: Why do people dodge when...
Rioter Comments
: Does anyone else have issues with LP?
Their claim in match making is that they try to make the odds 50/50 by using various data to pit teams against each other so after winning to get to promos, losing two and being down so much LP is a little unreasonable actually... you would have to win 4 in a row You don't think it would be a bit more fair to make it so you need to win one game to get to promos? I've now lost a third game and have like 40LP, I need to win 4 now just to get to promos after failing promos then losing one....
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-13T03:29:00.471+0000) > > I just don't think that a punishment from 3 months ago is enough of a reminder that you're about to get perma banned for a game where you get trolled and engage. If you hit a 14 day suspension for toxic behavior, you are given a very clear warning that you will be perma banned on the next offense, no matter how slight. There are only two ways to get there in the first place. The first is zero tolerance behavior, such as blatant hate speech and death threats. The second is working through two chat restrictions and doing nothing to change your behavior after that. The latter is simply you refusing to heed the original punishments. Ignoring them suggests that you will ignore any further punishment and that's why you're escalated to a 14 day ban with your account on the edge of being perma banned. When chat restrictions stacked infinitely (almost equivalent to an outright ban on chat), players who refused to change their behavior allowed them to stack into THOUSANDS of games. They had no remorse nor enough incentive to change their behavior. So Riot decided to skip the middle man and go to 14-day ban with edge of perma after the 25 game chat restriction punishment.
Not everyone is as smart as you my dude. I play the video game to be void of thought and get out of my head a bit, I'm sure others do too and people aren't capable of thinking straight all the time, The system targets stupid people otherwise they wouldn't talk doo doo, The smart ones are getting away with precise trolling, Only an idiot would get perma banned.........idiots and trolls into the garbage you go, unless you are a smart troll or smart player...you'll be fine too That's probably why nobody who has been banned can win an argument with people that haven't
: HEY everyone, you better watch out!
Why do people down vote a clear joke? Not funny? lol
Xphineas (NA)
: But if shes any good, she will just Q into a W, sunning you, where she then qs again dealing true damage because she hit a vital. {{sticker:fiora-cool}}
: Hey what do you people think about this idea?
I just don't think that a punishment from 3 months ago is enough of a reminder that you're about to get perma banned for a game where you get trolled and engage.
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-12T02:26:24.779+0000) > > You literally said it was a bad idea and then said the same idea i have.... > > Riot needs to look at people who harass and then play the victim or have people pile onto you.... > > People who report are trolls or people who like to play by the rules and don't tolerate others not...... > > Therefore if you hold them to a higher standard (like actually analyze their game - pings, movement, int, also chatting toxic but riding the line...) people who are trolls would be exposed and people who like to follow and/or enforce the rules won't have anything to worry about because they wouldn't be breaking them....or shouldn't be if they report often for everything. > > Anyways you either are a troll or didn't understand/read what I was saying so I can't really engage with you or you might report me and I could get banned. no, you're saying that people who report should be monitored more consistently than other players. I'm just saying that when you send a report, you should be monitored as well for THAT GAME. Not any other game outside of that one, unless you were reported in the next game etc. etc
> [{quoted}](name=BongMage420,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-12T07:50:48.978+0000) > > no, you're saying that people who report should be monitored more consistently than other players. I'm just saying that when you send a report, you should be monitored as well for THAT GAME. Not any other game outside of that one, unless you were reported in the next game etc. etc would take too much effort. There should be a system where you are told you were reported and what for and by which person. You should be able to then click dispute or read a message saying you can be punished with maybe some sort of way of tracking progress of how close you are to a punishment. They always say it adds up well then show it to us.... If I was aware of being 1 report away from a punishment I could play silent the whole time and/or understand what exactly is considered to be toxic. If you click dispute you better mean it because if you do it too much without proper cause to do it then you can be punished. If you dispute then the punishment should go to the person deemed the catalyst for the toxic environment. I got punished off a game where all 4 people were annoyed with one guy who was hard hard trolling.... They say it adds up but I got ONE CHAT LOG so if it adds up then show it because I am hardly toxic, I am only responsive. If someone says hey whats up ill say hey whats up....if someone says, you're 0-4 and they are 0-5 I might be like hey whoa man stop trying to direct blame on me you are 0-5 and I'm actually 0-4-10, you have one assists luls Honestly that is toxic because you've defended against someone bullying you and lying? On top of that they are actively trying to get you to die refusing to help? I made the mistake of responding to a troll and got punished, there needs to be a system where someone can say hey wait a minute this guy who reported me was trolling the whole game and with my chat taken out of context it seems toxic but it really wasn't. I guess a company that is sexist probably doesn't want people who are harassed to defend themselves.
: You're basically saying "I don't like the idea that I can't say and do whatever the hell I want in chat without risking a random person reporting me for it and getting punished, so I want regular reporting of toxic behavior to be punished so less people do it."
I'm saying if A and B verbally spar and then A and B report each other, And A gets punished but B doesn't .... The match should be reviewed closer... If B was deemed clearly the root of the problem with his/her physical actions/verbal/pings (trolling) Then A should not be punished and instead given a 1 time warning to not respond in a negative way no matter the circumstances...followed by a punishment even if not deemed the "troll" I hate to say it but most people don't read up on the game, I'm sure a lot do but I would say a solid half of the population just wings it I understand that's not an excuse however punishments seem to come out of nowhere then months could potentially go by ... it's important to know who is reporting you and for what.....then you could report the report if you felt he was the problem not you then the game is looked at.....if you make riot look all willy nilly then you could get some sort of penalty.... I feel it is fair to hear your accuser and have the chance to dispute....If you think the person who reported you int, trolled, harassed and egged you on then you can counter report, the game gets looked at and if buddy was doing those things and then plays the victim then he/she should get punished. Hold people accountable for the reports they make, why is that such a hard idea to jump on?? How can you disagree with a basic right of facing your accuser.... Real trolls troll in the dark just outside the reach of the punishment system...
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-12T02:26:24.779+0000) > > You literally said it was a bad idea and then said the same idea i have.... > > Riot needs to look at people who harass and then play the victim or have people pile onto you.... > > People who report are trolls or people who like to play by the rules and don't tolerate others not...... > > Therefore if you hold them to a higher standard (like actually analyze their game - pings, movement, int, also chatting toxic but riding the line...) people who are trolls would be exposed and people who like to follow and/or enforce the rules won't have anything to worry about because they wouldn't be breaking them....or shouldn't be if they report often for everything. > > Anyways you either are a troll or didn't understand/read what I was saying so I can't really engage with you or you might report me and I could get banned. no, you're saying that people who report should be monitored more consistently than other players. I'm just saying that when you send a report, you should be monitored as well for THAT GAME. Not any other game outside of that one, unless you were reported in the next game etc. etc
That's literally what I said lol People who report need to be looked at and held to a high standard.... Why would they look at games where they didnt report someone lol Sure though take the idea I had ...good idea man lol
: Shows you are ranked 8050 NA
> [{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ep60E3ft,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-12T03:08:01.508+0000) > > Shows you are ranked 8050 NA For reals? You know that there are higher ranks than G3 right? So find a support lux MAIN in NA that is in G3 and ranked higher than me? How would being #1 Lux Support G3 NA make me top ranked overall? Sure a main support lux in higher elos could argue they would be #1 in G3 but they are NOT G3 so they ain't #1 in G3 are they? That's right, I am... Deal with it.
: Hey what do you people think about this idea?
Imagine going into a brawl then getting your arse beat while your team just sat there doing nothing then on top of that you get charged because you questioned why they didn't help you.
: Hey what do you people think about this idea?
look at yas pushing out again half hp already wont stop going forward hen will blame ganks i havent even seen you at your turret lol like what are you doing lol youre int i play mid too with lux actually and i dont die everytime i get ganked just saying just because their jungle comes doesnt mean you have to die sigh xayah been at same cs for 5 mins now lol this xayah is something else im leaving lane youre 0-3 and stuburn not helping me youre so slow on your skills not sure if youre new ekko its ok if you are ANYBODY GOING TO COME DO ANYTHING funny thing about it is there was 3 people standing there doing nothing lol : bro you think im going to lane lol If you knew that everything being said here is factual and being said to a person physically and verbally ruining the game you would be okay with these chat logs permanently banning an account? This is copy and paste of what the person said about their ban with these examples as why he/she was banned. The one game the guy was literally diving forward into mid lanes turret then saying "gank man, wtf you suck, report this guy, he doesn't gank, he sucks, f you" I even tried to come help and he flashed ahead, dove into turret and left me to die....then blamed me. Kept complaining he was getting ganked and I mean what is wrong with saying just because you get ganked doesn't mean you have to die every time and it's freaking true!? Xayah would ping me if I took farm but was missing it and/or losing it....I was taking what was about to be lost only and then she complained and the whole team raged on me.... Xayah actually didn't do much physically to lose the game so I felt bad and came back to lane, leaving lane on this xayah was probably the most toxic thing I did out of all these examples although her missing farm while pinging me to not salvage it was annoying, overall she was not a troll. When I said you're stubborn and not helping and also 0-3 it was after the person said what my kda was (which was much better than his so he knew I would say that probably) The ekko was flaming me and look to be actively letting me die so I questioned the speed of his skills.... He ran in circles in a 2v1 (our advantage) while I had to 1v1 as support against a mid laner, he didn't want me in lane so let me die.....after i failed 1v1 (I made a q that if he jumped in got us the kill) but he never came....after i failed he jumped in, died and then blamed me telling me to leave the lane and asking people to report/hate on me. The last chat log was at THE START OF THE GAME AND IT WAS THE ONLY THING I SAID NEGATIVE IN THE GAME, I GOT REPORTED BECAUSE I GAVE FB WHILE MY TEAM WAS AFK IN A BUSH WITHIN RANGE TO HELP/GET KILLS.....then they blasted me for giving FB....reported me and boom....perm banned. I know people argue there is a build up to a ban but this is honestly the best they could give him/her as examples of being toxic? Trying to deal with people physically trolling the game is being toxic? Being trolled is toxic? wtf? How does that make any sense?
: HEY everyone, you better watch out!
{{champion:99}} {{champion:18}}
Xphineas (NA)
: Oh no, oh oh no. {{sticker:sg-janna}}
Don't worry see my face? I'm scared, come closer. *Fiora relaxes and confidently moves forward* Feel the light! Blast off! *Fiora dies*
Keiaga (NA)
: Where are you getting any of these statistics
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-12T02:31:53.262+0000) > > Where are you getting any of these statistics Why would Riot release or collect any statistics proving that their system is flawed and crappy? The one statistic I mention I started with "my best bet is" meaning I'm estimating.. If anyone can prove it incorrect then do so. I also said "if 1 in 10 people..." not "1 in 10 people have been proven to do this"....there is a difference. Not sure which statistics you're talking about. This is an opinion that people can agree with or disagree, I'm thinking outside the box while analyzing my own experiences mixed with countless posts of injustice with the punishment system. Every complaint I've seen is someone was trolled into reacting, it is the most common gripe with the punishment system. The response is "you were toxic because you said a and b" and that it doesn't matter that the other guy baited you into dying, harassed you, pings you, ints.....I say it should freakin matter and those people need to be looked at closer instead of dismissing anyone who complains about being punished telling them they deserve it because a company with high standards that they don't meet themselves say so. They probably prefer no context so they aren't the only ones getting in trouble. Punish all you want and keep the rules as is, I'll do my best but trolls reporting me needs to be analyzed and then not held against me if determined a troll job. I'm not saying every report or every punishment but maybe before being permanently banned one could maybe bring context into play and a human could maybe watch the game and be like darn yeah that guy clearly was trolling physically and verbally while you were responding you played to your fullest and tried to win. I got chat restriction in a game where someone physically trolled me, the team wasn't able to pay attention as it was lane phase so they all turned on me. By the time the game was over, everyone was "against" the guy who started it once they paid closer attention to his/her play and chat and on top of all that, I pulled the game from the gutters and carried us to victory on my back after we all made nice and we started to play as a team. (initially everyone would actively not help me thinking I was toxic until they noticed how hard I was trying/skilled I was and that the actual problem was clearly throwing/trolling and then blaming me) Anyways which statistics are you talking about?..... I don't really see a part where I state that anything statistical is not an estimation of probability. And if this is your way of countering what I said then
Xphineas (NA)
: Oh nooo! Dont burst me. Im just a fiora player. {{sticker:fiora-cool}}
> [{quoted}](name=Xphineas,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ep60E3ft,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-10T13:32:02.781+0000) > > Oh nooo! Dont burst me. Im just a fiora player. > {{sticker:fiora-cool}} I only do set up for fiora... come into my fatal funnel and my teammates would gladly finish you off.
: I’m just a potato but don’t anger me—just in case we meet on EUW.
> [{quoted}](name=A Friendless Boy,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ep60E3ft,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-10T14:03:10.553+0000) > > I’m just a potato but don’t anger me—just in case we meet on EUW. Mehhh I would destroy you no matter where we met....unless it's irl because that would be murder.
: > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tgXfEWFy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-10T15:56:14.213+0000) > > The thing is there's no context that actually matters. You were either toxic or you weren't. > > What they did doesn't matter in the slightest, unless what they did was hold a gun to your head and force you to be toxic. > > And one of the big reasons Riot doesn't let you see reports against you is so that it's not abused for harassment, in both directions. It'd be used to harass people by trolls and for people to go "lul luk at dis SHNOWFLEK who reported me when I only sasid ######### ###### #### ################## # #### ############!!!!!!!!!!!!" Sure context doesn't matter and he should shouldn't be toxic, but toxic doesn't lose games. Int, feeders, trolls lose games. So losing your account because you typed some words to someone legitimately and actively working to lose you a game and thus waste 40min is unjust.
> [{quoted}](name=Twice Waifu Mina,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tgXfEWFy,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T16:03:19.559+0000) > > Sure context doesn't matter and he should shouldn't be toxic, but toxic doesn't lose games. Int, feeders, trolls lose games. So losing your account because you typed some words to someone legitimately and actively working to lose you a game and thus waste 40min is unjust. Honestly in a game where people can mute how do simple words get you banned? (although extreme hate, violent, homophobic, racist and sexist remarks would deserve a ban imo even as just words) Someone could go hey man what's my score and is it good? then report the guy who responded you're 0-4 and that isn't good bro... it's punishable lol like come on....system is clearly broken.
: I think that's a fuckin terrible idea, as holding anyone to a higher standard than others is just wrong. However, I've been reported for "flaming" trolls (telling others to report them is considered a reportable offence according to mods on here), and we all know that trolls are REALLY good at playing the victim. If someone reports another player, they should also be inspected for that match. And they should also actually start FUCKING DOING SOMETHING ABOUT TROLLS
> [{quoted}](name=BongMage420,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dIFc57M8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-12T01:54:44.221+0000) > > I think that's a fuckin terrible idea, as holding anyone to a higher standard than others is just wrong. However, I've been reported for "flaming" trolls (telling others to report them is considered a reportable offence according to mods on here), and we all know that trolls are REALLY good at playing the victim. If someone reports another player, they should also be inspected for that match. And they should also actually start FUCKING DOING SOMETHING ABOUT TROLLS You literally said it was a bad idea and then said the same idea i have.... Riot needs to look at people who harass and then play the victim or have people pile onto you.... People who report are trolls or people who like to play by the rules and don't tolerate others not...... Therefore if you hold them to a higher standard (like actually analyze their game - pings, movement, int, also chatting toxic but riding the line...) people who are trolls would be exposed and people who like to follow and/or enforce the rules won't have anything to worry about because they wouldn't be breaking them....or shouldn't be if they report often for everything. Anyways you either are a troll or didn't understand/read what I was saying so I can't really engage with you or you might report me and I could get banned.
Arcade Lulu (EUNE)
: Post logs If you were toxic, you deserve the punishment Just because someone else is breaking the rules, doesn't mean you are allowed to break the rules Context doesn't really matter because if you were toxic you were toxic, end of story You're being punished for your actions and words, so what they did doesn't matter False reports do NOTHING against you And you can improve by following the rules and not being toxic
> [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tgXfEWFy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-10T16:00:09.444+0000) > > Post logs > > If you were toxic, you deserve the punishment > Just because someone else is breaking the rules, doesn't mean you are allowed to break the rules > Context doesn't really matter because if you were toxic you were toxic, end of story > You're being punished for your actions and words, so what they did doesn't matter > > False reports do NOTHING against you > And you can improve by following the rules and not being toxic I was given one log. Not logs. If me and you were arguing and reported each other then who is being toxic to who? Perspective and context matter in determining that. If I am being toxic to you then you can't be toxic to me it's either one person is toxic and one isn't... The person being aggressive, abusive and looking for a reaction is the poison and the other is a victim but both are labelled toxic... I haven't changed how I chat or play my games and I am punishment free because I get along with mostly everyone...Every chat log I've ever gotten as an example involved the biggest troll a troll could troll. If I go into a bar intending to fight someone I see you and I nudge you, you nudge me wondering whats this guys deal and then I knock you out, who would be at fault? I started it and finished it but somewhere in the middle you broke the rule of no nudging. Would you happily get punished for that or would you be pretty upset? I know fighting is more serious and physical but I think anyone can see how silly it is to punish someone who was beat down just because the rules said so....Fine the game is free (the creator is a millionaire from this game) so maybe not free?... Even if you choose not to buy anything you've still sold your information, they can show you ads, you sustain the popularity by playing, ads revenue, tournaments, fans, everything like that is a form of payment of which you give the company when you play so the game might not cost money but it isn't "free". Accounts give the company revenue one way or the other....if anything this game is one of the most expensive games to play because we all know most people go buck wild gambling for skins which can run people thousands.... I would rather have all content for 69.99 then spend money buying content that can be ripped away at a moments notice. There is a reason why the game is free to play because the pay for exclusivity scheme is a huge money maker. Unless by free they mean no monthly subscription.... they know they would lose the average customer and would have to unlock all content (I bet the average person spends money at the store higher than a reasonable monthly rate would be) You can't justify a monthly subscription with content you still have to buy and can only borrow. Riot is ran by petty nerds who struck rich made a great game but they hate "bullies" and are completely biased to anyone being mean that isn't them. I would love to see a day in the life of creators and listen to the vile stuff they probably say and or do. The standard isn't met by the company dictating it and they can take your account away on a whim (I know I'm not specifically being targeted and in fact I was told that it is a common complaint, very common but nothing can be done due to rules made by publicly incorrect people) I think the idea was pitched like this Lets make a bot scan chat logs and instant punish people if they get flagged no matter the situation, context or history of the person with no way to dispute our iron clad gray area type rules of which we can open to any interpretation we want because the game is free! Brilliant we will save thousands of dollars worth of people power to properly punish people by replacing them with a computer program. Something that takes everything literal tasked with determining guilt is outrageous.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:44:07.899+0000) > > Unless I missed it I don't see you publicly telling baval that so... > > System at work again if I continue to not be nice to someone being mean to me I'll be punished lol i didnt see his post but ill check again.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T00:43:50.274+0000) > > i didnt see his post but ill check again. He was probably just mildly annoying. Thanks very much for your input it helps me think more on stuff and the truth is the punishment doesn't matter...more will eventually come, nothing will change I'll get banned and then make a new account... circle of life continues...
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:32:17.200+0000) > > Strict is fine BUT with the punishments being so severe (I say that because you could have hundreds of dollars and time invested but can be perm banned at the drop of a hat ) > > There needs to be a human element added to the ban system...if you add context to the chat logs and actually see who is at fault you can correctly punish people. I'm a bystandard that got stuck into a toxic convo, I was arguable the least toxic on my team and was the center of their toxicity. They were 4 people I was one so my chat was more dense because I was responding to different people, theirs seemed less because they were a team. > > I get it you can't review everyone everywhere but I mean if you added the other peoples chat to what I said you'd easily easily see even just scanning it that I was the victim... > > Why isn't context a factor when banning someone on an account with hundreds to thousands of dollars and time spent? > > Also who is slipping through the cracks? Mildly toxic people that can be muted? Because right now the people slipping through the cracks are people like baval and the people being punished are stupid people with rage issues like me. (I have a mental disorder- PTSD btw but get punished anyways even after being harassed) Yes a human element would be beneificlal because a computer isnt understanding or discerning.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T00:45:02.357+0000) > > Yes a human element would be beneificlal because a computer isnt understanding or discerning. Yes exactly thank you, A human element with context taken into account....at the very least before a permanent ban there should be a human interaction with the ability to actually make a fair decision based off individual situations. Give your customers what you give streamers and pros, a chance to defend themselves and get unbanned but I guess pros get everything for free and it hurts riot if they leave so I guess us normals would never get such a chance.
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:14:52.078+0000) > > The system at work again - the guy throwing in subtle insults then plays the victim is off Scott free on this one and I'll be punished.. Dont jump to conclusions. Im only asking you to be nice.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:24:49.451+0000) > > Dont jump to conclusions. Im only asking you to be nice. Unless I missed it I don't see you publicly telling baval that so... System at work again if I continue to not be nice to someone being mean to me I'll be punished lol
: > [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:16:00.146+0000) > > whatever you say friendo. learn to control your paranoia. im not going to respond to your random conspiracy theories about my intentions, and your insults dont bother me because youre just some random person online. I dont care if you get banned or not. I certainly wouldnt want your paranoid self in my games though, whining the whole game about imagined slights instead of playing. This kind of thing is why you got punished. End of story. Youre toxic and you think its ok because of imaginary slights that others make against you. > > Earlier you asked if Id try to mute you if you punched me in the face. If "muting" you in this context prevented you from punching me in the face, absolutely. Thats perfect protection against the behavior I dont like. But you dont want protection. You want vengeance. You want the other person to hurt the way they hurt you, so you *have* to respond, just letting them get away with it would hurt your pride. > > You said so yourself > he's probably a big boy and knows he is egging me on so he deserves within reason some poking back. > > > Thats toxic under Riots rules, and thats why you get punished, and thats completely fair, because two people arguing the whole game is not playing to your full capacity and that is one of the rules too. > > Your punishment, all of your punishment including the mark and the honor reset, was deserved. The fact that you dont like it is what makes it an effective punishment. Well said man... I still think chat restriction is enough. Honor took months and within one game gone. Not sure why you're acting like a good guy while hurling insults at me. I also know that you being the jerk you are isn't an excuse to say stuff back based off riots rules but I heavily disagree and feel it should be changed. You're being a little smart ass and because I'm a bit more or a neanderthal it is easier to pick out my insults. Also the physicality irl doesn'thave a mute button... you'd probably be toast.I don't understand the goal of making a game completely conflict free chat wise... we are playing monsters and mages and killing eachother with spells /weapons and I can't tell someone to go f themselves when they call me a shtty loser?
> [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:41:07.242+0000) > > Well said man... I still think chat restriction is enough. Honor took months and within one game gone. Not sure why you're acting like a good guy while hurling insults at me. I also know that you being the jerk you are isn't an excuse to say stuff back based off riots rules but I heavily disagree and feel it should be changed. You're being a little smart ass and because I'm a bit more or a neanderthal it is easier to pick out my insults. Also the physicality irl doesn'thave a mute button... you'd probably be toast.I don't understand the goal of making a game completely conflict free chat wise... we are playing monsters and mages and killing eachother with spells /weapons and I can't tell someone to go f themselves when they call me a shtty loser? I also never said toxicity is okay and you called me paranoid for assuming your intentions and then assumed mine. You can put words together that's for sure but I think you're missing a lot of real world experience.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-04T20:55:52.831+0000) > > Baval is a bully, I'm simply reacting and there is a difference imo. I'm actually a nice guy tbh. Lol whatever you say friendo. learn to control your paranoia. im not going to respond to your random conspiracy theories about my intentions, and your insults dont bother me because youre just some random person online. I dont care if you get banned or not. I certainly wouldnt want your paranoid self in my games though, whining the whole game about imagined slights instead of playing. This kind of thing is why you got punished. End of story. Youre toxic and you think its ok because of imaginary slights that others make against you. Earlier you asked if Id try to mute you if you punched me in the face. If "muting" you in this context prevented you from punching me in the face, absolutely. Thats perfect protection against the behavior I dont like. But you dont want protection. You want vengeance. You want the other person to hurt the way they hurt you, so you *have* to respond, just letting them get away with it would hurt your pride. You said so yourself > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-09-04T20:54:52.146+0000) he's probably a big boy and knows he is egging me on so he deserves within reason some poking back. Thats toxic under Riots rules, and thats why you get punished, and thats completely fair, because two people arguing the whole game is not playing to your full capacity and that is one of the rules too. Your punishment, all of your punishment including the mark and the honor reset, was deserved. The fact that you dont like it is what makes it an effective punishment.
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:16:00.146+0000) > > whatever you say friendo. learn to control your paranoia. im not going to respond to your random conspiracy theories about my intentions, and your insults dont bother me because youre just some random person online. I dont care if you get banned or not. I certainly wouldnt want your paranoid self in my games though, whining the whole game about imagined slights instead of playing. This kind of thing is why you got punished. End of story. Youre toxic and you think its ok because of imaginary slights that others make against you. > > Earlier you asked if Id try to mute you if you punched me in the face. If "muting" you in this context prevented you from punching me in the face, absolutely. Thats perfect protection against the behavior I dont like. But you dont want protection. You want vengeance. You want the other person to hurt the way they hurt you, so you *have* to respond, just letting them get away with it would hurt your pride. > > You said so yourself > he's probably a big boy and knows he is egging me on so he deserves within reason some poking back. > > > Thats toxic under Riots rules, and thats why you get punished, and thats completely fair, because two people arguing the whole game is not playing to your full capacity and that is one of the rules too. > > Your punishment, all of your punishment including the mark and the honor reset, was deserved. The fact that you dont like it is what makes it an effective punishment. Well said man... I still think chat restriction is enough. Honor took months and within one game gone. Not sure why you're acting like a good guy while hurling insults at me. I also know that you being the jerk you are isn't an excuse to say stuff back based off riots rules but I heavily disagree and feel it should be changed. You're being a little smart ass and because I'm a bit more or a neanderthal it is easier to pick out my insults. Also the physicality irl doesn'thave a mute button... you'd probably be toast.I don't understand the goal of making a game completely conflict free chat wise... we are playing monsters and mages and killing eachother with spells /weapons and I can't tell someone to go f themselves when they call me a shtty loser?
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:27:58.063+0000) > > Spreading falsitudes? By saying the system is too strict? It's my opinion lol. > > One of my main concerns about the system is that it is automated with no human interaction. Sometimes the automated system get it wrong especially when analyzing a conversation and trying to determine it's toxicity. I'm asking in my plea to allow support to actually review a ban and add context to it because a lot of the times people are the victim but displayed as the villain. > > There was a streamer that just got trolled hard and then banned so doesnt that shine light on the issue? > > Also if you are going to enforce rules then maybe you shouldn't make sarcastic remarks like some synth lord is overlooking me which dismisses all my arguments and makes me seem crazy. You also called me a liar and I would like to see what I said that was a lie or false because this is a forum with opinions and ideas to make things better which is all I was trying to do. > > The system is designed to keep negative remarks however determining if they are negative remarks should rely on context and it doesn't....it's a problem that should be fixed... a pretty simple solution would be to allow support to review punishments and determine fault. I put in a ticket and someone emailed me pretty quickly and we had a convo, he/she could have spent 5 mins reading the chat log and would have seen me getting berated and abused by 3-4 people.. See this is EXACTLY the issue. Some people say its too strict, some people say not strict enough. TBH more strict is better because if not, people will slip through the system and even now they do. The system is doing what it is meant to. Also, if you dont want the system to get you, dont be rude or toxic period.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T21:14:57.679+0000) > > See this is EXACTLY the issue. Some people say its too strict, some people say not strict enough. TBH more strict is better because if not, people will slip through the system and even now they do. The system is doing what it is meant to. Also, if you dont want the system to get you, dont be rude or toxic period. Strict is fine BUT with the punishments being so severe (I say that because you could have hundreds of dollars and time invested but can be perm banned at the drop of a hat ) There needs to be a human element added to the ban system...if you add context to the chat logs and actually see who is at fault you can correctly punish people. I'm a bystandard that got stuck into a toxic convo, I was arguable the least toxic on my team and was the center of their toxicity. They were 4 people I was one so my chat was more dense because I was responding to different people, theirs seemed less because they were a team. I get it you can't review everyone everywhere but I mean if you added the other peoples chat to what I said you'd easily easily see even just scanning it that I was the victim... Why isn't context a factor when banning someone on an account with hundreds to thousands of dollars and time spent? Also who is slipping through the cracks? Mildly toxic people that can be muted? Because right now the people slipping through the cracks are people like baval and the people being punished are stupid people with rage issues like me. (I have a mental disorder- PTSD btw but get punished anyways even after being harassed)
: Wake up! It isn't fair and it isn't right....
Baval is a bully, I'm simply reacting and there is a difference imo. I'm actually a nice guy tbh. Lol
: Wake up! It isn't fair and it isn't right....
Riot is focusing so much on "bullying" and not doing much about intentional losing and/or trolls that try to start shit while riding the line of toxicity. The bullies end up winning because it is easier to be a bully then help the one being harassed so everyone jumps on and then reports. It's terrible. Chat doesn't effect the game because you can mute... I understand certain things can heavily trigger someone but saying someone is being scared boy or saying someone is acting like an a hole isn't something a moderator should have to step in and fix.. he's probably a big boy and knows he is egging me on so he deserves within reason some poking back.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:50:57.480+0000) > > The word is the same but I think you know how you were using it, I said buddy in friendly way and you used it to try to bully me. > > Just because I'm not a coward and I'm direct doesn't mean people like you should be safe from punishment. > > Also this isn't an in game interaction so if this is toxic I'm normally less toxic then even this in game. > > Show me a conversation where someone doesn't poke like you do and I'm toxic. You want to be friends I'll be friends you want to argue and hide behind intelligent insults I'll converse with you in a negative way. ok buddy whatever you say
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T19:45:11.613+0000) > > ok buddy whatever you say Lol what you're doing now is bullying... I've identified words that don't sit well with me when used a certain way and you're repeatedly doing it trying to get a reaction. It's a huge problem in league, little squirts become heroes online behind a keyboard and they manipulate the automated system by staying away from certain phrases or words and hope the person reacts in a way that can be picked up by the system. Only a coward would passively insult someone and then cry like baby the person in charge once they get the result they know will create a punishment. You are absolutely a great example as why the system is flawed... I would be punished if you took this conversation and took out what he said and/or don't recognize him as a troll purposely trying to get a rise out of me... I think everyone can see he is manipulating the conversation in an attempt to create a toxic environment so he can seem like a victim. People like this get away Scott free. Notice how he doesn't address any points I made or answer any questions, his only goal was to have me say something and then go oh look at him what a toxic guy...ban him. I constantly run into people like this and occasionally slip up... some people are so good at it, they say something and I respond...all friendly then I realize if they take away what they just said then I can be punished... the punishment system needs a human element especially when I permanent ban comes into play.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-04T15:52:19.837+0000) > > If you read our interaction you returning my buddy with a buddy was the aggressive act. Then you called me bud and also said I was heated and that everyone can see why I was banned. I clearly wasn't negatively responding to how long you've played but rather your tone and use of certain words. > > Very classic case of scared boy syndrome where you actively try to upset someone then fall back scared and become the victim. so, saying the exact same word to you that you said to me was an aggressive act. alright bud. see this is what *you* would call a "mildly heated discussion" but which is, in fact, you reading into things, going off the rails, and escalating the situation by immediately becoming toxic, then trying to defend it with "i was only defending myself". this is why you got punished, deserved =)
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:37:16.939+0000) > > so, saying the exact same word to you that you said to me was an aggressive act. alright bud. see this is what *you* would call a "mildly heated discussion" but which is, in fact, you reading into things, going off the rails, and escalating the situation by immediately becoming toxic, then trying to defend it with "i was only defending myself". this is why you got punished, deserved =) The word is the same but I think you know how you were using it, I said buddy in friendly way and you used it to try to bully me. Just because I'm not a coward and I'm direct doesn't mean people like you should be safe from punishment. Also this isn't an in game interaction so if this is toxic I'm normally less toxic then even this in game. Show me a conversation where someone doesn't poke like you do and I'm toxic. You want to be friends I'll be friends you want to argue and hide behind intelligent insults I'll converse with you in a negative way.
: Wake up! It isn't fair and it isn't right....
And I understand I'm not being targeted btw by a synth lord***
: No I am afraid you are spreading falsitudes. Our punishment system is designed to keep the negativity out. Of course there will always be toxic players, but it is automated. There isnt some evil sith lord behind the scenes manipulating everything.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:05:50.415+0000) > > No I am afraid you are spreading falsitudes. Our punishment system is designed to keep the negativity out. Of course there will always be toxic players, but it is automated. There isnt some evil sith lord behind the scenes manipulating everything. Also the synth lord does exist and is the one who inputs what the system punishes, what kind of punishments are given and there are even people that get special treatment and unbanned... You're telling me an automated system made up the rules, punishments and unbans toxic streamers? Lol
: No I am afraid you are spreading falsitudes. Our punishment system is designed to keep the negativity out. Of course there will always be toxic players, but it is automated. There isnt some evil sith lord behind the scenes manipulating everything.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:05:50.415+0000) > > No I am afraid you are spreading falsitudes. Our punishment system is designed to keep the negativity out. Of course there will always be toxic players, but it is automated. There isnt some evil sith lord behind the scenes manipulating everything. Spreading falsitudes? By saying the system is too strict? It's my opinion lol. One of my main concerns about the system is that it is automated with no human interaction. Sometimes the automated system get it wrong especially when analyzing a conversation and trying to determine it's toxicity. I'm asking in my plea to allow support to actually review a ban and add context to it because a lot of the times people are the victim but displayed as the villain. There was a streamer that just got trolled hard and then banned so doesnt that shine light on the issue? Also if you are going to enforce rules then maybe you shouldn't make sarcastic remarks like some synth lord is overlooking me which dismisses all my arguments and makes me seem crazy. You also called me a liar and I would like to see what I said that was a lie or false because this is a forum with opinions and ideas to make things better which is all I was trying to do. The system is designed to keep negative remarks however determining if they are negative remarks should rely on context and it doesn't....it's a problem that should be fixed... a pretty simple solution would be to allow support to review punishments and determine fault. I put in a ticket and someone emailed me pretty quickly and we had a convo, he/she could have spent 5 mins reading the chat log and would have seen me getting berated and abused by 3-4 people..
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T11:18:23.194+0000) > > If you think this is a man heated then you must be a scared little boy buddy:( I would ask that you not disrespect or tilt other users. Please be kind.
> [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:07:50.421+0000) > > I would ask that you not disrespect or tilt other users. Please be kind. The system at work again - the guy throwing in subtle insults then plays the victim is off Scott free on this one and I'll be punished..
: > [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T16:41:19.279+0000) > > been playing since S1 buddy, im about as "over time" as you can get Slow clap pal you probably don't play enough in row to have it accumulate...I bet you take weeks without playing this game here and there. Some people don't and if you play daily for 1000 games and are toxic in the 30-40 games you'll be punished...buds
> [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T19:52:38.889+0000) > > Slow clap pal you probably don't play enough in row to have it accumulate...I bet you take weeks without playing this game here and there. Some people don't and if you play daily for 1000 games and are toxic in the 30-40 games you'll be punished...buds And btw I wasn't able to look at your history until now and confirmed you have several 1 - 3 week breaks in your history ....like I said over time of consistent playing if you're toxic for 1% of your games and play poorly for 10-15% and get reported you'll eventually get banned so the system needs to change based off that fact alone. People can play a lot and not be banned I get that to everything has two sides.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T11:18:23.194+0000) > > If you think this is a man heated then you must be a scared little boy buddy:( yeah see, attempts to escalate the argument like this, this is why you get punished. Absolutely deserved. Thanks for showing everyone =)
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T15:00:53.780+0000) > > yeah see, attempts to escalate the argument like this, this is why you get punished. Absolutely deserved. Thanks for showing everyone =) If you read our interaction you returning my buddy with a buddy was the aggressive act. Then you called me bud and also said I was heated and that everyone can see why I was banned. I clearly wasn't negatively responding to how long you've played but rather your tone and use of certain words. Very classic case of scared boy syndrome where you actively try to upset someone then fall back scared and become the victim.
: > [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T15:00:53.780+0000) > > yeah see, attempts to escalate the argument like this, this is why you get punished. Absolutely deserved. Thanks for showing everyone =) Thanks for giving an example of a smug a hole who knows what he's doing and then suddenly plays the victim when the other person stands up for themselves... better write up a report you poor soul. The world isn't rainbows and kittens as I know first hand raising buttercups is going to be detrimental when the world needs warriors.
> [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T15:29:59.670+0000) > > Thanks for giving an example of a smug a hole who knows what he's doing and then suddenly plays the victim when the other person stands up for themselves... better write up a report you poor soul. > > The world isn't rainbows and kittens as I know first hand raising buttercups is going to be detrimental when the world needs warriors. Also I never said I shouldn't have gotten a chat ban (even though I feel it could have gone either way it) I'm talking about the extras added like honor lost, a strike towards a ban... I'm saying their punishments are too harsh and their rules are too strict. Either lower the punishments and stay strict or keep the punishments as is and be less strict.. The crimes don't match the punishments. Like your little example, you told me I was heated and you actually escalated the conversation to an unfriendly tone. You even admittedly did it on purpose by finalizing the conversation with the ah hah see! Look you should be punished. Lol the exact problem with the system is people like you. Mild toxicity can be muted... saying a fact isn't even toxic read the words carefully IF you THINK that is what a heated man sounds like then you must be a scared little boy... you get to choose if you're scared I didn't say you were... if you think soft you're soft sorry to break it to you
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T11:18:23.194+0000) > > If you think this is a man heated then you must be a scared little boy buddy:( yeah see, attempts to escalate the argument like this, this is why you get punished. Absolutely deserved. Thanks for showing everyone =)
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T15:00:53.780+0000) > > yeah see, attempts to escalate the argument like this, this is why you get punished. Absolutely deserved. Thanks for showing everyone =) Thanks for giving an example of a smug a hole who knows what he's doing and then suddenly plays the victim when the other person stands up for themselves... better write up a report you poor soul. The world isn't rainbows and kittens as I know first hand raising buttercups is going to be detrimental when the world needs warriors.
: You just answered your own question. Riot doesn't want to enable people to bully someone into leaving a game to avoid LP loss. In other words we can't have nice things because people are shitty.
> [{quoted}](name=Quality Content,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QelBMJVW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-04T05:21:46.280+0000) > > You just answered your own question. Riot doesn't want to enable people to bully someone into leaving a game to avoid LP loss. In other words we can't have nice things because people are shitty. Right but like I said, duos would be exempt from lp relief if their duo discs and if you punish disconnects that are clearly trying to dodge a loss for the team then people wouldn't risk doing it. Why would you disc for random strangers and lose more lp plus possibly get in trouble for disc.. I think people would try to manipulate it but it would be phased out quickly..
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T19:52:38.889+0000) > > Slow clap pal you probably don't play enough in row to have it accumulate...I bet you take weeks without playing this game here and there. Some people don't and if you play daily for 1000 games and are toxic in the 30-40 games you'll be punished...buds i dont think you know what accumulate means bud and if youre getting heated over someone telling you how long theyve been playing, i think we can see why youre getting punished
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T03:52:10.318+0000) > > i dont think you know what accumulate means bud > > and if youre getting heated over someone telling you how long theyve been playing, i think we can see why youre getting punished Also when I said accumulate I meant reports in a row.. I play daily when I play with multiple games so if I have one bad day I could be punished because I occasionally get reported and if I play enough eventually reports will string together resulting in a punishment for super super light toxic levels from a game full of trolls...you probably take huge breaks from the game ... Accumulate means to gather, collect, acquire more of something (like reports) what does accumulate mean to you? Lol how did I use it incorrectly?
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MustardTigerMK,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T19:52:38.889+0000) > > Slow clap pal you probably don't play enough in row to have it accumulate...I bet you take weeks without playing this game here and there. Some people don't and if you play daily for 1000 games and are toxic in the 30-40 games you'll be punished...buds i dont think you know what accumulate means bud and if youre getting heated over someone telling you how long theyve been playing, i think we can see why youre getting punished
> [{quoted}](name=Baval,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EbZdFYt0,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T03:52:10.318+0000) > > i dont think you know what accumulate means bud > > and if youre getting heated over someone telling you how long theyve been playing, i think we can see why youre getting punished If you think this is a man heated then you must be a scared little boy buddy:(
: Why do you lose LP when someone is AFK?
What is the incentive to even reconnect to help win after being disc for 3+ mins?? You can disc for 5 mins, play 40 mins win and get a loss....wth? and teammates get punished!? OMG
: Why do you lose LP when someone is AFK?
*My point is they made sure to punish the guy who disc because if you disc, come back for 20 minutes of the game and help win, you get the loss still with a disconnect* Riot always finds ways to punish but hardly ever reward, we all know how hard the rewards are to get eh. Not sure if anyone knows that but it happened to me, my client crashed (Riots fault?) I manage to finally come back into the game (I think I was like 1-0-3 when I disc and it was a steam roll) i finished the game like 10-0-8 something nice a tidy so I was back for a heavy chunk at the end and helped win the game but got a loss and minus LP. So basically the person disc CAN NOT redeem themselves and the people on their team also get punished by having to play 4v5 and take a loss. ALL PUNISHMENTS NO REWARDS*****SHOULDN'T YOU ADD A HELPFUL ELEMENT TO A SHTTY SITUATION LIKE WHEN SOMEONE RANDOM FLAMES DISC AND OR DISC FROM INTERNET OR CLIENT PROBLEMS***I SEE THE NAMES Xd OUT SO I KNOW YOU KNOW SO WHY NOT COMPENSATE THE PEOPLE WHO GET SCREWED OVER IT OR DO YOU ONLY CARE IF SOMEONE SCREWS YOU OVER?***
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MustardTigerMK

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