sometimes he makes a good assassin, sometimes he just goes around the map playing the rotating game, almost never fighting enemies directly and instead just forcing them to try to stop him from knocking down those turrets. I agreed with your post where you stated that LoL is becoming glorified rock paper scissors, but saying that because I can run away from Tahm Kench he is in a healthy spot is just fallacious. The fact of the matter is, if you're not playing a ranged champion in top lane vs Tahm Kench, you cannot cs. The moment you go to cs, no matter how well you dodge Tahm's abilities, he just walks into you and autos you, and guess what? He wins. Every. Single. Time. You shouldn't be able to pick a champion that just auto-wins the laning phase. I should have counter play at all stages of the game, which is in part what you were alluding to in your other post: the more conducive what you pick is to winning, the less skill matters. I think we can generally agree that game outcomes should be based on skill as much as possible. The current prevalence of champions with no counter play makes winning the game by being the better player very difficult.
: okay as a pyke main..
The game has never been less fun to play. With all the handicaps (i.e shutdown xp and gold), and the prevelance of broken champions and stupid mechanics like invisibility that have no counter play, this game has become utterly unplayable.
: What are you playing as and what are you even hitting them with, aatrox for example can trade with his passive if he can manage to get in and out easily.
> [{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0UzIiEd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-20T03:44:32.435+0000) > > What are you playing as and what are you even hitting them with, aatrox for example can trade with his passive if he can manage to get in and out easily. Tryndamere, Renekton and Jax. You can literally avoid all of Aatrox's critical spots with Trynd and Jax, yet still be heavily out traded. Tahm Kench is even worse.
: *Checks match history* You do know that Tahm Kench is absolutely the hardest counter to Tryndamere, yeah? There is no physical way you should ever be trying to trade with a Tahm Kench 1v1 -- that's just a basic rule of the game. He is one of the best duelists (despite the very heavy nerfs he just received, though he has received compensation already on his Q) and since he is designed to kick Tryndamere into obscurity, trading with him at all is borderline suicidal. Can't speak on Aatrox since I don't play the guy or against him too often, but he is S-Tier for a reason.
> There is no physical way you should ever be trying to trade with a Tahm Kench 1v1 -- that's just a basic rule of the game. He is one of the best duelists (despite the very heavy nerfs he just received, though he has received compensation already on his Q) and since he is designed to kick Tryndamere into obscurity, trading with him at all is borderline suicidal. Are you hearing yourself? You're describing exactly what I'm complaining about, and not justifying it at all. Like how can you say it is never acceptable to trade with Tahm Kench, and then say that the fault lies with me? I should be able to sit in a massive minion wave, and know that he can't just walk into me and auto me to death without hitting any of his tongue lashes. The champion that YOU DESCRIBE is extremely broken.
: Shut down respawn timers aren't a thing. Your respawn time is a formula with the only two variables being your level and the game length. Unless someone is an absurd amount of levels ahead of you, their respawn time shouldn't be particularly longer.
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=molVGJGB,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:55:57.178+0000) > > Shut down respawn timers aren't a thing. Your respawn time is a formula with the only two variables being your level and the game length. Unless someone is an absurd amount of levels ahead of you, their respawn time shouldn't be particularly longer. At the mid-late game levels, minor level differences make very substantial death timer differences. The death timers scale exponentially with level.
Hordes66 (NA)
: It looks like riot bit off more than they could chew.
This game has been going down hill since season 5. The introduction of additional handicaps to this so-called "competitive game" in season 7 or 8 is largely responsible for this. Right now the game is in a state where if you die with a lead, you just give back nigh all of the gold you accrued over your opponent, effectively evening the playing field. Shutdown xp is even worse by the way. Search up how kill xp works on google, and you will be horrified. Couple this with the fact that there are now more broken champions in this game than ever before, and you've got yourself an unplayable piece of garbage. It is just laughable to think that Riot actually advertises LoL as a competitive game; what is competitive about it? They literally give out handicaps to the worse players. They should fire the balance team in its entirety.
Rioter Comments
: Champion select is already too fucking important; why exacerbate it?
Riot has minimized skill in a lot of ways in the past couple of years; why is this surprising? To be honest, this post (although I agree with it) doesn't even contend with one of the top 5 problems that reduce the impact of skill in the game. Here is my list: 1) shut down gold, 2) shutdown xp, 3) prevalence of broken champions, 4) drake rng, 5) shutdown death timers. Some of these things aren't explicitly acknowledged by Riot; they don't claim that there is something called shutdown experience in LoL. Instead, they exist in their effects. All in all, it isn't a shocker that Riot's balance team is making another unpopular implementation. We are lead to believe that because Riot's primary interest is in their own bottom line (financially speaking), that they will be more inclined to make changes that the majority wants. But the majority isn't necessarily where the money is at. Think about it, why is it that Riven's 55%+ w.r in solo queue lasted for a period of months? The majority of us complained about it on Reddit, and through other mediums, but Riot did nothing to nerf her. The reasoning behind this, is that despite comprising only 15%-25% of the community, Riven players invest far more of their money into skins. Remember that it only took Riot about a week to nerf Amumu who hit the same win ratio this year. What is the difference between these two champions? The fact of the matter is that Riot can make unpopular changes to the game that cater to a minority audience, because the majority audience the implementations may displease is unwilling to stop investing in the game in the short term, which makes the toxic implementations profitable for Riot. However I will say, every time a new, popular PC game comes out, Leagues numbers take a substantial hit; although they recover eventually, they do so to a lesser extent each time. Riot's catering is good for short-term gratification, but in the end it is bad for the games longevity. Eventually a string of novel pc games will will steal what remains of the player base, who are frankly getting fed up with Riot's bs.
: Uninstalled it, blocked everything League related with BlockSite, and buried myself in better things. I always come back, but it usually takes SEVERAL months. It helps that I have to pour a ton of time into Tekken and Mortal Kombat every so often, but when tournament season isn't really in full swing, sometimes I come back to check on League's "stupid factor". (Spoiler alert: It's always higher than when I left.)
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38qdLfLE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-17T05:44:43.241+0000) > > Uninstalled it, blocked everything League related with BlockSite, and buried myself in better things. I always come back, but it usually takes SEVERAL months. It helps that I have to pour a ton of time into Tekken and Mortal Kombat every so often, but when tournament season isn't really in full swing, sometimes I come back to check on League's "stupid factor". (Spoiler alert: It's always higher than when I left.) Is the stupid factor the combination of all the stupid implementations in the game? xD
: Can’t install the game
Rioter Comments
: So, a little bit of clarification on the concept of shutdown gold. If you are ahead in gold and kills you have an innate advantage in any fight due to having more items. It makes sense to give a reward to the player who beats you despite being at an item/gold disadvantage. You can say that catch-up mechanics like this lack skill expression, but on the flip side being able to beat someone who has more kills and stronger items than you is pretty skillful imo.
> [{quoted}](name=Shadowkhan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ed1LzOiV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-17T06:46:59.049+0000) > > So, a little bit of clarification on the concept of shutdown gold. If you are ahead in gold and kills you have an innate advantage in any fight due to having more items. It makes sense to give a reward to the player who beats you despite being at an item/gold disadvantage. You can say that catch-up mechanics like this lack skill expression, but on the flip side being able to beat someone who has more kills and stronger items than you is pretty skillful imo. If you fall behind you have been outplayed several times.... You shouldn't get an extra reward for outplaying the person who's been outplaying you all game once. If you wana say we should have some shutdown gold I can agree, but it shouldn't be the case that once you kill me, we are basically back to even again, such is the case in the scenario I elaborated.
: > [{quoted}](name=funkdubious2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ed1LzOiV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-17T05:25:10.755+0000) > > Interesting points. > > I do agree that the SHUTDOWN GOLD is kinda dumb... and shouldn't exist. You're having a great game shouldn't give the whole enemy team an incentive to kill just you... nor should a random encounter with you low on health turn that lead over to a passer-by. > > The RESPAWN TIMERS shouldn't change throughout the game or by level. It should be a flat 20 seconds always. IF you get killed eraly game, thats huge. If you get killed late game, 20 seconds is still huge. If I'm popping off as Kayle, finally at level 16, and the enemy team decides to focus me down, why should I have to stay out for 60 seconds, when all other champs that are stronger than I haven't had that same handicap??? Also, If the team gets Aced, it should be 20 seconds to respawn. Thats enough time to take objectives without a defense. I agree with your first set of points about shutdown gold, but I don't know about flat timers... Maybe it is a good idea, but idk. I am reticent to agree with you that flat death timers are optimal, but I will say that they are 100% better than the handicap version we currently have. Tbh, I'm shocked someone agrees with me. It is very rare I impugn the orthodoxy that is Riot Games without hearing that I am an idiot from the community.
> [{quoted}](name=Mrs Qtpie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ed1LzOiV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-17T05:32:43.832+0000) > > I agree with your first set of points about shutdown gold, but I don't know about flat timers... Maybe it is a good idea, but idk. I am reticent to agree with you that flat death timers are optimal, but I will say that they are 100% better than the handicap version we currently have. Tbh, I'm shocked someone agrees with me. It is very rare I impugn the orthodoxy that is Riot Games without hearing that I am an idiot from the community. Also for shutdown xp... you could apply the same logic you used to trash shutdown gold to shutdown xp, and it would make perfect sense. For example, you're 3 levels up on everyone as Kayle. If you die, the enemy team is going to level up one and a half times. Now you can't use the Kayle ult in the way which it was designed to be used, you HAVE to save it for yourself.
Sillae (NA)
: she just got a skin
> [{quoted}](name=Sillae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kJgv0YmU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-16T20:13:21.582+0000) > > she just got a skin The sad thing is, this is just it. There is so much evidence that suggests Riot simply advantages champions in their patch notes who they want to sell skins for.
Saevum (NA)
: I don't know why also first turret gold plus plates is a thing. Pair that with first blood and voilà. Chaos.
> [{quoted}](name=Saevum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ed1LzOiV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-17T05:37:27.565+0000) > > I don't know why also first turret gold plus plates is a thing. Pair that with first blood and voilà. Chaos. I kind of get first turret gold, because Riot has to have some implementation to prevent the lane switch meta from transpiring again.
: Interesting points. I do agree that the SHUTDOWN GOLD is kinda dumb... and shouldn't exist. You're having a great game shouldn't give the whole enemy team an incentive to kill just you... nor should a random encounter with you low on health turn that lead over to a passer-by. I frequently hear the diamond youtubers say "i dont want to turn over this shutdown gold, so I dont go help the team fight" Thats so strategically selfish that it defies common sense and makes sense at the same time. As a Kayle, my ult is usually for my teammates. They get into a teamfight, and I wanna ult the guy whos getting bursted. But if I have a huge shutdown gold on me, its wiser for my teammate to be left to die? I'm actually okay with the SHUTDOWN EXPERIENCE, I think. I dont know... not much opinion on this right now. And I do agree about the RESPAWN TIMERS shouldn't change throughout the game or by level. It should be a flat 20 seconds always. IF you get killed eraly game, thats huge. If you get killed late game, 20 seconds is still huge. If I'm popping off as Kayle, finally at level 16, and the enemy team decides to focus me down, why should I have to stay out for 60 seconds, when all other champs that are stronger than I haven't had that same handicap??? Also, If the team gets Aced, it should be 20 seconds to respawn. Thats enough time to take objectives without a defense.
> [{quoted}](name=funkdubious2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ed1LzOiV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-17T05:25:10.755+0000) > > Interesting points. > > I do agree that the SHUTDOWN GOLD is kinda dumb... and shouldn't exist. You're having a great game shouldn't give the whole enemy team an incentive to kill just you... nor should a random encounter with you low on health turn that lead over to a passer-by. > > The RESPAWN TIMERS shouldn't change throughout the game or by level. It should be a flat 20 seconds always. IF you get killed eraly game, thats huge. If you get killed late game, 20 seconds is still huge. If I'm popping off as Kayle, finally at level 16, and the enemy team decides to focus me down, why should I have to stay out for 60 seconds, when all other champs that are stronger than I haven't had that same handicap??? Also, If the team gets Aced, it should be 20 seconds to respawn. Thats enough time to take objectives without a defense. I agree with your first set of points about shutdown gold, but I don't know about flat timers... Maybe it is a good idea, but idk. I am reticent to agree with you that flat death timers are optimal, but I will say that they are 100% better than the handicap version we currently have. Tbh, I'm shocked someone agrees with me. It is very rare I impugn the orthodoxy that is Riot Games without hearing that I am an idiot from the community.
Rioter Comments
: iknow everytime i play league i either win or lose. sometimes my teammates do bad someimtes i do bad and i lose the game almost every game like 50% of them. so annoying i hate this game i always either win or lose
> [{quoted}](name=2 Weezy Baby,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yrqBgA0c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-04T17:18:45.405+0000) > > iknow everytime i play league i either win or lose. sometimes my teammates do bad someimtes i do bad and i lose the game almost every game like 50% of them. so annoying i hate this game i always either win or lose Yea, that's his argument alright. Are you proud of yourself?
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Mrs Qtpie

Level 47 (NA)
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