: Marksman changes coming to PBE in the next couple days
My list of changes for marksman since about mid season 7: Reduce AD gained from items to ~80% of listed value Increase cost of zeal items Decrease crit effectiveness Lower base stats across the board I'm happy to see that most of these are coming to the game in some way, although I'm worried that the damage they can pump out against squishy targets will still make them the most impactful role in every game like they have been since the end of season 5 after assassins were gutted so horribly.
Rioter Comments
Siyther (NA)
: personally i dont think exhaust is broken. It does exactly what it is intended to do, stop burst damage. The reason we are seeing so many running it, is that bburst damage is out of control. With the leth buffs damn near any ad champ can be an assassin.Damage is out of control period. When any viable champ can kill u with one spell rotation, thats a problem, and ppl are running exhaust to keep from getting blown up all the time. It may be a touch strong but it literally hasnt changed in years. So that should tell ppl that ,a summoner that it is either a meta issue or a overall burst problem and not the exhaust itself.
Since they buffed exhaust in s3(4?) its been overtuned, but overtime they've nerfed other summoner spells like ignite, tp, heal, barrier, so exhaust has become the best option by miles. Its like tank fizz: they buffed aspects of his kit to help him in mid lane, but overtime as other tanks got nerfed, he was able to become a ridiculous tank that still output a ton of damage. The potential was always there, but there were better options, so it wasn't as oppressive for a long time. With exhaust, they buffed it a really long time ago, but overtime the alternatives have been repeatedly nerfed, so now it outshines almost all other summoner spells for general purpose utility.
: nah. the other spells need to be buffed to exhausts level.
So an ignite that scales from 90-850 true damage? Because that's about what exhaust prevents. Heal for 750 with a ms buff for 5 seconds? Flash CD to 150s? TP to 150s? All other summoner spells are pretty fine, with the exception that ignite could probably use a little more damage scaling, but only slightly. Exhaust is just super out of control.
Derolus (EUW)
: I think you are just another Assassin that got exhausted and got killed. So many Post in EU and NA Forums are here already to nerf Exhaust. Exhaust is my beloved Spell atm. This is the only way to stop the bustdamage from those lethality abusing Champs. Zed comes to ult me ? Exhaust and im fine Kha jumps on me ? Exhaust and im fine Really. Stop complaining about exhaust. Its the only spell atm with that we can survive this broken meta.
Its a targetable instant cc that basically halves the damage of the target you place it on. If you're getting assassinated, then you're either out of position or not warding properly to see them coming. Either way, its still way overtuned at the moment.
MaeDoSan (NA)
: You have just nerfed every aspect of exhaust and put it down as a list . Riot knows that it can do all those things . What is more important is how to nerf it if it is required.
Now I propose a few things that might make exhaust more balanced. These could be used by themselves, or as a few together This comes directly before the list of changes. I hit on every aspect because I wanted changes to be as flexible as possible. These are all suggested changes on how to nerf it.
Moetaro (EUW)
: What's broken is not exhaust. Exhaust is fine. What's broken is this stupid snowball meta. I still remember the old guides: "use exhaust wisely, use it when the enemy is going to burn his cds so that you dont waste it". Now it is like, woooaaaaahuuuu! exhaust! BOOOOM!. Just stupid.
That's the problem. Its extremely non-punishing to just blow it, especially when multiple members of your team are stacking it.
: I'm not sure it is overpowered. It is a solid disengage, and people like defensive play. I think it is more the preference for defensive. Ignite can get you some good kills, teleport helps a ton in laning phase if you know how to leverage it, ghost can do amazing things on the right champion. You have to consider the bias to easy to use spells as well. Cleanse is one of the best spells to save yourself with, but it is hard to use optimally. Cleanse isn't rare because it's necessarily worse.
Cleanse isn't used often outside of pro play because winning lane is so much more important, and combat summoners like exhaust and ignite allow you to win much more easily than cleanse. Exhaust has become way too dominant over ignite, even on champions that should favor ignite like gangplank, yasuo, zed, and ahri. Items or summoner spells being used outside of their intended purpose is one of the signs that something is out of balance.
Rioter Comments
: Please submit a [Support Ticket](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) and they will look into this. I recommend also providing some evidence that is your name.
None of the support options seem to fit. Is there a specific one I should be using, or just pick a random one and explain the situation?
Rioter Comments
: If you're talking about the custom shop, a rioter on reddit said they won't be doing it because the new client doesn't support it yet. {{item:3073}}
You're telling me Riot **_didn't_** prioritize a feature that would make them money in the new client? *gasp*
Yeniboi (NA)
: If you go 20 minutes without sightstone to rush morellos on a brand....you're gonna feel it. And so is your team.
If you're not a very good brand, it'lll take 20 mins. If you hit your spells and get kills/assists you should have both by 15.
: Negative attitude experience
I have been awarded by Rito Games with the title of "Within the Top 5% of Toxic Players", so I can tell you exactly what he was doing. He was trying to tilt the living shit out of you. As you get higher and higher in rank, you see the same people more often, just due to player pool. So if he runs into you again, maybe the very next game, he knows you are tilted. Also, maybe he is just an asshat. There is always that.
Yeniboi (NA)
: If you're silver read this.
I dunno man, support brand definitely needs morello or mana sustain before sightstone.
: kayle isn't very easy, she is pretty much like adc, needs a good positioning or she is a toast sometimes even before she can pop her ulti
Well you can't lead the charge, but in general her positioning is much more forgiving than the average marksman.
: @RIOT PLEASE HELP WITH MISMATCHED QUEUES.
I'm confused, those teams look fairly balanced to me, except for the plat in the one game. Their mmr may just be bad though.
: What ADC should i get?
If you want to play adc like an assassin, twitch for sure. After his first back, his strategy is basically to stealth into lane and kill his opponent, base, and repeat. If you want to play adc like a marksman, Tristana is super safe after the update to her W that prevents her from being knocked out of the initial jump, and she outputs a ridiculous amount of damage.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Its pretty obvious he's calling out the bullshit fake numbers riot gives with its explanation. If you can honestly tell me that in 11 games you only see ONE person out of the 99 people you see in those matches is toxic and deserving of a ban I would not believe you. The fact they take into account a short window of games instead of overall account from creation is another flaw. Lastly, the fact they give a fuck about language and immediately remove swearing people from the game but let afks, feeders and people that just afk farm all game because "omg bot lane lost gg surrender" keep their accounts for HUNDREDS of matches is horseshit.
Give this man a cookie, he figured it out. :)
: > [{quoted}](name=Schrute Farm Fan,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LqVBJmWA,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-05T05:17:38.450+0000) > > It is the exact same premise. What is idiotic is the fact that you cannot see that taking ONE personal opinion and applying it to EVERY HUMAN ON FUCKING EARTH is a shitty way of arguing. The fact that you continue to prove my point by literally just saying exactly what i was saying and you not seeing it is kinda fucked up but w/e. wrong. its not related. 2ndly this player admits to raging and flaming in chat vs the premade team. and to using offensive jokes in chat that people could be offended by. if people deemed this reportable and they report and riot reviews the influx of reports coming in over a small amount of games and find his content questionable or offensive then it is justified. no one make him speak out and rage in chat, or use offensive jokes but he chose to. but then again we live in a society where no one takes responsibility for our actions, its always someone else's fault like maybe i steal a car go on a high speed chase evading arrest using the stolen car as a weapon ramming at police officers and then running instead of complying then when im shot and killed for committing multiple felonies including assault with a deadly weapon on a police officer then its not my fault?
I would like to point out that I took responsibility and understand that my case definitely should be a model one for chat restriction, but there are many others that go unnoticed. I merely am calling attention to the fact that the system needs to be improved quite a bit.
Rioter Comments
: ELO hell is real
If your mmr is low enough that for every 2 wins you get the same lp as 1 loss, then the system has determined that you are placed well ahead of what you actually should be. If you're embelishing, however, it won't end up mattering as a 66% win rate will carry you out of whatever "hell" you're in. The only way to climb is to just keep playing and putting more games into ranked. Eventually you will improve mechanically and knowledge wise, but the trolls will continue. If you are having trouble against fed enemy solo laners, then I recommend you play those solo lanes instead of adc/sup so those lanes don't become a problem.
Rioter Comments
Mojihito666 (EUNE)
: Dynamic Q lowered toxicity !
Here's a neat little trick I learned to avoid exactly this: Never hover a pick until it is time for you to lock in your champion selection. Sure, sometimes teams might actually want to see what champ you want to play in order to form a comp, but the other 99/100 times the risk of a random banning your champion accidentally is well worth the risk of them doing it to troll you intentionally.
rageyy (NA)
: LF Mid & Top main for climbing, high plat+
My opinion is that you will not get many volunteers, since both of those styles of play are super boring. Sure, you win if you have 2 glorified supports in top and mid, but its so boring I can't see many people volunteering or sticking around for more than a few games.
storm202 (NA)
: Vayne & Runanns Huricane
Vayne already kills almost all champions in less than 10 auto attacks each, she doesnt need to kill every champion on the enemy team in 10 auto attacks total. If they added runaans to vayne, they'd have to hit her with some extremely heavy nerfs to make up for it.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: People just like to complain. Why on Earth that is I couldn't begin to tell you, but they will find any reason to complain if they really want to. Just yesterday I went against a team that complained about my team's composition, simply because we were a 4 man premade with odd picks. They said they felt bad for our pug, who didn't seem to mind our picks in the slightest. [You should have seen the amount of salt that came out of them when Mid Garen, Support Illaoi, and bot lane carry AP Anivia won the match...](http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2117481016/37300379?tab=overview)
: so lb can one shot me with maws and tenacity boots?
Rengar isn't crap now by any means. He still dominates, its just harder for an inexperienced Rengar to successfully pull off a one-shot.
: If you're refering to your latest game, she didn't have a Maw nor tenacity boots, for she knows how to itemize.
: You know the hardest part about playing support?
If you don't have 5 item actives+ trinket, you aren't a true support in my eyes.
: Does anyone use Stormraider's Surge?
Its alright, you just need to look at the comp they are running. If they have a lot of slows and I'm playing someone who is capable of proccing SS, I will definitely run the mastery, since that slow resistance and movement speed is enough to get you out of almost any situation if the other team lacks hard cc.
: what champion has the most toxic player base
{{champion:1}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:62}} I'm pretty sure thats a comprehensive list lol.
: Why you should play TF if you're low elo
TF requires a much better understanding of macro play than the average low elo player possesses, so hats off to you for succeeding with him! I wouldn't recommend him because of that map awareness aspect, but also because he is a little more limited with his damage than other champions. Don't get me wrong, he is capable of doing very high damage with the two (three w/ passive) damaging spells in his kit, but its a lot less forgiving if you miss or one of them gets blocked. Low elo is generally a blood bath "team deathmatch" style of game, and TF can be effective at getting other lanes strong enough to fight, but you run the risk of your lanes falling behind before you can help them and then being at a disadvantage because you lose a potential lane to roam to. If you're performing well on him, continue doing you, but I don't think TF is as suitable for low elo as some other champions that require less game knowledge to succeed with.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000600000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:41:44.636+0000) > > Completely reworking her passive does not look at all like they are perfectly happy with her gameplay... > Did they say it somewhere else in the post or did you rush into this one a little quickly? I made a handy guide http://imgur.com/a/opkeC Simply by clicking on the indicated links, you too can navigate the official boards for the game known as "League of Legends" without looking like an 80 year old grandmother calling up their grandson on the phone to ask him how to "Make it give me the emails"! Amaze your friends as you can stand on your own two feet in this digital age! Save time and posts online as you can understand what people are talking about and have context for the conversations you're trying to hold! All of this can easily be yours today!
My apologies, I misread the author of the post you linked, I thought it was a Riot created thread. Riot has not stated officially their stance on Annie, although as I pointed out earlier, the phrasing that the rioter used in the comment means that Annie will be getting changed, albeit to a lesser degree than some of the other mages.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:35:29.278+0000) > > The problem is that with her current infinite passive, you cannot get close enough to push the minions to her tower and force her into wasting the stun on waveclear. Also, you're talking about late game fights and I am talking about laning. Annie has no problem starting fights and backing out of them in lane since she has the stun. Can't get close enough as who? Many mages have waveclear that simply outranges Annie. Anyone else should still be able to push the wave unless Annie overextends and risks taking a ton of minion aggro or even getting ganked.
Well, aside from the disrespectful and non-intellectual second comment, dodging skillshots in lane is very easy, and pros do it regularly. In teamfights and high-intensity situations its hard, but this post focuses on Annie's zoning in lane. If you watch an LCS match, pro stream, or just high level play in general, count how many skillshots they dodge in lane. The number is very large.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000600000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:41:44.636+0000) > > Completely reworking her passive does not look at all like they are perfectly happy with her gameplay... > Did they say it somewhere else in the post or did you rush into this one a little quickly? I made a handy guide http://imgur.com/a/opkeC Simply by clicking on the indicated links, you too can navigate the official boards for the game known as "League of Legends" without looking like an 80 year old grandmother calling up their grandson on the phone to ask him how to "Make it give me the emails"! Amaze your friends as you can stand on your own two feet in this digital age! Save time and posts online as you can understand what people are talking about and have context for the conversations you're trying to hold! All of this can easily be yours today!
If your interpretation was correct, then they wouldn't be adjusting her kit at all. On the contrary, they are modifying her entire passive, and reworking her other abilities. What the post said was that it would not be a **complete overhaul** such as what they did to sion or mordekaiser. (The post did not namedrop sion and mordekaiser, I'm just trying to make it easier for you to understand what the phrase meant) Maybe if you took a little more time to understand what you read, you wouldn't be so quick to bash and cry 'denial' at someone with a valid dissenting opinion.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:35:29.278+0000) > > The problem is that with her current infinite passive, you cannot get close enough to push the minions to her tower and force her into wasting the stun on waveclear. Also, you're talking about late game fights and I am talking about laning. Annie has no problem starting fights and backing out of them in lane since she has the stun. Can't get close enough as who? Many mages have waveclear that simply outranges Annie. Anyone else should still be able to push the wave unless Annie overextends and risks taking a ton of minion aggro or even getting ganked.
Zed has very high ban rates right now for that exact reason. Diana is a monster in general, which is a whole different topic. Fizz. Lol. Waveclear or not, she can still zone them out without much difficulty. If she walks forward, she just has to dodge skillshots, which is pretty easy to do, and then maintain her presence in front of the minion wave to deny her enemy xp and gold.
: Which you don't care about if you just managed a double kill bot. Even if you didn't manage, you'll lose gold, but not XP, since you came back in time before the tower killed all the minions.
How often do you make a complete roam and make it back to the tower to get the xp when a competent midlaner recognizes that you have roamed? I have never experienced such a miracle, but would be delighted to play duo queue with you so I might, because certainly this must happen to you all the time if you state it with such conviction.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000600000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:41:44.636+0000) > > Completely reworking her passive does not look at all like they are perfectly happy with her gameplay... > Did they say it somewhere else in the post or did you rush into this one a little quickly? I made a handy guide http://imgur.com/a/opkeC Simply by clicking on the indicated links, you too can navigate the official boards for the game known as "League of Legends" without looking like an 80 year old grandmother calling up their grandson on the phone to ask him how to "Make it give me the emails"! Amaze your friends as you can stand on your own two feet in this digital age! Save time and posts online as you can understand what people are talking about and have context for the conversations you're trying to hold! All of this can easily be yours today!
> The champions were chosen based on how well they were doing regarding those points I mentioned above (cohesiveness, health and uniqueness). While I can't speak for the team that chose the champions that will be part of the update, I can say that Annie was not in a spot that we felt that required a big update around her kit (similarly to how Kalista remained mostly unchanged throughout the Marksman update but others like Graves changed quite a lot). Is this what you're referencing? Because this says that they did not think her kit needed an overhaul on the same level as the other champs, whose abilities are being changed because they are generic or bland. It does not say that they think she is healthy and un-needing of change. On the contrary, they are changing her, so it seems they do deem her necessary to change based on either cohesiveness, health, or uniqueness. Of the 4 red comments on the post, this seemed like the only one you could be referring to, but if there was a different post, feel free to let me know!
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:35:29.278+0000) > > The problem is that with her current infinite passive, you cannot get close enough to push the minions to her tower and force her into wasting the stun on waveclear. Also, you're talking about late game fights and I am talking about laning. Annie has no problem starting fights and backing out of them in lane since she has the stun. Can't get close enough as who? Many mages have waveclear that simply outranges Annie. Anyone else should still be able to push the wave unless Annie overextends and risks taking a ton of minion aggro or even getting ganked.
Any and all assassins, (as it should be) Ziggs, Xerath, Ahri, Twisted Fate, Syndra, Karthus, and Veigar all have difficulties with Annie.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:35:29.278+0000) > > The problem is that with her current infinite passive, you cannot get close enough to push the minions to her tower and force her into wasting the stun on waveclear. Also, you're talking about late game fights and I am talking about laning. Annie has no problem starting fights and backing out of them in lane since she has the stun. Can't get close enough as who? Many mages have waveclear that simply outranges Annie. Anyone else should still be able to push the wave unless Annie overextends and risks taking a ton of minion aggro or even getting ganked.
You imply that counterpicking constitutes counterplay, but it does not. There are always risks with pushing, but with proper ward coverage and map awareness, these risks are minimized. For instance, if the jungler was just spotted in bottom or top lane, Annie is free to zone to her heart's content for about 30-45 seconds.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=000600000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T17:41:44.636+0000) > > Completely reworking her passive does not look at all like they are perfectly happy with her gameplay... > Did they say it somewhere else in the post or did you rush into this one a little quickly? I made a handy guide http://imgur.com/a/opkeC Simply by clicking on the indicated links, you too can navigate the official boards for the game known as "League of Legends" without looking like an 80 year old grandmother calling up their grandson on the phone to ask him how to "Make it give me the emails"! Amaze your friends as you can stand on your own two feet in this digital age! Save time and posts online as you can understand what people are talking about and have context for the conversations you're trying to hold! All of this can easily be yours today!
Haha! I like this! But you have not addressed the question.
: On a side note, I am not an Annie player. I tried her in ranked in the beginning of the season, and even in her current state allegedly OP, I still lose, a lot. So I stopped and won't be playing her anymore, whether she is nerfed or not. I have nothing at stake in this thread, nothing to lose. > For instance, if I see a Rengar nerf suggested, I downvote it, because I am a Rengar main and while he is overpowered, changing his abilities instead of numbers would be a change that I do not want _because I play Rengar_. Because you vote according to your biased opinions does not mean I do the same. Do not burden me with your own issues. I main Garen (like in, not Annie), and I mained him before his rework. I gladly recognized he was OP for 2 or 3 patches after the Juggernaut rework. On the 4th patch, when he was finally in line and people where still complaining he was OP, then I told them they were wrong and I was accused of biased opinion toward my main champ, but Garen hasn't received any more nerf up to now, and nobody's complaining that he is OP anymore, so I guess I was right...
Please read above, I have addressed the issue of who votes. Unsatisfactorily, maybe, but I refuse to spend more than 20 minutes at a time posting on the forums, which includes finding all of the studies that show the trends I talk about.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=00060000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T01:56:54.538+0000) > > Just because they are not currently reworking a champion does **not** mean they have no qualms about them. Quepha already answered below. Explicit statement from Riot saying they think Annie is fine **does** mean they have no qualm about her. > > Also, you are saying that of the people who read this post, the ones who care enough voted me down and you up. The people who care are generally the ones with something at stake (the people who play Annie) and as such, would not want to lose power in the kit. Or simply people who like game design and proper balance, and see an imbalanced suggestion so downvote it. But even assuming people vote in their own selfish interest, there would be more people voting against Annie if she really was OP: all the people who main another mid and can't win when she is played against them, and that's more players than people who actually play Annie. So I don't care if your argument is true or false, it is not in your favor, it is not logically valid. > > As for my refutations being illogical, I would greatly appreciate if you could, in a non-bashing manner, explain which parts you are having trouble seeing the logic in, and I would be more than happy to reformat them in way that's easier to understand. That's very rude and highlights pretty well that you are not here to discuss. You assume the only way that we can disagree is because you are right and I do not understand you. But let's go on with factual points: * You say TF zoning and Annie zoning are comparable. They are not, actually they have opposite trade-offs. TF zoning you means he cannot use his basic attack, has to use his spells to CS, and can still poke you with his super long range skillshot. Annie zoning you means she must use her basic attack to CS, cannot use her spells at all and thus cannot poke you. * Last hitting can be hard for low ELO players, that's for sure. But how is that an argument in your favor? I mean, in Platinum, if Annie can zone you, you lose all the CS you would be able to last-hit normally (a lot), and she manages to farm a lot of CS herself, even with only her basic. On the other hand, in lower ELOs, even if she zones you, she won't manage to get all the last-hits herself, and you lose comparatively less than in Platinum, because you wouldn't be able to last-hit all the minions even if she wasn't zoning you. So Annie's zoning should be more of a problem in higher ELOs than in lower ELOs, and yet Annie is more successful in lower ELOs. Why? Because her strength it's not that zoning you're talking about. * "If she uses her Q for farming, the CD is still low enough to trade with you, she just might not always hit her W. The Q alone is enough to push a squishy mid out of lane." Maybe, I don't know. But anyway, this is not an argument in your favor, once again. IF **this** argument is true, it means Annie can win without her stun and that she is not zoning you. So once again, her zoning is not the problem. So these last two arguments of yours, I do not even want or need to discuss if they are true or not, even if they are true, they are not logically in your favor, and yes, your so called "refutations" are not logically valid. And finally "Side note: you're a dirty Annie player": that's mostly wrong, but even if it was true, that's not conclusive of anything unless you assume that I MUST be biased and cannot hold a logical debate. That's called an ad hominem attack, and **that** is a known fallacy. > My friend, you talk about logic, but you just committed two fallacies in as many paragraphs! So in conclusion, I still count 0 fallacy. And I am not your friend.
> Quepha already answered below. Explicit statement from Riot saying they think Annie is fine does mean they have no qualm about her. Unless I missed something, his link possessed no definitive statement, but rather showed that Riot is reworking her passive completely. > Or simply people who like game design and proper balance, and see an imbalanced suggestion so downvote it You can take a class on politics and voting demographics and you'll better understand the point I am trying to make. > So I don't care if your argument is true or false, it is not in your favor, it is not logically valid. Again, take the class. It is valid but I suppose you have not seen the research that backs it up. > That's very rude and highlights pretty well that you are not here to discuss. ? If you find it biting, then that means you are looking deeper than the phrase purports. I ask for you to highlight where I may have stumbled in my explanations so I can fix them. If you are having trouble seeing what I am getting at with the way I worded things, then others may be having the same difficulties. This would hinder my argument, and I would like to avoid any hindrance that stems explicitly from phrasing and not from the ideas themselves. > You say TF zoning and Annie zoning are comparable. They are not, actually they have opposite trade-offs. TF zoning you means he cannot use his basic attack, has to use his spells to CS, and can still poke you with his super long range skillshot. Annie zoning you means she must use her basic attack to CS, cannot use her spells at all and thus cannot poke you. Firstly, TF's Q is a 1200~ missile speed skillshot that can be easily dodged and thus the poke factor is marginal at best. Secondly, poke is exactly what Annie does when she zones with her stun. You either sit back and wait for the wave to come under your tower, or if you misjudge her range slightly you suffer her poke in the form of a stun+Q+W combo. It is not the damage that is so unbalanced, it is the uptime of it, and how much pressure it allows her to apply in lane. It would be much easier to explain with a video so you can see exactly what I'm talking about, because it is hard to quantify exactly how much gold and xp this zoning is worth without physically showing you, as you will just dispute any number I present. (And rightly so, if I do not provide proper proof) > So Annie's zoning should be more of a problem in higher ELOs than in lower ELOs, and yet Annie is more successful in lower ELOs. Why? Because of the mechanically simple and linear design she has as a champion. Don't get me wrong, LoL needs these types of champions for people to learn on, but Annie does one thing really well (zoning and dominating lane by applying infinite pressure) whereas others champions do that specific thing slightly worse but are capable of doing so much more with their kit than is possible with Annie's. At higher elo, versatility is so much more valuable than mechanically simple 1 trick ponies, which is why she is more of a problem in lower elo than higher elo. Also, her base damages and high scaling ratios mean she is much more gold efficient than other champions, so missing cs on her is less punishing than missing cs on a champion like Ziggs. > Maybe, I don't know. But anyway, this is not an argument in your favor, once again. IF this argument is true, it means Annie can win without her stun and that she is not zoning you. Actually, it is an argument in my favor. If Annie is capable of winning without her stun, then the extra zoning she is afforded while her stun is up compounds the problem of her lane dominance. Putting a limit on the uptime of the stun is simply one way to amend the problem. > Side note: you're a dirty Annie player That's just a bit of fun that I put in once I looked you up to lighten the mood, because your sodium levels seemed to be spiking a little bit, and I wanted to continue to have a civil discussion. > So in conclusion, I still count 0 fallacy. And I am not your friend. Not admitting your own mistakes is no way to solve them. I make mistakes all the time, and I greatly appreciate when someone points them out in a non-personal manner. I have tried to make it light when I point them out, but I have not succeeded. You can call yourself whatever you like, but as far as I am concerned, by participating in a debate with me you are indeed my friend. > That's called an ad hominem An ad hominem would be if I said "You're a dirty Annie player, and that's the only reason you would ever say these things" and that was the core of my argument. What I did, however, was place it at the end (to lighten the mood, as stated above) and therefore ensure it was outside of my argument completely.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fancy v2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rObxPRIO,comment-id=0006000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T06:35:36.953+0000) > > Can you please link me this? I was unaware Riot has issued any statements on the matter. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jknzXZlM-annies-rework-for-the-mid-year-mage-update-unofficial
> Pyromania (Passive) – Total rework After casting five abilities, Annie's next ability will be stronger : Desintegrate stuns the target for 1,25 / 1,5 / 1,75 seconds Incinerate deals 30 % more damages in 3 seconds Molten Shield gives to Annie 25/40/55 movement speed which decays over 2,5 seconds. Completely reworking her passive does not look at all like they are perfectly happy with her gameplay... Did they say it somewhere else in the post or did you rush into this one a little quickly?
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Ohana Means Rekt

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