: Donating 1st Buff to your ADC
Talh (NA)
: Two Bans Per Player.
Sounds like a terrible idea. Removing one champ from your games comes with the cost of leaving something else open, and having more than 1 ban for one role gives too much control over what your opponent gets to play without the cost of having to leave strong picks elsewhere open. For you specifically, ban LB and ask someone else on your team to ban Yas. If they don't want to then you just gotta deal. But doubling the chances everyone else has of getting their picks banned just because you don't like 2 champions is a terrible argument.
Mega Noob (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J1UvYafm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-07T21:24:43.833+0000) > > It’s like playing Morde but instead of a strong middle game she is strong late game. But morde is nowhere near useless in early game, he is beast in early in top lane, you cant 1v1 him on any champ unless you get a jungler help.
Tryndamere can all in Morde LVL 1 very easily. I used to think he lost that matchup until I figured that out
: Can we make Crimson Akali a 'Chroma' for infernal akali since that's the skin those guys bought?
Since Crimson Akali was basically a chroma, just bring it back as a chroma on her base skin and make it have nothing to do with Infernal.
: {{item:3153}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3080}} {{item:3161}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3095}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3046}} Not saying ap don't have options, but ad has way more to choose from
Half of the items you posted don't even have CDR. What are YOU talking about?
: I think you underestimate just how good Mercurial Scimitar is if you think Zhonya's is better. Not only does Scimitar cleanse CC, it also gives you a huge burst of movement speed.
And you overestimate how quickly most ADCs kill most mages. You are not getting 3 shot with one right click until like 3 items+, while your win condition is consistent pretty much post-6. And if the ADC went Maw or Mercurial that ADC is not killing you with autos faster than you can kill with your spell rotation at 3 items.
: While I do think that there is a world where adc's get somewhat more durable in exchange for late game damage that's more reasonable level compared with other champs (way too high right now for many), I'd largely agree with everything else you say. And there are options for adc's out there... maw, ga, bt, and whatnot... hell even going frozen mallet. But it all comes at a cost to dps and burst damage for them which they aren't willing to pay. They laugh when other roles "greed" and get blown up for going full squishy, but when it happens to them it's all "buff adc" "adc too weak". And sadly Riot, boards, players, etc. have all largely bought into this mentality for quite some time now... all you have to do to prove this is look back at changes in past 2 years or so and compare to earlier seasons: everyone wants lethality buffed even though it was in a good spot until... it's buffed and limits adc's, then nearly insta-nerfed compared to how long other crap is allowed to last. adc's still weak? introduce league of ardent censer. tp too strong? nerf cast time and then also have adc's abuse it until cd gets nerfed too. But wait... that's leading to toplaners taking ignite and having more kill threat to adc's... better nerf ignite cuz does too much damage to adc etc. etc. Adc is SUPPOSED to be PART of a TEAM. Where all members contribute some combination of damage, cc, and/or durability. But it gets pushed more and more to game where you can't win fight if your adc dies first no matter how low you get other enemies in exchange for just your adc and... adc kills 4 out of 5 enemies basically off their damage alone if you are going to ace enemy team. First off... that's bullshit and it's not the way the game was designed to be. But it exists that way because everything has become catered to and revolves around adc/bot lane. Second off, gee I wonder why everyone wants to try to gun you down at start of fight adc?.... Can't think of ANY reasons at all when you look at it like that. So you don't want that kind of extreme attention on shutting you down at the start of every fight and keeping you behind all game? Then maybe be a reasonable class in terms of the power you wield instead of crying any time you aren't made into exclusive op carry that 1v9's everything. I'm so sick of hearing how it's unfair that other champs have stronger early or mid game than some adc in bot lane. First off... that's perfectly reasonable... it's called a power curve. Most adc's spike mid/late and late game where you have more power than basically anyone else in game. So no shit... if you don't want an aram sniping contest with 5 adc vs 5 adc... other roles are going to have to be more valuable/powerful at other points in the game. But their power curve leaves them weaker than you at another point in the game so that it all balances out - at least in theory. Whining swain is stronger than cait mid game is like a swain complaining full build cait is stronger than him late game. What would you tell the swain doing that? Get over yourself swain... I'm supposed to be stronger now. So uh... adc's get over yourselves... other champs are supposed to be stronger than you at X point in the game - that doesn't mean you need a freaking buff. Second off adc's aren't even weaker in the lane. Just look at pro play. There's as many examples of adc beating out viktor bot as there is of viktor bullying adc in lane... if not more where the adc wins. You can see adc's at every point of the game winning trades and teamfights where they're supposedly "weak as hell" at that point in the game and the other champ is supposed to be at their strongest. Sure there's a few bs champs out there right now, but that's a few champs... which everyone else besides players maining them would also like to see nerfed. So instead of going and hating on an entire class because 1 example of that class is broken, or crying that you need a buff when you don't... try being reasonable. There's so little of this on the boards these days in regards to balance and other similar topics and it makes me want to puke.
And it's fine that other roles are stronger earlier in the game. The problem arises when the game is either consistently over or decided _before_ a late game ADC can reasonably even scale, or the late game ADC that was weak all early/mid game isn't even that strong when late game finally arrives. In that kind of a game state those champions become completely pointless. It's easy to cherry pick scenarios to justify your stance and call ADCs unreasonable, but the simple fact of the matter is that your early game champ is guaranteed to get their turn at being more impactful. The complaints weren't about you having your time to shine, they were about ADCs looking for _theirs_, but not being able to reach it before the game is over or out of control, or if they get there _still_ not being strong enough to matter. Also, ADCs CAN'T 1v9, by design. We take the tradeoff of being reliant on at least one other person in all stages of the game for the promise of being the key to putting the game away when properly played around. They are the best class overall to pair with a support, which is why they can beat Viktor in Bot Lane. You don't see those same ADCs beating him in Top. So I, for one, get it. I'm **fine** with your class doing what you do and being more impactful through the early stages of the game. That you have the ability to pop off and snowball the game hard while you're in the primetime of your power spike. Hell, I'm even fine with the fact that without peel or sustain I'm dead if I get engaged on. All _I_ want is to get _my_ turn at least semi-consistently in close or even games, so my champion isn't an afterthought and has SOME say on whether or not we win. But I can understand how that would seem like too much to ask, when you're as bitter as you seem to be in your post.
Saianna (EUNE)
: Could someone explain me why EVERYONE BUT MAGES get items that have some gimmicks for abilities and CDR or overall good allrounder items with CDR on top? And then human-shaped amebas dare say rito favoures mages. EDIT: I wasn't specific. I meant, why mages do not get items with abilities (be it active or passive) that affect CD of their abilities such as the spear does for whoever buys it. Abilities (spells) are keyword when descibing mages. They should have items that enhance their casting. Not fighters bruisers or ADCs, because that is F.... bonkers. Edit: cool that people downvote without reading cause post is already downvoted and "better stick with the group" :P
Uhh... {{item:3157}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3905}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3100}} What are you talking about?
Akrid415 (NA)
: I went against Lucian top
Rush {{item:3047}}, build {{item:3076}}, look for a fight lvl 2 after getting xp advantage, after lvl 2 let him push, call for ganks and all in post 6 as soon as he uses E. If you froze lane instead of him he would have been easy camp material. Plus, going Luc top means your team comp was probably better than theirs late game unless they specifically drafted around Lucian Top. Stuff like top {{champion:236}} or {{champion:67}} are mostly just cheese picks. If you build smart, go even, and make them overextend in lane you can just all in or have your jungler farm them.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: >ADCs have been mostly neither for a while now. What about {{champion:236}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:498}} and even {{champion:15}} {{champion:429}} Ill admit that some non-marksmen are played over other adcs like Tristana or Ashe so maybe they are weak, but when was the last time there werent ~5 adcs that are absolutely broken? And is the class really weak when Lucian 1v5s at 2 items?
Are you trying to have an actual discussion, or just exaggerate and meme? I can't tell. ADC as a role has not been strong for some time. The impact that Bot Lane had on the game was greatly diminished since 8.11, and games were much more about mid/jungle carrying games then it was about getting the ADC fed and winning through them. Is that starting to shift? Maybe, we'll see. ADCS have not been required since AP damage to turrets and ADC base stats were changed. Which is why bot bruisers like Irelia and Yasuo were a thing for a while, and bot mages like Heimerdinger, Karthus, Veigar and Cassiopeia are viable if not strong to this day. As for the ADCS that survived or were strong, solid picks during this time that you mentioned... what about them? Of that list, the only ones you could make a case for being broken are Lucian, maybe Ezreal, and a few months ago Kaisa. Are you claiming a class isn't weak as a whole because 2 of the champs in that class are good? That's not a very high standard to reach. Also consider that for the brusiers/mages that could go bot, duo lane isn't even their optimal position. Meaning these champs in their second or even third preferred position were better than most of the ADC class in their sole viable position. If you recognize that, I'm not sure what you're arguing here.
HàrrowR (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1w9sL14,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-02-05T15:19:47.273+0000) > > I played Garen once going Cleaver into full tank. My E did something like 600 to 1200 damage to somebody in one full go. I knew instantly "oh in specific scenarios this champion is braindead." Bruisers are braindead mostly, i got arclight Yorick skin and i wanted to give him a shot, mind you i've never touched toplane in my life and i havent played Yorick since his rework, and i was still beating top lane mains as an adc main playing a champ for the first time, hell i just got into gold 2 playing top lane yorick with 58% winrate. People here saying carries are stat check champs but completely forget about braindead champs like Nasus or Trynda that literally just right click you and you can't do shit cause they can't be killed either, at least carries have to kite and position
All the people who call glass cannon DPS characters stat check characters are just exposing the fact that they don't actually know what the term means. "They do damage through autoattacks, stat check champion, durr" No.
: I mean that's how tanks are balanced lmao
While I doubt that, the difference is I'm not advocating telling tank players their champs should be garbage because Impact abuses Sion in Top lane or some other irrelevant shit.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: >So what's your problem? My problem is that adc mains keep thinking they are weak when they arent game deciding gods that can duel assassins, despite them always being a required class. Like right now, theres a few champs like viktor and jayce creeping into bot lane. What happens? Adcs get insta buffed xd Same thing happened a few months ago Theres like what? 15 adcs? Im sure they can share their lane just like the 20 mages that cant viably go top.
So, hyperbole and railing against arguments that nobody is making, got it. "Required" and strong are not equivalent, and actually have nothing to do with each other. And ADCs have been mostly neither for a while now. And you keep bringing up that "share your lane" argument that means nothing. Marksmen mostly aren't good in solo lanes, solo laners mostly aren't good in the duo lane. The fact that there are multiple classes balanced around solo lanes has nothing to do with marksmen. If it was really about that kind of parity in what classes can play what roles, ADCs would actually need to be tuned to compete in solo lanes, and I'm pretty sure you don't want that.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: Adcs can sololane tho lol, they literally have the best of both worlds early game, range and AD. Lucian, Tristana and some others have been played in sololanes everywhere including pro play historically.
LOL, generally no, for the most part the vast majority of ADCs cannot solo lane and ADCs are not balanced to be capable of solo laning either. There are a handful that could manage it in specific situations, but that's just like when you edited your post to say Fizz can ONLY mid when you originally said his jungling was bad. You need more to solo lane than just range and AD, usually some combination of CC, gapcloser, tankiness, or burst, which is why the only ADCs that were able to solo lane all had either gapclosers (Lucian, Ez, Trist) or Burst and CC (Varus). And is also why unless the champ is overtuned or fills a specific comp niche, almost every other class in the game are more viable solo lanes than marksmen. Also, by your standards, a handful of champs in other classes are able to play in the duo lane too, just like the handful of ADCs that can play solo lanes. They usually aren't the most viable in bot lane just like the ADCs aren't the most viable in the other lanes. So what's your problem?
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: If syndra and Fizz can top lane, Draven and Tristana can mid/top lane as well. Doesnt matter if they are optimal or not right?
There's a difference between not being in your optimal position on the map and not being able to 1v1 the enemy champion or survive ganks on your own. But sure, Draven and Trist can go Top. As long as they bring the support with them, and then you have Australian lanes. It still means ADCs can only viably play in the one lane.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: You know how many mages there are that cant viably go anywhere other than mid? Why do they have to share a lane with assassins, tanks {{champion:3}} {{champion:14}} and bruisers {{champion:39}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:6}} ?
As long as junglers exist there are 2 solo lanes, not 1. Solo laners can exist in either, whether they are optimal for one or the other or not. Mages aren't sharing their lane, they are up against multiple other classes in solo lanes. This is not the same as needing to literally share a lane with a support to be able to viably lane at all. Did you originally remember but edit to forget when Fizz Top was a thing? And you know what class Mages consistently DON'T have to worry about in Mid? Marksmen. They can't beat the viability of the classes you listed in solo lanes, so why should the classes you listed be more viable than them in the one duo lane? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
: You just proved a point, if ADC doesn't have enough coordination is soloq to be doing what they can, should the be buffed to compensate that? Of course not, if it's so ass then pick another role. If it isn't fun then don't play.
"Your champions deserve to suck because they can function in a different version of the game that you don't play in. So just quit the game if you don't like it." Do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds?
EndWolf (NA)
: Akali Future Ideas
Instead of removing Q heal entirely, make it mirror old Akali Q in that it marks enemies and she only heals by hitting Q marked enemies with AA. Revert all those stupid restealth nerfs they did while dancing around the problem of true stealth. Now that she can't stealth under enemy towers anymore there's no reason to make the ability weaker outside tower range. She has a garbage WR now, it's only going to get worse next patch, so they are going to need to buff her considerably to get her out the gutter and make up for the fact that they're nerfing her not because it's statistically justified, but because people are crying about her gimmicks.
: silver bolts should work like wuju style
TL;DR version: "Vayne counters my champions, gut her please" Vayne can be mechanically outplayed. Just because your champion of choice doesn't have the tools to easily do so does not mean the possibility doesn't exist. Burst or CC. Flash on her if you have to. If you're an immobile melee juggernaut playing from behind trying to 1v1 a 4+ item Vayne with ult up and you can't flash, CC, burst her then hold that shit, you aren't supposed to win that situation.
: Kai'sa needs to be nerfed
They nerfed her a while ago, Lucian and Ezreal are both better right now, and IDK where you get double Lucian's pick rate from. 51% WR is overtuned? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
: According to op.gg , Karth sitting at 55% Winrate in 3 lanes and yet no nerfs
Karthus is strong in every lane? Better nerf {{champion:84}}.
Ahris (NA)
: Ahri vgu when >.>
When she actually needs one.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 25
Definitely not a fan of replacing the damage reduction on Phantom Dancer with a shield. Is it too much to ask for a new item to fit that niche instead of messing with the Zeal item that fills a good niche? Also, overcapping on crit was a concern due to the IE double crit chance passive. The zeal items are 25% chance to solve that problem but you're removing the double crit passive from IE at the same time. That defeats the purpose, and just introduces a new problem of needing 4 crit items to hit full crit. The build just needed some adjustments to get online quicker, not a revert to a substantially worse version of what we had pre 8.11. In short, I think you should hold the IE and PD passive changes, keep the 25% crit chance on zeal items, and perhaps explore a new crit item that gives lifeline. Thanks for the hard work.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: Meta was named after the ardent due to it being the most dominant and meta-defining item, but if you seriously think that enchanters and enchanters only made ADCs broken during s7 then i don't know what to say. There were three problems with ADCs in s7. First, ridiculous peel from enchanters. That's on them. Second, ridiculous waveclear from Statikk+IE. 1 AA which clears entire wave? Sounds fun. This is entirely on ADCs. Third, ADCs DPS was too strong, and spiked too early. We all remember famous Tristana power spike with IE+Statikk. We all remember single crits half-hping squishies due to 250% crit damage and 400 dmg from stattik crits. ADCs were doing much more damage than mages without having their downsides. The point is that ardent meta happened not because either ADCs or enchanters were broken. Both of them were broken, plus they synergized too well with each other.
Before 8.11 the last time IE's damage was touched was a 5 AD buff in 6.12. Shiv got its waveclear buff in 6.1 and damage in 6.3. So you're claiming crit ADCs were broken since the start of season 6? I think not. Conversely, ardent censer was getting continual buffs until 7.2, and didn't start getting nerfed until 7.17. Ardent meta happened because they overbuffed ardent censer and enchanter supports, plain and simple.
Hügö (EUW)
: Lol again the try to blame something else. The problem was that marksmen were to strong to fast. Ardent did just what it was designed for, buffing the marksmen. Guess what happened as marksmen players tried to push the blame on ardent? It got nerfed. Did the problem go away? No, so marksmen players blamed something else.
Lol, wrong. After ardent was nerfed the ADC ROLE was in a managable state just like it always was without enchanter supports. It was specifically crit items that were thought to spike too fast and too hard, and Riot had the bright idea that while they were at it they should make it easier for solo lane champs to play in bot, and for comps without ADCS to take objectives. And it doesn't really help your stance that ADCs were OP at the time when once they were hit with all of that they became practically useless.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: The problem is, that both ADCs and enchanter supps were broken at the time. Enchanters gave ADCs ridiculous amount of stats and peel, but ADCs were the role which could use these stats and peeling with no risk and no room for failure at all. Also back in ardent meta crits still were overbearing, with stattik+IE doing 400 proc damage+600-900 AA damage+clearing entire wave. There's a reason why after ardent gutting in preseason meta still resolved around crit carries, until the stattik+RFC changes.
Your argument is claiming a whole lot that requires way more than "ardent meta" and "crit items". First of all, being the optimal recipient of an OP ability doesn't make the recipient OP just because the ability is. That's a reach. Without the enchanters ADCS did not take over the game by themselves, they had the same weaknesses then as they do now. Only now they don't have specific strengths to balance it. Crit carry ADCS were still optimal because lethality was nerfed. And even then that doesn't prove ADC was broken, unless "broken", "optimal", "necessary" and "viable" all mean the same thing in your head. It was primarily Ardent meta where bot lane could 2v8. Previously to that crit ADC was a powerful win condition, but not to the point where it invalidated the other roles. The swing in power started when Riot started pumping more agency and free gold into SUPPORT to make that role feel better to play, so to say ADC was also broken without having any particular change geared toward them directly makes little sense, unless you claim that just by being viable in game, necessary for objective control and optimal in bot lane made them broken, which isn't a sensible argument. And it's impossible to point to any one of the 8.11 changes and say what was needed or unnecessary because Riot pulled the trigger on all the nerfs at once, on top of moving what used to be ADC specific game utility (objective control) to be more universal, which dumpstered them for a while, and they've been in a pretty sorry state since.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: Yeah, and these posts for tanks/mages are labeled too as mage/tanks mains/adorers. No offence to anyone, but threads like these bring nothing to balance discussions.
LMAO how the hell is this thread a balance discussion? It's literally a fill player commenting on how crappy ADC feels to play. If you wanted to discuss balance maybe you came to the wrong thread.
Naalith (NA)
: I have no clue how ADC mains play this role with any regularity.
Unfortunately for me, my favorite champs in the game are mostly ADCs. Been recently trying to branch out to jungle and other lanes more, but having to completely abandon your playstyle and pick champions you don't like as much feels almost as bad as struggling to make an impact on ADC. That said, I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone that seriously wants to climb. You have to play much more carefully and rely much more heavily on your team, and there isn't really any tactical benefit to it over any other carry role anymore.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: Well if you seriously disagreed about ADCs being "broken" during ardent meta then it was obvious you're an ADC main, they're always biased.
Or because what was actually broken during the Ardent Meta was what the item was actually used for. Shields, heals, and passive buffs to the ADC. In short, the enchanter support was what made bot lane broken, not the ADC benefiting from it. That's why it was called the Ardent Meta in the first place.
nelogis (EUW)
: A totally non Gangplank biased suggestion for the upcoming crit changes
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
These changes are more reserved and easier to understand than the first ones, but I don't think they do much to make crit builds any better than they are currently. - PD is a great item as is. A defensive crit item is welcomed, but to have it at the expense of PD's current passives is a loss. - The needed change of reducing crit items crit chance to 25% was based on IE's new double crit chance passive. It doesn't make sense to lower crit chance AND revert the IE. - The problem with the current overcap is that the wasted crit chance factors into the Gold efficiency of the items. If we reduce the crit chance by 5% it should warrant a price reduction as well. Crit feels bad because of how long it takes to come online, and this isn't addressing that issue. - Stormrazor still needs a change to synergize better with full crit builds - Crit back on ER is fine, but it just looks like a worse item overall than its current iteration and past crit iteration.
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bBQgEPQ,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-07T19:38:14.618+0000) > > {{champion:79}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:4}} {{champion:154}} > > Don't really care if she uses W and your decent at them. Why should someone have to play a specific champion to be able to fight another champion? that's absolutely poor/toxic game design
KnifeCat (OCE)
: Sylas might be the biggest balance nightmare in the history of League
In b4 they nerf the crap out of his W or E and he becomes shitty, and people still complain anyway.
: Why Akali is the most flawed champion in League of Legends history
The hyperbole is crazy, and I've never seen a champ so allegedly broken struggle so hard with such a consistently low win rate. It's almost like the people complaining don't play Akali and don't know how to fight her. That wouldn't be surprising though, considering how much she's banned. In reality, Akali is only good in high elo as a situational pick, because you need to be really good on her to take advantage of her strengths and snowball, and a number of champs can beat her outright. But the hysteria over true stealth and the confirmation bias lead to her being labeled "MOST BUSTED CHAMPION EVAR!!1!1!" when she's far from it.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Trinity force irelia beats any adc with boots 2 stormrazor and rfc. 3700 gold beats over 6k gold. Not gonna talk about that one huh?
Of course not, that wouldn't suit the narrative of false equivalency OP is presenting. Granted, even if we took that at face value, it would beg the question that if "marksman items" are cheaper and scale better, why isn't Irelia building them?
: > [{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0wrMKxvo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-06T09:44:36.795+0000) > > ADCs have 95% pickrate as bottom carry, oh no they're so weak, deploy buffs at once!! They feel entitled to bot and when mages or fighters decide to step foot in there they get angry. Meanwhile ADC have shown up in top mid and jungle frequently throughout the years with decent success and they tell us to deal with it.
When a bot lane ADC becomes a meta pick in any solo lane they get nerfed out of the lane. The only botlane ADC that is even semi-decent in the jungle is Twitch, and he's primarily a cheese pick. Stop lying.
Hügö (EUW)
: Stop telling marksmen needs buffs. They are in a perfect spot, while all other shit is just to strong.
Then they aren't in a good spot, since they have to play in the same game as all the other shit...
: > [{quoted}](name=OmegaNITRO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lOpt8s4,comment-id=00040004000200000001,timestamp=2019-01-06T07:07:56.537+0000) > > Until it was found that ADCs were more effective in the duo lane. People know what the more efficient tactics are. It is impossible to return to Season 1. And instead of modify this (as they did with all other classes) they left it be. > First of all, this &quot;secondary work&quot; you refer to exists in your head and nowhere else. What was Riot planning to do to make ADCs viable mid? Cite the planned changes. Oh right, the changes were to allow other classes to go into BOT lane, not to move ADCs to MID. > > Second, ADCs got sweeping buffs because Riot realized that nerfing ADCs to the point where other classes were a better choice even in bot lane effectively gutted the entire class. Or maybe Riot stepped back and realized that the bot lane players play ADCs not because they are the most optimal in bot, but because they WANT to play those champions. And that the people complaining about bot lane &quot;lacking diversity&quot; don&#x27;t actually play the role, and are just salty that bot lane players didn&#x27;t need to learn multiple classes. Well I mean it was pretty obvious once they left bot, then they'd be worked on to go to other lanes. It's common sense unless we just sit with this commonality that "Nu=uh Riot wasn't going to do anything" which is rather silly. I get that people like to go "Oh well what about <x> class" (which I'll get to) but let's save that for the next point. And no, apparently "they want to play ADC' isn't the case because after ADCs became worse, players played other things. That's a fallacy to assume "oh they're popular because people want to play them". If that was the case, you'd see champions go into bot lane that are popular. Yasuo can still work bot. Don't see him that much anymore. Seems like there's a more effective, useful option that has zero to do with fun. > Again: > > &quot;If ADCs wanting to be the optimal choice in bot lane is &quot;special treatment&quot; then so are bruisers and mages being viable in more than one lane, as that is not possible for most ADCs.&quot; > > Most of the times when other classes are bad in a certain role, those same champs could _go somewhere else_. Like if the mages in bot don&#x27;t work out there, they can take their asses back to mid. And when classes aren&#x27;t viable, this is not something to strive for. > > Most ADCs can be laned against just fine in solo lanes, and are kept that way. In fact, so much so that they aren&#x27;t viable in those lanes. Your idea of &quot;able to be laned against&quot; means laned against where ADCs have the fundamental advantage, which naturally means the ADCs will get stomped in solo lanes too. And here we come to the biggest flaw of the argument which all falls apart. See: Bruisers have had stages where they're bad picks and don't get picked. So too have mages, albeit not quite as often because of how many mage variants there are. ADCs have _never_ had this. Even during the years of "Lul ADC in 20XX" meme peaks, they **were still great to pick in bot lane**. There has never been a time in league's history were ADC was bad. Every other class has been bad at points or needed help. Not ADC. Hell, even in the 8.11 ADCmaggeddon? Lucian, Ezreal and Kai'sa still topped the charts. ADC, factually, has never truly been bad. Even so, when classes are bad, they get changes to help them. Traditional supports save for maybe Karma were pretty shit for all of Season 8 and are getting more help now. Yet they don't complain half as much because they know the game goes through phases _and_ there are other supports to play. THIS is why ADC is a spoiled class and THIS is why ADC will always want special treatment: ADC simultaneously wants a role all to themselves, to always be a viable (and by extent of role monopoly, optimal) pick and refuse to accept that there could ever be a situation where they're not because imagine having to play something else like every other role in the game.This is also why they need work so that they can fall in line with everyone else while also allowing other roles to maybe be allowed to play their champ. The fact is that for the health of the game in the longest of long terms, ADC does need work to get out of bot lane and allow other people to get in there. Their monopoly stifles design for ADCs (which is why they have such low diversity in almost every meta) and it causes more homogeneity for the game than any sort of rune, mastery or damage meta. And no, the whole class won't be bad because apparently Riot can utterly gut the stats on every ADC in the game yet still have 3-4 rise to the top even in a meta and patch that doesn't favor them.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lOpt8s4,comment-id=000400040002000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-06T10:07:48.504+0000) > > And instead of modify this (as they did with all other classes) they left it be. What? What was there to modify? It's how the class fundamentally works! ADCs, being an AA dependent class, spike on items more than levels. Being squishy with little self peel means they need outside help to make it through lane more than other carries. So they don't mind splitting XP to farm safely, and benefit more from an ally always in lane with them. You're looking at the optimization of the class as an issue only because that isn't how OTHER classes work. That's nonsense. > Well I mean it was pretty obvious once they left bot, then they&#x27;d be worked on to go to other lanes. It&#x27;s common sense unless we just sit with this commonality that &quot;Nu=uh Riot wasn&#x27;t going to do anything&quot; which is rather silly. I get that people like to go &quot;Oh well what about &lt;x&gt; class&quot; (which I&#x27;ll get to) but let&#x27;s save that for the next point. Was it? What steps were taken to do such a thing? When did Riot ever state they were trying to do that? Diversity talk ONLY referred to bot lane. And in the meantime, I guess everybody that had their champ pool dumpstered was just supposed to be happy about that? "Just be ass for an indefinite amount of time, I'm sure your champs will be worth playing again in some other lane... someday." Meanwhile Yasuo/Cass/Irelia get to be good choices in whatever lane they want, right? I have no idea what makes you think That's even acceptable, much less what SHOULD have happened. > And no, apparently &quot;they want to play ADC&#x27; isn&#x27;t the case because after ADCs became worse, players played other things. That&#x27;s a fallacy to assume &quot;oh they&#x27;re popular because people want to play them&quot;. If that was the case, you&#x27;d see champions go into bot lane that are popular. Yasuo can still work bot. Don&#x27;t see him that much anymore. Seems like there&#x27;s a more effective, useful option that has zero to do with fun. Your argument makes little sense. The majority of Bot lane players in 8.11 either - continued to play ADCs even though they sucked and just ended up leaning even heavier on their teammates OR - Stopped playing the role, either by switching to a different one or quitting outright. Other champs were technically more viable in bot lane, but their pick rates in bot remained low, because they were still MORE effective in the lanes they USUALLY play in. And most bot players never WANTED to pick those champs bot ANYWAY. > And here we come to the biggest flaw of the argument which all falls apart. > > See: Bruisers have had stages where they&#x27;re bad picks and don&#x27;t get picked. So too have mages, albeit not quite as often because of how many mage variants there are. ADCs have _never_ had this. Even during the years of &quot;Lul ADC in 20XX&quot; meme peaks, they **were still great to pick in bot lane**. > > There has never been a time in league&#x27;s history were ADC was bad. Every other class has been bad at points or needed help. Not ADC. Hell, even in the 8.11 ADCmaggeddon? Lucian, Ezreal and Kai&#x27;sa still topped the charts. ADC, factually, has never truly been bad. Even so, when classes are bad, they get changes to help them. Traditional supports save for maybe Karma were pretty shit for all of Season 8 and are getting more help now. Yet they don&#x27;t complain half as much because they know the game goes through phases _and_ there are other supports to play. LOL, pretty sure people complain when the champs they want to play are bad, regardless of class. When ADCs sucked previously they were still picked because their class strengths were still NECESSARY. The need for AD/AS to take objectives efficiently meant you still needed an ADC, even though they were dead weight by themselves. And even then if you had a mage that could do that job it worked just as well (remember Ziggs bot?) Recent changes mitigated that need. You don't need AD to take objectives at all anymore. So ADCs are not mandatory anymore, but are still just as low agency as ever. So NOW if they suck as a class, there is NO benefit in picking one. You trade your agency for nothing. That isn't something you can say for ANY other class that fell out of meta, that there is no objective reason to even pick them at all. This is not something that ever should be allowed to stand, so equating it to times were assassins, bruises or mages weren't the most effective against the popular team comps of the time does nothing for your argument. You just want ADCs to be bad for an extended period of time, because other classes have been bad before. That's what you're saying. > THIS is why ADC is a spoiled class and THIS is why ADC will always want special treatment: ADC simultaneously wants a role all to themselves, to always be a viable (and by extent of role monopoly, optimal) pick and refuse to accept that there could ever be a situation where they&#x27;re not because imagine having to play something else like every other role in the game.This is also why they need work so that they can fall in line with everyone else while also allowing other roles to maybe be allowed to play their champ. "You had this ONE part of the map where you could go (while needing to depend on the rest of your team 24/7) consistently. It doesn't matter that OTHER classes potentially could play EVERY OTHER ROLE IN THE GAME and you CAN'T, they weren't guaranteed to at certain points in time, so you're spoiled and need to have the mid and top laners be better in the one lane you exist in than you are." This is your argument. If you can't see how ridiculous it is, IDK what to tell you. Yes ADCs were consistently necessary. That was the advantage of the class, and they had plenty of weaknesses to counterbalance that. You seem to think that every class needs to be the same to have parity, and that's not how it works. It's perfectly fine that different classes do different things, and what you call "spoiled" was nothing more than ADCs having a unique niche in the game. And they paid for it with personal agency. > The fact is that for the health of the game in the longest of long terms, ADC does need work to get out of bot lane and allow other people to get in there. Their monopoly stifles design for ADCs (which is why they have such low diversity in almost every meta) and it causes more homogeneity for the game than any sort of rune, mastery or damage meta. And no, the whole class won&#x27;t be bad because apparently Riot can utterly gut the stats on every ADC in the game yet still have 3-4 rise to the top even in a meta and patch that doesn&#x27;t favor them. That isn't anything resembling a fact as you can't even state what change would accomplish your end goal, and have no data on how the change would affect game health, as not only has such a change not happened, but you Don't even know what the change IS. Other than make ADCs suck in lane. Ruining the experience for entire subsections of your player base by arbitrarily dumpstering their characters because "they've never been unplayable so they must be unfair, derp" isn't good for the health of any game in any term period.
: >"They justify marksmen being weak by clinging to the fact that bot lane players still choose marksmen in most games. The fact that most of those marksmen can't viably be played in any other lane doesn't matter to them." I never said that actually. The problem is that to start working on ADCs outside of bot lane, you have to first fix them in bot lane or else you end up with situations exactly like another comment mentioned with Lucian where they're both the best bot lane _and_ in other lanes. And for what it is worth, there are situations where adcs can be in other roles. We started back in Season 1 with ADCs being mid laners. >somehow, not only did neither you nor Riot have any concrete idea on how or when that would be accomplished, and still don't, you were perfectly OK with bot lane players having their entire champion pools and playstyles being gutted and made ineffectual in the meantime. >You call it special treatment, but I don't see anyone that actually wants to play the game being happy about their entire wheelhouse being shut out of the meta entirely in the span of one patch. Well, actually, there was a pretty clear idea of what needed to happen: ADCs needed to be able to be laned against because they're overbearing unless you're loaded to fuck with free shit (Mordekaiser). Problem is the secondary work that should have happened didn't because "lul adc 2018" and ADCs got sweeping buffs. And I do call it special treatment because certain classes have been shut out of the meta for far longer. Boards likes to complain about tanks being terrible for patch-after-patch save for 1-2. Assassins were completely fucked for the whole ardent meta. Fighters/bruisers were terrible top lane until conquerer. Yet none of these classes got the lightning quick reaction ADCs did because they're used to having to swap out their roles all the time. Fact is, ADCs do get special treatment and instead of changing things so they can be treated just like everyone else, ADCs want to keep the special status while also being confused when people say their class is all sorts of fucky.
>We started back in Season 1 with ADCs being mid laners. Until it was found that ADCs were more effective in the duo lane. People know what the more efficient tactics are. It is impossible to return to Season 1. >Problem is the secondary work that should have happened didn't because "lul adc 2018" and ADCs got sweeping buffs. First of all, this "secondary work" you refer to exists in your head and nowhere else. What was Riot planning to do to make ADCs viable mid? Cite the planned changes. Oh right, the changes were to allow other classes to go into BOT lane, not to move ADCs to MID. Second, ADCs got sweeping buffs because Riot realized that nerfing ADCs to the point where other classes were a better choice even in bot lane effectively gutted the entire class. Or maybe Riot stepped back and realized that the bot lane players play ADCs not because they are the most optimal in bot, but because they WANT to play those champions. And that the people complaining about bot lane "lacking diversity" don't actually play the role, and are just salty that bot lane players didn't need to learn multiple classes. >And I do call it special treatment because certain classes have been shut out of the meta for far longer. Again: "If ADCs wanting to be the optimal choice in bot lane is "special treatment" then so are bruisers and mages being viable in more than one lane, as that is not possible for most ADCs." Most of the times when other classes are bad in a certain role, those same champs could _go somewhere else_. Like if the mages in bot don't work out there, they can take their asses back to mid. And when classes aren't viable, this is not something to strive for. Most ADCs can be laned against just fine in solo lanes, and are kept that way. In fact, so much so that they aren't viable in those lanes. Your idea of "able to be laned against" means laned against where ADCs have the fundamental advantage, which naturally means the ADCs will get stomped in solo lanes too.
: Like? What, you want me to name them off? Do you keep a list of all the biased ADC haters? How do you even know that they are that? You really can't until they blatantly announce it. Just as you can call some people biased ADC haters for opposing ADC buffs I can call you a biased ADC supporter. But since that's probably far from the truth and you're a perfectly just person with just reasoning we can fairly assume that there are others like you out there and even some on the opposite side of the argument.
Like as in, what "much more reasonable reasons"? If there is a reasonable reason to detest what is the single most team dependent class in the game, I'd like to read it.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: >The fact that marksmen have little or no agency until the point where they can carry the game doesn't matter to them. they have low agency because most of them are no counterplay right click champs, thats basically what a Rioter said >They justify marksmen being weak by clinging to the fact that bot lane players still choose marksmen in most games. The fact that most of those marksmen can't viably be played in any other lane doesn't matter to them. Even in competitive play people rather pick marksmen than free win mages bot? >The facts that the build is not very strong UNTIL 3 items yeah because crit is supposed to be a late game stat
> [{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lOpt8s4,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-01-04T18:57:24.798+0000) > > they have low agency because most of them are no counterplay right click champs, thats basically what a Rioter said Which keeps them from being broken, and is true whether they are strong or not. That is the tradeoff. This is exactly why marksmen SHOULD be strong picks, because that low agency should give them something effective in return. > > Even in competitive play people rather pick marksmen than free win mages bot? Yeah, highly specialized players would rather pick what they specialize in in an environment where they have 4 other players that are dedicated to facilitating that. Mages may be objectively better, but that doesn't mean the ADC of the team is better ON THEM. > > yeah because crit is supposed to be a late game stat So there should be no problem when a crit carry reaches their late spikes and pumps out more damage than everyone else, right? No, people still complained.
Lhuhz (EUW)
: >my experience with ADCs have reinforced this idea that unless their class is played in this one specific role in this one specific way, Riot has fucked up and they need to fix it. You mean your experience with every player has reinforced the idea that adcs should only be played bot right? Because the ones complaining about Lucian Mid being meta on pro play for some patchs that ended with him being gutted for months were not adc mains, were Midlane mains. And the ones that complain everytime that Vayne Top is even near to be meta are Toplane mains, not adc mains. You keep pushing your false narrative of "only adc players dislike adcs being viable on other roles" when reallity is that when botlane adcs actually leave bot everyone cries until they get their knees broken back to botlane. >"No fuck you, your vision of the game is wrong and ADCs shoudl stay bot." With more gentle words I agree with what they said to you back then, your idea of wanting adcs outside of Botlane is something that is marginal on the Boards, and the Boards are already a marginal part of the western Lol community that is smaller than the east Lol community. Your vision of the game is wrong, adcs should stay bot.
And the reason this is, and what I told him back then, is because reasonable ADC mains only want one thing, just like any other player: for their champs to be viable and impactful. We don't want to push other roles out of solo lanes, we especially don't want the class changed into something else. Solo laners will tell you that marksmen as they are being meta in solo lanes pushes their champs out and leads to ADC being too powerful. It's true. And it's impossible for the class to be viable solo lane yet not optimal bot lane without drasticly reworking the entire class. Which is not something the players OF that class actually want at all.
: To do a slight counterpoint to this: ADC players also want special treatment. Look in any other role and you'd find that if your character/class isn't meta, you either have to learn a new role/class or complain until Riot changes it. This has been true for every role since the beginning of time. Junglers have to learn tanks, divers, mages and more. Supports have had to learn tanks, supports, mages, whatever. Mids have had almost every role in the game and top is a smorgus board of champs. Except for bot Bot lane players don't exist. ADC players do. This is also shown in how ADC mains react to their class being bad. When ADCs weren't great post 8.11, did ADCs learn? Nope. They benched themselves. Doublelift said "Oh well stop being a baby and adapt". Then a few weeks later he came out with a video about how playing a changing game sucks and how adcs being bad is a great example of it. Hell, I was saying before that ADCs should get radical changes so they can be open to being in other lanes and improve the game by not having adcs so tied to such a singular thing/ideal. I was told "No fuck you, your vision of the game is wrong and ADCs shoudl stay bot." So for all this post about people have biased hate towards ADCs, please be aware that (while anecdotal), my experience with ADCs have reinforced this idea that unless their class is played in this one specific role in this one specific way, Riot has fucked up and they need to fix it.
Your stance has already been covered: "They justify marksmen being weak by clinging to the fact that bot lane players still choose marksmen in most games. The fact that most of those marksmen can't viably be played in any other lane doesn't matter to them." If ADCs wanting to be the optimal choice in bot lane is "special treatment" then so are bruisers and mages being viable in more than one lane, as that is not possible for most ADCs. Yet, "diversity in bot lane". Full stop. And while you acknowledge that changes should LATER be made to make ADCs capable of surviving in a solo lane... somehow, not only did neither you nor Riot have any concrete idea on how or when that would be accomplished, and still don't, you were perfectly OK with bot lane players having their entire champion pools and playstyles being gutted and made ineffectual in the meantime. You call it special treatment, but I don't see anyone that actually wants to play the game being happy about their entire wheelhouse being shut out of the meta entirely in the span of one patch.
: 1. Stormrazor is too good of an early spike. Trying to go BF -> zeal -> complete zeal -> into IE means you already lost lane. Not to mention, at the time IE's cost was 3700 and build path was double BF which is fucking brutal for any poor laning ADC (getting 1300 gold backs...). Even now, stormrazor is the best 1-item spike you can hope for which is much more important than your 3 item spike 2. RFC + shiv interaction has been nerfed, and it no longer provides the burst it once did - no longer making it super useful. Once again you're sacrificing the instant umph of AD and burst from stormrazor for potentially more DPS which does not matter in this meta. 3. No, I remember you specifically saying shit like "2800 gold is too cheap for zeal items" after Riot made the first PBE change making zeal items 2800 gold. You wanted them to be 2900 gold. 4. I'm done "arguing" with you (can't really call it that, you have literally never in your post history made a decent point). Don't bother replying to my comments ever again it's pathetic. Go play on your main account and complain in all chat about how Garen trash tier (so you can get laughed at). Pce.
You aren't misremembering. He initially thought the 8.11 changes were a buff, and that Zeal items were still too cheap. And then tried to say that ADCs were fine. Critmaster Garen has been one of the most consistent (and consistently wrong) ADC haters on the boards.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: Because Jax and crit ADCs are the same. When strong, they statcheck you to death by rightclicking. When weak, they die. Jax is strong now, but season ago he was pretty shit. Vice versa with ADCs.
Nevermind the fact that ADCs don't have enough self peel or built in survivability to actually stat-check any other type of carry, and were difficult to kill in Ardent Meta because of the champions using the item the meta was named for... (Hint: none of those champs were the ADC)
: > [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lOpt8s4,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2019-01-04T14:45:25.405+0000) > > It’s because adcs are stat check champs. You either have better stats or you die getting to them. Yes mobility is a stat. > > Adcs shouldn’t be buffed because they are meant to be a team class. They aren’t meant to be solo carries. > > Bring back supports (not this damage botlaner) and frontliners and they once again become gods. > > Buff them now and it’s good luck touching them and killing them. Adcs typically only had the weakness of if you get to them. If we buff them further they need a new weakness. Don't know why people are downvoting you, this is correct. ADCs can either kill people by right clicking, or not. That is the definition of stat-checky.
By this definition every champion with a non skillshot damage ability is stat-checky. I guess positioning, kite and peel do not factor in your mind? Out of all the so-called "stat-check" champions, none of them can be jumped on and neutralized as easily as ADCs. It takes a lot more to properly play the role than just right clicking, but your reasoning stops at "ranged Autoattack"
: And then there's the other people who aren't just biased that detest current and past iterations of Marksmen for much more reasonable reasons.
: Can We Go Back To The Days When
That would require the meta to be more focused on team play than individual outplays. I think that would be nice, but not the direction Riot seems to want to take.
nonstart (NA)
: Why does everyone hate adc on these boards
A number of reasons. Most of those are a result of not playing the role or having a great understanding of how it works. - They're solely focused on the idea that their roles will LOSE some impact in the meta if marksmen are strong. The fact that marksmen have little or no agency until the point where they can carry the game doesn't matter to them. - They justify marksmen being weak by clinging to the fact that bot lane players still choose marksmen in most games. The fact that most of those marksmen can't viably be played in any other lane doesn't matter to them. - They think marksmen do too much damage too easily and quickly when crit is good and marksmen hit 3 crit items. The facts that the build is not very strong UNTIL 3 items, and that consistent damage is really all the marksmen class provides is not their concern. - They don't want to be forced to depend on their marksmen to win fights or games at any point. Marksmen being dependent on the team for the entire game to be able to do anything isn't their problem. When late game marksmen are strong they still are reliant on the entire team at all points of the game to help them build to the point where they can carry. They become the most reliable win condition on a team, but the tradeoff is how they mostly can't do much of anything on their own. A lot of people on these boards can't see that tradeoff or don't care, and just don't like the idea of the ADC win condition "overshadowing" their individual play.
Tegash (NA)
: Boards: I hate that only 2 ADCs are relevant in the meta! Also Boards: STOP BUFFING OTHER ADCS, THERE'S TOO MUCH DAMAGE IN THE GAME! Also Also Boards: ADCs are too weak, they need buffs. :/ Make up your mind, people.
Almost like those are separate groups of people, LOL
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OmegaNITRO

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