: > [{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eqIwF4RA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-27T16:41:25.930+0000) > > I mean, how else would you compare champions/builds? Utility - For example, Severum gives more utility in an AP build vs an AD build because it offers bonus movement speed. I would say the other main benefit that comes from an AP build is that he gains more safety. Even with the bonus range from Calibrum, you still need to be pretty close to your target in order to deal sustained damage through basic attacks because that is really his main source of damage. With an AP build, it isn't as important that you hit enemies with basic attacks because your damage comes from abilities which generally have a longer range than their corresponding basic attack, .. or once again, provide more utility. You could also argue that a build might offer more durability. Theoretically, {{item:3071}} +{{item:3153}} + {{item:3065}} + Severum would give him a lot of healing. Another build might allow him to drop his target faster, if he doesn't get one-shot. This would allow him to stay in the fight longer. Depending on the situation, this might be a better build than one where he would simply deal more damage. I would grant you that the situation in which this would be "better" would be less common. That is sort of my point here though. People tend to stick to one theory of what is good and aren't very creative. Personally, being creative with champions / items is what makes this game fun.
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eqIwF4RA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-27T16:56:43.831+0000) > > Utility - For example, Severum gives more utility in an AP build vs an AD build because it offers bonus movement speed. > > I would say the other main benefit that comes from an AP build is that he gains more safety. Even with the bonus range from Calibrum, you still need to be pretty close to your target in order to deal sustained damage through basic attacks because that is really his main source of damage. With an AP build, it isn't as important that you hit enemies with basic attacks because your damage comes from abilities which generally have a longer range than their corresponding basic attack, .. or once again, provide more utility. > > You could also argue that a build might offer more durability. Theoretically, {{item:3071}} +{{item:3153}} + {{item:3065}} + Severum would give him a lot of healing. Another build might allow him to drop his target faster, if he doesn't get one-shot. This would allow him to stay in the fight longer. Depending on the situation, this might be a better build than one where he would simply deal more damage. > > I would grant you that the situation in which this would be "better" would be less common. That is sort of my point here though. People tend to stick to one theory of what is good and aren't very creative. Personally, being creative with champions / items is what makes this game fun. That's fine. If that's what you find fun, have at it. But "good" and "bad" are generally used in a competitive sense. We judge "good" and "bad" by comparing a character or build to other characters/builds with a similar role. If a character doesn't fulfill their role as efficiently as something similar, it isn't good. I have a friend that insists on playing Azir support. It can work; that doesn't make it good, because other champions can do the same thing Azir can in the support role, only more efficiently. It's strictly worse than other options. That makes it "bad". Perhaps Aphelios can get enough utility to justify an AP build, but if he isn't as efficient as another utility character, he's still going to be bad in that role, no matter how you play him. Again, I get that everyone has a different sense of fun. And no particular way of having fun is more or less valid. I've dealt with this in Magic: The Gathering all the time. Some people just want to play what they want to play because they have fun by coming up with unique ideas, or the enjoy making big plays. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is, those things aren't the same as being good competitively. If it were, the people that want to win the most would play that way. That isn't to say people playing off meta builds aren't important to the game. They are the ones that innovate and discover new builds that are actually optimal. But if that's what you like, you have to accept that more often than not, your off-meta build isn't going to be as good as something else. And I get that it doesn't feel good when someone tells you that something you enjoy isn't "good". But what is "good" or "bad" shouldn't matter as much as what you enjoy. There is no shame in liking something that is less than optimal. You just can't expect people that want to win the most to tell you that something is good if it's not actually that good.
: To a hammer, everything is a nail
>. A champion / build isn't any good if there is another build that deals more damage I mean, how else would you compare champions/builds?
MoePhat (NA)
: Why is Riot not doing anything about the blatant cheaters in this game?
Mradr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQXuAf2d,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-19T13:43:54.596+0000) > > Think about what you're saying. It isn't an either/or thing. She gets even more vision in addition to warding. Think about what you are saying - what about every other game that doesn't have an Ashe? Ashe isn't a key unit to make all games winable and good warding will carry a lane more than an E alone will. The fact that other champs are just fine in bot - mid - top lane with a good place ward and a little bit communication can go a long way over a single E will carry. Information wise, a good place ward is more key than a random shot E just from the fact you could remove Ashe and play any other ADC in there. Keep in mind, other champs do have escapes, roots, stuns, etc for in-place of that skill. Even if she does use her E - keep in mind its only for 5 seconds - so you would kind of have to know something is coming in a direction - while a ward is 150 seconds.
Again, you're thinking about it wrong. Yes, you can win with just basic warding. You can also win without hard CC. That doesn't mean CC abilities are useless. If used correctly, they help you win, the same way Ashe's E does. Yes, her hawkshot only gives you 5 seconds of vision, but you don't need it to provide continuous vision. You use it to fill in gaps in your vision. And there will always be gaps in your vision, because not only is it impossible to have enough wards down to cover the entire map, but your opponents can (and should) destroy your wards as well. A well placed hawkshot can give vision on several camps. It doesn't matter if you actually spot the enemy jungler, because you can infer where they are going to be on the map, based on which camps have been cleared and which haven't. Also, don't forget that dropping a ward is a very short range action. To drop a ward in a bush you have to get close enough for the enemy to engage on you. Ashe allows you to get vision of an area from anywhere on the map, and forgo facechecking brush. The additional vision provided by Ashe's E just works well within her role as a utility ADC. Other champions have other abilities because of the role they are supposed to fill. Having hawkshot on Vayne would be useless, because she's a single target, late game scaling damage dealer and while additional vision is very powerful (even if it is hidden power), it wouldn't help Vayne fulfill her role. But Ashe is not Vayne, and you don't play her if you need a late game hyper-carry. You play her for the overall utility she provides, while still being able to function as a ranged DPS source.
Mradr (NA)
: Well I mean you could argue a good ward placement gives just as much of that information as her E does. I mean that is one of the reason why there is another thread about how Riot is removing more vision for higher elo reason.
Think about what you're saying. It isn't an either/or thing. She gets even more vision in addition to warding.
JoshTGW (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qTGE78iA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-18T05:23:21.507+0000) > > Some people say some really stupid things. I won't deny that's true, but this kinda holds merit that she will have a fairly substantial ban rate.
Yes. But Kass at his worst had like a 90% ban rate. Senna isn't going to approach anything like that. Substantial, sure. But anyone that says she'll be banned as much as Kass at his worst just doesn't know what they are talking about.
JoshTGW (NA)
: Suggestion for How to Properly Change Senna (In my Opinion)
>Some even said she'll be banned just as much as Kassadin when he was broken. Some people say some really stupid things.
Sneakeh (EUNE)
: That's what they want us to believe, they couldn't figure out how to make it work so they deleted it... There is no way this matchmaking is calculated and "fair"
Whatever you want to tell yourself friend.
Sneakeh (EUNE)
: they just removed them
No they didn't. They just hid it, and gave us ranks. But ranks don't actually effect matchmaking; that's based on your MMR.
: an assassin is made to take out high priority targets. having one start off in the bot lane where the priority target farms up is already bad, but thing is assassins are made to have high damage and mobility but if they make a mistake their kit prevents them from coming back. if you want to punish an early game oriented assasin, you must either wait for them to fall off, group up heavily or abuse them early to make sure they cant be useful. but a champion with a hook, an aoe stun and a refreshable AOE teamwide execute that grants bonus gold is just never going to be useless. at no point is pyke going to fall off. his strengths are the early-mid and lategame where he gets kill pressure starting level 2, roams for global pressure after {{item:3117}} and gets to be an insane teamfighter.
I'm not claiming Pyke isn't overloaded, nor am I claiming Pyke is healthy for the game. I'm pointing out why he has those things in his kit: It's to fulfill his role as a support. The more I've thought about it, the more I believe Pyke is well designed for a support assassin character. He checks all the boxes and their solutions to make him work in both roles are actually kind of clever. The real problem is the very concept of a support assassin. It just shouldn't exist. It's a terrible combination that's inherently unhealthy, and a prime example of the pitfalls designing something just to say you've done it.
Horızen (NA)
: Why does everyone think compensation buffs are necessary?
Your example doesn't work. You've set up a straw-man. Nerfing and buffing characters are much more complex than simply adding and subtracting "power".
Kovie (EUNE)
: It just makes no sense...Assassins are supposed to be high damage, mobile, CC-less. But lately they have it all, like Pyke who has a hook and a stun, and qiyana with q stun and r.
Yes, but Pyke has a hook and stun because he's a _support_ assassin. Without them, he's just an assassin.
Raoul (EUW)
: Remember back when URF was new, had no meta and everyone just played whacky stuff for fun?
>Remember back when URF was new, had no meta and everyone just played whacky stuff for fun? No.
: ***
Well that went straight over your head, didn't it?
: I didn't know those 4 were botlaners. Must be hard to deal with them for their entire laning phase.
The other three aren't, but Yas does show up botlane.
: Are you okay?
: Yasuo Broken in URF.
So what? Half the characters in the game are broken in URF. THAT'S THE POINT OF URF.
: Don't have Elemental rift dragons change the map
Just. Stop. The map does not change so radically that it will have a large influence either way. Does Rengar become slightly better with the 5 extra bushes that will pop up? Sure. Is it enough to radically alter his power level? NO. Will Hecarim get slightly stronger with extra movement speed? Yeah. But he also gets slightly stronger with the current Cloud Drake bonus, but A) Nobody complains about him getting stronger with the current Cloud Drake buff, B) You don't have to fight him in the jungle and C) His stats can be adjusted. None of that is a problem, and likely will not have a massive impact in 99% of games. It only affects the dragon pit and the area around the buffs. That's it. Nothing in lane. Nothing in the jungle as a whole. And it's not like the changes aren't something you can play around. If the enemy team has a Rengar, you just play around it in exactly the same manner that you do now, just in slightly different areas. If the enemy team has a ton of AOE and the Mountain Drake creates new choke points, DON'T FIGHT IN THE CHOKE POINTS. This will add in a few tactical wrinkles you have to play around, but it will not radically alter how you play the game.
: With extra bushes? Extra choke points? Choke points removed? MS buffs throughout the jungle? You think this is going to have a minimal impact on the game?
Yes. I think like 4 more bushes are not going to break the game. Neither will a few more choke points in the jungle. And the impact of the MS speed buffs in the jungle are going to depend on how much MS they provide. I'm guessing it won't be any more significant than the Cloud Drake bonus, which people barely notice. Think about it... how much of the game do you actually spend in the jungle? Well, assuming you aren't playing a jungler.
: Please Show Us Which Order Drakes Will Spawn In During Champ Select Next Season.
I think you're dramatically overestimating the impact this is going to have on the game.
: your saying this to me without seeing anything the other party had said to ME. You dont think they were trying to appease they're ego? i bet they stroke they're EGO when reporting people, reporting people should be a necessary thing not an insensitive thing because you dislike X player when evidence on the rift showcases YOU were at fault but this report system only judges and looks at words so im the villain here
I have no doubt they were just trying to appease their ego. What difference does that make? It doesn't make you less wrong; it just makes them wrong as well.
: You believe that is a healthy course of actions when your teammates are making they're own actions that fiddle with your LP? i cannot report someone for being bad at the game.
That's what you sign up for when you play a multi-player team game with complete strangers. Calling your teammates trash doesn't do anything other than appease your own ego. You really think those players don't know they are getting shit on in game? They know it; you know it; everyone else in the game knows it. So what exactly gets accomplished by calling them out?
wolvius (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=maayonmaayan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LQAEEnFx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-16T08:53:16.602+0000) > > Because things like Level 3 {{champion:35}} ganking bot lane when bot duo are Level 1 happens. Well that's being nerfed next patch by boxes duration 60 > 40 seconds. Nerfing jungle xp more and more just leads to permaganking as leaching xp from lanes could nearly put you ahead of a farming jungler.
But aren't they nerfing shared experience?
Sylaelque (EUW)
: They should nerf red side as well or buff blue side and make it equal for both sides because this jungle meta is forcing everyone to start on red side for lead which makes them very predictable. Unequal jungle sides also giving huge advantage to Blue Team due red side's closeness to bot lane. I don't have problem with jungle exp because my lvl usually same with mid laner and a bit higher than bot lane.
They said they were addressing this.
: > [{quoted}](name=Charmy Bird,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ecndyxYi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-16T02:20:12.854+0000) > > They're a company they're not stupid. They're owned by a huge Chinese company they have the resources to pull it off don't worry. That's not very related to what I said, but anyway, I distinctly recall that complaints about balance or art or whatever and "hire more people" being met with a claim that money can't resolve these issues because there just aren't enough talented people out there. I guess they found enough talented people by a factor of several... enough to make multiple new games.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ecndyxYi,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-16T02:24:30.919+0000) > > That's not very related to what I said, but anyway, I distinctly recall that complaints about balance or art or whatever and "hire more people" being met with a claim that money can't resolve these issues because there just aren't enough talented people out there. I guess they found enough talented people by a factor of several... enough to make multiple new games. It's not that money can't solve issues, it's just that there's a point at which extra bodies do not actually increase productivity effectively. If your problem isn't with output (like with balancing the game), adding more people to the team isn't necessarily going to fix the issue, and can in fact make your problems worse.
: Riot, you should have done an IPO instead of selling out to Tencent.
Stop fooling yourself, it was never about love of the game, and will never be about love of the game. It doesn't matter who owns Riot.
Sukishoo (NA)
: {{champion:103}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:517}} not assassins.
Hold on, hold on, hold on. In what world is Leblanc not an assassin?
: Leblanc's wave clear fucking sucks.
That could be because most mages/casters/etc. aren't hyper-moblie assassins.
: Genuine Question: Fair Game vs Fun Game - Which do you prefer?
I think that's a hell of a false dichotomy you've presented there, but if forced to choose between the two, I'd choose fun. Why would I waste my time on a game I didn't find to be fun?
HiT 3m Up97 (EUNE)
: Nerf Evelyn and Ilaoil Rito
>I dont want to weste all gold on pink wards And this is where I can't take this seriously. First, it's not a waste if it keeps you alive. Second, it's 75 gold. 150 if you want to buy two. What else are you doing with a random 75 gold after buying items? Third, YOU SHOULD BE BUYING PINK WARDS ANYWAY, EVEN IF YOU AREN'T PLAYING AGAINST EVE.
: I'm Bad at math and I'm taking Calc 2...tips??
You can't be that bad, you made it through the math you need to get to calc 2.
: The reason a slower meta will always be better for viewership over a fast meta
This is just inaccurate. Length of game has nothing to do with how punished players are for making mistakes. It's very possible to have an average game length of 45+ minutes, and have it all decided by one early mistake. It's in that situation that players will play the most boring, risk-averse game they can.
: You just dont get it because smurfs skip bronze by winning placements so you never see them ;)
So let me get this straight. You're upset about smurfs in plat+? You're mad that diamond players are playing in plat, thus ruining your chances of reaching diamond where you would lose to those players anyway and promptly drop back down to platinum? Okay.
: No thats like telling Christiano Ronaldo to fuck off, if he uses a fake name and shows up to collegiate level soccer games every week just to smash in as many goals as possible and ruin the game for everyone. It would be cool once, it would get super annoying after the 10th or 100th time.
I guess we ought to ban college athletes that are talented enough to play at a professional level as well. Wouldn't want people playing against someone better than them.
: Does smurfing ruin low elo game
Sit back, take a second, and realize that you want to punish someone for being better at the game than you.
: This is why your game remains a competitive joke compared to Dota. A design philosophy and a playerbase that thinks like this.
Oh no, the game I play for fun isn't hyper-competitive. Whatever will I do?
Danyoja (NA)
: I don't agree with the champions don't need to be viable/new players need someone they can pick up and play. If the game does get any new players than it's because they watched a short/promo video and they want to play those character probably with those skins. Also new players will probably play with a friend and if they do pick up the game solo they will look around and ask around about champs. Once they know that X champ isn't good in the long run what is the point of learning that champion if you can't play they at all levels (i.e. feels like a waste of time you might as well play another character you want or looks interesting). I don't think every character needs to be dominate at all levels, but they should still have a niche they can preform at all levels (whether counter pick/comp/or strat) and still be effectively played at least at a role at all levels.
But they don't. At no point in League's history have all the champions been viable in high level play. It just isn't necessary for the game to be successful. Not every player is interested in playing at a high level. Some people connect to champions based on look, or theme, or a game play style. It matters less to them that they are "good", and are still willing to play those champions. And most people (at least in my experience) don't stick with the one champion they started playing with. Garen was one of my first champions. I don't play him anymore, but that's okay. The time I spent playing him wasn't a waste because League is a complex game, and having Garen be as simple as, "Spin to win", helped me focus on learning the game as a whole because I wasn't trying to learn how the character worked best at the same time. The game needs champions like that or it won't be able to get new players to stick around long enough to get invested. I'm not against Garen getting a rework. If Riot figures something out for him that works, it's fine with me. My point is that Riot likely isn't prioritizing a rework right now, because Garen is meeting the expectations they have for him as a character.
Moody P (NA)
: This Garen rework sucks
Is it possible that Garen is left in the state he's in because he is simple? The game needs simple champions; it doesn't need every champion to be viable at high levels. New players need some champions that they can just pick up and play.
: I hate you Riot.
What's an ohmwrecker?
iTommi (NA)
: I got elo boosted
This is too stupid to be real, right?
lukasdim (NA)
: Bots in literally every mode as level 60...
They do ban bots. They just do it in waves.
: So what do I do against pyke + cait as tahm kench support?
qko pate (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VsNZdbae,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-13T13:07:21.114+0000) > > The actual fact of the matter is that **at no ELO has Vayne top ever been good**. > > A few months ago it managed to hit a 51% winrate...with about 2% of Vayne's average pickrate. Not a 2% pickrate, **2% of Vayne's pickrate**. As in 2% of the times Vayne was picked she was taken toplane. > > Even when she was at a fucking 54% winrate botlane she still had a sub-50 winrate top. ***AT ALL TIERS***. > > This is not a silver thing. This is a literally everywhere on every server at every rank thing. Ima explain why this is happening. cuz ranged toplane players are ussually clueless monkeys.. and im talking to you like its a fact cuz it is..
If that's fact, then we can have this discussion when toplane players get good. Until then, it's still a terrible pick if you aren't smurfing 3 divisions below your main.
: Gone with the Wind is the greatest movie ever made
They do still make those films. They just aren't the big summer blockbusters that everyone pays attention to.
: I appreciate that you are kinda the first person to comment with the actual dps view style of this is how a dps centric view is, without just saying "This is dumb" so thank you for that. Just because healing is good doesn't mean it should be a less important aspect of the game. I like to view at as three different play style for champs in general; DPS: You kill people! Loads of ways to do it, pick your favorite! Tank: Get in there lock important people down and give your team a chance. Support: Make sure your team does better at not dying and killing people. There are shield peeps, vision peeps, healers, buffers in general etc. For the purpose of this post i have focused on the healers since they typically just heal and have some very minor cc/damage that pretty much means nothing. Because of how the game works out tanks and support kinda revolve around dps because they are kind of the get stuff done champs. Now let's put grievous wounds into something that fits the other roles and let's see how frustrating it gets. DPS: There is an item for 800 gp that says while this champion is in a fight you are also in, you deal 40% less damage. Not just to them, but anyone they are near. Tank: There is an item for 800 gp that says while this champion is in a fight you are also in, you take 40% more damage. Not just from the person with the item, but their team as well. Grievous wounds doesn't just affect the damage you deal being harder to heal, but your team's damage as well, for 4 seconds after they stop being attacked by you. The only other item in the game that has close to an effect like this is {{item:3001}} which makes people take 15% more magic damage, and is a tank item. Now grievous wounds if it fell more into support type items rather than dps that would actually be a great mechanic since you are helping your team in the killing faster, still oppressive but it makes it so the support needs to be in a fight as well. A vayne with grievous wounds going into a soraka and their adc instantly makes the fight 1.6 v 1 rather than 2v1 as it probably should be. No other items or effect in the game block a character's effectiveness with no counter play to the extent of this. And it's not just the fact it does this, but that it can be bought for so cheap as well, and be put on a fairly constant effect such as auto attacks. There is 0 counter play for this.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I'm actually fan of healing characters. I was just trying to explain why RIOT isn't interested in making healing more effective. They think that having healing be less efficient results in a gain to overall fun in the game. Whether it actually is or isn't, that's what Riot believes. I suppose I should have been clearer on that.
: Team Fight Tactis: this new update?!?!?!??
Yes, all the old school TFT players from 2 months ago.
: at least 86% of the player base would prefer to play the game in a different state
: What kind of stupidly used statistic is that? A late game scaling champion should not have a near-50% winrate in games under 15 mins. She's a late game anti tank champ, and tanks are late game champs as well, so why would she do even vaguely well early? She's a squishy scaling champ. This is an example of Vayne being strong, to say the least, when a late game squishy can still do pretty well when one team is snowballing hard, especially when most early snowball champs are assassins or other heavy burst champs, all of which counter Vayne early. Unless those statistics are HEAVILY skewed by feeding and AFK's there's no way she should have a 45% WR in games under 15 mins.
Why shouldn't she? It is actually possible to drag a late game champ to an early victory.
Manxxom (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=EvilUnicornLord,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=yIahRI2q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-11T03:12:45.981+0000) > > Bruh, dis League boards. Not MH boards. Imagine... If Rajang was a champion.
League is definitely missing a large purple champion with horns.
: Can We Have A Support Item That Clears Grievous Wounds?
The problem is, in combat healing is considered a negative play pattern. It's frustrating for players to dump all their damage onto a target only to be countered by the enemy Soraka negating a large portion of their damage. They want healing to happen out of combat because while it may undo what you accomplished in a trade, it doesn't fully prevent a target from getting burst down if they get appropriately caught. Giving healers a way of ignoring grievous wounds would mean they'd have to nerf their healing to the point of being a non-factor in all situations.
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Nik Nikerson

Level 124 (NA)
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