Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 8
Meddler: what about Nautlius? He's largely been forgotten, and he was once a mainstay at support. Could he see some help?
: {{champion:516}} is basically what {{champion:68}} used to be, in my eyes, plus you get the Masterworks. I agree that {{champion:68}} 's in a bad place and could use some love. I hardly ever see him anymore, compared to a few years ago when he was a top toplaner.
He was a viable jungle mage, too, one of the last. He even saw some pro play (he saw a couple of uses after 7.12, both losses). The 7.12 rework didn't even take Rumble jungle into account. It killed him in the jungle instantly in addition to castrating him as a top laner.
: IMO i think he should be reworked.
IMO his rework should be REVERTED. 7.12 obliterated Rumble's identity, and erased him as a viable champion. It has been an unequivocal failure. I have no idea why it hasn't gone the way of the Kog'Maw rework.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: Is that it for Rumble?
This buff is another attempted band-aid to a champion who needs fundamental changes. 7.12 gutted Rumble. Changes to make him more viable will need to address that.
: +40 (+60) damage on his Q at lvl 1 is MASSIVE.
That's totally incorrect, and it's frustrating to see non-Rumble players completely misunderstand the situation. This buff isn't anywhere near as good as it looks. It's got an extraordinarily short window of effectiveness that can easily be canceled out by a skilled opponent. Rumble rarely even trades until level three, because managing heat is difficult until then given his ten-second level-one Q cooldown. By the time you hit level four (level 2 Q), the buff has already declined by 20%. Hit level five (level 3 Q), and suddenly your danger-zone Q is doing only ten more damage per second than it was before the buff. That's nothing. Any opponent cognizant of these buffs will simply play judiciously until level five, at which point you'll essentially be the old Rumble. Playing judiciously means either not trading with you or simply exploiting his Q's 8-10 second cooldown at those level. And the more his Q cooldown goes down by means of leveling up, the less extra damage this buff does. All told, you'd better hope you bully your opponent HARD in the first six or seven minutes, else this buff is meaningless. If you get killed early, get bullied out of lane, or even simply go even with your opponent, then this buff is meaningless. In every one of those cases, you're now the pre-buff Rumble. To make matters worse, you'll rarely catch an opponent with a full three seconds of flamespitter in lane anyway, making even the damage increase at level one far less impressive. Even if opponents don't opt to play around his Q cooldown, a tremendous number of them have champion abilities that allow them to blink or dash away. If opponents agreeably stand in place and allow you to roast them, then the early damage will be nice. But that's not going to happen. This nerf entirely barks up the wrong tree. 7.12 gutted Rumble. Any changes to make him more viable will need to address that.
: Rumble is getting a +40 in his Q damage at rank 1, that is a pretty big number jump and is going to make his early trades pretty strong.
That's totally incorrect, and it's frustrating to see non-Rumble players completely misunderstand the situation. This buff isn't anywhere near as good as it looks. It's got an extraordinarily short window of effectiveness that can easily be canceled out by a skilled opponent. Rumble rarely even trades until level three, because managing heat is difficult until then given his ten-second level-one Q cooldown. By the time you hit level four (level 2 Q), the buff has already declined by 20%. Hit level five (level 3 Q), and suddenly your danger-zone Q is doing only ten more damage per second than it was before the buff. That's nothing. Any opponent cognizant of these buffs will simply play judiciously until level five, at which point you'll essentially be the old Rumble. Playing judiciously means either not trading with you or simply exploiting his Q's 8-10 second cooldown at those level. And the more his Q cooldown goes down by means of leveling up, the less extra damage this buff does. All told, you'd better hope you bully your opponent HARD in the first six or seven minutes, else this buff is meaningless. If you get killed early, get bullied out of lane, or even simply go even with your opponent, then this buff is meaningless. In every one of those cases, you're now the pre-buff Rumble. To make matters worse, you'll rarely catch an opponent with a full three seconds of flamespitter in lane anyway, making even the damage increase at level one far less impressive. Even if opponents don't opt to play around his Q cooldown, a tremendous number of them have champion abilities that allow them to blink or dash away. If opponents agreeably stand in place and allow you to roast them, then the early damage will be nice. But that's not going to happen. This nerf entirely barks up the wrong tree. 7.12 gutted Rumble. Any changes to make him more viable will need to address that.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: I mean, compared to what we were given in the last cycle and how Riot usually approaches Rumble this is probably one of the better things that we can get lol, and again, I keep stating everywhere that while this is good, it's not good enough. I guess we'll have to wait for the next patch to see how things play out.
IMO it's simply very bad rather than totally awful as the previous PBE changes were. It's an improvement, but it's a small one. And the fact that Riot thinks this is more appropriate change makes me nervous.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: Maybe I should reiterate what I wanted to say with this post: It's a good change so long as there's some reasonable follow up to it or the values are not set in stone. Minion damage scaling with rank a very good idea if you ask me and there's no denying that it can certainly serve as a foundation for Rumble's further balancing (if Rumble's early waveclear is too oppressive it can be lowered at earlier ranks but also rescale to preserve its high value at later ranks), and while certainly purely adding damage isn't a good way to go about things, at least this time you can see that the problem was acknowledged. Adding 15 across all ranks was just a lazy fix, whereas this +40/30/20/10/0 damage clearly emphasizes the intent to improve Rumble's laning phase by making his Q more punishing if you get to keep your opponent inside of it. And of course, it's a good ***foundation***, a good ***basis***, by no means do I think that this is ready to ship to live and everyone will love it, Rumble still needs some sort of a reliable way to keep his enemies in that Q in the early game given his lack of mobility and his E requiring ranks put into it to start slowing for some good amount, and he's still fairly squishy (though it can be offset by Resolve tree quite easily but that's a completely different thing and doesn't change the fact that Rumble by himself is very weak in this regard). To put it straight, unless there's some additional buff to Rumble's W/E/Base stats I'll go back to whining about how terrible Riot's balancing team is (since what I've noticed people like it much more when I'm pissed)
I think it's a minor buff altogether. Sure, 40 extra damage is nice. But any lane opponent who is aware of this buff can easily adjust to it by not trading until level four, when the actual buff is halved. Given that Rumble struggles to trade before level three anyway due to issues with heat management, that makes the window of effectiveness of this buff exceedingly short. And given that that damage only applies in full in the rare circumstance that the opponent doesn't simply leave your Q before its total duration is up, it's even less impactful. Given that any MR can effectively cancel it out, it may as well not exist in certain scenarios. It won't make him much stronger. I'm a major advocate of Rumble jungle and, ironically, this helps him out in the jungle more than it does in top lane; and it doesn't help all that much there, given that his primary issue in the jungle is early Q cooldown and the consequent heat management issues. I don't see how this solves any of Rumble's problems at all. If Riot were to make the changes necessary to raise him to a viable state, it'd be among the most minor of those.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: 3/21 PBE Rumble changes (+ runes): Something I can get behind, but...
I strongly agree that this is a good buff. Here are the issues * First and foremost, it's nothing but numbers buffs. Rumble's issues since 7.12 haven't been numbers, they've been that he's super clunky and has a predictable and very spaced-out trading pattern in top lane, and awful clears in the jungle due to 10-second Q. Oh, and EVERYONE hates the Q heat changes. Those were ostensibly meant to make what remains a very high skill-cap champion easier for beginners, which was odd; and in the event, they've seemingly done nothing but continue to anger longtime players and make him a less effective champion. * This buff overall does very little. It's a medium buff to early Q damage that falls off as the game goes on, so essentially your best bet is now to all-in repeatedly early on. Even then, this is a "meh" amount of damage every ten seconds, and ONLY if your enemy stands in your flamespitter for the entire time. If they're smart, they can simply wait out your flamespitter and then attack you in the massive engage window that's left. And then this buff does precisely jack for you. * It doesn't address Rumble's fundamental issue: he cannot bully lane. Again, this remains the product of 7.12 changes. Riot had some issue with him being a lane bully, when in fact this was his identity. He had counterplay. It was just difficult, as it should be for lane bullies. Now he's got a massively predictable and avoidable window of engage early on, and that makes him easy to deal with. If he can't bully lane, he can't get his massively expensive core items that are necessary in order for him to reach his mid-game power spike. * Maybe this is irrelevant to some, but Rumble is still dead in the jungle. He was slain in 7.12 out of hand. He was collateral damage. That sucks. He was a fun jungler, and one of the last mages still playable there. I'd like to see him brought back. This does nothing to help.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: 3/9 PBE Rumble changes: Still fine...-ish, still completely missing the mark. (+ a request to Riot)
I've been playing League for three years. Rumble was my favorite champion. And then 7.12 gutted him. I've barely been able to play him since. He was once a champion effective in the right hands, very rewarding of skillful play, tons of fun to master and tons of fun to play as. 7.12 ended that. That's been the almost universal sentiment among the Rumble mains I've polled. The loss of DFT and the recent AP item rework were simply nails in his coffin. I loved playing Rumble in both roles, particularly jungle. Please, please, just revert the 7.12 changes and give us the old Rumble back. And then approach balancing from there. 7.12 was a failed rework. It killed the champion, both in terms of fun and in terms of effectiveness. Band-aids won't make a difference.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: Rumble "buffs" are fine, but it's not what he needs. @RiotWittrock
Rumble's issue is really not the damage on his ultimate. It's that he's an auto-lose against most opponents in top lane and against almost everyone in the jungle. That's a consequence in large part of the long cooldown on his Q, but also his lack of a viable keystone and the hit he took from the itemization rework. If Rumble cannot power his way into the mid-game power spike he once enjoyed, his value will remain impaired, and--given his tremendous reliance upon items--his ultimate still won't be all that strong anyway. AP scaling is of limited use when you don't have the AP items you need, and an extra 10-40 damage per second won't make much difference of its own accord. It's even less useful given the marked mobility creep in the game. His ultimate isn't all that useful against champions who can simply ability their way out of it. That's a particular problem in top lane, given the huge number of champions who can cleanse the slow and/or dash/blink out of its zone of effect. This looks like a big buff upon first glance, but as a Rumble player I feel like it entirely misses the point. It doesn't address the root of his problems.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: What ever the Rumble changes may be, please don't make them number-only changes
Just revert his Q cooldown. Rumble was fine as he was before.
: I'm really really glad that you guys didn't forget about Rumble. I've got about 3k Rumble games on my back, but even I am currently struggling winning games with him. {{champion:68}} What I would like to see: - Give him back initial damage on his ult (many times you don't even get an assist, even though you landed your ult directly onto the enemy). With the many dashes we have nowadays, other champs can easily dash out of your ult, so a little bit of initial damage is needed. - Reduce Q CD at early levels. I really liked playing Rumble jungle, but since the Q cd at lvl 1 was nerfed from 6 to 10 seconds, it was almost impossible to clear your jungle fast enough to compete with other champs. - Increase his shield duration back to 2 seconds. Rumble isn't tanky at all, compared to other bruisers. He needs some survivability and his shield is his only option. I think it's only fair to increase the duration or atleast buff the numbers a little bit.
I was a dedicated Rumble jungle main before 7.12. That patch destroyed him as a jungler. I do not see why this was necessary. Rumble was not a problem champion in either role; he did not merit such drastic changes.
: > any buffs to Rumble planned? Actually yes. Hopefully 8.6. Not sure what the direction the buffs will be. Waiting for the investigation to get going.
Please revert the 7.12 changes. They have been entirely damaging in the top lane and absolutely ruinous in the jungle. It's the only way I see to return him to relevance in BOTH roles. Rumble wasn't a problem to begin with, and the changes just haven't worked out; they've severely demoted him in relevance and viability, and made him less fun to play. You guys reverted your Kog'Maw rework. For the sake of Rumble mains and others who simply enjoy playing him, please consider doing the same for the Mechanized Menace.
: @Repertoir any buffs to Rumble planned?
Please PLEASE revert the 7.12 nerfs! These made Rumble FAR less fun to play, far less rewarding of mechanical mastery of the champion, far harder to play in lane, and killed him off entirely from the jungle. Rumble has always been a champion with a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling. Since 7.12, he's simply been weak. That rework changed everything about him, and none of it for the better; the only players it benefited were those who simply hated playing against Rumble. Please, just revert those changes and we'll be golden! > what if we reduce rumble's ult cast time from 0.5 to 0.25 second? I have never found issue with the cast time of Rumble's ult. With a bit of time in the practice tool, it is not difficult to hit. This buff will not help him. His issues lie entirely elsewhere.
Rioter Comments
: People think League is in it's worst state ever...
Riot is obliterating jungle play. I don't see why it's necessary or how it will improve the game.
yin (NA)
: Jungle Plants...?
Well, let's see: the plants spawn randomly, thereby making it impossible to play around them, and also creating the potential for players to be screwed over by pure randomness. I don't see how implementing them is an improvement.
: They don't need too though. Those buffs are used to help early clears opening up the jg pool. the transition to wolves and raptors mid to late is b/c you need all the extra vision due to stealth wards removal @ the point of the game when vision is most important.
The way things currently are, EVERY champion can be used in the jungle; clears are just too healthy now. No role is meant to be open to every champion.
Dengeden (EUW)
: So you're fine with the jungle being about who has the fastest clear?
How do plants have any bearing upon this?
: See, the main problem is that the playerbase doesn't trust Riot to pull them if they flop even after all the changes. There seems to be a heavy emphasis on "Sunken cost fallacy" when it comes to many of the decisions Riot makes. The major worry players have is that _even if plants are a failure, they'll be pushed to live beyond the preseason_. I have a wait-and-see attitude about this but if Riot makes the same mistake, no amount of working on plants could really fix things.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwMsBp6f,comment-id=00340005,timestamp=2016-10-25T00:04:55.652+0000) > > See, the main problem is that the playerbase doesn't trust Riot to pull them if they flop even after all the changes. > > There seems to be a heavy emphasis on "Sunken cost fallacy" when it comes to many of the decisions Riot makes. The major worry players have is that _even if plants are a failure, they'll be pushed to live beyond the preseason_. I have a wait-and-see attitude about this but if Riot makes the same mistake, no amount of working on plants could really fix things. Agreed. I fear that even a near-universal, very vocal dislike of the jungle changes would not induce Riot to remove them.
: To be fair, that took the combined efforts of every Riven main to tell Riot that it would break her at higher elo and ruin her for lower elo.
> [{quoted}](name=AngusBoomPants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwMsBp6f,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2016-10-24T15:33:51.289+0000) > > To be fair, that took the combined efforts of every Riven main to tell Riot that it would break her at higher elo and ruin her for lower elo. Perhaps the combined efforts of experienced players can convince Riot that they'll be severely damaging play in the jungle.
: The PBE is not a testing ground for positive or negative feedback. It's a bug finder. There have been instances where Riot has changed certain numbers or added features to a rework after getting feedback, but this is a huge coding change. No way they're going to just scrap it.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwMsBp6f,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-10-24T05:48:36.684+0000) > > The PBE is not a testing ground for positive or negative feedback. It's a bug finder. Not true.
Meddler (NA)
: I read through that Reddit thread yesterday. It's got a lot of strong sentiment in it that's valuable feedback. It's pretty light on discussion from in game experience with plants though (few actual PBE testers commenting), so it’s not a complete picture. As with the other pre-season changes on the PBE plants are a work in progress. We’ve got some changes coming this week that should address a number of issues that have become apparent since the last set of changes (which occured just before PBE last week). Key details on those below. We’re also working on some backup plans for other possible issues that have been raised. For those sort of cases we want to have follow up plans ready in case they’re needed, but don’t want to make changes before things have been validated in game. Summary of those below too. The biggest concern about plants themselves we've seen expressed overall is that they're random and that randomness has no place in a competitive game. Can fully understand the concern there, given randomness can make for pretty miserable experiences in game at the expense of player skill. We don’t think randomness is automatically a bad thing in a competitive setting though. We see it as more a tool that, if used in the right way, can create good tests of skill and emergent play or, if used badly, can nullify skill and create a ‘that was bullshit’ feeling. Examples of what we feel falls into each of those two categories: . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ** Controlled Randomness in LoL at present we think is good for the game: ** * Elemental Dragons Heavily telegraphed, rewards that support different strategies and counter them, system creates healthy game to game variety of experience. Equally available to both teams. * Kindred passive on enemy jungle camps Creates a series of risk/reward trade offs for the Kindred player that they’re free to engage with or not. Enemies can choose to try and counter or not. * Scuttle crab’s exact location You know roughly where Scuttle will be, and what the reward will be, but not the exact location it’ll be before getting there (assuming it’s up in the first place). Again, also equally available to both teams - it's a fair system, rather than one that biases in one direction or the other. * Draven axe landing location There's some randomness to where an axe could land forcing an adaptive responsive. Possible locations are from a limited pool and, when appropriate are effectively non random (e.g. when chasing) . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ** Randomness in LoL we think is or was bad for the game: ** * Low % crit rates (higher % crit rates are also heavily debated, though a less clear argument) Small amounts of crit (runes in particular) have a small chance to skew a lane pretty strongly without any engaging gameplay. Crit’s much less problematic once champions have a moderate amount of it (becomes consistent ish), though even then there are arguments it should be removed. Avoiding getting into details of that since that’s a different topic and this is already a long post already. Should talk more about it sometime though, especially since it’s a subject we need a better consensus on internally too. Regarding crit runes, we’ll be removing the ability to start the game with crit when we do work on runes (hopefully sometime next year) * Old Phage Chance to slow on hit (mini, unreliable Frozen Mallet for anyone that didn’t play back then). Sometimes really lethal, sometimes completely ineffective. Did have some counterplay (e.g. only flash if the slow procs), overall though too much a case of randomness deciding situations rather than creating decisions. . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ** Next iteration base off feedback from PBE testers and internal playtesting: ** * Fewer Blast Cone locations We’ve been testing a pretty wide variety of Blast Cone locations recently, especially compared to early iterations of plants which only had a few. Conclusion there’s that some of those locations are good fits, others feel more abusive than interesting though and the large number of possible spawn points makes it hard to predict likely Blast Cone locations resulting in a more random than intended result. * Limit of 2 Blast Cones per quadrant When it happens 3 Blast Cones in a single jungle quadrant has been resulting in too much Blast Cone chaining, given the proximity between them that creates. Chained Blast Cones are much harder to respond to and the second use seems to be less deliberate by the user as well. * Seedling time to 60s (from 30s) Increasing telegraph time on upcoming plants to improve ability to plan around their presence. * Reduced overall plant spawn rates Plant frequency has been too high in the version of the system currently on PBE, resulting in more frequent interactions than intended and therefore a greater overall impact on the game than desired. We’ll be reducing frequency of plant spawn a bit as a result. * Visual Polish On the art side there’s also still some stuff yet to come (minimap icons that are clear but less dominant, icons for individual plants when clicked on, etc) . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ** Other concerns we're tracking and preparing follow up changes if needed: ** * Ranged versus melee discrepancy We haven’t seen it demonstrated yet, but it’s definitely possible plants will be too advantageous for ranged champs over melee. Fallback if needed’s to make them operate like Thresh lantern where it’s proximity to plant the allows interaction, not basic attack. * Randomness deciding outcomes, We want randomness to create a range of situations where player decisions and execution can then decide the outcome. If randomness is instead deciding situations however we’ll then want to add additional telegraphing, both to spawn times and locations until players are able to recall possible plant locations and play around the possibility of them being up in an informed manner. * Plant interactions still too frequent Upcoming changes might still leave plants too influential to the game and place too high an interaction burdern on players, junglers especially. Response there would be to continue to adjust spawn rate, maximum number possible per quadrant. Apologies for the wall of text, lot to cover. I’ve to run off to a thing now, I’ll be back later though to post a bit more.
I don't think people are looking for adjustments. The response to the actual implementation of plants has been almost universally negative thus far, as has been that to the removal of smite bonuses. Adjusting plants isn't going to change that, and I think that focusing upon doing so entails implicitly ignoring what people are saying: that they very strongly dislike the the overall changes. As I said above: the sentiment I'm getting from Riot is, "We'll refine the jungle changes, but no matter how the playerbase feels about them, refinements are all you'll get." In other words, no amount of negative opinion about the smite buff changes or the introduction of plants is going to change either of those. I think it's a damned shame if that's the case. Please clarify.
darkdill (NA)
: @Meddler: It seems a large majority of testers are hating the new jungle plants system in PBE
The impression I've gotten: there's no way that the introduction of plants or the removal of smite bonuses will be reverted, regardless of the fact that almost everyone who has spoken up seems to dislike (or outright despise) them both. That sucks. The only rationale we've gotten is that these changes will make the jungle more accessible for an unspecified group of inexperienced players. ALL of us were inexperienced players once. It took me a day to understand the jungle. It is not rocket science. And these changes take away from those of us who DO play a lot. Why punish those you know play the game regularly, in an effort to make the jungle temporarily simpler for those who might take it up in the future?
Rioter Comments
: PETITION TO KEEP ITEM SETS
Agreed. PLEASE do not take away my item sets.
Rioter Comments
Nerouin (NA)
: Rumble's Current Problems
Another thought, having played Rumble today: the minion collision/pathing changes have had a dreadful impact upon Rumble. Said changes have made it far, far harder for him to navigate while keeping his flamespitter in proper position.
: Rumble does seem to have landed in a weird place right now. I hope he doesn't fall into that category of never used champions. Right now I would limit using until you can confirm that you're against Malphite, Nasus, & Jax. All of which I see fairly commonly. Hopefully they touch upon Rumble when they touch up the mages since he does deal AP based damage.
I laned against a Nasus last night. I could no longer melt him as I had regularly in season five. I got four kills to his three, and he outfarmed me.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: Honestly all he needs is a bit more optimal build path (current Zhonya's cost is a joke) and perhaps going back to his roots of early game AP fighter/lane bully by slightly increasing the shield value and/or Q/overheat attacks damage. He never was too problematic so I don't see how these changes would put him overboard. I'm just hoping that Riot has similar point of view and won't let CertainlyT rework him into some weird duo-jungler with overly long tooltips and complicated mechanics that take away all his power budget.
I don't see much danger of him getting reworked into silliness; he's already a very unique champion. That said, ya, something needs to change. He became an underpowered pick in season five when they nerfed his ultimate, and now he's almost entirely non-viable.
Ryùuzaki (EUW)
: Champion Mastery LvL 7
I'd really, really hate to see that overly lengthy level seven emote spammed in game.
Bombardox (EUW)
: Riot how many time have we to suggest this ?
I found three bans just fine until the juggernaut update. The outrageous imbalance to the game brought about by that patch was evident in the fact that the four juggernauts immediately became mandatory bans. The reworks of Fiora and Gangplank, both of which (as is usual for Riot's reworks) vastly overpowered their respective champions, made those two round out the general six. In my experience, the two teams, rather tellingly, generally cooperated to ban all six. It was naturally a shame, though, that some ill-advised buffs had produced a roster of necessary bans, thus removing the capacity to ban strategically; it was now either ban those champions or be faced with a disproportionately powerful champion on the enemy team---or, perhaps to have one of those champions on your team, and watch he or she run away with the game to an extent that removed all challenge. Sadly, the changes in preseason have produced an even more broken champion pool. Now there are far too many overpowered champions to ban. All one may do is hope that none of those are picked by the other team (or, if you're me, by my own team). Now the lobby heads must simply ban those overpowered champs that they consider most dangerous. There is, therefore, even less space to make strategic bans than existed before preseason. It's a shame, really.
: Why Do You Play Beginner Bots?
I generally only play bot games if I'm trying out a new champion or if I want my first win of the day bonus immediately (as opposed to playing a PvP game for it and possibly losing). Occasionally I'll play against beginner bots, but as they lack even the semblance of a challenge, I most often opt for intermediate; this way, they at least slightly resemble humans rather than harmless infants.
Rioter Comments

Nerouin

Level 74 (NA)
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