: > [{quoted}](name=NaoWhut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=002700010000,timestamp=2019-05-13T18:08:16.110+0000) > > All of the changes you are recommending are nerfs (most notably the hunt amplification. That is a massive nerf. And guttingly so.) Except for "add spear scaling" if you mean ad scaling for spears. But then you can do the op ezreal style hybrid build and that would lead to complications. If you take away attack speed on e and give a Jayce w then you are becoming OP as fuck. Why? Nidalee's heal can be used on other champions. Imagine me giving a Diana.. vi.. vayne.. etc a Jayce W. Also, ap nidalee can chunk tanks for 1000+ damage if built right, and 1700+ on Squishies. > I believe you to be incorrect about the spear damage. Nidalee spear damage does less than 1k to tanks, in fact I would like to add that last night or the night before when I was playing Nidalee mid, I did not even do 600 damage to a tank at max range spear (and I had a void staff). When Riot added MR/LVL back to every champion, the spear only got weaker. At level 16, with no MR built a champion takes around 30-40% reduced magic damage. I encourage you to play Mid Nidalee for 20 games, so you can play vs a variety of champions. If we are going to compensate lane Nidalee, it likely will help jungle Nidalee as well. With that being said, we should figure out what we would take from Jungle Nidalee to compensate. > Not fully sure how any of these changes would help lane nidalee, nerfing nidalee doesn't make her a better later. > > Thank you again for the reply! > > Regards, > NaoWhut - nidalee main since Beta > > {{champion:76}} You're awesome! keep up the discussion.
Ok, so ... I played some nidalee top (couldn't get placed mid in the 2 games i played) and she seems pretty strong. But this message is more to show ya some more tank nukes. This time to a 199 MR beast of a trundle. It's a damn shame i didn't see the damage in fog, but likely about 1k. Clips: [1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQatmqP--8E&feature=youtu.be) [2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vegr_1JgQB8&feature=youtu.be) [3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpMm2Z5pKM8&feature=youtu.be) I look forward to branching out to Nidalee mid next! Honestly I feel like it may not be as good as Nidalee top due to the likely matchups, but I have high hopes! {{champion:76}}
: 5.1 nidalee would not be garbage in todays game. But the 2 biggest things that made 5.1 better are the reduced cast time on Q and the auto resets. Those tricks don't work in lane because you can't always be in the fog of war and most of the time the opponent is going to be in the minion wave. Yes they have always been slow but that cast time increase was a huge part of why she can't trade in lane anymore. And yea I know you can play her however you can do that with any champion but that doesn't make it viable. And it also really sucks when you want to play your favorite champion or the champion you are best at but it that champion is putting your team at a huge disadvantage and screwing over 4 other people.
So i changed my mind, Nidalee top is fine. If anything it's a strong and versatile top lane. I just played 2 games of nidalee top and i'd say she's pretty solid. If you like i could get clips of early game fights vs the trundle / akali. I was beating the akali pretty hard before i ended up hitting teleport to a minion... (I use d for flash in lane, F for flash in jungle) here is [game 1](https://i.imgur.com/2bhRHi5.png?1) and [game 2](https://i.imgur.com/usvJi6t.png?1) The AP build is definitely way better, but it's possible to go the AD build. It would just depend on your match up (though the assassin AP build is better in most every way). I could probably do the AD build better, but i've never done one of those before. Would need work Cheers, and thanks for the reply as always! {{champion:76}}
: > [{quoted}](name=NaoWhut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=002700010000,timestamp=2019-05-13T18:08:16.110+0000) > > All of the changes you are recommending are nerfs (most notably the hunt amplification. That is a massive nerf. And guttingly so.) Except for "add spear scaling" if you mean ad scaling for spears. But then you can do the op ezreal style hybrid build and that would lead to complications. If you take away attack speed on e and give a Jayce w then you are becoming OP as fuck. Why? Nidalee's heal can be used on other champions. Imagine me giving a Diana.. vi.. vayne.. etc a Jayce W. Also, ap nidalee can chunk tanks for 1000+ damage if built right, and 1700+ on Squishies. > I believe you to be incorrect about the spear damage. Nidalee spear damage does less than 1k to tanks, in fact I would like to add that last night or the night before when I was playing Nidalee mid, I did not even do 600 damage to a tank at max range spear (and I had a void staff). When Riot added MR/LVL back to every champion, the spear only got weaker. At level 16, with no MR built a champion takes around 30-40% reduced magic damage. I encourage you to play Mid Nidalee for 20 games, so you can play vs a variety of champions. If we are going to compensate lane Nidalee, it likely will help jungle Nidalee as well. With that being said, we should figure out what we would take from Jungle Nidalee to compensate. > Not fully sure how any of these changes would help lane nidalee, nerfing nidalee doesn't make her a better later. > > Thank you again for the reply! > > Regards, > NaoWhut - nidalee main since Beta > > {{champion:76}} You're awesome! keep up the discussion.
Alright, got back to my computer, pulled up a game from last night, and I've got 2 clips of me hitting tanks after I bought a void staff. Sorry i don't really aim for the tanks that much, and this is from spectator angle. I couldn't figure out how to show damage in spectator mode, but the damage is about 1200 at full HP to vlad with 90 some odd MR, and 1560+ damage to vlad below 50% (we're going a full ap spear build, so we take dark harvest). Then i hit singed with a short range spear (since i believe we currently go off distance from the throwing point it's just out of minimum range) for about 623 ish? damage. That singed had 149 MR. Could definitely hit over 1k on him with a longer range spear, but alas i don't think i ever hit him with a long range spear that game. [1500+ on 93 MR Vladimir.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHz7WprX9Bc&feature=youtu.be) [623 short range on 149 MR singed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8OHsuDeah0&feature=youtu.be) [Bonus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhmpJV0ExtY&feature=youtu.be) [Clips.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlXJEDmMMhE&feature=youtu.be) Hope you like the bonus clips! (i think i hit ezreal for 1800 at some point in this game but i can't find that moment...) Cheers {{champion:76}}
: > [{quoted}](name=NaoWhut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=002700010000,timestamp=2019-05-13T18:08:16.110+0000) > > All of the changes you are recommending are nerfs (most notably the hunt amplification. That is a massive nerf. And guttingly so.) Except for "add spear scaling" if you mean ad scaling for spears. But then you can do the op ezreal style hybrid build and that would lead to complications. If you take away attack speed on e and give a Jayce w then you are becoming OP as fuck. Why? Nidalee's heal can be used on other champions. Imagine me giving a Diana.. vi.. vayne.. etc a Jayce W. Also, ap nidalee can chunk tanks for 1000+ damage if built right, and 1700+ on Squishies. > I believe you to be incorrect about the spear damage. Nidalee spear damage does less than 1k to tanks, in fact I would like to add that last night or the night before when I was playing Nidalee mid, I did not even do 600 damage to a tank at max range spear (and I had a void staff). When Riot added MR/LVL back to every champion, the spear only got weaker. At level 16, with no MR built a champion takes around 30-40% reduced magic damage. I encourage you to play Mid Nidalee for 20 games, so you can play vs a variety of champions. If we are going to compensate lane Nidalee, it likely will help jungle Nidalee as well. With that being said, we should figure out what we would take from Jungle Nidalee to compensate. > Not fully sure how any of these changes would help lane nidalee, nerfing nidalee doesn't make her a better later. > > Thank you again for the reply! > > Regards, > NaoWhut - nidalee main since Beta > > {{champion:76}} You're awesome! keep up the discussion.
I can probably record a clip of me doing over 1k to a tank with a spear. Last night I was hitting about 1800 damage on a super squishy ezreal. The build I used was pretty troll (1200 ap build without using the item) but it worked well enough to satisfy me. I've been doing a lot of normals with friends, so im sorry if it seems like bragging when I say I hit a gold or silver player with an 1800 spear.... I really just mean that it's possible to hit that high, and I do so regularly in ranked games as well. As for mid nidalee I'm not sure how much different it would be as far as builds go... From what I see on your history you seem to build somewhat situationally with lichbane / road typically the first item. That's definitely not gonna hit as hard as a jungle build until pretty late in the game, but it gives survivability. I'll try that first n build out from there, but we will see! I'm at work still, but when I get home I'll try to find you some spear vs tank clips <3 Thanks for the reply and wish me luck in my nid mid escapades! {{champion:76}}
: > [{quoted}](name=NaoWhut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=002700000000,timestamp=2019-05-13T16:08:05.421+0000) > > Im sorry, I don't fully remember what made this 5.1 nidalee so much better in lane. Was this when nidalee jumped in the direction she was facing instead of the mouse? Was it before lock on jumping? Was it when she got +20 resistances in cougar form? Was it when her base damages we're higher, scaling lower, and the ad ratios stronger? Was this before her jump could reset? Was it the fact that her traps did max% hp damage? > Nidalee pounce went on 1sec cd upon killing a minion, but it was nerfed to just lower by 1 second because Nidalee clear in the jungle. They could bring that back and tune down pounce damage on monsters. Nidalee still had the lock on jumping, no resistances in cougar, her traps used to give 1500 vision range which was busted, traps used to lower enemy MR, AD Ratio was higher on cougar Q, but it was a bit high if you consider the hunt amplifying the damage. > 5.1 was a long time ago. Since then many changes to the game have happened that would make the 5.1 nidalee garbage in today's setting. There are new champions, new items, and stronger buffed champions with answers for the top nidalee play style. > The game has power creeped significantly, zoe has been released, there is more access to movement speed via waterwalking, relentless hunter, celerity, predator. A long time ago Riot buffed champion base movement speed and nerfed boots, the same time era before Nidalee's first rework. The spear got hit in terms of width and cast time since then as well. > However nidalee CAN be played however you want. She CAN go into any role. It's just not optimal. The same way you can go ap rengar, on hit Zoe, tank fizz etc. If you get good enough with nidalee, however, then you can play her however you want up to about diamond 4 or even 3. Some people can probably even go higher with good macro decisions. Please see my small bit about different builds if you want some ideas, those are all very fun (not always optimal, but league is a very situational game). Sometimes the best build for nidalee IS a bit tankier, or supportive, or even a split pusher - who knows! > Nidalee mids winrate has dropped below 40% in season 6 after all of the nerfs since the 5.2 change and Nidalee jungle was still pick/ban in worlds. > For landing spears in lane, you definitely can use those tricks. I know because I do them when I'm in lane with nidalee. However, later on in that paragraph I pointed out that there are better options for landing multiple skillshots. Nidalee's spear has always been a massive slow moving nuclear weapon! > Unfortunately it is no longer a nuclear weapon in it's current state. Sure, the first 15 minutes of the game it does decent damage but it does not scale anymore like it used to. > Thanks for replying, and enjoy playing nidalee! <3 > > {{champion:76}} Thanks for being constructive, we should brainstorm ways to make Nidalee better for everyone.
I'll have to play a bunch of nidalee in lanes and get back to you on that. While I have taken her into lane it's usually just to flex on people or play with a new skin. Honestly from the few times I've played her in lane I think it works alright. It's not amazing, and there are better picks, but it's still Nidalee! As for the win rate I would be willing to argue over that. Winrates are often effected by those that just decide to try the champ even if they know they'll lose, and I never pay much mind to them. I have gotten accounts to diamond with 85% winrates on nidalee (and then promptly destroyed my win rate by duoing, theory crafting poorly, and tiliting... Woops). Even the lowest win rate champs can be good champs that people just don't win with! Thank you for the polite reply, and I will see what I find! {{champion:76}}
: > [{quoted}](name=NaoWhut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=0027,timestamp=2019-05-13T15:25:26.977+0000) > > I disagree. Some of you may stop reading there, down vote, and move on... But I will continue because I love nidalee, I have loved every form of nidalee since the beginning. > I won't down vote a constructive reply. Thank you! > You want to land multiple spears? They are extremely slow moving, and the best way to land them is to throw them at an enemy that isn't looking for a spear. Throw them from weird angles in fog of war. But once one lands you will not likely land another before they can get away. Unless of course you're playing against players that are substantially below your skill level, then it doesn't matter. If you want to have to land multiple spears, then just play Jayce, ezreal, xerath etc. > I believe the spear throwing playstyle is loved by quite a few, and it being as hard as it is delivers part of the reward to the player. You feel awesome when you land an incredibly hard skillshot. I'm not going to argue that Nidalee is not rewarded for landing it, but it does feel a bit cheap being able to follow up so far upon landing it. In top lane, Nidalee can jump the distance of half the lane. If I am harassing a target, and get the hunt, they basically have to hide behind tower early. I believe there is not the same satisfaction by landing Xerath Q in comparison to Nidalee Q. > Nidalee does not have the wave clear for mid, nor the base damage, inherent tankiness, Mana costs, short range dueling power, or anti tank power for top lane. Some players are good enough to make it work on nidalee, but it is not by any means a good choice. No minor tweaks to her kit would allow this either. You want someone similar to nidalee top? Play Quinn, Vayne, Elise, Jayce, etc. > Not having the waveclear in Mid lane is part of her weakness, if you are constantly shoving Nidalee in, there is a lot less room for Nidalee to land a spear on you because the minion wave piles up and spreads out. If Nidalee is pushing, it becomes much easier for Nidalee to land spears. > What you are recommending are nerfs to nidalee. It makes no sense. Unless what you are recommending is to give nidalee back her tank stats in cougar form at the cost of her damage and mobility. Then it is just the desire to change a champion to do what you want them to do. There are already champions out there that fit that role. I advise you try them and open your mind. A top lane nidalee that goes ad and maxes heal first is like a Jayce that maxes W first. The Jayce would likely be stronger, too. > I don't think everyone is asking for Nidalee nerfs, but a power shift instead. The Hunt has too much power, maybe they could remove the damage amplification to afford to buff Nidalee in other areas to level out laning/jungling. > Nidalee has very low base damage, and if you are building her for lane you are likely not looking to win the game (even if you think you are). You are likely just looking to play nidalee in lane with no plan to end the game. You just enjoy the champion, but also enjoy lane, and that's fine. If you want to play for fun, then that's fine. But please do not try to cripple such a wonderful champion. She is an excellent jungler, and is capable of wonderful things. > Nidalee has very high base damage, that is why Nidalee's strongest point in the game is about 1-2 items and does not even 500 Damage to a 3.5k HP tank with a max range spear late game. > Use traps for vision, heal your teamtes, build weird, build fun. Rush liandrys and max W so that your traps hurt like hell. Build lich bane, hextech revolver, and duskblade so you can surprise someone with a cougar q that one shots them. Rush deathcap and mejais with dark harvest so your auto attacks do ridiculous damage to towers, your spears put enemies at 20% hp, and you heal for 700. Rush frozen gauntlet with spirit visage and a gun blade/zhonyas to duel like crazy. Go attack speed nidalee, go support nidalee, go anywhere with nidalee. Just please don't butcher the champion I have loved for thousands of games on multiple accounts since the very start. > I don't think anyone wants to butcher Nidalee, except those who never play Nidalee and hate her. The people who want change to Nidalee want suggestions to how Nidalee could be viable in the lane as well as jungle. > She's a sweet little kitty. > > Sorry if I've bothered any of you at all by disagreeing, and I'm sorry if I seemed rude at any point in my reply. Thanks for reading and have a lovely day. > > {{champion:76}} I appreciate your reply! I think maybe we could trim down the lock on pounce, remove the attack speed buff on E and replace it with something similar to Jayce W, change heal back to flat amount, remove the hunt damage amplification, add spear scaling, and then adjust numbers till her clear is healthy. I believe Nidalee's gankability would be fine as Nidalee a lot of the time when snowballing, Nialee can do all of the legwork without laner reaction as long as a long range spear was landed. Regards, Bruiser Nid, Nidalee main since Season 2.
Sorry, I'm on my phone and don't normally use the forums, so I can't quote you properly... Here goes 1.) It may "feel cheap" when you land a very slowly moving projectile(or when they step on a trap) and then have the ability to jump to your target, but if that is not the case, then you are so simply removing another playstyle (assassin) so that your style (bruiser) is weaker. While I understand you would be using this as bartering to allow for buffs in other areas I do not at all agree with the idea. It is no problem for a lane nidalee to give up a lock on long range jump because it is only useful for going in to them. However it very much impacts other nidalee play styles. It is chopping off your arm because you only use one anyway. 2.) To clarify: Nidalee's cougar form has very low base damage before 6. This is somewhat hard on nidalee jungle, but not as hard as when we didnt get cougar form until we hit 6. Nidalee also has very low base damage for short range Spears. If you are in lane landing long range Spears you either far outrank your opponent, or they just don't know what to do with a nidalee in lane. 3.) I was going to look at your profile to try and get an idea of how you're building, but you have not played at all recently. What kind of build would you be running as bruiser nidalee where you feel too powerful compared to a renekton? All of the changes you are recommending are nerfs (most notably the hunt amplification. That is a massive nerf. And guttingly so.) Except for "add spear scaling" if you mean ad scaling for spears. But then you can do the op ezreal style hybrid build and that would lead to complications. If you take away attack speed on e and give a Jayce w then you are becoming OP as fuck. Why? Nidalee's heal can be used on other champions. Imagine me giving a Diana.. vi.. vayne.. etc a Jayce W. Also, ap nidalee can chunk tanks for 1000+ damage if built right, and 1700+ on Squishies. Not fully sure how any of these changes would help lane nidalee, nerfing nidalee doesn't make her a better later. Thank you again for the reply! Regards, NaoWhut - nidalee main since Beta {{champion:76}}
: Tweaks to her that will let her lane again are making her more like her 5.1 self. We aren't trying to cripple her riot already did that. We are trying to bring her back to her true self when she was fun and had more than one way to be played viably. There is no reason riot can do some changes that let her lane again and keep her a jungler as she is now. also this "They are extremely slow moving, and the best way to land them is to throw them at an enemy that isn't looking for a spear. Throw them from weird angles in fog of war" does not work in lane.
Im sorry, I don't fully remember what made this 5.1 nidalee so much better in lane. Was this when nidalee jumped in the direction she was facing instead of the mouse? Was it before lock on jumping? Was it when she got +20 resistances in cougar form? Was it when her base damages we're higher, scaling lower, and the ad ratios stronger? Was this before her jump could reset? Was it the fact that her traps did max% hp damage? 5.1 was a long time ago. Since then many changes to the game have happened that would make the 5.1 nidalee garbage in today's setting. There are new champions, new items, and stronger buffed champions with answers for the top nidalee play style. However nidalee CAN be played however you want. She CAN go into any role. It's just not optimal. The same way you can go ap rengar, on hit Zoe, tank fizz etc. If you get good enough with nidalee, however, then you can play her however you want up to about diamond 4 or even 3. Some people can probably even go higher with good macro decisions. Please see my small bit about different builds if you want some ideas, those are all very fun (not always optimal, but league is a very situational game). Sometimes the best build for nidalee IS a bit tankier, or supportive, or even a split pusher - who knows! For landing spears in lane, you definitely can use those tricks. I know because I do them when I'm in lane with nidalee. However, later on in that paragraph I pointed out that there are better options for landing multiple skillshots. Nidalee's spear has always been a massive slow moving nuclear weapon! Thanks for replying, and enjoy playing nidalee! <3 {{champion:76}}
: Nidalee Players Want Riot To Step Up And Fix The Mess Riot Created.
I disagree. Some of you may stop reading there, down vote, and move on... But I will continue because I love nidalee, I have loved every form of nidalee since the beginning. You want to land multiple spears? They are extremely slow moving, and the best way to land them is to throw them at an enemy that isn't looking for a spear. Throw them from weird angles in fog of war. But once one lands you will not likely land another before they can get away. Unless of course you're playing against players that are substantially below your skill level, then it doesn't matter. If you want to have to land multiple spears, then just play Jayce, ezreal, xerath etc. Nidalee does not have the wave clear for mid, nor the base damage, inherent tankiness, Mana costs, short range dueling power, or anti tank power for top lane. Some players are good enough to make it work on nidalee, but it is not by any means a good choice. No minor tweaks to her kit would allow this either. You want someone similar to nidalee top? Play Quinn, Vayne, Elise, Jayce, etc. What you are recommending are nerfs to nidalee. It makes no sense. Unless what you are recommending is to give nidalee back her tank stats in cougar form at the cost of her damage and mobility. Then it is just the desire to change a champion to do what you want them to do. There are already champions out there that fit that role. I advise you try them and open your mind. A top lane nidalee that goes ad and maxes heal first is like a Jayce that maxes W first. The Jayce would likely be stronger, too. Nidalee has very low base damage, and if you are building her for lane you are likely not looking to win the game (even if you think you are). You are likely just looking to play nidalee in lane with no plan to end the game. You just enjoy the champion, but also enjoy lane, and that's fine. If you want to play for fun, then that's fine. But please do not try to cripple such a wonderful champion. She is an excellent jungler, and is capable of wonderful things. Use traps for vision, heal your teamtes, build weird, build fun. Rush liandrys and max W so that your traps hurt like hell. Build lich bane, hextech revolver, and duskblade so you can surprise someone with a cougar q that one shots them. Rush deathcap and mejais with dark harvest so your auto attacks do ridiculous damage to towers, your spears put enemies at 20% hp, and you heal for 700. Rush frozen gauntlet with spirit visage and a gun blade/zhonyas to duel like crazy. Go attack speed nidalee, go support nidalee, go anywhere with nidalee. Just please don't butcher the champion I have loved for thousands of games on multiple accounts since the very start. She's a sweet little kitty. Sorry if I've bothered any of you at all by disagreeing, and I'm sorry if I seemed rude at any point in my reply. Thanks for reading and have a lovely day. {{champion:76}}

NaoWhut

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