: Ask an Irelia Main - Completed
Can Rito ever stop using THIS GUY as their go to Irelia main? Seriously, toxic as hell...And then IN THE INTERVIEW they did, he admitted to dodging....NOT a great example, guys. Pick another, guys, come on.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nssheepster,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=PfTJ75Ux,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-04-25T10:41:51.583+0000) > > I would disagree with both the Doublelift example and Poker. Poker is enjoyable, and competitive...but I can't say as I've ever heard it called a sport. As the game is based entirely on randomization, it's also seen as less competitive. On the subject of sports, the argument falls flatly on what an individual defines it as. your complaint is basically that randomness is bad in the case of the Drake updates when considering the responsibility League of Legends has towards making Esports a respected Sport. that opinion is fine, though by the same token,the whole reason Esports may come to be considered for ESPN or other major companies to invest in, is because of the new base of support it brings. Simply said, League has a fan base they wish to bring in, not because we are some new football show. much the same ESPN shows Poker Tournaments, and calls it a sport. The fan base of poker is separate from those who watch football, and brings enough value to be on ESPN's broadcast list. Not to mention ESPN is known to broadcast only sports events, so now you can say a reputable source considers it a sport despite the lack of athleticism. In terms of being legitimately considered a sport, much like poker it is up to our individual mindset and understanding of the word "sport" to call any competition what we see fit as a society, if you were to say that you think the new Drakes would ruin the game for the billions of league fans who watch it, then riot did in fact mess up. I myself am no huge fan of the Drake changes, but I do however see this change, however unique, to be one of many changes riot intends to use to keep the game evolving. Many sports edit rules slightly every few years, but only league constantly tries to re-balance and improve based on the strategies that develop. Every season and major change makes it interesting to watch.
According to Google, a sport is currently defined as "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." League has a chance to remove the physical exertion requirement. Poker has NO chance to be called a sport. As for drakes ruining the game for LoL fans....Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how bad the RNG gets in the LCS. If one team focuses on the neutrals...RNG decides if they win or not. Getting three Air Dragons...oooo, you move faster, but that won't win you the game, flat out. Might help some, but it's not OP. Three Fire Dragons? Yeah, you win at that point. More so with the Elder Dragon buffing up your Fire boost even more. Getting 20%+ to your damage is a game winning boost if you have that and the enemy doesn't. So if you focus neutrals...You rely on RNG to get a good dragon to spawn. If you don't focus neutrals, then you rely on RNG to get a bad dragon to spawn. If Riot puts it in game as it is on PBE RN, then it's bad news for the LCS and LCS fans. Hopefully they change/balance it some, so multiple fire dragons isn't an instant win.
HoboGod (NA)
: While a fair counter-argument that randomness caused by players' actions and decisions are more acceptable (to some) than randomness caused by a randomly generated number, it's still an issue of spectators' exhilaration for the unexpected. We as sports fans want to see something unpredictable. One could argue these moments come in the form of Faker solo killing his opponent or xPeke backdooring the enemy nexus, and they do! But also it comes from Doublelift hitting two crits at the start of a fight and snowballing that momentum into a quadra kill. Also, there ARE sports where the game itself decides who has an advantage. ESPN covers the World Series of Poker. The fact that the game has dealt one player the better hand makes the game no less competitive and entertaining to watch.
I would disagree with both the Doublelift example and Poker. Poker is enjoyable, and competitive...but I can't say as I've ever heard it called a sport. As the game is based entirely on randomization, it's also seen as less competitive.
: Most traditionally outdoor sports aren't delayed from weather, and when games can be, timing of the cancellation can be odd and change player mindset. Injuries take out a possibly important player and replace them with a possibly bad player. I've seen teams devastated by just one injury (think the Cardinals without Carson Palmer a few years back). Home-field advantage is actually pretty major. Football isn't as affected since it does major games (AKA Super Bowl) in neutral locations, but most other major sports use different teams' home sites. There's about a 5-10% advantage for a home team. I won't say too much about ref miscalls, since we agree, but I do have to stress the importance of them on the game.
Player mindset is not a controllable factor by anyone but the player, the game itself is not at fault. Having a bad player on the roster is the team's job to deal with, and again, not caused by the game itself. I agree that mindset and emergency replacements have an impact, but I disagree on their relavance here. Nobody in gaming or industry can control people, but those people themselves. Nobody expects that. People DO expect, however, that their sports are controlled by the players/teams, not the game. If the game decides when you crit and what drake spawns, then it's hard to call that as part of a sport.
: Does weather not exist? Do injuries not exist? How about home-field advantage or even referee errors/miscalls? All of those can have major effects on the game while essentially being random. I've seen Rioters say that something like that is used. Not sure where, but it was somewhere on these boards.
Weather does....Which is why sports get canceled for weather, or they take place in an indoor/covered arena. Injuries remove the player and add a new one, not a change caused by the game. Home field advantage is minimalized, and actually doesn't exist in a majority of places, in the interest of fairness. Referee miscalls are a bad thing and avoided wherever possible, and that is a distinct advantage of esports, as we can't HAVE miscalls. I've got a lot of practice with this debate, XD.
HoboGod (NA)
: This argument is based mostly around the assumption that no luck exists in actual sport. I couldn't disagree more. What makes many sports interesting is the unpredictable X factor that is being human. Men and women briefly pushing themselves beyond their limits to achieve remarkable feats or suffer painful injury. Spectators cannot predict when these events may occur and are therefor no less random than critical strikes. As for the elemental dragons, however, I somewhat agree. Many teams draft for high neutral objective control assuming that they will be consistently rewarded for those objectives. If no buff is significantly more or less impactful than the others, then the random nature of the buffs wont matter. However, if these buffs are imbalanced, then the team drafting for high neutral objective control will be punished if weaker buffs spawn more frequently than stronger buffs.
Player based variables are 100% acceptable, and if you notice, I didn't argue against them. All variables in sports are controlled by one or more players, as the game itself never changes. The games all seem different each time because of individual and team choices and performance, not a change caused by the game itself. I argue only against variables that the players cannot control. Players cannot control their crits, or prevent the enemy's crits. Nor can they control what type of drake spawns. Hence my issue with them.
: Yes, the game will be different every time. Therefore, the players will have to be able to adapt to many different situations. The dragon, on live, gives you one question to answer: "Can I take this for free?" If yes, you take it. If no, you probably don't take it. No difficult decisions, no adaptation, just grabbing it when it's up and the enemy is pushed in. Now, as they give different and more specified effects, you have 6 minutes to make a major choice on what to do there. I agree that crit isn't the best system. I was comparing it to the elemental dragons in that one is the good way to make RNG (dragons) and one is the bad way (crit). Quick crits is not good. People randomly get lucky and somebody wins when they may not have pre-crit. Dragons may impact the game in the long run, but everyone has time to play around it, and it is, in the end, in the players' hands what they do. If they end up fighting around dragon and losing, it's their faults for contesting, not RNG's fault for making that dragon spawn. As for your method of coding crit, a system a little more random than the one you suggest is actually in place. Each one technically isn't random, the chances increase or decrease when you get crits to eventually close in on whatever your actual crit chance is. Let's say you have 50% crit. If your first attack crits, it becomes much more likely that the second will not. If you crit again, it gets even more unlikely that your third attack will crit. So it's not pure RNG, but still can be very random.
Actual sports are not different every time. Each game is the same, the only variable is individual player choices and performance. That's my issue with that. Accepted variables for sports are player based, not game based. What you are referring to is an Entropy system, and LoL does not, in fact, RUN an Entropy system for crit. League gives every attack a flat perccentage. 50% crit can leave you with twenty attacks in a row with no crits, or all crits. It's 100% random.
: The problem with Esports being considered a sport is simple: It isn't one. It has more in common with chess or Magic: The Gathering - competitive, but not sports in any traditional sense. It's a separate thing that is just barely breaking into the mainstream.
How so? Aside from the aforementioned RNG, Esports is everything a sport is, with none of their issues. Sports are defined by competitive, team focused gameplay, where two or more teams aim for the same goal, and aim to prevent the enemy team from accomplishing that same goal. Except sports are heavily influenced by your physique, and Esports are not. Quadrapelgics can and have played League of Legends. You can't say the same for Football or Baseball, can you?
: Crit and the dragon changes are actually very different. Crit is a very quick RNG that nobody can really plan around unless they get 100% crit. The dragons are a completely different matter. When a dragon is killed, you get a full 6 minutes to prepare for another one. You have time to prepare warding. You have time to plan an ambush. You have time to bully your enemies out of contention. It's a way for teams to prove their shot-calling mastery of anything that might happen, not a small way to fuck one person/team over. If League has an RNG problem, it's definitely an existing version from crit, not a new version from the new dragons.
My issue is not with the drakes or drake contesting. My issue is that the TYPE of dragons that will spawn are random. Your first dragon could be any of four, and each grant a different buff that will affect the game and its outcome. If the elemental type/buff was not random, then there would be no issue. As it stands, these buffs NEED to be impactful to matter, but if they are, then you've provided RNG access to a buff of a RNG type. If only air dragons spawn all game, the game will be very different from if all fire dragons spawn, right? There in lies the issues. As for crit being a quick RNG, it IS still RNG, and if it was recoded as I suggest, you could plan for it. Maybe not the average player, but the LCS is clearly capable of this kind of thing.
Rioter Comments
: Patch 6.1 notes
I still disagree with the singular AP JG item. I still want Blind Pick removed with Teambuilder. I STILL MISS ZEPHYR. I still want KNOCKUPS to be effected by tenacity, like they always should have been. EVERY form of CC should be effected by tenacity. Also, if TD/Masteries are still not quite in line....then the ranked season should not be starting. Delay it until you fix this, because that's a big thing to leave unfixed when ranked starts, that'll effect every champion in every ranked game. That's just not right.
: New champ select replaces Team Builder
I will only be alright with the removal of Teambuilder if A) Riot admits that the logic they are using to justify removing TB is the same logic TB people used to call for removal of Blind Pick. And B) if they REMOVE BLIND PICK. Seriously, if TB wasn't enough to get that junk mode removed, THIS BETTER BE. I'm still peeved over the change to the C menu, which still annoys me in game, and Zephyr didn't need to be removed, nor did Sword of the Occult. I've spent a lot of money on this game so I've been sticking it out, but seriously Riot, get your @@@@ together.
: I think they're going to have to remove thunderlords, actually. When a single mastery is chosen by everyone on the team all the time, it's clearly a problem. The reason you don't see other masteries often is thunderlords is literally overpowered; the health mastery is great for people looking to stick to their opponents and fight until the other guy dies... but thunderlords activates earlier and doing more damage is more practical than healing. Fervor of battle provides a solid increase in damage output... But thunderlords provides that damage faster. Stormraiders surge lets you get out after doing big damage... But thunderlords makes it so that your opponents need to get out. The only time another keystone is legitimately a better option than thunderlords is if you're playing a support tank and want to take bond of stone so that your allies take less damage, or youre playing {{champion:16}} and want windspeakers.
> [{quoted}](name=AITR IM LOGN LWN,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=efZsAuEE,comment-id=0012000300020000,timestamp=2016-01-06T03:03:00.615+0000) > > I think they're going to have to remove thunderlords, actually. When a single mastery is chosen by everyone on the team all the time, it's clearly a problem. The reason you don't see other masteries often is thunderlords is literally overpowered; the health mastery is great for people looking to stick to their opponents and fight until the other guy dies... but thunderlords activates earlier and doing more damage is more practical than healing. Fervor of battle provides a solid increase in damage output... But thunderlords provides that damage faster. Stormraiders surge lets you get out after doing big damage... But thunderlords makes it so that your opponents need to get out. The only time another keystone is legitimately a better option than thunderlords is if you're playing a support tank and want to take bond of stone so that your allies take less damage, or youre playing {{champion:16}} and want windspeakers. Some champs get more use out of Fervor, and there's some use to Warlord's Bloodlust for late game ADCs. Shyvana, for example, stacks Fervor way fast with her W and her Q, so that's what you go. But overall the free damage is just free damage, so anyone will take free damage when they can.
: It doesn't matter if the walls are swarming with tentacles if you're not near the walls. She can spawn a million if she wants, but they can't attach to the ground and they don't have that much range.
> [{quoted}](name=AITR IM LOGN LWN,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=6wazAs3J,comment-id=0069000200000001,timestamp=2016-01-05T03:03:25.733+0000) > > It doesn't matter if the walls are swarming with tentacles if you're not near the walls. She can spawn a million if she wants, but they can't attach to the ground and they don't have that much range. Their range is sufficient to reach halfway across mid lane. Worse if they spawn on a tower, which they can. Top lane, where they often spawn in that bush corner, or on the corner by the commonly warded river bush, that's even worse, and it's the same in bottom lane. She needs a fixing. Then again, so does their other Juggernauts. Riot has made mistakes with the Juggernaut philosophy, and they refuse to consider it as such. Even in high level play, LCS players will actively warp the way they play the game to deal with these champions. I've heard more than one LCS player say, when streaming, "We can't go for Dragon, (X juggernaut) is up. If they catch us there, they can just 1v5, and we're all dead." No champion should warp the game like that unless they are massively fed, but these champions do so simply by existing. The massive threat they put up makes siege-ing, defending, or going near Dragon/Baron/Buffs when this champion is unaccounted for on the map, is just not right. It does occur at all levels of play.
Bradsome (NA)
: {{champion:203}} is bad :S
I think, with how weak she is early, and her issues in FINISHING targets, she's...fair. I think maybe her stacks need a cap, eventually. 25% would take a while, but that'd be a more than reasonable cap. Honestly it should never have been released uncapped, uncapped stacking is just a ticket to victory if you stall long enough. Looking at you, Nasus and Veigar.
: exactly. i don't want to be a damage dealer when i pick {{champion:33}} or {{champion:111}} , i want to show up, and just be a cc bringing monster (i would say juggernaut but {{champion:122}} ruined that word) i wan't to set up kills for allies and take damage from enemies ( i love that defensive keystone with DR, i forgot its name). furthermore, they mentioned the immobile mages as they are called and i was thinking i want them to differentiate from assassins with more than just the "i go in"/"i don't go in" thing. im thinking more things like the {{champion:34}} and {{champion:30}} walls, where they alter the battlefield, and take control of things, rather than just being damage. {{champion:268}} is another great example, while {{champion:1}} is a bad example, just damage and tibbers. (why cant i upvote this guy more)
I used to love Rammus when they had the old Armor-MR mastery. Especially with Thunderlord's now, he needs MR even against a full AD team. He just doesn't get as tanky as he once did, and he can't counter full AD teams since Thunderlord's does magic damage. Please bring that back, Riot. Armor-MR mastery was really good. Would make a great Keystone Mastery, in place of that random, unused health thingy. Grasp sees use. Bond sees...some use, not a ton when I play. That random health thingy? The people I play with don't even know its name. Replace it. Also, on masteries....Adding Assasin was wonderful, not just because I play top lane, but also because having 3 options there is a great move. Three options in EVERY row is a WONDERFUL idea, please consider it.
: State of the Season: Preseason Progress
Leave Runeglaive in. Bring Magus back. Runeglaive Diana? Good. Magus Diana? Bad. Runeglaive Fiddlesticks? Bad. Magus Fiddlesticks? Good. Get the idea? You've separated mages too far to reasonably have just one mage jungle item. There are too many AA Mage junglers that love Runeglaive to remove it, and you still have the old standbys that can't use Runeglaive and need Magus. Accept this, and move on with your day, please. This constant attempt to tune around all mages is not working, and hasn't since Season 3 when I started. Accept the diversity in your mages, which is a GOOD thing, and one of the design values you've proclaimed, and then ACT as if your mages are diverse. One extra jungle item only makes the total...5. 5 options does not Item Clutter make. Frankly, since you're so keen on focusing balance on high-end play, you shouldn't worry in the slightest about high-end players knowing which to use. Sheen effect? AA Mage. No Sheen effect? Non-AA Mage.
: Poppy actually didn't have an amazing early game, Poppy really needed at least one full item (usually trinity or gunblade, both pricey items) to really be a threat, and she needed 2-3 items to begin her rampage of murder. As for her early game not doing much damage I agree that it is definitely lower damage, but it feels a lot harder for most junglers to gank her early on now and she just feels more tanky. Old poppy's issue was that a few ganks would put poppy so far behind that she would need 5 items to make an impact again. New poppy feels a lot safer and can't be shut down as easily during the laning phase. Also I feel that you are still playing her a bit too much like the old poppy. Her goal isn't to wreak havoc on the enemy back line anymore. Now she is meant to be a tank who switches between front line damage soaker to adc protector. New poppy is really either meant to be a tank who fights well in the jungle (all the walls) and has unparalleled backline protection. Her goal isn't to do tons of damage anymore, her goal is to protect those who do damage. I can understand being sad that she is a very different champ than how she used to be but Riot have given her a solid position to fit into teamcomps. Also I am surprised that you find her having mana issues. I will def agree that old poppy has mana issues but I have rarely fallen below 1/4 mana when playing the new poppy. Are you trying to trade with your lane opponent too much? She really isn't meant to do that as much anymore, I suggest farming through the early game until you get your cleaver/trinity before really trying to fight people without jungler ganks. Just my 2 cents of course. Take it as you will.
My issue isn't that she doesn't have TONS of damage anymore...my issue is she has almost none. My issue with the early game is that before, she had lots of power to trade early...but the mana gated it, so it was fair. Now she has those same mana costs...but her Q has so much less power that she CAN'T trade without spamming it, and her mana costs are still tuned for her old, high damage Q. Tanks can't have NO damage or they are unviable. After Poppy's ultimate is down, what does she offer? No real damage threat, a small slow...and she can stop dashes...ONCE, on a high cooldown. The only tank that's viable with no real damage is Nautilus, and that's because he has SO MUCH CC that it makes up for it. Poppy doesn't have enough CC to justify her having so little damage. She's no threat in a teamfight as is, and she's no threat as a split pusher because she has no damage. It's a mistake in Riot's understanding of tanks.
: The RIP List of 2015
I still miss Zephyr...:-(
: While this is true I feel like Riot has definitely improved in that regard. When I learned that Poppy was going to be updated and all her splash arts redone my initial thought was "Oh no, but what about the Lollipoppy splash?" I had confidence that Riot was going to take a champ that was a bit all over the place and give them a more cohesive play style but I was worried for all the little things that made some people really connect with the champ. And yet when I saw the new Lollipoppy splash I was like, wow. They did it perfectly. It looks nice, it is well done, but the hilarious face is still tucked in. It took away a lot of my anxieties about what would happen to Armour of the 5th age Taric in the rework. And as a Taric main that means a lot to me. So yeah, and changes are going to bring some conflict from the fanbase but I feel that Riot have really learned a lot from the Fiora rework.
I like Poppy's art rework...but Poppy used to be a damaging dive champ, with a scary early game that was only mitigated by her mana issues.. Now Poppy is a tank with little early damage, and not much damage until very late, and has those same mana issues still. The art is wonderful....but the gameplay runs into the classic tank problem, she has no damage and not enough CC to compensate for that. She can and often IS safely walked around in teamfights. It needs work.
: Actually, all except Vayne have poke... Lucian's Q and R, Twitch's W and E, Ezreal's Q are all poke. Besides that, the only thing that makes "poke" work in the mid lane is that: A: It's high damage B: Poke mid laners have utility in case they get jumped on. The only ADCs that have that are Ezreal, Caitlyn, and Kalista (who also needs a support). There is nothing stopping Vayne from just jumping on top of Jinx as soon as she leaves turret by herself. There's nothing stopping Caitlyn from harassing her out of lane so she can't even touch the creeps. There is nothing stopping any assassin from going bot instead of an ADC, so she'll die instantly. Jinx cannot exist in a meta without supports. She isn't just mostly defenseless, she is **reliant on getting ahead**. If you throw her into a game where she's 90% chance guaranteed to lose lane and hug tower the whole time, you can't play her. Because an ADC without gold is less useful than a support.
> [{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmfHywvO,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-20T10:41:09.377+0000) > > Actually, all except Vayne have poke... Lucian's Q and R, Twitch's W and E, Ezreal's Q are all poke. > > Besides that, the only thing that makes "poke" work in the mid lane is that: > A: It's high damage > B: Poke mid laners have utility in case they get jumped on. > > The only ADCs that have that are Ezreal, Caitlyn, and Kalista (who also needs a support). > There is nothing stopping Vayne from just jumping on top of Jinx as soon as she leaves turret by herself. There's nothing stopping Caitlyn from harassing her out of lane so she can't even touch the creeps. There is nothing stopping any assassin from going bot instead of an ADC, so she'll die instantly. Jinx cannot exist in a meta without supports. She isn't just mostly defenseless, she is **reliant on getting ahead**. If you throw her into a game where she's 90% chance guaranteed to lose lane and hug tower the whole time, you can't play her. Because an ADC without gold is less useful than a support. Lucian's Q is not too hard to dodge, and not that high of damage early. It also costs a healthy chunk of mana, so it's not really spammable. Twitch has his puny damage yeah, but Jinx's is better, so not really an issue for you. Ezreal's tend to use his Q to farm, and the hitbox is small even if they do use it as poke, plus their poke is interrupted by minions, Rocket AOE is not. Poke works in TOP and Mid lane, not because it is high damage, but because it is untrade-able damage. If you can get any damage off on your enemy laner that they can't return, you start gaining a lead. That lead builds until you can all-in them and kill them, or until you force them out of lane. The thing stopping Vayne from jumping you is the fact that you'd probably win early, and by the time she could 1v1 you, say level 4 or so, you can farm under tower easily if you're that worried, cuz she isn't going to dive you solo. If an assasin goes bot instead of an ADC, they'll immediately hit the same issue as Mordekaiser compositions, which is a lack of range and an inability of siege to end the game. Sure, you'll have a hard lane, and a long game, but you can still win that game because your team has an ADC and theirs doesn't. Also, Jinx isn't reliant on getting ahead, she's reliant on items. There's a difference, you know. If she gets ahead, she gets her items faster, yes...but she can get those same items on par with her enemy laner and do very well. Jinx can and does hyper carry even from behind, as long as she gets her items. She also won't struggle with farming under tower, at all, so that's not really a big issue. You are forgetting that all the issues you're naming....your enemy has them too. Play some melee top laners for a while, it tends to help people grasp a lot of the basics of trading, poke, and sustain. If you play at range all the time, it's easy to forget things like that. I would know, I've done it myself. Play something melee, and you are forced to constantly be aware of minion aggro, wave control, sustain on both sides of the matchup, cooldown trading, CCs..... With an ADC? It's more about where are you shooting, and are you far enough away from danger. Less to think about it. Not less skill, or easier, I'm not saying that. Just a different focus that tends to lead to forgetting the "little" things.
: Yes, I would need a support. You're wrong when you say as soon as both get crit items it's luck. Lucian, Twitch, Ezreal, and Vayne would almost ALWAYS win lane. Corki might do fine as well. But Jinx? MF? Sivir? Ashe? Not enough up-front damage to win a 1v1, can't do anything about multi-person dives. They'd cease to exist.
> [{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmfHywvO,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-20T09:41:11.005+0000) > > Yes, I would need a support. You're wrong when you say as soon as both get crit items it's luck. Lucian, Twitch, Ezreal, and Vayne would almost ALWAYS win lane. Corki might do fine as well. But Jinx? MF? Sivir? Ashe? Not enough up-front damage to win a 1v1, can't do anything about multi-person dives. They'd cease to exist. I gotta disagree with you there. Jinx, Mf, Sivir and Ashe all have something Vayne, Lucian, Twitch and Ezreal don't. Poke. As Jinx, you can pop rockets, get them with the AOE, and whittle them down. MF? Double shot with her new passive. Sivir's...well, obviously. Ashe has her volley, plus she's not got the luck issue, with her passive affecting crit as it does. It's similar to every other lane at that point. Some champions whittle down their enemies. Some champions burst them down. At no point would Jinx disappear because of a removal of supports. Also, what ADC can really deal with a multi person dive? Ezreal, MAYBE? And Corki. That's kinda it. And that multi person dive costs the enemy team as well, since they'll need at least their JG down there, and without that pressure your other lanes get that freedom to go aggro. If they take two down bot, it can be a lot of lost CS, XP, and tower health, making that lane very hard to go back to.
Beldair (NA)
: Don't forget the teams kicking you for choosing an off-meta support and them not liking it (even if it does work *cough*Renekton support*cough* XD) But i'm the same way. If i don't think our team has even a slight chance of winning or i'm already under attack for my support pick, then boom i'm gone. There's plenty of other teams i can play with. Which is the best thing about being a support. Supports can literally be picky with what teams they want to be on because of how few play support and how many need a support. But most supports aren't too picky. A decent team comp and a good attitude is all a support wants from a group. You give them that and they will give it their best shot in aiding you to victory.
True, but there are still more games then there are supports. That's the issue. Also, I rarely have supports leave, and the only supports I toss are Teemos and Illaois. The other roles, however, get tired of waiting ten or more minutes for a support, so they leave. Turnover in all positions is high, supports have almost no turnover, because it's so hard to get a support.
: I may not like to **play** support, but I **need** a support to be able to play Jinx, so no. Thanks.
Would you NEED a support if there were no supports? Right now, you need a support because the enemy has one, and because wards. With the current de-emphasis on vision, if there were no supports, then both ADCs would be equally vulnerable to ganks, and you'd not really need a support like you do now. You also wouldn't be able to count on kills in lane, pushing a teamfight focus for the ADC role, all because you couldn't make a catch with your support, and as soon as both ADCs get crit items, a 1v1 is just luck, and before that both ADCs know the winner.
Beldair (NA)
: As a player who mains support (but does play other roles from time to time), i've yet to really see that problem when i play a different role. Wether i'm just lucky or not, it's usually the adc we wait one. But i have seen some complain about the lack of support players. It is one of the least played roles, since, as you even said, ppl want to carry. They want to be able to say that they won us the victory (even of their little support actually set them up for all those kills, just saying XD) instead of having practically no kills and trying to give all the glory to others. Which is fine, us support mains will sit back and bask in our own glory. They do probably need to work out something to help those who go so long with 0 ppl jumping in as support. Like, if after say 20 minutes a support hasn't jumped in, a different role is selected...idk lol
My hope is more that the support role can somehow be made more appealing, or viably removed.
Rioter Comments
: But are warwick and aatrox inherently unhealthy? More specifically, is their 'autoattacking and abilities that give them health' healthy (since I know Riot probably has opinions on WW ult.) I don't think so. Lifesteal doesn't have an opportunity cost, though. I mean, you might be able to argue that you could buy another crit item or AS item, but if you have to be alive to deal that damage, it's not an opportunity cost, now it is?
My thought on LS is simply that it's a little TOO fast in most games. When I see an ADC hit 100 health at the end of a fight, and rush over there to finish them off.....Suddenly they're almost back to full from one minion wave. That's with usually one lifesteal item. Technically two if they haven't sold Doran's yet. That's a little much. There's also cases where fights can be won or lost based on lifesteal, because lifesteal is healing you as you fight. I can, and still do, run a heavy AS Aatrox into a lot of aggressive matchups, and just leave his W on heal. Suddenly it's near impossible to 1v1 me because for every three autos I take, I auto three times and heal for 1.5 to 2 autos worth of damage..and I auto faster, as well. Aatrox, at least, has that at a cost of being VERY kiteable. If Lifesteal only activated outside of combat, or had reduced effectiveness in combat, it'd make more sense. As things stand, a Jinx with an IE and a JInx with a BT fight....And the Jinx with the BT will win, unless the Jinx with IE gets lucky as hell. And that's just not quite right.
: Total Recall, or: That Time We Disabled Ranked
I am still kinda curious....What ended up being the cause, exactly? Like, in the code, what had gone wrong? Plus, this had to be triggered somewhere....what triggered it, exactly? I'm just curious about the coding mechanics of it, is all.
Meddler (NA)
: Pretty happy so far, though our expectations weren't that things would be perfect from the start. Our goals were to make masteries that were noticeable in game, that modified how you and other players played to a moderate amount and that had some meaningful choice to them. We feel we're hitting the first two goals fairly well. Choice is present in some cases, though some Masteries do feel mandatory or pointless for some champions. One of the next things we'll be doing is gradually fleshing out the Tier 1 and Tier 2 keystones to 3 choices each. Intent there is to offer options for champions that aren't drawn to some trees at present to offer more choice between trees while also offering choices between masteries at a tier for those already using them. We also want to help out some classes that aren't currently being well enough served (assassins in particular). Additionally there's still a fair bit of balance tuning needed on some of the existing masteries, where there are potentially interesting choices to be made once the numbers are refined into the right spots. The 5 point stat masteries by contrast aren't intended to be choices generally. Stats are much, much easier to optimize, but do need to be provided to give champions appropriate functionality and define how attractive each tree is to any given champion. We're fine with those often feeling predetermined at some tiers as a result, with some options on certain champions depending on how you want to play.
Any chance you guys are thinking of "linked" runes? IE, take up, say...all three quint spots for a large, special boost. Instead of this being a flat stat boost, it could be something "odd", like say, % damage or cc buff to Q/W/E/R. % crit reduction, maybe. Some of the unique item passives would also be kewl here. Similar things could be done to the other areas. Maybe instead of buying tons of CDR Glyphs to get that 5% you want, and then filling the other spots, a linked glyph for that % could be sold. I like the idea of Keystone masteries, also..I feel like the game needs more things like this. Going from, say, Thunderlord's to Grasp of The Undying, makes Volibear play differently, but are both viable. I think the game needs more things like that. I don't think anyone should be able to say, "Oh, It's X vs Y matchup. This is what will happen at every part in the game. Okay then". If masteries and runes do "odd" things that really alter the playstyles, viably...then this is no longer an issue. Also, giving flat stats seems odd, to me, in runes/masteries. I feel like flat stats are gotten in game, on items. I understand, and enjoy, % stat buffs, like Max Health or MS quints...But giving flat stats? Underwhelming. That kind of thing becomes a numbers game, and there'll be an easy answer, by the math, as to what to use. But MS or Max Health quints on volibear? Both viable. Both are about as useful, in all parts of the game....So it's up to preference. I also miss the armor-magic resist mastery thing you guys had, that turned armor into MR or MR into armor, whichever you had more of...It was a lot of fun, it was great in so many games, and even if you ended up building both, the mastery still saw use. I really expected it to be a Keystone mastery, but it's just gone now....RIP. Rammus and Galio sadness. Well, tank in general sadness. It was also nice to be able to punish heavy AD or AP teams with this mastery. It gave you just enough Arm or MR to deal with the little bit they'd build to try to deal with your resists.
: {{champion:26}} .... I can make you age faster.
Look at it this way....Jailbait is no longer jailbait. Cuz magic aging.
: Don't stand near walls in lane, don't stand in a ball in teamfights, don't chase her through the jungle, and {{champion:420}} immediately loses everything that makes her op.
...The classic "She's only broken if you fight in her tentacles" mistake. So.....Don't fight....if she's spawned a tentacle, which she does HOW often? Okay. Don't fight unless her E is down, or you might end up Vessel'ed, and spawning tentacles yourself. Oh, and don't fight if her ultimate is up, because then she can MAKE the tentacles that make her broken....Oh yeah, and she builds tanky and does damage anyways, so even without her tentacles, you can't actually burst her down easily, so she could easily live long enough to...SPAWN a tentacle. Or just for her E to come back up, so that YOU spawn tentacles. Yeah, the "No tentacle" counterplay is a miserable failure.
: Thunderlords decree requires you to invest heavily in cunning, which means not investing as heavily in ferocity. With the changes to the cunning tree it might be worth it, but giving up a lot of damage for thunderlords has been a difficult decision.
For the Hecarim issue specifically....Cunning might now be the go-to for top laners looking to trade in lane. The Assasin mastery they added, plus Thunderlord's is great. Some tops can also use that 45% CDR as well.
: {{champion:420}} op? have you tried not standing right directly next to the wall? her damage is greatly reduced if you're in the middle of lane, just saying
Sounds like the classic excuse to me. "Don't trade when she has tentacles...But, oh, you can't kill them as a melee champion, IE most top laners...or she'll beat you up with them. So if you somehow get her away from them....don't get hit by her E, or you'll start spawning them for her. Oh, and don't go in if she has her ultimate up, she'll just,....MAKE tentacles." The whole, don't trade with tentacles around "counterplay" is a miserable failure. I could honestly deal with the tentcale's damage and power...if they didn't HEAL her as well. Damage on a strong, annoying ability? Okay, I can dig it. I can deal. Healing on a strong, annoying ability? Alright, fine. Both? Yeah, that's reaching the same dangerous design space as Riven's AD scaling shield. Damage equating to tankiness, or vice versa, is a risky spot to be in, and not a good design for anything. It's very rare that that CAN be balanced. The only good example I've seen is Volibear, honestly.
Retillin (NA)
: And Lee Sin/Jax/Kat were never meant to ward hop...
Yup. But OFC Riot can admit that, but won't remove it....And people wonder why Kat/Jax/Lee never really leave the meta....Could be added little utility things like this....Just maybe.
Cincluer (NA)
: I disagree with the first part. In dota yes you do get punished heavily for dying but depending on your hero you can still have an impact even if you get dumpstered early game. Take an offlane beastmaster for instance you can get shit on all game but once you hit 6 and get a blink dagger suddenly your gold deficit doesn't matter any more. In league if a solo laner gets destroyed there isn't really a good comeback mechanic in place so that player will be underpowered unless their team is destroying and they manage to ks every kill. Note- What I mean by comeback mechanic is either an ability that makes a champion scary regardless of farm, which very few champions have, or medium priced items that help you and your team be strong right now as opposed to the optimal build items that you'd normally want for late game. Part of this problem is actually masteries and summoners spells if league gave items those properties, as well as other stats of course for item efficiency purposes, and made em cost between 1500 and 2500 gold they would offer that I'm strong now feel while your opponent is trying to go straight IE. Freezing is an important part to both games and I will admit it's much mor challenging to accomplish a freeze in league than it is in dota. My point about my proposed item and minion changes was unless you built your team to push early it would be disadvantageous to do so. The exp reduction as well as the top tier item cost increase would slow the game a bit and let you choose between building for early fights and building for late game. Right now with the system in place if your ahead its push push push to keep your farm up, and if your behind its let em take our towers we'll catch the farm closer to our base where it's safer and hope we can hold out. What I'd like to see is instead ok we're behind those who can buy aura items everyone else get a mid tier item and let's go pick a fight and punish that carry for going IE first. Also I'd like to see some melee champs in the carry role besides just morde, you shouldn't have to pick a marksman if you want to play carry.
Melee carry? You mean Riven, Olaf, Darius, Irelia? Off the top of my head there's them. I don't personally support comeback abilites, per se, but I do support mechanics that do that. This is not a good one, however. Also, I can't support mid tier item changes. The piece items we currently have are useful, and can help you out, and then the sellback mechanic doesn't kill you. Also...punish the carry for going IE first? You mean when behind, you want to be able to get to the carry, or you want IE to be a bad first item? Not clear on what you want there. Riot has also made their stance on Aura items very clear, it's not happening.
NanoCarp (NA)
: First off, I have read all the other responses, and your responses. Yes, minions damaging each other could be considered part of your wave clear (I don't agree with that because it's not damage originating from **your champion**, but that's a moot point). However, because _your_ damage isn't affected, plus the fact that your minions are being _killed faster_ and _dealing less damage_ to their minions adds up to **last hitting becoming significantly easier** the further ahead they are. As well, the opposite is true, with your minions dealing more damage to enemy minions, and taking less from them, it becomes **harder** for the team ahead to last hit. Basically, that pushing power is there, whether or not you want it to be, and it's up to you to correctly synch the waves pushing across multiple lanes. Either of your suggestions would not cause this same change. **All of this said**, am I a huge fan of this change? No. I agree that it's a step in the wrong direction for League. Do I think it's as big of an issue as you seem to be making it out to be? No. _It shifts the emphasis towards pushing your advantage when ahead, or CSing to catch back up from behind._
> [{quoted}](name=NanoCarp0,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=bjs6qKbd,comment-id=0017000200000003,timestamp=2015-11-24T15:47:09.265+0000) > > First off, I have read all the other responses, and your responses. > > Yes, minions damaging each other could be considered part of your wave clear (I don't agree with that because it's not damage originating from **your champion**, but that's a moot point). However, because _your_ damage isn't affected, plus the fact that your minions are being _killed faster_ and _dealing less damage_ to their minions adds up to **last hitting becoming significantly easier** the further ahead they are. As well, the opposite is true, with your minions dealing more damage to enemy minions, and taking less from them, it becomes **harder** for the team ahead to last hit. > > Basically, that pushing power is there, whether or not you want it to be, and it's up to you to correctly synch the waves pushing across multiple lanes. Either of your suggestions would not cause this same change. > > **All of this said**, am I a huge fan of this change? No. I agree that it's a step in the wrong direction for League. Do I think it's as big of an issue as you seem to be making it out to be? No. _It shifts the emphasis towards pushing your advantage when ahead, or CSing to catch back up from behind._ I am clearly missing something in your reply. How does it "SHIFT" the emphasis? The emphasis was there already. This simply tries to enforce it, and further incentivize what was already correct play. Also, last hitting is not easier with this change....Last hitting under tower is actually not even possible at some times. Take, say....Syndra for example. Once she runs OOM, she can't AA to last hit all that easily, now can she? OFC, an OOM Syndra is also easily diveable. And Syndra is thus pinned down under tower, unable to leave for fear of being ganked/dove, and unable to really CS because she's OOM. That's the case for quite a few AP champions. Either save enough mana to save yourself from a dive, or CS with it? Not a choice anyone should have to make.
: Roaming means lost experience, letting the other team regain the level gap.
Unless the level gap hits 3+. it doesn't usually stop me. Also, levels stop at 18....so eventually you'll regain it anyways. Experience is not really the issue with this change. You can also safely gain XP in a frozen lane, quite often.
KlutchS (NA)
: I don't see how potentially taking last hit money from my lane opponent, and lining my pockets with it is against comebacks? I'm all for the change. You either have pushing power, or more gold from last hits, take your pick.
What money are you thinking of? If you're ahead, then it's simply helping you snowball, and that's obviously preventing them from coming back. If you're behind, this change is NOT getting you more gold, but less. In addition to getting less gold, you're also getting all your waves shoved in, and not every champion can CS under tower. Also if you're behind, and there's a wave under tower, your position is accounted for, and your team can be out-rotated, or you could be dived, because you're always under tower. This change benefits those ahead, and hurts those behind. That's never been what League was about, and I don't care for the change.
Cincluer (NA)
: First off I disagree about it being a DOTA change, DOTA doesn't give one teams minions an advantage over the other teams minions unless the baracks have been destroyed. Second I think the minion change is ok not great but alright. I would however like to see a nerf to super minions since it's easier to take inhibitors now having 3k hp super minions running around at 15 or so minions is like having a free silenced scion charging your base every 30s. In the 25-30 min plus games this wasn't a huge deal since most champions would have at least 3 big items by that time and could deal with the supers solo. Last what I would like to see is minions give 50% more gold, 50% less experience, reduce the respawn timers by a few seconds, and increase the item costs of some of the high tier items a bit while either lowering or leaving the cost of some of the middle tier items. This would slow the game down and would make skill orders as well as item choices more impactful. By doing this players would have to focus their builds based on what they wanted to do and break this whole I'm going straight for the most expensive item that benefits me then I'll push a bit then get the next most expensive item that benefits me thing. I believe that by doing this it would turn league into a more diverse game. Pushing would be dangerous early as you'd just funnel gold to the other team unless you have a push strat. Gankers would have more of an impact since they could load up on fight right now items before carries got online. Also the current 4 protect 1 strat would still be viable but it would take longer and be more dangerous to enact since the push strats and fight now strats could shut it down, but it would still be strong if left realativly unpunished. Anyway those are just my thoughts, and yeah I do realize that the push, fight, and protect strats are a bit DOTA esque, but I feel they would make for better games. Last seasons games (pro scene wise) were a bit boring because it was just both teams generally using the same strat every game and the one who was better at early farming and skirmishes usually won.
It's not the strategy that this causes that's DOTA esque, it's the snowballs it supports. In DOTA if you give first blood to your lane opponent...you've probably lost, because you lost gold, both gold you had and gold you could have been making, and your enemy got gold. A lot. It gives a massive advantage and causes huge, often unstoppable snowballs. League has been all about comebacks and the only advantages being ones you earn, not ones the game gives you for free. Also...Farming is a crucial part of the game. Why shouldn't it be important? Freezes are not easy to do. If you look at the "freezes" in the LCS, they weren't, technically, freezes. The wave was simply so far on the enemy's side of the map, it was unsafe to farm, and they pushed it as slowly as possible. Well even with this change, that will happen at times. At times the wave will be in an unsafe area to farm, this change won't fix that. It's not easy to keep minion waves exactly equal, and it's not actually done all that much in pro games. Wave management is usually more about synchronizing when waves are pushing in, so that all three hit at once, if possible.
: Read carefully. These changes will NOT affect your wave clear. The damage bonus and resistance is only against other minions, not champions.
> [{quoted}](name=pccpig,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=bjs6qKbd,comment-id=0017000200000000,timestamp=2015-11-23T23:09:32.178+0000) > > Read carefully. These changes will NOT affect your wave clear. The damage bonus and resistance is only against other minions, not champions. Minions ARE part of your waveclear. I knew about this change when it went on PBE. I didn't agree with it then, I don't agree with it now. This gives an advantage to people who are ahead, which was NEVER what league was about. League insisted on people being even at all times, no advantages but the items and levels you earned. No free passes for those ahead or behind. This is not right.
: To be fair, these changes are a double edged sword. If you're a top laner being starved for farm because an enemy Swain decided he wanted to freeze lane for 10 minutes, you're pretty much screwed. With the minion changes, freezes are less devastating to the lanes who're behind. Instead of starving out the opponent, the changes force the teams who's ahead to either push an advantage or lose the advantage. It's less about making snowballs snowball harder, but making snowballs lose momentum if they don't snowball harder.
> [{quoted}](name=ProxyPylo,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=bjs6qKbd,comment-id=00170002,timestamp=2015-11-23T22:17:29.444+0000) > > To be fair, these changes are a double edged sword. If you're a top laner being starved for farm because an enemy Swain decided he wanted to freeze lane for 10 minutes, you're pretty much screwed. With the minion changes, freezes are less devastating to the lanes who're behind. Instead of starving out the opponent, the changes force the teams who's ahead to either push an advantage or lose the advantage. It's less about making snowballs snowball harder, but making snowballs lose momentum if they don't snowball harder. I disagree. Wave clear often allowed comebacks when nothing else good. This buffs waveclear when ahead, and reduces waveclear when behind. Also, contrary to popular belief, outside of the 5v5 meta, freezes are not hard to break if you are using a champion with any kind of range. Most melee champs also have a ranged ability or an AOE that can allow them to break the freeze in exchange for a little damage. There are also other ways to prevent freezing than this change, in particular. Example A-Make minions have no damage until encountering an enemy champion or minion, then the damage they have is a buff that only lasts so long. The time can be done as a percentage of CS of the champions in lane. IE, Whoever has less CS will have less buff time, so the minions will naturally push towards him so he might get said CS. The person with more CS need not mind this because they can still CS just fine, they are stronger. Example B- Give minions a set time to live after encountering enemy champions/minions, so that they simply die instead of freezing. Denial still occurs, but not in the same fashion. Depending on how the time is set, freezing could be made unprofitable, or even punishing to do. Those are off the top of my head. This is not a LEAGUE change, this is, as some people have said, a DOTA change. If I wanted to play DOTA, I would. I don't, though. I want to play League. I do not hold that whoever gets ahead should stay ahead. If you don't know how to capitalize on an advantage, then you DESERVE to lose that advantage, the game should not cover for your mistakes.
: Updated patch 5.23 notes
These minion changes. Snowballs have gotten harder, comebacks are less likely, and games are getting, yet again, shorter. I always liked the 40+ minute games....>20 minute games are not something I enjoy. I can enjoy losing...I can't enjoy getting stomped.
: To be honest there is actually I lot of importance in being higher ranked. In the past we have had a wider range of skills on the team, and it was very noticeable in our games that one or two people can really lower the quality of feedback we can get from a playtest. The rest all looks good and would certainly help in the interview process, but without the baseline skill it is hard to justify even getting to the interview stage.
Is it possible that this high elo playtesting style is what results in the discrepancy between High and Low level play? After all, the vast majority of League's players on every server are Silver and Bronze. Seems like it'd make more sense to have most of your playtesters be the same. Obviously high elo testing needs to be done, but...what kind of business plans for the minority of its customers, after all?
: Champion Reveal: Illaoi, the Kraken Priestess
Seems like her viability will depend entirely on her passive. HOW often do they spawn, and in what range of her? If it's too slow, she'll be too weak. If too fast, she'll be TOO strong in lane to be fair, similar to Darius with his bleed. Her MS will be a big factor too. With no real gap closer, she could still be played in LCS if she was too slow...but solo que, you can't rely on teamwork and she'd not be used if she was too slow. Hoepfully she's not Sion-level slow.
Mhija (NA)
: Tell me about your favorite Mundo plays! =p
I love it when I bait the enemy top and JG into diving me. I managed to time it once where I Qed between the oncoming dive, killed the last minion to hit 6, then popped my ult, lived through the dive and got a double chasing down the enemy JG. Was laughing so hard I almost derped the second kill.
: A Good Death
So...they're just random murderers? I expected more.
: Champion Reveal: Kindred, the Eternal Hunters
From the animation, the marking of a champion seems to take entirely too long. It's one thing to have a delay, and it SHOULD have a delay, but I feel like this will be useless unless you can dive the marked champion under tower. Also, why do you continue to design for one role and stuff and shove that champion into it? If you use her anywhere but the jungle, you lose part of her effectiveness, permanently. Why not make the stats from wolf stack on monsters IF YOU HAVE A JG ITEM, otherwise they can stack on minions, much slower. Then you can actually use the champion wherever. Unlike poor Skarner, who's had all that power put into those crystals...and yet they don't help him in any lane. TLDR Delay on marking too much. Make it possible for her to lane. OPTIONS, people.
: The Climb: Think like a Challenger Irelia | Irelia Carries U
Uh...Riot. Not sure if you noticed, but there are other famous, high elo Irelia mains. And this guy's a jerk. Seriously, read...well, every youtube comment I've come across from him. And the rare times I catch his stream....he's usually cursing about his team or the enemy team. If you want to spotlight people, go for it. I love it. But you usually don't spotlight toxicity, so it's odd that you missed his. Seems like this article shoulda focused on, say, the ridiculously over-tolerant and polite Gbay99, who also mains Irelia at a high elo. I mean, the guy's so insanely tolerant I almost think you could punch him and he'd shrug it off. This guy? This guy will swear at you if you look at him wrong when he's in a bad mood. TL;DR? It seems odd that you'd spotlight Toxic Man here instead of a nicer, less toxic, and just as good Irelia main. It's not like you were trying to find a high ELO Yorick main, you had lots of options.
: Gameplay update: juggernauts
Morde main no likey the changes. Yes, he's hard to balance....because he gets a shield from damage. His solo lane presence didn't cause his balance issues. And really, encouraging melee characters to replace a marksman bot....That is asking for trouble. If the enemy team is smart, they'll pick a tanky jungle and support, and then just dive you early, and you die. Pet dragon is just insane. Cool yes, but insane. A terrible idea. And if I thought you'd hear any of this, I'd be an idiot.
: no they nerfed Azir's late game and early game (not laning) they nerfed Azri's mechanics with the w->e->r so its now harder to land with no knock-up. Your forced to level w instead of your e (which lowers the cooldown of your 1 dash) So it's a pretty big nerf and a big turnoff to new players because his mechanics are so hard Also seeing champions in competitive play occasionally should not be the reason he should get nerfed. Ahem, sivir, morg, annie, viktor
...We were speaking of RUMBLE. Not Azir. Azir was never mentioned. Please, read.
Show more

Nssheepster

Level 30 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion