: >Or, alternatively, you could try giving a singular fuck about the 99.99% of the playerbase https://u.gg/lol/champions/yuumi/build?rank=platinum Do me a favor and check her ban rate in iron-gold elos.
Across all rank, 7% pick, 16% ban. By that logic, Yasuo, Pyke, Riven, Lee, Kai'sa, Ez, and Jinx all need to be fucking dumpstered. She's also below a 45% winrate, unlike every other champion I just mentioned with both higher pick rates, banrates, ***AND*** winrates. In Iron she has an 8.4% banrate. In Bronze its 6.3%. Silver is the first Elo to see it get to 10% banrate, barely, with the second lowest winrate of any champion, and barely a 6% pickrate. She maintains the abysmal winrate in gold, but the bans increase to 18.3%. What were you trying to prove or insinuate with these numbers? Yasuo, for example, has a 45% motherfucking banrate in Plat+. totally not a problem, while also maintaining positive winrate in some roles, and nearly a 50% in 2 others. He also sees almost double Yummi's pick rate as well as substantially higher winrate and massively higher banrate-- we're talking basically 3 times higher banrate, and 3-7.5 percentille higher winrate. In gold, he actually has an above 50% win and ban rate, while boasting an even higher pickrate than in higher Elos. Go to silver, and his ban and pickrate increase yet again, and he sports a massive 54% winrate in ADC, 50.7% in top, and nearly 52% in mid. Not only do half of all fucking players NOT want him in the game on either team, but he's picked up in over a third of all games he's not banned in, just as a mid lane pick alone (36.57% of the time he's not banned in silver he's picked as a midlaner, as compared to Yummi's 8.33% overall pickrate when not banned in her highest ban+pickrate Elos) and ***Yasuo is picked across all positions in 47.52% of all games in which he is not banned, or just shy of HALF OF ALL FUCKING GAMES HE'S NOT BANNED IN, WITH A POSITIVE WINRATE, IN LOW SKILL ELOS AS A SUPPOSEDLY HIGH SKILL FLOOR CHAMPION*** He's got over a 75% pick+banrate, compared to Yummi's 23%, with the second lowest winrate at under 45% to go with it-- whereas he's got a ~52% winrate on average. If Yummi is a problem, Yasuo is a disgusting, overloaded, overpowered abomination that absolute necessitates massive changes, or outright deletion. So again, what were you trying to prove with those stats again, and why on earth do you think they apply to Yummi over about a dozen or more ***VASTLY*** more picked and banned champions, who also maintain positive winrates despite being played primarily by non-mains in low skill environments as supposed "high" skill champions-- who by RIOTs own admissions are ***ONLY*** balanced if they have a ***LOW*** winrate when played by unskilled players and non-mains.
: Ngl, I appreciate the Blitzcrank and Veigar buffs but the others do look very questionable. Especially Tahm Kench getting 100% Gray Health regen at level 18.
Its a nerf 'till level 12, by which point most games are already decided. He'll win more if his ADC and him snowball, and lose harder if they do not. Feast or famine changes are terrible, imho-- especially for defensive, peel-oriented tanks who should instead provide consistency and a slower game/fight pace.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XHgYJxfE,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-11T14:32:16.985+0000) > > ik about E>WQ, but I thought you could work an R into that as well. You can. You can also work an auto attack and tiamat into it. Q, auto, E, R+Tiamat, Auto, WQ doublecast, Auto, RQ is probably the most damage in the lead time. Should take about 1.5 seconds?
And through that she can 100-0 most fighters and even juggernauts, under tower, while CCing her targets, dashing all around, and unless the Riven player is absolute trash, won't miss anything unless their opponent burns flash. Meanwhile, Illaoi takes an entire second of being locked into her Q animation before it even does damage, on top of having un-cancel-able or buffer-able animations of at least .5 seconds on every ability, while also scaling worse off AD, having no on demand defense of any sort, and having one short range, slow travel time and conditional dash compared to 4 on demand forms of mobility. Oh, and Riven is entirely resourceless and Illaoi struggles with mana in lane. Don't you just love RIOT favoritism? The high AoE hard CC champion with hyper mobility should totally do more damage AND deal it faster than the class that trades range, mobility, and target access for extra damage and durability. "Seems perfectly fine, in fact. . . Let's give Riven two more massive buffs to her W and R" -rItO GaMe
Zed genius (EUNE)
: > Where was that talk when Riven was the Omega of Toplane? There were at least 4 daily posts about riven being broken
And she's still the queen of top lane, and about to get two utterly massive and entirely un-need buffs. So um, what even are you trying to say? She's still an utter abomination ruining top lane from Iron to Challenger (a """"""""""""high"""""""""""" [read:low as dirt] skill-floor champion with well above 50% winrate, like the almost 53% winrate she sports in Masters) and is getting extremely large buffs. Not at all broken or problematic, right?
: > [{quoted}](name=MaskedMadness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRy4EbIN,comment-id=0003000100000000000000030001,timestamp=2019-09-12T18:30:23.312+0000) > > i just want to mention its not hard to dodge aatroxs Q's 0_0. > > most people just dont make the effort It's frustrating playing against anyone with a dash or move speed steroids as Aatrox. Most people cheese the first two Q's by standing in melee range, and then the last one they walk beneath you to cheese it or outright dodge it. Fucking Illaoi, the bitch that everyone says "don't stand still! hur dur!" has faster animations than Aatrox does.
Illaoi has literally an entire second long animation on every damaging ability except for her W. . . which is the slowest travel speed dash in the game. Even her E triggered passive slams are delayed by an entire second. Aatrox has faster animations on every single skill than Illaoi, unless you compare a point blank Illaoi W to Aatrox's first Q. A full ranged W is slower though.
: Idk what kind of universe you live in but Vayne compared to any other adc early will be bad not including supports in the equation. Vayne has zero attack speed steroid, is short ranged, and her e is super situational.
Maybe compare her to more than just RIOT's favorite class, and the other 10 overloaded, over stated monstrosities, and look at the other 135 champions in the game?
: defensive playstyle or defensive stats? We didn't ever lose defensive stats, damage just went up along with runes.
Buddy, tanks at a four item build have lost: 1,500HP 80 Armor 60 MR Untold health regen as what was once a core tank stat to rival lifesteal has now been all but gutted except in the singular case of a Warmogs with 2-3 other HP items. But guess what? None of that is *IN COMBAT* so it doesn't make you last longer in a fight at all. 7% MS Give all that shit back, and suddenly you'd see people actually playing tanks again.
: The reward and pay off are a lot higher with damage, that is why it should start weaker and end stronger.
Amen, too bad assassin and ADC players have never even realized this for a second, and RIOT forgot this five years ago.
: but dps classes are the best at popping tanks? another comment mentions lux and she only manages to do 56 to a tank by executing her entire kit and being within auto attack range for multiple auto procs
> she only manages to do 56[% of his max HP solo as a support artillery mage against a class that absolutely hard counters hers, Vanguard] The word "only" has no fucking place in that sentence. Her doing that much damage to a class that should hard counter her, while she's also on a *MUCH* lower budget should show you just how shit tanks are atm. It used to be that artillery mages simply wouldn't waste their mana on tanks as they would never get anywhere and have their damage out regened. Artillery mages are supposed to kite and use their superior range to poke out squishy targets and essentially NEVER 100-0 ANYONE, even the squishiest of ADCs with a full damage build. Instead, we see them easily and quickly obliterating over half the health of their hardest counters-- tanks who, again, aren't worth shit atm.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZn9Xq9e,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T10:39:33.795+0000) > > You don't understand that that tank items cost gold too. > > If one and half MR item + investing runes in AP is not enough to soak a rotation of a mage (which Tanks should counter) on a similar gold budget, then we go back to OP point: damage scales faster AND harder than defense. > > If we want to be specific, Nunu build couldn't be different. Cinderhulk is a must, and if the enemy is not full AP, dead man's plate is necessary too. The rest is rightful gold investment in MR, which is proven completely useless because again, damage > defense. > > To you that argue that an artillery mage rotation should remove 60% of hp of a tank, remember that that tank must also soak damage from DPS sources (which should counter tanks), from the frontline and maybe from the jungle. I.e. a tank must survive from multiple damage sources of both types. Arguing that a single source (that I add, should be sub-optimal on tanks) should almost do the job by itself, instantly on a burst, seems almost madness. > > PS: Maokai and Ornn are laughable, if you have doubts play them top against riven/Darius/Renekton etc. The others range from mediocre to good, but they're played for their damage, and not their tankiness. Check out the damage Shen/Malph does actually do after the buffs, it's quite crazy. Where did you get this silly idea that tanks are supposed to counter mages ? Apc as Adc are supposed to melt tanks while bruisers, divers and assassins kills the Apc/Adcs. Dealing 55% of nunu's HP is okay.
Tanks are THE counter to burst mages, artillery mages, and assassins. Full stop. Those classes are supposed to suck absolute ASS at dealing with tanks, and should ***NEVER*** be able to fight them on equal footing. Its literally tanks' job to not get blown up by classes who are supposed to specialize in killing squishies, already low AND out of position champions, or poke (not burst, not outright 100-0, but poke) away squishier champions. Literally none of those classes have any business 1 vs 1ing a tank, and ***should lose such a confrontation heavily if the tank is close or equal on gold, let alone a-fucking-head of them.*** Doing more than 20% of Nunu's HP when behind him on any of those classes ***IS NOT OKAY!*** THIS is why no one fucking plays tanks.
: Considered broken assassin item Considered broken mage item It has nothing to do with the warding concept it has everything to do with the power of the 2 items.
How, when, and why is Hourglass even being mentioned and why is it at all relevant to the discussion at hand, if as you said it has nothing at all to do with the warding concept which is the actual subject of the post? This is whataboutism or a false (and not even tangentially related) equivalence at best.
Ackelope (NA)
: Not true, most Kai'sa players max E second, not W, meaning the full -20% will come into play at level 13, not 18. Personally, I still don't think it'll be an especially hard-hitting nerf, but I'd rather wait and see how it pans out than immediately trying to hit something harder.
According to every aggregate stat site she has a vastly higher winrate with Q, W, E max than any other order. And it only gets more popular the higher Elo you look. That said, you are correct that many players choose inferior skill orders and suffer as a result. They aren't the people RIOT is trying to balance around though, as this is a World's patch aimed at pro play and the higher Elo players.
iiGazeii (NA)
: I think it's very possible for low-mobility champions to be fun. The new Morde is fun. Illaoi is fun. Brand, Kayle, Tahm Kench, Xayah, Ivern. We have a ton of "fun" immobile champions. The problem is that mobile champions don't really trade anything for that mobility. They deal comparable damage and have comparable utility to immobile champions, yet they have mobility on top of that enables them to be more aggressive and engage on their enemy, or get out of danger when they overstep. Mobility is incredibly powerful in a game like League that heavily depends on ranges, spacing, and positioning. It should come at a steep cost. Mobile champions should do less damage, be less tanky, offer less utility, and/or have shorter range than their immobile counterparts to offset the dynamic flexibility their kits have to offer. In terms of game design, the devs need to reevaluate how much mobility actually costs out of a champion's power budget. Right now, it's not enough.
> The problem is that mobile champions don't really trade anything for that mobility. They deal comparable damage and have comparable utility to immobile champions, yet they have mobility on top of that enables them to be more aggressive and engage on their enemy, or get out of danger when they overstep. Been saying this shit since literally S2, but its only become more and more true over time. > In terms of game design, the devs need to reevaluate how much mobility actually costs out of a champion's power budget. Right now, it's not enough. A-fucking-men. They need to increase the power budget cost of mobility, I'd honestly suggest tripling or quadrupling how much they budget for it, and re-balancing from there.
Pika Fox (NA)
: -20% AS is a MASSIVE nerf to someone who relies on auto attacks for dps, the hell are you on about?
That literally, and I mean *literally* only comes into play at level 18 when she's actually got a rank 5 E and the game ended 15 minutes ago? Wow such massive. Much nerf.
: When they nerf hourglass they can do something about this.
Wtaf does hourglass, a midlane mage item have to do with assassins countering support's vision when roaming??? Especially when the topic mentions Pyke, a support assasin in particular. {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} Its not at all like any champions in the bot lane are purchasing an hourglass, nor does it help, counter, or interact with vision in any way whatsoever.
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: It's useful for me when I built it on {{champion:82}} when 1v1ing Adc's and Auto Attackers inside Death Realm. It helps me out because I can invest in {{item:3111}} cause I am most likely going to get CC chained the moment I murder enemy's adc(tearing them limb from limb). Because buying {{item:3047}} would just...reduce {{item:3075}} damage because the more damage ninja tabi blocks the less dmg {{item:3075}} will reflect...and buying {{item:3165}} isn't going to help me with enemy adc built 75% crit at all, I'd just get clapped before my Q animation would finish inside my ulti(aka get the Aatrox Q treatment). Doesn't seem effective on champions like {{champion:164}}, I wouldn't buy {{item:3075}}, you can say she's the only melee exception.
Thornmail does not "reflect" any damage at all and hasn't for literally 4-5 years. It does flat damage with a scaling portion based off 10% of your bonus armor. e.g. getting a Ninja Tabi would actually increase damage dealt by. . . a whole 2.5 damage.
: It is hard to make thornmail stronger as long as it has armor scaling damage + Rammus and Malphite
Are you kidding me? Its scaling is 1 damage for every 10 bonus armor. 1,000 fucking bonus armor = 100 extra damage BEFORE magic resist, so even the squishiest of base MRs take that down to less than 70 damage. Also, even for those champions its literally impossible to even come close to 1k bonus armor. You buy a Deadman's Plate? congrats, you return ***6*** whole additional damage. Get a Sunfire? whoopie, 6 damage. Get a Gargoyle's Stone Plate with Metalicized active for the most armor on any item in the entire game? Guess what, you get a whole ***10 fucking damage***.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: It's not a waste of gold, it's situational. Like vs Aatrox, it helps you a lot. The problem is the champions that I should counter are either bypassing armor or death to be viable, like YI, Yasuo or Trynda and it also shares a passive for some reason with Randuin, far superior item imho
Read what I actually typed, "its literally a waste of gold to go beyond a bramble in all but the latest of game conditions." If you want Cold Steel, you're infinitely better off going Randuin's or Frozen Heart. The upgrade gives you 70hp, and 5 armor for 900g, and increase your return damage by like 15 damage before MR. Armor is worth 20g a point, so its 100g of armor. Hp is worth 2.666g per point, so its 187g worth of health. You're spending 613g for ~15 extra return damage before MR. It is, quite literally, a waste of gold to complete thornmail in every single situation. The ONLY time you should even CONSIDER finishing thornmail from bramble is as a sixth item with nothing else to upgrade.
Tailypo (NA)
: I cant believe the downvotes I got on my response. You guys honestly dont know shit if you think bork counters thornmail. Hillarious.
Want some maths? Let's take a level 11 Jinx (highest winrate and second highest pickrate ADC, also has one of, if not the highest ratio of attack speed to attack damage, so thornmail will "counter" her harder than any other ADC) and give her just a BotRK, and ignore all of her runes, other items, etc. She'll have 86.8 base AD + 40 = 126.8, she'll also be almost exactly to 1.0 AS before factoring in her Q or her passive. With her Q passive up, she reaches 1.7425 attacks per second which I will round to 1.75/s just for ease of math. BotRK gives her 12% increased lifesteal. She will be targeting a level 11 Nautilus (highest winrate and highest pickrate tank atm, primarily played support, so no level advantage given to either champs) who has simple a thronmail, neglecting all runes and other items once again. Nautilus has 72 armor (71.9) at level 11, and Thornmail provides an additional 80 armor, bringing him to 152 armor, which I will slightly truncate to 150 for ease of math. Naut has 1331 base hp at 11, and gets 250 from TM bringing him to 1581 HP since I truncated armor, I will round this to 1600 HP for ease of math and to make up for the lost pEHP. A champion with 1600 hp with 150 armor takes (1+150/100)x1600 physical damage to kill, or 4,000 points of physical damage. Jinx deals 222 points of damage per second (so would kill in 18 seconds before BotRK's passive) plus she gets an additional 8% current HP per hit, or 1.75 times a second. She will also heal for 12% of this damage but since TM has GW, this is reduced to 7.2%. Thornmail will return 25 + 80(.1) damage a hit, or a measly 33 damage, or 57 damage a second. Jinx will heal 16 health per attack + 7.2% (8%)Nautiluss' current HP. For the first hit, she will deal an additional 128 damage, and she will heal an additional 9 health from this damage. After the first auto, Naut has taken 350 points of physical damage, leaving him with 3650 pEHP remaining, and Jinx has taken a whole 8 damage, even through the GW and with the full return damage, omitting any extra healing she would certainly have from runes, Doran's blade, or other items. In fact, the inclusion of a Doran's Blade lowers the damage she's taken to a single point of damage. She will also 100-0 the Nautilus in less than a dozen seconds without any other source of damage. In essence, what has happened is that the BotRK deletes a third of Naut + TM's pEHP taking his surviability from a little over 18 seconds to less than 12. ~~In exchange it deals about 14 damage a second (if we omit runes and other sources of healing for Jinx, if she's got runes and a Doran's Blade, she actually heals beyond all the damage and gets sustain off of hitting him even with the GW applied) or a total of 168 entire damage over the 12 seconds it takes for Jinx to kill him. Factoring in her regen over that time, and she'll barely take 10% of her base HP over 12 seconds while killing a thornmail tank 100-0 with just auto attacks.~~ EDIT: I totally forgot to factor in Jinx's base MR. She would actually only take a fraction of that damage, about 70% of it, and so she takes 23.1 damage per hit instead of 33, meaning that even with just the BotRK alone, she actually takes -2 damage a hit, or heals for 2 health through the GW and the thorns with literally no other sustain or life steal. She will 100-0 him in 12 seconds, and heal for 42 health (over the 21 attacks made in 12 seconds) for doing so with just the BotRK. So yeah, BotRK completely invalidates Thornmail even in the best case scenarios for thorns vs physical attacks.
T2K Baka (NA)
: i mean when i build it on rammus, i saw an adc kill themself my autoing me
Ralanr (NA)
: Thornmail is meant to apply GW more than hurt ADCs.
Sadly, this is why its literally a waste of gold to go beyond a bramble in all but the latest of game conditions.
: >spammable flash it has 25 second cooldown at rank 1
Which is 1/12 the cooldown of flash. before rank ups and CDR take it down to a 7 second cooldown, at which point it can be used 42.85 times before Flash comes off cooldown a single time. I would say it being up 12 - 42.85 times as often as flash make it A, pretty fucking spamable and B, since it has longer range, does damage, and provides immunity to displacements and CC effects, simply a ***better*** flash. As a result, it is both quite accurate and rather succinct to refer to it merely as "a spammable flash"
Eedat (NA)
: Meta is not what's good at the time. As a matter of fact, you can have extremely off meta strategies. Just because they're good doesn't make them meta lol
META literally stands for Most Effective Tactic Available. It's exactly, and only what has the highest chance of winning, e.g. whatever is literally the best at any given gamestate.
: There are two types of pro-play dominating champions: * Those who, because of their high skill cap, benefit the best players more than normal players regardless of how they're performing for the masses. Zed, Katarina, and Lee Sin fall into this category. * Then there are those who win in stats, but are flat out not fun to play to most people. Aurelion Sol, Azir (apart from his single mechanical interaction), and Vladimir fall into this category. Corki is one of the latter. He's got an odd style, but not in a good way, and so his strengths are really only used by people who are willing to sacrifice fun for performance... Basically the entirety of Professional video game players.
TFW Asol is one of the most mechanically intensive champions with one of the highest winrate deltas based on games played/overall rank of any champion in the game, just behind Singed, and ahead of Katarina and Riven. Totally just "win[s] in stats" and not positioning and mechanical proficiency.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-08-12T00:01:41.517+0000) > > I think assassin should actually have their reward per assassination attempt lowered, eliminating low counterplay 100-0 burst, so that they cannot reliably assassinate a full health target in one attempt but instead must make multiple attempts or wait for their target to have their health lowered below some threshold by other threats. I think each individual assassination attempt should be even safer for the assassin, but requiring multiple attempts would result in a cumulative risk about the same as current for the assassin overall. > > The issue with this is that backline carries need to be balanced first so that they won't quickly annihilate an entire team while being impossible to kill due to lifesteal and enchanters if they aren't 100-0'ed in <1 second by even lower counterplay mechanics... So assassins (and burst mages) should ideally have more counterplay, but that can only happen if backline carries have their power reduced equally. These changes would cascade into other balance issues, but solving those would cause the real desired solution, reducing both damage and sustain across the board, to coalesce. What you're really asking for by saying assassins should have to take multiple attempts is eliminating the assassin class.
No, actually, returning them to the balance paradigm of the first 6 years of LoL. Until season 6/7, it was all but unheard of for any champion to legitimately 100-0 anyone else. Even in laning, you'd trade, and trade, and when they got to around 50-60%, you'd fake a trade, to force an all in + ignite to try to secure the kill. Now, its miss half your skills, r + ignite and 100-0 the target anyway, because "LOL assassins need to 1000-0 everyone and anyone or they ArEN't AsSaSsInS" then instantly blink away to safety, laughing all the way to the bank with your essentially free, counterplay-less 300g.
Proxy345 (NA)
: ADCs are strong,but they just aren't needed anymore because they're gonna get jumped on and oneshotted before even landing a few AAs. Theres a good powerspike for the ADC at first BUT once the assassins get {{item:3147}} then its time to surrender because everyone will get oneshotted literally. When you see your so-called "frontline" getting killed in less than a second most of the time then you really gotta start wondering wtf is the point of playing ADC when theres no frontline left?
> [{quoted}](name=Proxy345,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bB5EBMvn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-12T18:04:14.058+0000) > > ADCs are strong,but they just aren't needed anymore because they're gonna get jumped on and oneshotted before even landing a few AAs. Theres a good powerspike for the ADC at first BUT once the assassins get {{item:3147}} then its time to surrender because everyone will get oneshotted literally. > > ***When you see your so-called "frontline" getting killed in less than a second most of the time then you really gotta start wondering wtf is the point of playing ADC when theres no frontline left?*** [emphasis mine] Its almost like this is the actual problem, that even tanks die in a second or two, and because of the unhealthy amounts of unmitigated burst damage, everyone who's not a tank will die likewise, even faster. The solution isn't to buff ADCs, one of the classes dealing utterly unhealthy levels of damage to everyone until they get 100-0 instagibbed. The solution is to finally do what they've been promising for the last three years of damage and power creep, actually fucking nerfing damage for fucking once, and allowing defense and resistances to once again actually mean something and be worthwhile instead of all damage all the time or you're fucking trolling.
: Yeah. Exactly what I'm feeling... Hecarim gets the Duskblade Youmuu's, he literally comes in like a train, can't be CC'd, and kills the ADC in one touch. So, what, ADC's gotta waste their time and gold buying something like a GA every game? They'll be even FURTHER behind in damage. And GA has a huge cooldown anyway. So... what, exactly? It just... doesn't make any sense. And I shudder to think about how long the gamestate's been like this. I've heard some crazy things, too. I heard... AP Shyvana used to be BETTER and was DRASTICALLY nerfed. And I heard the same thing about Pyke. How does this happen??? Does Riot *literally* not test their game, nor watch any matches, listen to feedback, or anything at all whatsoever??? Because I couldn't imagine Shyvana even doing 5 more damage than she already does. And I can't imagine that someone manually programmed the things in this game, and would sooner believe they have everything on a randomizer.
> [{quoted}](name=IHeartDoot,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bB5EBMvn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-12T18:10:42.020+0000) > > Yeah. Exactly what I'm feeling... > > Hecarim gets the Duskblade Youmuu's, he literally comes in like a train, can't be CC'd, and kills the ADC in one touch. So, what, ADC's gotta waste their time and gold buying something like a GA every game? They'll be even FURTHER behind in damage. And GA has a huge cooldown anyway. So... what, exactly? > > It just... doesn't make any sense. And I shudder to think about how long the gamestate's been like this. > > I've heard some crazy things, too. I heard... AP Shyvana used to be BETTER and was DRASTICALLY nerfed. And I heard the same thing about Pyke. How does this happen??? Does Riot *literally* not test their game, nor watch any matches, listen to feedback, or anything at all whatsoever??? Because I couldn't imagine Shyvana even doing 5 more damage than she already does. And I can't imagine that someone manually programmed the things in this game, and would sooner believe they have everything on a randomizer. TFW ADCs used to be balanced around getting both a GA, and a Banshee's Veil (when both were purely defensive items with no CDR, let alone AD, and contributed exactly nothing to anyone's damage) plus also spending an item slot on Merc Treads (zerkers were considered trolling, btw) and an item slot for Last Whisper, leaving them only two item slots for pure damage (IE + PD at the time). This was essentially seasons 1-5, and considered by just about every single person who played back then the most balanced and most fun period LoL has ever seen. Its almost like this toxic mentality of "fuck everything even remotely defensive, give me all the damage possible, I need ranged, targeted, unmissable damage, and for it to 3-5 shot anyone regardless of role, level or build" is just . . . well, not at all a healthy way to balance what should be constant, consistent ranged damage dealers, who should be able to slowly burn down targets instead of dealing assassin level burst damage at range 2-3+ times a second, necessitating that they be blown up in a second or less, or else they will simply kill every single other person while being untouchable due to their inherent range.
: Yea that's exactly what hes saying. Idk why you think that's unfair. If a non-fed Rengar is in range of a target squishy enough for him to one-shot then he likely used his ulti to do so, therefore it's not unreasonable for Lulu to use hers. In the event that he didn't use his ulti and just jumped from a bush, why was a squishy target walking next to a bush with rengar in it in the first place??
Not even going to go into a discussion of power levels, and risk vs reward (why are assassins such minimal risk, massive reward unless their opponents play perfectly, ***AND*** use more resources to do so as well, while the initiative is still firmly in the assassin's place?) but doesn't that extremely binary interaction scream horrendous game design from a few miles away? Either your teammate, not you, as you have exactly 0 agency at this point, but either your teammate is watching you, and reacts within 0.13 seconds, or about half of the average human's reaction time of 0.25 seconds, and you live and kill Rengar, or you're dead with nothing you could have done. Also, if your team simply doesn't have a Lulu, guess you just die. Totally fair, balanced, and clearly good, healthy game-play, right? Except, of course fucking not, its a clusterfuck of absolutely terribly designed interactions all around.
Theorex (NA)
: On that same note, Ryze can't one shot either. RyZe HaS tO lAnD tHrEe AbIlItIeS. W E Q. Oh wait, that is a one shot??? Aatrox has to land three abilities. Oh wait that is not a one shot??? Alright. Cool.
3 =/= 1, so no, neither is a one shot., thank you very much. A combo =/= one shot. A full combo (aatrox's case) even less so, as unless he uses E and W, or his target is afk, there is no way he's landing all his Qs.
: No it's not. If you find it difficult to do so, then the likely cause is that you're not all that good at them. And now you're trying to argue something about semantics that isn't relevant. The thing we're talking about is ranged vs. melee. Trying to say that we're talking about their range as a stat when it's the defining difference means you don't understand the conversation we're having.
Range is a fucking stat. Even melee ranged ranged champions have different ranges. Non juggernauts have 125. Juggernauts, Fizz, J4 and a few other have 175. Irelia has 200 because she's a monstrosity of shitty design. Even ranged champions have totally different range. Standard ADC range is 550. Cait has 650, Ashe has 600, Varus has over 600. Kog has 550, but gets over 700 when he presses W. Trist gets over 700 by leveling up. Sivir is ranged with 450 range. See, all of these different range values make utterly mosntrous differences in their threat range. target access, lanining/trading patterns, etc. It used to be pretty common knowledge, and an often quoted line that the two most important stats in League of Legends are range and movement speed. Talking about range as a stat is not a matter of semantics. Its hugely and entirely relevant. Also, I don't even see how you can possible argue that there is no skill in gap closing when, as Yets above notes, its the defining skill check of immobile melees, to be able to actually gap close despite not having any tools to do so, and lacking the range to not be required to do so.
: watch?v=6CuUdhp_x0I I think a video provides better proof, than any fanmade webpage. 650 range was enough to outrange basic attacks for anyone except Caitlyn, and lategame Tristana. Taric became practically useless against like 99% of the botlane possibilities with his skillshot delayed stun.
You don't even know how spell range is different from auto attack range, wow.
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=92L2jOzQ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T23:01:35.483+0000) > > Hmm, as far as I recall, the AD+Crit+crit damage+AS formula has not changed, and you can still absolutely shred any armor purchased with a simple LDR. A non ADC cannot ever hope to out damage {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3036}} , let alone a full build ADC. As long as that remains the case, why should they be allowed to be gods in the midgame as well? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} Because everything else scales better into late game?
I mean, no actually, literally nothing in the game scales as well, let alone harder than ADCs. The problem is more that games never get to late game anyway. But seriously, try to name one single example of even one champion that scales harder than {{champion:67}}, {{champion:145}} or {{champion:222}}
: ***
I don't play ranked, and haven't in two plus years. You can check my season 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and season 1 rank stats by looking me up if you'd like. You'll notice that I don't actually play her in ranked much at all, in fact I have less than 10 ranked games on her in total across 7 years of ranked play (albeit she was only out for three of those years), and the last season I played rank, S7, I played 48.2% of my games as tanks, with no Illaoi games. If you're bothering to look at my match history, maybe pay attention to the fact that I all but exclusively have been playing ARAM and Twisted Treeline for the past two years. Then consider that Illaoi was recently changed, and I have played her a few times on TT testing out those changes. I'm a juggernaut main, I have most of my ranked games as Garen. My most played champion for the last two years is Urgot, to the point where I have played more games lately as Urgot than as every single other champion in all of LoL (55% of all my games in S8 were Urgot alone). The only other juggernaut with a psuedo ranged playstyle other than Urgot is Illaoi. Also, her E is not sleeper OP. META builds for her literally play around her E, hence why she can go klepto and get stacks off it, hence why they max it first. It's literally her bread and butter, make or break skill. You literally should not ever ult as her unless you've first landed an E. I'm really not sure you understand even the basics of the champion by what you have posted so far. She has the most counterplay available to her of any champion. Every single skill she has is either laughably small range (W/R) and so easily avoided, or else it has an entire second long delay before it hits you while also rooting her in place and being extremely telegraphed (Q, any tentacle slam, E). She's good against people she's already ahead of, people who suck at dodging telegraphed, delayed abilities, and when there are only a few people, and not enough burst damage to kill her before she can get multiple slams in after landing an E->R combo (which, by the way, takes almost 4 seconds of her CCing herself and preping before the first tentacles slam, albeit she can slam again two more times in the next second). There is a reason people both play her much more often, and see much greater success with her on TT than on SR, but even then, no one ever is popping off as an 0/6 Illaoi unless people literally walk into her abilities and stand there in her ult, intentionally feeding her out of pity.
: What is less skilled, than hitting enemy with skillshots? Hitting enemy with targeting skills. Such as Annie Q, or old Zilean's Q, or most of current Pantheon's skills. The most skilled style would be skillshots with big mana cost or/and CD, and damage. But most poker champion's mana cost allows them to miss a lot. Even with just 20% hit rate Lux, Xerath, Brand, and Morgana can poke the shit out of any non-tank enemy.
You have this pretty baseless notion that because the word skill is in 'skillshot' that they inherently are more skillful. This is a very binary, and frankly poor analysis of the situation. Conditions, utility, ease of use, oppertunity cost, resource cost, damage, range, etc are all being entirely omitted here. A global range skillshot ala Ez, Ashe, Jinx, etc ults can be vastly easier to hit, and more rewarding than melee range, or lower ranged targeted skills, because one can be fired from base any time its up, and the other further requires the champion in question is able to get within range, an action that takes its own skill, and heavily limits the target access and effective up time of the ability. Additionally targeted skills cannot be used if someone blinks/dashes away, is out of range, is hiding in a bush, if they use stealth-- like try landing a targetted skill on an ulting Vayne, you all but literally cannot if the Vayne isn't dumb or already hard CCed. There are also mechanics like Ez's W which turn skillshots into essentially longer range, higher damage point and clicks. Another example of this are things like Viegar's stun, which allows for his skillshot Q and W to be landed 100% of the time without issue, or Velkoz's E, or Syndra's slow + stun, or Brand's Q. . . In fact, if you analyze supposedly skillshot reliant champions, other than a few exceptions like Illaoi who utterly lack hard CC, they often have skills designed to make landing their skillshots much easier, so as to mostly or entirely overcome any extra difficulty in landing their skillshots.
: Skillfull compared to the old style when you did the same, but without the chance of missing. You just headbutt the keyboard with mouse on enemy, and win. Do you remember when Blitz's pull was NOT a skillshot? Oh boy... Or when Zilean just put you those bomb outside any basic attack range non-stop. Or when Taric could stun you no matter what. Man Taric+Sion was a killer combo with 2 targeting stun. Few champ still having this style. Panth+Xin botlane is an I WIN button against any ADC who dares to leave turret range. Fiddle instantly wins the poke fight with spamming the neverending crows. Lulu can still stop your basic attack, and abilities no matter how good you are at dodging.
Blitz pull has never not been a skillshot, do you even know what you're talking about? https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Blitzcrank#1st Zilean's bomb's also hardly changed from his release version. In fact, his first version had 600 range, almost two years later it was increased to 650 range, and current he has 900 range on the bombs . . . yes they are now ground targeted, as of 5.4 but you are rather misrepresenting the champions, the changes and the reasons for the changes here. They also stun when you land two, and this alteration was made to make Zilean (and particularly AP Zilean) *more powerful* and to give him longer ranges, so as to not have to get within auto attack range for his harass.
: This one can lose lane 0/6 and still be relevant... {{champion:420}}
Illaoi can be strong, but she's *heavily* reliant on items and keeping ahead of opponents. If she falls behind she'll just get CCed and instagibbed, or straight up 100-0 bursted, or nuked so low she cannot stay in the fight. Show me literally a single example of what you're talking about not in Iron 4.
: Most reworks are about making the target champion a bit more skilled, and forgiving for misses, and more rewarding for hits. Lower CD, lower mana cost, better mobility, more skillshots. Skillshots are life, skillshots are love.
See but this part: > and forgiving for misses, and more rewarding for hits. directly contradicts this bit: > Most reworks are about making the target champion a bit more skilled
: Average Champion level on X team. The team with higher level average will have the pushing lane if everything about the minions are even.
> [{quoted}](name=2Charmnot2Charm,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdRdo4GX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-07T16:40:32.130+0000) > > Average Champion level on X team. The team with higher level average will have the pushing lane if everything about the minions are even. This used to be the case from 5.21, adjust in iirc 5.23 on, but I believe it was reverted some time this season. EDIT: apparently the revert to this on PBE never made it live after all. Such a damn shame. On SR they have the bonus effects that: "Pushing Advantage Not available before 3:30. A team level advantage = the average level of your team minus the average level of the enemy team. The value can be decimal and is capped at 3. While your team has a level advantage, your minions deal bonus damage to enemy minions equal to 5% + 5% per turret advantage in their lane, all multiplied by your team's level advantage. Bonus damage = (5% + (5% × Turret advantage)) × Team level advantage Maximum bonus damage = (5% + (5% × 3)) × 3 = 60% While your team has a level advantage, your minions take flat reduced damage from enemy minions equal to 1 + 1 per turret advantage in that lane, with the turret advantage bonus multiplied by the team's level advantage. Damage reduction = 1 + (Level advantage × Turret advantage) Maximum damage reduction = 1 + (3 × 3) = 10 Nexus turrets do not count as lane turrets" Not to mention there are upgrades they get every 90 seconds, which though equal further exacerbate the buff this causes, as they will have higher and higher base stats to scale as time goes on.
Eedat (NA)
: Do you have a link?
Relevant section: > In TFT, you’re supposed to demote if you lose at 0 LP in any given division (barring a few rare exceptions) as a tradeoff for the lack of promotion series you see in other League ranked queues. Due to a bug, we weren't demoting players during their first couple games after promoting. From now on, you'll be demoted if you lose LP if you were at 0 LP when the game started. > Challenger/Grandmaster Demotion Protection (Also Affects Other Ranked Queues) > > For players in Challenger and Grandmaster, you’re supposed to demote into Masters if you are at 0 LP at the end of the day, and then demote back to Diamond if you lose at 0 LP in Master. However, when there aren't enough Masters or Grandmaster players, it results in a situation where Challenger players can't demote. Moving forward, when you lose LP while at 0 LP in GM or Challenger you'll immediately be demoted to Diamond 1. ***One last note—we're making this change across all ranked queues, not just TFT.*** [emphasis mine] Source: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/mzMOBQXp-teamfight-tactics-dev-update-ranked-changes
Eedat (NA)
: Promos exist to balance out demotion protection
Good thing they are removing that for all ranked queues and causing instant demotion at 0 LP if you lose*, according to recent patch notes. *They may only apply this to high Elo, but they have talked about applying it to every division.
Sirsir (NA)
: Any chance you're thinking of Kaisa? Xayah ult doesn't go over walls
You have 1.5 seconds of movement in which you can move around walls while being untargetable and essentially immune to damage. How does that not count as mobility?
: {{champion:498}} is not mobile
She has a MS steroid, and an untargetable dash that can go over walls. She's definitely mobile.
: The issue is actually getting up to 200 magic resist; aren't spirit visage and adaptive helm only 50 MR each? You'd need something like Locket, Visage, Adaptive Helm, Zzrot... 4 slots dedicated to magic resist
Adaptive + Stoneplate + base MR is roughly 190 MR for tanks. Add in Mercs and you're at 215.
: {{item:3071}} armor shred also goes before lethality, as in they lose 24% of their armor and then your 50 lethality is calculated in. 200 - 24% = 152 152-50 = 102....
Throw an LDR in, and that 200 armor becomes 152 after TBC, then 99 after LDR, then literally only a measely 49 after lethality, or less than 25% of the amount they started with. Even with all magic pen items, 200 MR becomes 120, then the flat pen removes 33, leaving you with 87, or nearly twice as much MR as the armor you have left after armor pen. Hmm. . . it's almost like its actually the armor pen and NOT the magic pen that's the issue here. Who would have fucking thought, in league of AD assassins and ADCs, its the physical attack damage that's beyond over tuned and no longer has any functional counters. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=0000000000010000000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-02T19:43:06.649+0000) > > Hmm, let's see, this season my top 10 champions are: > > {{champion:6}} > {{champion:82}} > {{champion:2}} > {{champion:420}} > {{champion:111}} > {{champion:78}} > {{champion:86}} > {{champion:12}} > {{champion:19}} > {{champion:32}} > > Last season I basically didn't play as it was an utter fucking dumpster fire. > > the season before that, and the last time I played ranked my champions were: > > {{champion:6}} > {{champion:3}} > {{champion:2}} > {{champion:19}} > {{champion:86}} > {{champion:89}} > {{champion:201}} > {{champion:111}} > {{champion:54}} > > My highest mastery champions are: > > {{champion:86}} > {{champion:6}} > {{champion:201}} > {{champion:2}} > {{champion:122}} > {{champion:420}} > {{champion:111}} > {{champion:89}} > {{champion:12}} > {{champion:83}} > > You really want to say that I don't play tanks? I mean, what do you even think you get out of blatantly lying and falsely assuming shit? It's already beyond clear you don't have any actual argument, and no substantiation for it either. > > The reason I've been playing TT is because SR is an utter shit show, and has been for going on 5 years now, the balance is worse than TT and ARAM which is really fucking saying something. At least TT has been inoculated from RIOT's shitty ass changes for the last 4 years as the last time they touched it was patch 5.11. If there was turret plating on TT I'd stop playing that too. you average 4 - 5 tanks per season, with very low play of them, normally your tanks seeing what i assume is 3 - 6 or maybe 3 - 10 games every season in ranked. get out lmao
I play three sub classes, juggernauts, divers and tanks, and the lowest playrate of tanks a season I have is fucking 42.8% playrate of tanks, when that same year I had only a 28.57% play rate on juggernauts, the class you're wrongly trying to state is all I play. In case you didn't know, as math is evidently far from your strong suit, 42.8 >> 28.57 > 28.53 (the percentage of diver games that season). Go back to season 6 when I was a support player for almost every game, and my most played pick is Janna, followed by Olaf, Garen, Vlad, Braum, Poppy, Alistar, Thresh, Leona, Amumu, and Sej. I love how you keep moving the goal posts and just making up crazy, demonstrably false claims and assertions. You literally have no clue what the fuck you're talking about, yet still running your mouth.
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=00000000000100000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-02T06:43:46.342+0000) > > Here's something to keep in mind. Void Staff needs over 100 MR to be efficient. No, it just needs both Sorc shoes and Morello (or Oblivion Orb), and about 350 AP to be extremely useful. Oh and CDR for spell rotations. What do mages get in such ease of access? All of the above with not having to deal with mana resourcing for shit anymore. % pen got changed to add base MR to the equation, so picking up void doesn't hurt anything, but instead allows you to counter any MR purchase that comes after it or before it. Theres no hard trade off now that itemization for mages has been pigonholed into a line that sees rarely any deviation.
Against base MR of the tankiest champion in the game, at level 18 just to inflate the MR as much as possible, Void Staff is only 72.12% gold efficient, essentially wasting over 700g on the item. Against said target, it lowers their MR by a mere 21.6. LDR against the tankiest champion in the game's base armor at level 18 is 120.29% gold efficient, worth an additional 590g beyond its cost, and in this instance is removing 45.5 armor by itself, more more than the equivalent of ALL the flat magic pen items put together, times 1.35. LDR is cost effective against 46% of the entire roster, or 67 entire champions even without them purchasing a single lick of armor, or getting the armor rune. There is literally no trade off, nor penalty for getting LDR. Void Staff is only worth while against significant MR investment. LDR is already beyond efficient against ***BASE FUCKING STATS*** the change from bonus % based pen to total % based pen was *vastly* more beneficial for armor pen than it was for magic pen, as people have up to 240.7% more base armor than magic resist. You do NOT seem to know what you're talking about, pretty much at all. Its fucking efficient against {{champion:17}}'s base armor for god's sake.
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=00000000000100000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-02T06:43:46.342+0000) > > First off buddy, check my profile, check my match history. If you think I'm a mage player just because I disagree with you by using facts about the items themselves, you're a fucking lost cause. > > I don't think I've played a single mage in the last 2-3 years except for in ARAM. I'm a juggernaut and tank player, who has been on the receiving end of both damage types and all the different forms of penetration, and %HP damage through all the phases of this game all the way back to pre-season 1. At no point in ***the entire fucking history of League of Legends has magic pen EVER been better than armor pen, or harder to deal with as a tank, bruiser, or juggernaut.*** Currently, armor pen ***is the strongest it has literally EVER been, with the most options and sources of it than have ever existed.*** > > If you've followed the changes recently, tank items also have been dumpstered, and in particular the resist amounts and raw HP they give have been trash-canned. from a 5 item tank build, they have lost 1500 HP, 80 armor and 50 MR just from the nerfs to their items. We've also gone from literally only 1 % armor pen item, to having 3, and a % armor reduction one, and 4 flat armor pen items, instead of literally just {{item:3142}}. Additionally, flat pen used to apply first, now it applies last, after the % reduction destroys your armor for everyone, then the % pen removes all your fucking armor so that the scraps left over get utterly annihilated by lethality, and you take true damage. You can legitimately take a 200 armor bruiser, and get their armor to LITERALLY FUCKING 0. This simply was NOT possible previously. Magic pen cannot come anywhere close to that. With full magic pen, 200 MR becomes 87. You essentially still have 44% of it. Not ***literally fucking NOTHING*** > > Here's something to keep in mind. Void Staff needs over 100 MR to be efficient. LDR needs 88. EVERY TANK IN THE GAME HAS MORE ***BASE*** ARMOR THAN LDR'S BREAK EVEN POINT. THEY DON'T EVEN NEED TO BUILD ANY ARMOR WHATSOEVER AND ITS EFFICIENT. The same CANNOT BE SAID FOR VOID STAFF. It requires an investment of 50+ MR, literally doubling the tankiest champs base MR at level 18 to START TO BECOME EFFICIENT. > > You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, and result to baseless and inane ad hominems to try to discredit others when you're asinine assumptions aren't even close to correct. I have every clue of what im talking about, actually. And from what ive seen you have only been playing juggernauts so sorry, but looks like its up to ELO to decide who knows more about the game. Listen, tanks lost armor and hp in the tank meta, the MR loss was small because surprise surprise theres only 6 - 7 (too lazy to look up exact number rn lol) tank MR items in the entire game, which yes, negatively affects bruisers but the only item you care about building in most of your builds would be spirit visage since you go juggernauts. Also, kid you play TT so why are you arguing with me. Mages arent good on that mode. What are you doing here arguing with me. What. Stop. Jeeessuuusss, i just wasted my goddamn time arguing with you over a gamemode getting removed in 2 months away GEEZ. Well, when you have a valid goddamn statement with valid proof im going to reply. Cya later TT boi
Hmm, let's see, this season my top 10 champions are: {{champion:6}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:32}} Last season I basically didn't play as it was an utter fucking dumpster fire. the season before that, and the last time I played ranked my champions were: {{champion:6}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:54}} My highest mastery champions are: {{champion:86}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:83}} You really want to say that I don't play tanks? I mean, what do you even think you get out of blatantly lying and falsely assuming shit? It's already beyond clear you don't have any actual argument, and no substantiation for it either. The reason I've been playing TT is because SR is an utter shit show, and has been for going on 5 years now, the balance is worse than TT and ARAM which is really fucking saying something. At least TT has been inoculated from RIOT's shitty ass changes for the last 4 years as the last time they touched it was patch 5.11. If there was turret plating on TT I'd stop playing that too.
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=000000000001000000020000,timestamp=2019-08-02T06:15:17.597+0000) > > LDR is cost effective at a mere 88 armor. Its literally the most efficient penetration item in the entire fucking game. against a measly 200 armor, it becomes one of the most slot ***and*** cost efficient items in the entire game. Against an actual armor building tank its worth 200%+ of its cost. Against an armor stacking Malphite or Rammus, it can reach over a motherfucking ***400% gold efficiency which literally no other item in the game can even approach*** Ok but have you ever considered MR items dont really exist outside of the few that are not really even that efficient in gold and value in the first place? Lord domiks gives 35% pen and 40 AD. Void staff gives 40% fucking pen with 70 AP for only 300 more gold. Why cant you mage players accept your champions are just too good right now. what the hell. Its just sad.
First off buddy, check my profile, check my match history. If you think I'm a mage player just because I disagree with you by using facts about the items themselves, you're a fucking lost cause. I don't think I've played a single mage in the last 2-3 years except for in ARAM. I'm a juggernaut and tank player, who has been on the receiving end of both damage types and all the different forms of penetration, and %HP damage through all the phases of this game all the way back to pre-season 1. At no point in ***the entire fucking history of League of Legends has magic pen EVER been better than armor pen, or harder to deal with as a tank, bruiser, or juggernaut.*** Currently, armor pen ***is the strongest it has literally EVER been, with the most options and sources of it than have ever existed.*** If you've followed the changes recently, tank items also have been dumpstered, and in particular the resist amounts and raw HP they give have been trash-canned. from a 5 item tank build, they have lost 1500 HP, 80 armor and 50 MR just from the nerfs to their items. We've also gone from literally only 1 % armor pen item, to having 3, and a % armor reduction one, and 4 flat armor pen items, instead of literally just {{item:3142}}. Additionally, flat pen used to apply first, now it applies last, after the % reduction destroys your armor for everyone, then the % pen removes all your fucking armor so that the scraps left over get utterly annihilated by lethality, and you take true damage. You can legitimately take a 200 armor bruiser, and get their armor to LITERALLY FUCKING 0. This simply was NOT possible previously. Magic pen cannot come anywhere close to that. With full magic pen, 200 MR becomes 87. You essentially still have 44% of it. Not ***literally fucking NOTHING*** Here's something to keep in mind. Void Staff needs over 100 MR to be efficient. LDR needs 88. EVERY TANK IN THE GAME HAS MORE ***BASE*** ARMOR THAN LDR'S BREAK EVEN POINT. THEY DON'T EVEN NEED TO BUILD ANY ARMOR WHATSOEVER AND ITS EFFICIENT. The same CANNOT BE SAID FOR VOID STAFF. It requires an investment of 50+ MR, literally doubling the tankiest champs base MR at level 18 to START TO BECOME EFFICIENT. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, and result to baseless and inane ad hominems to try to discredit others when you're asinine assumptions aren't even close to correct.
: > [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-01T18:05:11.806+0000) > > He forgot that you can build {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3142}} and nullify 1.24 x 1.35 + 57 of their armor. That means vs a 300 armor target, you take them down to 41 armor, effectively negating 5180 gold without any real drawbacks for going a tank-busting build. > > You still get 40% CDR. > > You still get all of your assassination tools. > > You still overkill squishies by an extreme amount. vs a 150 armor target, or basically barely more than just zhonya's, you negate...all of it. Lord domiks an extremely inefficient item that barely gets built unless you are extremely ahead as an assassin. Black cleaver needs to be stacked. 5 times. 5 abilities/auto attacks. So no black cleaver cant even be counted considering you need to uses your full combo just to stack the damn thing. Why are people posting such stupid things. Holy hell.
LDR is cost effective at a mere 88 armor. Its literally the most efficient penetration item in the entire fucking game. against a measly 200 armor, it becomes one of the most slot ***and*** cost efficient items in the entire game. Against an actual armor building tank its worth 200%+ of its cost. Against an armor stacking Malphite or Rammus, it can reach over a motherfucking ***400% gold efficiency which literally no other item in the game can even approach***
Wiented (EUNE)
: How do you want to make legacy server with modern champions anyway?
Not have them? Like, why is this even a question?
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PB4UAME

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