: > [{quoted}](name=BastionKross,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2015-12-16T03:27:57.585+0000) > > That's a good point, but I don't know what it has to do with my post exactly. > > I'm all for old Poppy to stay gone, but her playstyle could have been preserved with the new kit. I wasn't advocating we return to her old, unhealthy kit with invulnerability and free tankiness. Then what are you advocating for? Thats the question. Poppy did too much. You're saying you don't want her to do as much as she did but still want her to play the same way. It makes no sense. You'd have to cut SOMETHING out. So now (if im understanding you right) you want poppy to be more like the currently consistently banned mundo? The mundo whos been getting nerfs? Or garen? So, remove any hard cc from poppy, make her more susceptible to cc, and just give her the burst damage. Is that what you mean? I'm really asking im not being a dick or anything. It comes down to what part of old poppy you want to be more pronounced. Riot chose to go with her tanky/cc teamfight oriented style rather than her one-enemy nuke assassin type gameplay. Garen has no cc... none, unless you count his silence as cc. Even garen is not what the old poppy was. So you dont want poppy to have any real cc, do damage to the backline while soaking up damage? My issue is you'll still have people complaining that poppy isn't what she was. Somebody will find something lacking from the new poppy becuase the old poppy had too much. thats my point.
> [{quoted}](name=Deveyes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-16T04:06:04.224+0000) > > It comes down to what part of old poppy you want to be more pronounced. Riot chose to go with her tanky/cc teamfight oriented style rather than her one-enemy nuke assassin type gameplay. Garen has no cc... none, unless you count his silence as cc. Even garen is not what the old poppy was. So you dont want poppy to have any real cc, do damage to the backline while soaking up damage? > > My issue is you'll still have people complaining that poppy isn't what she was. Somebody will find something lacking from the new poppy becuase the old poppy had too much. thats my point. But here's a question then, why decide to go to the tanky route instead of the assassin route? Nobody played her as a tank, it wasn't as fun and because of her design, it was a waste to build health and a waste not to capitalize on her damage potential. I think most what we want is a more assassin type playstyle or at least a bruiser type playstyle, not a tank. I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea, but I'd be fine with out the CC from Q. I'd like to keep the dash of course, that's kind of her thing. And I can see where you're coming from, it sounds like you've been hearing a lot of the guys who are calling for a revert to the old, but try and see it from our side. There is ALOT lacking from the new Poppy comparatively, but the ones we really care about is her play style and role. And like I said before, almost nobody played her tanky with great success, her design, while meant for it, didn't work at all for primary tanking(Which shows just how bad her design was), so if you have to take something out of Poppy, take the little tankiness that she had then.
: I keep putting that there, don't I? Really shouldn't ramble when I'm half asleep. And for your role thing, I think they wanted her to be more unique than just a simple Yordle fighter. Other than Mega Gnar, the Yordles didn't have anyone to represent as a tank. This might have been a factor in her rework. Besides that, if you are defending something, you want to be powerful, be able to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands, etc. Ryze guards an arcane scroll, and uses powerful magic to defend the scroll from those who would take it. Poppy carries the hammer, and she's not going to hand it over to some thug. She uses incredible will and tenacity to stop her opponents from doing so. But that's just my theory. Besides, I think they wanted to remove Assassin Poppy from the game. You know how bad that was.
> [{quoted}](name=MasterSomething,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-16T01:14:39.286+0000) > > I keep putting that there, don't I? Really shouldn't ramble when I'm half asleep. > > And for your role thing, I think they wanted her to be more unique than just a simple Yordle fighter. Other than Mega Gnar, the Yordles didn't have anyone to represent as a tank. This might have been a factor in her rework. Besides that, if you are defending something, you want to be powerful, be able to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands, etc. Ryze guards an arcane scroll, and uses powerful magic to defend the scroll from those who would take it. Poppy carries the hammer, and she's not going to hand it over to some thug. She uses incredible will and tenacity to stop her opponents from doing so. > > But that's just my theory. Besides, I think they wanted to remove Assassin Poppy from the game. You know how bad that was. Being the only Yordle that fights melee? And you do not need defense to defend something, you can do it just as well with offense. In that comic Riot released she is even shown going on the offense and ripping apart a monster. An interesting theory nonetheless, I'll keep thinking on it. Yeah it was bad, but instead of changing her completely, I wish they would have just made her easier to play against by removing the ult. The Q and W are way better now than ever I think.
: Honestly, doesn't Poppy's kit do exactly what old Poppy did, but now with counter-play? You can still kill squishies, but instead of a free immunity to everything for 7 seconds, you need to knock the CC tank away with your ultimate and THEN dive. They just wanted to make her so she could be played _against_ which I think they accomplished.
> [{quoted}](name=DreamCrushed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-16T00:21:27.041+0000) > > Honestly, doesn't Poppy's kit do exactly what old Poppy did, but now with counter-play? You can still kill squishies, but instead of a free immunity to everything for 7 seconds, you need to knock the CC tank away with your ultimate and THEN dive. They just wanted to make her so she could be played _against_ which I think they accomplished. Oh yes, as I said in my opening post, even the champion spotlight youtube video from Riot explains how her new kit accomplishes what her old did. No one is arguing for the old ultimate, anyone who wasn't an idiot could tell it needed to deleted. Perhaps more research should be done on my part, I thought the same thing when I started playing her: Build tanky and knocked the initators away and then engage. But I could never stay alive long enough to get anything more than one E and Q combo off, I found it better to wait for literally any other tank to initiate and then go in on teamfights. But alone in lane and jungle fights, I don't do as much damage to really kill quick enough before they get away despite landing my CC if I build tank. I've been trying damage builds, but it means I can't really tank like my team wants me to. Part of having that role now obliges me to tank for my team, especially with the abilities I have, it makes sense. As it stands, I can't really engage without dying quickly and so building more damage seems like a waste...again maybe more research is needed, but it feels very clear that they designed her to be more of a protecter/lockdown champion rather than the chargedown/killer I'm more in favor of...which I feel was a bad decision.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=OddOstrich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-16T00:07:01.550+0000) > -The thing is though, she is a relatively weak tank as it stands. Sure she can take a hit, but against four-five people. Giving her more damage and toning down her defenses would make her a "fighter" wouldn't it? Not as bursty as an assassin, not as tough as a tank. That was kind of her defined role, and her secondary role was an assassin. Her utility and additional cc now allows her to build tanky and be useful in a fight, her old kit only had one form of cc so she had to build glass cannon to make her only real asset (damage) into something useful. Durability is mainly sourced from items so to make a tank champion it's more important to make them useful without damage items than it is to make them scale well with defensive stats.
> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-16T00:19:21.684+0000) > > Her utility and additional cc now allows her to build tanky and be useful in a fight, her old kit only had one form of cc so she had to build glass cannon to make her only real asset (damage) into something useful. Durability is mainly sourced from items so to make a tank champion it's more important to make them useful without damage items than it is to make them scale well with defensive stats. Can't argue there, it was almost futile to build her tanky back then, and she could be a bit one-dimensional. Are you saying that because of her additional CC, they decided to make her a tank instead of an assassin then? If they took away the slow on her Q, and maybe even reduced the duration of the stun, would it be enough to merit giving her more bursty damage? Yeah I can agree with that philosophy to building tanks.
TehNACHO (NA)
: >Are all reworks like this? Just change a champion completely on whimsy? It's okay as long as they have the same name and weapon? How could anyone trust Riot to keep true to any of their champions if they could do this to any champion they want? How do you build customer loyalty like that? To answer these directly. No, Poppy is easily tied with Sion in the largest rework (champion relaunch) in the game. Not all reworks follow the formula used to turn Sion and Poppy into their iterations today. The Marksman and Juggernaut reworks are more in line of what you should expect the "average" rework should be. These changes are to break completely broken interactions the champion has with the rest of the game's mechanics. Sion was a mess for half of his kit always being useless depending on how you used him, along with his generally oversimplified play patterns creating artificially binary outcomes based on how high his numbers are. Poppy was a mess for being a tanky burst champion that deceptively got harder to kill when she should otherwise be easy to pick off, and then the gigantic rabbit hole that is her ultimate. As much as you must have liked Poppy, you need to step back and realize that there were things innately wrong with her kit. This question is designed as if we're entitled to our champions no matter what's wrong with them. One, we're not. Two, we could still have release Xin Zhao with us right now. You build customer loyalty by doing what's good for the greater whole than the niche minority. Poppy was an unpopular and artificially unusable champion that causes problems for the game on a mechanical level every time she shows her face. You like her, but I assure you, if she _ever_ stepped out of line, _nobody_ would've liked her.
> [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-16T00:16:08.070+0000) > > To answer these directly. > > No, Poppy is easily tied with Sion in the largest rework (champion relaunch) in the game. Not all reworks follow the formula used to turn Sion and Poppy into their iterations today. The Marksman and Juggernaut reworks are more in line of what you should expect the "average" rework should be. > > These changes are to break completely broken interactions the champion has with the rest of the game's mechanics. Sion was a mess for half of his kit always being useless depending on how you used him, along with his generally oversimplified play patterns creating artificially binary outcomes based on how high his numbers are. Poppy was a mess for being a tanky burst champion that deceptively got harder to kill when she should otherwise be easy to pick off, and then the gigantic rabbit hole that is her ultimate. As much as you must have liked Poppy, you need to step back and realize that there were things innately wrong with her kit. > > This question is designed as if we're entitled to our champions no matter what's wrong with them. One, we're not. Two, we could still have release Xin Zhao with us right now. > > You build customer loyalty by doing what's good for the greater whole than the niche minority. Poppy was an unpopular and artificially unusable champion that causes problems for the game on a mechanical level every time she shows her face. You like her, but I assure you, if she _ever_ stepped out of line, _nobody_ would've liked her. Well it's good to know that not all reworks are like this. It gives me peace of of mind. For like the fourth time I'd like to reply that **I DON'T MISS THE OLD POPPY, I AGREE SHE NEEDED A COMPLETE REWORK. WHY ARE PEOPLE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS ON THAT? I STATED IT IN THE OPENING POST** Well like I said, I was probably being over dramatic. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree. I did not think I was entitled to keeping Poppy the way she was, and every time people talked to me about her, I would go on listing what was wrong with her and why. I've read and watched too many things on the subject and can completely agree that she needed a change and I wanted more people to like her(kinda). And yeah, you're totally right with the whole customer loyalty thing, I was being irrational.
: I was just posting about this in a different thread! -I really miss all these ratios that were all wacky and out of place (usually they were AP ratios). So yeah, I understand that poppy had a totally toxic ult. And yeah, her Q was too high damage for how easy it was to hit. So change her ult, make her Q what it is now.. that is all well and fine! But WHY do we need to kill these off builds? Do we honestly think AP Poppy would be op without the safety of her ult? I don't think so! They could have kept the AP scaling on her Q and E, and just divided the ratio for Q into two parts. BOOM! Tanky new poppy still works the same and now you have a less toxic AP Poppy. Same goes for MF, Gangplank, and Tristana. I don't like losing all of these choices...
> [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-16T00:06:43.015+0000) > > I was just posting about this in a different thread! > -I really miss all these ratios that were all wacky and out of place (usually they were AP ratios). So yeah, I understand that poppy had a totally toxic ult. And yeah, her Q was too high damage for how easy it was to hit. > So change her ult, make her Q what it is now.. that is all well and fine! > But WHY do we need to kill these off builds? > > Do we honestly think AP Poppy would be op without the safety of her ult? I don't think so! > They could have kept the AP scaling on her Q and E, and just divided the ratio for Q into two parts. BOOM! Tanky new poppy still works the same and now you have a less toxic AP Poppy. > > Same goes for MF, Gangplank, and Tristana. I don't like losing all of these choices... I always thought AP Poppy was terrible, but I had fun with it, and so did a lot of other people. Maybe it is the nature of being a competitive game, they simplify their champions so that they don't have problems later down the road or at least make it easier to fix. I don't blame them for it, it's still a smart move, but it is sort of taking the easy way out and makes champions less interesting. Maybe it's just a part of their design for the game, Smite is super fun despite it's simplicity. Maybe guys like us just care more for complexity, and because we're in the minority they go the other direction? Things to consider...
: That first point was for anyone else looking, probably shoulda omitted that. Currently, her role is perfect as a utility tank. She's unique, as she's a barrier to those stupid assasins who can ram in to your group, and has a strong as hell disengage. She is also played as an on-hit proc machine, because her buckler procs everything. Give it time, people will find even more ways to play her. She's being used Top, Jungle, and Support, so there's a lot of diversity there. And one more thing: Riot will gladly screw around with a champion if it is something that is toxic to the game no matter how many people like it. Think about Fiora- People hated her old kit, and the reworked one had a shitty start until people learned how to play her and against her. By shitty start, I mean that people wanted her old kit back, Fiora mains left (thank god) and people considered her weak. Now look at her. Riot itself enjoys taking huge risks, looking to see the end reward rather than the problems on the way there. This has made its fanbase a bunch of toxic babies, because they don't know how to adapt like Riot wants them to. Now I'm just rambling, my bad.
> [{quoted}](name=MasterSomething,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T23:59:49.710+0000) > > That first point was for anyone else looking, probably shoulda omitted that. > > Currently, her role is perfect as a utility tank. She's unique, as she's a barrier to those stupid assasins who can ram in to your group, and has a strong as hell disengage. She is also played as an on-hit proc machine, because her buckler procs everything. > Give it time, people will find even more ways to play her. She's being used Top, Jungle, and Support, so there's a lot of diversity there. > > And one more thing: Riot will gladly screw around with a champion if it is something that is toxic to the game no matter how many people like it. > Think about Fiora- People hated her old kit, and the reworked one had a shitty start until people learned how to play her and against her. By shitty start, I mean that people wanted her old kit back, Fiora mains left (thank god) and people considered her weak. Now look at her. > Riot itself enjoys taking huge risks, looking to see the end reward rather than the problems on the way there. This has made its fanbase a bunch of toxic babies, because they don't know how to adapt like Riot wants them to. > > Now I'm just rambling, my bad. Well I understand that she's perfect for a utility tank. What I'm wondering is why they made her fit into the role and not change her but keep her as a fighter/assassin. Or even just a fighter. I would hardly consider this a risk, it was probably the safest rework you could have done. Her kit was broken or "toxic" and she was unpopular. And sure, I never seen it personally but I'll take your word that people who want a complete reversal on reworks are babies. And I think people are misunderstanding me...**I DON'T WANT THE OLD POPPY BACK, I COMPLETELY AGREE SHE NEEDED A REWORK!** I get she had a bad kit, no one would argue against changing her abilities back! I'm just trying to figure out why they changed her role.
Quepha (NA)
: Because an armored shortstack with a hammer and shield makes people want to play her as a champ that can take a hit and knock people around instead of a bush-camping assassin. Because the ability people most wanted to preserve from her old kit, her dash with conditional stun, is a powerful enemy repositioning tool and cc. Getting the stun is enough a challenge that the payoff in terms of stun duration mean that any half-decent amount of damage scaling on her would allow her to kill champions before their players have a chance to even do anything, which is kind of a game design no-no. If she looks like she can take a hit, she has abilities that move enemies around and stun them, and giving her too much damage would make her toxic, then she's gotta become a tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-15T23:52:04.137+0000) > > Because an armored shortstack with a hammer and shield makes people want to play her as a champ that can take a hit and knock people around instead of a bush-camping assassin. > Because the ability people most wanted to preserve from her old kit, her dash with conditional stun, is a powerful enemy repositioning tool and cc. Getting the stun is enough a challenge that the payoff in terms of stun duration mean that any half-decent amount of damage scaling on her would allow her to kill champions before their players have a chance to even do anything, which is kind of a game design no-no. > > If she looks like she can take a hit, she has abilities that move enemies around and stun them, and giving her too much damage would make her toxic, then she's gotta become a tank. -I'd like to give people more credit for wanting to play a character based on appearance, I mean it's certainly a factor but I feel the more fun a character is will ultimately decide whether or not you play them. At least for casual players like myself. And sure that's what the people want, but I'm saying it wasn't done too well, if anything she should have been more like Illaoi in that case...and also I agree with that, but you forgot the whole "charge in without giving a fuck" factor. -I see your point, it's not fun to play against a champion who can lock you down instantly. And I completely agree that her skills needed changing, but I'm trying to find out if there was a way to accomplish this without changing the play-style and feel of a champion? -The thing is though, she is a relatively weak tank as it stands. Sure she can take a hit, but against four-five people. Giving her more damage and toning down her defenses would make her a "fighter" wouldn't it? Not as bursty as an assassin, not as tough as a tank. That was kind of her defined role, and her secondary role was an assassin.
: Let me say it like this: 1. Kit was beyond toxic, needed outright cleansing 2. Really boring audio lines with little emotion 3. Pathetic animations and well, interaction Besides, they'd rather please a huge crowd than serve the 11 Poppy mains out there.
> [{quoted}](name=MasterSomething,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KO2p2kbp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-15T23:47:14.411+0000) > > Let me say it like this: > 1. Kit was beyond toxic, needed outright cleansing > 2. Really boring audio lines with little emotion > 3. Pathetic animations and well, interaction > > Besides, they'd rather please a huge crowd than serve the 11 Poppy mains out there. 1. No one is arguing that. Read whole post. 2. Agreed, glad it's gone. Comparatively, this new one is annoying to me. 3. Agreed, glad they redid it. That's perfectly fine to cater to the majority of your player base, it's a legitimate business model. But it doesn't help customer relationships to those who are loyal, which is also very important. It also sort of makes super popular champions untouchable or at least harder to mess with than the least popular one because if they really are going for the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". But that's an entirely different discussion, I'm trying to get a discussion going on the change of her role and playstyle. Thoughts?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Bleediss,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=A0dRJMU8,comment-id=00300000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T18:45:09.292+0000) > > league would be more successful without runes/masteries > > as it would be more new player friendly and allow them to actually buy more champions, have fun, stay around, then buy some RP youre wrong, if league lost runes and masteries it would make them less unique. leagues runes/masteries just need a massive overhaul. Like make normal runes 100 ip, and quints 200 ip. and Have masteries 100% unlock at lvl 10
> [{quoted}](name=DreadEcho,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=A0dRJMU8,comment-id=003000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T19:04:01.651+0000) > > youre wrong, if league lost runes and masteries it would make them less unique. leagues runes/masteries just need a massive overhaul. Like make normal runes 100 ip, and quints 200 ip. and Have masteries 100% unlock at lvl 10 I would also be fine with just cheaper runes as well. And I agree that runes shouldn't get removed, it makes the game interesting to mix and match.
: I own every champion and rune page and I still haven't invited any friends to LoL.
I super agree with almost everything that has been said by everyone here. Having recently come back from a hiatus to League, I found the game fun enough, but what I really wanted to get into experimenting with some of the niche runes. After looking at some calculations made by the community, the idea of having to play for such a long time to get all the runes...the idea was so daunting I just closed League and starting looking at my battle.net client and HoTS. Back before I had a job, my goal in League was to see how far in ranked I could go, so that drove me to play and I had enough time to grind mindlessly so I never noticed it... I'm not sure if I can call myself a veteran, having joined the game I think somewhere between season two and three, but I would also be cool with not being reimbursed for my runes or even the rune pages that I prioritized for some reason...I just wish I spent my IP on runes and RP on champions, no one ever told me that's how the system was designed T-T

OddOstrich

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