: Quality of Life Update across the board
: Garen R bug
: http://na.op.gg/champion/garen/statistics/top http://www.champion.gg/champion/Garen/Top?league= http://na.op.gg/champion/darius/statistics/top http://www.champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top?league= ??????? no they have had about the same for quite a while (since the 7.2 nerf). If you are referring to low elo then yeah I guess but I said in my original comment I was referring to plat+ which is not a 50%. What I was asking was if there was any plans for compensation buffs, not straight buffs but rather buffs that fixes problems that Darius is struggling now that runes fixed. Good example being an attack speed buff (he never received any for the preseason update), they did this for Shen(who also used AS runes).
I'm probably a bit biased because I'm diamond and Darius has been much stronger in higher brackets also for 59 out of 60 months. Who knows maybe it's different in Plat I haven't played there for a while.
Rioter Comments
: On beyond the rift (and mentioned in this post as well) you mentioned possible buffs for champions who are heavily underperforming with the lack of runes (which basically were band aids for certain champs). Any ETA of when a hotfix/buff patch would come out? A champ I find is severely under performing is Darius, a lot of Darius' problems were fixed with runes over the years even with the constant nerfs after his rework (specifically AS runes and AD runes made things ok). With the lack of the runes he has now stumbled into a below a 48% winrate in even plat elo. Whilest his counter part Garen has a better winrate (which is depressing lol).
qq. Darius has had a better winrate than Garen for like 59 out of the last 60 months.
Rioter Comments
FIREHIVE (EUNE)
: Queue system.
Just play Soraka and heal people ^:)
: Why no S? pt. 2
Your CS was kinda low, and also getting 0 or 1 kills helps a lot for getting an S on Garen. Just continue to play well and eventually your S will come.
: Hello good sir @Meddler Very happy that I finally read about Garen, I was asking many times (and got no answer :( ). Really grateful that, while you acknowledge that he needs larger gameplay changes and the window to show skill on the champ is very small or not even there, you give him some love in the meantime cause he is really struggling. Glad to see tenacity back on Courage, nice thought, the removal of it was one of the (many) things that hurt him, he needs to be able to absorb CC (instead of just punishment) for his team or himself if he gets gangbanged by 3+ opponents. The slow resist + tenacity mastery doesn't give much and it's a common denominator. Since you're experimenting with Courage, I'd like to ask, what's the thought process behind the resistances he gets from the passive part having a cap? Sion has no cap, Nasus has no cap, Veigar has no cap, Bard has no cap etc Why Garen only must have a cap? I don't think it's that OP and game-breaking, especially since it comes in small (and lame) doses of 0,25 per creep kill and I think it would help him a lot, especially in games that drag and he has completed his build. Excited to see what else you have in store for him. Imho, E and R can remain as is or mostly as is (maybe give the ult AD scaling at long last? Or reduced cd if he successfully executes the Villain?) while passive, Q and W (which seems to be getting at a good spot) can be looked at since they leave much room for work. For example, with Warmog's, everyone can get a free Garen passive at maximum efficiency right off the bat (the requirement is easier now). Hopefully, he'll be able to compete with others with "overloaded" kits (he's only viable top, maybe jungle too but not that good, and others could easily bully him out of lane or just straight kill, like release Camille was a nightmare to face and she could be played literally EVERYWHERE). Enjoy the 4th of July vacation :)
Try Garen mid, it's actually not bad, although it messes up a lot of comps
: I do agree that these changes are a step in the right direction, but "This is exactly what Garen needs" sounds like an exaggeration, don't you think? :) The W change sure increases Garen's ceiling, but it doesn't solve most of the outstanding issues that Garen has, such as the lack of in-combat sustain, or the lack of interactivity in a lot of melee match-ups due to E being an uninterruptible AoE that you HAVE to get in range of if you want to fight Garen as a melee. And since all of that are just straight buffs without compensation, isn't it too much? Was Garen really in such a bad state? I'm a bit afraid of rebound nerfs...
How to win a trade vs Garen as a Melee Bruiser Step 1: Turn on your AA steroid. Step 2: Walk up to him, facetank his spin, and beat his ass
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 23
Wait why nerf BC? Which champions are OP with it? Lucian and Graves? Why not just make it half effective for Ranged? No melee champions really abuse BC, and in fact the item is designed for melee AD Casters. This would hurt a lot of AD casters who are reasonably balanced right now such as Renekton, and it would hurt AD Casters such as Garen or Wukong who are quite weak in the current meta.
: who the fuck came up with this idea? the entire reason cleaver passive works with a stack mechanic without internal cooldown is, to benefit physical damage casters like {{champion:122}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:58}} who can stack it up faster than auto attack reliant ranged carries who would be limited by their attack speed. adding an internal cooldown does completely the opposite of the intent with the item. whats more is, which bruisers exactly are a problem with the current version of cleaver right now? please point me to them. because the only ones who have been problematic with cleaver in recent times were fucking **ranged carries**. so how about cutting the bullshit and dancing around the issue and make the item finally melee only? or at least half effective for ranged champions?
I agree, half shred for ranged BOOM problem solved.
: the only one who will be kiting is the adc... their front line is gonna be right there and someone will probably be diving the back line, either the top or mid laner
: u dont need gap closers in teamfights... theyre all fighting you so there wont be a problem getting to them.
: the duration goes up with rank. 2 seconds of % damage reduction -> 6 seconds of damage reduction
yup CD goes down too. @ 40% CDR, 50% uptime on 30% DR is pretty nice.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 16
Hey Meddler, Any thoughts on Garen? He's been struggling for a while, and with the champion.gg data coming out, he's having his worst patch ever so far. Both his win rate and pick rate have been steadily falling, this patch he has a 46.2% Win Rate, and a 1.1% Pick Rate. As usual, Garen is the worst champion in the game in Diamond+ according to LoLalytics as well. Do you have any plans to address this? Thanks!
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 13
Please don't forget about Garen, especially when you're changing Black Cleaver! He's already in a pretty bad spot right now, and nerfing his signature item, or making it an assassin-only item will put him in an even worse spot!
: Intellectual dishonnesty irritates me. Also why focus on early levels ? It gives garen a good utility in late game.
Well, there's a couple of reasons early game is so important. First off, only about 1/3 of games go past 30 minutes, so there quite often ISN'T any late game, which makes late game scaling poingless. Second, in this meta, lane priority is incredibly important, and it becomes more and more important the higher on the ladder you climb. In lower brackets, toplane is pretty much a 1v1 deathmatch that continues until one of the junglers shows up and interrupts it, since there's so much fighting early on, the stronger early game champion is likely to gain a significant advantage and get fed off his lane opponent. At higher brackets, a losing top lane matchup used to be able to play somewhat passively and try to scale into the midgame, but these days, good toplaners will work with their junglers to invade and control the enemy jungler, force skirmishes, set up dives, or even just show up and take the tower. With the addition of jungle plants, reduced access to wards, and jungle camps being much more valuable to steal, having early power lets you take over the enemy jungle and the game. On top of jungle pressure, champions with strong early games can control the minion waves to get an exp and farm advantage, and set up timing windows for getting free recalls or making plays in the early game.
: > [{quoted}](name=SummonersFowl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NK6azMj2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-12T17:19:06.168+0000) > > New players need simple characters to play to start. Simple. Garen is also not in line for any type of update there are simple beginner champions who have 1 tricks in masters. {{champion:19}} is riots beginner jungler right now, and is viable into challenger. garen as a champion has never ever made it that far. almost throughout his existence, he capped out around d5. this isnt a problem with him just being simple. his kit just doesnt WORK in its state.
Don't forget about other 450 IP champs that are in and out of professional play {{champion:22}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:13}}
: > E - Very little damage for several levels. You're basically free farm for most melee champions in the lane phase - see above. Did you ignore the 25% armor debuff on purpose, making you dishonnest and not worth reading, or didnt you know, making you an ignorant and thus making your argument pointless ?
25% Armor Shred in the early levels is pretty negligible. It's only about 8-10 armor gone. It also takes 4 ticks to stack, and since you only start out with 5 ticks, only the last tick does extra damage. The base damage is also quite low compared to other mid-damage bruisers such as Riven, Jax, or Fiora. The only advantage is you can use it while moving and not drawing minion aggro. Also, ad hominem arguments tend to also be pointless. Please refrain from using them.
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T18:22:35.561+0000) > > Wait a minute. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you using your cooldowns wrong? > > {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:240}} all have basic abilities that let you reliably disengage Garen. Aatrox can only Q away or E for slow, however if you Q away, his Q has a lower CD than yours (Personally I max Q last, and I think most Aatrox's do too), which means he gets to zone you for the duration of his Q, and then when his comes up and yours doesn't. Dissengaging with a dash is just really unfavorable because it means you've avoided Garen for now, but you won't be able to go near minions until Garen's Q runs out, and then until your own dash comes back up. You spend more time zoned than not. And while dissengaging with a dash is alright later on, it makes your trading ability really, really, shit, because most people don't have the ability (gapclosers or damage) to go back in while Garen's Q/E is down. Camille's E is also super unreliable and has a long CD. I don't get how Darius does, but Garen should be the one worrying about dissengaging from Darius, not the other way around. He belongs in stat/skillcheck catagory. > {{champion:120}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:5}} have ults that let you disengage reliably. Yeah, doesn't work in lane. > {{champion:68}} can disengage with is ult, but has to be out of position for Garen to do anything to him. Like in lane? > {{champion:36}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:83}} are basically stat checks so yeah they're defenseless if Garen is ahead. Yorick has wall. > {{champion:157}} should be building PD first, which means Garen can't do anything to him in a 1v1 unless he builds {{item:3142}} . Yasuo is destroyed by Garen most of the time... Silence fucks him over hard. He gets a chance at lvl 6-7, but after Garen outscales and becomes too tanky to kill without R, and Silence means getting a knock up is incredibly difficult. > {{champion:23}} has spin and can also build {{item:3153}} {{item:3087}} which lets him chase or disengage. If you spin away, you can't do anything to him.
A lot of the lane phase is trying to decide whether you can win a trade or not. Which means you either trade, or run away, not both. >Aatrox can only Q away or E for slow {{champion:266}} basically has complete priority on Garen, and Garen should never be able to farm properly, because if they trade and both get chunked to half, Aatrox regens up to full. If Aatrox gets behind things get messy but he shouldn't in the first place. You just mentioned TWO ways Aatrox can escape. If Aatrox is ahead, Garen has no way to escape. So you see the discrepancy in mobility, which makes Aatrox a powerful counter to Garen. {{champion:164}} just takes a little practice, and proper positioning near a wall, then she'll always have an escape. {{champion:122}} can always disengage Garen by pulling him in. For some idiotic reason Darius has not only a pull but also a knockup, which he can use to set up his W and Q, then avoid half the spin (or if Garen's not already spinning he wins the trade for free) {{champion:120}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:5}} are junglers, not laners. They shouldn't be expected to be viable in lane if they're balanced around jungling. Usually when a champion is strong in both the lane and the jungle it means they're overtuned. {{champion:68}} can escape with his ult if he's caught and out of position. Otherwise he can just use his shield and harpoons to never be in danger if he spaces correctly. > {{champion:157}} is destroyed by Garen most of the time... Silence fucks him over hard. He gets a chance at lvl 6-7, but after Garen outscales and becomes too tanky to kill without R, and Silence means getting a knock up is incredibly difficult. Yasuo can kill himself on Garen if he's dumb but most of the time should be poking with his Q, unless he sees a trade he can win even while silenced. Garen gets a chance to snowball on Yasuo right before he gets PD but after that, Garen should never be able to take a fight Yasuo doesn't want to take. > {{champion:23}} If you spin away, you can't do anything to him. Yes, and he can't do anything to you either. We're talking about being able to run away from Garen. Remember, again, if Trynd is stronger, he can use his items to run Garen down too. I looked up your profile. I don't want to be mean or condescending, but if you understood how spacing and trading worked, you wouldn't be where you are now. A lot of the things you are trying to argue just simply aren't correct, and are based on flawed play by both players. Sometimes your arguments are valid theoretically but would never occur given realistic and optimized itemization between the two players. I hope I helped you understand something about mechanics, itemization, and scaling. If there's a Garen that's beating you solo, take it as an opportunity to learn and correct your spacing/itemization etc, and try not to get frustrated by it (I know Garen can be a frustrating champion to play against). Good luck in your games.
: Can people start acting like a power budget exists?
Riot has a nasty habit of keeping ~5 champs broken tier, ~20 champs much stronger than the rest, keeping another ~50 viable, while leaving the remainder in the dumpster. This trend seems even stronger these days than it used to be. Unless you just spam whatever is FoTM, this often makes the game annoying to play at best, and frustrating and downright un-fun at worst.
Zerenza (NA)
: Absolutely Sick of Getting Counterpicked.(NaCl Warning)
Riven counters Garen if you know how to play her well. You have more range than he does so you should win every trade. However most Rivens below Diamond don't really use spacing correctly, which is why many low ELO Rivens think Garen counters her. I agree on the Pantheon point though. Who plays Pantheon in norms, come on...
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=0001000200010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-03T23:22:48.871+0000) > > Which is precisely why we are discussing whether Garen is a juggernaut at all. > > Garen can liquify a squishy but then he can't do anything after that until his cooldowns are back up. Which makes him more like Renekton than Darius. Is Renekton a juggernaut? No. He's tanky, and bursty, yet he's classified as a fighter, because Renekton doesn't deal significant damage against durable targets. But... many fighters do have significant damage against durable targets, or at least the sustain to outduel them. Also, Renekton's damage against tanks isn't bad either - his cooldowns aren't super long, he can shred armor with E and Cleaver, his R does sustained magic damage, and he gets to abuse his passive due to a long fight giving him time to get multiple Fury empowered abilities off, not to mention he gets to abuse his doubled fury generation below half health, because he'll spend more time below half health when otherwise he'd be bursted down by the time he got there. > Juggernauts generally feature sustained DPS, which Garen does not have. Most do, however Juggernauts as a class have nothing to do with 'sustained DPS'. They're just incredibly powerful, tanky, low mobility and range champions. They aren't catagorized into DPS - Illaoi for example is far more burst based (she also doesn't do super well into tanks because of her lack of armor pen). There's burst and dps based Divers as well - Xin and Irelia are DPS based, J4 and Heca burst. There's just much bigger of a difference for juggernauts because they tend to have so much damage that they can burst squishies with their DPS (although you will see a big difference between burst Shyv and DPS Shyv), but Garen usually does it much faster or more reliably.
> But... many fighters do have significant damage against durable targets, or at least the sustain to outduel them. Also, Renekton's damage against tanks isn't bad either - his cooldowns aren't super long, he can shred armor with E and Cleaver, his R does sustained magic damage, and he gets to abuse his passive due to a long fight giving him time to get multiple Fury empowered abilities off, not to mention he gets to abuse his doubled fury generation below half health, because he'll spend more time below half health when otherwise he'd be bursted down by the time he got there. Exactly. Renekton does everything Garen does but better, with the exception of ulting the Villain. Which is why Renekton is viable and Garen is not. So Garen's somewhere between a fighter that can't fight, a juggernaut that can't threaten more than one opponent, an assassin that can't close the gap or escape, and a tank that can't peel. He does a little of everything but not a lot of anything in particular, which is why he's so good in low ELO but so useless in high ELO. > Most do, however Juggernauts as a class have nothing to do with 'sustained DPS'. They're just incredibly powerful, tanky, low mobility and range champions. I'm not sure how Riot's design team defines the term but when I think of juggernauts they're something that can threaten an entire team if not peeled properly. Illaoi and Darius are basically melee 'control mages' in that they deny an area. Shyvanna has a ton of sustained DPS on the other hand. Personally I think the term 'juggernaut' has unfortunately become a bit of a catch-all for fighter-type champs that don't fit into other categories.
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-03T23:33:15.304+0000) > > 4.5 out of 6 seconds. The silence lasts for 1.5 seconds. Less if you have tenacity. Many champions also have long duration stuns, which are much stronger than silence since you can't move or attack either. > > What melee skirmishers DON'T have an ability that can peel Garen? Illaoi's the only one I can think of. Maybe Wukong, not sure if the Q follows Wukong or hits the clone. In either case neither of those champs are meta. Sion, Malphite, Kench, and Zac but now we're talking about tanks who don't really care about silence. Some of the other juggernauts I suppose, most of which are not meta either. Buffering hard CC is very common, and probably necessary, for a meta skirmisher these days. {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:59}} (unless W slow is enough){{champion:121}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:2}} A lot don't, actually. EDIT: Misread. {{champion:157}} {{champion:23}} I'm not sure exactly who is a skirmisher, but these don't.
Wait a minute. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you using your cooldowns wrong? {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:240}} all have basic abilities that let you reliably disengage Garen. {{champion:120}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:5}} have ults that let you disengage reliably. {{champion:68}} can disengage with is ult, but has to be out of position for Garen to do anything to him. {{champion:36}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:83}} are basically stat checks so yeah they're defenseless if Garen is ahead. {{champion:157}} should be building PD first, which means Garen can't do anything to him in a 1v1 unless he builds {{item:3142}} . {{champion:23}} has spin and can also build {{item:3153}} {{item:3087}} which lets him chase or disengage. If you don't understand why any of these have disengage, please let me know and I will break it down mechanically for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-02T03:02:34.805+0000) > > Q's cooldown is fine. The problem is that the slow cleanse and the speed steroid are on the same ability. > > This means Garen usually has to hold his Q and try to close the gap without speeding himself up. If he tries to Q to close the gap, he'll get slowed, and when the Q wears off he's left without his only CC or his primary nuke. I never said it was broken, I just said it's low. I'll admit, it's kinda necessary for his damage, but it's very frustrating only being able to use your abilities for 2 out of 6 seconds. It also makes him a hell of a ton harder to kite for melee skirmishers, because no access to abilities means no access to dashes and CC, and as a squishy skirmisher, he can nearly oneshot you in a single combo. Now, most skirmishers do have a way around that (Riven's W+E can be casted during Garen's Q animation, both shielding the damage and getting her far enough away that none of Garen's E will hit, Fiora's Riposte), but those who don't are fucked pretty hard.
> 2 out of 6 seconds 4.5 out of 6 seconds. The silence lasts for 1.5 seconds. Less if you have tenacity. Many champions also have long duration stuns, which are much stronger than silence since you can't move or attack either. > Now, most skirmishers do have a way around that (Riven's W+E can be casted during Garen's Q animation, both shielding the damage and getting her far enough away that none of Garen's E will hit, Fiora's Riposte), but those who don't are fucked pretty hard. What melee skirmishers DON'T have an ability that can peel Garen? Illaoi's the only one I can think of. Maybe Wukong, not sure if the Q follows Wukong or hits the clone. In either case neither of those champs are meta. Sion, Malphite, Kench, and Zac but now we're talking about tanks who don't really care about silence. Some of the other juggernauts I suppose, most of which are not meta either. Buffering hard CC is very common, and probably necessary, for a meta skirmisher these days.
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=00010002000100000001,timestamp=2017-06-02T03:06:10.543+0000) > > Absolutely agree. Garen's burst is pretty decent but his sustained DPS is complete garbage, comparable to bona fide tanks unless he actually builds damage. The whole idea behind a Juggernaut is something that can liquefy anything that stands next to them for too long. Well, Garen liquifies squishies a lot faster than other juggernauts, for example he's faster than Darius. He also has very strong utility if he manages to reach his target.
Which is precisely why we are discussing whether Garen is a juggernaut at all. Garen can liquify a squishy but then he can't do anything after that until his cooldowns are back up. Which makes him more like Renekton than Darius. Is Renekton a juggernaut? No. He's tanky, and bursty, yet he's classified as a fighter, because Renekton doesn't deal significant damage against durable targets. Juggernauts generally feature sustained DPS, which Garen does not have.
: Garen ult also can't miss
Eh it's often possible to dodge Garen's ult with an invincibility frame/heal/etc. The animation is quite long and it's also very predictable.
Croanin (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TheSpiritWalker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2017-06-01T18:50:18.613+0000) > > Of all those champs Garen technically has the most mobility and best chance of hitting the back line. Not that he does the best damage, but his damage is more consistent getting there. Yorick Morde and Illaoi are never touching a back line unless they seriously mess up That's kind of my point though. I rarely have problems getting to the backline unless I'm peeled, and can kill a carry in 1 combo. But his inability to duel anything that builds some defense makes his status as a Juggernaut questionable, and I don't think he should have been changed at all since he used to do that job better. A 2.5 second silence is an eternity for a carry, not to mention he was faster, they might as well be rooted.
> But his inability to duel anything that builds some defense makes his status as a Juggernaut questionable Absolutely agree. Garen's burst is pretty decent but his sustained DPS is complete garbage, comparable to bona fide tanks unless he actually builds damage. The whole idea behind a Juggernaut is something that can liquefy anything that stands next to them for too long.
: > [{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqpEPOcI,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-06-01T18:33:56.755+0000) > > he doesn't do great sustained damage, CDs are too high and his autos are piddly > > no it isn't, juggernauts have a hard time getting close to people. they do not and should not have a problem keeping up Q has a really low CD friend...
Q's cooldown is fine. The problem is that the slow cleanse and the speed steroid are on the same ability. This means Garen usually has to hold his Q and try to close the gap without speeding himself up. If he tries to Q to close the gap, he'll get slowed, and when the Q wears off he's left without his only CC or his primary nuke.
: Huge Tank? Check Tons of Damage? Check Low Mobility? Check He's a juggernaut. His damage is bursty but with Black cleaver he also shreds 55 percent of your Total Armor making him do great sustained damage as well. he just has a hard time staying on top of people, which is what juggernauts should have a problem with.
43% Armor Shred. Shred stacks multiplicatively. 1.0 x .76 x .75 = .57 (57% Armor Remaining) 1.0 - .57 = .43 (43% Shred) > Huge Tank? Check Garen's not nearly as durable as a bona fide tank, although he is among the tankiest bruisers (Darius is arguably tankier). Tanks get insane durability from their CC, in addition to their items. They can CC a DPS source to turn off the DPS for 2-3 seconds. They've got multiple stuns or knockups to do this. Real tanks also have access to CoC and other shields/heals which give a ton of health in combat. Think Maokai, Gragas, Poppy, or Galio. Garen doesn't have any of that, he just gets 30% damage reduction and decent flat resists. > Tons of Damage? Check Against the villain, sure. Against everyone else his damage is nothing to write home about. > Low Mobility? Check Garen is the only champion in the game without a dash/blink, a movement impairing CC, or a speed steroid greater than 50%. So definitely yeah. It's probably not a coincidence that the champ with the lowest movement utility is also the weakest champ in the game. (http://lolalytics.com/champion/Garen/)
: Garen builds better as an assassin, since they felt the need to nerf his Q mobility and Silence duration during his rework you basically have a 1.5 second window to get anything done in a teamfight. Then you look busy. Darius heals, deals better sustained damage, and has better CC and stickiness then Garen, all while having a stranger laning phase and late game. Not much point to playing him really.
I think Garen has to build situationally, to try to make the most out of his limited kit. Some games he's supposed to build tanky, other games he's supposed to run mostly damage. It depends completely on matchups, team comps, and also who gets ahead/behind. Building Garen is actually pretty tricky since you have to be so reactive to the situation. There's probably a dozen Garen builds that he can use depending on the situation. I can think of 9, ranging from complete tank to almost full damage. Also I think Garen has a lot more in common with Renekton than he does with Darius, at least in teamfights/skirmishes. Darius is high sustained damage which can threaten to ace a team with resets. Garen can't do that. Both Garen and Renekton want to dive a vulnerable target and blow them up, then serve as a bulky frontline for their team afterward. In laning I'd say Garen has the most in common with Nasus: Some idiot that gets hit in the face for 15 minutes hoping to reach the midgame without feeding or his team losing despite the enemy jungler having complete control over the top side of the map because your toplaner is a minion for the first 9 levels of the game.
: He destroys irelia though...
eh only if Irelia doesn't play correctly.
: I stopped playing Garen after true damage dealing champions started to dominate toplane : {{champion:114}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:67}} . He is good at nothing other then the satisfying ultimate. He cant catch people because everyone and their mother got rocket in their arse and they can fly/dash around the map with no cd while Garen has to wait for his nerfed Q to reach anyone. Maybe Garen should get a movement speed boost while in his E. (the longer he spins the faster he gets). or another stupid idea his spin could create a vacum that draws in nearby enemies after 2-3 second has passed. Another idea he should be immune to CC while using his Q.
> He cant catch people because everyone and their mother got rocket in their arse and they can fly/dash around the map with no cd while Garen has to wait for his nerfed Q to reach anyone. Pretty much sums it up. Mobility Creep is real. Check out RG changes on S@20 though. If those go live it'll be so damn core on Garen.
Rioter Comments
higura (EUW)
: > Maximum 50 summoners are used per region with a minimum of Diamond V and 50 games played on Garen to be elegible. im not claming garen does well at higher level of play. > garen is by far not in the worst position atm, he does what he is ment to do and he does it well enough to allow new players to get a feel for top lane juggernaut without being punished too hard for mistakes. he is ment to allow newer players to get used to top lane. all his abilitys are easy to understand and use, he is manaless, tanky and got a passiv that heals him overtime. all of these are great for a new player thats just trying to learn the game. he got a place in league, thats more than i can say about some other champions in need of a rework.
So what are you trying to say? Should Garen NEVER be allowed to be viable in High ELO, no matter what happens? Because Garen's been CONSISTENTLY at the bottom of the Diamond tier list probably for almost half a year, ever since his brief comeback with his last buff. Before then he would have been dead last for at least a year and a half. Out of all 136 champions in the game, should the ONLY one allowed to NEVER be viable be Garen?
higura (EUW)
: > Maximum 50 summoners are used per region with a minimum of Diamond V and 50 games played on Garen to be elegible. im not claming garen does well at higher level of play. > garen is by far not in the worst position atm, he does what he is ment to do and he does it well enough to allow new players to get a feel for top lane juggernaut without being punished too hard for mistakes. he is ment to allow newer players to get used to top lane. all his abilitys are easy to understand and use, he is manaless, tanky and got a passiv that heals him overtime. all of these are great for a new player thats just trying to learn the game. he got a place in league, thats more than i can say about some other champions in need of a rework.
Being in the PvP tutorial (Pre-30 and Low ELO) is not the same as having a place in League. Even in Bronze he isn't particularly strong, having a 49% Winrate. Garen's abilities are basically the OPPOSITE of how you should learn League, which is managing mana, and sustaining in combat. Garen just teaches newer players not to use Trading Stance.
higura (EUW)
: there are many other champions that is in more need of a rework than garen ( {{champion:10}} just to thow out a exsample) also i don't get this arguement at all: > he needs to be built on and expanded, given tools to succeed with the fair chance for enemies to defeat him instead of it being a toss-up on whether he can get in range or do absolutely nothing he is a Juggernaut, thats what the class does to quote riot: > Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility. link: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses so even if riot were to give him a rework would he still work that way... i would also like to add garen have been updated/reworked multible times over the years, last updated doing the juggernaut update, so the whole "2009 design" nonsense is just wrong. garen is by far not in the worst position atm, he does what he is ment to do and he does it well enough to allow new players to get a feel for top lane juggernaut without being punished too hard for mistakes.
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Garen/ He's the 2nd worst champion in the game today which is unusually high. Usually he's dead last.
korg023 (EUNE)
: Its very hard to balance champion that is tanky,deals damage,and has no costs at all to his abilities. When you look at other champions for example {{champion:92}} she has no costs on abilities but is forced to build squishy in order to deal damage. {{champion:36}} He has no mana costs but his abilities cost health,{{champion:266}} His abilities also cost health (some of them) . So as you can see,being manaless and also having no costs at all has to make some sacrifices. Garen being balanced is that he is easily kited and his damage falls off if you build full tank.
Mana isn't really a thing anymore. Most tanks just rush 3 Doran's so they basically get infinite mana, a bunch of durability, AND a bunch of damage. Renekton, Rengar, and Rumble all have no mana costs, and are often toward the top of the tier lists.
: Tldr Im not understanding. The point if reworks is to make an invalid champ valid. Garen is still a valid champ. Unlike urgot, nunu, eve, ect.
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Garen/ He's up to 135th best champion today. Usually he's dead last 136/136 (Diamond+).
: How would you modernize garen without hurting his validity as a learner champion?
A very, very simple fix would be cleaning up his auto animations by moving up their damage frames to make them closer to other Juggernauts/AD Casters. Darius for example has a pretty nice auto animation. They could also fix the bug where Garen stops if he's chasing someone with Q active.
: Most of the champions I used to love playing are very outdated in design and have multiple issues that prevent them from competing in the meta at high levels... {{champion:86}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:63}} I would love to see any of them be played by pros (I know Brand has been seen a few times past season as support). On topic tough Garen really need to be updated so he's not just a worse version of {{champion:122}}.
What are you talking about? Pantheon is top tier in SoloQ, and he is often in the meta. And while Singed and Brand aren't particularly strong, and Teemo is a little on the weak side, all three of those champions are massively more viable than Garen. http://lolalytics.com/champions/
: Well, we must not see the same threads, then. I remember Meddler mentioning they wanted to improve Garen but had currently no good idea on how to it, and I haven't seen any of the reactions you talk about in response to him. I remember Critmaster Garen proposing many times to give Garen some in-combat sustain mechanic in exchange of trimming down some of his free, reliable power. I recall various threads trying to analyze why Garen is so binary exactly (and so what needs to change for a good rework). If some discussion about Garen is being shut down, somehow it's shut-down so hard that I don't even have time to notice it's happening in the first place...
There's a LOT of Garen hate on Boards. There's a lot more low ELO Riven mains triggered by Garen's existence than there are Garen players in total, and they tend to raid the boards and downvote to silence discussion. How many times have you seen the "5000 HP ONE SHOTS ME FK THIS BROKEN CHAMP" rant on boards?
Thilmer (EUW)
: I really hate that argument. Warwick is supposed to be a jungler for beginners, and Soraka is supposed to be a support for beginners, and both received massive reworks. Rigth now some champs of 450 pi have an absurdly high skillfloor.
Ashe is a beginner ADC too, and she's often top tier.
: Just being super tanky isn't enough to be useful anymore, unfortunately. You also need to actually do things. There's a reason Mundo is shit tier whenever his damage sucks.
Exectly. Gragas, Mao, Naut, Shen, Poppy, Galio, and Zac are very durable, because they have a way of turning off the enemy's DPS with stuns/displacements/slows/invulnerability etc. Damage is so high these days that having a ton of effective health, even if you have Damage Reduction, just doesn't make you all that tanky anymore. If you're taking 1500 DPS, every second of CC basically gives you an extra 1500 effective health. (This argument does not even take into account that true Tanks can turn off DPS to PROTECT THEIR ALLIES too, not just in duels.)
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kR0n2o06,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-05-30T03:10:19.114+0000) > > The power creep is real. > > Bork nerfs ought to help him a bit though, hopefully. 3% lifesteal off the item isnt gonna do shit.
Damn thought it was gonna be 4% hmm.
: hes back to where he was before armor shred buff. i really hope theyre looking at him soon.
The power creep is real. Bork nerfs ought to help him a bit though, hopefully.
Sujiren (NA)
: The question is do we need more strong braindead champions? We already have stuff like akali and master yi, is it fun to play vs them?
Garen's not even remotely strong right now, what are you talking about? He's woefully underperforming. I would however like Riot to buff him in a way that only helps out significantly if you've got some skill or game knowledge, and doesn't help as much at lower skill levels. For example shortening his autoattack animations, as they've done on several champions to modernize them. Garen's autoattack windup takes a very long time compared to other AD casters.
jorrgi (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=NovaDisk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kR0n2o06,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-29T19:03:33.154+0000) > > Garen's been the weakest champion in Diamond+ for many patches now. I call bs on that there are at least 7 champs who are consistently worse (including my bae {{champion:77}} that's why i know)
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Garen/ Garen's 136/136, dead last. Once in a while he'll bump up to 134 and I've even seen him at 128 but he's been dead last or very close to it for at least 5 patches now. Udyr's also definitely pretty crappy right now though ):
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NovaDisk

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